amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-01-27 BLOEMFONTEIN MR MAMOME https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54631&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/bloem/bloem5_2ndngo7.htm ON RESUMPTION 27 JANUARY 1998 MR VISSER Mr Chairman, if I may be allowed to say something while Mr Mamome is on his way back to the witness stand. We have managed to locate the docket in the matter in which Mr White Mohapi laid a charge of assault and attempted murder and robbery with the South African Police. JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Visser, I'm getting a bit concerned that the matter seems to be getting out of hand now. Precisely what are the contents of the docket going to show? Are we going to come across certain statements which would have been allegedly been made by Mr Mohpi which he would then say: "I didn't say that, the people who took those statements might have been collaborting with the security branch, I never said that". And are we then thereafter going to have to call those people who would supposedly have taken statements from him, to come and say: "Well, this is what he said" and so on and so forth. I'm getting worried that this matter is - we'll have to consider it very carefully Mr Visser. We appreciate that you raise that point, you came across the docket. But I think for a start, you should discuss the matter - and this is my personal opinion, discuss the matter with Mr Stander with regard in particular to some of the issues that I have raised. If we are going to end up opening a totally new front altogether, I would have serious misgivings about that. It seems to us that we must restrict ourselves, certainly within the perimeter of what we are here for. And I think that, speaking for myself, you will need to discuss with Mr Stander, to make sure that we are not going to open a totally new front and in the end finding ourselves embarking on virtually a trial within a trial. CHAIRPERSON As I understand it has been available to the Police throughout. MR VISSER No Mr Chairman, we - Colonel Erasmus only found this this docket over the weekend and we had a look at it on ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Mr Chairman what do we do with this docket now? Are you not prepared to see it can we not ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON: I suggest you give it to Mr Stander and see if he has any views to express because it's his client. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI Mr Mamome, is it correct that Mr Motsamai calls you Mzito? MR MAMOME That is correct. MR MEMANI Your mike is off. MR MAMOME That is correct Sir. MR MEMANI MR MAMOME No, Sir. MR MEMANI Are you not aware that he was nicknamed "Crossroads"? MR. MAMOME: No, Chairperson MR MEMANI My instructions are that you used to call him "Crossroads" because he used he used to go with you petrol bombing houses and you said that he reminded you of Crossroads in in in the Cape Province which was in flames at the time. MR MAMOME Its not like that Chairperson MR. MEMANE It seems someone is playing his radio on the earphones. [PROBLEM WITH EARPHONES] MR MEMANI I put it to you that you deny knowing the nickname "Crossroads" because it will show that you were aware of the fact that Motsamai was involved in petrol bombings. MR MAMOME No, Chairperson MR MEMANI Is it also not true that you and Motsamai were in the same karate club? MR MAMOME I start to hear to-day Chairperson. MR MEMANI Do you know a karate club called Fatima? MR MAMOME I know that Sir. MR MEMANI Were you not in that karate club? MR MAMOME No, Chairperson. MR MEMANI I put it to you again that you're making this denial only to dissociate yourself from Mr Motsamai. MR MAMOME I have no reason to disassociate myself from Mr Motsamai, he was working where I was working. MR MEMANI Is it also not correct that you were working with Mr Motsamai when Mr Mzuzwana was shot at? MR MAMOME No Sir, its not like that Sir. MR MEMANI MR MAMOME CHAIRPERSON Colonel Smith? MR MEMANI Colonel Smith, yes Chairperson. MR MAMOME Chairperson, I start to hear these things to-day. MR MEMANI Do you remember that at any stage you ever worked with Mr Motsamai, visiting informers locally? MR MAMOME No Chairperson, I do not remember. MR MEMANI Do you recall that you ever worked with with Mr Motsamai at any stage? MR MAMOME Motsamai was working in the same section which I worked, he was not my partner. As I said we worked in two's and that is one black one white. MR MEMANI Do you recall that you ever performed any task with Motsamai? MR MAMOME If maybe you able to identify that operation or that work maybe I may remember. MR MEMANI As you are sitting there, you yourself do not recall any task that you ever performed with Motsamai? MR MAMOME No, Chairperson. MR MEMANI MR MAMOME Chairperson its not like that. MR MEMANI MR MAMOME I was not present Chairperson, I was not present Chairperson. MR MEMANI I have instructions from Jeff Mabilo that he was present when you gave a certain firearm to "Yster". MR MAMOME MR MEMANI Do you know Jeff Mabilo? MR MAMOME MR. MAMANE: Helped his sister when she was raped, is that what you said? MR MAMOME That is correct MR MEMANI And do you know Yster? MR MAMOME I know Yster he was my friend. MR MEMANI As far as you are aware are there any ill feelings between yourself and Jeff Mabilo MR MAMOME No Sir, not at all. MR MEMANI MR MAMOME That is correct Sir. MR MEMANI MR MAMOME I regarded him as my younger brother we, did not a conflict or an ill feeling. MR MEMANI MR MAMOME Kabusa was my colleague not a friend. MR MEMANI And Nicos was your friend? MR MAMOME That is correct, that is correct Chairperson. MR MEMANI MR MAMOME MR MEMANI MR MAMOME MR MEMANI MR MAMOME That is correct Chairperson. MR MEMANI MR MAMOME Chairperson, when we asked this boy he agreed that he killed that little girl. CHAIRPERSON How old was this little boy? MR MAMOME 14 years Chairperson. MR MEMANI I want us to deal with Oupa Makubalo. My instructions are that you are the person who came into the - just one second, my instructions are that you are the person who came into the kitchen and said that your informer had told you that he had seen Oupa. MR MAMOME You saying he saw Oupa? MR MEMANI That is correct, Makubalo. MR MAMOME Chairperson, it seems to the question is incomplete, I request Mr Memani to put it again. CHAIRPERSON What he said was you were the person who came into the kitchen and said that your informer had seen Oupa. MR MAMOME JUDGE NGOEPE MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, that was denied. I do not recall if I specifically put that it was Mamome but if if I did not put put it to the other witnesses it was due to oversight. My recollection would be that even in his evidence Motsamai said Mamome came and made the report. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MEMANI Thank you Mr Chairman. MR MEMANI Now my instructions are that you are the person who came and made the report that your informer had seen Mr Makubalo. MR MAMOME I dispute that Chairperson. MR MEMANI And my instructions again are that the informer who was killed by Makubalo was was in fact your informer. MR MAMOME It is surprising, we speak of human life a human life. Maybe the truth would not come out but the person who has killed and the person who handled that person would surface. MR MEMANI Now, when you arrived at the place where Makubalo was, we are told that you shot, you first without speaking to Makubalo. MR MAMOME It is not like that Chairperson. MR MEMANI MR MAMOME That is correct Chairperson. MR MEMANI Did you at any stage say that Motsamai must stop shooting? MR MAMOME No, Sir. MR MEMANI And Makubalo told us that he heard gun fire until the time when he decided that come what may, he was no longer going to run away and you came and tripped him. MR MAMOME MR MEMANI Now, as you were running, were you the one who was at the forefront? MR MAMOME I came with a car then I stopped it just in front of him. MR MEMANI And you started pursuing Makubalo? MR MAMOME No, I caught him Mr Chairperson. MR MEMANI MR MAMOME Oupa was standing next to - at a house, then he saw Mr Motsamai, then he ran around then Mr Motsamai started shooting then he jumped a fence to the next street, then I came with another street, then we met somewhere on that street. MR MEMANI Did you not pursue him? MR MAMOME Yes, I did. MR MEMANI Then why did it take you so long to concede that you pursued him? MR MAMOME CHAIRPERSON But a moment ago you when you were asked you specifically said: "I did not pursue him, I caught him", now you say you pursued him. MR MAMOME Chairperson, I pursued him with a car. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, did the others run after him and you drove round to another road in a car? MR MAMOME MR MEMANI MR MAMOME MR MEMANI You see, because Mr Makubalo told us that the person who caught him approached him from behind and tripped him. MR MAMOME MR MEMANI Or let me say that the impression that I got is that the person who caught him approached him from behind. ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI It may not have been correctly interpreted to you. I said that he decided come what may he was not going to run away anymore and the person then came and caught him. COMMISSIONER: MR MEMANI INTERPRETER Interpreters are disturbed by a Radio Chairperson. [RADIO DISTURBANCES] MR MEMANI Now Mr Mamome, we were told that the car was parked at the spot where it stopped when Makubalo was first seen. MR MAMOME MR MEMANI Well, let me say near the - next to the vehicle. MR MAMOME MR MEMANI I think it was Mmelesi who said he did not join in the chase, he stood next to the car while the rest of you chased Oupa. MR MAMOME I pursued Oupa with a car, I was not pursuing him on foot. When I arrived next to Oupa I stopped the Kombi then I said to him: "Stop", then I did not run after him but I pursued him with a car. CHAIRPERSON MR MAMOME That is correct Chairperson. MR MEMANI MR MAMOME MR MEMANI Of all the people who testified about this incident, you are the only person who has suggested that the vehicle was used to chase Makubalo. MR MAMOME MR MEMANI And I also put it to you that you are the only person whom Makubalo could recall clearly as having been present on the day. MR MAMOME MR MEMANI MR MAMOME ADV DE JAGER MR MAMOME That is correct Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER So I think its common cause at least that he was on the scene and that he did the arrest. MR MAMOME MR MEMANI MR MAMOME I said yesterday, I even say to-day that I was not carrying a gun, I arrested Mr Makubalo. It was not necessary to trip him and to kick him, I just arrested him. MR MEMANI And I also put it to you that you deny having pursued Mr Makubalo on foot because amongst other things you fired shots at him. MR MAMOME It is not like that Chairperson. MR MEMANI And that for the same reason you deny that you carried a gun at all. MR MAMOME I did not carry a gun. JUDGE NGOEPE One of the witnesses said all of you were armed, had guns. Would he be mistaken? MR MAMOME I think he is mistaken. MR MEMANI Mr MAMOME Yes, Sir. MR MEMANI And is it also not correct that you were present on various occasions when he committed certain offences? MR MAMOME MR MEMANI Is it not correct that you sometimes worked with him? MR MAMOME I did not work with Mr Ngo. MR MEMANI MR MAMOME MR MEMANI No, let me be precise I was referring to the time when Mr Ngo was injured. MR MAMOME MR MEMANI It surprises me that Mr Ngo would come and lie about that fact because it does not involve any offence or implicate you in any wrongdoing. MR MAMOME I want to reply to Mr Memani's question Chairperson. He is sentenced for twenty five years, he has stayed for seven years and therefore he has created a story which he should bring to the Truth Commission. I do not know Mr Venter Mr Memani. MR MEMANI MR MAMOME MR MEMANI And my instructions are that you used to come there to see him after he was injured and on occasions Mr Venter was there. CHAIRPERSON Mr Venter was visiting him in hospital? MR MAMOME CHAIRPERSON Oh. MR MAMOME It is not like that Chairperson. MR MEMANI And I put it to you that you deny knowing Mr Venter at all because of the knowledge that you did assist Mr Ngo when he killed Mr Venter. MR MAMOME MR MEMANI No further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK Thank you Mr Chairman I'll be brief. Mr Memani, on the 6th of April 198 ...[intervention] MR MEMANI This is Mr Mamome Mr Brink. MR BRINK I beg your pardon. On the 6th of April 1986, when this group of 19 were brought to the fountain security branch headquarters, did you interrogate any of the females? MR MAMOME No Sir, I did not interrogate women. MR BRINK Well perhaps you can help me, there has been evidence that when the female members of that group of 19 were interrogated no policewomen were present. Do you know of any police regulations which provide for the necessity of policewomen being present when female detainees were being questioned? MR MAMOME MR BRINK No, my question is, are you aware of any police regulations which provide that in the event of female detainees being questioned a policewoman must be present, that is my question. MR MAMOME MR BRINK Were any of these females searched to your knowledge? MR MAMOME Any person who has been taken to the cells should be searched. MR BRINK Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK RE-EXAMINTION BY MR VISSER MR MAMOME That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER MR MAMOME That is correct Chairperson MR VISSER As you were travelling, was he standing on your left or on the right hand side of the road? MR MAMOME He was on the right side Si,r of the road. MR VISSER You then stopped? MR MAMOME That is correct Si.r MR VISSER Did you know Oupa Makubalo yourself at that time? MR MAMOME That is correct Chairperson, I knew him. MR VISSER And you stopped because you identified him as Oupa Makubalo? MR MAMOME That is correct . MR VISSER Now was this near a corner or was it in the middle of a block of of of of houses? MR MAMOME It was on the third house before you are - before the corner but it was just near the corner MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR MAMOME That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON Thereafter he was shot at and he then ran away. MR MAMOME That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Now in which direction did he run, did he run up or down the street in which you your car was travelling or how did he run away? Where did he go? MR MAMOME He jumped a fence to the next street. MR VISSER Is that the street running parallel to the one in which you were you were driving the the Kombi? MR MAMOME That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER What did you then do? MR MAMOME I went forward, I took the direction where the Kombi was pointing, straight. MR VISSER Did you drive the Kombi forward? MR MAMOME That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you come to the corner? MR MAMOME Yes, Chair. MR VISSER What What happened then did you carry on did you stop did you ...[End of tape 1A - no follow-on sound] MR MAMOME I turned right. MR VISSER To the next corner or before that? MR MAMOME When I arrived at the next corner then Oupa came and then we met at the corner. MR VISSER Did you stop the Kombi? MR MAMOME That is correct Sir. MR VISSER Did you get out of the Kombi? MR MAMOME Yes I went out. MR VISSER Did you trip Oupa to be able to arrest him? MR MAMOME No Sir, I just went out of the car and then I went to him I grabbed him then I put him in the car. MR VISSER Did you see any of the others who were pursuing him at that stage? MR MAMOME They came individually to the Kombi. MR VISSER Thank you no further questions NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER JUDGE NGOEPE Taking a quick glance over the evidence and the things which we have put to you in respect of which you are allegedly implicated, particularly by Mr Motsamai. It seems to me that of all the people Mr Motsamai implicates, he implicates you the most in terms of the sheer number of incidents. I have seen no less than 15, 16 such incidents and I wonder why Mr Motsamai would do this taking into account that you are in good terms. MR MAMOME JUDGE NGOEPE And also in terms of the incidents of petrol bombing he implicates you the most in terms of the sheer number of incidents, it puzzles you. MR MAMOME That is worse Chairperson, it surprises me more. CHAIRPERSON MR MAMOME That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON It seems to me that all of these incidents were matters that would have been - were matters that certainly would have come to the notice of the police and probably have been investigated by them. MR MAMOME That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you make any effort to check the time and date of each of these incidents just to make sure that it was not a time when you were away? MR MAMOME CHAIRPERSON And had they? MR MAMOME I went on my own but I did not find them. CHAIRPERSON MR MAMOME I searched for dockets for all these incidents. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER Mr Tsoametsi is here Mr Chairman. JUDGE NGOEPE You still under oath Sir, MR TSOAMETSI (sworn states) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI Now Mr Tsoametsi, yesterday you were referred to the application of Mr Ngo and there the names of the people he enumerated as having participated in the abduction of or kidnap of Mr Mohapi was read out to you, do you remember that? MR TSOAMETSI I remember Sir. MR MEMANI Now I want to put to you what he in fact said in his evidence whilst he was testifying in chief. At page 30 A2 Mr Ngo said when asked "Were you alone when you kidnapped Mr Mohapi"? MR TSOAMETSI I heard him when he said that . MR MEMANI And again it was put to you that Mr Tsoametsi or rather Mr Ngo referred to Hilton Police station. Now I want to read to you what Mr Ngo said in chief at page 32 of A2. He said "I mean the police were arresting for public violence, that is Coetzee and them. When he was supposed to be released we got that information then they said that we should come after we have knocked off, that we should come and kidnap him. So they phoned the Hilton Police station where he was detained, either Hilton Police station or Bayswater police station". MR TSOAMETSI I did not know of that, Ngo is lying MR MEMANI And that he was detained at Bayswater police station coincides with where Mr Mohapi said he was detained. MR TSOAMETSI MR MEMANI MR TSOAMETSI Sir, everything that is said by Ngo is a lie, he knows where I was working. MR MEMANI Have you ever interrogated a white person? MR TSOAMETSI Yes, outside. MR MEMANI Outside what? MR TSOAMETSI The first one was at Koffiefontein where I was working, it was in the South Free State and at Gariepdam. Even if even when the white person was there and I did not understand I would chip in and say: "Repeat yourself, I want to understand". MR MEMANI MR TSOAMETSI Ngo would not know because he was not in that section, as much as I did not know what they did. MR MEMANI But it is implicit in your answer when you say: yes, that you did interview people outside, that you did not interview people at Fountains, white people at fountains. MR TSOAMETSI Sir, if it was necessary, because I work with a white person, if the white person is interrogating and I do not understand something and I really want to understand better I would ask him because the next day we're going to meet with a white person and say he said this and he said that. MR MEMANI MR TSOAMETSI When I am sitting with the white person this white person is interrogating another white person, he will carry on with the interrogation and this white person will provide answers. Now if there is something in his answers that I do not understand I will stop and say: "I do not understand that point", then it will be explained until I understand it. MR MEMANI Now should I accept it now that you yourself have never taken a lead role in an interrogating a white person? MR TSOAMETSI Take it that way Sir. MR MEMANI Now to which organisation did the white person interrogated belong? MR TSOAMETSI When we were at Koffiefontein this white man was working at the mines and there was violence, he was mishandling black people. Now it seemed as if violence was going to begin. MR MEMANI In what fashion did he mishandle black people? MR TSOAMETSI He was not talking to them properly he did not listen to their grieviances, work related grievances. MR MEMANI Now I asked you, did he belong to any political organisation? MR TSOAMETSI I do not remember. MR MEMANI Did you - the other white person you told us about two white persons, did he belong to any political organisation? MR TSOAMETSI No. ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible] security police at that stage at Koffiefontein and Gariepdam? MR TSOAMETSI Those areas were falling under Bloemfontein. MR MEMANI What did your job entail exactly in this white section? MR TSOAMETSI It was the security duty. When we have gone out I was supposed to be in a position to help where my white colleagues would not understand some of the things that were mentioned by the black people, now I had to explain the situation. MR MEMANI Now what did the white section do? MR TSOAMETSI The white section was was keeping an eye on areas where violence might erupt where conflicts existed because of race. Those were the things we started to - we wanted to stop before they can start. MR MEMANI MR TSOAMETSI I do not know Sir. MR MEMANI Now I put it to you that you only say that you worked in the white section because you wanted to dissociate yourself from Ngo and that becomes clear by your inability to tell us what you actually did in the white section. MR TSOAMETSI Sir, that is not true, Ngo knows very well. The position he is in now is difficult, everyone would go a long way to rescue himself. MR MEMANI MR TSOAMETSI It is true there has never been a conflict between the two of us. MR MEMANI MR TSOAMETSI MR MEMANI Is it also not true that thereafter you visited him to see how he was doing? ADV DE JAGER In the hospital or at Venter's house? MR MEMANI MR VISSER I just want to point out Mr Chairman, that no such evidence was ever given by Mr Ngo, either in regard to Mr Mamome or in regard to this witness. MR MEMANI MR TSOAMETSI JUDGE NGOEPE MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI They were together Mr Chair. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MEMANI I take this as something which arises after a witness has testified which you can put to a witness. I did not at any stage suggest that it was the evidence of Mr Ngo. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. MR TSOAMETSI No, I have never been there. MR MEMANI Those are my questions Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink have you already questioned this witness? MR BRINK NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR VISSER None thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER I call Lieutenant Shaw. I'm not I may mention that there are two affidavits of Lieutenant Shaw in Exhibit B or bundle B rather. The first is at page 38 and the second is at page 92. MR SHAW (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Shaw, were you attached to the South African Police? MR SHAW That is correct. MR VISSER And are you at present still in the South African Police Service or what is your position? MR SHAW I have left the police, I accepted a separation package and I am running my own business to-day. MR VISSER And with which rank did you retire from the police? MR SHAW Superintendent. MR VISSER You became aware of the fact that certain allegations regarding illegal acts were made against you? MR SHAW MR VISSER Did you together with others go to Pretoria? MR SHAW MR VISSER When you heard for the first time regarding allegations from the side of Ngo? MR SHAW MR VISSER At that stage Motsamai also accompanied this group to Pretoria. MR SHAW MR VISSER But you met them there? MR SHAW MR VISSER I wish to ask you as far as your knowledge goes, was there any influence exerted by any person to say anything in an affidavit or to sign an affidavit which had previously been prepared by somebody else? MR SHAW No, there was no influence exerted on me. MR VISSER You yourself made an affidavit dated 18 March 1997? MR SHAW MR VISSER Is that sworn affidavit now in front of you? MR SHAW MR VISSER Do you affirm the correctness and the truth of the content thereof? MR SHAW MR VISSER Is it also true that you later became aware of an application by Motsamai and of the fact that you were also mentioned in that application, that you were implicated there? MR SHAW Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Do you have that affidavit in front of you? MR SHAW Is that the one dated 13/5/97 E33 or P33, it wasn't quite clear? MR SHAW Yes, indeed. MR VISSER MR SHAW MR VISSER Mr Shaw, when did you join the South African police? MR SHAW 27 February 1971. MR VISSER And did you also become a member of the security branch in Bloemfontein? MR SHAW MR VISSER What was your exact task, in which section did you work during the period 1985/'86? MR SHAW I was under the command of Colonel Coetzee, we worked with black affairs in Bloemfontein. MR VISSER Now can you please give us a list of the names of the people in the black section during that period? MR SHAW MR VISSER How many Kochs were there? MR SHAW There were two Kochs, Warrant Officer P.A.C. Koch and L.D. Koch. MR VISSER MR SHAW Yes, Cronje. MR VISSER Erasmus? MR SHAW Yes, Erasmus. MR VISSER And yourself? MR SHAW MR VISSER Can you tell us approximately how many members in total were there in the security branch of Bloemfontein in '85/'86? MR SHAW Between 60 and 70 members. MR VISSER As far as you are implicated by Mr Ngo and Mr Motsamai in the Commission of any misdemeanours or any illegal or unlawful deeds, what is your reaction to that? MR SHAW Well, I deny those allegations. MR VISSER Let us quickly go through the separate cases or instances mentioned. Firstly as far as Mr Ngo is concerned, you are aware of the testimony he gave that he had been brought here from Pretoria and that in a meeting where you were present he was instructed to kill Venter, is that true? MR SHAW MR VISSER MR SHAW That is untrue. MR VISSER The suggestion was that he had to use an Old Mutual Insurance form and take that to discuss it with Mr Venter and once he had been admitted into the house he had to shoot him with a firearm which you had provided to him at the Hamilton shooting range. MR SHAW I deny the allegations they are untrue. MR VISSER Well, that is not necesarily everything that he had said but we know that Venter was murdered, that his house was emptied and all the goods stolen and that there was a later trial. Did you have anything whatsoever to do with this murder of Mr Venter? MR SHAW MR VISSER Was Mr Venter an activist? MR SHAW MR VISSER On page 23 of his application, Mr Ngo indicated that Erasmus and you had a problem with White Mohapi in that he every time he was taken to court was let off and you then gave Mr Ngo the instruction to monitor this person White Mohapi and to note all and report all his misdemeanours or movements so that you could succeed in putting him in jail permanently. CHAIRPERSON Can you give me the page reference again? MR VISSER ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON The page reference, you gave a page reference. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Yes, 23. MR SHAW MR VISSER MR SHAW I had nothing to do with the arrangements nor do I have any knowledge of the incident. MR VISSER The testimony is further that you and Erasmus gave instructions that Mr White Mohapi had to be abducted and assaulted, is that true? MR SHAW I deny that. MR VISSER On page 28 Mr Ngo said that you were present and participated in the assault and torture of members of the group of 19 people who had been transferred from Ladybrand to Bloemfontein in April '86, is that true? MR SHAW That is untrue. MR VISSER Were you present at any time during the interrogation of those persons? MR SHAW I have knowledge of the matter, the persons who were transported from Ladybrand to Bloemfontein and were interrogated by members of the security branch. My instructions came from Colonel du Plooy who was looking for people to assist them with the interrogation of these people and I made people available for this purpose. This now deals with the detention of these people in order to complete the necessary administrative forms. MR VISSER To complete the administrative matters, in other words the processing of these people? MR SHAW MR VISSER Did you yourself participate in any interrogation? MR SHAW No, I was not involved in any interrogation. MR VISSER MR SHAW As far as I know there were informants among them. MR VISSER Were they of your informants? MR SHAW MR VISSER Can you just tell us, can you remember how many of those 19 people were informants at that stage? MR SHAW CHAIRPERSON Sorry, when you said: "your informers", did you mean you personally or the security branch Bloemfontein? MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman, let me - I think the witness witness must rather answer reply to that. Mr Shaw if we refer to the informants and whose they were, if you say: "yes", did you mean that they were your personal informers or were they informers of whom you were aware had been or were informers of the security branch? MR SHAW MR VISSER But one of them was your own informer? MR SHAW MR VISSER With the regards to the allegation made by Mr Ngo of the raid and the arrest of 40 to 50 students, scholars at Botshabello in '86, it is alleged that you personally also participated in the assault or torture of these people. Now the first question I have for you is, did you have anything to do with this incident? MR SHAW I have no knowledge of the incident. MR VISSER Were you present during any processing or handling of these persons in Botshabello? MR SHAW I have no knowledge of the matter. MR VISSER If we may go over to Mr Motsamai on page 145 of bundle A, he referred to the murder of George Musi. This is a murder which was committed in Milk Street or Melk Street and he said that Coetzee and you gave him instructions and also to Mamome to murder George Musi. MR SHAW I have no knowledge of that matter, I do not know George Musi at all. Mr VISSER: And then he also said, this is now Mr Motsamai page 145 that you gave instructions that the house of Mrs Winnie Mandela should be attacked or that you participated in that, is that correct? MR SHAW MR VISSER And furthermore that you also gave instructions or participated in the attack on a clinic belonging to Mrs Winnie Mandela. MR SHAW MR VISSER I think you have already said it but as far there is any allegation of illegality, what is your reaction? MR SHAW I was not involved in these illegalities at all. MR VISSER Mr Shaw, if we can just chat for a moment about Mr Nelson Ngo. When did you become aware of him for the first time and is there something that you can tell us of what you can remember about his relationship with the police? MR SHAW I know that he was an informer of the branch. I did not deal with him myself, he was dealt with by superintendent Erasmus. I knew him, he was an informer of the office. I did not deal with him but superintendent Erasmus did. I know about the incident where he was attacked at the school. MR VISSER Can you recall in what year this took place? MR SHAW I cannot remember precisely. MR VISSER Continue please. MR SHAW And that he worked at the security branch as a student for a month or two before he went to the police college. MR VISSER And that was in '86? MR SHAW MR VISSER Until he left for the police training college in Pretoria? MR SHAW MR VISSER After he left Bloemfontein, we know this was in July of '86, did you ever hear from him or see see him again or have anything to do with him? MR SHAW I had nothing further to do with him. MR VISSER Who dealt with him? MR SHAW Superintendent Erasmus. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I do this with hesitation because it is relevant. But let me just ask you, do you know a person with the name Molefe, S.S. Molefe? MR SHAW No. MR VISSER He says that on the 25th of May 1993 you were present while he was assulated. Do you know anthing about this? MR SHAW I have no knowledge of this. MR VISSER I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS ... [No English translation] MR SHAW ... [No English translation] MR DU PLESSIS ...[No English translation] Was this in an official capacity? MR SHAW No, I knew that he came to the office and that we saw him there but I had no discussion with him or had anything to do with him. MR DU PLESSIS: Did he tell you what he was doing in Pretoria? MR SHAW No. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR STANDER Mr Shaw, the activities of White Mohapi, were you interested in this in your official capacity? MR SHAW MR STANDER Is it because you worked very closely with that specific section? MR SHAW MR STANDER So would you describe it that if he could be eliminated that you would have made an important breakthrough? MR SHAW MR STANDER Why would you say that? MR SHAW Because I did not believe in eliminating people or getting rid of them. MR STANDER I do not mean that you wanted him killed or dead but that if he could not be involved in the black townships that it would have been an important breakthrough? ADV DE JAGER I think the word: "eliminate" has a certain meaning in certain circles and you must take this into consideration when you use this word what meaning you attach to it. MR STANDER Thank you Mr Chairman, I will try to use another word. In order to neutralise him. Thank you to my learned friend. Would you say that to take him out of the community would have been an important breakthrough? MR SHAW Provision was made in the act for the detention of these persons to according to the act to detain them and in this way to remove them from the community. MR STANDER Did you on occasion make use of this in regard to Mr White Mohapi? Mr SHAW Not personally no. MR STANDER Why did you not do this? MR SHAW At times we could not get hold of him and at times we were looking for him and we wanted to take action against him in accordance with the Act but he just escaped. MR STANDER Is it true that at one stage you were interested in obtaining his services as an informer? MR SHAW I have no knowledge of that. MR STANDER Would you regard it as important to obtain a prominent person such as Mr White Mohapi as an informer? MR SHAW Could you repeat the question please? MR STANDER Would you regard it as important to obtain a prominent person such as Mr White Mohapi as an informer? MR SHAW MR STANDER Do you know of any attempts which were made in your department in order to obtain his services as an informer? MR SHAW Not that I have any knowledge of. MR STANDER Tell me, after or let me put it differently, do you know that in 1984 he was detained at Bayswater police station? MR SHAW MR STANDER So you can give us no evidence to the contrary, where he tells us that he was detained in terms of security legislation in that during that period? MR SHAW I have no knowledge of that. JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry, what what period was it when the witness was on a course in Pretoria? Can he just repeat that? MR SHAW If I have my dates correct it was from the first of April '84 up to and including or somewhere in June '84. JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you. MR STANDER Tell me, Mr Molefe he had just returned from prison at Robben Island, were you interested in his activities? MR SHAW I do not know the Molefe you are referring to. MR STANDER I understand that he was a prominent member of the P.A.C. at that stage. MR SHAW MR STANDER Mr Shaw, I am now going on to the incident where the group of 19 persons were interrogated. What was your personal involvement in this interrogation? MR SHAW I was not involved personally, I was only asked by Colonel du Plooy to make persons available for the processing of the detention forms of these people. MR STANDER Can you just describe shortly what procedure you followed when interrogations were done? MR SHAW Do you mean when I had to interrogate somebody? One would sit opposite one another and talk to one another and try to gain information . MR STANDER I asked this to the others as well but you must ...[indistinct], I have to do it again. What do you do if a person does not want to give his co-operation? MR SHAW If the person was in detention then he was returned to the cells and then after a day or two we would fetch him again and have discussions with him again. MR STANDER And if he was not being detained? MR SHAW If he was not being detained we would just release him and we would see whether wo would get sufficient information regarding this matter from other sources. MR STANDER And if it was extremely necessary or essential information that you required, what did you do then? MR SHAW I would definitely not go over to violence or torture, we would have tried to convince him by just talking to him. MR STANDER And you did nothing else but talk to him? MR SHAW MR STANDER MR VISSER MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER I hear what you are saying to me. It is true that one can argue this aspect but as I said to you yesterday I would just like to give the witness the opportunity to give his opinion. CHAIRPERSON He has said he would never have used violence. We are here, may I remind you Mr Stander, to go into the application of Ngo and Motsamai. We are not here to conduct an investigation of the security branch or matters of that nature and we do not propose to permit prolonged cross-examination on matters that are not applicable to the applications before us. MR STANDER: I hear what you are saying to me. With great respect, we are dealing with the application of Mr Motsamai where he alleges that assaults did take place in the group of 19. I am ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER: CHAIRPERSON Will you please put your questions otherwise your cross-examination will be terminated. MR STANDER As it pleases you Mr Chairman. I want to put it to you Mr Shaw that the procedure which was followed during the interrogation was not as calm as you are pretending, violence was used. That is what I want to put to you. Mr SHAW: I have no knowledge of any violence that was used on these people. MR STANDER MR SHAW No. MR STANDER And if Motsamai says that he assaulted some of them, then according to you he is also lying, do I understand you correctly? MR SHAW That is his version. MR STANDER But do you have any reason to distrust him when he says he did assault some of these people? MR SHAW Well, if he says he did then he did but I have no knowledge of any assaults that took place. MR STANDER He did not only say that he did he also said the other members of the group who were involved in the interrogation. MR SHAW I have no knowledge of the assaults. MR STANDER MR SHAW I said I have no knowledge . MR STANDER I have no further questions, thank you NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI MR SHAW Is that the one which is marked P19? MR MEMANI That is the one that is the one which deals with Mr Ngo, its dated the 18th of March. CHAIRPERSON It is headed Amnesty Application M.N. Ngo. MR MEMANI That is correct Mr Chair. Have you read that affidavit? MR SHAW MR MEMANI And you are satisfied that the affidavit was drafted according with your instructions in all material respects? MR SHAW MR MEMANI And I wish to refer you now to page 39, paragraph 3.2 where you say that "Ngo was recruited to work as an in informant for our branch and from time to time I saw - I dealt with him in that capacity" MR SHAW MR MEMANI And so you did in fact deal with Ngo and not only Erasmus? MR SHAW Erasmus was the main handler of Mr Ngo and on occasion it was one occasion when I saw him and it was at the request of Mr Erasmus. MR MEMANI And you further say that "I have further knowledge that at one stage he was attacked by his co-scholars or fellow scholars" MR SHAW MR MEMANI "and that he was taken to the hospital or had to be taken to the hospital by members of our branch" MR SHAW MR MEMANI MR SHAW I have no knowledge of Mr Venter nor do I know where Mr Nelson Ngo found himself after this incident. MR MEMANI MR SHAW I do know that Superintendent Erasmus was concerned about Mr Ngo but I do not know what the arrangements were that he made regarding Mr Ngo. MR MEMANI Do you know that he made arrangements for his safety thereafter? MR SHAW I have no knowledge of that. MR MEMANI "Thereafter he completed his school career at Ladybrand after which he joined the SAP as a member" MR SHAW MR MEMANI MR SHAW After he had been sworn in as a member of the police I regarded him as a member of the police, that is correct. MR MEMANI Mr Shaw did you have any differences with Mr Ngo? MR SHAW No, I had no differences with him. MR MEMANI MR SHAW MR MEMANI If I may have a moment Mr Chair. Mr SHAW: MR MEMANI It was put at some stage to Mr Ngo that he was never a member of the security branch and my question to you is, you did not at any stage give instructions that Mr Ngo was never a member of the security branch? CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Do you understand the question? MR SHAW MR MEMANI Now Mr Shaw, it was put to Mr Ngo that he was never a member of the security branch. CHAIRPERSON Mr Memani, is your question simply did you at an6y time say that he was not a member of the security branch? MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Well, let it be put be put the way you prefer Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Did you ever tell anybody that he was not a member of the security branch ? MR SHAW Mr Ngo, was never a member of the security branch. MR MEMANI MR SHAW If I could just explain. Mr Ngo was a member of the police, he was at Batu. If I remember correctly he was on their register and he was not transferred but he assisted security branch members with Colonel Erasmus in identifying suspects until such time as he was transferred to the college. MR MEMANI To your knowledge, did Mr Ngo report at Batu police station? MR SHAW As for as my knowledge is concerned he reported to the security offices where he came and did his job but he worked as a student at security branch. MR MEMANI MR SHAW MR MEMANI Did you have any differences with Mr Motsamai? MR SHAW No, I had no differences with Mr Motsamai MR MEMANI MR SHAW Yes, that is correct. MR MEMANI MR SHAW No, I had no differences with Mr Motsamai. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR SHAW (s.u.o.) MR MEMANI Mr Shaw, did you not in conjunction with Erasmus, arrange for the employment of Ngo despite the fact that he had a criminal record? MR SHAW That is correct. MR MEMANI Did you not, after Ngo was attacked, take steps to have him transferred to Ladybrand? MR SHAW CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] it after he appeared did you? MR MEMANI I said did he not make arrangements to have Mr Ngo transferred to Ladybrand? CHAIRPERSON After something. MR MEMANI After Ngo was attacked. CHAIRPERSON Oh. MR MEMANI Did you not, together with Erasmus, make arrangements for the safety of Ngo after he was attacked? MR SHAW MR MEMANI Now Mr Shaw, I just want to read a letter contained in bundle B, page 83, written by Ngo which says "Application for salary adjustment from standard eight scale to standard ten scale Since 1986.02.10 I have been a member of theforce. I was appointed with a standard eight certificate. In 1986.01.01 I however passed my matric. I hereby apply for an adjustment in my salary. A copy of my standard ten certificate is hereby attached" CHAIRPERSON Is that letter correct Mr Memani? MR MEMANI And I will also wish to refer you then to answer the Chairperson's question to page 63 of bundle B. This is a letter which is signed by a lieutenant C. Smith who was I think the divisional commander and it says "transfer for safety reasons, number S085H Ngo" INTERPRETER The interpreter's couldn't get the name. "from the uniform branch to Batu station as indicated". Paragraph five: "This member" paragraph one: "This member, on 86.02.10 joined the force and has since been on the staff register of Batu. This office temporarily employed him in consultation with the district commander" [if the interpreter could hear correctly] Do you agree with the contents of that letter? [Transcriber's own translation] MR SHAW Is that the one on page 63? MR MEMANI Yes. MR SHAW CHAIRPERSON Now we go back to 83 and you can perhaps answer my question. He says he joined the force on the 10th of February 1986 and was appointed with a standard eight certificate. He then says that on the 1st of January 1986 he passed his matric, is that correct? MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON So he passed matric before he joined the police force when he was appointed on a standard eight certificate? MR MEMANI It is so Mr Chair, that he passed - I would say that he passed matric on the 1st of January, the certificate would be issued and be valid as from the 1st of January but it may be that at the time when he was actually employed the certificate was not available. And at that date the certificate was now available and he was being employed on the basis of his standard ten certificate. CHAIRPERSON On his standard eight certificate? MR MEMANI Yes, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON So you say he had passed matric by the 1st of January 1986? MR MEMANI That is correct Mr Chair. It would follow therefore that Mr Ngo was employed not in March but in February and even the divisional commander accepted him as being employed as from February 1986? MR VISSER MR MEMANI I think that you are continuing to contribute because this witness has just said that although Ngo was registered with Batu he in fact reported at security offices in Bloemfontein. MR VISSER MR MEMANI This was the evidence of Mr Shaw before the tea adjournment. I specifically put that to him and he said it was correct. MR VISSER MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, what does he want us to look at and see there. He must refer us to what his his referring us there. ADV DE JAGER Is it relevant whether he was appointed in February or March? The letter also states that while he was at Batu he was employed in Bloemfontein police station. CHAIRPERSON ADV DE JAGER Ja, in Bloemfontein. MR MEMANI Are you addressing the question to me Mr Chair? ADV DE JAGER Ja. MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER As far as the witness said in his evidence, he said he had been employed as a student constable and then he went to college and after he became a constable, he had no rank before he attended the college. MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI But all along Mr Chair we have been told, including yourself, that Mr Ngo only became a member on the 11th of March 1986 as a student constable and that ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER he became a member a month earlier according to the correspondence. MR MEMANI That is that is my point. ADV DE JAGER ...[inaudible] conceded that the letter is correct so ...[intervention] MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI And so why am I being asked all these questions? CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI So you agree that Mr Ngo became a member on the 10th of February 1986? MR SHAW MR MEMANI And do you also agree that Mr Ngo was employed with you assistance? MR SHAW No, I do not agree with that. MR MEMANI My instructions are that you actually took him to ...[inaudible] police station where you assisted with the completion of the application form. MR SHAW No, I deny that. MR MEMANI Do you know a Mr Shedile? MR SHAW Is he a member of the police force? MR MEMANI That is correct. MR SHAW MR MEMANI And my instructions are that you were present when he gave the form to Ngo. MR SHAW I deny that I was not present at all. MR MEMANI MR SHAW I have no knowledge of that fact. MR MEMANI Is it your evidence that you have no knowledge at all that security branch was involved in making safety arrangements for him. MR SHAW Yes, that is correct, I have no knowledge of any arrangements made by them. MR MEMANI Are you not aware of the fact that security branch Bloemfontein took steps to have Ngo removed from Bloemfontein to Ladybrand? MR SHAW No, I have no knowledge of that fact. MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER Pages 63 and 64 relate to the period before he went to the college, a few months before he went to the college. MR MEMANI Yes, its its actually the letter that I will refer to that deals with this. He says at paragraph 3 "The leader was well known in the black community" "the member". "the member is well known in the black community and the fact that he is now a member of the force quickly became known" paragraph 4: "This office over the past period received information to the effect that the radical elements in the black community were planning to act against the member in the form of a necklace murder" paragraph 5: "This office recommends that the member without delay be removed from Bloemfontein or transferred from Bloemfontein to a district where he is not known, but preferably in the Ladybrand district" Now this letter is signed by lieutenant colonel C. Smith, do you know this person? MR SHAW Yes, I know Colonel Smith. MR MEMANI Where did he work? MR SHAW At the security branch as Divisional Commander, Commissioner. Sorry, he was the Divisional Commander of the security branch. MR MEMANI MR SHAW That is correct, he was the Divisional Commander of the security branch. CHAIRPERSON Before you go away from these letters Mr Memani, perhaps you would like to refer to the letter at 63 - the letter at page 63 was written on the 18th of June 1986, the letter at page 64 was written apparently, best I can read my copy, on the 19th of June 1986. MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER And according to paragraph 1 that should be the position up to the 4th of July 1986 when he should report " he had to report for services as student for training" MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER MR MEMANI Is it correct Mr Shaw that you knew Mr Motsamai as well? MR SHAW MR MEMANI MR SHAW MR MEMANI Is it correct that you also know a person who's known as Nicos? MR SHAW MR MEMANI Now, my instructions from Nicos are that you used to visit him at his house, rather at his shop. MR SHAW I deny that. MR MEMANI I believe that Mr Molefe, Serame Molefe testified to the same effect. MR SHAW MR MEMANI Nor were you at his shop? MR SHAW That is correct. MR MEMANI MR SHAW MR MEMANI And you do not know anything about a child who died in the vicinity of his shop? MR SHAW MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases, those are my questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Mr. Brink MR BRINK No, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER None thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER MR VISSER JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Shaw, you mentioned a few people who worked with you in the then so-called black section. Were all of you directly under Colonel Coetzee? MR SHAW That is correct. JUDGE NGOEPE That would include Motsamai, Mamome, Ramosoeu, Mtyhala as well? MR SHAW JUDGE NGOEPE In other words there was nobody between them and Colonel Coetzee? They they were taking orders directly and they were answerable directly to colonel Coetzee? MR SHAW That is correct. JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON What section was this? MR SHAW We referred to it as the black section. That was the section which dealt with all the riots and black matters and black affairs and they investigated those. CHAIRPERSON There were no Captains or Majors or anything in that section, who were between Colonel Coetzee and the Constables or the Warrant Officers ? MR SHAW Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] MR VISSER P's, yes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON The last exhibit I have is P65. MR VISSER Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER That is my recollection. I believe it must be P66 Mr Chairman but I will check on that and I will come back to you. CHAIRPERSON Well, shall we put it in for the time being and if we have to change it we will do so. MR VISSER "The letter makes provision for a transfer of Detective Constable Morakile, M-o-r-a-k-i-l-e" The letter is dated the 3rd of June 1986 and if you look over the page Mr Chairman, you will see paragraph numbered 1 there: "The above mentioned member on 23 June 1986, assumed duties at security branch Bloemfontein " ...[inaudible] it was the 21st. It turned out to be in fact to be the 23rd Mr Chairman, I just wanted to draw your attention to that difference. And it deals of course, if you again revert to the 1st page, with: "Transfer from the stock theft unit Wepener to the security branch Bloemfontein" CHAIRPERSON My experience is they get put into boxes and then put away in the most unlikely places. MR VISSER The next witness I wish to call is Captain Paul van den Berg. MR MEMANI MR VISSER Mr Chairman, the short answer is that they they are coded reference numbers. A, that reference number will refer to A just above - the "Divisional Commander" and B will refer to the reference number of the "District Commander" MR MEMANI I think I was referring US169856N/4 ADV DE JAGER It is in the heading of the letter Mr Visser. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] lines above, it would seem that that might be the number of sergeant Morakile "Transfer" and the same number appears. ...[inaudible] that mgiht be either the number given to the transaction or to the person. It appears in both places. MR VISSER MR MEMANI MR VISSER MR MEMANI MR VISSER If he wanted to make a point of this, if this was important to his case he should have contacted - he should have made arrangements for the for documentation to be obtained Mr Chairman, with great respect. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER I am indebted to you Mr Chairman. The witness is Captain van der Berg. MR VAN DEN BERG (sworn states) [MR VISSER EXPLAINS MICROPHONES TO MR VAN DEN BERG] CHAIRPERSON Carry on. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr van den Berg, were you a member of the South African Police Service and are you at present a member of the S.A.P.? MR VAN DEN BERG That is correct. MR VISSER What is your rank? MR VAN DEN BERG Captain. MR VISSER And when did you join the South African Police? MR VAN DEN BERG 31 March 1959. MR VISSER And where were you then? MR VAN DEN BERG In South West Africa Namibia. MR VISSER And did you go over to the security branch and if so when? MR VAN DEN BERG During 1960 in Windhoek. MR VISSER Were you transferred to the RSA? MR VAN DEN BERG During December '82 I was transferred to Bloemfontein. MR VISSER And did you join the security branch here? MR VAN DEN BERG CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR VISSER ...[inaudible] certain Mr Chairman. MR VAN DEN BERG December '82. MR VISSER In what section did you work here, that is from '82 onwards? MR VAN DEN BERG The investigative unit. MR VISSER And who was your commanding officer in that unit? MR VAN DEN BERG Colonel Coetzee and later Colonel du Plooy. MR VISSER In December '85 you went to Botshabelo where a sub-branch of the security branch was. MR VAN DEN BERG MR VISSER You were the commanding officer? MR VAN DEN BERG MR VISSER And who was your second in command? MR VAN DEN BERG When I started there it was only I and Warrant Officer Mbanjani. MR VISSER And did any further members join later? MR VAN DEN BERG MR VISSER Can you tell us who they were? MR VAN DEN BERG Sergeant Kotze, Sergeant du Plessis. Kotze, du Plessis, Sergeant Phadi spelt P-h-a-d-i. MR VISSER Anybody else? MR VAN DEN BERG Constable Mathanya. MR VISSER How do you spell that? MR VAN DEN BERG M-a-t-h-a-n-y-a. MR VISSER Anyone else? MR VAN DEN BERG Constable Lehapela, L-e-h-p-l-a. MR VISSER Anyone else? MR VAN DEN BERG A day later some more came. MR VISSER Constable Lesale, do you know him? MR VAN DEN BERG Yes. MR VISSER Was he ever a member of that sub unit? MR VAN DEN BERG No, never. MR VISSER And then reference was made to a Sergeant Smith. MR VAN DEN BERG MR VISSER And then? MR VAN DEN BERG He committed suicide. He killed his wife and then committed suicide. MR VISSER But the fact is he was only there for a short while? MR VAN DEN BERG MR VISSER It is alleged Mr van den Berg that on page 31, by person by the name of Nelson Ngo, that in 1986 there was an incident in which a raid was made and a group of 40 to 45 activists were arrested and brought to the Botshabelo police station. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR VISSER The page number is 31 Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON 31? MR VISSER 31, yes. I want to ask you, you were there at grassroots level or at at Botshabelo from '85 onwards. What was the frequency of incidents where people were arrested in groups, raids that were executed as from '85 to mid '86, was it something that was exceptional or what was your position? MR VAN DEN BERG During '86 several groups of youth were arrested and detained. MR VISSER If I merely say to you reference is made to an incident where 40 to 45 people were arrested, would you due to those facts be able to identify an incident in your mind? MR VAN DEN BERG No. MR VISSER Is that because it occurred quite often? MR MEMANI MR VISSER Mr van den Berg, you said that you cannot identify this specific incident, we'll leave it there. ADV DE JAGER MR VISSER Yes, thank you for reminding me ADV DE JAGER It may be that Mr Memani will follow this up. I think he objects to you mentioning the name of the school. MR VISSER Can I just mention it, perhaps he does not object. On page 31 reference is made to students of a K-g-a-u-w-o high school who were arrested, does that ring a bell? MR VAN DEN BERG There was unrest, that was amongst others others one of the schools where there was unrest, and it is apparently of those students that were arrested. MR VISSER However it may be, can you just tell the Committee members that when such a raid was made while you were at Botshabello how were these people dealt with and processed and where did it take place? Can you just sketch us a picture of how such a typical raid and further processing would have been done. If you will just keep in mind that what you are saying is being interpreted so if you could just wait a little while and break your sentences so that interpretation can be done. MR VAN DEN BERG At that stage the people were detained in terms of Section 50 of the Internal Security Act after the state of emergency was announced they were detained because there was unrest. Such action took place as a result of the information we had where people were identified as culprits or and they were responsible for the unrest. Lists were made available to people who assisted us in arresting these people, then they were either taken to back of the charge office but in most cases it was done in an open space between the cells and the police station, it was done there. MR VISSER If you say an open area or space, what do you mean by that? MR VAN DEN BERG A section between the charge office and the cells which is closed on the one side by a wall but on the front of the police station there is a safety or security gate, a trellis gate . MR VISSER So members of the public who moved towards the charge office, would they be able to see into this courtyard or whatever you want to call it. Would they be able to see into it? MR VAN DEN BERG MR VISSER Regarding this group once again, when you became aware that you were being implicated in this incident, did you do any thing in order to try to establish exactly which incident is being referred to? MR VAN DEN BERG MR VISSER What did you do? MR VAN DEN BERG Somebody at Botshabelo, Sergeant Matina, I phoned him and asked him to look at or to establish at the charge office whether the warrants were still available, were there detention warrants at that stage. Whether these specific warrants which were filed with the normal warrants, whether they were still available and he informed me that as a result of a routine destruction these things were no longer available. MR VISSER On page 35, it is being stated by Mr Ngo that the members of the security police, as he called them, and the unrest unit who took part in the assault of on these persons who we are referring to were among others Captain Tsomela and then mention is made of Warrant Officer van der Berg, Warrant Officer Mbanjani Mbanjani and then Katlake Sergeant Smith, Thulo, Sesedinyane and Lesale. Now speaking for yourself, did you assault people there at any stage people who were arrested and processed? MR VAN DEN BERG No. MR VISSER Would you have seen any need in assaulting anybody? MR VAN DEN BERG No. MR VISSER If I may suggest it to you, did you not want to obtain information from these people whom you detained? MR VAN DEN BERG The people were detained preventatively as a result of the unrest situation. We already that they were responsible for the unrest and we did not necessarily require any further information from them. MR VISSER Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. Captain van der Berg, were you aware that Mr Ngo was transferred to Pretoria for training? MR VAN DEN BERG No, I did not know Constable Ngo. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR STANDER I have no questions thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI MR VAN DEN BERG CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Kotze. And do you recall that at some stage he used to drive a four by four Datsun vehicle? MR VAN DEN BERG MR MEMANI MR VAN DEN BERG MR MEMANI Did you make enquiries about the occurrence books? MR VAN DEN BERG I asked sergeant Matinya to check all existing documentation and he gave me the assurance that the documentation of that time no longer existed. MR MEMANI Did you ask him to look for the cell register? MR VAN DEN BERG MR MEMANI Did you specifically ask him to go and have a look for the OB of the time? MR VAN DEN BERG I asked him to go to the station commander and to look if there was any documentation such as the warrants and the occurrence books to determine who was detained and when and he reported back to me and said that they no longer existed. MR MEMANI Now that having failed, did you ask any of the persons who were implicated whether they could recollect the incident which Mr Ngo might be referring to? MR VAN DEN BERG I did not ask them. MR MEMANI Those those are my questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI JUDGE NGOEPE MR VAN DEN BERG I did not ask Commissioner Tsomela about this. ADV DE JAGER Sergeant Kotze, or whatever his rank was, how long was he there in Botshabelo? MR VAN DEN BERG ADV DE JAGER MR VAN DEN BERG CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser? MR VISSER No re-examination thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VAN DEN BERG At that stage Botshabello was a sub branch. They fell under the head office and on occasion there were members who were involved in such operations. I cannot recall or join, associate this specific operation with this specific incident where people arrived there. As a result of the size of the area we made use of usually made use of people from the unrest unit or from the people of Bloemfontein. CHAIRPERSON So this was quite a common occurrence of Bloemfontein being there? MR VAN DEN BERG CHAIRPERSON I think he said they were also assisted by members of the riot unit was that the unrest unit? MR VAN DEN BERG CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] also happened quite often? MR VAN DEN BERG Yes, the unrest unit gave the protection and that is why they were involved. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER You are excused thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Visser is there a light at the end of the tunnel? MR VISSER I detect a slight note of criticism but I must say ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE MR VISSER JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you. ADV DE JAGER Mr Visser, have you possibly discussed matters with your colleagues? Do they wish you to call all the witnesses? MR VISSER: TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU (sworn states) MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I refer you to Bundle page 35 as well as page 106. Mr Ramosoeu, are you Titsi Hendrik Ramosoeu? MR RAMOSOEU That is correct MR VISSER Were you a member of the South African police? MR RAMOSOEU That is correct I still am one. MR VISSER INTERPRETER Still a member. What is your rank please? MR RAMOSOEU MR VISSER Now, did you join the security branch in Bloemfontein at some stage? MR RAMOSOEU That is correct, in 1982. MR VISSER And were you placed elsewhere to perform your duties? MR RAMOSOEU MR VISSER Yes, and did you go - did you remain in Bloemfontein at all times? MR RAMOSOEU If I remember well, in 1985 - it was the beginning of 1984, I started working at Brandfort. MR VISSER How many members of the ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Soryy, can we clarify that? How did you get to work at Brandfort? MR RAMOSOEU We had an office in Brandfort because of Mrs Winnie Mandela. It was during the time when she was staying in Brandfort. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but did you stay in Brandfort? MR RAMOSOEU I was not staying there, I travelled to Brandfort every morning and came back in the afternoon. MR VISSER And how many other members of the security branch were there at Brandfort? MR RAMOSOEU MR VISSER Now do you know Mr Ngo? MR RAMOSOEU Yes, I know him. MR VISSER Was Mr Ngo ever in Brandfort where he assisted you in your duties? MR RAMOSOEU Not at all. MR VISSER Did he ever come to Brandfort to participate in any operation together with you? MR RAMOSOEU Not at all not with me. MR VISSER Now Mr Ngo has implicated you as a person who was present when Mr Venter was murdered here in Bloemfontein in February 1989. MR RAMOSOEU MR VISSER Do you know where Mr Venter lived? MR RAMOSOEU I have a little light. I think it was somewhere around Universitas suburb. MR VISSER Mr Ngo says that you and Mamome transported HIM by vehicle to the house of Mr Venter on the day that he was instructed to go and murder Mr Venter, is that true? MR RAMOSOEU MR VISSER MR RAMOSOEU I would dispute that Sir because I do not know Mr Venter. I only heard that Mr Ngo killed a white person in town and it it is the same person with whom he stayed. MR VISSER MR RAMOSOEU MR VISSER Did you have anything at all to do with this group of nineteen arrested persons? MR RAMOSOEU If I remember well, if ever it happened that I had any contact with them, the kind of work I used to do was filling in the forms we wanted to know about the person he historical background when he was born such things. MR VISSER Yes, but can you remember this particular incident of the group of 19 people where there were people like Oupa Makubalo and Mr Oliphant and the other witnesses who testified here as victims. Do you remember ...[End of tape 2B - no follow-on sound] MR RAMOSOEU Not that it was from the security branch, I was trying to help the investigator of the case who was handling the the docket. JUDGE NGOEPE How far did you go with or let me put it this way, what did the investigations reveal with regard to possible culprits? MR RAMOSOEU According to my knowledge the we were not successful to find the suspects and there were no people who were arrested. JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON How far is Brandfort from Bloemfontein. MR STANDER If I might answer this question, its about 55 five kilometres. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. So it would take you about half an hour to drive? MR STANDER That is so Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON What time did you go there in the morning? You said after tea, what time would that be? MR RAMOSOEU It would happen that the my time of departure would vary at times it would be 9 o'clock quarter past nine, half past nine in the morning. CHAIRPERSON And your time of return? MR RAMOSOEU Mainly I would arrive in Bloemfontein half past three quarter to four? CHAIRPERSON Did you have an office in Brandfort? MR RAMOSOEU Yes, Chairperson, there was an office inside the police station which which was part of the police station. CHAIRPERSON MR RAMOSOEU That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON That would have been from about 10 o'clock clock in the morning till 3 o'clock in the afternoon what about the rest of the day? MR RAMOSOEU My work entailed tapping the phones. There is cap to connect the cassette or I would listen to the cassette and translate it and write down. CHAIRPERSON Were the phones recorded when you were not there? Was there a machine it recorded everything that was said? MR RAMOSOEU That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON So you would spend most of your time listening to cassettes? MR RAMOSOEU That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON Thanks. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK MR RAMOSOEU That is correct Sir, because at times they would speak Xhosa at times. In many instances they would speak English but in many instances they would speak Xhosa. MR BRINK ...[inaudible] MR RAMOSOEU Yes, Sir. MR BRINK Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK MR VISSER Just one question Mr Chairman on this oath. Mr Ramosoeu did you - is your understanding of the oath that you took when you went to the security branch ...[intervention] MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, I can see that this is going to be leading. I think the question ought not to be leading. I think what Mr What Mr Mr Visser can ask is what was his understanding, not to suggest an understanding to to the witness. CHAIRPERSON Let us hear the question before we decide whether its leading or not. Was it leading Mr Visser? MR VISSER MR RAMOSOEU That is correct Sir. MR VISSER Did you understand your oath also to entail that it would prohibit you from giving evidence concerning your work in a Court of Law? MR RAMOSOEU If it was an evidence which is related to my work, I will not be able to disclose . MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED COMMITTEE ADJOURNS HENDRIK JAKOBUS BESTER (sworn states) MR VISSER Mr Bester, are you a former member of the South African police? MR BESTER MR VISSER And when you left the police was your rank that of superintendent? MR BESTER MR VISSER When did you join the police? MR BESTER On the 31st of January 1969. MR VISSER And did you join the security branch in Bloemfontein? MR BESTER Yes, on the 11th of April. MR VISSER Prior to your coming here ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR VISSER The witness said the 11th of April 1989. Mr Bester, before the 11th of April 1989, where were you then? MR BESTER Since 1985 until I joined the security police or security branch I was doing duty there but I resorted under the detective branch of Bloemfontein. MR VISSER Where did you do your duty? Where were you, into which section were you divided? MR BESTER I worked at the security branch. MR VISSER And your present position is? MR BESTER At present I am no longer with the police but at the Technikon. MR VISSER MR BESTER That is correct. ADV DE JAGER The fact that you were working at the security branch, for all purposes, does that mean that you were part of the security branch ? MR BESTER No, the reason was that I was doing investigative work at the security branch, I investigated cases. MR VISSER MR BESTER No. MR VISSER You were a detective? MR BESTER Yes. MR VISSER MR BESTER All that I did at Brandfort at that stage is if there were criminal cases I had to investigate those cases at Brandfort. MR VISSER So you were not stationed there? MR BESTER No, I was never stationed there. MR VISSER MR BESTER No, Tax and I worked together. Tax did investigative work with me and for the record he is Masoloane. MR VISSER Can you spell that for us please? MR BESTER M-a-s-o-l-o-a-n-e, I think that is the correct spelling. MR VISSER did you have anything to do with groups known as the: "Eagles Club" or the: "Anti Comrades Club" or the "Three Millions Gang"? MR BESTER No, I had nothing to do with them. MR VISSER It has been said by Mr Ngo that on a certain day you were present in the evening when Warrant Officer Ramosoeu spoke to two people, a certain Pitso Pelo and a certain Mr Ntsobole Mahlonja. We have already spelt it before. MR BESTER No, I never worked ever with him in Brandfort. I never drove in any vehicle with him. The people who are being mentioned sound familiar but I did not know them. CHAIRPERSON Where is this? MR VISSER Page 42 bundle A Mr Chairman, the last paragraph. It starts with the words during 1986. If it - you have answered a section of the question but I just want to put it to you that if anybody implies or says that you and Warrant Officer Ramosoeu together with Mr Ngo were between or met people between Bultfontein and Hoopstad in the evening? MR BESTER MR VISSER Do you know anything about a case or an incident where Mr Ramosoeu tried to bribe someone or more people to kill a person called Katoy? MR BESTER I know nothing about that. MR VISSER Did you have anything to do with the monitoring of Mrs Winnie Mandela in Bloemfontein? MR BESTER No, I had nothing to do with that. MR VISSER Did you have anything to do ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Did you mean to say in Bloemfontein? MR VISSER No Mr Chairman, in Brandfort. If I said Bloemfontein that was a mistake and I appreciate you correcting me. MR VISSER Did you have anything to do with an attack on the clinic or the house of Mrs Winnie Mandela at Brandfort? MR BESTER No I did not. MR VISSER Did you have anything to do with anything other than an attack on the house or clinic of Mrs Mandela? MR BESTER When the house was attacked I was the investigative officer. I could however not succeed in tracing any suspects and the case was later closed as unsolved. And the clinic, as regards the clinic, the same morning that it burned down I visited it and reported back to Major Coetzee at that stage and the docket was transferred to the Detective Branch at Brandfort and they took the matter further. MR VISSER That is the evidence in chief thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, no questions for the witness. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER Mr Bester, did you have anything to do with a certain Mr White Mohapi? MR BESTER MR STANDER Were you present at the stage when an arrest took place after Mr Ngo apparently or was apparently assaulted? MR BESTER MR STANDER Were you also involved in that case with the investigation thereof? MR BESTER I will - I could possibly have been involved indirectly. I can really not remember whether I was the investigative officer but I was involved indirectly because I did assist with the interrogation. MR STANDER MR BESTER MR STANDER Have you any knowledge of such occurrence? MR BESTER I have no knowledge of it. MR STANDER Apart from this particular occasion, did you ever thereafter have anything to do with Mr White Mohapi again perhaps with regard to the investigative work that you had to do? MR BESTER If you just give me a chance to see if I can remember. All that I can remember is that on occasion I saw Mr White Mohapi in the street where we greeted one another and chatted for a few minutes. I cannot think that I had anything to do with him in official capacity? MR STANDER Were you the only investigative officer there who did so called posted service? MR BESTER I just want to tell you, let me just rectify this. The period we are referring to was in '85 and I was part of an investigative team which had not yet been sub-divided. It was Colonel Ben, Sergeant van Wyk, myself, Constable Strydom. I think that these were the people. I just want to tell you that when I was posted, sub divided, it was after the 11th of June 1986 the year thereafter. MR STANDER And tell me at the stage when you were doing the investigative work, did you do so under the protection of the security branch, in other words your investigative work? MR BESTER MR STANDER What kind of investigative work did you do while you were associated with the security branch? MR BESTER The work that I did there was all unrest related, matters which dealt with unrest, stone throwing, intimidation, everything in that group of matters. MR STANDER Am I correct if I say that if there were matters regarding Mr White Mohapi, it would have formed part of your daily duties? MR BESTER If it was unrest related yes, but otherwise no. MR STANDER MR BESTER I understand the question. As I have told you I cannot remember everything but I cannot remember that I arrested him again or that I was part of the group that did so, I can really not remember that. MR STANDER It is also my instructions that, not specifically you but the Investigative Team as a whole, sometimes withheld information or twisted the information so that he had to be charged or that other circumstances had to prevail around him which was not the correct position. What would you say about this? MR BESTER I have no personal feud with Mr White Mohapi, I would never have been part of such a thing and I cannot see the use of even trying something like this. MR STANDER Would you have said that it would have been in the interest of the security situation at that stage to possibly have him detained? MR BESTER I was not part of the security branch or part of the plans that were made at that stage. As I have testified, I only did investigative work, I received a docket and I investigated the matter. I would not fabricate matters or cases against people, I had too much work to do that. CHAIRPERSON MR BESTER MR STANDER And therefore I assume that certainly you or members of the investigating team would have done everything in your power even exceeding your power in order, in the case of persons of his stature, to have them accused. MR BESTER If they had committed crimes, yes. MR STANDER MR BESTER If you wish to repeat, yes you may do so. MR STANDER MR BESTER Mr Chair, that is not true. MR STANDER I also wish to state to you Sir, lastly, that upon more than one occasion you were either present or involved when Mr White Mohapi was arrested, assaulted and maltreated. MR BESTER Mr Chair, I vehemently deny that, it is untrue. MR STANDER I have no further questions to the witness thank you Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI MR BESTER MR MEMANI MR BESTER Only in April 1989 did I start working at the security branch as a member of the security branch and then I was included in the investigating team of the security branch where we also investigated matters involving political motives. Unrest in my opinion is not always politically motivated. I investigated blundering which was not of a political nature in my opinion. MR MEMANI MR BESTER Yes, I would agree with you. I was given the instruction to investigate the matter, specifically the house. In the case of the clinic I said it was not of a political nature and it was transferred to the detective branch at Brandfort. MR MEMANI How was it determined that it was not of a political nature? MR BESTER Are you referring to the clinic? MR MEMANI Yes. MR BESTER MR MEMANI And what prompted you to go there in the first place? MR BESTER I received an instruction from the senior officer to go there because the house had allegedly been burning. I did the preliminary investigation. MR MEMANI MR BESTER MR MEMANI Did you also investigate in the attempted murder on Ngo? MR BESTER No, I did not investigate that. MR MEMANI MR BESTER I was with the detective branch and I did detached services with the security branch. MR MEMANI MR BESTER If that was a questions, yes it was so. MR MEMANI And I do not understand why you do not seem to be prepared to say yes, you were involved in a political nature only. MR BESTER MR MEMANI MR BESTER In broad terms yes, it would probably have been related, the unrest stemmed from the political situation in the country. MR MEMANI And you must have come to know about the "Eagles Club"? MR BESTER I had nothing to do with them. I later heard of them, long afterwards I heard of the "Eagles". MR MEMANI Did you hear about the "Anti-comrades Gang"? MR BESTER What I did know was that there were comrades and there were people who were not comrades but I know nothing about anti-comrades but it could have been non-comrades, people who were not comrades. MR MEMANI No, a gang that called themselves the "Anti-comrades Gang" or that became known as the "Anti-comrades Gang". MR BESTER MR MEMANI A gang is a formation, did you know a gang that called itself "Anti-comrades", Bester? MR BESTER No. JUDGE NGOEPE Mister Bester. MR MEMANI Mr Bester. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI MR BESTER MR MEMANI And did you come to know about the "Three Million Gang"? MR BESTER In 1992 I first had something to do with the Three Million gang and that was the first time I heard anything about their existence, that was in 1992. MR MEMANI Did you come to hear about Mr Peshlani? MR BESTER I know Mr Morgan Peshlani very well. MR MEMANI And did you know about the attack on his shop? MR BESTER If you could just guide me as to the date approximately when that attack took place? MR MEMANI MR BESTER MR MEMANI And did you come to know that his son was involved with a gang that was called the "Anti-comrades Gang"? MR BESTER MR MEMANI MR BESTER I agree with you. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON How many times must he tell you that he has never heard of such a gang? MR MEMANI As the chair pleases. I was trying to remind him in a way Mr Chairman, it might help him recall to repeat it. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, may I ask the question for the last time? CHAIRPERSON No. MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. Now Mr Bester, did you come to know about the "Eagles Club"? MR BESTER Yes, I came to hear of them and that was in Bloemfontein and even in Botshabelo. MR MEMANI Did you come to hear about them in Brandfort? MR BESTER MR MEMANI When was it that you heard about them for the first time? MR BESTER MR MEMANI And at that time, did you come to learn that they had previously been operating in Brandfort? MR BESTER I first heard that they were active in Brandfort after the notice had been served on me. MR MEMANI And we were told in a separate application that certain incidents occurred which involved members of these gangs and comrades. MR BESTER ADV DE JAGER That the Eagles were involved or which gang? MR MEMANI MR BESTER MR MEMANI Let me be brief and say that we heard evidence that there were many occasions where comrades were involved in conflict with these gangs. MR BESTER MR MEMANI Mr Bester, I would have expected you as a person who was investigating matters of a political nature in Brandfort, to have become aware of these gangsters during the course of your investigation of these matters. MR VISSER With respect Mr Chairman, the witness was a pains to tell you that he did investigate politically orientated matters, unrest related cases. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Mr Memani, he drew a very clear distinction between investigation of political matters and unrest matters but he conceded that unrest matters in this country could broadly speaking come form a political situation. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Mr Chair, I will proceed with the witness. Mr Bester, we were told that these incident which involved the gangs would be typically matters that you would call unrest related. CHAIRPERSON Where were we told that? MR MEMANI Let me rephrase the question Mr Chairman. Now, we were told that these conflicts between the gangsters and the students took the form of open attacks of the gangsters attacking the students. MR BESTER MR MEMANI Now we were told that some of these comrades reported the matters to the police and nothing was done about those matters. MR BESTER If a case had been made and I had been notified, I would have investigated it or one of my people would have done so. We had to investigate it, it was our job. MR MEMANI Now, what unrest related matters did you investigate at Brandfort before 1989? MR BESTER MR MEMANI MR BESTER A number of persons had been arrested. I no longer have the names as it occurred in 1985 a long time ago. MR MEMANI And were these people not associated with the anti-comrades? MR BESTER MR MEMANI To which formation were they associated? MR BESTER They were criminals. MR MEMANI MR BESTER The police had given them the opportunity to disperse. After they had been warned they attacked the police and they were arrested after that. MR MEMANI MR BESTER MR MEMANI MR BESTER Mr Chair, I have a problem with the statement: "Bomb attack". If we refer to the clinic that had been burnt, I was there alone, I found Mr Mamome there that morning, he did not do the investigation with me, I found him there, he was there. MR MEMANI I may have misled you, I meant to refer to the day after the clinic was bombed. MR BESTER MR MEMANI I see. Thank you for reminding me. The point is, you went there with Motsamai. MR BESTER CHAIRPERSON Did you say you found Motsamai there? MR BESTER ... after me but he was in Brandfort, he was also at the clinic. ADV DE JAGER But previously you said you found Mamome there. MR BESTER Mamome and Motsamai. They way I understood the question, it was Motsamai. MR MEMANI Did you say you found him there, Motsamai? MR BESTER That is correct. MR MEMANI Now, you seemed also not to be sure whether you found him there or whether he might have arrived there. MR BESTER That is entirely correct. MR MEMANI Is it possible that he might have arrived there after he had been there? MR BESTER Yes, that is correct. MR MEMANI MR BESTER MR MEMANI I see. Mr Motsamai - Mr Ngo also told us that you were with him in a vehicle on the night in which the clinic was bombed? CHAIRPERSON Clinic? MR MEMANI Yes. MR BESTER Mr Ngo and I never worked together. Under no circumstances for a single moment, it is a blatant lie, it is entirely wrong. MR MEMANI MR BESTER MR MEMANI My instructions are that you were the investigating officer. MR BESTER That is incorrect. MR MEMANI And Mr Bester, is it true that often members of the security branch charged people merely to harass them? MR BESTER MR MEMANI And Mr Bester, do you have any problems with Mr Motsamai? MR BESTER MR MEMANI MR BESTER MR MEMANI No further questions Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI MR BRINK No thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON A few. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER Yes, I will try to be as quick as possible about it. Mr Bester, you said you were on the detached service, were there other members as well who were on detached service at the security branch? MR BESTER Mr Chair, yes, there were. But I think after approximately two weeks they departed and I basically remained behind alone. MR STANDER But it did sometimes happen that members from other police stations, for example from Wepener, would be here at the security branch on detached service? MR BESTER MR STANDER MR BESTER Mr Chairman, if that is correct and true then I must say that I did not really associate with the security branch members, because I was investigating I was more at the town where the problems had occurred. MR STANDER Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. You have just referred to the fact that you got to know Mr Ngo as a complainant in an assault case. MR BESTER That is correct, that is what I said. MR VISSER Can you remember in which year the incident in which he was injured took place? MR BESTER Under correction I will say that it was in 1985. MR VISSER And was there a trial that followed on that. MR BESTER MR VISSER MR BESTER MR VISSER But did a trial follow on that that you were aware of? MR BESTER Yes. MR VISSER And the finding of this trial was that these people were found to be not guilty and released. MR BESTER MR VISSER And one of those accused was Mr White Mohapi. MR BESTER MR VISSER Are you aware of any other case where Mr White Mohapi was "taken to court" where he got off scott free except in this one case. MR BESTER MR VISSER I may add Mr Chairman, nor have we been told by Mr White Mohapi of any such case. This is in regard to the question which you put to the witness just now. I have no further questions thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Bester, were you the person who investigated the bombing of the clinic until the docket was closed? MR BESTER No, I was not the investigating officer for a very long time, I did the preliminary investigation but it was handed over to the detective team at Brandfort. JUDGE NGOEPE The house, what about the house? MR BESTER JUDGE NGOEPE That was while you were not yet a member of the security branch. MR BESTER JUDGE NGOEPE And I believe there was a lot of speculation that members of the security branch, taking into account the political profile then of Mrs Mandela, accusations that the security branch could have been behind that, the bombing of, or responsible for the bombing of the house. Were you aware of such rumours? MR BESTER No, I was not aware of any such accusations, if I had been I would have investigated it. JUDGE NGOEPE Again given the political profile of Mrs Mandela and the huge interests which the police had in her, did that thought ever occur to you? That the security branch might have been responsible as a form of harassment? MR BESTER When I investigated that matter I was not part of the detective team and that idea, in those earlier years, would not have arisen. JUDGE NGOEPE MR BESTER JUDGE NGOEPE So the matter was never investigated from that angle? MR BESTER No, most certainly not. JUDGE NGOEPE I find this quite surprising in the light of the allegations which were flown around, that the security branch were harassing Mrs Mandela. MR BESTER CHAIRPERSON MR BESTER CHAIRPERSON And the clinic? MR BESTER The burnt very badly when I arrived there. Usually if a place is set alight by petrol then one smells the petrol but I could not smell this and because the case was not investigated any further by me, I showed no further interest in exactly what had caused the fire. But we did suspect that it could have been a petrol bomb or that it was set alight with petrol. CHAIRPERSON MR BESTER The whole clinic was filled with smoke, the smell of smoke was overpowering. If I can just tell you, I remember about a lot of books that burnt and these books were smouldering. They were on a pile and I think that is what caused the terrible smoke if I can remember correctly. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Bester. WITNESS EXCUSED MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON Which date is that? MR STANDER I feel that it was important to place this date in front of you and that is why this has been done. I cannot take the aspect any further than that. MR VISSER MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE It is not my view that the docket be handed in and if this matter has to be discussed in chambers, if it would be necessary that it be discussed in chambers, it may have to be discussed in chambers but I am of the firm view as of now provisional though it may be, that that docket should not be given to us now so that we read the statements in there. Mr Visser, from the point of view in particular of your clients, all they have to do here for the reason for them to be here is to come and deny that, with regard to the matter in question, that they took part in the assault of Mr Mohapi. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Because your clients had the opportunity to do that when Mr Ngo and Mr White Mohapi gave evidence. They had not prepared the matter at that stage and they have now, this weekend, seen fit to go and do some research, they are asking for an indulgence. MR MEMANI MR STANDER If I can perhaps just add something. Mr Visser is asking you leave to hand in the docket. I am sorry I cannot allow this, I have serious objections to this. This will mean that untested evidence is placed before you, something which none of has the right to cross-examine. We have already heard ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER JUDGE NGOEPE MR VISSER JUDGE NGOEPE MR VISSER That is the reason why I suggested in fairness to Mr Mohapi, it can just be put to him Mr Chairman. He can deny it ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE MR VISSER MR MEMANI But Mr Chairman, I suggest that we continue with his other witnesses at the moment and if he wants to make the application at a later stage he can perhaps make the application if you want to listen to it. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER I call Mr Erasmus. ADV DE JAGER Your full names please? JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS (sworn states) MR VISSER You may sit down Mr Erasmus. (discussions on microphones) Colonel Coetzee, I beg your pardon, Mr Erasmus, are you attached to the South African Police Service? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER And were you previously attached to the security branch of the South African Police? MR ERASMUS Yes, that is correct Mr Chair. MR VISSER What is your present rank? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER And in which unit or section are you presently operating? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER Who is your immediate senior at present? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER And who is that? MR ERASMUS That is Commissioner de Wit. MR VISSER When did you join the South African Police? MR ERASMUS Mr Chair, I joined them on the 26th March 1977. MR VISSER You joined the South African Police on 26 March 1977? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER MR ERASMUS Yes. MR VISSER And with the security branch in Bloemfontein? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER Mr Erasmus, in which section did you operate in the security branch here in Bloemfontein? MR ERASMUS Mr Chair, just after I joined the security branch or was transferred to it, I initially worked in the registration office and early the next year I went on a course after which I joined the so-called black section. After becoming an officer I became involved in the investigating teams and I also dealt with emergency measures and detached services. MR VISSER Could we quickly run through this? You were with admin and then you went to black section, can you give us a date when you went to the black section? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER And you say you went to the investigating unit or did you then go to the emergency measures, detentions? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER What was this case? MR ERASMUS It concerned the State against Ian Auguzulu and six others. MR VISSER While you are referring to courses, could you perhaps tell the Committee members, during the 1986, were you on courses? MR ERASMUS No, Mr Chair. No, I did not attend courses, not as far as I can remember at the moment. MR VISSER In your black section with which you were involved until mid 1985, who were the people involved in that section with you? MR ERASMUS Mr Chair, initially we were only a few but when I left we were probably approximately 20 people. MR VISSER In order to just keep it short or keep it brief, could I - no okay, then I will leave it. Could you give us the names of the people who were in the black section? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER Sorry, I missed some of the names. If we could just possibly just have a repeat. MR ERASMUS It was me, Terry Shaw, Mamome, M-A-M-O-M-E, Motsamai, there was a Constable Kabusa but he committed suicide at one stage, there was also Constable Mancho. MR VISSER Can you spell that to us? MR ERASMUS M-A-N-C-H-O. Morakile was there at a stage in the black section. Hendrik Ramosoeu also worked there. MR VISSER And Hendrik Ramosoeu, what were his duties? What did he concern himself with? MR ERASMUS He worked with us in Bloemfontein but then he went to work exclusively in Brandfort. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS Mr Chair, at an estimate I would say 70 to 80 staff members. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON 08H30 tomorrow morning. WITNESS EXCUSED COMMITTEE ADJOURNS