amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-03-03 BOKSBURG 2 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54635&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/bok/bok1_katleho2.htm CHAIRPERSON: Good morning ladies and gentlemen. This is the continuation of the Katlehong Massacre Hearing. Mr Mapoma, I understand that you have a matter to raise this morning. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I've got two matters to raise, one about applicant Michael Armoed. The Boksburg police have undertaken that they are going to go and fetch him from Sun City prison. They are on their way and we are expecting them to bring him to the hearing. CHAIRPERSON Are we to understand now that they will be responsible for bringing the applicant to and from the proceedings? MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson. They have undertaken to do that but they said we have to sign a requisition warrant for him to be taken from Sun City to be kept in Boksburg until the hearing ends, from today onwards. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Well, I suppose you'll be able to attend to that? MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON If there is anything that we can do to expedite the process, let us know. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So that disposes of that matter, what is the other matter? MR MOTLOKWA The other matter Chairperson, is about another applicant, applicant number 7, Julian ...[indistinct]. Mr Madasa has advised me yesterday that he is not acting for him, he's acting for the 14 applicants except for him. Now, the Investigative Officer for the TRC advised that Julian Ntlebe's(?) application has nothing to do with the Katlehong Massacre, he was not part of it and he does not apply for amnesty in respect of the Katlehong Massacre. CHAIRPERSON Then why was it included in this hearing? MR MAPOMA The reason for it to be included here is that, in his application he did not specify exactly what incident he is applying for amnesty for except that he said he's applying for amnesty for killing in December 1993 in Katlehong so it was assumed that he was part of the SDU's. He also says he was an SDU member. CHAIRPERSON Yes, so do the other applicants and they make reference to 1993. Mr Madasa, do you confirm that you don't appear for applicant number 7, that is Julian Essau Ntlebe? MR MADASA Yes. CHAIRPERSON But I thought yesterday you placed yourself on record as appearing for all the applicants? MR MADASA I think I said 14 applicants. CHAIRPERSON Well, did you notify Mr Mapoma of that fact? MR MADASA As he says now, he has been aware that's he's not part of the ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Then why was this matter not brought to the attention of the Commission yesterday? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, this matter was going to be dealt with - we thought his application is going to be dealt with separately to the Katlehong Massacre and in fact I've discussed the matter with Advocate Mpshe. He has agreed that this matter is supposed to be struck off the role for the Katlehong Massacre and his application be dealt with separately. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. Mr Julian Essau Ntlebe? MR MAPOMA I'm told he is not here Chairperson, he has not pitched up for the hearing. CHAIRPERSON Was he here yesterday? MR MAPOMA He was not here even yesterday. CHAIRPERSON Really? Well Mr Mapoma, there's something fundamentally wrong with the process, we cannot continue like this. Very well, the application in respect applicant number 7, Julian Essau Ntlebe is accordingly struck off from the role. Now whilst we are on this matter, it has occurred to me, going through the applications by the other applicants, that they also refer to 1993 in the same vague fashion as Ntlebe does in his application. I think some of them refer to an incident in which a Mr Mavuso was killed. Now, is that matter, the killing of Mavuso related to the incident that we are dealing with today? Mr Madasa, what are your instructions in regard to the remaining applicants now? Mr Madasa, are these applicants applying for amnesty in respect of the Katlehong Massacre, all of them? MR MADASA Yes, Mr Chair. If you refer to the list of the deceased, page 2 of the bundle, the applicants applications relate to the deceased listed there, except number 1. So I confirm that the rest, except for number 1, the applicants claimed some responsibility, directly or indirectly. CHAIRPERSON Okay. For the death of the deceased persons mentioned on page 2. MR MADASA Yes, except for the first deceased. CHAIRPERSON Except Theodora Bulelwa Ziwane? MR MADASA Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. ...[no sound] There is a reference to Mavuso. If you go to page, I think if you go to page 14 of the papers, paragraph 9.C.II, - I, I think it, where Michael Langa Nkomo gives the name of the victim as Mavuso and others. Who were the another and others I don't know. Who is this Mavuso? Go to page 14 of the bundle of the document. MR MADASA Yes, I see Mr Chair. I assume that Mavuso is Mavuso who is number 9 on the list but I can quickly confirm with one of the applicants now. CHAIRPERSON Okay, that is Peter Mavuso Modishwa? MR MADASA Yes. Mr Chairman, may I confirm this first with one of the applicants? CHAIRPERSON And then another one refers to Bolozo(?). MR MADASA Yes, Mr Chair, the applicants confirm that this Mavuso some of them refer to is the same person who is number 9 on the list of deceased. CHAIRPERSON And what about Bolozo? Okay Bolozo is mentioned by ...[intervention] MR MADASA By Armoed Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps when he - did you take instructions on their application forms? What are your instructions in this regard? MR MADASA I confess Mr Chair, I didn't dealt with Armoed, the question of Bolozo. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps, if you could find some time at some point and just go through the applications including the victims referred to by the applicants and just make sure that they relate or they refer to the same persons who are described as being the deceased in the Katlehong Massacre so that there is no confusion about that. ...[no sound] Is there anything else Mr Mapoma, that you want to place on record? MR MAPOMA No, Chairperson, that is all. I also Chairperson, for the sake of the record, would like to mention that unfortunately these disparities have been caused by not having had an opportunity to hold a pre-hearing conference with my learned fried. That is a regret Mr Chairperson, I must apologise for that one. CHAIRPERSON Well, if we adjourn at four today, why can't you hold a conference of some sort and see what the issues are and see the extent to which you could define the issues? Why can't you do that this afternoon at four and first thing tomorrow morning if necessary? MR MAPOMA We agree to do that Chairperson, at 4 o'clock with my learned friend. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think that would be very helpful indeed. MR MAPOMA Yes, thank you. CHAIRPERSON If you go to 105, 106 I think it is, yes, 105/106, applicant number 15 Malcolmess Ngaam refers to Bulungwe or Bulangwe. Could you also take instructions on who that person is? I think his name appears at page 105/106 and he is referred to by applicant number 15. MR MADASA Yes, that person is Blanko who was referred by the applicant who is still giving evidence. It's Blanko who was their member, whose shack was burnt. CHAIRPERSON I see, very well. So Blanko and Bulungwe is on and the same person, very well. Having taken care of the housekeeping problems, where is Mr Motlokwa? Mr Motlokwa? MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] the evidence in chief, is that right? MR MADASA Yes, Mr Chair, but with your permission may I ask just one question? CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA (con) Mr Motlokwa, as a result of these killings, did you personally benefit anything therefrom? MR MOTLOKWA I never benefitted anything Sir. MR MADASA Thank you, that's all Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. Mr Motlokwa, during December 1993 you were a member of the African National Congress, is that not correct? MR MOTLOKWA I joined the African National Congress in 1985 until now. MR MAPOMA And when you had problems with the ANC Youth League you must have realised that to be a political problem, is that not so? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MAPOMA A political problem which needed a political solution, is that not correct? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MAPOMA Now, did you take up the matter with the ANC at political level, the matter of your problems with the ANC Youth League as youth wing of your political organisation, the ANC? MR MOTLOKWA I said yesterday that we wrote a letter to the civic trying to solve the problems that existed between ourselves and the Youth League. MR MAPOMA I take it that you used to attend the meetings of the ANC as a political organisation, as member of the political organisation, the ANC, is that not correct? MR MOTLOKWA Chairperson, there were no meetings, we were busy at all time because Katlehong was fighting. MR MAPOMA Okay. But now, did you as a member of the ANC take the matter up with the ANC, the mother body of the ANC Youth League and you being a member of the ANC as an organisation? MR MOTLOKWA Sir, I have said that we took a step. We wrote a letter to the civic organisation asking to meet with them to get a solution to the problem we had with the Youth League. CHAIRPERSON I think what Mr Mapoma wishes to establish from you is that, did you take the matter up with the ANC structures? One, the ANC Youth League were members of the ANC, you were also a member of the ANC but what you did you wrote a letter to the civic, is that right? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now, did you take the matter up with the African National Congress? MR MOTLOKWA Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON How? MR MOTLOKWA The central SDU met with the ANC Katlehong branch, they were discussing the issue of Moleleki. Now the delegation was sent by the Shell House by the name of Mr Africa, to come and investigate this matter. MR MAPOMA Yes, but I take it that that happened after the incident of the killing of the deceased persons. I'm asking about your relationship with the ANC before the incident. When you had problems with the ANC Youth League before the incident itself happened, did you ever raise the matter with the ANC as an organisation of which you were a member? MR MOTLOKWA Sir, I told you already that the civic solved the problems because within the SDU, the SDU had members from different political organisations, PAC and ANC. Now the civic managed to solve the problems we had. MR MAPOMA Otherwise you did not raise the matter with the ANC, you yourself? MR MOTLOKWA We did not discuss this with the ANC. CHAIRPERSON As I understand the position, the membership in the SDU was open to all political organisations but the IFP, is that right? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. IFP, National Party, Democratic Party were not included. CHAIRPERSON And the civic comprised of the various political parties but the Democratic Party, the Nationalist Party and the IFP? MR MOTLOKWA A civic is a community organisation, it doesn't matter whether you belong to the IFP or National Party, it belongs to the community. CHAIRPERSON And this was the body that was responsible for the whole of Katlehong? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON And it was also responsible for the SDU's? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So it was only proper that if there is any problem with the ANC Youth League the matter should be raised at the civic level? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MAPOMA Now, during 1993 you were 30 years old, if I count the years correctly, is it not so? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MAPOMA And you were eligible to be a member of the ANC Youth League if you so chose, is that not correct? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MAPOMA And generally the youth who are the member of the ANC Youth League joined the - who are the members of the ANC joined the ANC Youth League as youth? Do I understand that correctly? MR MOTLOKWA Sir, I don't understand you, can you repeat your question? MR MAPOMA Okay, let me repeat my question. Generally the youth who are the members of the ANC normal joined the ANC Youth League if they so chose. MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. You would have the ANC Youth League cut and the ANC cut as the mother body. MR MAPOMA Yes. Now, why did you not join the ANC Youth League? MR MOTLOKWA I was committed, I was involved in the block committee in the civic and I was a shop steward at work, I could not afford to have my hands full. MR MAPOMA Now lets come to the formation of the SDU's. Yesterday you correctly quoted the submission made by the ANC to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission about the formation of the SDU's. MR MOTLOKWA That is correct, I remember. MR MAPOMA Is it not correct that the ANC, when it suggested the formation of the SDU's, had a position that the self-defence units must have a political discipline? MR MOTLOKWA That was so Sir. MR MAPOMA Now, the ANC as an organisation which piloted the formation of the SDU surely must have had a political guidance to the SDU's, is that not correct? MR MOTLOKWA That was so Sir, that was the case but because of certain reasons we did not have a code of conduct the situation forced us. I've already told you that the members of the MK taught us how to handle guns. That is why most of the time the Kangaroo Court was in operation. MR MAPOMA So, are actions like Kangaroo Court actions which were not sanctioned by the ANC? MR MOTLOKWA The ANC never sanctioned the Kangaroo Courts, the people themselves formed the Kangaroo Courts. It was not the ANC policy to have Kangaroo Courts. MR MAPOMA Now were Kangaroo Courts conducted by the self-defence units? MR MOTLOKWA Chairperson, unfortunately all sides took part, the civic, the Youth League, the SDU. I cannot specifically say who was running the Kangaroo Court or who came with the idea of a Kangaroo Court. MR MAPOMA Right. Now, in your actions you were not reporting to the ANC as SDU's, is that correct? MR MOTLOKWA Which act Sir? MR MAPOMA The actions like shooting people. I understand at some instances in the process of defence unit you had to shoot when a need was and such actions were not reported to the ANC, is that what I understand? MR MOTLOKWA Chairperson, we were the SDU for Moleleki section. We were supposed to report to the zonal, the zonal will forward that to the central, it was not our task. We operated according to structures, we would not just jump one structure and go to the ANC branch. MR MAPOMA Thank you. Now, let's go to the day when Blanko was attacked. In your evidence you said you identified a number of youths who were members of the ANC Youth League and some other adults who were not members of the ANC Youth League attacking Blanko's place, is that not correct? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MAPOMA And then an instruction came that: "Go attack the attackers of Blanko". MR MOTLOKWA After they have killed Blanko, yes. MR MAPOMA Now, when you captured those whom you captured, was there any person amongst those whom you captured who was not a member of the ANC Youth League and who was present when Blanko was attacked? CHAIRPERSON As I understand his evidence he referred to a I think about three groups, the first group of two persons were captured after the shoot-out at C Section, is that right? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Chair. CHAIRPERSON And then later on at approximately 5a.m. a further person was captured and his name was Mokwena, is that right? MR MOTLOKWA Buthelezi Sir. CHAIRPERSON And then there were persons who went to Manyala to report that they had been harassed by the SDU but it turned out to be that Ntjebe had already gone there to explain what had happened. They ran away but some were captured, I think three were captured and brought in a kombi. MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON Others were captured on information supplied by those who had been captured originally? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON I think you have to specify the group that you're talking about so that he can understand the question. MR MAPOMA Thanks Chairperson. Now, were you present when Alfred Buthelezi was captured? MR MOTLOKWA I was present Chairperson. MR MAPOMA And when Mr Buthelezi was captured his son Thokozani was already in your custody, correct? MR MOTLOKWA His son was identified by the two we caught and then his son, after catching him, said: "Dad explain to these people why you sent me". He told us that his dad sent him to kill the members of the SDU's, that's the reason why his father was also killed. CHAIRPERSON Maybe you should - the first two that you captured after the shoot-out, do you remember those? MR MOTLOKWA I remember just one. CHAIRPERSON And was that Mokwena? MR MOTLOKWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON So you captured two and one of them was Mokwena? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Chair. CHAIRPERSON Now, did you then speak to Mokwena and this other person to find out who else had been involved in the attack at Blanko's house? MR MOTLOKWA Yes, we talked to them and we asked them where they got the parcels from because they had parcels in their hands, then they gave us information. CHAIRPERSON Just tell us what you did to those persons that you captured, Mokwena and the other chaps. MR MOTLOKWA We took them to the community with the evidence that was found in their hands. We went to show the community and we revealed the information as to who was in their company. CHAIRPERSON Where was the community? MR MOTLOKWA I think there were many members of the community, close to 500 Sir. CHAIRPERSON Were these the person who had gathered at Blanko's house? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR MOTLOKWA I've explained Sir that those are the people who gathered at Blanko's place. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I understand that. Now, at what stage did you then ask the persons to give the names of other person who had been involved in the attack at Blanko's place? MR MOTLOKWA After catching them, on our way back to the community we wanted information from them, we did not kill them immediately. CHAIRPERSON When asking them for this information, did you do anything to them? MR MOTLOKWA We did not do anything to them but they were scared because we were armed. CHAIRPERSON What information did you require from them and what information did they give to you? MR MOTLOKWA The first information was with regard to Bulelwa's death, that she was killed by members of the Youth League and the second point was that of Blanko, they killed Blanko. CHAIRPERSON Now, did you ask them firstly who had killed Bulelwa Ziwane? MR MOTLOKWA Yes, we asked them Sir. CHAIRPERSON And what did they say? MR MOTLOKWA They said Vips was responsible. CHAIRPERSON And then did you ask them who had attacked Blanko's house? MR MOTLOKWA We asked them Sir. CHAIRPERSON And what did they say? MR MOTLOKWA They said they attacked Blanko's house. CHAIRPERSON Did they tell you who else had been involved in the attack at Blanko's house? MR MOTLOKWA They told us their names but this took place in 1993, I've forgotten their names. CHAIRPERSON Did you look for the persons who had been mentioned by these two persons? MR MOTLOKWA We went to look for them Sir. CHAIRPERSON Did you find them? MR MOTLOKWA We found some and then the others we could not find. CHAIRPERSON How many did you find? MR MOTLOKWA Chairperson, I already indicated that the people who died are nine in all. CHAIRPERSON I understand that the people who died are nine, but we're just at a stage where you were questioning the two persons, Mokwena and the other person as to who had taken part in the attack at Blanko's house, do you understand the question? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You then said that they gave you the names of the persons who had been involved in the attack at Blanko's house. MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You then looked for those individuals. MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON And you only managed to get some but not all? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you go to look for those individuals, you personally, did you go to look for those individuals whose names had been mentioned? MR MOTLOKWA Yes, Chairperson, we went in two groups. CHAIRPERSON Where did your group go to? MR MOTLOKWA Our group when to C. CHAIRPERSON Did you find anyone at C? MR MOTLOKWA No, Chairperson, we could not find anybody. CHAIRPERSON Did the other group find anyone? MR MOTLOKWA They came back with three people. CHAIRPERSON Can you still remember the names of the persons that they came with? MR MOTLOKWA I do not remember their names. CHAIRPERSON Was Buthelezi one of them? MR MOTLOKWA I said that Buthelezi was caught in the meeting because his son mentioned his name. He was amongst the crowd, they did not bring him with. The group came back three people, Buthelezi was caught amongst the people who gathered at the meeting. CHAIRPERSON I see. So you now had five persons. MR MOTLOKWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And then Buthelezi was captured at the meeting? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Chair. CHAIRPERSON That made six? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON The other group, you split into two groups, right? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Do you know who were members of the other group? MR MOTLOKWA The other group was led by Sugar. CHAIRPERSON Now you say Buthelezi was captured at the meeting? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Chair. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Was this near Blanko's house? MR MOTLOKWA It was at Blanko's place Sir. CHAIRPERSON And Buthelezi was present within the community, he was amongst the people who had gathered there? MR MOTLOKWA Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON How did it come about that he was captured, who pointed him out? MR MOTLOKWA I said Sir, his son, after we caught him, he said: "Father speak out, tell them you sent to kill them". CHAIRPERSON Was his son captured with the three persons by the Sugar group? MR MOTLOKWA Which three people Sir? CHAIRPERSON Well, your group did not find anyone. MR MOTLOKWA We did not get anyone. CHAIRPERSON The group that was led by Sugar captured three. MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now, was Buthelezi's son amongst the persons who were captured by the Sugar group? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON How did it come about that Buthelezi's son said: "Father, you said we must go to Blanko's house"? MR MOTLOKWA I think Buthelezi's son must have realised that there was no way out, they were not going to escape and then he decided to speak out. CHAIRPERSON Were they being interrogated at the meeting? MR MOTLOKWA When they arrived at the meeting they were already assaulted Sir. I'm referring to the three who were caught in E Section. CHAIRPERSON By the way, do you know who else was in this group? It was Buthelezi's son, who else? The other two, do you know their names? MR MOTLOKWA I do not know their names. CHAIRPERSON Now, at the meetings, were these persons interrogated? MR MOTLOKWA We already had the information we were looking for, they were not assaulted, they were just taken and fastened Sir. CHAIRPERSON Did Buthelezi's son just volunteer this information or was he asked anything so as to come up with this information that his father had sent them to Blanko's house? MR MOTLOKWA I already said that they were assaulted, now it's hard to tell whether he gave that information because of the pressure or voluntarily. CHAIRPERSON Did he give this information at the meeting or on the way ...[End of Tape 1, side A - no follow on sound] MR MOTATA Mr Motlokwa, when you say he gave the information at the meeting, upon their arrival, that is the three captured by the Sugar group, were they asked anything by the people or the SDU's who were gathered at the meeting? MR MOTLOKWA They asked them questions Sir. MR MOTATA Now, just assist us here, was there any specific person at the meeting who was the spokesperson who was, say, probably the one who was asking questions from the captured people? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Sir. MR MOTATA Would you know who was asking questions from the captured? MR MOTLOKWA I know Sir, who was asking questions. MR MOTATA Could you give us the name? MR MOTLOKWA Ntjebe Ndondolo was asking the questions. MR MOTATA Thank you Mr Mapoma. CHAIRPERSON What questions did he ask? MR MOTLOKWA He asked them questions about Blanko and Bulelwa's death. CHAIRPERSON What about those deaths? MR MOTLOKWA He wanted to know who killed these two people. CHAIRPERSON And what did they say? MR MOTLOKWA I already said that they admitted having killed them. CHAIRPERSON Did they mention any other person who was not present there, that is now at the meeting who had taken part in the killing of Bulelwa and Blanko? I know at some point they said that Vips had killed Bulelwa. MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON Did they mention any other person as having taken part in the killing of Bulelwa as far as you can recall? MR MOTLOKWA They mentioned many names Sir, but I can't remember them. CHAIRPERSON Many names of persons who were involved in the killing of Bulelwa? MR MOTLOKWA Yes, members of the ANC Youth League. CHAIRPERSON And what about in regard to the death of Blanko, did they give names there? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. They told us their names, the names of all the involved people and then we wrote them down on a list but I don't know what happened to that list. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR MALAN May I just have clarity? You said Mokwena was one of the first two persons that you got hold of that night? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Chair. MR MALAN Did I hear correctly, saying that Mokwena was not a member of the Youth League? MR MOTLOKWA Mokwena was a member of the Youth League Sir. MR MALAN Did you say the other person was not a member of the Youth League? CHAIRPERSON Tusanang. MR MOTLOKWA Tusanang and Buthelezi. MR MALAN But Buthelezi was captured only at 5 o'clock you said. At 3 o'clock you captured Tusanang and Mokwena? MR MOTLOKWA No, Sir, no Chairperson. I already explained that at 3 o'clock we caught two people, that was Mokwena and the second one I do not know. MR MALAN It wasn't Tusanang? MR MOTLOKWA No, it was Tusanang. MR MALAN So it was Mokwena but the other one you did not know? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MALAN And then this Tusanang, who is he? Did you ever capture him? MR MOTLOKWA Tusanang was captured but he managed to escape at the meeting. MR MALAN Have you ever seen him again? MR MOTLOKWA No, he ran away, he fled Katlehong. MR MALAN And he was not a member of the Youth League you say? MR MOTLOKWA No, he was not a member of the Youth League according to my knowledge. MR MALAN But you did say yesterday that you saw Tusanang with an AK47 at Blanko's house when you were woken up. MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MALAN But he was not a member of the Youth League? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Sir. MR MALAN Why would he have been there with the Youth League if the Youth League killed Blanko? MR MOTLOKWA I think I explained yesterday that the third force must have been involved here in trying to get rid of the SDU because if you look deep into this, Buthelezi was not a member of the Youth League but he was involved, Tusanang was not a member of the Youth League but he was involved, so it really surprised us why were they involved in the killing of Blanko. MR MAPOMA So you confirm that Tusanang and Buthelezi were members of the community at Moleleki also? MR MOTLOKWA Yes, I would confirm that. MR MAPOMA Now let's come to the meeting which was chaired by or which was addressed by Machinini, where actually was this meeting held? MR MOTLOKWA This was a meeting at Blanko's place. MR MAPOMA Now, was it a community meeting which was convened or was it a place where people gathered to see what happened at Blanko's place out of interest? MR MOTLOKWA I would say it was a community meeting because the vice chairperson of the zonal civic addressed them because after he arrived many people came. The issue discussed was the death of these two people. MR MAPOMA Now, this chairperson, was it Machinini? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MAPOMA Did Machinini ask certain questions from the captured? MR MOTLOKWA No, Chair, he did not ask them questions. I said Ntjebe Ndondolo was the person who was asking questions. MR MAPOMA Are you saying that Machinini who was chairing a meeting gave Ntjebe Ndondolo an opportunity to ask the captured? MR MOTLOKWA I do not have evidence to that fact, as to whether Machinini gave Ntjebe a chance to ask them questions but Ntjebe is the person who was asking questions. CHAIRPERSON Where is Ntjebe? MR MOTLOKWA I don't know, he's somewhere in the Transkei. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chair. Now when exactly did Ntjebe ask these questions of the captured, was it before the meeting or when the meeting was going on, when precisely? MR MOTLOKWA It was during the process of the meeting but he called them aside, they were not in the meeting. CHAIRPERSON He called the captured persons to the side and then questioned them? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Were you present when that occurred, when they were being questioned? MR MOTLOKWA I said Ntjebe asked them questions and he came to tell us their responses. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MOTATA But Mr Motlokwa if you can assist us here, I want to understand this, that you said Buthelezi's son said at the meeting: "Dad tell us why you said we should go and kill Blanko or Bulelwa", but now you say Ntjebe called these captured people aside and asked them what precisely did he also now, that is Buthelezi's son, say it aside and Ntjebe coming to report to the meeting what Buthelezi's son had said. MR MOTLOKWA Chairperson, let me put it this way, after Ntjebe questioned them he came to report back and then we went and then his son, Buthelezi's son said: "Dad speak, you sent us to kill Blanko". CHAIRPERSON Where was his father then? MR MOTLOKWA He was in the meeting Sir. CHAIRPERSON In the meeting, but in relation to where the son was and where the questioning was taking place, where was the father? MR MOTLOKWA I would not estimate his position or the distance from the son but he was in the meeting. CHAIRPERSON I get the impression that the father, that is Buthelezi, must have been close by where the questioning was taking place for the son to have said: "Father tell them, you are the one who said we must go to Blanko's place". MR MOTLOKWA Sir, he did not speak soft, he shouted, he said: "Dad, tell them, tell them that you are the person who sent us to kill Blanko". He did not say it soft. The community heard that Buthelezi sent them. CHAIRPERSON Presumably the son could see where the father was or that the father was present at the meeting? MR MOTLOKWA He might have seen him Sir. MR MALAN Can you just tell us again, what was the time that this meeting was held, the time of day? MR MOTLOKWA I would not remember the time but it was in the morning, 6 until 7 o'clock in the morning. MR MALAN May I just pursue again, sorry Mr Mapoma. This Tusanang, who captured him? MR MOTLOKWA Tusanang was also captured at the meeting but he survived, he escaped. MR MALAN Was he captured at the meeting or was he captured and brought to the meeting? MR MOTLOKWA He came with Sugar and them but he managed to survive. MR MALAN Did Sugar capture him at some other place, Sugar's group? MR MOTLOKWA Sir, I think they came - he came with Sugar's group. MR MALAN How many people were captured when that meeting was held at 6 o'clock? How many people, captured people did you have at the meeting? MR MOTLOKWA I would say there were 10 because Tusanang managed to escape. MR MALAN And this meeting was a meeting of the community and you said earlier there were about 500 people? MR MOTLOKWA Yes, that's an estimation, I'm not sure. MR MALAN How did he escape? MR MOTLOKWA We were also surprised as to how he escaped, he must have used his tactics. We wanted him, he was nowhere to be found. MR MALAN He was captured, and I think you earlier said that some of them were already tied, was Tusanang not tied? Why not? MR MOTLOKWA I already said that after the meeting they were tied, then they were taken to that shack. They were still free during his escape. MR MALAN May I just pursue the nature of this meeting again. You say 6 o'clock in the morning, the sun has been up for less than an hour, you have 500 hundred people there, Machinini, the Chair of the civics is there, you say he's chairing the meeting but no questions asked, Ndondolo reports. Did Machinini speak at that meeting? MR MOTLOKWA Machinini was addressing the meeting, he addressed the meeting. MR MALAN What was his address about, what did he say? MR MOTLOKWA He was addressing the issue of Bulelwa and Blanko. He was addressing crime in general in Moleleki section. MR MALAN What did he say about Bulelwa and Blanko? MR MOTLOKWA He was saying criminal activities must be done away with in Moleleki. MR MALAN Did he say criminal activities or did he say criminals? If I may repeat the question, did he say that people must be killed or did he say crime must stop? MR MOTLOKWA He did not say people must be killed, he said crime must be stopped. MR MOTATA Mr Motlokwa, I understood you yesterday to say that Katlehong with it's various sections was engulfed in violence and criminal activities and whilst Machinini was now addressing the meeting at the early hours of the morning at Blanko's place, why do you think he only spoke of Moleleki section and not Katlehong as a whole? MR MOTLOKWA Sir, Machinini came with Manyala, Ntjebe and the three who were caught and he came with the intention of addressing the meeting because he was the vice chairperson of Zone 5. MR MOTATA Zone 5 would be Moleleki section? MR MOTLOKWA Zone 5 included Moleleki, Seloma, Moleleki and other sections. MR MOTATA Thank you Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA Thank you Sir. Now in that meeting, were the parents and relatives of those captured present? MR MOTLOKWA I did not notice them, whether they were there or not but Buthelezi was present because his son managed to point him but I did not notice the others. MR MAPOMA Now in that meeting, was there at no stage where the parents of these children were asked their whereabouts? MR MOTLOKWA No, Sir. MR MAPOMA I take it Judge, that the majority of those were youths, is it correct? MR MOTLOKWA Yes. MR MAPOMA And it was a question of children behaving themselves in a manner unbecoming in the community, isn't it so? MR MOTLOKWA I said already that they were the members of the ANC Youth League but their behaviour was not good at all within the community. MR MAPOMA Now, if a child misbehaves in the community generally, is it not expected that a parent of that child is called and told of the activities of the child? Is it not a general exercise? MR MOTLOKWA Chairperson, it depended on the nature of the committed act and the emotions and the anger of the people, you can't control people's emotions. MR MAPOMA Is there no-one of the parents of those children who wanted to speak in that meeting, as far as you remember? MR MOTLOKWA I do not remember Sir. MR MAPOMA Did you know any of the parents of those children who were captured at that time? MR MOTLOKWA I did not know any parent but last year on television, it was around October if I'm not mistaken, there was this info programme on SABC television and the parents of the deceased appeared on that programme and one family went to the veld where the deceased were killed and the head was still on the body. When she went to the mortuary the body was separated from the head. Now this surprised me a lot because during the killing I didn't notice anybody chopping off the head. I am here today to tell the truth and I am not going to hide anything. I did not see anyone of us removing the head from the body. MR MAPOMA But that was not my question, my question was, is there anyone of those captured whose parents you knew at the time of the meeting? MR MOTLOKWA During the meeting I did not know any family, I knew Mokwena's family thereafter. MR MAPOMA Now, after the meeting, where were these youths taken? MR MOTLOKWA They were taken to a shack that I've referred to yesterday. MR MAPOMA Where was that shack actually? MR MOTLOKWA In block F. MR MAPOMA Who's shack was it? MR MOTLOKWA Nobody owned the shack Sir. MR MAPOMA What do you mean by that, are you saying it was an empty shack that was not occupied by anyone? MR MOTLOKWA That was an empty shack Sir, because many inhabitants of F ran away from that area because that area was close to Zongezizwe and they were attacked by members of the IFP. MR MAPOMA When they were taken to the shack, how many were they? MR MOTLOKWA I can't be specific but I think there were eight because Vips and Manyala left with them in a kombi. MR MAPOMA Vips and Manyala left with them in a kombi, where was Vips from? MR MOTLOKWA Vips went with this group, went back with this group. This is the group that was arrested when it went to report. MR MAPOMA Are you saying Vips is one of those who were in the community meeting, those captured who were there in the community meeting? MR MOTLOKWA Sir, Manyala and Machinini arrived in a kombi. MR MAPOMA Where did they arrive, in the meeting? MR MOTLOKWA Yes. MR MAPOMA Now, was Vips taken to join other captured? MR MOTLOKWA No, Sir, he was not taken to the shack. I already said that when they came with him he was half naked and they went back with him. MR MAPOMA Now let me get this correctly, you are saying they came with Vips in a kombi? MR MOTLOKWA Yes, that is correct. MR MAPOMA Into a meeting? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MAPOMA Now when Vips was taken to a meeting, was Vips taken to join the others who were captured, in that meeting? MR MOTLOKWA He was tied in the kombi, he did not get out of the kombi, he did not see the others. He did not go to the others who were captured at the meeting, he was tied in the kombi. MR MAPOMA In that community meeting the community did not see Vips, is that what I understand? MR MOTLOKWA Sir, the kombis are transparent, they must have seen him but what I mean is that he was not taken out of the kombi to the community. MR MAPOMA Okay. So when the others were taken into the shack, how many were they? MR MOTLOKWA I think - it means there were eight because Vips left with them, with the others. MR MAPOMA Are there no others youths who were captured but who were not necessarily killed? MR MOTLOKWA I already mentioned that we fought in the early hours of the morning, it might have happened that many of them escaped. The person who I saw escape from the community was Tusanang, he was already captured and he escaped but I do not know about the others. MR MOTLOKWA Now let me understand this correctly, is it not correct that at a certain point there were some youths who were released from those who were captured? MR MOTLOKWA I said that one of them was mistakenly identified and then he was released. CHAIRPERSON Do you know who that was? MR MOTLOKWA I know his father, I do not know his name. CHAIRPERSON What is this father's name? MR MOTLOKWA Mr Ngobese, N-G-O-B-E-S-E. MR MAPOMA Now at which stage was Mr Ngobese's son released? MR MOTLOKWA When they confirmed that he was not the right person he was immediately released. MR MAPOMA Where was that? Was it in a shack or in the meeting? MR MOTLOKWA It was at the meeting at E section. MR MAPOMA At the meeting you said was at Blanko's place? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MAPOMA Now that is the only youth you know of who was released? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct, we did not have evidence about his involvement and he was released. MR MAPOMA So if I get your evidence well, all those youths who were captured except one, were then taken and killed? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MAPOMA So, are you saying any information which says that at least four youths were released is not correct as far as you are concerned? MR MOTLOKWA I would not say it's incorrect or it is correct. I said that we split into two groups, maybe they were released by the other group but not mine. MR MAPOMA Now in that shack, when the youths were taken to a shack, were you there in the shack? MR MOTLOKWA Sir, I went to the shack when our commander issued out an order that they should, they must be fetched. MR MAPOMA Now to a shack, is it your evidence that Mr Buthelezi was taken together with the youths from Blanko's place where the meeting was, to a shack? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct, all of them were tied up in the shack, all of them. MR MAPOMA Now, if any suggestion is that Mr Buthelezi happened to be captured because he went to a shack to look for his child and then was captured in that process, is that evidence not correct as far as you are concerned? MR MOTLOKWA That is incorrect Sir. MR MAPOMA Okay. Now this decision to kill them, when exactly was it communicated to you, when you were still at Blanko's place or at some other stage? MR MOTLOKWA It was after the meeting at Blanko's place, an order was issued out that they be killed. MR MAPOMA In that meeting which was chaired by Machinini, was there any resolution taken that the youth be killed? MR MOTLOKWA I said that Machinini did not pronounce the death of these people, he was actually addressing the issue of stability in Moleleki, that crime must be stopped. And the people, the community, raised their views, they said they must be killed but the Chairperson of that meeting did not agree to that decision. MR MAPOMA Do you remember any, a single member of the community who came with that suggestion that they be killed? MR MOTLOKWA Unfortunately it's hard to recall, I won't be specific as to who said they must be killed. MR MAPOMA So out of those views which were given by some people in the meeting, then an instruction from the SDU leadership came to you that they be killed, is that what I understand? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MAPOMA Now Machinini, let me get Machinini's role, was he chairing this meeting or was he addressing as a speaker in the meeting? MR MOTLOKWA He was chairing the meeting Sir. MR MAPOMA Now in the process of chairing the meeting there are some decisions which are taken and the chairperson conveys those decisions to the meeting, is that not correct? MR MOTLOKWA Who was taking the decisions Sir? MR MAPOMA I'm just asking a general question now. In the normal course of a meeting a resolution is taken and the meeting conveys that resolution to the members of the meeting, that this is a resolution, is that not correct? MR MOTLOKWA In general that is the procedure. MR MAPOMA Yes. Now in this particular instance, is there any stage where Machinini announced that it is resolved by the community that these youths who were captured must be killed? MR MOTLOKWA No, Sir, he never said that, he never announced that. MR MAPOMA Will I be understanding it correctly if I say that it was never a decision of the community that the youths be killed? MR MOTLOKWA A decision was not taken by the chairman of the meeting that those youths be killed, an order was issued out by the commander of the SDU that these youths be killed. MR MAPOMA Thank you, through you Mr Chairperson. Now how, in your opinion, did the meeting resolve the issue of the captured youths, what should be done about them? MR MOTLOKWA Some members of the community wanted these youths to be killed. I have already said that Machinini addressed the issue of stopping crime in Moleleki, the order came from the commander. MR MAPOMA Thank you Mr Chairperson. Now, do you know Sepo Baloi? MR MOTLOKWA I remember him. MR MAPOMA Was he not amongst the youth who were captured? MR MOTLOKWA According to my little knowledge he is one of those who left with Ntjebe. I indicated yesterday that the vice chairperson of the section left with the commander to go and fetch the Red Cross but on their way in block A they were shot at by the youth. CHAIRPERSON Where does Sepo Baloi come into the picture? MR MOTLOKWA Sir, there were rumours that Sepo Baloi was involved in the planning of the assault on members of the SDU but it was discovered later that rumour was not true. He in fact left with Ntjebe to go and fetch the Red Cross car to remove the body, so this was rumour was destroyed. MR MAPOMA Let's come to the incident of the killing. So the order was to kill the youth and your intention when you took them to the veld was to kill them as instructed? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Sir. MR MAPOMA Now, after the killing, what did you do? After you killed them, what did you do? MR MOTLOKWA After killing them I left for my home, I went to my home because I told you earlier on that I was instructed to rest and after executing this task I went home, I did not do anything thereafter. MR MAPOMA What time of the day did you kill them? MR MOTLOKWA It would be difficult to recall an incident of 1993 but it was on the 7th. MR MAPOMA Yes, I understand, I understand very well Mr Motlokwa. I just want to find out, was it midday, was it in the morning, was it in the afternoon, evening? MR MOTLOKWA It was in the morning Sir. MR MAPOMA Now do you understand that Mr Buthelezi's wife was also killed after that incident? MR MOTLOKWA Chair, I heard that Mrs Buthelezi was also killed but I don't knowledge as to who killed her. MR MAPOMA Did you hear that she was also killed by the members of the Self-defence Unit? MR MOTLOKWA Ntjebe is the relevant person to answer that question, I told you already that I left for my house. What transpired after the eight were killed I do not know. MR MALAN Could I just ask here? According to Advocate Madasa you are applying for amnesty for the killing of all the victims except Bulelwa, now on the list of victims is also the name of Mrs Buthelezi. If you have no knowledge of that, why do you apply for amnesty for the death of Mrs Buthelezi? MR MOTLOKWA The list from the Attorney General's office doesn't have Mrs Buthelezi's name. If ever she had been killed by members of the SDU, the relevant person to answer that question would be Ntjebe. I've only applied for those eight people, not even Vips because Vips was also part of this group so I've applied for amnesty to that effect. MR MAPOMA Are you saying you have applied for amnesty for only those people for whose death you stand charged? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. ...[End of tape 1B, day 2 - no follow-on sound] MR MAPOMA ...[no sound] what you did when you killed those whom you killed was politically motivated, how do you say that it was politically motivated to kill those people? MR MOTLOKWA The task of the SDU was to defend the community. MR MAPOMA Yes. But the community had an opportunity to decide what it is that has to be done about these youths and it did not resolve that these youths must be killed. How do you explain this one? MR MOTLOKWA Chairperson, if we speak of the SDU and the civic, these are similar organisations but an order is not issued out in front of everybody, it must be directed to members of the SDU. Even members of the community who wanted to be part of the killing, Ntjebe did not allow them to take part in the killing because he only wanted members of the SDU. MR MAPOMA So the killing of the youths was an instruction which came from neither the community nor the African National Congress? MR MOTLOKWA I said the order was from Ndondolo. MR MAPOMA Thank you Mr Chairperson, those are my questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Is there any re-examination Mr Madasa? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA Yes, Mr Chair. At the meeting at Blanko's place you were not in control of the meeting, is that correct? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MADASA You were not chairing the meeting, is that correct? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Sir. MR MADASA You've told us about your own observations at the meeting, is that correct? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MADASA You do not know all that happened at the meeting, is that correct? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Chair. MR MADASA The meeting had many people and there was movement at the meeting, is that correct? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MADASA Emotions of people at the meeting were highly charged, is that correct? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MADASA No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA CHAIRPERSON The members of the Committee will now put questions to you Mr Motlokwa. Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to put to Mr Motlokwa? MR SIBANYONI Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Motlokwa, when listening to your evidence I have this feeling that it would appear that Vips was treated differently from the other people. You were saying for some time he was kept in a kombi and when the execution took place, Vips was not killed by you but he was killed by the other people. Can you please clarify me on that? MR MOTLOKWA Chair, I said already that Vips was not killed with the rest of the group. He left with Manyala and them and they took him to Kumalo section. Kumalo and Moleleki sections are not the same. They took him to that section to kill him there, I don't know the reasons thereof but he was killed. MR SIBANYONI And then you have just said you applied for the killing of eight people but I see in your application, paragraph A, sub-paragraph I, you are saying when the question says "Acts or omissions of offences" you say: "nine : murder and thirteen kidnapping" and then on sub-paragraph 4, you are saying: "We killed nine of these gangsters" Can you explain this difference? MR MOTLOKWA Chairperson, it is so in my application. I've applied for amnesty for killing nine people and thirteen cases of kidnapping. I'm applying for nine because I was part and parcel of the SDU, now I was present and involved when these eight people were killed, Vips included, because he was at the meeting and that is why I'm also asking for amnesty with regard to his case. MR SIBANYONI And earlier you said when you were asked: "Did you raise this matter with the ANC"?, first of all you said you wrote a letter, should I understand that you were part of the people who drafted the letter or you were not? MR MOTLOKWA Vusi drafted the letter. MR SIBANYONI You were not part of that process? MR MOTLOKWA It's the executive Sir, the executive of the SDU. MR SIBANYONI If there was supposed to be a meeting between the SDU's and the ANC or if the matter was supposed to be raised at that level, would you be the person who should take the initiative or somebody else or other people were supposed to do that? MR MOTLOKWA If the meeting would have succeeded I would not be present because I was not a - the member of the executive would be there and then they would give us the feedback at a general meeting because the executive of the SDU had its own meetings separate from the general meetings. MR SIBANYONI Now your position in the SDU's, was it at a level where you could be part of the decision making or not? MR MOTLOKWA No, Sir, I was at a lower level, I was an operator. I was only given orders, I would not have taken any decision. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan? MR MALAN Thank you Chair. I have a number of matter which I'd like some clarity on, the first is the relation between the ANC Youth League and the SDU. In your evidence, you said part of the problems you had with the Youth League was that they were harassing the Zulu speaking people and they were also doing crime, is that correct? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MALAN Now we also have information in one of your co-applicants' application form that the youth had a very bad relationship with Ndondolo, with Ntjebe, they didn't like him. Is that correct? MR MOTLOKWA I do not have evidence to that effect Sir. MR MALAN From the applications it seems that the majority of the applicants are Xhosa speaking but the majority of the victims are Zulus. MR MOTLOKWA I don't know Sir, whether they are Xhosas or Zulu victims. I think we are multi-racial Sir, I don't regard that as a Xhosa group. MR MALAN Mr Motlokwa, you gave evidence on several occasions referring to Xhosa speaking and Zulu speaking people, why now suddenly is everybody multi-racial? MR MOTLOKWA Explain your question further Sir. MR MALAN I was asking whether indeed there was a division between Xhosa and Zulu dominance in the SDU and in the Youth League. MR MOTLOKWA I did not put it that way. I said, within the SDU the Youth League was ruled by the Xhosas, people who came from the rural areas, I think I put it that way. I didn't say there was a fight between the Xhosas and the Zulu's within the ANC Youth League. I said the youth said they were not going to be ruled by people from the rural areas. MR MALAN You indeed said Transkei. MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MALAN Now why would they not be ruled by people from the Transkei? MR MOTLOKWA They have knowledge to that effect, they know why they don't want to be ruled by people from the rural area. MR MALAN In some of the applications and especially in some of the statements from victims there's reference to the parents and especially the mothers of some of the people who were killed, who wanted to stop the killing, do you have any knowledge of any of the mothers trying to prevent the killing of their children? MR MOTLOKWA Unfortunately I did not see mothers trying to plead for their children, I did not see them. MR MALAN Have you no knowledge of any parent who pleaded for the lives of their children? MR MOTLOKWA No. MR MALAN There will also be evidence or there is evidence before us in writing from some of the mothers saying that when they wanted to stop this killing, when you were taking the children out into the veld, that they were told: "You can pick up your dogs in the veld". MR MOTLOKWA That is news to me. MR MALAN You have at no stage had any of the parents of the deceased intervening or pleading or talking on behalf of their children? MR MOTLOKWA No, Chairperson. I said I did not see them pleading for their children. MR MALAN And neither did you hear them plead? MR MOTLOKWA After these children were killed I only saw parents crying but to plead for the lives of their children, I did not see. MR MALAN You talked about shootings on more than one occasion. The one occasion was when some of your members went to fetch the Red Cross, you say they were shot at by the youths, was anybody injured? They managed to escape you say, was any one of them injured? MR MOTLOKWA No-one was injured. The car was damaged, all the windows were shattered but they survived. MR MALAN And on the occasion of the capture of the first two persons, that was preceded by a shoot-out you said. MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MALAN Can you tell me a little about that shooting, was there being shot from both sides? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct, both sides were shooting but I do not know whether on their side they were hit by bullets but on our side nobody was injured. MR MALAN But you captured two people there at that shooting? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MALAN Were there more people? MR MOTLOKWA Yes, there were more people but they ran away. MR MALAN But you captured two? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MALAN Did they have guns? MR MOTLOKWA No, they only had parcels, the things they took from the Spaza shop. CHAIRPERSON Would this be from Blanko's Spaza shop? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Chair. MR MALAN That fight, the second shoot-out that you're talking about, in your evidence in chief you said that you were fighting with them until 3 o'clock in the morning, so how long did that shoot-out last? MR MOTLOKWA I said Chair, that we went out looking for them and when we found them the shooting ensued and they ran away and we followed them, looking around, there were no lights but we were in the company of the captured two. MR MALAN Then on several occasions you used the phrase that: "When people are angry they can't be controlled, their emotions were high", in fact in re-examination your advocate put this question to you again about the high emotions and the uncotrollability of people, that is correct? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MALAN Now, Bulelwa and Blanko were very close to the SDU, you worked together? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MALAN When they were killed, were the members of the SDU angry? MR MOTLOKWA Yes. I told you already that Bulelwa was killed at about 9 o'clock and then I was fetched from home to guard the corpse and after Bulelwa's death Blanko was attacked. MR MALAN The question is not about the facts, my question is about your members then being very angry and emotions running high, is that correct? MR MOTLOKWA Yes, their emotions were high. MR MALAN I would simply say to myself, the emotions amongst the members of the SDU must have been even higher than amongst the community. MR MOTLOKWA I don't know whether the emotions of the SDU and the emotions of the community, I can't tell who among the two was emotionally high. CHAIRPERSON We will take the tea adjournment, we will come back at twenty past eleven. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION M O MOTLOKWA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, is there any reason why we are starting 10 minutes late? MR MAPOMA No, Chairperson, I think there may have been a lack of communication because I came and warned the Committee members that I will depend on them but otherwise we are ready. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Is the first applicant here? MR MAPOMA He has not yet arrived Chairperson, but the briefing I got from our logistics officer is that these police confirmed that they are coming with him but he is not yet here. CHAIRPERSON How long does it take to go to prison and bring a person to Boksburg from Johannesburg? MR MAPOMA To be honest Chairperson, that is what I myself find very difficult to understand. CHAIRPERSON Yes, okay. Would you please investigate the cause of this delay and please let us know what is the cause of the delay because I find this unacceptable. The first applicant should have been here this morning when we commenced proceedings. MR MALAN Mr Motlokwa, may I pursue two matters. The first is, in your evidence in chief you said that if you are on patrol and you find someone on the street and he does not respond it's very difficult, you were talking about the curfew. Were you saying that some of these people were shot on the spot? MR MOTLOKWA Chairperson, we did not shoot at people during the patrol, we did not shoot at people during the patrol Chairperson. MR MALAN So what was the difficulty them if people didn't respond, what did you do? MR MOTLOKWA I said yesterday that we will report this to the community, we will tell the community that there are people who disturb us in our duty. MR MALAN But you did nothing to the people, you don't capture them, you don't apprehend the, you just report that there are people, is that what you're saying? MR MOTLOKWA Chairperson, some of them were assaulted at times. MR MALAN Yes? MR MOTLOKWA They would be assaulted and that person would be accompanied to his home so that he could sleep. MR MALAN And if you would find that that person is not living in the community? MR MOTLOKWA Chairperson, you now want me to speak about the Katlehong in general. If we shout: "One" and he doesn't respond: "One", then it was difficult for us because at times this person would shoot at us and then we have to act, if he acts then we act. MR MALAN How did you act, that was the question that I asked in the beginning? Did you shoot back or did you shoot first on occasions? MR MOTLOKWA We shoot back. MR MALAN Then, the second issue that I want to canvass is the division between the SDU and the Youth League. In your evidence in chief again you said that in the beginning they were part of the SDU, you were patrolling together. MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MALAN And at some stage they became divided, that was your evidence. MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Sir. MR MALAN You said they then became independent of you. MR MOTLOKWA That is correct, they left us and they became independent. MR MALAN So they were patrolling by themselves in some areas? MR MOTLOKWA Yes. MR MALAN Now we have evidence from some of the witnesses, on paper at this stage, saying that the Youth League at the time was patrolling sections A,B,C and D and that the SDU's were patrolling E and F, is that correct? MR MOTLOKWA No, Sir, that is not true. MR MALAN Now how did you patrol separately, was there not a geographical division? MR MOTLOKWA The SDU patrolled the whole of Moleleki, all the blocks were patrolled by the SDU. MR MALAN And the Youth League, did they have their independent patrols also in all the blocks? MR MOTLOKWA I do not know whether they patrolled, I do not know of their patrol. CHAIRPERSON As I understand the structure, in Katlehong you have various sections such as Moleleki, Twala and others, is that right? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And then within each section there are blocks. MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON The SDU's and the ANC Youth League patrolled different sections or different blocks within the sections? MR MOTLOKWA Chair, are you referring to the SDU in Katlehong in general or the SDU in Moleleki? CHAIRPERSON Well, firstly in Katlehong and then in Moleleki. MR MOTLOKWA According to my little knowledge, the people who patrolled were the members of the SDU, the Youth League was under the control of the SDU. I told you already that on my arrival at Moleleki the ANC Youth League was patrolling but thereafter the SDU was formed. CHAIRPERSON I understand that, I just want you to deal with the period after some members but not all members of the ANC Youth League decided to break away from the SDU, do you remember that stage? MR MOTLOKWA I remember that stage Sir. CHAIRPERSON At the stage when some members of the SDU decided to bread away from the SDU, did those members of the ANC Youth League who broke away from the SDU patrol the township? MR MOTLOKWA After they separated themselves from us, I mentioned yesterday that they started their criminal activities, robbing of taxis, taking people's properties, shooting at bakeries, taking targets. CHAIRPERSON But were they doing that under the pretext that they were patrolling the township? MR MOTLOKWA I would say they shielded themselves with the organisation. CHAIRPERSON Which organisation? MR MOTLOKWA They Youth League. CHAIRPERSON When they engaged in these activities, how did they justify them? Did they say the were patrolling or did they claim they were protecting the community? We do note that, I think you told us yesterday, that at some point they killed Majosi who was the member of the Communist Party I think. MR MOTLOKWA That is correct and his two cousins. CHAIRPERSON Now when they did these acts, did they claim to be protecting the community? MR MOTLOKWA It was difficult because if we asked them, say for instance you approach a PAC member and you ask him, then the policies would differ, now there was a problem already. The executive went to them to ask them why they hit Majosi, they said they were sorry they thought it was Inkatha. Sir, if you look carefully at this issue they always hit at a person who has a tuck shop. They would hit that person and rob him of his money. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR MALAN If members of the Youth League would be saying that they also independently patrolled A,B,C, and D blocks, would you dispute that? MR MOTLOKWA I would not dispute that. I told you that they were doing their own things but not under the SDU. MR MALAN No but Mr Motlokwa, I said that this was after - in terms of your evidence, they became independent. My question was, after they became independent, did they further patrol parts of Moleleki? MR MOTLOKWA Chairperson, I told you that we patrolled the whole of Moleleki, we have never met them patrolling. We were the only people patrolling Moleleki. CHAIRPERSON You would not know though whether - what the activities that they engaged in, were engaged in, in the process of their patrolling the areas that they claim to have been patrolling at the time? MR MOTLOKWA Can you repeat your question Sir? CHAIRPERSON After some of the members of the ANC Youth League had broken away from the SDU they were no longer subject to the discipline of the SDU leadership. I think you told us that they began to engage in criminal activities. MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You have no knowledge of the fact that they were patrolling the township? MR MOTLOKWA We discovered that there was a rumour, it looked like they were patrolling with very small children but to my knowledge they were not patrolling. CHAIRPERSON So, if they claimed that they were patrolling certain blocks within Moleleki for example, they may well have done that but that was not under the auspices of the SDU? MR MOTLOKWA There is that possibility. Maybe they patrolled, the SDU didn't know that. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MALAN The last issue is, there was a question whether there was a meeting to reconcile and you told about the meeting that was called by central and the Youth League was there and that you were suspended for three months and your arms were taken away, confiscated. Why were you suspended? MR MOTLOKWA Chairperson, if you talk of peace you must leave behind the arms. We were suspended for three months pending the investigations as to the cause of the conflict between the ANC Youth League and the SDU. After three months the suspension was lifted and we went back but it was difficult for the ANC Youth League to be suspended because during our suspension some of our members were attacked. MR MALAN Who patrolled Moleleki in the time of your suspension? MR MOTLOKWA Central sent people. MR MALAN Was there no action taken at that stage against the Youth League? MR MOTLOKWA No, Sir. MR MALAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Who took the decision to suspend you? MR MOTLOKWA The decision was taken at central. There was a meeting that both parties be suspended and be disarmed and they took our arms and we were suspended for three months. After those three months we were given our arms back. CHAIRPERSON But this suspension only affected those members of the SDU who patrolled Moleleki section? MR MOTLOKWA The aim of the suspension was to suspend both the ANC Youth League and the SDU. As the members of the SDU we handed in our arms but the ANC Youth League did not hand in its arms. CHAIRPERSON Were the members of the SDU who were suspended - in other words were all the members of the SDU suspended? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Including those who patrolled other sections? MR MOTLOKWA Moleleki section only. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I thought so. So only those members of the SDU who patrolled Moleleki section were suspended? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And the purpose of the suspension was to investigate the cause of the conflict between the SDU members and the ANC Youth League in Moleleki? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Your arms were then confiscated in the process? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON But the ANC Youth League did not surrender their arms? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You told us that the ANC Youth League broke away from the SDU, I'm talking about Moleleki section, you remember that? MR MOTLOKWA I remember that. CHAIRPERSON Did ANC Youth Leagues formally announce their withdrawal from the SDU? MR MOTLOKWA No, they did not do it formally. There was no meeting held where they pronounced that they are separating from us. CHAIRPERSON But how was their intention to withdraw from the SDU communicated to the members of the SDU? MR MOTLOKWA They were no longer attending the patrols, we only saw two of them and the rest had already left. I already alluded to the fact that there was another group of youths and they occupied the shacks that were vacant and we realised that they were engaged in criminal acts, because one day when they were asleep we got into their shacks and we found car radios and many things. CHAIRPERSON Now this group of youths which now occupied block F, were they members of the ANC Youth League? MR MOTLOKWA Some were members of the Youth League and some I did not know because I did not know their origin, we heard that they were members of the ANC Youth League. CHAIRPERSON Subsequent to their withdrawal from the SDU's were they ever approached for reasons for their withdrawal? MR MOTLOKWA We did not approach them. CHAIRPERSON On a Thursday when you returned from custody in connection with your trial, Lucky approached you and told you that he wanted to assault members of the SDU, is that what he told you? MR MOTLOKWA Let me rectify that Sir. He did not come to me, we did not meet, we met on Friday when he said he has already organised the youth because they want to assault these men. I don't what he referred to when he said they were an obstacle in their way. CHAIRPERSON Which men was he referring to? MR MOTLOKWA The members of the SDU. CHAIRPERSON He told you that he had already organised the youth because the SDU wanted to attack them? MR MOTLOKWA No, Sir, no. CHAIRPERSON What did he tell you then? MR MOTLOKWA He said they have organised the youth and during those days they were going to attach those men. When I asked why, he said their guns had been confiscated and the same Friday I went to report to Ntjebe. CHAIRPERSON Who had organised the youth? Who did he say had organised the youth? MR MOTLOKWA He said they themselves organised the youth, he did not specifically tell me. He said they themselves had organised the youth so that those men be assaulted. CHAIRPERSON In other words Lucky told you that the ANC Youth League had organised the youth? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And the intention of organising the youth was to assault the SDU members? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON Because the SDU members were an obstacle? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Do you know why he would - he knew that you were a member of the SDU, did he not? MR MOTLOKWA He knew very well. CHAIRPERSON Now do you know why he would tell you this? MR MOTLOKWA According to my recollection I think I told you that when I arrived in Moleleki the ANC Youth League was patrolling and I patrolled with them. When the stability unit was troubling them I gave them money so that can run away, so he came to me knowing that I am the person who assisted them. And I tried to convince him that: "Look here, if you attack them there's going to be a huge conflict". CHAIRPERSON Did he consider you to be sympathetic towards the ANC Youth League? MR MOTLOKWA He knew that I'm a peace-loving person, I was on good terms with everybody. CHAIRPERSON Ntjebe Ndondolo and others went to the Red Cross to seek assistance for the removal of Bulelwa's body, is that right? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON ...[End of tape 2, day 2, side A - no follow-on sound] MR MOTLOKWA ...[no sound] Sepo Baloi Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And who else? MR MOTLOKWA And the driver but I just happen to forget the driver's name, they were three. CHAIRPERSON Do you know what happened to Mokwena? MR MOTLOKWA Which Mokwena are you referring to? CHAIRPERSON This is now Mokwena who was captured I think in the early hours on the 7th of December 1993. MR MOTLOKWA I know what happened to Mokwena. CHAIRPERSON Yes, well what happened to him? MR MOTLOKWA Mokwena was left alone because he just small, he was a little boy. MR MALAN You say Mokwena was a little boy. According to our records Mokwena was older than Mavuso, Peter Mavuso Modishwa and he was older than Thokozani Buthelezi and he was older than Mtumaleng Moetsi(?), why were the other boys then killed? MR MOTLOKWA Chairperson yes, you are referring to their ages but when we looked at then he was a small person in body, we must have thought that he was little. CHAIRPERSON There is an allegation somewhere in the papers to the effect that the persons who were captured and eventually killed had been told that on that evening the instability unit would come for them and therefore they should go and seek refuge in a shack in F section -in block F, Moleleki section, do you know anything about that? MR MOTLOKWA No, Sir, I do not know anything about those allegations. CHAIRPERSON As far as you can recall only one youth of those who had been captured was released? MR MOTLOKWA I mentioned Mokwena from the onset, he was the first one that was captured together with this other one, which means that Mokwena is alive today. I mentioned this yesterday because I said yesterday: "One of them has since died". Maybe you did not understand me well, I'm sorry about that part. CHAIRPERSON No, no, no, I understood you very well. What you did say is that, as far as you can recall only one person was released because it had been discovered that he had been captured by mistake. MR MOTLOKWA I remember I said that. CHAIRPERSON Who is this person? MR MOTLOKWA I mentioned that Ngobese's child was released. CHAIRPERSON So Mokwena would be the second person who was also released? MR MOTLOKWA That is the case. CHAIRPERSON Apart from those two, do you know of any other person who were released? MR MOTLOKWA I told you already that Tusanang managed to escape. I told you already that we went out in two groups, maybe the other group caught people and they released them, I don't know but I know of these two plus the one who escaped which means that there are three. CHAIRPERSON Do you know Vuyani Shabalala? MR MOTLOKWA No, Sir. CHAIRPERSON There's an allegation that Vuyani Shabalala was amongst who were taken to the veld where the rest of the persons were killed but that he survived the shooting, do you anything about that? MR MOTLOKWA Chairperson, I discovered in jail that one of the eight people survived, he managed to wake up. But according to the way we assaulted them and killed them, we were sure that nobody was going to survive. It really took me by surprise that Shabalala survived. CHAIRPERSON But do you know who the person is who survived? MR MOTLOKWA I was told that it is Shabalala. CHAIRPERSON There is a further allegation that all in all 13 youths and one adult had been - were abducted, do you know? MR MOTLOKWA I do not know anything about those allegations. As I've mentioned I would not even deny that because we went out in two separate groups but our group was not involved in that. CHAIRPERSON Let me just make sure that I understand your evidence correctly. After the shooting or the shoot-out I think at block C is it, two person were captured, Mokwena and another person that you don't know? MR MOTLOKWA Yes, the one who died, yes that is true. CHAIRPERSON And later that morning a third person was captured. MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You don't know his name? MR MOTLOKWA The third person who was captured, I do not know his name Sir. CHAIRPERSON Did he die? MR MOTLOKWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And then there is the group which was led by Sugar which brought back three persons. Buthelezi's son, did he die? MR MOTLOKWA Yes, that is correct, he died. CHAIRPERSON And then Tusanang who we know escaped? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON The third person, do you know his name? MR MOTLOKWA Which third person Sir? CHAIRPERSON Sugar's group brought back three persons amongst whom was Buthelezi's son, Tusanang and a third person, who was the third person, do you know him? MR MOTLOKWA I do not know his name Sir. CHAIRPERSON Did he die? MR MOTLOKWA Ngobese's child was released. I don't know whether they all died, I remember one child was released. CHAIRPERSON So the third person that came back with Sugar's group was Ngobese's son? MR MOTLOKWA It might be so if I'm not mistaken. CHAIRPERSON But you're not sure? MR MOTLOKWA I am not sure. CHAIRPERSON Then at the meeting Buthelezi senior was then captured? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And then there's the group that ran into Manyala's place which was brought back in a kombi in which there was Vips and two other persons? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Do you know the names of the other two person who were captured together Vips? MR MOTLOKWA I do not know their names. CHAIRPERSON Did they die, were they killed? MR MOTLOKWA Yes, they were killed. CHAIRPERSON To your knowledge, were any of the persons who were killed members of the Inkatha Freedom Party? MR MOTLOKWA It was rumoured that Buthelezi was a member of the IFP but I am not sure as to whether he was a full member of the IFP. CHAIRPERSON Apart from Buthelezi? MR MOTLOKWA No-one else. CHAIRPERSON Buthelezi the senior though was killed because he had been involved in the killing of Blanko? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON And to you knowledge, were any of the persons who were killed persons from the hostels? MR MOTLOKWA I do not know Sir. I told you already that they came from different places. I don't know whether among them there was anyone from the hostel but I don't foresee anyone coming from the hostel to the township because of the situation that reigned. CHAIRPERSON At the time when these persons were killed you believed that they were members of the ANC Youth League? MR MOTLOKWA I believed that they were criminals Sir. CHAIRPERSON You did not believe that they were members of the ANC Youth League? MR MOTLOKWA We did not believe that they members of the ANC Youth League according to what they were doing. CHAIRPERSON But did these persons who were killed hold themselves out as members of the ANC Youth League? MR MOTLOKWA That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON But insofar as you are concerned you were killing criminals? MR MOTLOKWA According to their actions yes, they were criminals. CHAIRPERSON Is there anything arising Mr Madasa? MR MADASA No, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Motlokwa, you may return to your seat. MR MOTLOKWA Chair, there is a request from my side, there's a request that I would like to direct to you. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR MOTLOKWA There is one of my applications that I submitted in 1996, I was given a notice that I will appear before a public hearing and I do not know what happened to that case and I told myself that when I appear before you it will be because of those two applications. I now request you as the Committee to speed up the process so that I can appear again before the Commission, that is my request. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, just before you go, when did you make that application? MR MOTLOKWA In 1996. CHAIRPERSON I gather that the Committee Member, Mr Malan has made inquiries in regard to your other application and he has the particulars. We will take the matter up with the appropriate personnel within the Amnesty Committee and you will be notified in due course as to when that application will be heard. MR MALAN Chair, if I may just for the record say, so that there is no misunderstanding, I also got information about the second application last night. I did make inquiries this morning. The matter is still being investigated and if I remember correctly it relates to an incident on the trains, is we're speaking about the same one. MR MOTLOKWA That is correct. MR MALAN And if that is so, that matter is still being investigated. It may not necessarily be brought to a hearing but you will be advised, it is under investigation. MR MOTLOKWA I thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Motlokwa. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Madasa? MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chair. I call Mr Sonti. CHAIRPERSON Zola Nxeba Michael Sonti? MR MADASA Yes, number 5. CHAIRPERSON Applicant number 5. Good afternoon Mr Sonti. ...[problems with channels] ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA Mr Sonti, is it correct that you were a member of the SDU during the time in question? MR SONTI That is correct Sir. I am a follower of ANC under the defence unit. MR MADASA When did you join the ANC? MR SONTI I joined the ANC in 1986. MR MADASA Firstly, how old are you now? MR SONTI 39 years old. MR MADASA Are you married? MR SONTI Yes, I am married. MR MADASA How far did you go at school? MR SONTI Up to standard six. MR MADASA Mr Sonti, can you put that thing down. Where is your original home? MR SONTI My original home is in Sterkspruit in Herschel. MR MADASA Are you settled in Johannesburg or are you still a resident in the Transkei? MR SONTI I'm a permanent resident here in Johannesburg now. MR MADASA When did that begin? MR SONTI I arrived in 1980. MR MADASA When you arrived, where did you settle? Which area? MR SONTI I settled in Katlehong. MR MADASA Where in Katlehong? MR SONTI At the hostel in Katlehong. MR MADASA Which hostel? MR SONTI Pwesini Hostel. MR MADASA Why did you leave that place? MR SONTI I left the hostel, first of all I will say, after I brought my wife here I had to go and scout around for a house in the location in Katlehong and leave the hostel. MR MADASA So where did you go to settle? MR SONTI At 574 Nyala section. There are so many other places that I lived at. MR MADASA When did you go to live in Moleleki? MR SONTI I went to Moleleki in '1993, the 1st of June. I was from Seloma, 506 Seloma B. MR MADASA Why did you go to Moleleki? MR SONTI Moleleki Extension 2 was developed by the ANC organisation for people who did not have homes at the time. MR MADASA When you went to Moleleki, were you already a member of the SDU? MR SONTI It is correct. MR MADASA When had you become a member of the SDU? MR SONTI It was in 1992, in Zone 5 in Seloma. MR MADASA Let's clarify this issue first, you are applying for amnesty for what? MR SONTI I applied for amnesty so that I may be forgiven that I took part in the cases that are being discussed in this hearing and I was the first accused, accused number one in the Court of Law. Now that I am here I am prepared to divulge all the information I have and put the truth on the table. MR MADASA Are you now on bail in that case? MR SONTI Yes, I'm on bail. MR MADASA Now, you are now in Moleleki, you are a member of the SDU, what was - were you an office bearer within the SDU structure? Did you hold an office? MR SONTI Yes, I was a committee member that combined self-defence units and general and the community and the executive committee that was existing in Moleleki Extension 2. MR MADASA Was that committee under the SDU or civic or what? MR SONTI It was a committee that belonged to the self-defence unit. MR MADASA What were its functions? MR SONTI Its functions were the general of the self-defence unit to discuss with the civic all the executive of the ANC and the sectional committee of Moleleki Section 2. MR MADASA So this committee was a liaising structure between various organisations which were in existence there? MR SONTI That is true. MR MADASA What were you in that committee? MR SONTI I was just an ordinary person. MR MADASA Did you have specific functions that you did? MR SONTI I was just and ordinary person and would listen to the general and on behalf of the general and discuss some other things with the civic and the community as well. MR MADASA Now, when you came to Moleleki, can you explain to the Committee if there was already an SDU structure there and if so, which areas did it patrol? CHAIRPERSON This is in regard to which area? MR MADASA Moleleki. CHAIRPERSON I'll tell you what Mr Madasa, we now the background as to the establishment of the SDU's in Moleleki, we hear that from Mr Motlokwa. You need not burden us with that background unless of course there is something that you want to highlight, in which event you can do that but you can assume that we now know the background. MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chair, let me be specific. Is it correct that Buthelezi who is on the list of deceased persons, sought to organise a different SDU structure within Moleleki? MR SONTI That is true Sir. Pardon me. MR MADASA When Buthelezi wanted to do that there were SDU's that were patrolling Moleleki section, is that correct? MR SONTI That is correct. MR MADASA And that SDU was responsible for the whole of Moleleki from block A to F? MR SONTI That is correct. MR MADASA How did it come about that Buthelezi wanted to organise another structure, tell us about that? MR SONTI First of all Sir, I will say I bear no knowledge insofar as that is concerned and as to why he wanted to form another defence unit. One thing I will say to you is, even so, the first self-defence unit that was already existing in Moleleki 2, he did not want to see it at all. He did not want it completely. MR MADASA So what did he do, how did he organise? MR SONTI He combined the community of block F wanting to form a self-defence unit of block F only and also wanted volunteers to that effect to serve in the block F. Four members amongst the other members of the two who are applying for amnesty were part of block F. They volunteered themselves in that meeting and they were withdrawn and were told that they should not volunteer themselves because their problem is apparent. The two of them are applying for amnesty. MR MADASA Sorry? CHAIRPERSON Who are they? MR SONTI It is Moses Augustine and Themba Christopher Mtshali. CHAIRPERSON So these two individuals volunteered for the SDU organised by Mr Buthelezi? MR SONTI That is true. MR MADASA How did Buthelezi do this, did they call a meeting? MR SONTI Oh yes, he called for a meeting in block F where people had to convene and he put forward his request that he wanted people to volunteer themselves to this effect. MR MADASA And these people you have just mentioned who are applicants, were they living in block F at that time? MR SONTI That's correct. MR MADASA Who attended that meeting? MR SONTI The members of the self-defence unit, four of them who were there in block F and the two that have applied for amnesty. MR MADASA What I want to know, why did they volunteer to be part of another unit when it was already in existence? CHAIRPERSON And who? Even the two who are applicants? MR MADASA Yes, the two. CHAIRPERSON Well, shouldn't you address that question to them unless he knows though? MR MADASA If you know, if you don't know Sir, you don't know. MR SONTI I think since they resided in block F they deemed it fit to volunteer themselves automatically. MR MADASA Okay, where did Buthelezi come from? MR SONTI From what I heard, although I knew him for a short period of time, he came from Tokoza in Zongezizwe and came know to Moleleki Extension 2. MR MADASA And Zongezizwe was a stronghold of Inkatha? MR SONTI First of all Zongezizwe had all deferent races and subsequently it was a stronghold of IFP. MR MADASA So when Buthelezi came to Moleleki, Zongezizwe was no longer for Zongezizwe so to speak, it was now a stronghold of Inkatha. MR SONTI I will say even other races were part of Inkatha, but I would like to say Inkatha was the one who was dominant in Zongezizwe. MR MADASA Who addressed that meeting which Buthelezi had convened? MR SONTI It was himself and other comrades from block F where Bulelwa the sister was present as well. MR MADASA Was that SDU which he was organising eventually formed? MR SONTI I think it was eventually formed Mr Chair, because if it wasn't formed we wouldn't be where we are today. MR MADASA What was it called? MR SONTI Even though it did bear any name known as SDU but from its actions - it had no name, that's all I can say to you. MR MADASA Did it have a relationship with the ANC Youth League? MR SONTI I would like to say yes to that. It had a relationship with the Youth League because some of the members who rule from the Youth League became its members. MR MADASA Did these members join Buthelezi's - did the members of the ANC Youth League join Buthelezi's group after they had divided themselves from you? MR SONTI I want to agree to that point. MR MADASA And what were they called or how did they call themselves? MR SONTI They had no name except that they called themselves ANC Youth League. MR MADASA So what you're saying is that - is this ANC Youth League you're now referring to the same as the one Motlokwa earlier on referred to after it had separated itself from the SDU? MR SONTI That is correct. MR MADASA So what you're saying is that Buthelezi was instrumental in causing the division between the ANC Youth League and SDU, is that what you say? MR SONTI That's what I want to say Sir. MR MADASA Did he have anything against the SDU that was already in existence? MR SONTI He was not clear if he was against the SDU but what surprises me is that we lived in one area and the four who resided in block F who volunteered themselves were withdrawn. I would like to say there is something that he was up to. CHAIRPERSON At the meeting that was called by Buthelezi, I think you mentioned that the Bulelwa Ziwane was also present. MR SONTI Yes, that's true. CHAIRPERSON Did she speak at that meeting? ...[End of tape b, day 2 - no follow-on sound] MR SONTI ...[no sound] CHAIRPERSON ...[no sound] Buthelezi. MR SONTI All that Bulelwa was concerned about was that she wanted to know about the existing defence unit as to why it was necessary to form the second one and wouldn't they want some help some the existing one because already in Block F we are under Zongezizwe. CHAIRPERSON And was she given the answer? MR SONTI It was said that since she was a woman she should keep her mouth shut. CHAIRPERSON The other members of the SDU who were present, did they say anything? MR SONTI Those were the ones who where withdrawn from the whole thing and it was said their problems were known. CHAIRPERSON Who are you talking about now? MR SONTI I'm talking about Moses and Themba Mtshali and the two that did not apply for amnesty. CHAIRPERSON Did they withdraw from the SDU? MR SONTI They withdrew at that particular meeting not from the existing one, the SDU. CHAIRPERSON What did the meeting resolve? MR SONTI Please repeat your question. CHAIRPERSON What did the meeting resolve? MR SONTI I would like to say to you Mr Chairman, even though it was suggested that the self-defence unit should be formed that we did not know about at all, it went on because first of all the two members who are applying for amnesty, when they brought this report to us we tried to know as the members of the existing defence unit as to whether what was happening. After we requested a meeting it was apologised and withdrawn. CHAIRPERSON Were you present at that meeting? MR SONTI I was present at the meeting. MR MADASA So you are saying, after this Buthelezi meeting another meeting was convened, is that what you say? MR SONTI That's the meeting I'm referring to. After we heard about the formation of the new defence unit we tried to find as much information as possible as to why this was being done. MR MADASA When Buthelezi made the call for the formation of a new SDU, was the ANC Youth League still part of your SDU. MR SONTI The ANC Youth League was already separated from us. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that when the decision was made to form this new SDU the ANC Youth League had already broken away from the SDU which was patrolling in Moleleki? MR SONTI That is true. MR MADASA So, was Buthelezi therefore inviting the ANC Youth League members who had separated themselves from you to form a new SDU? MR SONTI I would like to say to you Sir, I don't know whether he was inviting them or he was already done with them because more times than not, as my co-accused Motlokwa had earlier explained, there was that division. There were so many people residing in different areas just like - who were not there and some were ANC Youth League who were in block F. MR MADASA But what you have said is that at that meeting which was about a formation of a new SDU, your members were not accepted to become part of the new formation? MR SONTI Yes, that's what I said. MR MADASA Alright. Now, do you know of incidents that the ANC Youth League - I'm speaking now after it had separated ways with you, do you know of any incidents in particular that they were involved which you did you not ...[intervention] MR SONTI Yes, I do, I do know. CHAIRPERSON What name did they give to themselves? Were they also called self-defence unit? MR SONTI It was the self-defence unit because it was formed under the name of forming the SDU community. CHAIRPERSON They did not have a different name to distinguish them from the SDU which had been in existence in Moleleki? MR SONTI I don't have recollection to that effect. MR MAPOMA Through you Mr Chairperson, was it possible for the community to be aware that there were now two groups, those SDU's which were recently formed and the SDU's which were initially formed? MR SONTI With regard to your question, it was amazing, the whole thing because there was already an SDU in place and there was another one that was about to be formed so the whole thing was just surprising. And why would that be done, we all had that question. MR MAPOMA But was an ordinary person in the street able to see that there are now two forces in place? MR SONTI Yes, although I may not confirm MR MAPOMA Thank you Mr Chairperson. MR MOTATA Mr Sonti, now we know that the SDU's formed between yourselves and the ANC Youth League used to patrol, do you bear knowledge whether those that belonged to Buthelezi also patrolled? For instance, let's confine ourselves to Moleleki section or the various components which fell under Moleleki section. MR SONTI According to what was happening, although Moleleki Section 2 had six blocks or sections, although there was no-one who was nominated or elected not to protect others but from block F the patrol should have been in place but - although they were forming the second defence unit, it wasn't supposed to patrol block F only because SDU units that was in existence was already patrolling from block A right up to block F. MR MOTATA Do you bear knowledge whether they did in fact patrol any other area? Do you have such knowledge? MR SONTI Yes, I do bear knowledge because of the following reasons: After the self-defence unit and the Youth League was divided they once brought an opinion that even though we are between Zongezizwe and Kwesini hostel these two areas are predominantly Inkatha. They felt that they will occupy and most of the time patrol in Kwesini and they asked us to be in block F where - because block F was next to Zongezizwe. MR MOTATA If I may now ask you, we know that the incident we are here about occurred on the 6th and 7th of December 1993 and we have heard as well that there was bad blood between ANC Youth League, that they eventually separated, could you probably give us an indication when the two, that is the SDU's and the ANC Youth League separated, more or less? MR SONTI I will want to go back to the time when I arrived at Moleleki Extension 2, would you allow me to do that? MR MOTATA If it would be of assistance, yes. MR SONTI Thank you very much. Sir, in Moleleki Extension 2 I arrived on the 1st of June 1993, I was from Seloma. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sonti, I think what the member wants to know is, do you know the date approximately when this separation occurred? MR SONTI I may not confirm the date but more or less it could have been in September after we buried comrade Atwell Kabanjane, Mavuso Kabanjane of Ramkunope East. CHAIRPERSON Would that be September 1993? MR SONTI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Let me just make sure I understand this. There was a meeting between the old and the new SDU in terms of which it was agreed that the new SDU would confine their patrol in block F? MR SONTI Please listen attentively. This ANC Youth League was formed by Mr Buthelezi. CHAIRPERSON I understand that. I want to know about the agreement relating to the areas of patrol for the different units. MR SONTI ANC Youth League brought this suggestion and we did not quite accept that. And as I've already told you about Kwesini and Zongezizwe, they decided to patrol block A and we should patrol towards block F. CHAIRPERSON Well, they came with a proposal in terms of which they were going to patrol block A and you were going to patrol block F. MR SONTI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did you accept this proposal? MR SONTI Firstly we accepted it but after quite some time we felt, no it's not doing us any good because of the following reasons: even though block A was towards the direction from the location, there were so many incidents that were taking place in block A towards the bridge. Towards early hours of the morning you would find that some people are found there lying down injured around block A. CHAIRPERSON We intend taking the lunch adjournment now. Would this be an appropriate moment or would you want to cover certain aspects of the evidence in chief first? MR MADASA We can adjourn Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON We can adjourn. Yes, very well. We rise and reconvene at 2 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Having regard to the somewhat unbearable heat that is generated by these lights, I think you gentlemen are free to take off your coats if you so wish. ZOLA NXEBE MICHAEL SONTI (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may proceed. MR MADASA Mr Sonti, I want you to clarify this once and for all, the new SDU and the ANC Youth League did they become one after the Youth League had separated itself from you? CHAIRPERSON No, but I think his evidence amounts to saying that these were just two separate entities. Isn't that right? MR SONTI I would like to clarify again. The members of the ANC Youth League, they separated themselves from us, they went to join the self-defence unit that was being formed at the time in block F. CHAIRPERSON Yes, so the old and the new self-defence unit were to separate entities? MR SONTI That is true. MR MADASA So, after this new formation, Buthelezi's formation, is it correct that there were no two SDU formations but it was the old SDU to which you belonged and the new organisation which comprised the ANC Youth League members and the SDU's of Buthelezi? MR SONTI No, they were not combined. CHAIRPERSON Yes. And they called themselves self-defence units? MR SONTI I would say so because their activities were almost similar although they were different there and there. MR MAPOMA Through you Mr Chairperson. Would you say there was a new SDU or would you say the ANC Youth League was then the new SDU? MR SONTI As I've said before, Mr Buthelezi, as he endeavours to form a new SDU, he called for volunteers so that the self-defence unit is formed in Moleleki block F. In other words I'm trying to say people who got out were there as the ANC Youth League, still the former members of the old ones. MR MAPOMA Were there any ANC Youth League members who did not form part of the new SDU? MR SONTI Please repeat your question again. MR MAPOMA Were there any ANC Youth League members who did not form part of the new SDU? MR SONTI I will say they were there. MR MAPOMA Thank you Mr Chairperson. MR MADASA Do you know of a member of the ANC Youth League which joined Buthelezi's new defence unit? MR SONTI Yes, I have one in mind. MR MADASA Who? MR SONTI The one that I know very well who separated himself from us was Mavuso Modishwa who used to be a member. That's the one I'm quite sure about who left us for the other unit. MR MOTATA Mr Sonti, this gadget is very sensitive. We would request you as far as possible to please not fiddle with it with your hands, it's very sensitive, thank you. MR MADASA Is there someone who is present here at the hearing whom you know who was a member of the ANC Youth League and joined Buthelezi's new unit? CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa, how is he supposed to know who knows? MR MADASA Mr Chair, he knows, he says there is somebody. I want him to tell the Committee the name of that person. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR SONTI There is one. MR MADASA Who is he? MR SONTI Tusanang, Lucky Pinikele, Mtetwa. MR MADASA The members of the ANC Youth League, after they'd separated, why did they leave? Do you know? MR SONTI Mr Chair, these members of the ANC Youth League, as I arrived in Moleleki Section 2, besides Mavuso Modishwa, the rest resided in the shacks of the people who left them as a result of being assaulted. Some shacks that were still under construction, they occupied those shacks. The thing that makes me to say that is even their parents I don't know. I knew them after. MR MADASA Were they - were these members people who all came from Katlehong or did they come from other areas as well? MR SONTI I will say this Chairman, they came from different places like Tokoza and various sections. MR MADASA Now was there anything wrong about the fact that they came from different areas? MR SONTI I think there was something wrong. Firstly, Katlehong or Katorus at large was surrounded by violence. Even Moleleki Extension 2, people came to occupy some houses in Moleleki Extension 2 after violence erupted. So all that was highly unacceptable. CHAIRPERSON Who were these people who came to occupy houses in Moleleki? MR SONTI I'm referring to these youth that called themselves ANC Youth League. The youths I'm referring to is ANC Youth League. At night they would show their true colours. MR MADASA Now, is it correct that there was also a difference - I'm referring now before you separated with the Youth League, it was also a difference along the fact that the members of the Youth League were people who came from the township, were urban and some of you were originating from the rural, did that cause a division? MR SONTI I will agree with you. MR MADASA Sorry, sorry, don't explain. If you agree I'm going to ask you a question. Now if that is so, what was perceived as wrong or as undesirable from their point of view about you, those who came from the rural? What is it that they did not like about you? MR SONTI I took it that even though I joined the ANC and was fighting for freedom there were some other things that were being pursued by other people like the youth, that we did not partake of and that led to the enmity that transpired thereof. MR MADASA Mr Sonti, I want you to be specific. What was with your conduct that caused them not to like you? What are these things you are referring to, what did you do? How did you behave yourself so that they did not like you? MR SONTI There's nothing that we did as far as I am concerned, that would have made them not like us but what we noted was that they were stubborn in things that they were doing. They would not like to be stopped and they also said they cannot be stopped by people who come from rural areas. MR MADASA What were they doing? MR SONTI As my co-accused has already said, that some activities that transpired in Moleleki Extension 2 were the ones behind them. MR MADASA Do you recall any particular incidents wherein you were present that the ANC Youth League members caused trouble? MR SONTI I remember very well. Can you relate that to the Committee? MR SONTI In June 26th Dingaan Tobela, the boxer, had a fight with Tony Lopez. I remember that fight quite well, it was around 2a.m. After the fight, as we were patrolling from block A right up to block F, when we got to block F after the fight we watched TV, we were watching TV and we did not have electricity in the area. Some people who owned television used batteries because there was no current, electricity. Soon after that people started to celebrate that Dingaan Tobela won the fight. From that celebration I heard gunshots and suddenly they intensified and I was shot also. I still have the ...[indistinct] the head on that very night, I was shot at the back. The ANC Youth League did not come up front after that incident but people who came to enlist helped me were the SDU defence unit members. I regained my consciousness in hospital. And secondly, after I was discharged from the hospital on the 12th of July I was still under ...[intervention] MR MADASA Sorry, those people who fired shots, do you know who they were? MR SONTI I don't know the people who shot. MR MADASA Whom did you suspect? MR SONTI As I've already said Mr Chairman, we were one with the ANC Youth League. After it withdrew from us that conflict went on and the shots were fired in Moleleki on that day of the fight of Dingaan Tobela. In my view I thought they were celebrating because Dingaan Tobela won the fight and I thought the followers of Dingaan Tobela were celebrating but after some time I realised that he lost the fight but I was hurt, I was injured that day. I'm not quite too sure as to who shot me because I did not see him in person, I did not quite see him but the people who were supposed to have been there were the members of the ANC Youth League and the defence unit. The self-defence unit did - someone helped me. MR MADASA Oh you suspect that Youth League members shot at you, is that what you're saying, yes? CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa, he's not suggesting that he suspects that he was shot at by the ANC Youth League, he's not suggesting that. MR MADASA Sorry Mr Chair. Right, is there any other incident where Youth League members caused trouble, that you remember and you were present? MR SONTI Besides this incident, as I've already said after I was discharged from hospital, one day, the same day on the 12th of July, Lucky Pinikine Mtetwa together with Vips Motloung and Richard, I don't know his surname but he had one eye and had spectacles or wore spectacles and Maseven were seen or I saw them, they were seven, were running after seven men from block F towards the river. Amongst those men four of them were shot, three were left alone. Their names are as follows: Jackson, -just let me refer to this, I beg your pardon, Jackson Nkosi, I'm sorry, his car was taken from him and Moses Mkonza and Sepo Mbogani, those were left alone, they were forgiven in other words, was Joseph Mbogani and Henry Kunene and Nuaki number 7055 in block D. CHAIRPERSON Would you give us the names again? The persons that were shot at, would that include Jackson Nkosi? MR SONTI Jackson Nkosi, his car was also taken from him. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and? MR SONTI Sepo Mbongani. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR SONTI Moses Mkonza, have since died. CHAIRPERSON No, wait a minute. They were shot and killed then? MR SONTI Yes, they were shot and killed. The ones who were forgiven as are follows: Joseph Mbongani. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR SONTI Henry Kunene and Nuaki of 7055. CHAIRPERSON Who's this one? MR SONTI Mxega. CHAIRPERSON Of number? MR SONTI Of number 7055, block D. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR SONTI Thirdly, still in July as accused number 7, Oscar Motlokwa has explained that ...[indistinct] Majosi who was under SAP, ...[indistinct] and his cousins - his real name ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Wait a minute. Majosi was a member of the South African Communist Party, right? MR SONTI That's what I meant to say. He was active at the union at his workplace. His real name, Majosi, is Nkosinati Nxube from 7007, number 7007 and Shlalukwa Zinube and there was one who fled. Shlalukwa Zinube resided in block D just further down the street from my place. As I was still under the doctor's care, I used to limp because I was severely injured. At night they were chased and they passed by my house. Just before they approached my house there was gun shot that I heard and screaming that I heard. I got out of the house and there was also so much noise, insulting one another outside like: "Get out those weapons". And when I got out of my shack I shouted: "Comrade, comrade, what's happening"? and one responded that: "We've already arrested one who's sustained an injury on the neck and we are chasing this Inkatha member" and he says his uncle who is my opposite neighbour said the uncle has concealed some weapons in his house. And I asked as to where they found him and they answered and said they found him down the street and he was already bleeding profusely from the neck. And I asked them: "Now what is going to happen, why would you assault some other members right here"? They answered back, the said: "You don't know anything, there are weapons concealed in this uncle's house". I asked him, the very person, as to where he was found by these people and he answered back and said: "They just arrested me for no apparent reason". There was this one called Vips and Vips said: "Comrade, even though you are so injured, please get inside the house and rest". There was another one called Maseven, he was also chased. Shaluga was chased up to Majosi's house. It wasn't long and I heard again a gunshot - even though I've already explained that I was still under doctor's care at the time. And firstly when we got to this area, occupying it, each time there will be an attack we will whistle and blow some whistle and we heard the sound of a whistle. After we heard that all the comrades ran and approached the scene. I couldn't because I was limping due to the injuries that I've sustained. When the comrades arrived it was after - they arrived, when the comrades arrived, I arrived after the incident had taken place. The attackers were already gone and Majosi himself was already taken with Shlalugasi as well. The next door neighbour's bakkie was taken towards, was driven towards the bridge in block A. When the community of Moleleki Extension 2 arrived, when we heard from Majosi's mum and wife, the one who is Mkosinati Nxube, they asked when they arrived, asked about the money that was collected to buy some equipment. As co-accused number 7 has already said we used to donate some money to buy shovels. We used to call guns as shovels. Late Majosi pointed towards the wardrobe ...[end of tape 3, day 2 side A - no follow-on sound]. They took all their possessions that the wanted, like jackets, ...[intervention] MR MADASA Who are these people who took Majosi's possessions? MR SONTI I've already explained Chairman, that it was Lucky Pikinini Mtetwa, Vips Motloung, Maseven and the Richard who's surname I've already forgotten but had one eye and wore spectacles and Meelie or Miles Simelani and Thabo. MR MADASA To which organisation did they belong? MR SONTI They came out of the self-defence unit that we all belonged to and formed the ANC Youth League that was combined with the new defence unit that was formed by Mr Buthelezi. MR MOTATA Just before you proceed, you spoke of Tusanang Lucky Mtetwa, is it the same Tusanang Mr Motlokwa referred to, are those two and the same person? MR SONTI Yes, that's the one, Tusanang Rigabe. CHAIRPERSON The persons who were involved in the incident on the 12th of July were Vips, Lucky, Richard, Masavelo ...[intervention] MR SONTI And Miles or Meelie Simelani. CHAIRPERSON Alright. And who else? MR SONTI About Ntjebe, I'm not too sure his role as to what it was because in all these things he would take part. This car of Jackson Nkosi he was also in it after Nkonza died. And the caravan that they used to occupy, they never used to have a shack they had a caravan which was set alight, that they occupied. MR MADASA Whose Ntjebe? MR SONTI Ntjebe is Hamilton Ndaba Ndondolo. CHAIRPERSON And now where does Tusanang, is it Ntuseng? MR MALAN Tusanang. CHAIRPERSON Tusanang come in? MR SONTI This Tusanang Chairman, his role I'm not too sure because here in the ANC Youth League he also was there and also in the forefront and the committee member of the self-defence unit that was being formed because of the following reasons ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Wait a minute. Was he involved in these two attacks that you have described? MR SONTI No, he wasn't there. MR MADASA Were you present at the march which was led by Hani? MR SONTI Please repeat your question. There were so many marches, which one are you referring to? MR MADASA Where there was a demand for the release of prisoners. MR SONTI Yes, I was there Sir. MR MADASA Did members of the ANC Youth League do anything at that march? MR SONTI Yes, Sir. MR MADASA What did they do? MR SONTI We went as a self-defence unit of Kathoras, Katlehong, Tokoza and Vosloorus, accompanying Chris Hani going to Motabe. A train was organised for us and we boarded the train at Katlehong station via Germiston to Daveyton station. As we were going to the march, I mean taking the memorandum, the arrested ones who were arrested for political reasons were to be released. Our ANC Youth League members came back with stolen goods, things like televisions, computers, videos and things like money. When we came back comrades were shot as there was the ANC Youth League and the self-defence unit and the community in general, the members of which were the members of the ANC and the victims as a result of the Youth League. MR MADASA Did you confront the members of the - those people who had items with them? Did you confront the members of the ANC Youth League who brought items with them? MR SONTI Yes, we did ask them as I am sure that it is not the movement's policy to take but there is this word that says, as we were under oppression of the previous regime that was sabotaged, yes, there is also this insult that says you come from the rural areas and you want to be in charge of the townships. MR MADASA Now do you know Bulelwa personally? MR SONTI Yes, I knew Bulelwa Ziwane Z-I-W-A-N-E. MR MADASA To which organisation did she belong? MR SONTI Bulelwa according to my knowledge was an ANC member, ANC Women's League and she was also involved in the train sectors, also involved in the street committee in block F. MR MADASA Did you have a relationship with her as SDU's? MR SONTI Would you please repeat your question. MR MADASA Did you have a relationship with her as a SDU's? MR SONTI Yes, there was a relationship between ourselves and Bulelwa in particular, especially herself as female Xhosa speaking apart from herself being a Xhosa woman. MR MADASA Did you organisational relationship with her as SDU's? MR SONTI Yes, I would like to say that Sir, there was this relationship. MR MADASA How was the relationship between you and her? MR SONTI As I have already explained Sir, this relationship between the self-defence unit members and Bulelwa - and when we wanted to talk to the community the civic used to be our mouth piece when it comes to problems that we encountered and when we were in short of certain things like Ntelezi they used to be our mouth piece, Bulelwa in particular. When it comes to the collection of money for the shovels and the buying thereof, she was part and parcel of the community and the people in particular who collected those monies in block F. MR MADASA But Bulelwa at the same time had a relationship with Buthelezi, is that so? MR SONTI I don't understand that quite well Sir, that relationship. There may have been, there may have not been but there's one thing in one block and that is block F. MR MADASA Now, did you meet Bulelwa on the day before she died? MR SONTI Bulelwa we used together from Moleleki Extension 2 to catch a train at Natalspruit station in morning and in the evening. MR MADASA Did you meet her on the day before she died? CHAIRPERSON Did you see her on the 6th of December, I think it is, is that right? MR SONTI Yes, I did see her. MR MADASA Where? MR SONTI Bulelwa was travelling in block D, travelling from her relatives whom I did not know at that time who used to stay in block D. MR MADASA Yes, continue what happened? MR SONTI As I have already explained Sir, that Bulelwa used to be my companion as we were travelling in a taxi to the station and coming back by train. She was a daily companion. As we have asked for money at block F to buy these shovels, which money was collected by herself, days before that there was problems pertaining to the collection of the money. The money did not get ultimately to the defence unit, what we did - it transpires it was taken by Mr Mokwena if I'm not mistaken, who stays in 8963 in block F. CHAIRPERSON Are you still telling us about the meeting you had with Bulelwa on the 6th of December 1993? MR SONTI Yes, I'm coming to that. CHAIRPERSON Well, tell us about that. MR SONTI When we met Bulelwa she said: "Mkaia" as we used to call each other, she wanted to know if the money was coming in block F as we had asked for money in block F. She asked as to whether the money had been received which money we had already collected and gave to someone. She wanted to know whether we had already received the money and I indicated that we have not yet received the money, we were walking together. She then explained that this money had been collected long ago but it transpired that the SDU that was being formed in block F was keeping it. I then asked if there would be two defence units in block F and she indicated that that was also her question. It was concluded that because she was a woman she should just remain silent. And when she explained she found it strange that the money that was donated by block F was asked by the existing defence unit. It was therefore strange that the money had not reached that self-defence unit and she then went on to say I must be careful because in block F it is said I am the one who doesn't want the youth to do their things in Moleleki Extension 2. "And therefore I am warning you myself, being Bulelwa, do not - she said: "I am warning you that in these meetings that are held frequently in Moleleki Extension 2, you should not speak out because you disturb the youth of Moleleki Extension 2 and they are therefore not able to do what they want to do". MR MADASA Yes, did you then separate or did anything happen to her? CHAIRPERSON Did you eventually - you were walking together, is that right? MR SONTI She was walking with a certain person called Binkie, even though I don't know her surname. There were three of us. Yes, I was there as well. CHAIRPERSON Did you eventually go to your house? Did you eventually go to your house and she proceeded to her house? MR SONTI Yes, that is so Sir. CHAIRPERSON Was that the last time you saw her alive? MR SONTI Yes, that was the last day I saw her. MR MADASA On the day preceding the massacre, are you aware of any events that occurred which led to the massacre on the following day? CHAIRPERSON Why don't you simply ask him the question: "Do you know what led to the massacre"? Isn't that what you want to find out? Mr Sonti, we know that on the 7th of December 1993 approximately 8 persons were shot at and killed in the veld somewhere in Katlehong, you know that? MR SONTI Yes, that is true. CHAIRPERSON Do you know why those people were killed? Is that the question you want to ask? MR SONTI Yes, I know Sir. CHAIRPERSON Would you tell us? MR SONTI I think 15 minutes must have lapsed and we heard a whistle being blown and this whistle blow was an indication that something was wrong as the community of Moleleki Extension 2 knew that when such a whistle blows there was trouble. We rushed to the scene in block F, just a distance from Bulelwa's place. She was already lying on the street at which place we found Mr Mkwena, to whom I have already referred and Mr Buthelezi, about whom we have spoken and the block F community. We asked what the problem was and people started explaining that they saw three men, one of whom was wearing a white T-shirt. Those were said to be the people who started the problem. And they said to the community that now that she is dead a request was made Sepo Baloi to try and find the Red Cross to come and pick up the woman's corpse. He was accompanied by comrade Ntjebe Ndondolo to notify zone 5 as well so that zone 5 and Moleleki Extension 2 was an earlier place I think, to notify them that something had already gone wrong. There was a meeting prior to that in the previous day on the 5th of December which meeting was convened in block F. After rumours that Amaxhosa in Katorus wanted to lead, they must start with Moleleki Extension 2 to chase them out of Katorus. I became part of certain comrades in the organisation in the group to be part of that meeting. They were not talking about block F. Meetings were held on Sundays ...[intervention] MR MADASA Sorry, who called that meeting you are referring to on the 5th of December? MR SONTI I would like to say Mr Chair, as I have already explained that block F was already not part of these other blocks in the formation of its own structure. On that very Sunday on which we attended the meeting, that is when this was to be discussed. MR MADASA Do you know who had called that meeting? MR SONTI I remember the meetings chairman because the entire block F community had attended the meeting. Myself and my companion, Ntjebe Ndondolo and William and Miagetsi Ramabele and Albert Moloi of block F were members of the self-defence unit that existed at that time. The person who was chairing the meeting was George Mokwena of 8552 block E where this was this other Mokwena, there's many Mokwena's in that area, and Mr Buthelezi. And many other comrades, some of whom are here applying for amnesty, came from block F. MR MADASA What was resolved at that meeting? MR SONTI Mr Chairman, previously pamphlets were distributed indicating to a meeting to be attended at the end of the week and in that particular meeting I was not called with these other three people, myself being the fourth one but because of rumours we went to block F. When we arrived before the meeting commenced we were withdrawn by the person who was chairing the meeting, whose name I have already mentioned as George Mokwena of 8552 block E. What he said, I would like it to be interpreted in English. He was standing on a rock: "Comrades and compatriots, can we discuss our problems here at block F whilst there are some observers". He made certain people raise their hands. As they raised their hands ...[indistinct] they opposed the three that was called observers. Myself, Ramabele, Ntjebe were requested to say because we do not belong in block F we are then therefore requested to be released. And there was ...[indistinct] between this small group and the rest, those of block F. This small group is the one that said we may not. Most of the people were happy about the reason of our coming and it was indicated that we cannot discuss our problems in block F when there were people from other blocks in the meeting. The youth that was there at the time, about 500 metres away from where the meeting was being held had their own meeting where there were girls, younger girls. I was requested to leave and other people were not happy about the idea, wondering if they know what reason brought us there. One person whom I listened very carefully was Mr Buthelezi who said: "People who do not stay in block F must leave and attend their own meetings in their respective blocks". Mr Moloi stayed behind in the meeting as he was part of block F under the self-defence unit in that area of Moleleki Extension 2, 1993. In the evening of that very same day on Sunday the 5th we had ...[indistinct] members of the self-defence unit in zone 5. It had already been heard and understood that there was going to be a confrontation between people in Extension 2 and the youth. We decided on time and by the time we left Mr Moloi we requested him to make the necessary announcement notifying the necessary people that we wanted to be brought together with the ANC Youth Members. We decided on 8 o'clock, 7 o'clock at the usual meeting place in Moleleki Extension 2. If I am not mistaken it is called: "People's Park". That's where we used to meet people from A,B,C,D,E,F where problems effecting that community were discussed. CHAIRPERSON The confrontation that was expected, was that going to be between block F, residents on the one hand and blocks A,B,C,D and E on the other hand? Is that how the - whether the groups which were going to be involved in the conflict. MR SONTI Would you please repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON I gather from you that at that stage it was known that there was going to be a confrontation between the ANC Youth League and the SDU, is that how you understood the position? MR SONTI Yes, I want to say that Sir, because in the first instance the members that I had already referred to, those of the ANC Youth League ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may continue. MR MAPOMA Did that meeting materialise, the one which was called between the ANC Youth League and the SDU to discuss the anticipated trouble? MR SONTI The meeting did not materialise. It did not continue because Mr Mokwena arrived, who stays in block F in 8963 and Mr Ndlovo whose name I don't know of 8961, block F. They came up with this information sent by the ANC Youth League to come and apologise. They had an urgent meeting to attend on that very same day. The self-defence unit therefore went to wait until they were contacted by the Youth League. Zone 5 had already arrived for the meeting at The People's Park. I rushed to the place to inform members of the self-defence unit together with the Committee that was in zone 5, notifying them that the Youth is apologising. MR MAPOMA What did you make of this youth apology? Did you think it was genuine or what did you think about it? MR SONTI I think they were not genuine because they did not know what we were going to discuss. Maybe even though they may have known they may have already planned. Their apology was just a hasty thing that was happening because they had already planned for something else. CHAIRPERSON This meeting was scheduled for the 5th of December, was it? MR SONTI Yes, that is so. MR MAPOMA Yes, carry on. And then? CHAIRPERSON Let's me just remind you of what you were busy with. You were describing to us the events surrounding the death of Bulelwa. Sepo Baloi had been requested to go and seek assistance from the Red Cross for the transportation of Bulelwa's corpse. That's where you were. MR SONTI Yes, it's like that. As I have already explain, Mr Mokwena came with Mr Ndlovo, sent by the youth to come and apologise, that they have an urgent meeting that they had to attend at the time that we had agreed upon. We had to wait for their response. Before Mr Mokwena arrived there seemed to be a whistle sound in block F. We rushed to check and when we arrived there there were two girls blowing the whistle saying: "Rush, we have been called by the self-defence unit". If I am not mistaken these two girls, one of them is Absemia Mbekwesi and the other one is known as Nkosi. These are the people who were blowing the whistle. When we arrived at the scene we wanted to know what went wrong and they said this is how we call the members of the Youth League. We have an urgent meeting that we are going to hold together with the defence unit. We were surprised to see girls because we did not see girls on the previous occasions. I did see them during the day, they were the people who were holding a meeting 500 away in block F. They did not come as I have already explained. What happened was that Mr Mokwena himself arrived and Mr Ndlovo. Mr Sepo Baloi, Ndondolo went for about - they went for about 8 metres, minutes, after they had left for those minutes together with this other guy in whose car they were to travel, it was indicated that people who owned cars should help when there is trouble even if they were not patrolling themselves but if there is a problem or an emergency they should please help and assist. He agreed, he took Ndaba into his car, Ndondolo and Sepo Baloi. They left and they were gone for about 8 minutes or so and we then heard a gun fire in block A or block C to block B. Those places follow each other in that pattern. We were standing there as the self-defence unit and the community of Moleleki Extension 2 as Bulelwa's corpse was lying there. The night went on without them coming back, that is Ntjebe and Sepo Baloi. As time went on almost at dawn, still they had not come back. The comrades who were to go to work were released to go and sleep. I rushed with comrade accused number 7 who is apply for amnesty, that is Oscar Motlokwa, to go to block E and I went to block D. On getting into my blankets, it was round about 2 o'clock if I'm not mistaken or after 2. I heard another gun fire and a whistle was blown, the very same whistle that I have already spoke about as a sign indicating an emergency. As I was putting my shoes on there was a knock on the door, that was comrade accused number 7, Oscar: "Comrade I have come to inform you that the youth are burning Blanko". We rushed past the comrades who were standing guard, watching over Bulelwa's corpse. We rushed to comrade Blanko's place. I just want to explain something. Blanko's real name is Malusi Jackson Kiyana. Certain community members stayed behind at Bulelwa's corpse, some rushed to the place where the shack was burning. As we were extinguishing the fire at Mr Blanko's place or Mr Kiyana ...[intervention] MR MAPOMA Is that, whose ID is that? Whose ID is that in your hands? MR SONTI Blanko's. This ID belongs to Blanko, Kiyana, K-I-Y-A-N-A. MR MAPOMA Do you want to show it to the Committee? Can you pass it? With your permission Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you first went to the spot where you had left Bulelwa's corpse, right? MR SONTI We went there with comrade Oscar who is the one that brought the message to me that the whistle is blowing, from which direction and where we should go. CHAIRPERSON Did you go there? MR SONTI Yes, we did go there. CHAIRPERSON Were there any persons there when you arrived? MR SONTI Yes, there were other people who were standing guard there at the corpse and the other defence unit members had already gone to some other place at Blanko's house trying to extinguish the fire. CHAIRPERSON So the other members of the SDU had already left for Blanko's house? MR SONTI Yes. When we got to block F as I was coming from block D, we got there when they just left rushing to the scene as the whistle had indicated that they should. We extinguished the fire, we did manage to after a long time and after a long struggle. We found Blanko leaning against the wall of his shack outside. Outside there were AK47 bullets and 9mm ammunition that was used and some were not used and we also got this pass book, ID and the other part of his trouser and also cartridges outside. As the person who owned or who heard the tuck shop, things like tinned stuff, cigarettes and paraffin, tinned stuff were stolen already. Paraffin was used to douse the house and they set the house alight. After we managed to extinguish the fire we asked as to what was happening, why was this done. As Comrade Oscar had already explained people who managed to come and show up were Tusanang or Tusang Rigarde ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Wait a minute. Oscar said the people that he managed to identify, is that right? MR SONTI That's correct. It was Tusang Rigarde and Vips Motloung, the others did not show up or did not come. MR MAPOMA Did you identify ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON No, no, no. He did not say: "the other people did not come", what he said was that he could not identify the others, is that what you say? Did you say people you saw there were Tusang and Vips? MR SONTI What I would like - the other people, Oscar did not know them so he couldn't identify them. As I've already explained the ones that he was sure of was Tusanang and Vips and the others he did not know, in other words there were not only two people who were present there. After the fire was extinguished we passed Bulelwa's corpse and we reported to the community which was present and other members of the SD unit that surrounded the corpse that Blanko was already burnt and died. The people who were seen were comrade Oscar and Vips and Tusang or Tusanang. We got here before Ntjebe, Ntjebe was not seen yet with comrade Sepo Baloi. We therefore thought to go there on our own to see the Red Cross as it was dawn then. In the morning actually, after 3a.m. we left other comrades next to the corpse of Bulelwa. At comrade Blanko's house the door was closed and the neighbours were there sitting outside. As we were between block B and block C we just heard gunfire Mr Chairman. There was this word that was saying: "Here are these dogs, attack gentlemen or attack gents". As the comrade has already explained that he was the one firing the gunshots - who heard the gunshots, the gun. There was a shack who is not existing now for three weeks. In 1993 there was a shoe repairer at that shack repairing shoes and they got out of that shack, they ran down the road towards the farm. We chased them ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON You were passing between blocks C and D? MR SONTI: That was the route and the route was between block C and block D. CHAIRPERSON ...[No English translation] MR SONTI That is true. They were running away and they got off from the shack running away, shooting at the same time, shooting at us. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] running away, were they running away from you or coming to you shooting, what were they doing exactly? MR SONTI From what I think I'm trying to say even though the shack was too small, the one who saw us first and being the one who gave them the sign first, who said: "Here are these dogs, shoot", they ran away from us giving themselves a chance to get out of the shack. I don't know whether I'm answering you well. We tried to shout at them, saying: "Calm down, we would like to talk to you" and they said: "There is nothing we can talk to you about because you want to own our location, today is today. We tried to scream. Even though it was dark at dawn and we tried to chase them, we were running after them and we tried to get them to stop so we can talk to them sense and they refused, they kept saying: "Today is today". We could not get hold of them. What happened instead, as the grass was long, towards the last line of block C in the shacks - today it's just an open place, they were going, approaching towards those structures of the farm and we sat there, we sat down. After - it was quite, after some time we saw the third one coming out of the direction that they ran to. I would like to think that it was a carton of cigarettes or boxes of cigarettes and tinned stuff and this tinned stuff were inside the hardboard and they were in six packs each. I don't know how many cigarettes or boxes of cigarettes were in there. There was a bottle which had a piece of fabric in it and soil with petrol or mixed with petrol in it, in a nip bottle. CHAIRPERSON Were you watching all this from where you were standing? MR SONTI We saw them coming with those things from the direction which we were. CHAIRPERSON Yes. From where you were sitting you could see that they had a bottle and that inside that bottle was petrol and some sand? MR SONTI Understand this Mr Chairman, I'm saying the third one came out from the direction which they ran to ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON No, I understand that. What I'm asking you is, you were - these people ran into the tall grass that you have described, right? MR SONTI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thereafter three people emerged from where the others had disappeared into, carrying cartons of cigarettes and then there was a bottle. Now all I want to know is, from where you were standing or sitting could you see that the bottle had petrol inside and that there was sand? Could you see that from where you were standing? MR SONTI Let me do this Mr Chairman. We did not know whether there was soil inside that bottle, all that I'm describing to you and telling to you are things that we discovered when we got to Bulelwa's corpse showing us the things that they discovered from their possessions that they had when we met there. They had those things in their hands. I don't know whether I'm answering you or ...[intervention] MR MADASA ...[inaudible] these people? As they came towards you, you caught them and then you discovered these items? MR SONTI That's what I'm trying to say because in the first place, when we were sitting down they could not see us because the grass was tall. They got out of the grass since they were lying down there and we were also lying on the other side of the grass, they came to us. When they came to us they were shocked to discover that we were also there. Now they had those things that I'd already described to you, with the bottle. CHAIRPERSON So you only managed to see what they had in their possession once you had captured them, right? MR SONTI Yes. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] as they were approaching because they were far from you? MR SONTI We could see them but we could not see as to what they had in their hands, we only discovered that when they were right in front of us. CHAIRPERSON How many of you were there? It was you and Oscar? MR SONTI Those that I still remember, it's myself and Mr Motlokwa. I cannot remember the others as there were many of us, yes. CHAIRPERSON You cannot recall who they are? MR SONTI ...[No English translation] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] were with. MR SONTI Mr Chairman, as I have pointed out, there were those who were looking after Bulelwa's corpse ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON What I'm asking you is, you were chasing the persons who ran into the tall grass. Now, I want to know who was with you? You've mentioned Mr Motlokwa, can you remember who else was present in your group that chased the persons who ran into the tall grass? MR SONTI Mr Chairman, I cannot remember. I don't doubt that among the people with whom I was arrested I cannot remember who exactly remained behind with Bulelwa's corpse and who came along with me. In other words, the one that I remember very well is comrade Oscar. CHAIRPERSON Was the position then that when these people disappeared into the tall grass you remained outside waiting for them to emerge at some point? MR SONTI As I have already explained Chairman, block C, the place at which we stood was a vast area of shacks where we could build up to. From that point onwards there was an old house that had been occupied by a farmer some years ago and therefore there was this tall grass. CHAIRPERSON We know, we've heard you say that. All I'm trying to find out from you is, when they disappeared, did you wait for them outside the grass? MR MOTATA Mr Sonti, if you can stop reading and listen to the question you would be able to answer it because you are concentrating on reading rather than listening to the question. Please do that, do us a favour. CHAIRPERSON You see you chased these persons and they disappeared into the tall grass. You did not go into that area did you, you waited outside? MR SONTI Not all of us got into the grass with them Sir. We waited for about five minutes after the gunshots ceased. We were just sitting down, we could not even see them. They too could not see us. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] emerging from the grass? MR SONTI That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes, thank you. MR MOTATA Mr Sonti, since you could not remember the others but remembering comrade Motlokwa, do you have an estimation of the people who were with you, the comrades who were with you? Approximately how many of you were there giving chase to these people who were running away from you? MR SONTI Mr Chairman, if I am not mistaken I think we were about 8 because even though we had divided ourselves to say others should wait at the corpse of Bulelwa and other neighbours of ...[inaudible] were in block E, what I am saying ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] there were three of them, do you know what their names are? MR SONTI It was Tibang, he was one of them, Tibang, Mokwena. Another one I cannot be sure because Buthelezi - I cannot differentiate the two of them. I don't know which one is the son and which one is the father but one of them is indeed the one and I don't know the other one. MR MALAN ...[inaudible] was either the father or the son and you couldn't see whether it was the father or the son, or what are you saying? MR SONTI I'm saying there was the one who was called Thokozani Buthelezi, I cannot remember which one was which. I don't know which one was the son, I think it was the son that we found called Buthelezi but I cannot be sure which one was the son, which one was which. I don't know whether you get me well. CHAIRPERSON You do not know the third one? MR SONTI No. CHAIRPERSON And these persons had some cigarettes, some cartons of cigarettes and the tinned stuff, the bottle with sand and petrol. Is that how they make the petrol bomb? MR SONTI I would like to say so Sir. CHAIRPERSON You captured these persons? MR SONTI Yes, we did capture them Sir, we took them to the community in block F where there was the first corpse. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR SONTI Under way Sir, as we had captured them, the one that I know was Charles, I mean Motibang. His father was a person whom I knew very well before because as I arrived in Moleleki Extension 2 I used to know him from the previous meetings that we addressed there. I was surprised when I saw him carrying belongings of Giana, things that belonged to Giana and that bottle. As they had started accusing each other on the way, saying Tusanang is the one who landed them in trouble. By that time we had not seen Tusanang and everything that was happening in Moleleki Extension 2. As the ANC Youth League was under the ANC umbrella or the civic and these cases, the people that I had spoken about. As I have explained, in these instances of these dead people, as we had this violence, the ANC Youth League and as they were people who were in Moleleki Extension 2 in incidents that occurred in Moleleki Extension 2 they were not there when a person is dead. They would not come to cram around the dead person. That gave me - it gives me assurance that these cases that I have spoken about came as a result of them. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] to where the community had gathered in and around a spot where Bulelwa's body was found and you've told us that these persons that you had captured had began accusing one another, saying that Tusanang was responsible. Yes, proceed. MR SONTI Yes, it is so. On arrival Buthelezi, I think he is the son, as he was captured by myself holding him with the left arm he had a belt on the upper arms and when I asked who he was he said he is Buthelezi's son. I did not that that very same Buthelezi was the one in block F or somebody else or because they are so many Buthelezi's in Gauteng I did not know which Buthelezi he was talking about. He said: "Our father is to blame" and they were blaming each other on the way. And I said to them: "My boys, because we are going to the community you will explain the rest when we get there". Indeed we arrived and we produced them to the community and we then left immediately. We did not arrive at the Red Cross that we were going to and Ntjebe himself did not show up together with Sepo Baloi ...[intervention] MR MADASA ...[inaudible] to them, to the community, did you leave them with the community or did you go with them, the captured? MR SONTI We left them with the community under the supervision of our comrades belonging to the self-defence unit together with the shack community. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] Bulelwa's body was found? MR SONTI Yes, the corpse was still there. CHAIRPERSON Did you - were these persons then put in one of the shacks? MR SONTI In this shack ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] were put in a shack whilst you were there? MR SONTI Yes, I know. We went on our way to try and get hold of the Red Cross, summoned help now that we had two corpses. When we were at A Tusanang showed up from the B direction. He was wearing an overall and the sleeve on the left hand was loose and he was carrying an AK47. If I am not mistaken there were three of those that we caught. I did not know the two and because we were on our way to the Red Cross it was not easy then because here are these people, they come from block B rushing through, running away to block A carrying these guns and others were carrying these looted things from the Spaza shop, Blanko's Spaza shop. Myself being a person who was with Tusanang indicated that this is exactly what we were talking about, Tusanang wanted to beat him up. According to my knowledge Tusanang stayed in block C and to be found in that place in block A coming from block B became something very strange, very strange. What I'm trying to say here, we escorted them ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Who was with you when you came across Tusanang and the to others? MR SONTI I was with comrade William Ramabele, called Sugar. We escorted them ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] okay. You had gone to look for assistance in view of the two dead persons namely Bulelwa and Blanko. MR SONTI That's correct. Sir, we finally got to block F and when we got there there were now six of them and comrade Ramabele Miageti suggested that they join the other three and I refused with reference to Tusanang because these three that we first apprehended and the other three, I felt that because the community was still there, we wanted an explanation as to what the origin of this is and where it is headed. I refused to let Tusanang be one of those who are taken into the shack. Ramabele wanted Tusanang to be part of the people in the shack. ...[intervention] MR MADASA You say Tusanang was accusing Ramabele, did you say that? MR SONTI I am saying Tusanang, that is - and the three that we caught earlier on protected him. Ramabele wanted Tusanang to be part and join the others who were locked up in the shack and I refused. We wanted an explanation because the community was there and there was Bulelwa's corpse there as well. We wanted him to explain what was happening, what went wrong. I did not agree to hand Tusanang over to the other group in the shack so that he could explain to the community. We went on trying to get help from the Red Cross ...[intervention] MR MADASA Sorry, what did you do with Tusanang, did you leave him? MR SONTI We left him there with the community and as we went - it was now daylight, we asked for a kombi. One person whom I remember at the rank in Moleleki Extension 2 - during those days it was difficult for taxis to operate, I still remember Bennet Mnyaka Ndaba who is also applying for amnesty and Ramambele. Those I still remember very well. We started at comrade Manyala's place. Before we went for the kombi at the rank we saw Sepo Baloi coming alone without Ntjebe together with whom sent to someone for help the previous night. When we asked Sepo as to whether Bulelwa's corpse was still lying there, what was wrong? It was indicated that they were shot, Ntjebe himself and the owner of the car. And you were shot, what happened next? Each one of them fled, I don't know where Ntjebe is. Sepo is a person with him, I don't know whether it was mud or soil in his hair and we said: "There then is the corpse and we also have the second one, Blanko, in block A. We are now rushing to comrade Manyala's together with the Red Cross and with the Red Cross rather. When we arrived at Kumalo value where Manyala used to stay we saw four of these boys. They may have been members of the ANC Youth League. As we were getting out of the kombi they fled. The one that I caught, if I still remember very well, was Miles or Millie Simelane, the other one was Izak Mgati. Vips was one of the four, he is the one who fled. I cannot remember the other one, the third one. ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR SONTI Izak Magati. On arrival they did not want to listen what Manyala was saying, they just fled. Miles, as I caught him, had a packet of cigarettes, a carton of cigarettes and a smaller piston, a brown one. I don't know whether it's 2.2 or something else. CHAIRPERSON Miles, did he have a carton or a packet of cigarettes? MR SONTI He had a carton and a pistol. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR SONTI And Vips, as he was running, fleeing, jumping fences in Seloma View, he just disappeared that way. He too had a pistol he once shot, shooting as he was fleeing. Ntjebe was there as well and it transpired he left at comrade Manyala's. In their explanation during the shoot-out he fled and slept at Manyala's place. We then went on to Moleleki Extension 2, escorting Miles and Izak. On the way I shouted saying: a dog or a person that had a dog that was patrolling the previous night must come to block F. There was a certain lady that we did not know. We were at block A now on our way to Extension 2 Moleleki. This lay was following us from behind, coming from A. I didn't know her but there was certainly a lady who was following us. Everybody was moving towards block F. When we got to block F, myself, Izak and Miles. When we got there Tusanang was not there. We don't know how he left. We don't know whether he gave any information to the community, we did not get to know that. Miles and Izak joined these other five and they became eight ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] were they still - the five, were they in the shack when you arrived? MR SONTI Yes, they were. When we arrived there escorting Izak and Miles, he had wrapped up a bandage on his arm. When they got into the shack, the one whom we thought is Buthelezi's son, Buthelezi was standing behind me and the son was saying: "Dad, please explain to these people that you are the ones who were sending us". I then asked Buthelezi as to whether that was his son and he said: "Yes", and we indicated what they did and I said it's been a long time that this one has been saying: you are the ones that sent them to do things. These are the bands that we have, they are the ones who went looking for the bands for us when these happened. I have a picture in my mind, because in most instances when we were to go to a rally or a march or a funeral there used to be a particular person who would use certain medicine on us. I had such an idea, even though I didn't see them all. They were wearing these bands and I began to understand that everything else was planned thoroughly. Here is a son saying: "Dad, speak out, we are in trouble because of you". As we were listening to that a kombi arrived with Vips. There was also Nkosikona Majola, comrade Manyana, Sandile Nchingolo sometimes. MR MOTATA Could you repeat the names you have just said, Vips and - say them slowly. MR SONTI Vips arrived with these other comrades that I have just mentioned, Nkosikona Majola and Sandile Nchingolo Manyala and Boys Nxuba. Vips did not get out of the kombi and as he stayed in there he peeped through the window, calling, looking at people who were involved in this conflict. He looked for Tusanang and he called Buthelezi. He also called Buthelezi, the one I have already spoken of 8963, if I am not mistaken ...