amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS BOKSBURG 3 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54636&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/bok/bok1_katleho3.htm The explanation that he has offered is that he was held up in the traffic. It seems to me that it is important that Mr Mapoma and Mr Madasa get together at some point to see whether they can agree on certain issues so as to limit the ambit of the evidence that is going to be lead. I hope they will be able to do so in due course, in view of the fact that they did not hold the required conference. MR ? CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa, have you finished your evidence? MR MADASA No, Mr Chairman, a few questions. CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon. MR MADASA I was not finished yet. CHAIRPERSON Yes, go ahead then. MR MADASA Mr Sonti, when you completed the application form for Amnesty were you assisted? Did you receive legal assistance? MR SONTI That is correct, sir. MR MADASA Who assisted you, or from where did the assistance come from? MR SONTI We were assisted at the Shell House, the ANC headquarters. MR MADASA So you are saying you were advised as to how you should complete the form? MR SONTI Yes, we were advised as to how to fill the form. MR MADASA Now, in relation to the offences which you have admitted. What was your political objective when you captured those people? MR SONTI MR MADASA Whom were you helping? CHAIRPERSON MR SONTI Sir, yes I do. CHAIRPERSON Your answer. MR SONTI What I said, there was nothing that I wanted to gain as such except that we were protecting the community during the time of violence. The community was not protected at the time. MR MADASA When you captured those people, whom were you helping? MR SONTI What I think is, we were helping the community since the community was not protected. MR MADASA How was the community going to benefit from you capturing those people? MR SONTI There was nothing for the community to have gained but I think there would have been peace from that act because there are so many things that were happening and taking place at that particular time. So peace would have been achieved in other words. MR MADASA Were you present or did you overhear an order issued for the elimination of those people? MR SONTI CHAIRPERSON Mr Sonti, would you please listen to the question and then answer the question. The question is, were you present when the order to eliminate these people was issued or did you overhear that? MR SONTI MR MADASA Yesterday when you were asked by Mr Chair whether the fact that there were eventually eliminated surprised you, you said you were surprised because of their age? MR SONTI Yes, that is true. MR MADASA By that are you saying if you were present when the order was issued you would not have carried it out, in view of their age? MR SONTI I could have followed the order because an order is an order. MR MADASA Was you opinion, with regards to the age of the victims going to stop you from carrying out the order? CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa, he has just told us that if he had been there, he would have carried out the order. MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chairman. I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA CHAIRPERSON Mr Sonti, yesterday when we adjourned, you indicated that there was a certain matter that you wanted to mention and I would ask you to make a note of that so that you can mention that matter today. Do you remember that? MR SONTI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, would you go ahead and mention that matter, if you still want to do so. MR SONTI As I have already said, and explained that Mr Buthelezi, the one who resided in Block F is the one who was organising this whole thing. The lady by the name of Bulelwa was opposing this suggestion or the view, but as far as I think, as a Xhosa and this was pointed towards the Xhosa or it was something that was being discussed by the Xhosas but it did happen as planned but prior to that there were rumours that Mr Buthelezi has been seen with Chaba before. The one that killed people in Block F who were burnt in a caravan. I had a picture in my mind that all that was happening and all what we are about today here, was cooked and from my understanding in Moleleki Extension 2 at the time the soldiers who used R1 and the Police. Let me just point out without hesitation about ANC [inaudible], they were gangsters. We went on in all these incidences that were occurring there. The general sales tax were stopped by the then Government. CHAIRPERSON Is what you are talking about now still relevant to what we were here about? MR SONTI CHAIRPERSON Come to the point. MR SONTI As I am saying that the acts of my colleagues here, as the general sales tax was ending, VAT being introduced, there was a suggestion that was not well understood as to how this VAT was going to function and it was proposed that a consumer boycott takes place by the civic of Katlehong. As this was being negotiated around the VAT, this boycott suggested that people should not buy from Germiston shops but should support the people in the township. Our companions, colleagues, they were some of the people who took this consumer boycott story further and made it succeed by discarding goods or groceries of people who had bought from Germiston. They confiscated some of these. At that time, one of the people who is asking for amnesty here is the one who opened a Spaza shop, making use of some of the things that were confiscated from people. My question was CHAIRPERSON MR SONTI I have pointed it out sir, that myself being Sonti, I was not there in the veld where these people were killed. I have no knowledge therefore what transpired there. What I know, I came across some of the people who are applying for amnesty coming back from the scene. MR MADASA MR SONTI That is correct. MR MADASA Do you relate the fact of her death with the fact that you were walking together? MR SONTI Bulelwa died after we had parted. MR MADASA Do you relate the fact that before she died, you were seen with her? Do you relate that with the fact that she was eventually killed? In other words, do you suspect that the people who killed her, did so because they saw her with you? MR SONTI I think that may have been the case sir and our relationship from 1989. MR MADASA No further questions Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA [intervention] [no English translation] MR MAPOMA of which you were a member was formed in 1992, were you at Moleleki? MR SONTI I was not yet at Moleleki. I was still [inaudible] 5, being a member of the self defence unit there. MR MAPOMA Now when the self defence unit at Moleleki was formed, the ANC was part and parcel of the community there, Motlokwa said that. Do you dispute that? MR SONTI No, sir. MR MAPOMA MR SONTI That is correct. MR MAPOMA Now, when the self defence unit was operating, the one you were a member, whom did you perceive as an enemy of the community? MR SONTI Sir, let me put it this way without hesitation. In the area where I was, there were ANC members mainly and the enemy therefore was Inkatha and amongst us there were certain people who were not in favour of the ANC, who did not support the ANC. There were gangsters among us. MR MAPOMA Do I understand correctly when I say the self defence units were formed through the blessings of the ANC, in order to protect the defenceless community? MR SONTI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Against who? MR SONTI As the one of the accused in the case that is accused number 7, ourselves being ANC members, it was suggested that we protect ourselves in areas where we resided and this was an order that came from Chris Hani, if I am not mistaken, that there was not enough help from the Police and therefore the community had to protect themselves therefore the self defence units came into being. CHAIRPERSON You were going to protect the community against who? MR SONTI The community was not protected sir at the time of violence. CHAIRPERSON [inaudible] the community was not protected. What I want to know is against whom were you were going to protect the community? MR SONTI Under the ANC sir we were protecting the community under the ANC. CHAIRPERSON Against whom? Who was attacking the community? MR SONTI I had already indicated who the enemy was. The ANC enemy was Inkatha. Together with the third force. MR MAPOMA Now the Internal Stability Unit, how did you categorise it? Did you perceive the ISU as also part of the enemy? MR SONTI Yes, we saw them as part of the enemy sir. In events or incidents that happened in [inaudible] in general, they too were involved. MR MAPOMA Now the Youth Wing of the African National Congress of which you were operating under, did you perceive it also as part of the enemy? MR SONTI First, they were not part of the enemy but as time went on it transpired that they no longer supported the self defence unit. MR MAPOMA MR SONTI Yes, that is correct. MR MAPOMA Now do you understand that the ANC Youth League was a political organisation, being a wing of the African National Congress? MR SONTI That is correct. MR MAPOMA You also understand that the ANC Youth League had a right to exist in the community as part - as a political organisation catering for the youth of the ANC? MR SONTI That is correct. MR MAPOMA Now when you had a problem with the ANC Youth League, were you having a problem with the ANC Youth League as an organisation or members of the ANC Youth League as individual members? MR SONTI The problem sir, as I have explained, problems that we experienced were problems that were caused by the ANC Youth League as a whole. MR MAPOMA Now, I take it that in Moleleki Section there was an executive of the ANC Youth League, is that not correct? MR SONTI That is correct. MR MAPOMA And during the time when some members of the ANC Youth League were participating in your SDU, they were participating as individual members of the ANC Youth League. In other words, the SDU did not swallow in the ANC Youth League? MR SONTI Sir, let me put it this way. The ANC Youth League, people that I remember there were around 10, they were under the self defence unit. MR MAPOMA MR SONTI That is correct. MR MAPOMA And you had some members of that independent political structure participating in your SDU, before they left you, is that not correct? MR SONTI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON We were told by Mr Mkloka that there are members of the ANC Youth League who remained with the SDU, is that right? MR SONTI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Is it a fact that you were not so much against the ANC Youth League but you were against what you considered to be, the criminal activities of the ANC Youth League members? MR SONTI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So, yes. MR MAPOMA Now, when you had a problem with the criminal activities of some members of the ANC Youth League, did you approach the leadership of the ANC Youth League in the community? CHAIRPERSON We heard that yesterday. Were we not told that the civic was approached at some point? MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. Did you raise your problems to the executive of the ANC Youth League in the area? In your area, Moleleki? MR SONTI Sir, that we did several times, trying to discuss these problems but there was this issue. The issue was raised that people did not want to be controlled by people from the rural areas. All efforts came to no avail. MR MAPOMA MR SONTI The meeting you are talking about, I have already indicated that I was appointed as I should withdraw from that meeting. I should not attend it. MR MAPOMA Asked by whom to withdraw from attending that meeting? MR SONTI I have explained that it was George Mokwena. He himself too did not reside in Block F. He resided in another block, Block E. MR MAPOMA MR SONTI That is correct sir. They too were not allowed to partake of that meeting. They said their problem was known. And there was nothing we could do. We left the meeting before it started. CHAIRPERSON Did you say there were 4 of you there? Four members of the SDU were present? MR SONTI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON [inaudible] must leave. MR SONTI One left and he resided - he stayed behind. He resided in Block F. We requested that we be [intervention] MR MAPOMA [inaudible] self defence unit turned out to be members of the ANC Youth League in Block F, is that not correct? MR SONTI That is correct. MR MAPOMA You said in your evidence that Mr Buthelezi was suspected of being a member of the IFP, is this so? MR SONTI That is correct. MR MAPOMA MR SONTI Sir, let me explain it this way. As I have explained that these members deserted and left us to be under Mr Buthelezi, on arrival they did exactly what did not want on our side of SDU, Mr Buthelezi, there were also rumours that he was rubbing shoulders with Inkatha. MR MAPOMA Did you believe the rumours? MR SONTI Yes, we did believe the rumours. MR MAPOMA You believe that the ANC Youth League, which was a youth wing of your organisation was working hand in hand with the IFP member, Mr Buthelezi? MR SONTI That is correct, I did believe it. MR MAPOMA You were a member of the ANC at the time, is that so? MR SONTI That is correct. MR MAPOMA And now when the ANC Youth League was working hand in hand with the IFP, then there was a political problem with that one, is that so? MR SONTI That is correct. MR MAPOMA Did you ever raise that with your organisation, the ANC, that your Youth Wing is now working with the enemy? MR SONTI Yes, we did talk about it. However this was not taken too seriously because they thought that they would not listen to people who were from the rural areas. CHAIRPERSON Who was this person not prepared to listen to the people from the rural areas? MR SONTI It was the youth that I was talking about sir. MR MAPOMA The question is Mr Sonti, the problem of the ANC Youth League working hand in hand with an IFP aligned person, Mr Buthelezi. Did you take that problem with the ANC organisation? MR SONTI That is correct, we did talk about it sir. MR MAPOMA Then what did the ANC do about it? MR SONTI There were certain members that were sent to talk to Mr Buthelezi. He rejected all. CHAIRPERSON Did Mr Buthelezi deny the fact that he was working with Inkatha? MR SONTI Correct. MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON And what became of that - did you ever receive any feedback from the ANC as to what their findings were in this regard? MR SONTI CHAIRPERSON [inaudible] talking about it, that the investigation into the conduct of Buthelezi as to whether or not he was aligned to Inkatha? MR SONTI Correct. CHAIRPERSON Did the ANC ever come back to you to indicate what their findings were on this matter? MR SONTI CHAIRPERSON [inaudible] to the central structure of the SDU? MR SONTI Correct. CHAIRPERSON MR SONTI They are connected. CHAIRPERSON As we understand your evidence, the SDU had a problem with Buthelezi who was perceived as working with Inkatha, is that right? MR SONTI Correct sir. CHAIRPERSON And there was a difficulty again because the ANC Youth League worked with Buthelezi who was perceived as being aligned to Inkatha? MR SONTI Correct sir. CHAIRPERSON I think the question was, did you take the matter up with the ANC, outside of the SDU structure? MR SONTI That is correct sir. CHAIRPERSON Who did you take the matter up with? MR SONTI As I have already said, the ANC central structure of the SDU. CHAIRPERSON The central structure was the structure of the SDU, is that right? MR SONTI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON What we want to know is, outside of SDU structures, Shell House, for example, did you take the matter up with Shell House? MR SONTI Thank you sir. We took this matter up with McBride who was present at the time. CHAIRPERSON What did he say? MR SONTI MR MAPOMA Now is it not correct that Mr Robert McBride was a member of the peace desk of the ANC, to look into the problems of Moleleki? MR SONTI Certainly sir. He was a member of the peace desk. MR MAPOMA And he investigated the conflict in Moleleki after the incident of the killing of the 9 people who were killed, is that so? MR SONTI That is correct sir. MR MAPOMA The killing incident that Mr Robert McBride came into Cape Town in the Moleleki problems? MR SONTI Correct sir. MR MAPOMA And the problems that you had with Mr Buthelezi were problems before the incident [inaudible]? Do you understand that one? MR SONTI Correct sir. MR MAPOMA So do you still maintain that the matter was taken with Mr Robert McBride even before the incident? MR SONTI Sir, as we did talk to Mr McBride about Buthelezi, secondly after all this happened as a member of the peace desk, we did talk to him. MR MAPOMA You talked to him [inaudible] MR SONTI I, personally sir. On the 9th I was injured, the 9th of December. CHAIRPERSON The question is, Mr Buthelezi had died when the matter was taken up by Mr McBride. What do you say to that [inaudible]? MR SONTI I agree sir that we did talk to Mr McBride after I was injured. MR MOTATA Mr Sonti, your attention was drawn to the fact that when you engaged yourselves in discussions with Mr McBride about Mr Buthelezi, it was after the incident that is after the massacre of the 9 people and Mr Buthelezi was one of the 9 which was massacred, do you agree to that? MR SONTI Yes sir, I agree with that. The mistake that I made was to say that I met with Mr McBride. I did not personally talk to Mr McBride, I was in the hospital, injured. MR MAPOMA MR SONTI No sir, I did not. MR MAPOMA Within your structure, the SDU, in other words, the SDU under which you were operating did not raise the problems of the ANC Youth League with the ANC structure outside the SDU, is that correct? MR SONTI Please repeat your question sir. MR MAPOMA I am saying, not necessarily you as an individual but your SDU structure did not raise the problem of the ANC Youth League with the ANC organisation outside the SDU? MR SONTI I understand sir. I cannot be certain if I had been there at the time I would have some knowledge. Unfortunately I was already injured at the time. MR MAPOMA Mr Motlopo said during the 1993 December, it was a stage where the IFP were in the hostels and in the townships, the IFP was not there? What do you say on that, about Mr Buthelezi? Being aligned with the IFP? MR SONTI MR MAPOMA During 1993, December, the evidence that has been lead, given by Mr Motlopo, is that at that stage, the IFP were staying in the hostels and in the townships, including Moleleki, it was predominantly ANC who was staying there, do you agree with that? MR SONTI I do agree about that matter even though the Inkatha was hiding at Moleleki Extension 2 because that area was predominantly an ANC area. MR MOTATA [inaudible] say Mr Sonti that despite the question put to you, Inkatha did not completely get out of Moleleki, they were still within the township, am I hearing you to say that? MR SONTI The Inkatha was there sir during this time. It was hiding behind the ANC. MR MAPOMA So are you saying there were Inkatha members who were operating under the banner of the ANC? MR SONTI MR MAPOMA MR MADASA Sorry Mr Chair. Mr Chair I oppose this question. My learned friend is quoting an extract from a newspaper purportedly information from Mr McBride and that is heresy Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON What do you say to that? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, this is [no interpretation] and I can get his perspective of what that report was saying. CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa? MR MADASA CHAIRPERSON MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Did you understand that? MR MADASA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Do you still persist in your objection? MR MADASA No, I leave it. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. MR MAPOMA MR MOTATA MR MAPOMA Yes. In the City Press. CHAIRPERSON Is that included in the bundle of documents that we have? MR MAPOMA No Chairperson it is not in the bundle of documents but it appears in the Police docket. CHAIRPERSON Well refer us to the page. MR MAPOMA Chairperson, unfortunately the Police docket itself is not numbered but I do have a page appearing in the Police docket. CHAIRPERSON Would this be the document that is dated December 12 1993? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON A report by a certain Moses Mamila? MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR MAPOMA The second paragraph from the bottom Chairperson, which reads, "The clash was reported to Mr Robert McBride of the ANC peace desk who confirmed to City Press that a group of armed people were fighting ANC youth and civic leaders." It goes on to say, "But he denied that they could be defined as members of the SDU." CHAIRPERSON Now who could not be defined as members of the SDU? MR MAPOMA I take it that it is the group which he refers to. The group of armed people. CHAIRPERSON Where does that appear? MR MAPOMA Can I get your question Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Okay well put the question. MR MAPOMA Mr Sonti, there is a report in the City Press. CHAIRPERSON MR SONTI I dispute that sir. MR MAPOMA What is the accurate position? CHAIRPERSON [inaudible] is as described by the witness, namely that they were members of the SDU who - they were members of the SDU. Is that right? MR SONTI Correct sir. MR MAPOMA Thanks Chairperson. Now Mr Sonti I just want to have your comment. The ANC Youth League members who were there in Moleleki, during that time, some of whom were captured and released are going to deny that Mr Buthelezi was a member of the IFP. CHAIRPERSON Give us the names of those persons please. MR SONTI Please repeat your question sir. MR MAPOMA Jabulani Nomalo and Tusanang. Unfortunately [inaudible] but Tusanang featured prominently in his evidence. They are going to deny that Mr Buthelezi was a member of the IFP or a supporter of the IFP. MR SONTI MR MAPOMA Now, you dispute that Jabulani Nomalo is whom you captured? MR SONTI MR MAPOMA Do you dispute that Jabulani Nomalo was a resident in Moleleki section at that time? And was taken from his home in Moleleki section? MR SONTI I dispute that because he is from Seluma. His home is in Seluma. CHAIRPERSON [inaudible] going to tell us that he was taken from his home in Moleleki section and then to the veld? MR SONTI [no English interpretation] MR MAPOMA MR SONTI Correct. MR MAPOMA Now when you were talking with Bulelwa, was Bulelwa at that time, in good working relations with your SDU? MR SONTI Correct sir. MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON What is the question? What are you putting to the witness? MR MAPOMA MR SONTI I dispute that sir. CHAIRPERSON But to your knowledge, did Bulelwa, at any stage voice her disapproval of the manner in which the SDU operated? MR SONTI That is not correct sir. CHAIRPERSON The members of the ANC Youth League at some stage patrolled under the auspices of the SDU? MR SONTI CHAIRPERSON We were told that at some point, the members of the ANC Youth League operated as SDU and patrolled the township? MR SONTI That is correct sir. CHAIRPERSON Is that whilst she may have had complaints often concerning the manner in which the ANC Youth League members were operating as SDU were conducting themselves? MR SONTI That is correct sir. MR CHAIRPERSON Did she at any stage voice those concerns? MR SONTI I have already explained this sir, that as Bulelwa was in the street committee, Block F she came with the report that a new self defence unit was being formed. CHAIRPERSON Did you say that - and how was this news received by the members of the SDU? MR SONTI It was not well received sir. CHAIRPERSON What did the members of the SDU say to Bulelwa about this? MR SONTI They did not talk to Bulelwa. She was talking to me at that time. My colleagues heard this report from me. CHAIRPERSON [inaudible] your - the other members of the SDU that it is Bulelwa who had brought the news of the formation of the new SDU? MR SONTI Correct sir. MR CHAIRPERSON How did your members of the SDU react to this news? MR SONTI As I have already explained sir, our colleagues of the ANC Youth League, we already knew about their. CHAIRPERSON [inaudible] first brought the news of the formation of the SDU to you? INTERPRETER Could the speaker wait for the interpretation. CHAIRPERSON Did you convey this news to your - to the other members of the SDU? MR SONTI Yes sir. I did. CHAIRPERSON How did your members of the SDU react to this news? MR SONTI According to my perception sir, this news was not well received. CHAIRPERSON How did you bring this to the attention of the other members of the SDU? Was this at a meeting or to them individually? MR SONTI We had a meeting sir. CHAIRPERSON [inaudible] MR SONTI Correct. CHAIRPERSON Was Bulelwa present at that meeting? MR SONTI She was not present. CHAIRPERSON Was there any reason why she was not at that meeting? MR SONTI No, no particular reason. CHAIRPERSON Were any feelings or concerns expressed about Bulelwa at that meeting? For having brought the news about the formation of the SDU - of the new SDU? MR SONTI Sir, I think that they were totally against this because Bulelwa was seen talking to me. They hated this. CHAIRPERSON Who hated who? MR SONTI As I have already said sir. CHAIRPERSON MR SONTI The youth members of the new self defence unit. CHAIRPERSON Now what I want to know is, were any feelings or concerns expressed at that meeting by members of the SDU against Bulelwa? MR SONTI They had no problem with Bulelwa sir. MR MALAN May I just ask a follow up question. Bulelwa was present at the Block F meeting where the decision was taken to form a new SDU, is that correct? She was a resident too, of Block F? MR SONTI That is correct sir. MR MALAN Was nothing said about her participating in that meeting, agreeing a new SDU? MR SONTI No sir, she did not agree with that. MR MALAN On what basis do you base this information, that she did not agree with it? MR SONTI They told her that as a lady she should keep quiet. Being called to order so to speak. MR MALAN Are you saying she did not speak? MR SONTI After she did not agree with the rest of the people in the meeting, she was told to keep quiet. MR MALAN Could you just lastly tell me, who told you this? MR SONTI Bulelwa told me. MR MAPOMA MR SONTI Correct. MR MAPOMA MR SONTI Correct sir. MR MAPOMA Now how do you reconcile that with an objective to bring peace? That assertion of calling some children belonging to some members of the community, calling them dogs, yet your objective is to achieve peace. How do you explain that one? MR SONTI That particular night of the 6th, when we gathered or when there was conflict I asked for forgiveness. I said that we should all talk. This word, dog, were from our colleagues saying that here come these dogs, let us shoot, we asked for forgiveness, we lifted our hands, we tried to talk to them. I asked for forgiveness, forgiveness which I did not receive. MR MAPOMA [inaudible] past the stage of asking for forgiveness from them? MR SONTI I did want their forgiveness sir. For example, I did want forgiveness as I said for example Tusanang was there, his name was mentioned. I called everybody so that they could hear what Tusanang was all about. MR MAPOMA MR SONTI That is correct sir. MR MAPOMA And had you heard the order to kill, you would kill because it would be an order? You said so. MR SONTI That is correct sir. MR MAPOMA [inaudible] did not expect that they would be killed because they were young, those people, for them to be killed. You understood that? MR SONTI Yes, sir. MR MAPOMA Now, in your understanding, this order to kill, would it give peace to the community? Would it bring peace to the community? MR SONTI As I have already said sir, yes, the members of the Youth League were quite young. However, the incidents that they were involved in before the 7th, what they did and partook in were beyond their years. MR MAPOMA MR SONTI MR MAPOMA But when you said, you did not think they would be killed because they were still young, you were quite aware already of the actions that they were doing still. I mean how do you explain that one? MR SONTI Sir, the community of Moleleki Extension 2 had an idea of the acts that they were involved in and everything that happened at Moleleki it happened because of the same people over and over again. I thought that - or I had thought that they would learn a lesson. CHAIRPERSON The deeds that you are referring to now are - what are those? You say the community was aware of their deeds. MR SONTI It is the deeds that I have already mentioned by people like Majosi Mbogane, Hlalugwasi, these are deeds prior to the incident from July. CHAIRPERSON [inaudible] the killings of these persons, are you referring to their criminal activities? MR SONTI I am mentioning the people that they killed. CHAIRPERSON [inaudible] are the killings of persons in townships? MR SONTI That is correct sir. MR MAPOMA Mr Sonti, the members of the ANC Youth League who are going to testify here are going to deny that they were gangsters as you have described them. Do you still insist on that? MR SONTI I refute that sir. MR MAPOMA Thank you. No further questions Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Madasa? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA Yes, thank you Mr Chair. Mr Sonti, were the actions of the ANC Youth League in line with the policies of the ANC as an organisation? MR SONTI No sir. MR MADASA [inaudible] SDU you were what could be referred to as a foot soldier, in other words you were not involved in the structure hierarchy of the SDU, you were a foot soldier? MR SONTI Correct sir. MR MADASA Therefore you were not involved in communicating problems between the community and the ANC, that is Shell House? MR SONTI Correct sir. MR MADASA You said at the Buthelezi meeting which was about the new SDU one of your members remained behind because he lived in Block F. Who was that member, what is his name? MR SONTI Albert Mloye MR MADASA Is he one of the Applicants? MR SONTI No sir, he has not applied for amnesty. MR MADASA Do you know how the SDU central committee was connected with the ANC Shell House? MR SONTI MR MADASA You never attended meetings between the ANC, Shell House and the central committee of the SDU, is that correct? MR SONTI No sir because I used to work at the time. MR MADASA When Bulelwa told you about the fact that a new SDU was being formed, was that before Buthelezi called that meeting? MR SONTI Which meeting sir? MR MADASA The meeting called in order to form the new SDU. MR SONTI I have already explained sir that Bulelwa went to the meeting at Block F as she was a resident there. She heard about all this there. About the new self defence unit that was being formed. MR MADASA [inaudible] which you talking about, is it the same meeting which Buthelezi called to form a new SDU? MR SONTI That is correct sir. MR MADASA MR SONTI As I have already said sir, some of the people who have applied for amnesty who were present here from Block F came with this report. There was a meeting, we were talking about this matter or discussing it. MR MADASA MR SONTI Correct sir. The day that I was chased out of Block F sir. MR MADASA [inaudible] chased out [inaudible] about discussing the new SDU? MR SONTI That is correct sir. Can I just explain something quickly. As I was told to leave Block F as 4 comrades, the one Mloi was left behind. We asked Mr Mloi to announce for us that we would like to meet with the ANC Youth League. The ANC Youth League also had their own meeting not far off from where we were. This is the meeting that I was talking about with the lady. MR MADASA In response to a question by my learned friend here, you said there was no peace in the community because there was a conflict between you, SDU and the ANC Youth League, remember that? MR SONTI That is correct sir. MR MADASA Was the conflict between you and the ANC Youth League the only cause of trouble in the community? MR SONTI There was peace in the community sir. There was just one problem that we did not get along with the 1993 Youth League. MR MADASA Did the ANC Youth League cause trouble in the community besides fighting with you? MR SONTI Yes sir. MR MADASA No further questions Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni do you have any questions to put to this witness? MR SIBANYONI MR SONTI That is correct sir. MR SIBANYONI Now Mr Sonti when completing this Application were you intending to apply for amnesty for the so-called Katlehong Massacre, in other words, the killing of the nine people in the veld? MR SONTI Yes sir. MR SIBANYONI MR SONTI Sir, it is because all the people that I mentioned, the nine people, it is the people that I knew only afterwards who they were. I did not know who they were. MR SIBANYONI But you knew that there were nine people and not two people, is that correct? MR SONTI Correct sir. MR SIBANYONI [inaudible] Mr Sonti, on Page 39 of this document, you are saying - you are referring to Case Number CR 903/95 and when the questions asked on which charge you say, same murder who were found not guilty. Were you charged for this particular incident and found not guilty? MR SONTI Sir I only go up to standard 6 as far as my education is concerned. I have - I was imprisoned concerning this matter. I went to Alberton. The trial or the case was at Alberton and I was charged on this matter. The 1993 matter I was arrested on the 23rd September 1995, released in 1996, 26th January. I then filled up this form on 10th May 1997. In other words my lack of education perhaps or because of my lack of education I probably did not answer the questions correctly in the form. MR SIBANYONI On Page 37 of your Application you are saying, when you are asked about the political objective, your answer there says, the community of Katlehong were under the attack from IFP hostel inmates. Further down you are saying, I responded to the call of our political leadership. Now my first question is, you are only referring to the attack from IFP hostel inmates? MR SONTI Correct. MR SIBANYONI MR SONTI As I had already said sir, I am not well educated. I think the closing date for the Applications, it was in May, there was little time and this is quite a big document. I did not give myself enough time or I did not have enough time to read through it again to do it thoroughly because I wanted to hand my Application in. MR SIBANYONI My second question in this respect will be, where you are saying, "I responded to the call of our political organisation, our political leadership, the ANC". What call was that? MR SONTI To respond to the call of the leaders. I was trying to say that all the decisions that are made in ANC meetings we would obey, even though we did not get enough time or did not get clarity on the decisions made or the code of conduct what we are supposed to do as the members of the ANC. As members of the self defence unit, we did go to school but stopped at very low standards, like myself, standard 6. MR SIBANYONI Do you agree Mr Sonti that there was no call from the ANC to kill these members of the ANC Youth League? MR SONTI That is correct sir. There was no call. MR SIBANYONI When you were saying people should come to identify dogs with your patrolling the previous day, to whom were you referring as dogs? MR SONTI Sir, I am divulging all this as I have come to tell the truth. The night of the conflict Mr Chairperson it is a group that we came across. MR SIBANYONI Mr Sonti, let me interrupt you, the group you met referred to you as dogs but when you use those words, to whom were you referring as dogs? MR SONTI I was referring to the people that were found because these were the people that we were in conflict with. I was referring to the people that we did find. MR SIBANYONI MR SONTI Correct sir. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions. MR MALAN MR SONTI Yes sir, I do remember. MR MALAN Mr Sonti, on that occasion, that meeting was attended eventually by one of your comrades Moloi who was a resident in F, is that correct? MR SONTI Correct sir. MR MALAN Did Moloi report back to you after that meeting? MR SONTI Mr Moloi did not get back to me. He knew what was going to happen sir. He just disappeared from Extension 2 Moleleki. MR MALAN Did you never see him again? MR SONTI He never stayed at Extension 2 Moleleki again. He went home to Qua Qwa. MR MALAN MR SONTI I think so sir because he did not bring a report back. MR MALAN MR SONTI Correct sir. MR MALAN You are aware that the document that both you and Mr Motlokwa refer to, "For the sake of our lives," says that a community can replace individuals or an entire SDU, you are aware of that? MR SONTI Yes that is possible sir. MR MALAN MR SONTI Correct sir. MR MALAN Did you call another meeting again to discuss the formation of yet another SDU? MR SONTI I did not call a meeting sir to form another SDU. There was only one SDU. We wanted to be part of the new one so that we could discuss matters together. MR MALAN But eventually you had most of the members of that SDU, the youth members in any event, you had them killed? MR SONTI Correct sir. As I have already said they were from our group. I did not take part in killing anybody. MR MALAN Let me just ask you again about the role of Bulelwa and you would have heard that the question was put to Mr Motlokwa about the rumour that did the rounds, that he killed Bulelwa? MR SONTI I heard that sir. MR MALAN Do you have a comment on that rumour? MR SONTI No, no comment sir. MR MALAN MR SONTI Correct. MR MALAN MR SONTI Yes sir. I was chased out of the meeting. MR MALAN Then when Bulelwa wanted to speak and I assume this is after - when the meeting started, she was made to shut up? MR SONTI Please listen carefully sir. Bulelwa did go to the meeting. She heard what the people were about, disputed everything, this is when she was told to keep quiet because she was a woman. MR MALAN But at that stage you had already left? MR SONTI That is her report. We had already left. MR MALAN In other words you are saying Bulelwa told you that she was made to shut up? MR SONTI Correct. MR MALAN Do you have from no other source any information about this because the only other possible source was Moloi and he never returned? MR SONTI I have already said sir that the people that were attending the meeting or two of the people who attended the meeting are here requesting amnesty. MR MALAN Who are those people? MR SONTI Moses August, Themba Mtshali. MR MALAN Did they attend your - were they members of the SDU? MR SONTI Yes they were members of the SDU sir. MR MALAN Now when you met after that meeting, as SDU, where Bulelwa - where you reported what Bulelwa told you, were they present? MR SONTI As I have already said sir, I worked with Bulelwa. We had meetings on Sundays at Extension 2 Moleleki. MR MALAN MR SONTI They were present sir. MR MALAN Did they report anything about the meeting? MR SONTI Yes sir. MR MALAN Did they say anything about Bulelwa? MR SONTI Yes sir. MR MALAN What did they say Mr Sonti? MR SONTI As I have already said sir, they said that they want volunteers from Block F. They themselves volunteered. They were then told that they cannot take part. This is when Bulelwa disputed everything. She was called to order as a woman. They gave me such a report. MR MALAN At last question Mr Sonti. Was there no one in your SDU that had any doubts about the role that Bulelwa played in that meeting? MR SONTI No sir. MR MALAN MR SONTI With all her heart sir. She also collected money for the self defence unit. MR MALAN MR SONTI Yes sir. MR MALAN Could it be that Tusanang nor Mokwena were killed? MR SONTI Which people sir? MR MALAN MR SONTI MR MALAN MR SONTI That is correct sir. MR MALAN Why was Tusanang not caught and killed? MR SONTI As I have already said, I ask that as - he was with his colleagues. I wanted his colleagues to know that Tusanang - I have already explained that Tusanang - as we had captured the three of them, Ramabela, Mr Ramabela said that we should capture them. I did not agree that he should be part of that - or he should be captured. I asked him to stand outside to explain what happened. This is when he ran away because he was not inside as the rest of the men that were captured. MR MALAN But he was the first suspect mentioned by all. Why would you not agree that he also be captured? MR SONTI I have already said sir, before we do anything or before we did anything we had wanted Mr Tusanang to explain what had happened. This is when he got a chance to run away. MR MALAN I have no further question then, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata? MR MOTATA MR SONTI That is so. MR MOTATA And when you captured these people, did you assault them prior to taking them to the community where they had gathered? MR SONTI No they were not assaulted sir. We took them as they were. MR MOTATA Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR SONTI Correct sir. CHAIRPERSON Was everyone happy initially with this arrangement? MR SONTI The community did not agree with this sir. I have reasons to say that. CHAIRPERSON Did the new SDU in fact patrol Blocks A to D? MR SONTI Yes sir it did that. That is when the conflict arose. CHAIRPERSON Did the new SDU patrol Blocks A to D? Did the old SDU patrol A to D as well or did they confine themselves to E and F? MR SONTI What would happen there, as Mr Motlokwa described or explained that if somebody would say, one, that person is from Moleleki, however, is the person is hesitant until somebody withdraws their weapon or he withdraws the weapon and shoots, the new self defence unit - or a lot of people were injured in the new self defence unit in Block A for those reasons. The cars that belonged to the taxi men were taken from there by the same youth. As people from Block F were patrolling that side - Block F side where there was an Inkatha stronghold, there was not a lot of people there or cars. Even bakers that would go to Extension 2 Moleleki were - could the speaker please repeat the last sentence? Bakers cars would be taken, they would be burnt. CHAIRPERSON [inaudible] MR SONTI Yes sir. CHAIRPERSON Was it because of the continuation of the crime in Block A, B, C and D that the old SDU wanted to have the situation reviewed and allow them to patrol A, B, C, D and E as well? A, B, C, D, and E as well? MR SONTI Yes sir. As I have already said, the new SDU gained something at the time. For example, at the bakers, were not of black people, they belonged to white people. As Mr Motlokwa had already said, they were the targets. CHAIRPERSON To your knowledge, were any of the persons who were killed on the 7th December members of the IFP? MR SONTI Please repeat your question sir? CHAIRPERSON To your knowledge, were any of the individuals killed on the 7th of December members of the IFP? MR SONTI CHAIRPERSON And who else? MR SONTI I am quite certain that the rest were members of the third force. CHAIRPERSON They were not members of the ANC Youth League? MR SONTI They were just hiding behind that banner. CHAIRPERSON Now, to your knowledge, were these individuals killed because, in the case of Buthelezi and his son, they were members of the IFP? MR SONTI Yes sir I agree with that according to my knowledge. Because he is the one who went about all the havoc in 1993. CHAIRPERSON Was he killed because of his membership in the IFP? MR SONTI I think so sir. CHAIRPERSON The others, were they killed because they were third force members? MR SONTI I think so sir. CHAIRPERSON Why do you say that? MR SONTI We stayed in the same place sir, first of all. There was only one self defence unit from Block A to Block F. Mr Buthelezi was able to form a new self defence unit. If there were mistakes made by the existing self defence unit, they should have been called into some sort of meeting and he should have pointed out their mistakes. All he did was form a new self defence unit that nobody knew about. Nobody knew about - all five blocks did not know about this new self defence unit. If all the blocks knew about this the existing self defence unit would have withdrawn and I have already said that he was seen walking around or working with the IFP even the weapons that were being used by the new self defence unit. The weapons were the same as those used by the Internal Stability Unit. CHAIRPERSON Would you agree that the old SDU unit accepted the existence of the new SD unit, is that right? MR SONTI Yes sir, these were the reasons. As I have already explained what was most important or what was significant was about the people who came from the rural areas and those that were originally from the townships and forced this. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Is there anything arising Mr Madasa? MR MADASA Yes, just one Mr Chair. Remember you said when you completed the form you were assisted by somebody. Were you advised how to complete the form or what you say in the form? MR SONTI Yes. MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson thank you. Now Mr Sonti, to your knowledge was Mrs Buthelezi also a member of the IFP? MR SONTI Which Mrs Buthelezi? MR MAPOMA The wife of Thokozana Buthelezi. MR SONTI MR MAPOMA How the other nine were killed whereas you were not there? MR SONTI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Sonti you may return to your seat. MR SONTI I would like to say something that I almost forgot. After these incidents or before these incidents on the 12th December 1993 in all this conflict with the new self defence unit there was a certain lady who was named Mrs Khumalo who was burnt in a shack at Block D House No. 7113 after the fire died down or was put off the shack had been destroyed already as Mrs Khumalo used to sell alcohol. We followed this up with the old self defence unit. We found beer bottles that were broken. We went to another shack where the gangster members stayed who were under the ANC Youth League Banner, two shacks, Block D and Block A. What is shocking sir is that all that I have said, they never came to find out and to help that as people who were patrolling, there is someone who died or was killed and they never would come and tell us how this happened. They were all from different townships, Davyton, Thembisa, Thokosa and Vosloorus. They would just disappear most of the time. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sonti yesterday you told us about the fact that they do not attend the funerals when a member has died, we know that. Is there anything else that is new that you want to tell us? MR SONTI CHAIRPERSON MR SONTI They attacked me as I got out of the taxi. They dragged me, surrounding the taxi, I did not have strength to fight for myself. I ran until I gave in. They were shouting "Vimbani Inkatha". They were shooting in the air and I was assisted and helped by the Stability Unit, by the name of Mr K P I Meintjies who resided in that area who belonged to the Stability Unit who enlisted help to me but one thing that I did not receive or discover or realise after was my pair of shoes and my jersey that I wore and the clothes that I wore that particular day are the ones that I am displaying to you, right now. MR MADASA Are you done? MR SONTI Yes I am done. MR MADASA Nothing further Mr Chair. MR MAPOMA Nothing further sir. MR MAPOMA Thank you sir. You may go back to your seat. CHAIRPERSON We will take a tea adjournment at this stage and we will re-convene at quarter past 12. Hopefully this will give Mr Mapoma and Mr Madasa an opportunity to hold the conference and see the extent to which they can shorten the proceedings. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Madasa? MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chair. Before we adjourned, you allowed us the opportunity to discuss the case with my learned friend with a view to shorten the proceedings. We have not had sufficient time as yet to complete that process. So we are asking for an extension of time. Thank you Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA I confirm what Mr Madasa has said Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. Because it is necessary to make sure that we dispense with unnecessary evidence in this matter, I think Counsel ought to be allowed time to discuss - hold a conference in order to discuss the issues that are involved in this matter and then we can proceed as soon as they are finished with that conference. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Madasa? MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Chair we are indebted to the Committee, I and my learned friend for the opportunity to hold a pre-hearing conference and as a result of that conference I would like to state as follows. Applicants number 15, one Malcolmess Singamo, on Page 1 of the bundle. On his behalf, I move an Application that his Application be withdrawn. The reason. CHAIRPERSON Is that Application No. 8081/97? MR MADASA Yes Mr Chair. The reason being that it has transpired during consultation with him, that even though he had made an Application initially, he was in fact not involved in any of the offences associated with the Katlehong killing. He merely made an Application because he was advised to do so. Purely on the basis that he was a member of SDU. Thank you Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Is Mr Singamo here? Yes, Mr Singamo would you please go over there. What language do you want to speak? MR SINGAMO Yes I can hear you now sir. CHAIRPERSON You heard your attorney telling us that you did not partake in the incidents of Katlehong in December 1993? Your attorney is making a request or your advocate is making a request that you withdraw your Application for Amnesty. MR SINGAMO CHAIRPERSON What I would like to understand and know is, are you withdrawing your Application for Amnesty before this Commission? MR SINGAMO CHAIRPERSON The people that appear before this Commission are people who are guilty of certain cases, who have come to apply for amnesty in connection with those cases. Do you understand? MR SINGAMO I understand. CHAIRPERSON You have told this Commission that you have never - you are not guilty of anything. MR SINGAMO I could tell the Commission what happened. CHAIRPERSON We would like to know that you have nothing to do with these incidents that we are about to hear? MR SINGAMO No, not at all. CHAIRPERSON Therefore we are going to withdraw your Application for Amnesty. I would like clarity - you are not guilty of anything? MR SINGAMO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON The people that appear before this Committee are guilty, people who know they guilty of something or other. Do you understand? MR SINGAMO CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SINGAMO As we were arrested, our case, it says that on the 31st August we must go to the High Court in Johannesburg. When we were making applications for amnesty as we realised how serious this is. I would like to know what happens to me on the 31st August when I go to Court? CHAIRPERSON You will discuss that with your attorney. MR SINGAMO Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Well the Application for Amnesty in respect of Sivewe Malcomess Singamo, Application No. 8081/97 is hereby withdrawn. MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chair. With regard to the rest of the Applicants, Mr Chair, I would like to state as follows, that all the Applicants except Malcolmess Singamo, they apply for amnesty in respect of the Katlehong Massacre and all offences associated with those killings and those killings are in respect - the application is in respect of the killings that took place at Katlehong on the 7th December 1993 at Moleleki Section and in connection with all the acts or offences associated with the said killings. Mr Chair the following facts have been agreed upon by the parties:- 1. That all the Applicants referred to were members of the SDU in Moleleki Section, Katlehong at the time in question. 2. That the Applicants were all members of the ANC. 3. That the Applicants were involved in the said killings and/or offences associated with the killings. 4. That the following Applicants participated only in the acts - I should say in other acts associated with the killing but not the killing itself. CHAIRPERSON The Applicants that you are about to enumerate did not take part in the killings. MR MADASA Yes Mr Chair. That is in the killing per se. They are Michael Sonti, Solly Mashinini, Michael Sonti is Applicant No. 5. Solly Mashinini, Applicant No. 9, Bennet Ndabe Applicant No. 13, Themba Mtshali Applicant No. 14. Also that - all the Applicants during the killing and/or commission of offences or acts associated with the killing were armed with various sorts of weapons which differed from person to person. Further that the parties are in disagreement as to the following 1. Whether the acts or offences committed by the Applicants were acts or Offences associated with a political objective in terms of the Act. 2. Whether the Applicants in respect of the various Applications made full disclosure in respect of particular acts or offences they claim to have committed. Lastly, whether the deceased persons, one Bulelewa Zwane who is deceased No. 1 on the list of deceased on Page 2 of the bundle and Julia Buthelezi, deceased No. 3 on the list were amongst the victims or the people that were killed at the site. Sorry Mr Chair, there is something that I want to clarify with my learned friend. Sorry Mr Chair I want to make one correction. My last item. The submission should be, who are in disagreement whether the deceased persons Bulelwa Zwane and Julia Buthelezi were amongst the people who were killed by the Applicants. In other words I delete the site. That is all Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Madasa. Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA I confirm what Mr Madasa Chairperson has said. Except that the last part of it, that is whether the two deceased persons who have been mentioned were killed by the Applicants or not. We were not sure whether it does not fall under the requirement for full disclosure or not or whether it was a question which actually exists separately from a requirement for full disclosure so we are drawing that to the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Are we to understand that the Applicants admit having been involved in the killing of the following persons Alfred Philemon Buthelezi, Thokozani Buthelezi, Ethumaleng Edward Motse, Lucas Buti Hlatswayo, Isaac Mogadi, Ditaba Joseph Mthembu, Petros Mavuso Modishwa, Miles Simon Simelane, Isaac Mbijana Motloung. MR MAPOMA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Have you prepared the list of persons whom the Applicants admit having kidnapped? MR MADASA No Mr Chair, we omitted that. CHAIRPERSON Is there any reason why that was not disclosed? MR MADASA CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa? MR MADASA Yes, I hear. CHAIRPERSON Okay, very well. At least we have made some progress, the adjournment was worthwhile. Yes Mr Madasa you may then continue. MR MADASA Mr Chair, I call Applicant No. 4, Petros Vusumuzi Mthembu. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mthembu, what language are you going to speak? MR MTHEMBU I would prefer to speak in Sotho sir. PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU [Sworn states] CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Madasa? MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chair. EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA Mr Mthembu, 1993 where did you live? MR MTHEMBU I lived in Moleleki Extension 2. MR MADASA How old were you at that time? MR MTHEMBU MR MADASA Were you involved in the killings of the people who were alleged to have been killed at Katlehong in December 1993? MR MTHEMBU Yes sir I was involved. MR MADASA How did you participate? MR MTHEMBU I took part. When an order was issued out that they be killed, I was present. When they were killed I was there. MR MADASA Can you still remember who issued the order? MR MTHEMBU Yes, Dondolo issued out an order. MR MADASA Did you participate in the actual killing? MR MTHEMBU No. MR MADASA What exactly did you do with regard to the killings. MR MTHEMBU I did not kill but I was part. MR MADASA You say you were a part, what do you mean by that? MR MTHEMBU MR MADASA Were you part of the people to whom the order to kill was issued? In other words were you ordered to kill even though you did not kill? MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR MADASA Did you agree with your order? Did you accept the order? MR MTHEMBU I did not personally accept that order but my presence there means that I accepted the order. MR MADASA Did you, as a result of the order that was issued go with the people who went to kill those people? MR MTHEMBU That is correct. MR MADASA When you went you knew that these people were going to be killed? Is that correct? MR MTHEMBU That is correct. MR MADASA Why did you go along with these people? MR MTHEMBU Because I was a member of that organisation. CHAIRPERSON Would that be the SDU? MR MTHEMBU That is correct. MR MADASA Were you armed? MR MTHEMBU No. MR MADASA Were you expected by Dondolo or the command structure? Were you expected to carry out the order? MR MTHEMBU Yes, he expected me to carry out the order. MR MADASA Did you intervene on behalf of any victim not to be killed? MR MTHEMBU No. MR MADASA Did you remain at the place where the people were killed until the killing was over? MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR MADASA Is there anything else associated with the killing that we are talking about that you did that you have not mentioned? MR MTHEMBU Can you please repeat your question sir? MR MADASA Is there anything else that you did associated with the killings that we are talking about which you have left out? MR MTHEMBU MR MADASA Did you have any political objective that you wanted to achieve by participating in the killings in the manner you have described? MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR MADASA What was it? MR MTHEMBU MR MADASA Yes, second reason? Are you finished? MR MTHEMBU I think I gave two objectives. MR MADASA Who was the source of trouble? MR MTHEMBU I am a little doubtful because you are not specific sir. MR MADASA Who was the cause of trouble in Moleleki that necessitate - that you maintain peace in the manner you did? MR MTHEMBU Gangsters sir, which existed and those who were referred to as the third force and the third point is that the Youth League were also part. MR MADASA Amongst the people who died, are there people whom you know were gangsters? MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON You mean the persons who were killed were members of the ANC Youth League? MR MTHEMBU Yes, those are the people I am referring to, that they were members of the ANC Youth League. MR MADASA So you are saying they were also gangsters as well? MR MTHEMBU That is correct. MR MADASA Now you have heard the Applicants who have already testified, have told the Committee about the acts of gangsterism committed by these youths. Is there any other evidence or are there any other acts which have not been mentioned in the Committee that you know of which you want to tell us as evidence of gangsterism or crimes committed by the youths? MR MTHEMBU Something comes to my mind. If I am not mistaken there was a 1400 white bakkie, they were on the back of this bakkie and this bakkie was a stolen bakkie - the youth. MR MADASA Do you remember when was this? MR MTHEMBU It is before this incident of killing, even though I am not certain about the date. MR MADASA Are there any of them that you know by names who were in that bakkie? MR MTHEMBU The bakkie was driven by Vips. MR MADASA Who else do you know by name who was amongst them? MR MTHEMBU Maseven was there. CHAIRPERSON Do you know the other names of Maseven? MR MTHEMBU MR MADASA Yes, carry on. Who else do you know by name? MR MTHEMBU MR MADASA Miele Miles? MR MTHEMBU Yes. That is my recollection sir. MR MADASA What did they do with the bakkie? MR MTHEMBU MR MADASA Where was this shack? MR MTHEMBU The shack was in Block D. MR MADASA Is that all? MR MTHEMBU That will be all. MR MADASA Now after these killings, is there anything that you, personally gained as a result of the killings? MR MTHEMBU Sir, I would like you to be specific. What do you mean by saying gain? What do you mean? MR MADASA Did anything, as a result of the killing, anything of value or the like? MR MTHEMBU There is nothing sir. MR MADASA Before the killing, were you aware of the death of Bulelwa and Blanko? Were you aware? MR MTHEMBU Yes. I was aware of the two deaths. MR MADASA Did you know when those deaths occurred? Bulelwa and Blanko, did you know when they were killed? Let me put it this way. At the time of the killings, did you know at that time, you said that you knew that Bulelwa and Blanko were killed. Did you know when they were killed? MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR MADASA When? MR MTHEMBU Bulelwa was killed the night after. She was killed the night after the youth was killed but Blanko was killed in the early hours of the morning. MR MADASA MR MTHEMBU Before. MR MADASA Or after? MR MTHEMBU Before. MR MADASA I have no further questions Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Mapoma? CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA MR MAPOMA Thank you sir. Mr Mthembu, why did you personally not agree with the order to kill the youth? MR MTHEMBU MR MAPOMA MR MTHEMBU It was a heavy thing to accept sir. MR MAPOMA Why? MR MTHEMBU Because my entire life, I had never killed a person. Now this really scared me. MR MAPOMA MR MTHEMBU Let me shortly answer your question. Psychologically and spiritually, no, but physically yes. MR MAPOMA Can you explain that? MR MTHEMBU MR MAPOMA Now as a person inside, what do you feel should have happened about them? MR MTHEMBU I expected anything. I cannot tell exactly what I expected. Anything could have happened. MR MAPOMA Now, before the order was given, an order to kill. Let me say this first. Where exactly was this order given? MR MTHEMBU We were at Block F. MR MAPOMA MR MTHEMBU No. MR MAPOMA Is that at the place where the youth were kept? MR MTHEMBU That is correct. MR MAPOMA When exactly did you arrive? Did you arrive when all the youth were already kept? MR MTHEMBU That is correct. MR MAPOMA Where were you from? MR MTHEMBU We were from the hospital to look for the Red Cross people, Red Cross Committee. MR MAPOMA When you say we, who was? MR MTHEMBU It was myself and the driver of - let me say the owner of the car and Jabu. I do not remember his surname. MR MAPOMA Where was Sepo Baloi? MR MTHEMBU Where? MR MAPOMA When you arrived, coming from Red Cross, where was Sepo Baloi? MR MTHEMBU He was present. MR MAPOMA Was he amongst you when you were coming from Red Cross? MR MTHEMBU No. MR MAPOMA Who else was not armed, other than yourself, when the order was given? MR MTHEMBU I would not remember who else was not armed sir. MR MAPOMA When you say you were not armed, you say you did not even have a knife? MR MTHEMBU Nothing sir. MR MAPOMA MR MTHEMBU That is correct. I am giving you an explanation. I would not go to the hospital with a weapon. We came back from the hospital and they were all gathered. MR MAPOMA MR MTHEMBU This is the situation. I was an operator. I did not use many weapons. Weapons that I could not handle with my hands. As an operator, we took turns now there are duty engaged, working with guns. Those who were not operators might have in their possession, knobkerries and those knives but as an operator I did not have anything. At that time maybe the order was going to be given to me, maybe to shoot and it was during that time where I would get a gun and then shoot. There is no conflict there. CHAIRPERSON As I understand the position, operators were coming in for their patrol duties were issued with the weapons to carry, during their patrol? MR MTHEMBU Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR MTHEMBU No. Those guns were not staying with the operators. CHAIRPERSON I think what Mr Mapoma wants you to deal with is that your Counsel has told us that all of you who were at the scene of the killing were armed with various weapons. Do you understand that? MR MTHEMBU I understand that. CHAIRPERSON You are now telling us that you were not armed with anything. Is that right? MR MTHEMBU That is right. CHAIRPERSON So I think he wants you to reconcile that. MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON He did not have enough time to do what? MR MTHEMBU I mean that he did not have enough time to listen to every one of us. It was just a quick thing. MR MOTATA MR MTHEMBU Sir, I thought you were carrying on with your question. Can you repeat that please? MR MOTATA I said that there is an understanding which was read to us, do you recall that understanding, read by Mr Madasa? MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR MOTATA And in that understanding he said, the Applicants, that is including you, you had all assortments of weapons when the killings were done. Do you recall that? MR MTHEMBU I recall. MR MOTATA CHAIRPERSON Did you tell your Counsel that you had a weapon on the day in question? MR MTHEMBU I think I told him sir. CHAIRPERSON That you had a weapon on the day in question? MR MTHEMBU No sir. Not that I had a weapon, I told him that I was not armed. MR MAPOMA Now what time of the day was it when this order to kill was given, what it at night or in the morning or in the afternoon? MR MTHEMBU MR MAPOMA MR MTHEMBU Not 10 at night, not 12 at night. During the day sir. MR MAPOMA Now when you arrived in the scene. Did you arrive with any of the youth to cause to join the others? CHAIRPERSON MR MAPOMA Thank you Chair. So is it your evidence that you did not participate in kidnapping any youth? MR MTHEMBU No. MR MAPOMA Did you assault any of them? MR MTHEMBU No sir. MR MAPOMA So all that you did in the whole incident was to be present when they were killed? MR MTHEMBU That is correct. MR MAPOMA And that is what you have to come to apply for amnesty here? Being present when they are killed? MR MTHEMBU That is correct. MR MAPOMA Now, you say you remained in the scene until the killing was over? MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR MAPOMA Did you witness any use of weapons like pangas, knives on the deceased persons? INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON At the veld? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson at the veld. MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR MAPOMA Now after the killing what did you do as a group? MR MTHEMBU I left together with my fellow members. We were now going to search all the shacks which were hiding place for the youth. MR MAPOMA Were there some of the members of the group who were left nearby the scene? MR MTHEMBU Not even one was left behind. MR MAPOMA Now when you were searching the shacks, did you go to the shack of Mr Buthelezi? MR MTHEMBU No, I did not go. MR MAPOMA Were you going in different groups when you were from the scene of the killing? MR MTHEMBU I do not recall separating into groups but as we walked along we were not in a group, we were not one group, some were walking in front of the others and others were just behind. MR MAPOMA Which area of the shacks did you go search? MR MTHEMBU Block E, Block D and Block A. MR MAPOMA Now did you find anything when you went searching? MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR MAPOMA What did you find? MR MTHEMBU We found different car engines. We found different motor vehicle parts. We found different clothing. We found blankets, radios. MR MAPOMA MR MTHEMBU MR MAPOMA Let me make this - let me just remind you. There is evidence here that amongst the youth that were captured was Thokozani Buthelezi, the son of Mr Alfred Buthelezi, did you get that? MR MTHEMBU I heard that rumour. MR MAPOMA MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR MAPOMA MR MTHEMBU I do not know sir. I want to tell you what happened in my presence. At the shack before they were taken down, he said that we are in this situation today because of you and your group. MR MAPOMA Who said what? MR MTHEMBU The son was addressing the father. MR MAPOMA Now, when you left the scene of killing, you went to search for items associated with the criminal activities of what you call the gangsters, is it not the case? MR MTHEMBU Not necessarily sir. Our intention was not to search for the stolen goods. MR MAPOMA [inaudible] MR MTHEMBU We were going to search for a gun that was stolen from Blanko on the day of his death. MR MAPOMA Did you get the gun? MR MTHEMBU No. We did not get the gun. MR MAPOMA But after getting some of the items you continued with your search, is this so? MR MTHEMBU Repeat your question sir. MR MAPOMA MR MTHEMBU You were not specific sir. We did not find the items and take them. We found them inside then we carried on searching for - searching in the other shacks. MR MAPOMA MR MTHEMBU MR MAPOMA MR MTHEMBU That was what I discovered. MR MAPOMA Whose car was it? MR MTHEMBU I do not have the names of the owner of the car but he was a resident there. MR MAPOMA MR MTHEMBU If you remember what I said earlier on, I said they searched houses or shacks where they thought it was a hiding place for them, not their parents homes. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Do you have any re-examination Mr Madasa? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA Just one question Mr Chair. Remember you said, to use your words, "psychologically and spiritually", you did not agree with the order but physically you did. Now my question is, was the carrying out of the order dependent on your personal feelings? CHAIRPERSON MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chair. I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA CHAIRPERSON Very well. Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions? MR SIBANYONI Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mthembu, by saying you were merely present at the place where the order was made, are you trying to tell the Committee that you participated in the deliberations, in the discussions which lead to the order being made? MR MTHEMBU MR SIBANYONI MR MTHEMBU The charging of emotions is different. I must say I was deeply disturbed and hurt because I lost them. MR SIBANYONI MR MTHEMBU I did not assist in dragging them. I was walking like anyone who was escorting them to the veld. MR SIBANYONI Never even laying a hand on any of these people? MR MTHEMBU No. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Malan? MR MALAN Just on this last question. Are you telling us that the children walked voluntarily into the veld, knowing that they were going to be killed and shot? MR MTHEMBU Sir, if you understood me well, well, let me repeat myself. Maybe you did not understand me. I said I was one of the people who accompanied them. Members of the SDU were present and all of us were walking together with these youth. MR MALAN MR MTHEMBU I would say yes. There was force used. Because they were being pushed. MR MALAN Who pushed them? Did you push them? MR MTHEMBU Ramabele was present. Moses. Those who were carefully guarding them were those on the sides who were armed with guns. MR MALAN MR MTHEMBU No. MR MALAN What was your role? Did you not participate physically in any way, you were simply an observer walking along to their killing? MR MTHEMBU I was not an observer sir according to the way you put it. I was accompanying them because if it happened that they ran away I was going to chase after them. MR MALAN Mr Mthembu, were they not all tied with a rope, their hands tied, tied around their necks? This is part of the evidence before us, they were all tied to each other with a rope, is that not so? MR MTHEMBU That is correct. They were tied up. MR MALAN So how do they run away that you have to chase after individuals? MR MTHEMBU Sir, it might have happened that they got loose. MR MALAN MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR MALAN Did you assault any of them? MR MTHEMBU No. MR MALAN Did you carry no weapon? MR MTHEMBU I did not have a weapon in my hand. MR MALAN MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR MALAN In your evidence in chief my note says that you had no idea where they got the bakkie from but they had some pleasure with it, fun with it and then they drove it down the cliff. Why did you tell us at that stage you had no idea where the bakkie was from? MR MTHEMBU I heard the rumour that this van was hijacked from a resident of Moleleki, when was this hijacked I do not know. MR MALAN And the bakery, did that belong to a resident of Moleleki? MR MTHEMBU The bakery did not belong to any of the inhabitants of Moleleki but it belonged to a black man. MR MALAN And the Skyline? MR MTHEMBU I did not know whether it belonged to a white man or a black man. MR MALAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata? MR MOTATA CHAIRPERSON Do you know why the youth were killed? MR MTHEMBU Yes. CHAIRPERSON Why were they killed? MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON Were they killed because they broke away from the SDU? MR MTHEMBU I would not say they excluded themselves from the SDU. The reason is that they became the renegades, they became the enemy of those who were protecting the community, that is the reason. CHAIRPERSON What made them to be the enemy of the community? MR MTHEMBU They were attacking the very same community of their own. CHAIRPERSON Were they killed because they were suspected of being involved in some criminal activities? MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON What are the other points? MR MTHEMBU Now during that time of fighting, the Government of that day had ways that they manipulated to get into the organisations to bring divisions into the organisations. You would find that a person who is well known in that organisation is killed because of this. CHAIRPERSON What is the other reason why they were killed? MR MTHEMBU They were not stable in the ANC. They were now on the side of this known person of the IFP. CHAIRPERSON Are we to understand you as saying these youth were killed because they associated themselves with a person who was perceived to be a member of the IFP? MR MTHEMBU They themselves were under his wings. CHAIRPERSON Are we to understand you as suggesting that these youth were killed because they associated themselves with a person who was perceived to be an IFP member? MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON What are the other points for which they were killed? MR MTHEMBU The weapons they used were used by the Defence Force or the Police. CHAIRPERSON Any other reason why they were killed? MR MTHEMBU I think that will be all. CHAIRPERSON Were these youth not killed because they were suspected of having killed Bulelwa and Blanko? MR MTHEMBU I do not have the reality of that point sir. CHAIRPERSON You have no knowledge of that? MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON Were they not killed because they were suspected of having killed Blanko? MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON These youths were killed for a number of reasons? MR MTHEMBU Yes, the reasons I have already furnished. CHAIRPERSON So that even if Bulelwa and Blanko had not died, they would have been killed? MR MTHEMBU I do not know. I do not have the certainty of what would have happened. CHAIRPERSON Do you know why they were killed shortly after the death of Bulelwa and Blanko? MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON Is there anything arising Mr Madasa? MR MADASA Nothing arising Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Nothing Chairperson. MR MALAN MR MTHEMBU If I am not mistaken, I had eight months. I am not sure let me say I am not sure. MR MALAN You were aware that the work of the operator is to shoot when instructed to shoot? MR MTHEMBU Your question is tricky sir. I would ask you to be specific. MR MALAN MR MTHEMBU Your question is? MR MALAN My question is, are you in agreement with that statement? That the work of an operator is, when the command comes to shoot, not to question but to shoot? MR MTHEMBU You will not ask sir. You will execute the order. CHAIRPERSON Anything arising? MR MADASA No Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mthembu. You may return to your seat. Yes, Mr Madasa? MR MADASA Mr Chair, with your permission I am very pressed. May I ask for 5 minutes adjournment? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MADASA Thank you sir. CHAIRPERSON We will rise and will you let us know when you are ready? COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR MADASA I now call Michael Armoed, Applicant No. 1. CHAIRPERSON What language are you going to speak sir? INTERPRETER MR ? Would you please stand? MICHAEL ARMOED [Sworn states] CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Armoed. Mr Madasa, yes, continue. MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chair. EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA Mr Armoed, in December 1993 where were you living? MR ARMOED I was in Moleleki Extension 2. MR MADASA [inaudible] MR ARMOED I was an operator. MR MADASA What is an operator? MR ARMOED The operator was a person who shoots. MR MADASA At the killing in Katlehong, in that year, December 1993, were you present? MR ARMOED Yes, I was present. MR MADASA Did you have any role that you played? MR ARMOED MR MADASA Tell us about the part you took? MR ARMOED Comrade Nchebe came to me. MR MADASA [inaudible] the killing or before the killing or the same day? MR ARMOED On the day of the killing of Bulelwa. MR MADASA Nchebe Dondolo? The same person, okay? MR ARMOED Yes. MR MADASA Go on. MR ARMOED When Nchebe arrived, he knocked at the door, he said Comrade Armoed, death has arrived and I asked him what happened. He said let us go, you will see for yourself. We then left, the two of us. On our way he told me that Bulelwa had been shot and I asked who did this and he told me that he did not know. When we arrived there, the community was already gathered. MR MADASA [inaudible] did you arrive? MR ARMOED At Block F. MR MADASA MR ARMOED Yes. MR MADASA Yes, go on. MR ARMOED When we arrived there we looked at Bulelwa. Indeed I did not know her but I saw her lying on the ground. It was my first time on that day to see her. We spoke with Comrade Nchebe, we were discussing as to the step for what and then we met these other men that I did not know. They were present at the scene where Bulelwa was lying. MR MADASA Those men, are they - were they members of SDU ANC Youth League or just members of the community? MR ARMOED They were just members of the community. MR MADASA Go on. MR ARMOED He said to me I must accompany him to go and get a car and that we will come and fetch the corpse. I then accompanied him. It is true we got hold of a car and we came back. MR MADASA [inaudible] did you go and who else was with you when you went to get a car? MR ARMOED We were two. MR MADASA Came back and then what happened? MR ARMOED He then said, Comrade Sugar actually suggested that we should go look for them. MR MADASA [inaudible] MR ARMOED I arrived in August on the [inaudible] even though I am not sure of the date. And sometimes I did not stay in Moleleki. I used to travel long distances as I was working far away, coming back monthly. MR MADASA Yes, carry on. MR ARMOED We then went to look for them, moving towards C. When we got to C at some shack, there were boys who rushed out of the shack, shouting and insulting, saying, "here are these dogs". They rushed into the veld, then Comrade Sonti shouted, saying, "guys wait", we want to understand what your problem is. We then went on together with them. We then brought them before the community. MR MADASA How did you take them to the community? How? MR ARMOED We were escorting them. We did not hold them by their arms or hands. They were just walking freely on their own. And when we arrived, Comrade Sonti indicated that here are others, we have found them at C. They had cigarettes and a bottle, they should explain where they got hold of these things. MR MADASA Are you part of the people who took them to the shack? MR ARMOED Yes, I was there. MR MADASA What did you do with them at the shack? MR ARMOED Comrade Sugar closed the door and said to me, "Comrade, you will stay behind and watch over them. We are leaving to round up others." MR MADASA Were you armed, when you were keeping guard? MR ARMOED Yes I was armed. MR MADASA With what? MR ARMOED With an AK47. MR MADASA Yes, continue. MR ARMOED They then left until it was in the afternoon I was still there watching over them. Comrade Shongwe then arrived. I was still there in the shack and I said to him, "Comrade Shongwe, I want to go to the toilet, would you please take my place, watch over them." MR MADASA Is Shongwe one of the Applicants? MR ARMOED Yes, that is correct. MR MADASA [inaudible] MR ARMOED MR MADASA [inaudible] MR ARMOED On coming back from the toilet it was now light. There was also this other boy. CHAIRPERSON Wait a minute. Did you say when you arrived from the toilet there was light already? MR ARMOED Yes, there was light, it was around half past 6. CHAIRPERSON I thought you said you watched over them until it was daylight? MR ARMOED Yes I did that but to me that was round about 6. CHAIRPERSON MR ARMOED I am sorry about that. I cannot remember very well. CHAIRPERSON MR ARMOED Yes, I watched over them until morning, sunrise. MR MADASA Yes, continue. MR ARMOED I came back from the toilet and there was this other boy now this time who was my neighbour. MR MADASA Is that boy here amongst the Applicants? MR ARMOED He was already in the shack, he is here. MR MADASA He is not an Applicant? MR ARMOED No, he is not an Applicant. MR MADASA Do you know his name? MR ARMOED He is one of the boys whom we wanted. I then asked Comrade Shongwe if there is another one and he said "yes" and I asked him who brought him, and he said "Comrade Sugar brought him" and he was, that is Comrade Sugar was with other comrades. MR MADASA MR ARMOED CHAIRPERSON How many were there? MR ARMOED I then asked about Jabu, "what did Jabu do because yesterday I saw him at my place playing with my son" and they said "Jabu did nothing, he was not there when everything was happening". MR MADASA Is Jabu the one you say is alive and was your neighbour? MR ARMOED He indeed left, did as I told him then there were these two among the three that we had captured the previous night. I looked at them and I thought they are young. Some comrades arrived with Comrade Nchebe. MR MADASA Sorry, did the ones that you say you realised they were too young, did you do anything about those? Did you release them let me say? MR ARMOED Yes, I did, I released them too. Yes, they left. As I pointed out, none of them whose name I knew. They then left and by which time other comrades had arrived. Comrade Dondolo and other comrades, many of them. Comrade Dondolo, he came with two others. Comrade then said, "we are still waiting, waiting for Sugar, he is going to come along with Buthelezi." Comrade Sugar and Buthelezi indeed arrived and he opened the shack door and put him inside. I peeped through the door trying to hear what was being said. Comrade then asked, saying, "Buthelezi boy, just explain what happened?" MR MADASA MR ARMOED We then left and Dondolo spoke, saying he had found a decision, an order that they should be killed, they must be killed. I did not have any power to disagree with me because he was my superior. He gave another comrade a rope to tie them and he indeed tied them with that rope. They were taken out of the shack and moved downwards. They were escorted, being beaten by the stick, beaten by another Comrade [inaudible], I cannot remember his name. They arrived there, Comrade Nchebe and Dondolo said they should sit down. MR MADASA Did you leave together, all of you? MR ARMOED Yes, we all left together at the same time. MR MADASA Yes. MR ARMOED As we were closer, Comrade Sugar and Comrade Nchebe said we should just wait here. We waited there, Comrade Nchebe then took the AK that I had with me and I told him that the AK that I had did not have bullets. He then took the other AK that was carried by Shongwe. He got into a shack that I did not know to whom it belonged. He was with Comrade Sugar. After a while we heard gunshots. MR MADASA Did you later find out who the person was killed in that shack, where Dondolo and Sugar went into? MR ARMOED MR MADASA Yes. MR ARMOED On arrival at home I asked my wife as to whether Jabu had not yet arrived and she said "yes, he did come but he went next door but he is injured on the hand, his arm and it looks like he had gone to hospital." That was it. MR MADASA Do you know specifically which people you shot at? MR ARMOED Yes, I know the people that I shot because I know they were, I think, members of the Youth League. MR MADASA Do you know their names or identities? MR ARMOED MR MADASA [inaudible] MR ARMOED I am not sure because I was still new in the area. MR MADASA [inaudible] activities of the ANC Youth League before you participated in the killing? MR ARMOED Yes, there are some things that I knew that I saw about the Youth League itself. MR MADASA What did you see? MR ARMOED One person came by the name of Alfred. He was driving a 1400. He is my friend, Alfred Makanye. MR MADASA Was he SDU or ANC Youth League? MR ARMOED No, he was an old man. He was not an SDU member. He was just an ordinary person. We spoke and then he left saying he is going to Motlomo. He would see me later when he comes back. After he had just left, he came back walking on foot and he said boys had just robbed him of his car at the corner. And I said to him I am also surprised because I was standing outside and I saw this 1400 driving past. I thought he had lent them the car. MR MADASA Did you find his car afterwards? MR ARMOED Yes, he did, after a few days. He found it thrown into a ditch. MR MADASA Is there any other activity of the ANC Youth League that you knew of? MR ARMOED No, apart from hearsay as to what they were doing, the community was complaining about them. MR MADASA Did you receive any information from your comrades, SDU members about their activities? MR ARMOED Yes indeed. I did get some information from comrade members when I came back from work. MR MADASA Now if you were not - let me leave that. What was the political objective of killing these people? MR ARMOED Our political objective was to protect the community. MR MADASA How was that going to be achieved by the killings? MR ARMOED We would achieve it by way of - we knew that the gangsters and Inkatha were harassing the community. CHAIRPERSON Did you say you knew that Inkatha and the gangsters were harassing the community? Did you use the word Inkatha? MR ARMOED MR MADASA Were the people that you killed part of the gangsters and Inkatha members who were harassing the community? MR ARMOED Yes. I can say that is correct because our SDU comrades were saying their deeds were unacceptable in the community. MR MADASA At the time that you participated in the killing, did you believe that the people you killed were part of the group that was harassing the community? MR ARMOED MR MADASA Did you benefit personally anything as a result of your participation in the killings, anything of value? MR ARMOED None at all by killing these people but because I was protecting the community that means I benefit. MR MADASA Did the community benefit from your killings? MR ARMOED Yes, the community was protected because we killed criminals and Inkatha. MR MADASA No further questions Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA CHAIRPERSON Would this be an appropriate time to take the adjournment? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS