amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS BLOEMFONTEIN MR MMELESI Assault/Torture of detained political activists in police holding cells on Fountains Street, Bloem. https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54630&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/bloem/bloem5_2ndngo6.htm MR VISSER Visser on record. Allow me Mr Chairman, to apologise for the fact that the witness who gave evidence on Friday, Petrus Miningwa is not present this morning. I knew that one of my witnesses was writing examinations, the mistake I made was not realising that it was Mr Miningwa. He will be back here today by 12 o'clock Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, you may have made the mistake but someone else on your part did not, and came and spoke to me on Friday afternoon and explained to me that he was writing an examination this morning and requested whether you could continue with someone else and he could come back after the exam and I agreed to that. MR VISSER I was told Mr Chairman, and I just wanted to place it record, thank you Mr Chairman. May I call the witness Mmelesi, spelled: M - m - e - l - e - s - i. There is no affidavit of that witness before you Mr Chairman. MR MMELESI (sworn states) MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mmelesi. MR MMELESI Ja. MR VISSER Sorry Mr Chairman. Mr Mmelesi, what work do you do? MR MMELESI I'm working at the security branch, Sir. MR VISSER What is your rank? MR MMELESI I'm a sergeant. MR VISSER When did you join the South African Police? MR MMELESI 1981, on the 22nd of January. MR VISSER And when did you join the security branch? MR MMELESI I joined the security branch in 1985. MR VISSER And was that here in Bloemfontein? MR MMELESI That is correct. MR VISSER What section did you work in the security branch? MR MMELESI Investigation section, Sir. Under Mr Du Plooy. MR VISSER Who were the other members in that section of the security branch? MR MMELESI Mr Du Plooy, Lieutenant Terreblanche, Warrant Office Paul van den Berg, Sergeant Du Plesis, myself, Constable Kopi, Constable Mafisa. MR VISSER Do you know Mr Ngo? MR MMELESI The time I arrived here, I saw him at the security branch offices. MR VISSER And as far as your knowledge goes goes what was his position, his status, at that time in 1985? MR MMELESI I thought he was a member of the security branch but I learnt from others that he was a recruit. MR VISSER Did you ever work together with Mr Ngo? MR MMELESI No Sir, I haven't worked with him. MR VISSER You also know Mr Motsamai? MR MMELESI I know him very well. MR VISSER He was in fact a member of the security branch, was he not? MR MMELESI That is correct. MR VISSER And did you work with him? MR MMELESI No Sir. We were working all of us working at the security branch but we were working at various sections, I was not working with him in one section. MR VISSER In 1985 to 1986, can you give us a guesstimate of how many members worked in the security branch here in Bloemfontein? MR MMELESI It was investigation section and ...[intervention] MR VISSER I just want, I'm sorry, to interrupt you. I just want you to tell us about how many members in total worked in the security branch in Bloemfontein in 1985/86. If you can't remember, just say so. MR MMELESI We were many, I don't remember, I don't remember. MR VISSER Now, it has been alleged here by Mr Ngo that you participated in the incident which we have referred to in this case as the group of 19 people who were interrogated and detained here in Bloemfontein in 1986. Now if it were to be suggested that you did anything wrong, that you performed any illegal or unlawful act, what would you say about that? MR MMELESI I did not take part. The way I had if there was something wrong which I did in that time, I did not assault any person. MR VISSER Did you see anybody being assaulted in your presence? MR MMELESI No Sir, I did not see a person being assaulted in my presence. MR VISSER Did you interrogate some of the comrades? MR MMELESI That is correct. There were those I interrogated, I acted as an interpreter. MR VISSER Can you remember any of the persons today, that you interrogated at that time or that you interpreted while they were being interrogated at that time? MR MMELESI There were many, I don't remember their names. When I say there were many, some of them I started to see them now. I am not able to locate them to the interrogation during that incident. MR VISSER On how many days - can you remember on how many days you took part in the interrogation as an interpreter? MR MMELESI I'd say I took part in four incidents were I took part in the interrogation as an interpreter, I don't remember well. MR VISSER You say four incidents. Do you mean four occasions? MR MMELESI It is like this, Sir. When I say it's four occasions, at some days we'd do our normal work but at times when I was in the office I would help during the interrogation. MR VISSER I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Mr MMelesi, did you have any contact with Mr Ngo after he was transferred to Pretoria? MR MMELESI No Sir. MR DU PLESSIS No contact whatsoever. Thank you, no further questions Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR MMELESI We haven't met Sir. CHAIRPERSON By that you mean you didn't meet Ngo? MR MMELESI I haven't met Mr Ngo. I learnt that he was arrested and that he is in Grootvlei Prison. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mmelesi, what was the procedure that you followed during these interrogations of the group of 19 persons who were interrogated at the office of the security police? MR MMELESI The method we used in the interrogation we were asking them were they were going then they told us that they were skipping the country to Lesotho. Then we asked them about their contacts or contact, or who was their leader to skip the country. MR STANDER Were they prepared to give their co-operation throughout? MR MMELESI The way they answered the questions, some of them were prepared to co-operate. Even if some of them were not giving us the direct information we'll take one to give us the clear answers to the questions we asked. MR STANDER And if he or she did not want to give their co-operation what happened then? MR MMELESI We leave him or her. We take another one. CHAIRPERSON So you would just leave then, you wouldn't try to press them to give information, you'd just accept that they didn't want to tell you. Are you asking us to accept that? MR MMELESI No, we were not forcing a person to - the person should just tell us that when he or she was asked those questions we'd leave him and we'd take another one and maybe later we'd go back to that person. There's no way we forced those people. MR STANDER Now if you returned to the same person later and this person did not want to give his co-operation yet, what then? MR MMELESI I would not say is there after a long time. The way that person has been asked those questions, if you are not satisfied with those questions you'd leave that person to think well that he'd able to understand those questions, Not that he should be forced. MR STANDER If you've - once you've given him a good chance to think about it and you come back to that man, or to the women, and they still do not want to co-operate, what would happen then? MR MMELESI We'd continue with others. MR STANDER ...[inaudible] MR MMELESI No, we don't just leave that person like that. I explained that if he or she does not want to give us direct answers we'd take another one so that we'd give that person a chance think the time about the whole incident. CHAIRPERSON And what happened if after they had time to think they still didn't want to give you answers? MR MMELESI We'd go back to him or her again, we would take her to the interrogation room, then we'd continue with the questioning, then he would he would answer well the way the investigator or the interrogator wants. MR STANDER I do not understand this. Why would a person let's say that in two occasions this person does not want to co-operate, but for arguments sake at the third stage when he's asked again he co-operates. Can you explain this to us? Or is there something else that you did in order to force him to give you those answers? MR MMELESI We did not force a person to explain to us what happened. For the second time when we interrogate he would he would answer those questions well, not that we forced him or her. CHAIRPERSON I'm afraid I don't understand why somebody who has indicated that they do not want to answer questions, would suddenly decide to answer the questions well. MR MMELESI It will depend on how he is being interrogated. Let me explain this way. We'd ask you questions and then you don't answer the questions, later, if you don't understand, we'd call you for a second time, then we'd take another person. Then again you'd be asked questions and be told that the answers that we were waiting for for these questions were like this, not that we'd forced that person. MR STANDER I still do not understand and I do not think the Committee understands. What happened in the meantime to change that persons mind about answering the questions. Because why in the first place, would he not want to answer? And then on a later occasion when he is called in again then he answers to all your questions. MR MMELESI There's nothing we did to that person. I explained that if a person does not want to answer the questions, we did not force him or her or assault him, we'd leave her or him and take another person, then later would call him or her back without been assaulted, then he would answer those questions. MR STANDER The Chairman has also asked you and I've asked you for the third time. What led to the fact that this person now replied to your questions or can you not reply to that? MR MMELESI I explained Sir, that we did not force a person or maybe we did not assault that person so that he should answer those questions, it did not work like that. That person would explained us well with how its being assaulted. MR STANDER What is the reason for that, do you know or don't you? MR MMELESI No Sir, I did not know, but there was no person who would be able to explain, those people explained what happened. MR STANDER Do you think there's a possibility that such a person saw what had happened to the others and as a result of the fact that he saw what had happened to the others who did not co-operate who did not co-operate, that he then decided to give some answers? Is that not possibly what could have happened? MR MMELESI I want you to explain to me, to say, when you say maybe he saw what happened to other people in which way can you explain to me? MR STANDER What I am trying to say is that he saw how the others were assaulted because they did not want to co-operate and that is why at the end of the day, he then gave his or her answers. MR STANDER I explained Sir, that no person was assaulted in my presence or the one I saw being assaulted. Those people answered to those questions well without being forced. MR STANDER And did you see the rest of the group there that day as well? MR MMELESI You mean you mean in the office? Yes, I did. MR STANDER Was there anyone who gave you an indication as that they had been assaulted? MR MMELESI No, Sir. MR STANDER Have you see - did you see the full group there on another occasion? MR MMELESI Yes, I did the time when they were just about to be taken to where they were going to be detained. MR STANDER Do you regard frog jumps as part of abuse of the witnesses or don't you? MR MMELESI I did not see people doing frog jumps the way you - the ones you telling me about. MR STANDER Did you have any shock apparatus? MR MMELESI No Sir, we didn't have those things. MR STANDER And a black bag which was sometimes used to cover peoples eyes or their heads? MR MMELESI No Sir, I didn't see something like that. MR STANDER And the tyre? MR MMELESI I said that I did not see those kinds of assortments, I did not see them. MR STANDER Do you know a Oupa Makubalo? MR MMELESI Yes, I know him. MR STANDER Was he also part of the group that was there that had to be interrogated? MR MMELESI Oupa was present in that group. But where I took part, I did not take part in Oupa's interrogation. MR STANDER Were you involved when he had to be taken to a doctor? MR MMELESI If I remember, no. I dispute that. MR STANDER It doesn't sound as if you're being sure of the ...[indistinct] MR MMELESI I said I was not present then. MR STANDER Was he ever taken to a doctor? MR MMELESI I said I was not present and again I don't remember. MR STANDER ...[inaudible] MR MMELESI No, Sir. MR STANDER What was his condition the condition on the second or the third day after you'd arrested these people? MR MMELESI We did not detain this group. The time when I arrived with Sergeant Du Plessis in the office after lunch, I learnt there were people who were brought here who tried to skip the country and they were arrested in Ladybrand and they were brought to our offices. MR STANDER The question that I asked was: did you see Oupa Makubalo on the second or the third day after he was arrested, did you see him, again? MR MMELESI I explained that some days I was helping with the investigation and others days we were living out for our normal duty. Myself and Mr Du Plessis would leave the whole day and if I'm present I'd help there if it is necessary. But ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Could you tell us whether you helped on the second day and whether you helped with the interrogation on the third day after they'd been arrested. MR MMELESI That is why I said I don't remember later as whethere I did. At times, some days we'd leave but if I'm around I'd be able to help with the the interrogation. At times I'd be there, at times I'd not be there. As whether it was the second day or the third day, I do not remember. MR STANDER Did you see him again, Oupa Makubalo, after the first day? MR MMELESI I explained that I do not remember as to whether it is the second or the third day because usually would leave together with Mr Du Plessis. I'm not sure as to whether I was in the office or not. MR STANDER Did you not see him at all? That is the simple question. MR MMELESI I say I don't know as to whether the second day I was in the office or I was not in the office. MR STANDER I would like to put it to you Sir, that indeed after the second or third day you took Mr Oupa Makubalo to the doctor because of the fact that he had been assaulted to such an extent that his life was actually in danger at that stage. Do you deny that or not? MR MMESELI I dispute that. As I explained that on the first day I saw Oupa Makubalo in the office. On second day as whether I was in office or not and again on the third day I do not know as whether I'm in the office or not but I I saw him in the office. But its either on the second day or the third day I was in the office, I'm not sure. That's the way I have explained. CHAIRPERSON Have these records been made available? MR STANDER Mr Chair, I am doing my best to get hold of them but I have not been able to do so. I will see if I could do so soon and place this before the Commission. CHAIRPERSON If he was taken from the Fountain Street offices, one would expect documentary evidence to that effect to be available. It seems a little suprising that the, as far as one can gather, because it hasn't been available to us, that no records were kept at Fountain Street and who was taken there for interrogation, when they were sent away and matters of that nature. Police are usually fairly careful about these things, I raised this question last week about whether there was documentary evidence available and none appears to be forthcoming. Does this mean that the dockets and other documents no longer exists, if they have been done away with? MR STANDER Mr Chair I cannot answer to this. I will do my best by means of the hospital where he had been treated, to see whether any documentation is available. I would like to stat to you Mr Mmelesi, that you not only acted as a so called interpreter but that you actively participated in this interrogation of the persons and also the assault of on these persons. MR MMELESI I have answered. MR VISSER I'm sorry Mr Chairman, may I come in here? Would my learned friend please assist all of us by telling us who it is alleged that this witness assaulted because he hasn't put that. MR STANDER Just a moment Mr Chair. Mr Oliphant do you know him, the person who is known as Chine? MR MMELESI Yes, I know him. MR STANDER He also alleges that you assaulted him. MR MMELESI He's lying Sir, I did not assault him and I did not assault any person. MR STANDER Did you also participate in the interrogation of any of the women present there? MR MMELESI Yes, I took part in the interrogation, there may be two or three. As I explained that the base which I was in office, I took part. MR STANDER Am I correct if I also say that there were no female interrogators when the females or women where interrogated? Is that correct? MR MMELESI That is correct, Sir. Let me explain, Sir, the interrogation room was the person who the interrogator it might be a male and then myself and the person who has been interrogated. MR STANDER Was there a special interrogation room then? MR MMELESI No, there was the - there were no people in those offices who would use - in their offices as interrogation rooms as interrogation rooms, then that person would sit there, then I would sit on the other side, then the interrogator would sit on the other side. MR STANDER Please tell me, where you present when Oupa Makubalo at a later stage, was arrested and shots were fired in his direction? MR MMELESI No Sir, I was not present. MR STANDER Where you on duty on that day? MR MMELESI I was always on duty all the time but I did not take part in that incident. MR STANDER Did you know that he was arrested on the day and that they returned him to Fountain Street? MR MMELESI I did not know. MR STANDER Is it possible that you could have been with them and that you just can't remember this? MR MMELESI No Sir, I said I was not there. MR STANDER Sir, I would like to put it to you that you indeed were in the vehicle which went to arrest him when the shots were fired in his direction. MR MMELESI Sir, I said I was not present there. Understand well, I was not there. MR STANDER Do know who were all the people who were present? MR MMELESI I know nothing, I was not present. MR STANDER Did you see when he was brought in? MR MMELESI No Sir, I did not see him. MR STANDER Can you tell me where your office is in the security branch? MR MMELESI When you enter the 5th floor, it was first one on the left side. MR STANDER Did you office look out on the so called Violent Street? MR MMELESI The this thing of Violent Street suprises me because that is a passage which goes at the back like when Mr Erasmus - the direction of his - from the door you got the toilet and the toilets for females who are on the left and for male are on the right. Our offices are facing the direction which I'm looking and the passage go across. MR STANDER Why was it called this so called Violent Street? MR MMELESI No Sir, it was a sticker which was put on the wall which was written Violent Street. MR STANDER So the passage wasn't known as Violent Street? MR MMELESI Maybe there are people who call it that but I say the the poster was put there written Violent Street. The passage was long and it was on those offices in 5th floor. MR STANDER Because one after the other witness had referred to that passage on the 5th floor as so called Violent Street and some of the police officers who have testified here admitted that. Now I don't understand why you ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Just wait a minute. I understood the evidence we have heard, we have heard - I can't remember what policeman now, of a passage that his office is in and which then joins another passage which was the one he said was called Violent Street. Is that not the position? There's more than one passage on that floor? MR STANDER Mr Chairman, I gained the impression that there was only one passage but perhaps we could ascertain that I may be wrong. Could you explain to us the layout of the passages on the 5th floor? MR MMELESI You must listen very carefully Sir. This is a passage, it goes back and here where I'm pointing its a door, then it turns to the left to those two doors, then that is the toilet, then you turn on the left there's a kitchen. MR STANDER Which of these two passages which you told us about now was known as the so-called Violent Street? CHAIRPERSON I don't know perhaps your the best one to tell us Mr Stander, I gather the security police no longer occupy this. The building is there, who are occupies is now? MR STANDER Mr Chair I can't tell you, I don't know the answer to that question. As far as I know there are still members of the police force in there but I don't whom exactly but its not far away from here, its approximately a block away. CHAIRPERSON Wouldn't it be possible, rather than have this confusion and have witnesses trying to persuade, - trying to tell us, for us to adjourn at some stage and walk that block and see what the floor looks like? MR STANDER Yes Sir. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, if I may come in here, Visser on record. This very thought has occurred to us already last week and we have asked Colonel Erasmus to attempt to make arrangements so that we - we wanted to know first of all whether we'd have access to the building before we approached you with it. At, at this stage there is a problem with the 5th floor, apparently there's legislation declaring an off limits area to to the public. I'm not sure in what or some such, its got something to do with National Intelligence, Mr Chairman. We are attempting, I think Mr Chairman, I am speaking under correction, but we are attempting to obtain permission to enter the 5th floor, that's the one thing, but in any event, what we are attempting to do is to obtain floor plans of each and every floor and to give that at least to you. But we are working on getting us into the building there's just a problem with the 5th floor as I understand the position to be at the moment but we're working on that very issue Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON The 5th floor is really the only one we want to see, we don't want to get into the building as such but if we could do that perhaps cross-examination as to the details of the geography of the floor could stand over until we know whether we can see it ourselves or get a proper floor plan. MR STANDER Thank you Mr Chair. Before I step down from this aspect, let us then call this passage with the board Violent Street and ask the question whether your office actually faced on this passage. MR MMELESI: The door of the office we were occupying faced the passage and this passage proceeded ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER What did you call that passage? Did it have a name, for instance: Peace Street or whatever? MR MMELESI This passage did not have a name, Sir. The only thing that was there was a sticker put on the wall and I do not know who put that sticker there. I call it a passage, it did not have a name. The sticker was called Violent Street but that was not the name of that passage. CHAIRPERSON Was the sticker in your passage or did it point towards the other passage? MR MMELESI That is correct, Sir. ADV DE JAGER It can't be correct because I've asked you was the sticker in your passage or did it point towards the other passage? MR MMELESI Sir, I explained that there were two passages, there's a door, there's a passage going to the right and the other one going to the left. ADV DE JAGER The sticker, was it pointing to the passage going to the right? MR MMELESI The passage to the left when you were going to the kitchen. MR STANDER Did you ever enquire about this sticker on the door on the wall? MR MMELESI No Sir. I tried to ask what was happening with that sticker but no-one gave me a clear indication of why the sticker was put on the wall. All the members could see that, I do not know whether the sticker is still there or not. MR STANDER You didn't go to any trouble to remove it because according to your testimony it had no meaning whatsoever. Do I understand you correctly? MR MMELESI I do not know, Sir, but I just saw it as a sticker that was put on the wall. MR STANDER Could you have removed it yourself, had you so wished? MR MMELESI The problem was I did not know who was the person who put it there. And I did not take that into consideration. MR STANDER You also didn't go to any trouble to enquire about it? MR MMELESI That is correct. MR STANDER I would like to state it to you Sir, that that sticker had been placed on that wall because people were continuously assaulted and tortured in that passage and that is why it was known as Violent Street. Could you reply to that? MR MMELESI No, Sir. MR STANDER Do you deny it or don't you? MR MMELESI I dispute that, I never seen anyone assaulted in that passage. MR STANDER No further questions to the witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER MR MEMANI Mr Mmelesi, as of 6th of April 1986, was your floor on the 5th floor or was it on the 4th floor? MR MMELESI We were on the 5th floor, Sir. MR MEMANI I meant you office. MR MMELESI We were in the 5th floor. MR MEMANI And on that day you worked with Terreblanche and Du Plooy, didn't you? MR MMELESI When I arrived at the security branch I worked with those people you just mentioned. MR MEMANI But on the 6th of April 1996 ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Perhaps you could tell him what the 6th of April was. I can't remember what the 6th of April 1986 was. MR MEMANI This is the day when the 19 people were ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Well tell him. MR MEMANI I thought its common cause Mr Chair. And this is the day on which the 19 people were detained. Do you remember that now? MR MMELESI Sir, I do not remember when it comes to dates but I remember that there were people brought to the offices. MR MEMANI Now, on that day, when these people were detained, did you assist the officers on the 4th floor? MR MMELESI I helped in the investigation department to ask those people questions. MR MEMANI Where did you help the investigation department? MR MMESELI On the 4th floor, that is where the investigation was done, we were in the 5th floor. MR MEMANI And who - which white officer were you working with? MR MMESELI Its a long time Sir, I do not remember but the person I was working with very well was Sergeant Du Plessis but he was not involved in the interrogation section. MR MEMANI Now, I'm talking about this particular day. Who did you work with on that particular day? MR MMELESI Sir, I said I do not remember well because this happened long time ago. MR MEMANI How many people did you interrogate on that day? MR MMELESI On that day, i think two, if not four. MR MEMANI And who were the persons? MR MMELESI I do not remember them, Sir. MR MEMANI Did you get any information from these people? MR MMELESI The way the interrogator proceeded he was satisfied with the answers. MR MEMANI Was he satisfied with all of them as and when he started interrogating each of them? MR MMELESI On that day where I participated, he asked them questions and they explained to him well what happened, why they decided to leave, he was satisfied. I was an interpreter. MR MEMANI In short, all of them co-operated? None of them at any stage did not co-operate? MR MMELESI Where I took part, I said they satisfied him. No-one was stubborn, they all answered questions without being forced. MR MEMANI And they co-operated from the onset is what I'm putting you, why can't you say yes or no? MR MMELESI I said yes I've explained that if a person did not want to co-operate then but I said the time when I was there nobody was not co-operating, they answered those questions well. MR MEMANI You see, earlier on your evidence was that people were asked questions and those who did not co-operate was taken upstairs and then they would be called for the second time. MR VISSER I'm sorry, I have to object Mr Chairman, the questions which he answered, and I attempted to listen very carefully, were put to him on the hypothesis that if somebody refused to answer questions, what would you then do? And he said the answer which my learned friend has now given, he has not been asked by anybody until right now, whether the people did in fact co-operate. There's a difference, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON My recollection is he said he was asked what sort of [End of tape 1, side A - no follow on sound] I aske him who their leaders and contacts were, some were prepared to co-operate, others were not, we would just leave them. We would just leave them. Let me later go back to these people ...[intervention] MR BRINK That, with respect, is my note Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON I do think it's fair to say though, that his answers were all speculative always if, if, if. I don't think that he in that portion of evidence said that they did in fact do this, this is what they would have done. MR MEMANI My... MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is I think, what I tried to convey. MR MEMANI My understanding Mr Chair, was that the context in which the words if and would were used were not used in a speculative sense but they were used to explain what what would occur as what occurred in fact on that day. It was not only hypothesis. It was what did you do what would you do if people did not co-operate on that day? They were specific to what would happen on that day. MR VISSER Well Mr Chairman, I don't want to waste time. Let him put the question to the witness and let the witness field for himself. MR MEMANI In any event it has emerged that you told us that some people did not co-operate on that day and that is contrary to what you just put that none of them did not co-operate. MR MMELESI I did not say they were not co-operating. You asked me, saying: "If people did not answer questions what did they do"?, I answered and said: "Those who did not want to ask questions would just leave them and ask others. And later would bring them back and interrogate them and they would answer those questions well". MR MEMANI Now mister, - I'll leave the rest of the things for argument. The next that I wanted to ask you is where - in which office where you on that day? MR MMELESI We were on the 4th floor the time when we were interrogating these people. This thing happened a long time ago, I don't know whose office - I don't remember whose office was that. MR MEMANI And who was present with you? You say you don't recall that as well. MR MMELESI I did not - I don't remember as to whether whom I was assisting in the interrogation. MR MEMANI You don't recall who was with you, you don't recall in which office you were and you don't recall who you interrogated on that day? MR MMELESI I explained that it happened a long time ago, I don't remember. I would not say it's this person or that person because there were many. MR MEMANI You don't recall whether people co-operated immediately or not? MR MMELESI You asked me a question as to - the first person asked me as to whether those people were co-operating or not. I'd say were I was they were co-operating, where a took part as an interpreter, those people were co-operative. MR MEMANI I find it strange, in the light of the fact that you have forgotten so many things that you can recall that you arrived in the office at 1 o'clock. MR MMELESI That is so because on that day I was together with Mr Du Plessis. We were going to investigate then after lunch we came back to the office. And when we arrived there Mr Du Plessis told us that the ...[inaudible] MR MEMANI And what time did you leave work on that day? MR MMELESI We'd knock off at 4 o'clock. MR MEMANI Did you actually knock off at 4 o'clock on that day? MR MMELESI I say we knock off at 4 o'clock. On that day we took them to where they were supposed to be detained. MR MEMANI And the evidence was that the detainees were taken to the various police stations after 5. MR MMELESI I explained that on that day, usually we knock off at 4 o'clock but on that day we did not knock off at 4 o'clock. We were supposed to take those people where they were supposed to be detained. MR MEMANI But why didn't you say that a moment ago when I asked you whether - what time did you knock off, you said - why did you not then just say we knock off at 4 o'clock? MR MMELESI That is like that. I say usually we knock off at 4 o'clock but on that day we were supposed to - we did not go home, we were supposed to take those people to where they were supposed to be locked. CHAIRPERSON Counsel asked you specifically how do you remember you remember you arrived there at 1 o'clock, and you told us you'd been working with DuPlessis and when you arrived back after lunch you were told about this. Counsel then said what time did you knock off that day and you said 4 o'clock. MR MMELESI Let me clear it off. We usually knock off at 4 o'clock, but at on that day we did not knock off at 4 o'clock, we were supposed to take those people were they were detained. MR MEMANI Now, where did you take them? MR MMELESI We took them to Glen, if I remember well. MR MEMANI With whom did you go to Glen? MR MMELESI I don't remember because we were many, we took them with cars and Kombis. I don't know which Kombis because some of them were not more in use. MR MEMANI And you don't recall the other person who was present when you took the persons except yourself. MR MMELESI We went with Kopi, Mafisa and Lieutenant Terreblanche, Warrant Officer Swanapoel. I explained that with whom I was working during that time. MR MEMANI But the question Mr ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER The question is: "On that day, can you remember with whom did you - did you go with a Kombi yourself? Who was driving the Kombi? Where you guarding the detainees? What was your function in that Kombi or motor car or whatever you've been in? You yourself. MR MMELESI I said I did not - I don't remember as to who was driving and where was I sitting but what I know is that we took these people to where they were detained. MR MEMANI With whom were you? MR MMELESI I don't remember with whom I was within that group. MR MEMANI Thank you Mr Chair. Do you remember if Mr Motsamai was there? MR MMELESI Sir, I said we were many I do not remember as whether other people from various sections helped or not. MR MEMANI My instructions are that the only people you took prisoners were yourself, Kopi and Motsamai. ...[inaudible] can you because you can't remember? MR MMELESI I said its like that but I do not remember. The we were those people were many. MR MEMANI The detainees were many? MR MMELESI There were 19 all in all. I do not remember who was there on that day and who was not there on that day. MR MEMANI There were only three policemen, yourself, Kopi and Motsamai. MR MMELESI I said I do not remember whether other members from various sections helped to take these people to where they were supposed to be detained. I don't remember well. ADV DE JAGER And Mr Memanie, were they all travelling together in one vehicle, all 19 detainees and the three policemen? MR MEMANI My instructions are that it was not all 19 that were travelling in the same vehicle that Motsamai, Mmelesi and Kopi were. Now, Mr Mmelesi, for how long did you see Mr Ngo at security branch? MR MMELESI I don't remember, but I'd say it may be a month or two, I don't remember. MR MEMANI ...[inaudible] period, a lengthy period, longer than two months. MR MMELESI No it might not be more that two months. MR MEMANI And at that stage you believed that he was a member of the security branch? MR MMELESI The time when I arrived in the office he was there, I just took it that he was a member of the security branch but when I enquired they told be that he is a recruit. MR MEMANI And he worked there regularly. MR MMELESI Yes, he was working as if he's a permanent staff member, that is why I regarded him as a member. MR MEMANI And I want us to go back to the passage. I I got the impression that the 5th floor forms an L. Is that correct? MR MMELESI That is correct. As I've explained that this passage would go this way, and here is a door and then it would go towards the main entrance. JUDGE NGOEPE So you mean capital letter? MR MEMANI And Kopi described the area beyond the door as Violent Street. Did you hear him say that? MR MMELESI I heard but I said myself it is a sticker which has been put on the wall. It's a sticker, it's not the name of the passage which is Violent Street. MR MEMANI But it is suprising that detainees would be there occasionally knew that the police called that passage Violent Street and you who was working on that passage did not know that your colleagues referred to that passage as Violent Street. MR MMELESI I dispute that. I say when you enter the door you see the sticker first, then you'd just regard that that is a Violent Street but not that the name of that passage is Violent Street. JUDGE NGOEPE ...[inaudible] by one of your colleagues that there was a sticker there and on one occasion, a detainee when he was brought onto the 5th floor, because of that sticker referred to it as Violent Street and from that time onwards the passage was known as Violent Street - actually it was Mr Kopi. MR MMELESI I would not dispute what he said but I said I knew only that as a passage then I saw that sticker, then I was not present him that from today that passage would be known as Violent Street. JUDGE NGOEPE Is you evidence that a you have never at all yourself came to know that that passage was commonly referred to as Violent Street? MR MMELESI I explained that there was a sticker which has been put there written Violent Street. Nobody told me that you should know as from today that this passage is now known as Violent Street. JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry, sorry, I'm not asking you whether somebody did tell you that this is Violent Street. I'm only asking you, did you not come to know, just as other people came to know, that that passage was commonly known as Violent Street? You never knew that? MR MMELESI No Sir, I dispute that. That what was only there was a sticker written Violent Street. MR MEMANI Are you hearing today for the first time, that that passage for whatever reason was commonly known as Violent Street? MR MMELESI No. I don't dispute what you're saying, I - everybody would call that Violent Street because of the sticker which has been put there. JUDGE NGOEPE Oh, you do know that everybody called that passage Violent Street because of the sticker? You know that? MR MMELESI Not that I know but that I don't dispute. the reason is that when you open the door, the sticker has been put on the hall which has been written Violent Street. JUDGE NGOEPE You know you keep on repeating to every question I'm putting to you. You keep repeatedly coming back to stating that the sticker was put on the door. We know that, there's no problem about that. What I want to know from you is, you mister Mmelesi, at the time when you were working on the 5th floor, did you ever know that that passage, for whatever reason, was commonly referred to as Violent Street, or did you not know? Either you knew or you didn't know. MR MMELESI No Sir, I did not know. JUDGE NGOEPE Are you hearing, for the first time during this proceedings that that passage was commonly known as Violent Street? MR MMELESI No Sir, that is not so. I'm saying the people who entered there saw the sticker on the wall, you'd even see it there yourself. Nobody told me that you must know that this passage is called Violent Street. JUDGE NGOEPE You're going to realise that I'm going to expect you to answer my question, the way you want. I'm asking you, are you hearing for the first time during these proceedings that that passage was known as Violent Street? MR MMELESI No, I explained that it is not the first time. Everybody who entered there would see that that sticker and would call that passage Violent Street but nobody specifically said this is Violent Street, this is not my first time. CHAIRPERSON But why, have you said repeatedly to my brother: "I did not know it was commonly called Violent Street"? MR MMELESI Sir, I said nobody told me that it was Violent Street, it was a sticker that was put there. If you entered there you'd even tell yourself, oh well this is Violent Street by just seeing the sticker. JUDGE NGOEPE I'm going to put this question for the last time and if you don't answer it, I'm going to leave it. You knew that that passage, whether as a result of the sticker being put there or not, you knew, even at a time when you were still a member of the security branch, that that passage was commonly referred to as Violent Street. Did you know that? MR MMELESI Sir, people who entered that passage called it Violent Street. I'm saying I just saw that sticker there, It doesn't mean I knew it was Violent Street. Whether I called it Violent Street or not, the people called it Violent Street, I did not know it was Violent Street. JUDGE NGOEPE I told you it was for the last time I'm going to ask you that question I'm going to leave it there. MR MEMANI Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Mmelesi, the people that were taken to to Glen we've been told had injuries. Did you see that people had been injured, that you conveyed to Glen? MR MMELESI I said that there was no person who has been assaulted in my prescience. MR MEMANI I'm not saying to you that the persons were assaulted in your presence. I'm saying that when you conveyed them, the people had been injured already. MR MMELESI No Sir, I don't agree. MR MEMANI And, subject to correction, Oupa Makubalo had had lost his tooth as a result of being assaulted on that day. MR MMELESI No Sir, I did not hear that that somebody lost a tooth. MR MEMANI Those are my questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK Just one question, Mr Chairman. Did you ever see blood stains on the wall, one of the walls, or both walls of Violent Street? MR MMELESI No Sir, I did not see blood stains. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Just one question, Mr Chairman. Mr MMelesi, you were asked about what would happen if you asked a witness questions which he refused to answer. And you said that you would leave him and perhaps come back to him later. What was the purpose of the interrogation as far as you were concerned on that day? What did you want to do with the questions that the white person was asking them, what was the purpose? MR MMELESI They wanted to know as to where were those people going and their names and who were their contacts in Lesotho and that who was their leader. If I answer your question well. MR VISSER And if you got all that information, for example from a particular person, what would then have happened? MR MMELESI Then later WE would take that report to Mr Du Plooy. MR VISSER Chairman before - I have no further questions. But what has come to hand are the floor plans of the 4th and the 5th floor which I beg leave to hand up to you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER: These are the only two that I've got, the only two floors that I've got Mr Chairman. I've got a few copies here. CHAIRPERSON I don't think the other floors have been mentioned at all. Have they? MR VISSER: There are three copies Mr Chairman, and some for our learned friends as well. CHAIRPERSON We're obliged to you, Mr Visser, and to those instructing you. MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER The speakers mike is not activated. ADV DE JAGER Can you help us and tell us which passage was known as Violent Street? MR VISSER Mr Chairman, the evidence was that it's the passage that leads to the kitchen and if you look at the top of the page: 510 appears to have been the kitchen so that would mean - I haven't discussed this with my witnesses, I just got this to hand, that would mean that that would probably be the passage which is Violent Street. If one takes the top of the page as North for purposes of argument, it would be the South North/North South passage then. ADV DE JAGER Are you all at idem? Your witnesses, are they saying the same about this? MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I've just said I haven't discussed the plans with ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER But kindly find out Mr Visser, he's sitting next to you, so that we don't need to come back to this again. MR VISSER Colonel Erasmus explains to me Mr Chairman, that looking at the floor plan, the passage running from South to North, if North is the top of the page, was Violent Street. That is the one running in the direction of the kitchen marked 510 and apparently there's a staircase or whatever and their are toilets on the right hand top side which does not appear on your - only a part of which appears on the page. If you look down at the bottom, if I may say the Southern end of the passage on the left hand side, you see there's a circle and a cross, whatever that is supposed to indicate I don't know but it was in that vicinity that the sticker was attached to the wall. In other words on the left hand side as you walked into the passage, next to room 511, on the left hand wall that is where the sticker, according to Colonel Erasmus's recollection, was put on the wall. CHAIRPERSON It appears from the other plan that next to the circle and cross are the letters BR or BK, I think that it's BR. What that means, I don't know. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, we don't know at the moment, but we will try to establish whether there's any - whether we can find out what the letters are and what they stand for. ADV DE JAGER Mr Visser, on the plans, on the 5th floor you've got a partition in the foyer and on the 4th floor its an open space leading to the two passages, I don't know whether that was the position at the time or not. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, my instructions from Lieutenant Shaw and Colonel Erasmus is that, looking at the floor plan of the 5th floor, the marks made there represent a trellace, 'n traaliwerk, with a door, a security door and it was exactly at the time in 1986 there was a similar trellace on the 4th floor. So both the floors had at the same security entrance as it were, from the lift well. Shall we, perhaps, give this an exhibit number, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Is it necessary for just the floor plan, it's the only floor plan? MR VISSER Yes, we can just call it, just refer to it as the floor plan. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON While we've got this witness here, could we perhaps ask him to look at the plan and whether he understands the plan of the 5th floor. Do you understand this plan? MR MMELESI I'm still looking at the plan Sir. Yes, I see the plan, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Can you indicate on that plan, which is the office that you worked in? MR MMELESI If I'm not mistaken, they don't have numbers here, Sir. They are not numbered. If I'm not mistaken, it's office 409. CHAIRPERSON The 5th floor we are supposed to be looking at. MR MMELESI Pardon me? I think it's 5029, this is the number. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, that office is not marked with a number unfortunately it was marked: "stoor" beforehand and apparently later on certain walls were put up, he's referring ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Just office on the corner. MR VISSER Not the one on the corner, he's referring to 5029 as I understand it. If he could just perhaps with a pencil mark, mark it Mr Chairman, it might be the easiest. MR MMELESI Sir, I remember the first one, it was a store room, this is the office number. I think it was 22.49 if I'm not mistaken. It's 508. Sir, it's 508. CHAIRPERSON That is the office number written in the doorway? MR MMELESI Yes, the number is written on the door, it's 509. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Mmelesi. WITNESS EXCUSED EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. The next witness. The next witness is Mr Tsoametsi, which is spelt t - s - o - a - m - e - t - s - i. Mr Chairman, there is an affidavit by Mr Tsoametsi. I'm sorry, I've just lost the page, I'll give you the page reference. MR BRINK Bundle B, 29 to 31. MR VISSER My learned friend says bundle B, page forty one to forty three Mr Chairman and he's correct. My thanks to my learned friend. MR TSOAMETSI (sworn states) MR VISSER Mr Tsoametsi, is it correct that you are a retired warrant officer. MR TSOAMETSI That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And is it correct that you were a member of the security branch in Bloemfontein in 1986? MR TSOAMETSI That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER When did you join the police? MR TSOAMETSI On the 1st of December 1965. MR VISSER And when did you join the security branch in Bloemfontein? MR TSOAMETSI In 1973, in May. MR VISSER And which section did you work in the security branch? MR TSOAMETSI I was in the white section. MR VISSER And who was your commanding officer in that section? MR TSOAMETSI It was Rudie Crouse. MR VISSER Were there other members in that section apart from you and Rudie Crouse? MR TSOAMETSI Yes. MR VISSER Will you just mention the names of the other people. MR TSOAMETSI Warrant Officer Piet Naude, Warrant Officer Leon Kalitz and Sergeant Joseph Lichaba, L - i - c - h - a - b - a. MR VISSER Did you know Mr Ngo? MR TSOAMETSI That is correct. MR VISSER Can you tell the Committee when you remember today, since when you became aware of Mr Ngo and what did you think was he doing? MR TSOAMETSI If I remember very well, I say Ngo at our offices on the 5th floor. It was somewhere around 1983, but I could not speak to him because the rule was to look at the person and pass. But I remember one day it happened that I asked him who's son he was, where was he born, and he said to me he was Ngo from Pietersberg and I said: "Oh well, I know the place. I was once a student there, I went to school with Kaffir Ngo. And he said: "That was that is my uncle" and that was it. MR VISSER Are you aware that in 1986, Mr Ngo became a recruit constable, a student constable? MR TSOAMETSI Yes. MR VISSER In the period from March 1986 until July 1986, did you work with Mr Ngo while you were executing your duties in the white section? ADV DE JAGER Could you kindly repeat the period Mr Visser. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, it is from March 1986 to July 1986. MR TSOAMETSI I was not working with him. MR VISSER Were you working with Mr Motsamai? MR TSOAMETSI No. MR VISSER Can you remember today, in 1986 more or less, how many members were there in the security branch, in 1985/1986 here in Bloemfontein? MR TSOAMETSI It is difficult to remember, Sir. MR VISSER Right. Mr Tsoametsi, you filed an affidavit, I'm sorry, signed an affidavit is that correct? MR TSOAMETSI That is correct. MR VISSER Is that an affidavit in which you went to Pretoria to see Mr Wagner about? MR TSOAMETSI Yes. MR VISSER On that occasion, did Mr Motsamai accompany the group who went to Pretoria? MR TSOAMETSI Yes. MR VISSER Did anybody force you to go to Pretoria to see Mr Wagner? MR TSOAMETSI No. MR VISSER Did anybody at any stage prescribe to you, told you what to say or what to write in the affidavit? MR TSOAMETSI No. MR VISSER Do you confirm the truthfulness and correctness of the contents of your affidavit? MR TSOAMETSI Yes. MR VISSER In your affidavit you deny that you made yourself a party to any illegal or unlawful act, is that correct? MR TSOAMETSI That is correct. MR VISSER Now Mr Ngo, has alleged that you took part in the kidnapping and assault of Mr White Mohapi during 1986. First of all did you take part of Mr White Mohape? MR TSOAMETSI No. MR VISSER Did you assault him at any stage? MR TSOAMETSI No. MR VISSER It is alleged that orders were given by Lieutenant Shaw and Lieutenant Erasmus that you and Mamome had to go to the Bayswater police station to pick up White Mohape. Well, actually it's not the Bayswater Police Station, it is alleged that you had to the Hilton Police Station so that you could follow White Mohape after his release. Did that happen? MR TSOAMETSI Sir, that did not happen. Let me shortly explain. It was not possible for Shaw and Erasmus to give me instructions without first going to Rudi Crouse. MR VISSER And are you saying - did Mr Crouse give you any such instructions to follow White Mohapi and to kidnap him? MR TSOAMETSI No. We were working in the white section. MR VISSER And Mr Ngo went on to say - page 25 of the application, Mr Chairman, went on to say that you and Mamome kidnapped Mr White Mohape and that you radioed the information to Ngo, Motsamai and Mthyala, spelt M-t-y-h-a-l-e. Did that happen? MR MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I do not want to unnecessarily delay these proceedings. My recollection is that Mr Ngo was in the company of the white policeman. I think it was Cronje, the evidence was. MR VISSER Well then, my learned friend can put it to the witness Mr Chairman. I'm putting to the witness as I read the application. At any event that Mr White Mhopi was taken to an open field between Bloemfontein - Bloemspruit rather, Bloemspruit and Shannon, where he was beaten up. Do you know anything about that? MR TSOAMETSI I did not know that, Sir. MR VISSER You are ...[intervention] MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, my instructions are that Ngo was with Cronje, Mtyhala and Mamome in a vehicle. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR MEMANI No, earlier on I said my recollection was that Mr Ngo was with Cronje and I'm saying that Mr Ngo has corrected me and he says that he was with Cronje, Mtyhala and Mamome as well. MR VISSER Well Mr Chairman, I would like to see where it is at page 24 or 25 because a don't read the word Cronje there. I'm not saying that he didn't say that he didn't say so in his evidence, that's not at all what I'm saying. MR MEMANI I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, I put it wrongly again. It's Mtyhala, Cronje and the applicant and Mamome was not there. ADV DE JAGER Not the applicant, the witness. MR MEMAME The applicant, Mr Ngo, Mr Chair. ADV DE JAGER Repeat the names, who was in this car? MR MEMANI In the vehicle it was Mtyhala, Cronje, Ngo, in one vehicle. MR VISSER MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON But what he is putting is what appears in the application, he is reading from the application. He is not varying it he is reading the application which was made. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Perhaps you should read the application and so see that Mr Visser is correctly reading it. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON The application, pages 24 and 25. MR VISSER MR MEMANI But Mr Chairman, you will recall that there was evidence. The evidence that was lead specifically about the car, was that Cronje was Cronje was the person who was there. CHAIRPERSON He is not talking about the evidence that was lead Mr Memane, he is talking about the application and that is what he is putting to the witness. MR MEMANI But, Mr Chairman, ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON He is not alleged, not made any reference evidence that was led. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI But when he does so Mr Chairman he must put the entire version correctly. CHAIRPERSON He has put, as far as I know. What has he not put? MR MEMANI Maybe I made a mistake. What is it that being put, exactly, Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON What has he not put? What are you objecting to that you say he has not what appears in the application? MR MEMANI You see my understanding Mr Chairman, is that this kidnapping was was conducted by people, different people who were in different vehicles and at different times joined together - but were later jointed together at a later stage. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, am I wrong? Have you not just been reading what appears in the application? MR VISSER Nothing more and nothing less, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON The precise words. What is your objection Mr Memane? MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Carry on. MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman. The allegation is that yourself and Mr Mamome took Mr White Mohape to a veld between Bloemspruit and Shannon and that there they were joined by Motsamai, Mtyhala and Ngo, where all five of you beat up Mr White Mohape. Hammers and crowbars, now what do you say of that evidence? CHAIRPERSON Well, not ...[intervention] MR TSOAMETSI That is not true, it is a lie what Ngo is saying. I know nothing about hammers and crowbars and the kidnapping of Mohape. MR VISSER Mr Tsoametsi, last week you were requested, while you here in the Commission hall, to stand up so that the commission could look at you and I think you were described as stoutish person. How would you describe yourself, your body build? MR TSOAMETSI That is true, I am stout. MR VISSER And, since when did it happen that you became stout? Sorry, for how long has your body build been the same as it is today? MR TSOAMETSI MR VISSER Mr Tsoametsi, we can then go on to - page 27 Mr Chairman, of bundle A. It is suggested, alleged that at the time when the 19 comrades were brought to Bloemfontein, we know it was the 6th of April 1986, it is alleged that you and Warrant Officer Ramosoeu, - page 29, Mr Chairman, told Mtyhala and Ngo that they should drink two and a half litres of water to force the comrades to drink, two bottles each. Now, first of all, is that true? MR TSOAMETSI That is not true, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Did you have anything to do with the 19 comrades who were transferred from Ladybrand to Bloemfontein in 1986, Mr Tsoametsi? MR TSOAMETSI No, no contact at all. MR VISSER If anybody said that you had anything to do with their torture and assault, what would you say about that? MR TSOAMETSI That person would be lying, Sir. MR VISSER Reference to page 31, Mr Chairman. MR TSOAMETSI MR VISSER MR TSOAMETSI MR VISSER In short Mr Tsoametsi, if it is alleged by any of the applicants that you committed any illegal or unlawful act, what do you say about that. MR TSOAMETSI I would say he is lying. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Of what? MR VISSER Perhaps just one last question. Do you know that Mr Ngo left to Hamanskraal Police college in July of 1986? MR TSOAMETSI I not remember the month but I know he disappeared. MR VISSER After he left Bloemfontein, did you ever have anything else to do with him? MR TSOAMETSI No. MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON What about the house of Max Makuba? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON I was just referring to your affidavits. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR VISSER "On instructions of Colonel Coetzee, who at that time held the rank of major, Warrant Officer Tsoametsi, Sergeant Mamome, Constable Mtyhala and I, petrol bombed the house of Max Makubalo in Rocklands" CHAIRPERSON Very well, thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR TSOAMETSI (s.u.o.) MR VISSER ...[inaudible] this witness. Warrant Officer Tsoametsi, having worked in the so called white section of security branch, does that mean that you investigated or monitored white persons whom you regarded, I repeat, as activists? Just switch on your microphone before you speak. MR TSOAMETSI Repeat your question, Sir. MR VISSER MR TSOAMETSI Can you kindly repeat your question Sir. MR VISSER Yes. You told us that you worked the white section, Mr Tsoametsi. MR TSOAMETSI That is correct. MR VISSER Is that the section which investigated or monitored white people who were regarded as activists? MR TSOAMETSI That is correct. MR VISSER To your knowledge or recollection, did you ever investigate a person by the name of P.A. Venter? P.D. Venter I think it was Mr Chairman. MR TSOAMETSI No. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Thank you for pointing that out, Mr Chairman. As far as you know, did you have a file on that person in the white section, that you investigated? MR TSOAMETSI No. MR VISSER Do you know whether he was an informant of the security branch? MR TSOAMETSI I do not know. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER That would be emanently suitable Mr Chairman, thank you. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. retired? MR TSOAMETSI That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS When did you retire? MR TSOAMETSI 1993 in March. MR DU PLESSIS And up to that date did you work as a member of the security branch in Bloemfontein? MR TSOAMETSI That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS You testified that you became aware of the fact that Mr Ngo not was working at Bloemfontein security branch at one stage, is that correct? MR TSOAMETSI That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS Did you after that date have any contact with him again? MR TSOAMETSI I saw him at the court before the Judges, it was in respect of this murder of Venter. MR DU PLESSIS Did you have any other form of contact with him before that court case? MR TSOAMETSI I saw him when he was assaulted by the students. MR DU PLESSIS Am I correct if I say that this was while he was still working in Bloemfontein? MR TSOAMETSI He was still a student at that time, he was not yet in the police and that was when he was attacked by the school kids. MR DU PLESSIS I just want to put my question clearly. From the time that he left Bloemfontein, from that date until the date you saw him at court, did you see him or speak to him in the interim? MR TSOAMETSI No. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS FROM MR DU PLESSIS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Tsoametsi, where you also part of the group of security policemen who interrogated the 19 people who were arrested at Ladybrand. MR TSOAMETSI No, Sir. MR STANDER Where you at that stage part of the security police here in Bloemfontein? That is the sixth of March 1986? MR TSOAMETSI That is correct. MR STANDER Can you tell us why you say that you did not participate in the interrogation or were you not on duty that day or what is the position? MR TSOAMETSI I did not ask them whether they needed my help even though I would have been in a position to help them. MR STANDER Please tell me, was a person by the name of Terreblanche busy with the interrogation of these people on that day? MR TSOAMETSI I would not give evidence to that effect, I do not know. MR STANDER Do you know Mr Terreblanche? MR TSOAMETSI I know him. MR STANDER Is it true that he was a security policeman who was employed there? MR TSOAMETSI That is correct. MR STANDER MR TSOAMETSI I would not give evidence again Sir, to that effect. MR STANDER I do not understand you, what are you telling us? Is it not true that it was a large group of people who had to be interrogated at the same time? MR TSOAMETSI MR STANDER And you say that you had no part in this interrogation of this group of 19? MR TSOAMETSI Not at all, I did not take part at all. MR STANDER Later that day when the people were taken to the different police stations, did you participate in that at all? MR TSOAMETSI No. MR STANDER Did you see any of this group of people there that day? MR TSOAMETSI I do not remember you see, because they were still young at that time. They might have shifted from their appearances when they were still young. MR STANDER MR TSOAMETSI ADV DE JAGER ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER The speakers mike is not activated. ADV DE JAGER MR STANDER Can you remember, of the group of 19 who were interrogated on the sixth of March 1986 ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Are you sure of that date? MR STANDER MR TSOAMETSI What is your question, Sir? MR STANDER Can you remember that a group of 19 people were interrogated on the sixth of April 1986? MR TSOAMETSI I saw them, they were at the office. MR STANDER How many times did you see them there on that day? MR TSOAMETSI Sir, it is difficult because I was in and out of the building until late when we knock off. MR STANDER What time did you go off duty on that day? MR TSOAMETSI MR STANDER I hear what you are saying, but what time did you knock off? MR TSOAMETSI MR STANDER Did you also sometimes interpret for the white security police officers? MR TSOAMETSI That is correct. MR STANDER Did you also interpret for Mr Terreblanche at times? MR TSOAMETSI MR STANDER Never for Terreblanche? MR TSOAMETSI Not at all. MR STANDER Is it possible that you can recall each and every person for whom you interpreted after a period of approximately 13 years? MR TSOAMETSI No, Sir, those white people had their own black workers, I would not leave my white person and go to them. MR STANDER MR TSOAMETSI That is not true, no. MR STANDER Which procedure did you follow in the interrogation? Let us take the situation of a person who is brought in for interrogation and this person does not co-operate, what did you do then? MR TSOAMETSI Would detain him. MR STANDER If it was important information that you knew him to have and he still did not want to give it to you? MR TSOAMETSI We would put such a person in the cells. MR STANDER Was the information that you had to obtain not more important? Let us accept that it was information that was urgent for action that you had to take in future, then surely it would be of no use to put such a person in the cells. MR TSOAMETSI If the person refuses to speak we take such a person to the cells. MR STANDER If it is possible that this information was absolutely imperative, then surely it would be no use to put such a person in the cells. Which method would you follow then? MR TSOAMETSI MR STANDER Any other method that was used, apart from putting him in the cells? Is there any other method that you employed? MR TSOAMETSI MR STANDER MR TSOAMETSI MR STANDER Are these the only methods that you used? MR TSOAMETSI Yes. MR STANDER And the security police, did they in no other way than in this method the person was locked up until he co-operated? MR TSOAMETSI We locked him up, Sir. MR STANDER At any stage, was physical violence used? MR TSOAMETSI Not in my presence. MR STANDER But by other members of the security police? MR TSOAMETSI I told you Sir, I said not in my presence. MR STANDER MR TSOAMETSI No, not here in Bloemfontein. I was reading in the newspapers about such cases relating to security members what they did to people, killed people and we we only read these now lately because of the TRC, we did not know these things before. MR STANDER And at no stage ever that you know of, did any person or member of the security police in Bloemfontein, lift his hand to a person he was interrogating? MR TSOAMETSI No Sir, not between the time I started working here until I left. It might have been before my arrival or after my departure. MR STANDER I put it to you that it will be argued before this Commission that it is highly unlikely because it is obvious that when one needs or requires from a person information that is vital, then one will surely employ other methods in order to obtain this information. MR TSOAMETSI MR STANDER MR TSOAMETSI I do not know. MR STANDER Where was your office situated, was it on the 4th or the 5th floor? MR TSOAMETSI On the 5th floor. MR STANDER Did it also have an entrance which led onto Violent Street? MR TSOAMETSI That is correct. MR STANDER Can you tell us what your version is, how did Violent Street get its name? MR TSOAMETSI I remember one morning when we arrived we found the sticker already stuck on the wall, the sticker was written Violent Street. MR STANDER Did you enquire as to who stuck it on the wall? MR TSOAMETSI No, I did not do enquires. MR STANDER Is it so that from that that day onwards, the name of that passage was Violent Street? MR TSOAMETSI That is correct. MR STANDER And it was general knowledge amongst all the police officers who were employed there? MR TSOAMETSI That is correct. MR STANDER Do you think that it was a suitable name for that passage? MR TSOAMETSI No. MR STANDER Why not? MR TSOAMETSI Because that passage did not have any violence. MR STANDER MR TSOAMETSI My seniors even saw it, they could have removed it. MR STANDER Did you enjoy working in a passage which was known as Violent Street while you, according to your own information, had no part in any assaults or ever heard of anybody who had been assaulted? MR TSOAMETSI You see I did not really concern myself with that sticker, it did not worry me a single moment. MR STANDER You were working in that passage, surely its not nice to work in a passage which is known for its violence, while according to your own version you never followed that procedure in interrogations or even heard of anybody who did so. MR TSOAMETSI Mr Chairman, let me help you I was not working in the passage, I had an office but this is the passage I used to walk when I wanted access to my office. ADV DE JAGER Maybe like staying "Bloedstraat" for instance? MR STANDER ADV DE JAGER I said, it may be like staying in "Bloedstraat" for instance, Blood Street? MR STANDER I am grateful for that. I want to put it to you that Violent Street was named as such as a result of most of the assaults that took place, either occurred in that passage or in the offices leading off that passage. MR TSOAMETSI I did not know, I was a warrant officer. As a person I would never allow people to be assaulted in my presence. MR STANDER Tell me, is the office that you worked in was it sound proofed at any stage? MR TSOAMETSI What do you mean Sir, when you say it had sound absorbers? What does that mean? MR STANDER MR TSOAMETSI I would hear Sir, I would be in a position to hear. MR STANDER The day when you were working there, did you hear any screams? MR TSOAMETSI No, Sir. MR STANDER ...[inaudible] MR TSOAMETSI Yes, I would see then and I would even hear the sounds. MR STANDER You never employed or used that method to compel the detainees to talk, did you? MR TSOAMETSI No, we did not force them. MR STANDER Do you agree that to make somebody do physical exercises does not necessarily boil down to assault? MR TSOAMETSI MR STANDER And there is no method that it can be linked to the person who gave the instruction? MR TSOAMETSI No. MR STANDER You say it was a method of interrogation to make people do physical exercises? MR TSOAMETSI No. MR STANDER Would it help in persuading people to co-operate? MR TSOAMETSI No. Only the cell. MR STANDER Did you know Mr White Mohape? MR TSOAMETSI Yes Sir. MR STANDER Did he have a file? MR TSOAMETSI I believe so. MR STANDER Did you see when he was brought in time and again for questioning or interrogation? MR TSOAMETSI When I was present I would see when he was brought in. MR STANDER Let me rather leave that question. I want to put it to you Mr Tsoametsi, that on that day you did participate in the assault on the group of 19 persons. MR TSOAMETSI That is not so. MR STANDER I want to put it to you further that the reason why you are denying it today is because you know that you yourself, that you can possibly incriminate yourself because you have not applied for amnesty in this regard. MR TSOAMETSI MR STANDER I thank you, I have no more questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, I have been going through the bundle A, the evidence and it appears that it does not contain the evidence in chief of Mr Ngo in this aspect and I intend relying on the record in cross examining this witness. Are you looking at bundle A, Mr Chairman? You know if you look at the page 126, that is the end of Mr Venter and at page 128 ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Yes, 128 is the hearing on the 25th of May. MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON A2. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI It has happened quite often, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI I think, Mr Chairman, we can get what gets passed on to us. From time to time we get suprised to find that our learned friends are referring to documents which we have not been favoured ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON But this is not a document, this is a copy of the record. MR MEMANI Yes, Mr Chairman ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Well, Mr Chairman ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON I find that hard to believe. He knows that there was a record been kept of each day's proceedings. MR MEMANI What we have in the form of a record of proceedings Mr Chairman, is what is contained in bundle A. JUDGE NGOEPE I think the reason why there is, is it A2 or whatever, which is supposed to be part of the record contained in bundle A, I think there was something wrong with the record as compiled in Exhibit A, particularly towards its end or from the middle. And I think that is why that extra package was introduced. It may be that you like some of us, you remained with the imperfect bundle A, which is imperfect somewhere from the middle or towards the end. They could not coincide, I do recall, I may be wrong, but I do recall that Visser came with a copy which was not entirely in harmony with what we had been furnished, the transcript that we had been furnished, I think that could explain the inconsistency. CHAIRPERSON You say you want an adjournment until tomorrow morning? MR MEMANI A standing down of the witness, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MEMANI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Can you carry on with someone else Mr Visser. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, Mr Miningwa has arrived and his cross-examination can now be completed, with your leave. WITNESS EXCUSED MR MEMANI JUDGE NGOEPE MR MININGWA (s.u.o.) MR VISSER ...[inaudible] got a note Mr Chairman, was a reference to the house of the parents of Citi Mzuzwana. It was put to the witness you knew of both Siti and his parents home and the answer was no. And then was the adjournment. CHAIRPERSON Right, Mr Memani? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI MR MININGWA That is correct. MR MEMANI And that evidence was lead by Mr Motsamai spontaneously without connecting you to any incident, at page 640 of the record. MR MININGWA I know nothing of such an incident, Sir. ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, when I refer to the church, I usually am referring to the parish house. CHAIRPERSON Ja, I think it may create the wrong impression with the public and people hearing that a church has been bombed so perhaps we should stick to the correct description. MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. CHAIRPERSON Alright. MR VISSER MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, I was referring to the wrong part of my notes, Mr Chairman. The part which I wish to put to Mr Miningwa was that he was present when the clinic of Winnie Mandela was bombed, in fact the house. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER My note here in Exhibit P30 says page 158 of bundle A. CHAIRPERSON My bundle A finishes at page 148. MR VISSER Maybe a typing error, Mr Chairman, may I just check that? MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, Mr Miningwa is referred to at page 655 of the evidence. MR VISSER Yes, indeed. MR MEMANI This relates to the bombing of the clinic, Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER Kindly repeat the page again, page? MR MEMANI 655. Now Mr Miningwa, Mr Motsamai led evidence that you accompanied him to Brandfort when he went to bomb the clinic of Mrs Mandela. MR MININGWA I know nothing of that incident, Sir. MR MEMANI He told us that he was with you and Mamome. MR MININGWA I know nothing of that incident. MR MEMANI And he also told us that you were supposed to keep watch on any people who might approach the scene. MR MININGWA I know nothing Sir, about that incident. MR MEMANI He also told us that when there was an explosion he saw you nearby and you were scared. MR MININGWA I know nothing of this incident. MR MEMANI Now Mr Miningwa, when you heard that Mr Motsamai was implicating you in this matter, what steps did you take to gather evidence that could escalpate you? MR MININGWA What I can tell you about this is that I heard that such an incident took place, a house or a clinic of Winnie was burnt, not that I took part. I know nothing and it was not necessary therefor to gather evidence to come and convince that I did not do any thing. MR MEMANI MR MININGWA That is correct. MR MEMANI MR MININGWA MR MEMANI Mr Miningwa, my experience with people who are falsely implicating others is that they are usually minimise their participation in an incident, and here Mr Motsamai attributes himself an active role and yours is relatively minor and somewhat passive. MR MININGWA I am suprised Sir, that my name is included, I was not working with Motsamai. The people he was working with, even the white men he was working with I do not see around here. He mentioned to me and I was far away from him, this is really suprising. MR MEMANI Do you, by any chance recall any incident where you were in a Kombi with Morakile and Mtyhala? MR MININGWA MR MEMANI Now Mr Miningwa, I may have asked you the question, pardon me if I have, were you present on the occasion when Motsamai and others went to Pretoria to consult with an attorney? MR MININGWA I was not there, Sir. MR MEMANI And did you give a full statement on the day when you went to consult? MR MININGWA About the incident that I saw on that page where it is alleged that I took part, I gave evidence, full evidence. Some of them that might have cropped up there after, I do not know but those who were mentioned, and I saw them on the paper, I gave evidence to that effect. MR MEMANI Now, at the time you went to consult, you must have become aware that it was alleged that you were present in 19 pupils were interrogated and assaulted at Bloemfontein Fountains. MR MININGWA If I remember well, I heard when we were sitting at the Education Center where Oupa Makubalo said I was present but on the paper I did not see them. He said on that day I was on the 5th, 4th floor and I quoted him. It does not appear on the papers. MR MEMANI Did you approach your attorneys? MR MININGWA MR MEMANI I just want to make sure if Ngo does not refer to you in his list. CHAIRPERSON Page 30, person number eleven. MR MEMANI Yes. Now your name is referred to on page 30 of bundle A as being one of the people who were present when Oupa Makubalo, Baba Kuzela, Minas and others were tortured at Fountains. MR MININGWA MR MEMANI But Mr Miningwa, you must have seen your attorneys and they must have put it to you that you have been implicated by Ngo as a person was present during the torture which took place on the 6th of April 1986 at Fountains. MR MININGWA Unfortunately Sir, I did not know, I only know of two allegations. The others I heard when the applicants were testifying as I am doing now. MR MEMANI Did you at any stage tell your legal representatives what your version was going to be in this hearing? MR MININGWA No. MR MEMANI Did you at any stage tell your legal representatives what your version was going to be at these hearings? MR MININGWA MR MEMANI MR MININGWA MR MEMANI MR VISSER MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, these allegations are contained in the application in its original form before Mr Ngo testified. MR VISSER You will recall that on the first occasion, when we arrived here Mr Chairman, there was only one incident that he had applied for amnesty for and that was murder, robbery and the illegal possession of a firearm with regard to the Venter murder. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, the legal representatives of the people who are objecting might have raised the legal argument about whether or not the rest of the incidents formed part of the application but the factual allegations were contained in both documents that were submitted on behalf of Mr Ngo. So these allegations were already known to Mr Visser and Mr Wagner. ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI My understanding is that a lawyer whose faced with such a situation prepares all the facts as well, Mr Motsamai was already making the allegations. He did not make the allegations against - as far as Mr Venter only is concerned. Throughout he spoke of the rest of the incidents which are contained again in the second, what we call the second application. JUDGE NGOEPE MR VISSER You will see at page 100 of bundle D, you will find the affidavit of Mr Miningwa. And he deals here in paragraph 2.2, were he says: "Specifically I took note of certain allegations which implicated me". then he goes to over to ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Yes, absolutely. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MEMANI But that surely Mr Chairman, would have occured after Motsomi, after affidavits relating to Motsomi were filed. When we first came here in May, or in March, the only person before the Committee was Ngo, Motsamai came in later and there was no proliferation at that stage. CHAIRPERSON No, the point Mr Visser makes is that when they came here first it was first it was to oppose the application in respect of Venter, the murder of Mr Venter. MR MEMANI What was raised was something amounting to a point in limine. His name was mentioned in the application. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Will you reply to that? MR MEMANI "Members of the security branch who were present who organised, were organised by Kenneth Coetzee and Colonel Stephenson to beat up and torture with number eleven Miningwa" MR VISSER And I would challenge my learned friend to tell us where he is implicated. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI As the chair pleases. MR MININGWA MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON ...[indaudible] INTERPRETER The interpreter cannot hear the speaker. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI If I may take instructions, Mr Chairman. MR MEMANI MR MIMINGWA I know him very well, I know him very well. MR MEMANI MR MIMINGWA That is correct. MR MEMANI And his house later got bombed, isn't it? MR MIMINGWA I received such a report then I went verify, then I found it to be that the big window was broken and that curtains seemed to be burned. MR MEMANI Now, Mr Motsamai has told us that you participated in that petrol bombing. MR MIMINGWA MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Now, can we get clarity now, can we get certainty about your answer. Mr Motsamsai told us that you were present when Citi Mzuzwana's parental home was petrol bombed. MR MIMINGWA MR MEMANI Subject to correction, on Friday you told us that ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR MIMINGWA MR MEMANI MR MIMINGWA MR MEMANI What was the reason why you were sent to go and have a look at the house? MR MIMINGWA MR MEMANI And I was putting it to you that my recollection is that you said your superior sent you to go and have a look because you were working with Citi, Citi was in your profile. MR MIMINGWA I was not working with Citi, you speak as if he was my colleague. Because he was an activist in the trade unions, I was working - he was my suspect. MR MEMANI I menat to say ...[Sotho - no translation] it's unfortunate that it came in a different way in Sotho to you. CHAIRPERSON You said he was working with Citi. MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. Now, you said that your superior sent you because you were working about Citi, maybe you should use that word. MR VISSER MR MEMANI MR VISSER MR MEMANI And you told us that your superior told you to go and have a look at the house because you were working about Citi, Citi was one of the persons you were working about, you were investigating or whatever. MR VISSER I object. This witness did not say so Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Well the indication I got was that he certainty was investigating him. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Did you hear the question? MR MIMINGWA CHAIRPERSON Alright, let's start again, Citi, you have told us was one of the trade unionists and activists in whom the security branch were obviously interested, is that not so? MR MIMINGWA Those are my words. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and for that reason your superior told you to go and verify whether this information you had received from an informer was true. MR MIMINGWA That is correct. MR MEMANI MR MIMINGWA MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON My note is that he said he did not know. MR MEMANI Oh, I beg your pardon Mr Chair. MR MIMINGWA CHAIRPERSON Were you present when their house was petrol-bombed? MR MIMINGWA MR MEMANI MR MIMINGWA MR MEMANI My instructions are that the matter was referred to CID. CHAIRPERSON He never said he investigated it, he went to the place and he said he saw the big window was broken and it looked as if the curtain had been burnt. MR MEMANI May I proceed Mr Chair? And that did not go there because you were investigating Mzuzwana as such, because it was known that security branch had done it. MR MIMINGWA MR MEMANI MR MIMINGWA They were there, they were not stored, they were there. MR MEMANI MR MIMINGWA MR MEMANI MR MIMINGWA That is correct. MR MEMANI MR MIMINGWA MR MEMANI He also mentions the burning of his parental house. MR MIMINGWA That is correct. As you say, I learnt that for the first time. MR MEMANI And he says he did that during the course of his duties as a member of the security branch. MR MIMINGWA I learnt that. MR MEMANI And did you not know anything about the bombing of the house of the the parental home of Citi Mzuzwana? MR MIMINGWA I know nothing about that. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON And how long ago Mr Memani, was it when you said this is my last question? MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. I did not hear him to say that he did not know ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR MIMINGWA That is correct. MR MEMANI I thought at that stage, Mr Chairman, there was some problem with the interpretation, there was keeping and storing and so on and that that is why I stopped using the word: "keep" and I used the word "had". If Mr Chairman, you could allow me to ask the question? CHAIRPERSON Carry on. JUDGE NGOEPE I think Mr Memani, what do you expect him to find in the file, what must he go and look for in the file? CHAIRPERSON Mr Chairman, I would expect him to go for instance and look the file and say there was no such file for instance, because he says he did not know anything about a file kept by the Mzuzwana's. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MEMANI As the chair pleases, I will leave the matter there. I have no further questions Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI MR VISSER No re-examinations Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER Would this be a convenient time to adjourn for the luncheon Mr Chairman? COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR VISSER I call the next witness, Mr Mtyhala. It is spelt m - t - y - h - a - l - a. There is an affidavit of this gentleman before you in bundle B at page 32. Mr Mtyhala just switch on the microphone in front of you please. Are you Reginald Mxolisi, spelt M-x-o-l-i-s-i Mtyhala - M-t-y-h-a-l-a? REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA (sworn states) MR MTYHALA That is correct. MR VISSER Are you a policeman? MR MTYHALA That is correct. MR VISSER What is your rank? MR MTYHALA Sergeant, Sir. MR VISSER Did you become aware that certain allegations were made against you? MR MTYHALA That is correct. MR VISSER And did you at one point in time go to Pretoria to see a lawyer? MR MTYHALA Yes I did go to Pretoria. MR VISSER Was Mr Motsamai a member of the group of persons that went to Pretoria? MR MTYHALA That is correct, we went with him. MR VISSER Did you sign an affidavit? MR MTYHALA That is correct. MR VISSER Is that the document before you? MR MTYHALA Yes, this is the document Sir. MR VISSER Do you confirm the truthfulness and the correctness of the contents thereof? MR MTYHALA That is correct, Sir. MR VISSER Did anybody prescribe to you what should be in your affidavit? MR MTYHALA Well I learned when I had been explained about these allegations of what was happening. MR VISSER Let me ask you this way, is there anything in this affidavit which is not correct or truthful? MR MTYHALA All those things which happened here are those which I saw and then those allegations are not true. MR VISSER When did you join the South African Police? MR MTYHALA On the 15th of March 1982. MR VISSER And when did you become a member of the security branch in Bloemfontein? MR MTYHALA I came here in 1985 in June. MR VISSER June '85. Which section did you work? MR MTYHALA I was working under church section. MR VISSER And who was your commanding officer? MR MTYHALA My commanding officer was Attie Coetzee. MR VISSER Who were the other members of the security branch in the church section? MR MTYHALA I was together with Coetzee, Shaw, Erasmus, L.D. Koch, P.A.C Koch, Cronje, N. Killian, Mamome, Motsamai and myself. MR VISSER I think you went a little bit quickly, can you just perhaps repeat it? It was Coetzee, Shaw, Erasmus, Killian, and then you said Koch twice, were there two Kochs? MR MTYHALA Yes there are two, it's L.D. Gogh and P.A.C. Gogh. MR VISSER Alright. Killian, Mamome and Motsomai, are those all the members of that section? MR MTYHALA That is correct. I forgot about Mr Ramosoeu. MR VISSER Ramosoeu? MR MTYHALA That is correct. MR VISSER R - a - m - o - s - o - e - u, Mr Chairman. MR MTYHALA Yes, it is written that way. MR VISSER In 1985/86 more or less how many members in total were there attached to the security branch here in Bloemfontein? MR MTYHALA Approximately 60 to 70 or above. MR VISSER As far as the allegations against you are concerned, that you acted unlawfully or illegally, what do you say about that? MR MTYHALA MR VISSER Did you take part in the kidnapping and assault of Mr White Mohape? MR MTYHALA MR VISSER Did you take part in a petrol bomb attack on the house of Mr Max Makubalo? MR MTYHALA MR VISSER Did you attack ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR VISSER Did you have anything to do with the attack on the parental home of Mr Citi Mzuzwana? MR MTYHALA MR VISSER Or his own home? MR MTYHALA Not at all Sir. MR VISSER Do you know anything and did you take part in the attack on the clinic of Mrs Winnie Mandela? MR MTYHALA MR VISSER Did you participate in an attack on the vehicle of Mr Jannie Mohape? MR MTYHALA No, Sir. MR VISSER Or the burning of the minibus of Mr Elijah Mohape? MR MTYHALA MR VISSER Mr Ngo gave evidence regarding a UDF activist called JJ or Papie, whom he says was murdered in 1986. Do you know anything about that? MR MTYHALA MR VISSER Now, were you present - am I going too fast, Mr Chairman? Were you present when Oupa Makubalo was arrested? MR MTYHALA No Sir, I was not present. I went to Smithfield, then I learnt later that he has been arrested. MR VISSER MR MTYHALA MR VISSER And that person, the informer, was Mr Khoze, is that correct? MR MTYHALA That is correct. MR VISSER In 1986 there was a group of 19 persons who were transferred from Ladybrand to Bloemfontein and who were interrogated here in Bloemfontein. Did you have anything to do with those 19 detainees? MR MTYHALA I only saw those people in the offices. When I enquired, I learned that they were arrested because they tried to skip the country. I did have a role because I was not in that section, I was in the church section. MR VISSER It is also correct that at one stage or another you took some of those people to Glen Police Station? MR MTYHALA Yes, I helped because they did not have enough people to help the drivers to take them to the police station so I did take part in the transfer of those people to Glen Police Station. MR VISSER Can you remember on what ground they were detained at Glen Police Station? MR MTYHALA If I remember, I remember that they were arrested because they tried to skip the country and that was illegal. MR VISSER But when you entered them in the occurrence book - let me ask you, were these people that you took to Glen, were their names entered into whatever the relevant book is in Glen Police Station? MR MTYHALA Yes, that is correct. Like any other person who has been arrested, their names were entered in the relevant books. MR VISSER MR MTYHALA It is because they were trying to skip the country when they were arrested by the soldiers. MR VISSER Alright. It was suggested that you were told by Tsoametsi, T-s-o-a-m-e-t-s-i and Ramosoeu, R-a-m-a-s-o-e-u, that you and Ngo should bring water and that you should force the comrades to drink two bottles of water each. Is there any truth in that? MR MTYHALA That is not true, there was no such command to such kind of a thing. MR VISSER And that you participated in forcing those arrested persons to do frog jumps, push-ups and high jump exercises? MR MTYHALA MR VISSER MR MTYHALA I did not take part and again I did not see any person assaulting those people in my presence. MR VISSER Lastly, it has been suggested that you also took part in the beating up and torturing of a large group of comrades which was arrested and taken to Botshabelo Police Station. What do you say of that? MR MTYHALA That is not true, I did not even go to Botshabelo. I was not even working in Botshabelo. MR VISSER You were also implicated by Mr Motsamai in an attack or a petrol bomb attack on a house belonging to Nicos. Is that true? MR MTYHALA That is a lie. I did not take part in that attack. MR VISSER And at page 147 of the same bundle, paragraph 10, it is alleged that you participated in the petrol bomb attack on the house of a teacher called Bolosha - B-o-l-s-h-a. MR MTYHALA MR VISSER A petrol bomb attack on the parish house in Botshabelo, did you have anything to do with that if that happened? MR MTYHALA No, I did not take part in that incident. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. Did Mr Ngo at a certain stage leave Bloemfontein? According to your knowledge, was he transferred or did he move out of Bloemfontein? MR MTYHALA I knew only after he has left that he went to Hammanskraal Police Training College, then I learnt that he was somewhere in Mamelodi. MR DU PLESSIS Okay, after he had moved out of Bloemfontein, did you see him again? MR MTYHALA Yes, I saw him when he was in Supreme Court about the murder of Mr Venter. MR DU PLESSIS Okay, from the time of leaving Bloemfontein and when you saw him in court again did you ever see him in that period? MR MTYHALA No, Sir, there was nowhere where I saw him. MR DU PLESSIS Did you speak to him over the phone or otherwise? MR MTYHALA No Sir, there's nowhere where I talked with him. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chair, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER MR MTYHALA No, that is just an allegation, I did not do that. MR STANDER A role which you specifically played consisted of you having the women in particular drink water. thus to intimidate them in order to gain their co-operation. What is your reaction to this? MR MTYHALA MR STANDER I also wish to state to you that the reason why you deny this is because of the fact that you have not applied for amnesty and that is why today you are forced to deny this. MR MTYHALA MR STANDER No further questions, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI Mr Mtyhala, my instructions are that you and Ngo were very close whilst you where stationed here in Bloemfontein, that you used to drink together at times. MR MTYHALA MR MEMANI And were you otherwise close with him at work? MR MTYHALA MR MEMANI And did he on occasion sleep at your place? MR MTYHALA No, he never slept at my place. MR MEMANI MR MTYHALA No, I did not forget, that is a lie. MR MEMANI Now, and you worked - do you agree with him that you worked with him at black section under Shaw and Coetzee? MR MTYHALA I already said that we reported to Coetzee and the second in charge was Coetzee in that section. My work was the churches section. The black section was separate from the church section. MR MEMANI MR MTYHALA No Sir, there is nothing. MR MEMANI And there were no feelings between yourself and Mr Ngo? MR MTYHALA MR MEMANI Now, you do not have any ill feelings against Mr Motsamai, do you? MR MTYHALA I have no problem with Mr Motsamai because I regarded him as my friend and my brother. MR MEMANI And he also regarded you as a friend and a brother? MR MTYHALA MR MEMANI Those are my questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER MR LITSEHO [sworn states] MR VISSER Bundle B, page 96 Mr Chairman. Mr Litseho, are you a member of the South African Police? MR LITSEHO MR VISSER With what rank did you go on pension? MR LITSEHO I was a sergeant. MR VISSER Do you see the document now placed before you, is that an affidavit which you signed? MR LITSEHO That is correct. MR VISSER Do you confirm the truthfulness and the correctness of what is stated in that affidavit? MR LITSEHO Yes. MR VISSER When did you join the South African Police? MR LITSEHO It was in 1975. MR VISSER Do you remember the month? MR LITSEHO It was in April, the 14th of April 1975. MR VISSER When did you join the security branch here in Bloemfontein? MR LITSEHO I joined them in 1987. It was in January, January of 1987. MR VISSER Until January of 1987, where were you stationed? MR LITSEHO MR VISSER I sorry. I want to know, before January of 1987, where were you stationed? MR LITSEHO I was stationed at the National Intelligence Service and I came to Batu for 6 months in 1986. MR VISSER When you came to the security branch, in January 1987, in which section did you work? MR VISSER ...[inaudible] who the other members were who worked in that section? MR LITSEHO MR VISSER Is that spelt: R-a-m-o-s-o-e-u? Yes? MR LITSEHO MR MEMANI The previous witness? MR LITSEHO That is correct. And it was myself. MR VISSER Was Mr Motsamai a member of that team? MR LITSEHO No, he was working under investigation, the investigation of the detainees. MR VISSER Alright. Can you remember how many members in total there were at the security branch in 1987? MR LITSEHO I do not remember. MR VISSER Mr Motsamai has made application for amnesty in regard to an attack on a house of a certain Bolosha. Page 147, Mr Chairman, item 10. And he says that you were one of the people who participated in that attack. What do you say about that? MR LITSEHO I do not agree with that Sir, at all. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chair, Mr Litseho, do you know Constable Ngo? MR LITSEHO I do not know him at all, I saw him at Bayswater at the Truth Commission. MR STANDER No further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR STANDER I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI Mr Litseho, you told us that Mr Mtyhala was removed from black section to churches. My instructions are that he was not removed from black section but just assigned to churches within black section. MR LITSEHO That is not so. According to my knowledge, the churches fell under union sections. I think I worked with Mtyhala for about two months and he was transferred. MR MEMANI MR LITSEHO That is correct. MR MEMANI MR LITSEHO I did not apply because I know my hands are clean, clean. MR MEMANI Yes. And did you have any differences with Mr Motsamai? MR LITSEHO Not at all Sir. MR MEMANI Now, those are my questions, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR VISSER No thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON ....[inaudible] MR VISSER There is an affidavit of this gentleman in your bundle B at page 102. MR MORAKILE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Morakile, are you still attached to the South African Police Service? MR MORAKILE That is correct. MR VISSER In what section are you working now? MR MORAKILE I am working - I am doing special investigation within the corruption section. MR VISSER And what is your rank? MR MORAKILE MR VISSER MR VISSER Are you being shown a document which professes to be an affidavit signed by yourself? MR MORAKILE Yes. MR VISSER Did you in fact sign that document? MR MORAKILE That is correct MR VISSER Do you confirm the truthfulness and the correctness of the contents of that document? MR MORAKILE That is correct. MR VISSER When did you join the South African Police? MR MORAKILE In 1979. MR VISSER And when did you join the security branch in Bloemfontein? MR MORAKILE June 1986. MR VISSER Now are you quite sure of that Mr Morakile, that you joined the security branch in Bloemfontein at June 1986? MR MORAKILE That is correct. MR VISSER Where were you previous to that stationed, before you came to the security branch? MR MORAKILE MR VISSER Just a moment, just a moment. ...[Chairperson has problems with microphone] CHAIRPERSON No, there are bits of his evidence there. Could you tell me again where he was? MR VISSER Yes. Perhaps can you just repeat, where were you prior to June 1986? MR MORAKILE I was at the stock theft unit at Wepener. MR VISSER Now, what section did you come to work in in the security branch in Bloemfontein? MR MORAKILE I was doing investigation. MR VISSER Who was your commanding officer? MR MORAKILE Captain Du Plooy. MR VISSER And which other persons, if any, were also in that same section? MR MORAKILE I found Kopi, Mafisa and Mmelesi. Those were the black men. MR VISSER Did you work with Mr Ngo? MR MORAKILE No, not at all. MR VISSER Do you know Mr Ngo at all? MR MORAKILE I saw Ngo for a short time, I think two, if not three weeks and he left for the college. MR VISSER Did you ever see him after that? MR MORAKILE No I never saw him thereafter. MR VISSER Or have anything to do with him after that? MR MORAKILE Not at all. MR VISSER Did you work with Mr Motsamai? MR MORAKILE Not at all. MR VISSER Now, Mr Motsamai has alleged that you took part in an attack and we know it was during 1985 that this happened, on a house belonging to Mrs Winnie Mandela. What do you say about that? MR MORAKILE In 1985 I was not present, I was in Wepener. I came to the security branch in 1986. MR VISSER And did you did you take part in the attack on the house of Mrs Mandela? MR MORAKILE Not at all. MR VISSER It is also suggested that you took part in a petrol bomb attack on the house of Nicos. What did you say about that? MR MORAKILE I was not present. MR VISSER The petrol bomb attack on the house of Bolosha. Did you take part in that? MR MORAKILE Not at all. MR VISSER Did you take part in a petrol bomb attack on a parish house in Bochabela? MR MORAKILE Not at all. MR VISSER Were you present during and incident were Oupa Makubalo was arrested? Were you present when Oupa Makubalo was arrested? MR MORAKILE Yes, I was present. MR VISSER Will you tell the Committee, how it came about and what you remember about that incident. MR MORAKILE We were on the 5th floor at Fountain on that day. We were in the kitchen, Motsamai arrived and he requested our assistance, he said he got information that the person who killed his informer is somewhere in Bochabela. We got into the Kombi and we left for Bochabela, it was in the afternoon. When we arrived at Botshabela, the Kombi stopped. Oupa Makubalo started running away, then we got out of the Kombi to chase him. I think the second house from the corner, he got into that house. We jumped the fences. I could not catch hem but Sergeant Mamome caught him and then we took him back to the office. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Yes, Mr Morakile, I would ask you to perhaps speak a little more slowly so the interpreter has time to hear what you say and to interpret it. Do you understand? MR MORAKILE I understand Sir. MR VISSER Now, you gathered, drove together with other members of the security branch in a Kombi to somewhere, is that correct? MR MORAKILE That is correct. MR VISSER Where, precisely did you go? MR MORAKILE We were going to arrest Oupa Makubalo. MR VISSER Where, in what area did you go and arrest him, what is the name of the place? MR MORAKILE Bochabela, B-o-c-h-a-b-e-l-a. MR VISSER MR MORAKILE They are not the same, you are right. MR VISSER You drove down the street and then what did you see? MR MORAKILE When we arrived at Botchabela, there was a group of people there, one of the ran away. That is when we knew that it was Oupa Makubalo. We chased him a way, he jumped over the fences, we jumped the fences too until Sergeant Mamome caught him. MR VISSER Mamome, M-a-m-o-m-e. The interpreter said you chased him away, did you chase after him, after Oupa Makubalo. MR MORAKILE That is correct, we were chasing after him. MR VISSER Did you have your firearm with you? MR MORAKILE Yes. MR VISSER Did you draw your firearm? MR MORAKILE Not at all, I did not. MR VISSER And then consequently did you, discharge your firearm at all on that day? MR MORAKILE My firearm was never discharged. MR VISSER Did you see anybody else shooting that day, of the security branch people, or anybody else? MR MORAKILE Yes. MR VISSER Who did you see who fired his firearm? MR MORAKILE MR VISSER Now when did this happen, Mr Morakile? MR MORAKILE When we got out of the Kombi, Boyzi got out of the car ...[intervention] MR VISSER MR MORAKILE MR VISSER Can you remember who many times he shot after Oupa, as you put it? MR MORAKILE I do not remember, but it was several times, it might be three if not four. MR VISSER Were you in the vicinity when Sergeant Mamome arrested Oupa Makubalo? MR MORAKILE No, I was at the back, I was not any close to him. MR VISSER Did you see anybody assault Mr Makubalo on that day? MR MORAKILE MR VISSER NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR DU PLESSIS No questions for the witness, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER Mr Morakile, are you sure that in June of 86 was the first time you reported for duty at the security police? MR MORAKILE That is true Sir. MR STANDER Were you involved at an earlier stage here at the security police in Bloemfontein? MR MORAKILE Not at all. MR STANDER MR MORAKILE Which date are you referring to? MR STANDER 6th of April 86. MR MORAKILE I arrived at the security branch on the 21st of June 1986. MR STANDER She can also recall it specifically as as a fact that you were the person who hit her with your open hand. What do you have to say in this regard? MR MORAKILE I would not have slapped him in my absence. MR STANDER I want to put it to you that you are trying to keep yourself away from the scene, while at that stage you were involved with the security police to some or other extent here in Bloemfontein. CHAIRPERSON Before you came to Bloemfontein and got involved with the security police you were ...[inaudible]? MR MORAKILE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you keep a pocket book in those days? MR MORAKILE Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR MORAKILE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON That should be available should'nt it, from Wepener, Wepener Police Station? MR STANDER I believe so Mr Chairman. MR MORAKILE I can even help. My record, the SAP record in 1986 will show with whom did I leave Wepener to come to Bloemfontein. MR STANDER Thank you, Mr Chairman. In the light of the arres of Oupa Makubalo, did you see whether Sergeant Mamome fired any shots? MR MORAKILE I did not see him at all. MR STANDER MR MORAKILE Yes, he got out of the car. MR STANDER Did you watch him the whole time, from the time he got out of the car until he returned with Oupa Makubalo? CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER ...[inaudible] fired the shots. MR MORAKILE Can you repeat your question, Sir. MR STANDER MR MORAKILE I did not see him when he arrested him, when he caught him. I just saw them coming, approaching. MR STANDER Is there a possibility that he could have fired shots which you did not see? MR MORAKILE MR STANDER Did any of your other people fire any shots? MR MORAKILE I did not see anyone shooting except Motsamai. MR STANDER MR MORAKILE Let me explain this to you. This person was deeply hurt because his informer was killed, he might have done that. He was supposed to do that because the person he was working with was killed. MR STANDER Did you see Mr Makubalo when he was brought back? MR MORAKILE Yes, we came with him in the Kombi. MR STANDER Did you notice any blood on his face? MR MORAKILE Not at all, I did not see blood at all. MR STANDER Because I was instructed to put it to you that his front tooth had either been hit out or kicked out on that occasion. MR MORAKILE I did not see that, truly. MR STANDER MR MORAKILE Yes. MR STANDER And can you give us a reason, if this is so, why there was no blood? MR MORAKILE I did not see. MR STANDER Did you look at him at all? MR MORAKILE Yes, we left Bochabela with him, we came to Fountain. He was there, I saw him. MR STANDER You could see his face very clearly? MR MORAKILE I was looking at him just as I am looking at you now. MR STANDER And that is why I find it strange that you saw no marks or injuries or blood on his face. MR MORAKILE He did not have blood on his face. MR STANDER I put it to you that the only reason why you are denying this is because you are trying to protect people whom you know have acted wrongly. MR MORAKILE That is not correct. MR STANDER I have no further questions thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI As the chair pleases. MR MORAKILE Yes, it appeared like that. MR MEMANI People who referred to you as Molefe said they were assaulted on the 6th of April 1986. MR VISSER MR MEMANI The people who referred to you as Molefe said that they were assaulted on the 6th of April 1986. MR MORAKILE I already said that I would not assault a person once I was absent. On the 6th of April 1986, I was not in Bloemfontein but in Wepener. I already told you that I came to Bloemfontein on the 21st of June 1986. MR MEMANI You see my instructions are that there was a person called Kaya and Mopena at security branch who worked there without been registered as members of the security branch. MR MORAKILE I know the two of them, they were working there. MR MEMANI And Ngo at some stage worked there without being registered as a member of the security branch. MR MORAKILE I only knew that he was a recruit. MR MEMANI MR MORAKILE Is that a white person? I only know one Bester who was a captain. He left when he was a major. MR MEMANI Yes, that is the one. I'm told that for a long time he worked with security branch without being registered as a member of security branch? MR MORAKILE MR MEMANI MR MORAKILE Where? MR MEMANI He was with you when you went to bomb the house of Nicos, he was with you when you went to burn - to bomb the house of Winnie. MR MORAKILE It would not be possible to go and bomb that house in my absence because at that time in 1985 I did not know anything about the branch because I was not connected with them. MR MEMANI Mr Motsamai concedes that it is possible that you may have been working with the stock theft unit because at that stage you never used to be at the office, but Mr Mamome would come with you. MR MORAKILE MR MEMANI Now, Mr Morakile, when you went to arrest Oupa, you told us that you saw Mr Mamome and others come back with Morakile, with Oupa rather. MR MORAKILE MR MEMANI Do you know that when Mr Makubalo is being chased, some of the policemen when on the one side of the house and some went on the other side of the house? MR MORAKILE That is correct. MR MEMANI And it appears to me that you did not catch up with them, you could not keep up with the pace. MR MORAKILE That is correct. MR MEMANI MR MORAKILE The first one I saw him shooting is Motsamai, is Boyzi, I saw him. After that when they were obscured I heard a gunshot. MR MEMANI MR MORAKILE MR MEMANI MR MORAKILE I spoke about what, I spoke about gunfire from Motsamai. MR MEMANI MR MORAKILE CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that you did not hear any gunshots other than the gunshots that you saw Mr Motsamai ...[intervention] INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying you did not hear any other gunshots other than the shots you heard when you saw Mr Motsamai firing? MR MORAKILE That is correct. MR MEMANI MR MORAKILE Let me put it in this way: When Motsamai get off the car, he started shooting then he turned on the house, they were following Oupa and from there I did not hear gunfire again. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MORAKILE Maybe I did not understand the question correctly. I said ended up gunfire after Motsamai was chasing Oupa, maybe I did not understand the question. JUDGE NGOEPE And from there you did not hear any other gunfire? MR MORAKILE JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you. MR MEMANI Where was Motsamai when he was shooting? MR MORAKILE MR MEMANI Now, how many times did he shoot? MR MORAKILE It would be three to four times. MR MEMANI Was it at the stage when he was in the vicinity of the vehicle when he shot? MR MORAKILE Yes, that is correct. MR MEMANI You must be mistaken because Mr Makubalo said throughout the time that he was being chased. He pressed there were shots being fired. MR MORAKILE MR MEMANI He told us that he ran into one house, jumped over the fence of the opposite house and into the following street and started running down the road and at all this time he was being shot at. MR MORAKILE He was in the street that he jumped, again he went to the yard, then he went to another yard, then he jumped, he went to another street, then he went to another yard. At that time when we chasing him, there was no gunfire. Then from there there I was left behind and then Mamome was able to catch him. MR MEMANI He ran away and he decided that come what may, he was not going to runaway from the gunfire and that is how he got caught. MR MORAKILE MR MEMANI MR MORAKILE Not at all, we are friendly to each other, even up to now. MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases, those are my questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER MR MORAKILE Before the sixth of April? MR STANDER Yes. MR MORAKILE I believe there after that because I told you that on the 6th of April 1985 or 1986 I was not here, I came to Bloemfontein on the 21st of June 1986. MR STANDER Is it not possible, or rather let me state it this way: What is your reaction that it indeed took place before the arrest of the group of 19. MR MORAKILE ...[no English translation] CHAIRPERSON He says he wasn't here and knows nothing about the arrest of the group of 19. MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON I got the impression he's completely certain and he asked us to get hold of his South African Police records which should show precisely when he came there. MR STANDER Yes possible that would be indicated. In the light of another aspect, may I with your permission, ask another question? I will deal with it in one or two questions I promise. JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry, before you do that Mr Stander, is your client here? MR STANDER Are you referring to Mr Makubalo? JUDGE NGOEPE Yes. Is he able to remember the date on which this instant happened, one would think that he would remember that date. MR STANDER That he told me specifically but unfortunately he cannot remember the exact date. MR VISSER My learned friend has just put as a fact to this witness that it was before April 1986, surely that must come from somewhere. Could my learned friend tell me where he gets this information from? MR STANDER I told the Committee already, Mr Chairman that the information came from Mr Makubalo. Mr Morakile, please tell me, Mr Motsamai went to arrest a person who had killed somebody else, this informant of his, am I correct in that respect? MR MORAKILE MR STANDER In other word he went to arrest a suspect on a murder charge? MR MORAKILE MR STANDER Then he came on the scene, there was a group of you who saw this, there was the person who was the suspect and he was running away. MR MORAKILE Yes, he was running and we chased after him. MR STANDER ADV DE JAGER MR STANDER Thank you Mr Commissioner. MR MORAKILE Motsamai shot, you must understand, he was hurt because his informer was killed and he was desperate to arrest this person. MR STANDER I have no further questions for the witness, thank you Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER One question, perhaps in re-examination. Did you personally know Mr Oupa Makubalo on the day when you were requested to go and assist Mr Motsamai to arrest him, did you know who it was? MR MORAKILE I knew him afterwards. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR VISSER Mr Chairman, we will attempt to obtain the SAP record for you which will hopefully show when he was transferred from wherever to the security branch in Bloemfontein. CHAIRPERSON His pocket book should also show what he was doing on the day in question. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Did you say they were here. MR VISSER Well some, there were witnesses here all day long, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON What right do they have to leave? If you have summonsed them here as witnesses. Did they speak to you or your attorney? MR VISSER Mr Chairman, if you could just allow me a very short adjournment, I will establish what the situation is and I will inform you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and I will want a full explanation from them. JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Visser, are you also going to look into the possibility whether one or two of them can avail themselves. MR VISSER One or two of them can? JUDGE NGOEPE Avail themselves for this afternoon. Are you also going to look into whether or not we can have one or two of them this afternoon? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Right. MR VISSER The moment they come - I've consulted with all of them, it's just a question - as I placed on record before, that they do have things to go on with Mr Chairman, and we kept three witnesses, in fact we've had five witnesses today. I didn't anticipate that we'd finish with them as early as this. CHAIRPERSON Very well, we'll grant you a short adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS WITNESS EXCUSED MR MAMOME (sworn states) MR VISSER Mr Mamome, what is your rank in the South African Police Service? MR MAMOME Detective Inspector, Sir. MR VISSER When did you join the South African Police? MR MAMOME 1974 on the 2nd of August. MR VISSER And when did you join the security branch in Bloemfotntein? MR MAMOME 19th October 1990. MR VISSER 19? MR MAMOME 1980 Sir, sorry, I beg your pardon. MR VISSER Now, you were informed that you were implicated in various incidents by the applicants in this case, is that correct? MR MAMOME That is correct. MR VISSER And you went to see an attorney in Pretoria, Mr Wagner, is that correct? MR MAMOME That is correct. MR VISSER MR MAMOME That is correct, Sir. MR VISSER Are those two affidavits before you now? MR MAMOME I have P13, 14 and P36. MR VISSER Did you sign those documents? MR MAMOME That is correct. MR VISSER And do you confirm today that the contents of those documents is true and correct? MR MAMOME That is correct. MR VISSER What section did you work in the security branch in Bloemfontein? MR MAMOME Black section, Sir. MR VISSER Who was your commander? MR MAMOME The first one was Major Coetzee and the second one was Captain Shaw. MR VISSER Which other members were there in the black section of the security branch here in Bloemfontein? MR MAMOME It was myself, Mr Motsamai, Mr Sesedyane ...[intervention] MR VISSER That is spelt S-e-s-e-d-y-a-n-e. Yes? MR MAMOME Mr Mtyhala, Mr Miningwa - sorry, no, no, I beg your pardon, Mr Morakile and Mr Erasmus, Mr Killian, Mr Wydaman, he was my partner and others. MR VISSER Alright. How many members, can you remember, were there attached to the security branch in 1985/1986 here in Bloemfontein? MR MAMOME MR VISSER Did you know Mr Ngo? MR MAMOME Yes, I knew this informer called Mr Ngo. MR VISSER MR MAMOME I would say that date is wrong. MR VISSER When did you first get to know anything about Mr Ngo? MR MAMOME The time when I found him lying on the stomach on the stretcher being stabbed. MR VISSER After he was stabbed? MR MAMOME That is correct. MR VISSER When was that? Can you remember the year of that incident? MR MAMOME MR VISSER Now what transpired later in regard to Mr Ngo that you know about, did you see him again? MR MAMOME Yes, I saw him in our offices after that incident. MR VISSER What was he doing there? MR MAMOME I am not able to answer that because he was working with Mr Erasmus. MR VISSER It is correct of course, that Mr Ngo became a student constable in March 1986 and that he left for Pretoria for the Police College, Training College in July 1986. Are you prepared to accept that? MR MAMOME Sir, I was not monitoring him at the time when he was there. I not able to say it was like that or not but what I know that he went to Ladybrand, then from there he left to Hammanskraal, but I not able to tell which year. MR VISSER Did you work with Mr Ngo at all when he was a student constable? MR MAMOME No Sir, I was not able to work with him. MR VISSER Did you work with Mr Motsamai? MR MAMOME There were joint operations were both of us were engaged, that is when I met him but we were working in two's, that is one black, one white. To answer the question, yes, sometimes we were working together. MR VISSER MR MAMOME MR VISSER Alright, Mr Ngo says, page 23 of his application, that you participated in the kidnapping and the assault of Mr White Mohape. Is that true? MR MAMOME He is lying. MR VISSER And that you participated in the murder of a UDF member called either JJ or Pape, at page 25 of his application. Is that true? MR MAMOME He is lying, Sir. MR VISSER And that you thereafter, when you were called upon to go to Batu Police Station, that you failed to admit that you knew something about the whereabouts of this person called JJ. MR MAMOME That is correct. MR VISSER He says furthermore at page 27 of his application that you took part in the assault and torturing of comrades in 1986 in Bloemfontein. Is there any truth in that? MR MAMOME There is no truth in that. MR VISSER Furthermore alleges that you similarly took, at page 31, that you similarly took part in the torturing of comrades in Botshabelo in 1986, what do you say tO that? MR MAMOME MR VISSER He also told the Committee at page 41 that you participated in an attack on the clinic of Mrs Winnie Mandela and BrandforT, is that true? MR MAMOME That is a lie. MR VISSER Mr Motsamai, ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR VISSER Perhaps I should make it clearer. Mr Ngo alleged that at on a certain day, a group of people including yourself and Motsamai, had to go to Batu Police Station to speak to a warrant officer Modise. Do you remember that? MR MAMOME Yes I do. MR VISSER And that it was Warrant Officer Tsoametsi that told you to go there and when you arrived there you were asked about - this is page 26 Mr Chairman, you were asked whether you could give information about the body of the person that was found wearing a UDF T-shirt. MR MAMOME We found that UDF dressed in - we found that corpse dressed in UDF T-shirt. MR VISSER MR MAMOME What is the question, Sir? MR VISSER The question is whether you told Mr Modise at Batu ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR MAMOME MR VISSER Where you asked whether you could give information about the corpse that was found wearing a UDF T-shirt? MR MAMOME That is correct? MR VISSER MR MAMOME That is correct. MR VISSER I think that is what the witness was talking about Commissioner de Jager. Mr Ngo also implicated you in the murder, robbery, murder and robbery of Mr Venter. Do you recall that? MR MAMOME MR VISSER MR MAMOME MR VISSER Did you take Mr Ngo to a house so that he could murder somebody. MR MAMOME No, Sir. MR VISSER Bear with me a moment Mr Chairman. In any event, Mr Ngo also said that you gave instructions for them to go back - well, to bury the body of Mr Venter, is that so? MR MAMOME MR VISSER And afterwards to back to ransack or to take items out of the house of Mr Venter. MR MAMOME That is not correct. MR VISSER That you in fact, took his car, you and Mr Ngo, took his car and you went to Botshabelo? MR MAMOME I did not go there, I did not go with Mr Ngo, that is his story. MR VISSER MR MAMOME That is not correct. MR VISSER MR MAMOME MR VISSER In short, you had nothing to do with the murder or robbery of Mr Venter? MR MAMOME MR VISSER Right. Mr Motsamai at page 146 of bundle B, says that you participated in the killing of a person by the name of George Musi in Melk Street, Bothchabela. Is there any truth in that? MR MAMOME MR VISSER Did you take part in killing a person in Melk Street with Mr Motsamai? MR MAMOME No, Sir. MR VISSER He suggested in his paragraph two that you were also involved in burning the house of Mrs Winnie Mandela in Brandfort, it was during the 1980s he says, and you accompanied him. Is that true? MR MAMOME MR VISSER And he goes on to say that a few weeks later, the two of you burnt her clinic as well, Paragraph two page one four six of bundle B. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR VISSER Melk Street, Milk Street. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR VISSER Is there any truth in that? MR MAMOME MR VISSER MR MAMOME This boy is lying. MR VISSER In paragraph four he says that yourself, him, Constable Mtyhala, Constable Morakile petrol- bombed a house belonging to a businessman, Nicos. Is that true? MR MAMOME MR VISSER Do you know Mr Nicos? MR MAMOME I know him. I beg your pardon, I know him. MR VISSER Can you tell the Committee anything about your relationship with Mr Nicos? MR MAMOME I would say he was my friend. We visited him, we used to go out with him. I began to associate myself with him through a certain person I was working with. The name of my friend is Kabuza that is K-h-a- u-z-a, Kabuza. MR VISSER MR MAMOME MR VISSER MR MAMOME MR VISSER Yes. MR MAMOME That is correct. MR VISSER Please tell the Committee about that. MR MAMOME MR VISSER There was an incident concerning a little girl, do you remember that? MR MAMOME MR VISSER Alright, well just tell the Committee what happened there as far as you could ascertain. MR MAMOME I went with Captain Kholae to a particular house at the corner. MR VISSER Can you just spell that surname Khoale? MR MAMOME: K-h-o-a-l-e. MR VISSER Alright. And you went you went somewhere, yes? MR MAMOME We went to Rocklands, the street is Mabule, M-a-b-u-l-e Street. It was the corner house and next door to that house there was a garage owned by Nicos. MR VISSER Yes, and what did you find at the house? MR MAMOME We found a boy, we asked that boy about the where abouts of this girl because they last say them together. MR VISSER Did you find this little girl? MR MAMOME MR MEMANI MR MAMOME I said we found a body in the wardrobe, this was a six year old girl, this body was already mutilated in that house. Now these people ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Sorry, was the body decomposed or mutilated? MR MAMOME MR VISSER MR MAMOME Chairperson, I would be committing myself. His house was petrol bomb attacked but I would not say it was attacked by the community because of this discovered body. MR VISSER Now Mr Motsamai also said that Mr Nicos was a courier for the ANC in Lesotho. Did you know anything about that, whether it was true or not? MR MAMOME I would not know that, Sir. MR VISSER In paragraph 5 at page 146 of bundle B, Mr Motsamai says that you and himself burned a motor vehicle belonging to Jannie Mohape. Is that true? MR MAMOME That is not true. MR VISSER And in paragraph 6 at page 147, he applied for ...[End of tape 4B - no follow-on sound] Lesale - L-e-s-a-l-e and Constable Miningwa - M-i-n-i-n-g-w-a petrol-bombed the parental home of Citi Mzuzwana. Now, did you know whether that - whether the house of the parents of Citi Mzuzwana, was in fact burnt? MR MAMOME MR VISSER And did you take part in any such illegal act? MR MAMOME No, Sir. MR VISSER MR MAMOME That is a lie Sir. MR VISSER Can you remember about this incident? MR MAMOME I know that that person was shot but to ...[indistinct] certain police that that person should be shot, it would not happen. I did not do that. No policeman can be told by another policeman to do that. MR VISSER And there was a court case in which Mr Citi Mzuzwana, sorry Zwelinzima Mzuzwana, claimed damages. Do you know about that? MR MEMANI MR VISSER MR MAMOME I would answer your question Matthews had a file at security branch. I read at SAP5 that he sued the state for R90 000. MR VISSER MR MAMOME No, Sir. MR VISSER In paragraph 9 at page 147 he says that himself, that is Motsamai and you, burnt and petrol- bombed a motor vehicle belonging to one Thabang, T-h-a-b-a-n-g, who was a teacher at Vulamasango High School in Bloemfontein and who was an orgainser of the United Democratic Front. Is it true that you participated in petrol-bombing a vehicle belonging to that person? MR MAMOME MR VISSER Thabatha, T-h-a-b-a-t-h-a? MR MAMOME That is correct. MR VISSER In paragraph 10 at page 147, Mr Motsamai alleges that himself, you, Constable Morakile, Constable Mtyhala, Constable Litseho and Constable Lesale, L-e-s-a-l-e, petrol bombed the house of a teacher, Balosha who was a member of the UDF. Is that true? MR MAMOME MR VISSER MR MAMOME MR VISSER At page 148 paragraph 12, Mr Motsamai alleges that himself, you, Sergeant Sesedinyane and Constable Morakile, petrol-bombed a parish house in Botshabelo. Is that true? MR MAMOME That is not correct Sir. MR VISSER In fact, in his evidence he said that you wrote a letter to the priest, is that true? MR MAMOME I hear that for the first time today, maybe he is trying to colour his amnesty statement. MR VISSER Now, in paragraph 13, he does not mention you by name, but he refers there to assault and torture of detained and/or arrested political activists at the offices of the internal security unit on the 5th floor in Fountain Street, Bloemfontein. If this refers to the group of 19 people who were arrested in the Ladybrand district and brought to Bloemfontein, my question to you is did you take part in any assault on them or any torturing of them? MR MAMOME No, Sir. MR VISSER Did you assault or torture any detainee in the building at Fountain Street Mr Mamone? MR MAMOME No, Sir. MR VISSER Lastly, paragraph 14 at page 148, deals with the arrest of Oupa Makubalo. Can you tell the Committee what you know about that incident. MR MAMOME We were in the kitchen, Mr Motsamai came running and he said one of his informer called him, he identified where Oupa Makubalo hid. So he requested our help to go and fetch Makubalo. He wanted Makubalo because Makubalo killed another informer of his. I was driving that Kombi, we drove to Botchabela ...[intervention] MR VISSER Just a moment, would you just tell the Committee who were in the Kombi. Was Mr Motsamai in the Kombi? MR MAMOME He was present, he was sitting at the door at the back. MR VISSER Alright, and you were driving? MR MAMOME MR VISSER Who else was in the Kombi? MR MAMOME MR VISSER MR MAMOME We drove to a location called Botchabela. MR VISSER: And, just continue. Did you drive down a certain street? MR MAMOME Yes, but I forgot the name of the street but anyway we arrive at that house. Mr Makubalo was standing outside and I opened the window, I called him. MR VISSER Was he standing alone? MR MAMOME He was with other two boys. I called him to come nearer, he was on his way coming. Mr Motsamai opened the door, he went behind the Kombi and he fired a shot. MR VISSER And what happened thereafter? MR MAMOME Oupa ran, he ran and we chased him and he asked us why were we shooting at him. I then caught him. MR VISSER Did you see or hear or how many times did Mr Motsamai shoot at Oupa Makubalo according to your recollection? MR MAMOME I could not count. MR VISSER Was it more than once? MR MAMOME Yes, he was actually pumping, he was not playing. MR VISSER And is it correct that you in fact got hold of Mr Makubalo and you restrained him and arrested him? MR MAMOME That is correct. MR VISSER Did you assault Mr Makubalo? MR MAMOME Chairperson, I caught him, I did not assault him. MR VISSER Where did you then take him? MR MAMOME MR VISSER And did you have anything further to do with Mr Oupa Makubalo? MR MAMOME Not at all, Sir, I did not have anything to do with him. CHAIRPERSON Was he charged? MR MAMOME Chairperson, I would not know because we handed him over to the investigating officer. CHAIRPERSON Where? MR MAMOME CHAIRPERSON MR MAMOME Fuchsware. MR VISSER Fuchsware, it's electrical appliance, Fuchsware Building. CHAIRPERSON So it should be possible to obtain a date, a fixed date for when this arrest took place? MR VISSER We will make esquires Mr Chairman. Mr Mamome, is the security branch still accommodated in the Fontain Street building? MR MAMOME Yes. MR VISSER I thought that the security branch moved out of the Fontain Street Building. MR MAMOME We are many now, we have the district - we are in Fountain Street and Aliwal Street now, we have two offices. MR VISSER NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no questions for the witness. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mamome, did you participate in the interrogation of the group of 19 persons at all? MR MAMOME That is correct. MR STANDER What was your task with regard to the interrogation? MR MAMOME I was filling the forms called the historical report. MR STANDER Which section did you work in at that stage at the security police? MR MAMOME Black section. MR STANDER In other words it was also your task to investigate the youth. MR MAMOME That is correct. MR STANDER So the reply or the answers that you received there directly applicable to your field of work. MR MAMOME That is correct. MR STANDER Do you think that it was imperative for you at that stage to get answers to a lot of questions that you asked them? MR MAMOME Repeat your question Sir. MR STANDER Do you think it was very important for you to get answers to a lot of questions that you needed in your work. MR MAMOME That is correct. MR STANDER From what I could understand about the group, they were not prepared to give their co-operation? MR MAMOME That is not so, they were co-operative. MR STANDER How did you succeed in getting their co-operation? MR MAMOME It depended on the type of questions and how you asked them. MR STANDER If I understand you correctly, you said they gave you their co-operation. Did they reply properly to all the questions you put to them? Were you satisfied? MR MAMOME MR STANDER But what was asked to them ...[intervention] MR MAMOME That is correct Sir. MR STANDER Did they say nothing further, that what they were going to look for overseas or abroad, who their leaders were, and what else? MR MAMOME MR STANDER But did they give their co-operation in this regard? MR MAMOME That is correct. MR STANDER MR MAMOME MR STANDER Will you just reply to my question, namely, that whether they gave their co-operation and replies to all the questions you put to them? MR MAMOME That is correct. MR STANDER So did not not reply as you would have liked to any of the questions? MR MAMOME They answered what I asked them. JUDGE NGOEPE Who did they say they were going to meet outside the country? MR MAMOME Chairperson, they did not mention who they were going to - they said they wanted to go to Lesotho to attend school. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you not ask them who they were going to meet out side the country? MR MAMOME Chair, no Chairperson, that was the duty of another section, it was not my duty. JUDGE NGOEPE I thought you said that was one of the questions on the questionnaire, on the form. MR MAMOME That is correct and I hand the form over to the other section to look to that matter. JUDGE NGOEPE So you did not ask them that? MR MAMOME I would ask them what was on the form. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MAMOME That is correct. JUDGE NGOEPE Well did you skip that question or did you ask them that question? MR MAMOME I do not remember well, I think I asked them that question because I was going paragraph by paragraph. JUDGE NGOEPE Well that must have been a very important question ANd the answer then if would probably be even more important, of interest to you. Did you ask them that question or did you not ask them that question? MR MAMOME I asked them that question and if they did not give answers there was nothing more to do. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MAMOME Some of them, Chairperson, answered the question. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MAMOME That is correct. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MAMOME JUDGE NGOEPE And would you leave it there? MR MAMOME That is correct, Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Stander. ADV DE JAGER MR MAMOME Yes, It was called the investigation unit. ADV DE JAGER Right, to whom did you hand that form? MR MAMOME Chairperson, I do not remember specifically to who did I give this form because it was confusion on that day. ADV DE JAGER Who was the head of the investigative unit to whom this form should be handed? MR MAMOME Captain Du Plooy. MR STANDER Mr Mamome, I understood you to say that these people gave their co-operation when you asked them the questions But when Judge Ngoepe asked you what happened when the people did not want to reply, then you just kept quiet. Then surely it is not due to the fact that they always gave their co-operation, or did I understand you incorrectly? MR MAMOME MR STANDER But why did you make such a mistake? Was there a specific reason for you making such a mistake? MR MAMOME No. MR STANDER Will you explain? MR MAMOME Ask your question Sir. MR STANDER You told us that you made a mistake. I would like to know from you whether there was a reason why you made such a mistake? Perhaps you did not hear what was said. MR MAMOME Mr Stander, you ask your questions differently from Judge Ngoepe, you are very fast in asking your questions. You've got your way of asking questions, his got his own way of asking questions and his is polite. Now if a person speaks to me and the person shouts, you make me nervous. Now when you speak to me please cool down. MR STANDER I am sorry, I think the Chairman would have interrupted me a long time ago, as well as your legal representatives if they had thought that I was cross-examining you unfairly. Would you like to tell us now that the reason why you made a mistake was because that I cross-examined you in an improper manner? MR MAMOME I did not understand your question as it was put by Judge Ngoepe. MR STANDER The question now is, did you not understand the questions or what is the position? MR MAMOME That is correct, I did not understand your question. MR STANDER Did you not understand my question or that of judge Mwepi? MR MAMOME Your question, Mr Stander. MR STANDER MR MAMOME I said that. MR STANDER Why did you then when Judge Ngoepe asked you, specifically with regard to the visit overseas, said that the - you said that the people told you that they were not going to reply to that question? Or did you misunderstand Judge Ngoepe? MR MAMOME You took 10 I think, I do not know where to answer. Let me take it one one, Sir, I will split it. I am listening as you are talking, it is difficult, start again step by step. The people that I interrogated it was not as such interrogation, it was a form, a district form, a history form. Some of them were co-operative, they answered all questions, some of them were not answering questions. MR STANDER MR MAMOME MR STANDER So you were generalising? MR MAMOME I answered your question in that way when you asked me. MR STANDER So you did not misunderstand my question, you were just generalising. CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER MR MAMOME That is correct. MR STANDER But was it not important for you to know the answer to that question? MR MAMOME Every question on that form is very important. MR STANDER When they did not reply to such an important question as in your own testimony, what did you do then? MR MAMOME He was going to the cells. MR STANDER So when they did not want to answer your questions, you had them locked up. MR MAMOME When they are in the cells they are no longer in my hands they are under the people responsible for investigation. MR STANDER The question I put you, in all fairness, is that they did not want to reply to the questions as to what they were going to do in Maseru, did you do nothing about it? MR MAMOME Nothing. MR STANDER You did not even try to put the question differently, in your own version? MR MAMOME Nothing Sir. MR STANDER Let me put it to you that I find it highly improbable and extremely strange. MR MAMOME MR STANDER You must reply to that, Sir. CHAIRMAN MR STANDER Tell me, did you work on the 5th floor? MR MAMOME That is correct. MR STANDER Also in the so called Violent Street? MR MAMOME MR STANDER So was the passage, according to you, not even called Violent Street? MR MAMOME No. MR STANDER What about the other police officers that said: "Yes it was sometime called Violent Street" do you think that they are telling lies? MR MAMOME MR STANDER Did you as police officers never refer to this specific passage as Violent Street? MR MAMOME I did not know it as Violent Street. MR STANDER How long did you say have you been working at security branch? MR MAMOME I arrived there in 1980, it was about six years that I was there. MR STANDER And you said you never knew that this passage was the so-called Violent Street. MR MAMOME MR STANDER MR MAMOME MR STANDER MR MAMOME MR STANDER So all the witnesses who testified here as to their assaults, they must all have been telling a total lie. MR MAMOME They know themselves they were not assaulted. MR STANDER Do you agree that they had no reason to come and lie to this Committee? MR MAMOME MR STANDER That it why it is even more improbable ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible) a reason to lie to the Committee Or did you say they had no reason to lie to the Committee. MR MAMOME CHAIRPERSON What was it? MR STANDER On this particular day, Did you see anybody else who was assaulting these people? MR MAMOME i did not see anyone Sir. MR STANDER Did you see Mr Motsamai where he was assaulting people? MR MAMOME I was not working with this boy. MR STANDER But he says that he assaulted them, some of them. MR MAMOME MR STANDER Did you, at any stage, late that afternoon, see the group together again? MR MAMOME Which group, Mr Stander? MR STANDER With the group of 19 people. MR MAMOME I do not remember, Mr Chairman. MR STANDER Were you present or involved in the transferring of the group of 19 to other police stations? MR MAMOME Yes, I was present. MR STANDER Where there any of these who appeared to have been injured or assaulted? MR MAMOME I took a group that was taken to Bloemspruit, among them no one showing any sign of assault. MR STANDER Was Oupa Makubalo part of the group that you took to Bloemspruit? MR MAMOME I do not remember, Mr Stander. MR STANDER Was there not one member in your group who was taken to Bloemspruit who seemed to have been assaulted? MR MAMOME No, no one. MR STANDER How did you decide which people were to go to which police station or did you decide this beforehand? I just want your assistance here. MR MAMOME MR STANDER At that stage, was the group together in totality when you decided who was going where and who would take whom or how did it work? MR MAMOME They were already grouped. MR STANDER And you say the group that you took, that not one of them were assaulted. MR MAMOME No, Sir. MR STANDER Tell me, what do you say about the fact that Mr Motsamai said that he assaulted some of the people in the group of 19? MR MAMOME I really do not know, maybe he assaulted them in my absence. MR STANDER If he were to have assaulted these people do you think they would have made loud noises due to the assaults that were made on them? MR MAMOME Mr Stander, I believe so. MR STANDER Did you hear any such sounds on that day? MR MAMOME In our office? Nothing. MR STANDER Do you want to tell us that those assaults, even those to have been committed by Motsamai that they did not take place? MR MAMOME Mr Stander, I do not know what was done by Mr Motsamai, I do not know it at all. MR STANDER MR MAMOME Mr Stander, If a person screams, I would hear, if a person does not scream, how would I hear? MR STANDER Because witness after witness has testified that how they screamed but the simple question I am putting to you is, let us accept for the moment that it was only Motsamai that had assaulted them on that day, then surely, someone should have heard the screaming but according to you, you heard no screaming at all. MR STANDER That is correct. ADV DE JAGER Mr Stander, I think you could take this further in argument. MR STANDER As it pleases you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER I am of the opinion that the last question that I put - I do not want to cross swords with you, but these are the improbabilities that I have to prove before this Committee, that I can argue in this regard. And if I do point them out to the witnesses then the argument that I want to hold at the end of the day will sound hollow. But I have followed your train of thought and I will try to shorten my questions with regard to the other aspects. Let us go over to the matter of Mr Makubalo. Can you tell us what was the reason that you took your firearm with you the day that you wanted to go and arrest Oupa Makubalo? MR MAMOME MR STANDER So that day you did not have a firearm with you either? MR MAMOME I did not have a gun. MR STANDER Was it not dangerous to go into the black townships without a weapon, because I understand that there was unrest in the townships? MR MAMOME It is true, but Chairperson at that time there were many people in the Kombi and they all had firearms. MR STANDER So you placed your safety in the hands of those who were with you in the vehicle? MR MAMOME That is correct, Chairperson. MR STANDER Why did you jump out and start running because you did not have a firearm with you? You just told us that you entrusted your safety to the people who were in the vehicle. MR MAMOME Chairperson, it was daylight, I could see Oupa Makubalo and he did not have any weapon with him. MR STANDER Were you not scared of him or for the group that he was with because you suspected him of murder? MR MAMOME Oupa was not in a group. MR STANDER MR MAMOME MR STANDER Tell me, when you caught up to Oupa Makubalo, did he walk back with you voluntarily? MR MAMOME Oupa was walking. He was not a kind of person who would resist the arrest, he would go by the rules. MR STANDER Did you see that one of his front teeth was missing? MR MAMOME I did not realise that. MR STANDER Did you not see it? MR MAMOME No, Sir. MR STANDER I want to put it to you that you were the person who either hit or kicked out his front tooth. MR MAMOME ...[No English translation] MR STANDER Could it perhaps have been Motsamai that did it? MR MAMOME I do not know, I did not assault this person. MR STANDER Did you see Motsamai when he was doing this? MR MAMOME When he arrived, Oupa was already sitting in the Kombi, he did not do anything. MR STANDER Just before I leave this point, let me just go through my notes, with your permission. I also want to put it to you that not only did you assault this group of 19 but that you also shocked them with an electric apparatus in order to get answers from them. MR MAMOME ...[no sound] MR STANDER Tell Mr Mathews Mzuzwana, were you present on the day that he was shot? MR MAMOME I was not there. MR STANDER Mr Chairman, I am grateful to my learned friend, I understand that Mr Mamome did not reply to the question as to whether electric appliances were used on the group of 19. I understand that he did not reply. MR MAMOME MR STANDER I have no further questions for this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON Mr Memani, how long do you think you will be with this one? MR MEMANI Not very long, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON More than five minutes? MR MEMANI Definitely. CHAIRPERSON JUDGE NGOEPE Just a minute, before the Chair adjourns. MR MAMOME That is correct, Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you. But before Mr Motsamai fired the shots, Oupa was actually coming towards the Kombi as you had called him. MR MAMOME That is correct, Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS WITNESS EXCUSED