[intervention] MR MADASA ...[inaudible] mention? MR SONTI He spoke about the very same Buthelezi that we are talking about here and Mr Mokwena of 8963 in block F and Msala of block C. He also called Sepo Baloi. He was trying to get out of the kombi when the driver of the kombi drove back with him. I don't know whether he was really calling, calling the community in block A to F. Those were six blocks that you could find in block F. These people must have heard themselves what he was saying because I could not understand. Then came the Red Cross. I don't know who brought this Red Cross because the people whom we had sent did not come with it. They collected the cartridges of a 9mm pistol that was used to murder Bulelwa. They picked up those that had been used and those unused together with the corpse and we got information that also in block E there is also another one, that body of Jackson Kiane ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Sonti, let me just remind you that the question that you are answering is: why were the persons killed on the 7th, that's the question that your counsel asked you. MR SONTI Mr Chairman, I had no part in the death of these people, those who were killed. One part that I had was to find them in the places at which we found them so that they were brought together. In other words I did not murder, I don't have a corpse. I think all those who did this, it is because of the two incidents, the death of Bulelwa and Blanko even though I think that before there was this conflict there was an attempt to try and reconcile. CHAIRPERSON Did you yourself not kill anyone? MR SONTI Yes Sir, I do not have any murder on my side. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] you say that you believe that the persons were killed because of the death of Bulelwa and Blanko? MR SONTI Yes, I want to say that Sir. CHAIRPERSON Why do you say that? MR SONTI Firstly, in the first instance when we found the first one, the first three that is, they looked for Tusanang - and comrade called Tusanang and Vips and I thought that all of these people that were finding, being called by these very same or found by these very same people, this might be the truth. There was not a single one - or I saw the internal stability unit. They spoke about the very same people with whom they were together, that is why I am sure about this. CHAIRPERSON Now are you saying that the people that you had captured told you that the persons who had killed these two persons were the ones that you had captured? MR SONTI On accusing one another, as I have pointed out, their conflict or differences started on the way as we were going to block F to the community, they meant to beat each other. Tusanang was not happy why he was said to be part of this. CHAIRPERSON ...[indistinct] MR SONTI They were saying: "You are the ones, the one who was organising this and Buthelezi was also saying: "It is Dad " because in the first instance he showed us something that he had on his arm. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR SONTI The incident that occurred on the 6th of Bulelwa and Blanko ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Were they saying that Buthelezi was responsible for the death of Bulelwa and Blanko? MR SONTI What I'm saying Sir is, even though he was the one behind the self-defence unit I think they were saying: "Because of all this or because of your view about us, it's the one that led us into trouble". Vips and Tusanang were the ones who actually killed Blanko with Bulelwa. Now they were accusing themselves as we were going with them to block F. CHAIRPERSON Did they tell you who killed Bulelwa? MR SONTI They said it was Tusanang. CHAIRPERSON Did they say who else was there? MR SONTI Even though I have already said that there were many of them, some of them as far as I am concerned, I think they were just supporting at Moleleki Extension 2 ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I'm not asking you to give us your opinion as to why the others were there, I'm simply asking you, did they tell you who else had taken part in the killing of Bulelwa? The first ...[indistinct] they gave you was Tusanang. MR SONTI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Who else? MR SONTI And Vips Motloung. When I said there was Vips turning in a kombi, he was also shouting and saying: people were forming this self-defence unit. The self-defence unit was formed in block F, the one that people ...[indistinct] themselves to form and Vips was calling the people I've already made mention of, Msala and Mr Mokwena and Tusanang. CHAIRPERSON What did they say these people had done? Did they say what these people had done? MR SONTI I said, what we are about today was formed in block F. The people behind all what we are today about, are the ones that Vips was calling their names when the kombi was taking a u-turn. There was Buthelezi's son also saying from his side that: "Father, talk out, you are the one who was saying we should kill these people". As we were still listening to what the boy was saying, shouting at his father, Vips in the kombi that he never alighted from, peeped from the window as the kombi was driving off and calling the names of the people that I've already made mention of. CHAIRPERSON But, did he say that the names that he was calling were the names of individuals who had taken part in the killing of Bulelwa? MR SONTI The people he was calling are the people who were forming the new self-defence in Moleleki, block F. Did the persons that you had captured tell you who had killed Blanko? MR SONTI Yes, they told us. CHAIRPERSON Who did they say killed Blanko? MR SONTI They said it was Tusanang and even in Bulelwa's case they said it was Tusanang still. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SONTI ...[No English translation] MR MALAN Can we just have that translation? MR SONTI We went to the corpse of Bulelwa and Blanko after the kombi drove off and the hearse came and they loaded the corpse in the hearse. I'm forgetting something. At the time when we left Kumalo Valley going with Miles and Izak, at the bridge in block A we met accused number 2, Mr Malcolmess ...[indistinct] coming from work. He was at work in a night shift in Alrode Brewery. He was walking from the hospital from Moleleki Extension 2. He found us there at the bridge escorting Miles and Izak going to block F. When we arrived where the corpse of Bulelwa was there were about five, there were five casspirs and the hearse was also there and the corpse of comrade Blanko was taken and the cartridges were also picked from the ground. As far as I was concerned there was nothing that had happened. There were some others who were behind this ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Please Mr Sonti, thank you, we've heard that. Is there any other matter that you want to canvass with Mr Sonti? MR MADASA Mr Sonti, when the victims were removed from the shack to the open field, were you still there? MR SONTI I wasn't there. MR MADASA When you left the scene, what was happening? MR SONTI I was still explaining. After the corpse of Blanko and Bulelwa, there was another girl who used to work at his tuckshop by the name of Nxtesi who came from where Blanko came from or was born, Nxobo. That is the one girl I said to that she should escort me to look for Blanko's mum who came from Ramkunupe. Blanko' mother ...[intervention] MR MADASA ...[inaudible] to look for Blanko's relatives, is that so? MR SONTI Yes, that is so. MR MADASA Now, did you go back to the scene again? MR SONTI I was still explaining Sir. As the last corpse of Blanko was taken to the mortuary, the community of Moleleki Extension 2 had a desire to go and see all the people who were behind this incident, who committed this act. That was also my wish because I wanted them to see them because there wasn't anyone that we knew exactly as to whose child could be and so forth. As I had already said before, when we were coming from block A saying the person who had a dog who patrolled the previous night should come forth and identify in block F. And I even said the name when I was with this girl Nxtesi, that we should go to block F and see but no-one responded as to who's mother that could be or I'm this mother and this is my child. No-one responded in that regard. And the girl by the name of Nxtesi who was working at Blanko's tuck shop - there was another lady in block E who had taken some goods on credit to the amount or R40 from the tuck shop, and we got into a taxi with this girl to go and look or to go to Ramkunupe West ...[intervention] MR MADASA ...[inaudible] that people who were children amongst the victims should go to block F to identify and this was also your wish but none responded? ...[inaudible] was this women who owed Blanko R40, right? MR SONTI This lady was Blanko's neighbour. MR MADASA ...[inaudible] go back to the scene where the community was or to block F, did you go back? MR SONTI When I was calling, saying people should head to block F to identify, no-one responded. There was Mr Ramabele there, that I've already said he was Miagetsi, said they should not even be shown those people or given an opportunity to identify. So people never responded and it was during the day. As I've already said, no-one responded in that regard. I was still going to look or search for Blanko's family to come and see the perpetrators or the people who have done this act. MR MADASA Do you know what transpired with regard to the victims who were at the shack? You say you did not go there. MR SONTI Yes, I did not go there. MR MADASA ...[inaudible] any stage? MR SONTI Not at any stage. No, I did not see them. MR MADASA ...[inaudible] come back with Blanko's relative? Did you find Blanko's relative? MR SONTI Listen, let me explain. I said we were going with this girl, we did not find him. He was at work and it was on Tuesday, on the 7th. We did not find Nelson and this girl, because she stayed in that section, did not come back with me, I came back alone. As I was coming back I got Malcolmess Ngaam(?) who is applying for amnesty, at the taxi rank. I found him there with Nbele who was also there in the organisation at the time. When I got there I asked them as to where the majority of the SDU members were and Malcolmess Ngaam and Nbele said they went towards the veld. I rushed to where Bulelwa used to stay. I got quite a number of women standing outside and Bulelwa's brother as well was there. His face was familiar to me but I did not know at the time that he was Bulelwa's brother and Bulelwa's husband, by the name of Xinga. When I got there, even though it was my first time to see Bulelwa's brother, it was me who explained or gave them the report how we parted with Bulelwa, explained to the women who were sitting inside and outside of Bulelwa's shack. I explained how we last saw each other and what happened. The husband was not there previously ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] but is all this - does this have any relevance to this matter? MR MADASA Mr Chair, you will appreciate my problem, it hasn't but I find it difficult to guide the applicant. Mr Sonti, on page 35 of the bundle ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Which page number? MR MADASA Page 35. CHAIRPERSON 35, yes? MR MADASA In your application you state that, at paragraph 9, you ask for amnesty in respect of 9(a) 1, the offence being murder but now you've told the Committee that you are not responsible for any dead person. Now my question is, why did you think that you probably were responsible? MR MALAN Before he answers, may I just extend to that question because in 9(5) in the application he does apply for murder but he says "For two people killed with a knopkierrie" in the application form. MR SONTI I've already mentioned in the past that all these incidents that transpired in 1993, I was arrested for them. I was there when they discovered the deceased. The truth and the only truth is, when I apply for amnesty - even though I was there when they were discovering the late or the deceased, I found myself arrested and in custody for 3 months, six months. Now the reason why I'm applying for amnesty, even though I'm accused number 1 in this case, I'm coming here to explain my innocence in as far as killing is concerned. I don't know whether I've answered your question. MR MADASA ...[inaudible] because you have been charged? MR MOTATA May I just ask this before you come in Mr Madasa? A member of the Committee has made you aware that in terms of 9(a) 4 you are asking for amnesty for having killed two people with a knopkierrie, are we understanding you to say you never killed anybody? MR SONTI Yes, it is so. MR MAPOMA Through you Mr Chairperson. Mr Sonti, on page 36, that is separate of C, were you are asked to state the names of the people, you are saying Mavuso and other, to whom were you referring? MR SONTI First of all, as I have already explained, the one person that I know among the deceased is Mavuso for the following reasons: Mavuso was in the first group ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Sonti, ...[inaudible] - do we have a spare copy of the application? Mr Mapoma, do we have an extra copy of the application? MR MAPOMA No, Chairperson, we don't have an extra copy of the bundle but we do have a bundle of applications where I was trying to look for his own application. You are looking at page 34, are you not? MR SONTI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Which is a document marked 7177/94, Application for Amnesty in terms of Section 18 of the Act. Do you recall that document? MR SONTI Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Did you personally complete the form? MR SONTI Yes, that is my handwriting Sir. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] education? MR SONTI Six. CHAIRPERSON Did you pass standard six? MR SONTI Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON Go to page 39. Do you see the signature at the foot of that page? MR SONTI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Is that your signature? MR SONTI Yes. CHAIRPERSON If you go to page 35 where you are asked, at paragraph 9 sub-paragraph (a), sub-paragraph I, you were asked there to indicate the acts in regard to which you're asking amnesty and you've indicated there that you are asking amnesty in respect of murder, do you see that? MR SONTI Yes. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] any murder? MR SONTI No, I didn't. CHAIRPERSON Is there any reason why you put in murder there? MR SONTI Sir, the one reason that I can put forward is that I am the 1st accused in this case. I was arrested for murder, today I will have a chance to explain my innocence. I'm sure that my docket would also say that I have murdered. I don't know if I had applied for amnesty what else would I say after being accused of murder. I don't know whether I have given you a correct answer. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] for amnesty are persons who have committed an act which amounts to a criminal offence, who consider themselves to be guilty of a criminal offence, do you understand that? MR SONTI Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] paragraph (Roman 9) well, in paragraph 9(a) (Roman 4) at page 35 you refer to two people who were killed with a knopkierrie. You didn't hit anyone with a knopkierrie, did you? MR SONTI No, I didn't. CHAIRPERSON At page 36 you are asked to state the names of the victims and in Roman C1 you gave the name of Mavuso and other. You didn't kill Mavuso, did you? MR SONTI Yes, it is so Sir. CHAIRPERSON But you were involved in the abduction of the persons who were killed and taking them to a shack? Were you involved in that? MR SONTI Yes, it is so Sir. CHAIRPERSON Were you present when a decision to kill the deceased was taken? MR SONTI No, I was not present Sir. CHAIRPERSON When you left block F to assist with the location of the relatives of Bulelwa and Blanko, you were not aware of what was to happen to the individuals who had been captured? MR SONTI I did not know Sir. My aim was to locate Blanko's next of kin and when I got there, there was trouble. CHAIRPERSON What was to happen to the deceased, the persons that you had captured? MR SONTI They were already there Sir, when I left. CHAIRPERSON You did not know what - that they were going to be killed? MR SONTI No, I did not know Sir. And I had still thought that because Tusanang was not one of those who were put into the shack, he was the one who was going to give information to the public, to the community, about everything that was transpiring. CHAIRPERSON To the person who had been captured? MR SONTI I was thinking, they were still young but their acts were superseding their age. I thought they were going to be sjamboked or the law would take its course. CHAIRPERSON Take its course? Were they going to be handed to the police? MR SONTI The police were untrustworthy. CHAIRPERSON Well, you've just said that the law will take its course, how was the law going to take its course? MR SONTI I think - as we had reported to the Red Cross, I am thinking that maybe the Red Cross would have consulted with the people who were there at the time or the law that was in operation at the time. CHAIRPERSON Did you subsequently learn that the deceased were all taken to the veld and they were killed there? - at some point. MR SONTI Yes, I did Sir. CHAIRPERSON Did that surprise you? MR SONTI It did not surprise me Sir. That decision that had been taken had already been concluded. CHAIRPERSON But as I understand the position, you did not expect that they would be killed? You thought that because they were fairly young they were going to be sjamboked or as you put it, the law was going to take its course, right? MR SONTI Yes, I did think about that but then to think, being ...[indistinct] not knowing what was going to happen, I think is very difficult. CHAIRPERSON You learnt that an order had been issued that they be killed? MR SONTI Yes, it is so Sir. CHAIRPERSON So you were not surprised because there was an order that they should be killed? MR SONTI Yes, that's correct. CHAIRPERSON Did the order surprise you? MR SONTI Yes, I was surprised but not to that extent because in everything that I thought, there were many incidents that were carrying in Moleleki Extension 2 resulting from the behaviour of these children of these young ones. There's something that I have just left out Sir. I am not sure whether I can just say it, something that I almost forgot. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SONTI In everything that I am explaining here, that it was something that had been formed in block F. The reason why I am saying this is because there were youth that were not part of Moleleki Extension 2, they came from other sections. Their apology that they had made on the 5th of December, that they had an urgent meeting and we would have to wait for them to get back to us. I just want to say we were trying to attend to what brought us here today. I can give you an example ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] do that tomorrow. MR SONTI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Well, it's just I am told that the interpreters are now fairly tired, it's been a long day and if we go beyond this point there may be a problem of concentration. Would you please hold onto what you want to say and will you please make a note of what you want to say and would you say that tomorrow morning? Would that be okay with you? MR SONTI Yes, that would be okay Sir, because everything that is happening involves my name and I am therefore prepared to divulge whatever it is that I know, thank you. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] Have arrangements been made to ensure that the first applicant is brought here timeously tomorrow morning? MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson, the arrangement has been made. The arrangement is as follows: Since the applicant was in Sun City prison in Johannesburg, an arrangement has been made now that he be brought to Boksburg police station where he will be held in custody and will be brought to the hearing until Friday. CHAIRPERSON Very well, thank you very much. At this stage we will adjourn until tomorrow morning 9 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS