amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS BLOEMFONTEIN MR ERASMUS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54633&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/bloem/bloem5_2ndngo9.htm MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, I do not know who took him there. It could have possibly been members of the security branch, I do not deny that but I do not know who they were. MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, this is not important for me. MR MEMANI How can it not be, because it is alleged that you arranged that? MR ERASMUS I did not make those arrangements because no arrangements were necessary, Mr Ngo lived there. MR MEMANI And that it was actually conveyed by members of the security branch? MR ERASMUS It could possibly have been so, these members could have taken him there after he was discharged from the hospital. MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI And you told us that you were away when the incident occurred. MR ERASMUS Correct Mr Chairman. MR MEMANI That was never put to Mr Ngo. MR ERASMUS I cannot comment on that. The day that the incident took place I was away, I was not in Bloemfontein. MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS No Mr Chairman, during Mr Mohape trial after this incident, I was busy with an officers course. MR MEMANI Let me see what my note says then. JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Memani, he was referring to the time when the trial took place. MR MEMANI Can you perhaps remind us what you said? MR ERASMUS I was on the farm with my parents when the incident occurred. ADV DE JAGER I think you are now referring to another incident. I think the question is: "When Mr Ngo was attacked, where were you then"? MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI And you see, from the evidence of Mr Mohape, the attack on Mr Ngo occurred on a school day. MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI And I thought you just said that the attack took place on Saturday while you were at the farm and you came back the Sunday? MR ERASMUS No, Mr Chair, I was on the farm where I was notified about the incident that had occurred. Some of my colleagues phoned me there and informed me that such an incident had occurred, I think that was the Friday that the incident occurred. MR MEMANI What surprises me is that this was not put to Mr Ngo. MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI Where is your parents place? MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS It is 480 kilometres from Bloemfontein in the Karoo. MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS Mr Chair, I visited my parents regularly, it is not strange, it is a fact and those are the facts. MR MEMANI Were you on leave at the time? MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI I put it to you that your denial that you knew Mr Venter and your version that you were not concerned about him and that is did not matter to you that Ngo suddenly started living with a stranger whilst he was your informer, is untrue. MR ERASMUS The statement is not correct Mr Chairman. MR MEMANI And that it is motivated by a desire by yourself to distance yourself from the murder of Mr Venter. MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI Mr Erasmus, I heard you to be saying that the attack, rather the charge of attempted murder on Mr Mohape had nothing to do with security branch. Was I following the evidence correctly when I made that note? MR ERASMUS Indirectly it had an influence on the security branch because he was an informer but the criminal data was investigated by the detective branch, the security branch was not involved. MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS Chair, I on two occasions came across him in Pretoria while I was busy with the court case while he was stationed at unit 19, yes. MR VISSER ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER MR VISSER ...[inaudible] because I thought there was a clear misunderstanding. My learned friend was talking about Mr Mohape and the witness was talking about Mr Ngo and that question and answer just before we went to Mamelodi Mr Chairman. MR MEMANI Did you see him at court? MR ERASMUS No, Mr Chair, the court case which I am referring to was a case which we investigated, the case was heard in Pretoria and I met him in the street there. It was not in the court case or in the court where I came across him. MR MEMANI You came across him twice, was it in the street on both occasions? MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI Is it not true that some policemen actually worked with security branch while they were not in fact registered at security branch? MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS Inspector Nkanja I know. He was attached to the municipal police and he was included into the police and he was transferred to the security branch, that is my knowledge of him. MR MEMANI Do you have difficulty just conceding that: "Yes, he worked with us for about a year before he actually became enlisted as a member of security branch"? MR ERASMUS No, my knowledge is that when Inspector - Inspector Nkanja was transferred to security branch and then worked there. I have no knowledge that he previously worked somewhere else or had some relationship or attachment to the security branch before he started working there. He was included into the staff. MR MEMANI You were not even aware that he was from the municipality police? MR ERASMUS I am aware that he was of the municipal police. MR MEMANI And Mkwena also, I was told he was from the municipality police and worked for security branch for over a year before he actually became a member. MR ERASMUS Mr Chair, my knowledge is that after the municipal police had been taken over by the South African Police and after they had been incorporated they immediately started working with us and this is my only knowledge about these two members. MR MEMANI Thank you. Mr Chairman, if I may go through the notes? MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI We hear evidence that Mr Nichos was harassed by security branch, from Mr Serame Molefe. MR ERASMUS Yes. MR MEMANI Do you have - you seem to be throwing your eyes at your legal representatives, do you want them to assist you? MR ERASMUS No. MR MEMANI Oh I see. MR VISSER MR MEMANI Mr Erasmus, you said that - I put it to you that Mr Nichos was harassed by security branch and you said: "Yes" but I just want to make sure because it was not clear from the way I put it whether you intended to confirm that Nichos was in fact harassed by security branch. MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS That is not the truth Mr Chair. MR MEMANI Do you know that Mr Nichos had a night-club? MR ERASMUS Yes, I have knowledge of that fact. MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS Mr Chair, the night-club was relaxation, a place of relaxation for many of the black members. I met some of the black members in that night-club. It was definitely not intended to be harassment. MR MEMANI Surely this does not involve any offence? MR ERASMUS Honourable Chair, it was stated to me as harassment and that is not the way I saw it. MR MEMANI Was it monitoring perhaps? MR ERASMUS No, Chair. JUDGE NGOEPE I fail to see how the attendance of Mr Motsamai at a night-club, his attendance there, I fail to see how that could be a harassment. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, it causes you discomfort if you are involved in something which the police have an interest in and if the police are there at your place regularly. JUDGE NGOEPE CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI That is why Mr Chairman, I put it to him that perhaps the better word to use is monitor. ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Are you now saying the security branch was monitoring the way that a night-club was run, well, a member of the security branch. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. MR VISSER MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS ...[No English translation] MR MEMANI And you heard him say that security branch harassed, used to visit Mr Nichos. MR ERASMUS I heard that Honourable Chair. MR MEMANI And that you actually visited Nichos. MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI You heard Mr Molefe complain, say that Nichos complained that you were harassing him. MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS Mr Chair, presence of a member of the security branch on the premises and harassment of an individual are two different things and I do not agree with the harassment. If the members visited there, no problem with that. MR MEMANI And when Mr Motsamai testified and said that he petrol bombed the house of Nichos because he was a suspected courier, it was put to him that the house was burnt because he was suspected to be involved in a ritual murder. MR ERASMUS I have no knowledge of that Mr Chair. MR MEMANI Did you not give those instructions to your legal representatives? MR ERASMUS MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS Or that his shop had been burnt down. MR MEMANI Now, you heard Mr Serame testify that he was a former Robben Islander, he is a former Robben Islander. MR ERASMUS That may be so. MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS I heard that testimony, yes Mr Chair. MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS Mr Chair, after 2 February 1990, the ANC was a legal organisation and the security branch had no interest in further monitoring these people. And to return to the question, it is absurd that any action had to be taken against Mr Nichos because he had an association with Mr Hani. MR MEMANI I am sure that you do not want us to believe that Nichos, rather Serame came back from prison after 1990. MR ERASMUS MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS ADV DE JAGER Can you perhaps give us the date of the attack on the shop of Mr Nichos? MR MEMANI NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink? MR BRINK No questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER Mr Chair, I failed raise two aspects with the witness, I will be as quickly as possible with your permission, like yesterday. As it please Mr Chairman. Mr Erasmus, I understood that the leaders of the group of 19 on occasion were taken to the local Magistrates Court in order to go and make admissions there. Do you have any knowledge of that? MR ERASMUS MR STANDER Because I wish to state to you that on the relevant day, the Magistrate refused to accept testimony of Mr Makubalo and Mr Oliphant because they had been seriously assaulted and this was visible, and for this reason the Magistrate refused to take their admissions. MR ERASMUS MR STANDER Another aspect which I failed to state to you was, that it was my instruction that you inter alias formed part of the group of security police officers who sometimes changed testimony and/or falsely concocted it in order to get a guilty or not guilty finding. What do you say to that? MR ERASMUS Mr Chair, this is a serious allegation made against me and I would like to know who is making this allegation. CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER I will tell you where it originates from Mr Erasmus. This information inter alias - these incidents or these attempts to change evidence occurred on occasions when Mr Makubalo was kind of assaulted and you and all your group of security police officers wished to hide these facts because on occasion he was also accused of attempted murder. MR ERASMUS Mr Chair, I deny this but I would like to have more information regarding exactly what is being referred to. MR STANDER MR VISSER MR STANDER NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON And re-examination? MR VISSER None, thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Erasmus, at some point when you were told that some of the people in the group of 19 were assaulted on the 5th floor, you said something like you had not received any complaints from them. MR ERASMUS Mr Chair, I was not involved with this group. What I said was that I had never heard of any complaints from the side of these people and that also on occasion I visited them and that no complaints were mentioned to me or raised by them. JUDGE NGOEPE You visited them in prison? MR ERASMUS I visited them at Glen Police Station on a Saturday evening when I was officer on duty while they were in detention. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you go there specifically for the purpose of asking them whether they had any complaints? MR ERASMUS That was one of our tasks, to go and take care of these people to hear whether there were any complaints or problems. JUDGE NGOEPE You would have told them that you are a member of the security branch? MR ERASMUS Yes, affirmative Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE MR ERASMUS I agree to that Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE MR ERASMUS had to be provided. There were indeed problems raised with us, not necessarily assaults. JUDGE NGOEPE Of course I was asking you questions about assaults? MR ERASMUS Yes. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Chairman, may I be allowed, perhaps just to take this aspect one step further. In 1986 Mr Erasmus, were there regulations applicable to visits to or controls over detainees in terms of security legislation? MR ERASMUS Mr Chair, there were a number of instructions given. There were detention files that were kept, visitors files and all the visits by staff, personnel as well as visiting officers of the uniform police, district surgeon, Magistrates etc., were recorded. MR VISSER So what you are saying is that all these people who visited those detainees, the records were kept? MR ERASMUS Yes, and also when the Section 29 detainees were visited. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, I just wanted leave to put something along the lines of his visit which I forgot to put to the witness. Can we perhaps deal with that before he deals with the floor? CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] ADV DE JAGER MR ERASMUS The top indicates North. ADV DE JAGER Okay, that is affirmative. Then the South is Fountain Street and on the Western side is Aliwal street. MR VISSER ADV DE JAGER Okay, the fact is that two of the sides of the building front on the street? MR ERASMUS Yes, that is affirmative. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS Mr Chair, there was a detention file specifically for this purpose. In very few cases, if any, one had to make an entry in an occurrence book. It was a little visits file in which all the visits to these detainees had to be recorded. MR MEMANI My understanding is that when cells are visited, the regular visits by the police station themselves and when other people like the red cross and lawyers come in, a note is made that a visit is taking place at a particular time, in the occurrence book. MR ERASMUS Yes, the normal station staff use the occurrence book to record routine visits but visits by other people besides the station staff will be entered into the visitors file. MR MEMANI MR ERASMUS I can go and make enquiries ...[End of tape 3, side A - no follow-on sound] MR ERASMUS Yes, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON And did you know about his duties in Brandfort? MR ERASMUS I was informed regarding his services Honourable Chair. CHAIRPERSON Did you have anything at all to do with them? MR ERASMUS No, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS Yes, the vehicles were basically allocated to a person. They were all government vehicles, not private or personal vehicles. CHAIRPERSON But he used your government vehicle, did he? MR ERASMUS Yes, on a number of occasions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. [no sound on tape] MR VISSER [No sound] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR VISSER P67. [No sound] CHAIRPERSON Right. Are you going to ask him questions about the building or should I? MR VISSER I can do it Mr Chairman. Mr Erasmus, when you mentioned the street names on the side of the buildings on Fountain Street where the security police was, Commissioner de Jager asked whether the Northern side was above and this gave rise to the confusion that Fountain Street was described as being on the Southern side of the building. Can you tell us what the correct situation is? MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, Fountain Street is on the Northern Side of the building, Aliwal Street is on the Western side of the building. The floor plan should just be turned around. It was correctly entered on the plan although the directions were not clearly indicated. CHAIRPERSON And is it correct that on the Southern end of the building in Aliwal Street is the entrance to the parking area? MR ERASMUS Of the building itself, the Southern side of the building? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR ERASMUS There are five parking lots there, parking spaces at the back side of the building. CHAIRPERSON And there is an enclosed parking area walled in at the back of the building, about where the letter of the big number 4 is on the plan. MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And there is an entrance into the building in the parking area? MR ERASMUS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And that is on the Southern wall of the portion of the building running along Fountain Street? MR ERASMUS That is also correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And I understand that from the entrance you can get access to the lifts which are shown on the plan as being on the corner of Aliwal Street and Fountain Street of the building? MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON Right. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS That is correct. On the 4th and the 5th floors, there were trellises which limited access. MR VISSER But a member of the public, would something prevent him to take the lift to the landing of the 4th and the 5th floors? MR ERASMUS When the Divisional Commissioner was there, there was a guard in front of the doors but there was no limited access. At the moment there is a trellis door at that entrance. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS Yes, many people had that access. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR VISSER Form SAP 172. And the way in which you have to read it, if you look at the little block on the left-hand side of both pages - do you have a copy in front of you? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER What can you tell us about the form, what is this all about? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman, and on the other side is the offices of the Attorney General. MR VISSER NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Perhaps we should deal with that now. As I understand it - and correct me please, we realised when we adjourned yesterday that we had different views as to what you said, you have found a docket which contains statements from various people including policemen, relating to what was said by White Mohape. It is not a statement made by White Mohapi. MR VISSER The docket also includes three statements made by White Mohape Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Is it just one of those three that you wish to put in? MR VISSER Basically one of the three, yes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON So it would be a questions of recalling White Mohapi and saying to him: "Did you make this statement"? MR VISSER Yes, Mr Chairman. Apart from that there are two other - there are in total four documents which we believe, with respect, we should pay attention to. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER No, Mr Chairman, it is our submission that it effects Mr Ngo and that is really the basis why we wish to place this before you. CHAIRPERSON It will just to be to put it to - to recall White Mohapi and put to him the statement? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Yes, yes, obviously. CHAIRPERSON What do you say? MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON You object to it being ...[intervention] MR MEMANI That is correct. MR STANDER ADV DE JAGER Can you tell us, was it before or after the assault on Mr Ngo? MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON I understand that Mr Brink may have a witness, the person who arrived here and is unrepresented but we can deal with that later. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON CIA, Criminal Intelligence Agency, sorry. MR MEMANI Yes, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER ADV DE JAGER ...[No English translation] MR COETZEE ...[inaudible] MR VISSER Mr Coetzee, are you a retired Brigadier from the South African Police Services? MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Do you know that certain allegations have been made against you in these applications, of offences and unlawful deeds that you have committed? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER What is your reactions to these allegations? MR COETZEE I reject it completely. MR VISSER Have you initially, when you in March last year became aware of these allegations, did you visit Mr Wagner in his offices in Pretoria? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER And did you make an affidavit contained in bundle B, page 15 to 17? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER Do you have that affidavit in front of you. MR COETZEE MR VISSER Do you confirm the truth and the correctness of the contents? MR COETZEE That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Did you later - did it later come under your attention that Mr Motsamai implicated you in certain offences or unlawful deeds? MR COETZEE That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And then, did you make another affidavit? MR COETZEE MR VISSER And is that the affidavit contained in bundle B, pages 90 to 91? MR COETZEE MR VISSER Do you confirm that the contents are correct? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER Is it correct that on the 30th of January 1962 you joined the South African Police? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER And is it also correct that on the 31st of August 1980 you joined the security branch in Bloemfontein? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER I understand that you worked in various departments? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER The first was the investigative unit when you arrived here? MR COETZEE Correct. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] was? MR VISSER The investigation section Mr Chairman. And at that stage you were mainly working with terror and sabotage investigations? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER This lasted till 1985, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER When you were transferred to the black section? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER There you were the commanding officer? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER Is it also correct that from the 1st of January 1989 you were appointed second in charge of the regional Orange Free State branch of the security police? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER And then lastly, in December 1989 you say that you were transferred to Soweto? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER What were you there and which position? What was you status there? MR COETZEE I was appointed in the inspectorate, the watchdog of the officer commanding. MR VISSER And in March 1994 you became the regional head of the Witwatersrand? MR COETZEE MR VISSER Was it the police or the security branch? MR COETZEE No, the security branch. MR VISSER MR COETZEE More or less Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Can you give us an indication of how many members there were in the security branch in Bloemfontein during those two years, in total? MR COETZEE MR VISSER During the time you were involved in the black section, did you hear about Mr Ngo? MR COETZEE That is correct, yes. MR VISSER MR COETZEE That is not true. MR VISSER Did you like Mr Ngo, Mr Coetzee, tell us? MR COETZEE Mr Chairman, I was against his transfer to the security police. As a student I did not like him very much but the commanding officer wanted him there and I just accepted him, I tolerated him there. MR VISSER Was that a person whom you would take into your confidence? MR COETZEE No, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER His handlers were Mr Erasmus and in his absence, Mr Shaw. MR COETZEE MR VISSER What about Mr Motsamai? MR COETZEE Mr Chairman, he worked mainly with Motsamai and Mr Mamome. MR VISSER That was Mr Ngo? MR COETZEE MR VISSER Mr Ngo involved you or implicated you in the murder and robbery on Mr Venter. He said in his application on page 8 of bundle C and following on that that you instructed him to murder Mr Venter and that you had to see to it, on page 8, that this murder would appear to have been a robbery and a break-in. MR COETZEE [No English translation] MR VISSER He also said that after he had committed this task in co-operation with Mamome and Ramouseau, he reported back and you were not satisfied that they did not remove enough articles from that house and that you thought he had to remove more articles from that house to simulate a break-in. MR COETZEE I deny it wholeheartedly. MR VISSER MR COETZEE Nothing at all Mr Chairman. MR VISSER MR COETZEE I know nothing about that. MR COETZEE And did you give any such instructions? MR COETZEE No such instructions Mr Chairman. MR VISSER He also says, on your instructions Ramaseou, Mamome, Motsamai and Mtyhala and he himself Mr Ngo, went to the clinic of Mrs Mandela and that they found an object which could set something alight, a kind of a phosphorus grenade. They threw that into the clinic and this resulted in the clinic being set alight. Did you give such instructions? MR COETZEE No, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER MR VISSER Do you know ...[no sound] CHAIRPERSON I have a request for a short adjournment which I will grant. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS