amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS BOKSBURG 4 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54637&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/bok/bok1_katleho4.htm MICHAEL ARMOED: (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa, you had completed your examination in chief? ADV MADASA Yes, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions? Mr Armoed, on the 7th of December 1993, when you were taking the youth to the veld, you were armed as an operator? Yes. Now, are there any operators who are not armed? There was only one. Who was that one? Vusu Mthembu. Do you know of any reason why he wasn't armed? No. Did you not find out, as other operators, why an operator is not armed? No, I did not establish why the other operator was not armed. Do you know Jabulani Nkmalo(?). No, I don't know Jabulani Nkmalo. I know Jabulani Ngdoese. Is Jabulani Ngdoese in this hearing today? Yes, he is here. Can you point him? Yes. For the record, chairperson, the person who has just been pointed is referred to in our records as Jabulani Nkmalo. CHAIRPERSON So is Jabulani Ngdoese and Jabulani Nkmalo, the same persons? I don't know about that, I know he is Ngdoese. CHAIRPERSON Just a minute, Mr Armoed, I just want to clarify the matter with Mr Mapoma. Is Jabulani Nkmalo and Jabulani Ngdoese one and the same person? Chairperson, it's difficult because in our records, we don't have any Jabulani Ngdoese, we have Jabulani Nkmalo, and this Jabulani Nkmalo is that person who has just been pointed now as Jabulani Ngdoese by the witness. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Now in your evidence ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON Sir, Mr Nkmalo, what are your full names? Is Jabulani your name? MR NKMALO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Are you also called Jabulani Ngdoese? Is your father Ngdoese? MR NKMALO Yes, that's correct. Thank you, chairperson. Now, Mr Armoed, I'm going to refer to this person as Jabulani, you said in your evidence in chief that you found this person in the shack when you were from the toilet, is that correct? Yes, that's correct. And you inquired from him how did he happen to be there? Yes, I asked him what he wanted? You're referring to Jabulani? Yes, that's correct. Were you seeing him for the first time in the shack on that day? Yes, I was seeing him for the first time in that shack. Is it correct that Jabulani stays in your area in Moleleki? Yes, that is correct. So it is not correct that Jabulani stays somewhere else? At that time he was staying, residing in Moleleki, and he left, I don't know where he went to. Isn't it correct that when Jabulani was abducted from his home, you were one of the people who were there? That is not correct. Jabulani will say that you were there amongst the men who took him by force from his home. What do you say on that? He would be telling a lie, because I was not there when he was taken, I would not have let him go. Now, when you were on guard for the youth in Ishaga(?), who gave you instructions to be on guard? It was Sugar Ramebele. Where was Sugar when you released Jabu? Sugar was not there when I released Jabu. CHAIRPERSON Is Jabu and Jabulani one and the same person? I'm sorry, chairperson, for the record yes, it's one and the same person. Can you explain how did you happen to release a person when you have been given instructions to keep that person? I was not ordered to keep him, because I found him there in the shack when I came back from the toilet and I asked him what he wanted. He then told me that he was fetched by some men at home and brought there. And when you released the other two young, how did you release those? I released the other two because Rame had instructed me that if young ones were brought here, I should release them. Now, when you, let's go to the place where the corpse of Bulelwa was lying. You said in your evidence in chief that you left with the driver of the car, together with Njebe to, where were you going? I left with Njebe to go and look for a car, we found it, we came back. Njebe then left with Nthebo, he did not go with me in a car, I was left behind. So it was Njebe, Sipho Baluang and the driver? Yes, that is correct. Where was Mr Mthembu, who has just given evidence here? Mr Mthembu was not there at the time. Now you said Jabulani was injured when you saw him in the shack? Yes, he was injured in the arm. Did he tell you how he happened to be injured? Yes, he told me, he said he was beaten by one of the self defence unit members. Did he tell you who from the self defence unit injured him? No, he said he didn't know him. Thank you chairperson, those are my questions. RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV MADASA Mr Armoed, when you released the youth that you released, you had not, had you, were you already given the order to kill him? No, I was not given such orders. ADV MADASA Had you been given an order to kill them already, would you have released them? No, I would not have released them. ADV MADASA Why not? Because in that case the orders would have been given already. ADV MADASA I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MADASA CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions? Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Armoed, you said the NYD self defence units were formed were to protect the community. I want to know from you, to protect the community from whom? We were protecting the community in fear of Inkatha and gangsters. Right. And that protection, what did it entail, what were your terms of reference, how were you to protect the community, by doing what? We had to patrol at night, looking for Inkatha and gangsters, make sure that no-one of the community, none in the community is harassed. Now, in the event you find these gangsters and Inkatha, what were you supposed to do with them? We would capture them and if the commander was there, he is the one who would issue an order what to do with them. In other words there were no clear indications, before those people would be arrested, what should be done with them in the event they are arrested? Yes, it was not clear, because we were supposed to take them to the commander if he was not nearer, and he was the one who would give an instruction as to what to do with them. Mr Armoed, when the, if the Internal Stability Unit arrived, to pick up the corpse, were you present? No, I was not there, I was watching over the boys in the shack. Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Malan? MR MALAN No questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata? ADV MOTATA Thank you, chairperson. Mr Armoed, I just have one question for you. You say whilst escorting the comrades to the veld, they were beaten up. Do you recall you saying that? Yes, I remember saying that. ADV MOTATA Could you give us an indication how they were assaulted whilst escorted to the veld? They were beaten by sticks at the back and the buttocks. ADV MOTATA Would I be understanding you to say that you people, that is the SDU's, had assortment of weapons, including sticks, when you escorted them to the veld? Yes, there were sticks. ADV MOTATA Are you able to give an indication who amongst your members carried such weaponry, that is sticks for instance? One SDU member, he is not here now, he is Manyinalese, that is his name. ADV MOTATA Are you saying then that only one member had a stick? The one stick that I saw being used was only that one. I cannot remember whether there were other sticks or not, but we usually used to carry sticks. ADV MOTATA Now those who were carrying guns, for instance AK47's, did they use such weaponry in the assault? No, they did not use the guns at that time. ADV MOTATA Thank you, chairperson, I've got no further questions. MR SIBANYONI You told us that you came to Moleleki section in about August 1993? Yes, that is correct. MR SIBANYONI You were an operator, were you not? Yes, that's correct. MR SIBANYONI Were you trained how to use the firearm? Yes, I was trained. MR SIBANYONI And did you take part in the activities of the SDU? Sometimes, if I was present, I used to take part in the activities of the SDU, yes. MR SIBANYONI There is an allegation by some of the witnesses, such as Jabulani Nkmalo, Thulam Hendinlolu(??), and (Indistinct) and Vuyana Tshabalala, to the effect that initially the SDU's patrolled during the night, while the Youth League patrolled in the evening. Do you know that? No, I don't know a thing about that. MR SIBANYONI These individuals that I've mentioned, Tshabalala, Nkmalo, Maya, further allege that, despite patrols conducted by the SDU in the evening, there were bodies of individuals which were found, and that led to the dissatisfaction with the SDU. Do you know anything about that? Yes, I would like to say something about this. MR SIBANYONI Yes? They too used to patrol the whole night, together with our SDU, not that they used to patrol in the evening only, and the SDU patrol at night, no, that was not the case. Yes, it is true, we used to hear that a person has died somewhere, and therefore it was inexplicable as to how such a person had died. Because of that, as time went on it transpired who were doing these things. MR SIBANYONI Who were responsible for these? The very same Youth League, the ANC Youth League. MR SIBANYONI Was the community of Moleleki at any stage concerned about the fact that, despite patrols that were conducted, people died in circumstances where no-one seemed to know what was the cause why these people had been killed? Yes, that is correct, they were concerned. I too was concerned about the people who were found dead, not knowing what the reason thereof is. MR SIBANYONI Was there any meeting which was called by the community in order to seek an answer to this problem? I wouldn't say there was a meeting convened, because I myself was not there for a very long time, I was at work, most of the time that is. MR SIBANYONI At the time where were you working? I was working at Majuba Power Station in Hammarsfort. MR SIBANYONI Yes. And how often did you come home? If I had left home on the 20th, I would come back on the 15th of the following month. MR SIBANYONI There is an allegation that some time in September 1993, a meeting of the community was called to address this problem of people dying despite the patrols, do you know of that meeting? No, I don't know about that meeting. MR SIBANYONI Were you not told of any such meeting? No. MR SIBANYONI When you returned from your place of employment, did you endeavour to find out how the problem of persons who were being killed despite the patrol had been resolved? I tried to find out, and I was told the problem had not been solved, because people still died, they still continued to be killed. MR SIBANYONI Vuyani Tshabalala alleges that as a result of these inexplicable deaths, the Youth League decided to patrol blocks A, B, C and D. Do you know anything about that? Yes, I heard about that, that the Youth League patrols from block A to D, but as far as I saw them, they were all over the place. MR SIBANYONI Did you endeavour to find out why the Youth League was patrolling A to D? Yes, I did ask that the Youth League patrolled from A to D, and they said they didn't want to combine with elder people. MR SIBANYONI Did the SDU accept this arrangement? The SDU did not accept this arrangement. MR SIBANYONI Why not? Because they realised that there was going to be a big trouble. MR SIBANYONI What trouble did they have in mind? The very same problem of people dying and the car hijacking, and the shooting of cars. MR SIBANYONI And what steps, if any, were taken by the SDU to prevent this trouble? I was not there, I just heard that the SDU is now patrolling the community taxis now that they were being shot, that is the taxis. MR SIBANYONI But what did they do about the fact that the Youth League was now patrolling blocks A, B, C and D? I don't know, I know there's nothing they did, they accepted the fact that the Youth League was patrolling A, B, C and D. According to my knowledge, as I heard, they did not accept that. MR SIBANYONI What did they do to make sure that that did not happen? I don't know, it looks like they did nothing. MR SIBANYONI So even though they were not happy with the fact that the Youth League was patrolling A, B, C and D, they nevertheless did nothing? No, I don't know whether there's something that they did, but according to my knowledge, there is nothing that they did. MR SIBANYONI They allowed the Youth League to continue patrolling A, B, C and D? I don't know whether they accepted or not, but I just know they were not happy about the arrangement. Whether they allowed them to continue, I don't know, I was not there. MR SIBANYONI Do you know of any actions that were taken by the SDU to ensure that the Youth League did not patrol A, B, C and D? Yes, I can say they did take action to make sure that they don't patrol these areas, A, B, C and D, but all these other areas. MR SIBANYONI What steps did the SDU take? They called these boys, spoke to them, talked to them and said, "Because you are patrolling from A to D, if you are all over the place, what is it that you are looking for?" MR SIBANYONI Would you just repeat that? SDU members, we called these boys when we came across them at night and we said, "Now that you are here in F and you should be patrolling, you are patrolling A to D". MR SIBANYONI So the Youth League was called and asked, "Why are you patrolling F, because as far as we know, you're supposed to patrol A to D?" Yes, we asked them. MR SIBANYONI So, in other words, the SDU accepted the fact that the Youth League was to patrol blocks A, B, C and D? Yes, I can say so, but according to my knowledge, the last time I heard they had not accepted it. MR SIBANYONI It has taken you too long to answer that question. Now when you met them at night and asked them, "Why are you now patrolling block F as well?", what did they say? They said they don't want to be instructed by people who come from the rural areas, we should just leave them alone. MR SIBANYONI And what was the response of the SDU? We let them go and they just continued. MR SIBANYONI Yes. I understand that at some point there is a meeting which was held at block F, which was to discuss the formation of an SDU which was to patrol F section. Do you know anything about that meeting? Yes, there is a little that I heard about this meeting. MR SIBANYONI Yes. What do you know about this meeting? What I heard being said in that very same meeting, I was told that they were forming a new SDU. MR SIBANYONI This SDU was going to operate in F block? The person who told me indicated that it was going to patrol block E and F. MR SIBANYONI If such an SDU had been formed, the result would have been that the Youth League would then be patrolling the whole of Moleleki section? If it had succeeded, they would have patrolled block F only, it would not patrol the whole Moleleki section. MR SIBANYONI Ja. But I thought that at the time they were already patrolling block A, B, C and D? Will you please repeat? MR SIBANYONI Well, you mentioned earlier on that you, the SDU accepted that the Youth League was patrolling blocks A, B, C and D? Yes, that is correct. MR SIBANYONI Now, a further meeting was held, which was to discuss the formation of an SDU which was to patrol block F, and you mentioned earlier on that, according to your information, that SDU was going to patrol E and F, right? The new SDU was going to patrol only block F, that is if it had succeeded. MR SIBANYONI And this new SDU would have comprised of the Youth League? Yes, the Youth League would be the members of the very same new SDU. MR SIBANYONI Now, if they had been successful in the formation of the new SDU, the end result would be that the Youth League would be patrolling the whole of Moleleki section? They would not patrol the entire Moleleki section, they would only patrol section F, I mean block F, because we were in the other sections or blocks. MR SIBANYONI But, Mr Armoed, you've just told us that the Youth League was patrolling block A, B, C and D? Yes, I did say that, that the Youth League patrolled from A to D, and they went on to patrol in F. MR SIBANYONI What I'm saying to you is that if they now, if now a new SDU was being formed, which consisted of members of the Youth League, which was going to patrol E and F, the end result would be that the Youth League would then patrol whole of Moleleki section? Yes, that is correct. MR SIBANYONI The SDU did not accept this? Yes, that is correct. MR SIBANYONI Do you know of any actions that were taken by the SDU to make sure that this did not happen? No, I don't know any action taken. MR SIBANYONI Were you aware of any meetings that were held by the SDU at which it was decided what course of action had to be taken in order to prevent the Youth League from patrolling the whole of Moleleki section? No, there's nothing I knew about that. MR SIBANYONI Now, coming to the persons that were killed on the 7th of December 1993, do you know why these individuals were killed? Yes, I know. MR SIBANYONI Why were they killed? They were killed because they were gangsters who had killed Bulelwa and Blanko. You do know the deceased Wipstein(?)? Yes, I know him. MR SIBANYONI Do you know how he died? No, I don't. MR SIBANYONI Did you know him before his death? Yes, I knew him before he died. MR SIBANYONI I understand that he was, was he a leader of the youth? Yes, he was leader of the youth. MR SIBANYONI When did you hear for the first time that he had died? I cannot remember. If I am not mistaken, it was on the 10th of December, that is when I heard that he had died. MR SIBANYONI Did you consider him to have been the leader of what you consider to be the gangsters? Yes, that is correct. MR SIBANYONI Did you at any stage make inquiries as to how he had died? Yes, I tried to find out how he died. MR SIBANYONI What were you told? I was told that he is the one who shot Bulelwa and Blanko, and he was with these people at night. MR SIBANYONI Yes, but were you told how he had died? No, they did not tell me how he died. MR SIBANYONI But did you yourself make inquiries as to how the leader of what you perceived to be the gangsters had died? Yes, I tried how he died, to find out how he died, but the people whom I was asking did not know how he died. MR SIBANYONI Today do you know how he died? His death and as to how he died, I only know he died because he killed Bulelwa and Blanko. MR SIBANYONI What I'm trying to establish is, as you are sitting here giving testimony, do you know how Vips was killed? I don't know how he was killed. I heard that he was killed around Khumalo, or at Khumalo, and he was killed for what he had done in Moleleki Extension 2. MR SIBANYONI Did you hear who killed him? Yes, I heard. MR SIBANYONI Who killed him? It was Manyala. MR SIBANYONI And who else? Koos, Koos. MR SIBANYONI Is Koos one of the applicants? No, he is not here. MR SIBANYONI Did you know how they killed him? No, I don't know how they killed him, but according to my understanding, he was found in Khumalo and they captured him there. They asked him what he did in Extension 2, Moleleki, and he explained that "We killed Bulelwa and Blanko". MR SIBANYONI Who told you all this? Comrade Manyala told me all this, gave me all this information. MR SIBANYONI Did Comrade Manyala, by the way Comrade Manyala is now dead, is it? Yes, that is correct. MR SIBANYONI Did Manyala tell you precisely how they killed them? Yes, he explained a little bit how they killed him. MR SIBANYONI What did he tell you? He told me they asked him, "Vips, why you did this?", and he explained that they were sent by Comrade Buthelezi to kill Bulelwa and Blanko, and they just took him and killed him. MR SIBANYONI And how did they kill him? They took him to the veld where they shot him. MR SIBANYONI And did he tell you what they did with his body? No, they didn't tell me what they did with his body. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, is deceased No 11, Isaac Mbijana Motloung, the person described as Vips? MR MAPOMA Yes, chairperson, he's Isaac Vips, his other name is Bijan. MR SIBANYONI Mr Armoed, did you know Vips's names? Yes. MR SIBANYONI What were his names? I don't know his full names, I only know the name Vips. MR MAPOMA Chairperson, if I may be of assistance, there's a human rights violations statement which appears on page 178 onwards. That statement, chairperson, at page 179, reflects Isaac Mbijana Vips Motloung. The statement, chairperson, was made by Selena Dombismene Motloung. MR SIBANYONI No, no, I'm looking for the post-mortem report. Yes, very well. Now, because Vips was the leader of the Youth League, did you make any inquiries at the time when you were killing the other individuals as to where Vips was? Yes, I asked them, the other Youth League members, and they told me that they had left, they had gone to Khumalo, that is Khumalo section. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa, is there anything ...(intervention). ADV MADASA Yes, just two questions. RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV MADASA Mr Armoed, sections A to D, were they an entry point to Moleleki or an exit point? They were entry points when you were going to other sections, these were entry points A and B. ADV MADASA A and B was the entry point? Yes, that is correct. ADV MADASA Because A and B was an entry point, was it therefore strategic when one was controlling the Moleleki section? Yes, we can say they were strategic points. ADV MADASA Why was it strategic? Because on entering, this was the entry point, and on leaving, this was the exit point. ADV MADASA Was it your perception that the Youth League wanted to have control of the exit and entry point to the section? Yes, they wanted to control the very same place, the very same area, that is the entry and exit point. ADV MADASA You didn't want the Youth League to have control of that point? Yes, the SDU did not want these A and B entry and exit points to be controlled. ADV MADASA Block F, in terms of violence coming from that (indistinct)? Yes, that is correct. ADV MADASA Because they were nearer to Zonke. I did not see any reason, but they saw a need to do that. ADV MADASA Now, despite all these arrangements, is it true that on the surface, the Youth League was in fact patrolling the whole area? Yes, that is correct. ADV MADASA And when the Youth League patrolled, planned to be in control of A to D, you did not cease as SDU to patrol that area, that is A to D? No, we stopped patrolling, we did not patrol A to D, we stopped at C and F and D. ADV MADASA For how long did you cease to patrol A to D, or should I say did you resume to patrol that area? We stopped patrolling that area, we continued patrolling C, A and B and F. ADV MADASA Can you come again, I'm confused, which areas did you continue now to patrol if you don't, if the Youth League was patrolling A to D? The places at which we continued to patrol was F and C and D and E. ADV MADASA Did you ever patrol A and B again? No, we didn't. ADV MADASA Why not? Because the Youth League was the one patrolling those areas. ADV MADASA But they were also patrolling C, D and F? Yes, yes, they were patrolling A and C and F. ADV MADASA So why didn't you stop patrolling C, D, I mean F, C, D and E? We discovered that there was a problem there, because that's where the taxis would gather, that was a taxi rank, I suppose. ADV MADASA I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MADASA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, sir. You say the deceased were killed because they were gangsters, and they killed Bulelwa and Blanko? Yes, that is correct. Now, Mrs Buthelezi, was she a gangster? No, I don't know why she was killed. And you were present when she was killed? No, I was not there, I was standing far away on the road. But those who killed her were from your company? Yes, that is correct. Now on their way back, did they tell you why they killed her? CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, does that question arise from the questions put by the committee? Well, chairperson, it arose from the reason why these people were killed. CHAIRPERSON I see, yes. You have said that you didn't know how Vips was killed? Yes, that is correct. And you only learnt on the 10th of December that in fact Vips was killed? Yes, that is correct. Now when you were on guard of the youth in the shack, isn't it correct that Nthebo came? Yes, Nthebo came. Isn't it correct that Nthebo reported that they have since killed Vips? No, he did not report that to me. Jabulani Nkmalo will say that while they were kept in the shacks, no, I'm sorry, it's not Jabulani Nkmalo, chairperson if you can just bear with me? Charles Mkwena will say that while they were still kept in the shack, Jabu came and reported that they have since killed Vips. I don't know anything about that. Thank you, chairperson. CHAIRPERSON When you, I understand that when you were issued with these firearms at the beginning of the patrol, the bullets were counted, is that right? Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did anyone count the bullets in your AK47 on the 7th of December 1993? Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Do you recall how many were there, before the shooting? Yes, I remember. CHAIRPERSON How many were there? Ten of them. CHAIRPERSON And did you use all those bullets on the deceased? Yes, I used them all. MR MALAN Mr Armoed, you said that you knew Vips as the leader of the gangsters? Yes, that is correct. The objective of the killing was to protect the community, and therefore you had to kill the gangsters, that was the order? Yes, that is correct. Was it not funny that the leader of the gangsters were not amongst them, didn't that strike you as strange? No, it did not surprise me. Why? Because Comrade Oscar did say that he saw them among the gangsters when they went to shoot and kill Comrade Blanko. Who did he say, that he saw them amongst the gangsters? Yes, Comrade Oscar says he saw them among the gangsters who killed Bulelwa and that comrade was Comrade Vips. Let me rephrase my question. My question is, Comrade Vips was seen amongst the gangsters, according to Comrade Oscar? Yes, that is correct. When you eventually capture the gangsters and they are killed, Vips is not among them? Yes, he is not there. Did you ask why? Yes, I did ask, and they said he had gone, he had gone to Khumalo. Who did you ask? I asked the very same boys, the gangsters. Did you take this up with any of your comrades in the SDU, did you ask any of them? No, I did not. Would one not have expected that some of the members of the SDU would have said, "Well we have all these gangsters here, but where is their leader?" No, we were not expecting that. Why not? Because the leader of the gangsters had already fled to Khumalo section. Mr Armoed, you heard the evidence that Vips was brought with a kombi to the meeting, can you recall that? Yes, I did hear that he was brought to the meeting in a kombi, but I did not see him. Now, you ask the boys about Vips, but you don't mention it to your comrades? It is because I only heard later that Vips was there in a kombi, that time during which I was in the shack watching over the boys, and I was told that Vips was there in the meeting. So you never spoke to your comrades about the absence of Vips at the time that the other youngsters were kept in the shack through to the time that they were killed? No, I did not. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON The only comrade that you came across at the shack was Shongwe, who you had asked to look after the boys whilst you had gone to the toilet, right? Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa, is there anything that you want to canvass further? ADV MADASA No, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well, thank you, Mr Armoed, you may return to your seat. Yes, Mr Madasa? WITNESS EXCUSED ADV MADASA Mr Chair, if you may recall yesterday, you requested that we make a list of people who were captured during the attack. I have some names in front of me here. I don't know if I'm ..(intervention). CHAIRPERSON Okay. Is that the list of persons whom the applicants admit having abducted? ADV MADASA Yes, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Would you read the list into the record please? ADV MADASA Firstly, a list of the victims are obviously people who were also captured by the applicants, except for Julia Buthelezi, Bullewa Zwane, that is except for deceased No 1 and 3. And then, in addition to that list are the following: Tusanang Lukabe, Mtabang Lukwena, Jabu Ngdoese, Vuyani ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON But also known as Jabu Nkmalo? ADV MADASA Yes, yes. Jan Tshabalala, Henry Nkamalo, Olf Zenamavu. Mr Chair, I wish to point out that this list are the names of people the applicants were able to recall, it doesn't mean there could be no other people which they left out and so on. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I understand that, yes. So you really have given us five names, including the deceased? ADV MADASA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well, you may proceed. ADV MADASA Mr Chair, I then call applicant No 2, Michael Langa Nkomo. LANGA MICHAEL NKOMO (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY ADV MADASA Mr Nkomo, how old are you now? I am 36 years old, sir. ADV MADASA Sorry, Mr Chair, I didn't hear his reply. CHAIRPERSON 36 years old. ADV MADASA Thanks. How far did you go at school? Standard three, sir. ADV MADASA In 1993, during the incident, where did you live? I was staying at Moleleki, Extension 2. ADV MADASA Which block? Block E, sir. ADV MADASA What was your rank in the SDU? I was patrolling with (TAPE GOES DEAD). ADV MADASA Do you know about the incident at (Indistinct)? Yes, I know about it. ADV MADASA Were you present when the victims were captured? I was present when they were captured. ADV MADASA Did you participate in capturing them? I took part in some of them. I took part in some of the capturing of other victims. ADV MADASA Sorry, Mr Chair, I had the wrong channel, I didn't hear the reply. CHAIRPERSON He said he took part in capturing some of the victims. ADV MADASA Who are the victims you captured, or you participated in their capture? When Motobane Mkgenwa was captured, and the other one, whom I don't remember his name, I was present. ADV MADASA Now tell the committee how did it come about that you captured them? When we left Comrade Blanko's shack, we heard gunshots. After some time Motobane came out and the other person, then that's when we captured them. ADV MADASA Where did Motobane emerge from? It is at the end of block C, from the veld. ADV MADASA Who was with him when you saw him? It was myself and Madikezele. ADV MADASA Who is Madikezele, is he amongst the applicants? No, he's not present, sir. And Makobong, he's not present among the applicants, and Michael Sonte and Michael Armoed, and others whom I don't remember the names now. ADV MADASA Was this after Blanko's death? That is correct. ADV MADASA Did these people (indistinct) have anything in their hands or possession? They had cigarette cartons. ADV MADASA And what else? And the petrol bombs. ADV MADASA What else? Those are the things I saw on the person. ADV MADASA Where did you take them to? We took them to block F. ADV MADASA Where exactly in block F? We took them to the place where Bulelwa's corpse was. ADV MADASA And what did you do with them? They were taken to a shack. ADV MADASA Were you amongst the people who took them to a shack? Yes, I was present when they were taken to a shack. ADV MADASA How were they taken to the shack, were they held or were they walking freely? They were walking freely in front of us, but we were guarding them. ADV MADASA Then what happened at the shack? They were locked inside the shack. Comrade Armoed was left behind to guard them and then we left to look or others. ADV MADASA Where did you go to look for others. To other blocks. ADV MADASA With whom did you go to look for others? It was Michael Sonti, Sugar Ramebele, Oscar Motlokwa and Moses August. Those are the names I'm able to remember. ...(tape ends) ...bringing this first group, the other group did not arrive yet, so went back to look for others. ADV MADASA The persons that you have just mentioned, that is Michael Sonte, Oscar Motlokwa and Moses August, were these the persons who were in your group? Yes, we were in one group. ADV MADASA Where did you go? We went to block A. ADV MADASA Whom did you find, if any? We found Tusanang. ADV MADASA And who else? When we returned with Tusanang, we found Jabulani Nkmalo. ADV MADASA Where did you find Nkmalo? We found him in one of the shacks, I don't know actually it was his home, but in the shacks where we found him. ADV MADASA What did you do with them? We took them to block F. ADV MADASA Are those the only people that you found? Yes, those are the people we were able to find. ADV MADASA How did you escort them back to the shack in block F? We were driving them. ADV MADASA Did you assault them? The one who was injured was Jabulani Nkmalo, on the arm, he was stabbed with a spear on the arm. ADV MADASA Who stabbed him? I don't remember well, but I think it's either Comrade Sonte or Comrade Mashinini, I don't remember who between these two. ADV MADASA Who had a spear amongst you? Comrade Sonte was having, Comrade Sonte and Mashinini had spears, I had an axe. ADV MADASA So you returned then to the shack. And then what happened? We took them to the shack. Whilst they were there being interrogated, I was outside. After some time, others were taken by some comrades when it was light. ADV MADASA Is there anything that you did, that you were involved in after you had taken Tsonang and Nkmalo to the shack? My role was when they were taken to the place where they were killed, I was there, I was present. ADV MADASA When you returned to F on the second occasion, you had two persons, namely Tsonang and Jabulani Nkmalo? That is correct. ADV MADASA Do you know how many persons were already in the shack at that stage? This I know were two, it was Makobong and the one I did not know. ADV MADASA Were there any others who had been captured by the other group? Others arrived late, they were brought by Comrade Sugar and other comrades. ADV MADASA How many were there? I don't remember well, I think there were three. ADV MADASA Yes, thank you. Now, you said you were present when these people were taken to be killed? Yes, I was present. ADV MADASA How did that come about? The order came from the commander that they should be taken to the veld and be killed. ADV MADASA Who was the commander? Dondolo Mchebe. ADV MADASA Were you present when the order was issued? I was a little bit aside, but I only became aware when they were taken out of the shack, then I learnt that the order has been given that they should be taken to the veld to be killed. ADV MADASA And then you went along? Yes. ADV MADASA Why did you go along? Because I was a member of the SDU. When the order is issued, I'm part of those people who should carry that order. ADV MADASA You were carrying the order? Were you carrying the order? That is correct, sir. ADV MADASA And did you kill anybody? After they were shot, what, I took part in the killing of Buthelezi, Buthelezi the elder. ADV MADASA With what did you kill him? After he was being shot, the commander ordered that those who have axes should finish them off, then I did that with my axe. ADV MADASA Mr Buthelezi is the only person you finished off with your axe? Yes, he's the only one. ADV MADASA And then what did you do afterwards? After that, we left after others finished others off, then we went back to the village. ADV MADASA Did you leave all at the same time? Yes, we left all at the same time. ADV MADASA Where did you personally go to, after you had finished? We left as a group. On the road, the commander said we should wait there. He went with Comrade Sugar to a certain house, I think it was Buthelezi's house, then after that we heard gunshots. ADV MADASA Who exactly went into the shack which you thought was Buthelezi's? It's Ntebe Dondolo and Sugar Ramebele. ADV MADASA Were they armed? Ntebe Dondolo had a shotgun, and Sugar Ramebele had a shotgun also. ADV MADASA And then what happened? When they returned, they ordered that we should go and search for others, whom we did not find. ADV MADASA Did you go? Yes, we left. ADV MADASA Where to? We went to C block. ADV MADASA Did you find anything there? We found Mtabang Lukwene. He was left because it was said that he's young. ADV MADASA You found him and left him where you found him? We took him so that he'll be able to identify others, where they were. ADV MADASA Did he show you others? No, we did not find any until we arrived at the shack where they used to stay, where they stayed as a gang. When we arrived there, we did not find anybody. ADV MADASA Are there any other, did you see any items there, at those shacks where they used to live? Yes, there were things there, things like hi-fi's, TV's, etcetera. ADV MADASA Then what did you do with Mtabang He was told to leave, because we did not find others. ADV MADASA After you had released him, did you go anywhere else? No, that's where I left and went home to sleep. ADV MADASA Do you know the ANC Youth League? Yes, I know ANC Youth League. ADV MADASA What was your view about them, as the SDU? I regarded ANC Youth League as part of us, because I was also a member of the ANC. ADV MADASA The people you captured, do you know to which organisation they belonged? I did not know which organisation they belonged. ADV MADASA The people that you killed, did you know what organisation they belonged to? I heard that they were members of the ANC Youth League, but I did not have facts about that, and especially in regard to activities they were engaged in. ADV MADASA What activities were they engaged in, the people you killed? Like taking people and killing people, to hijack people's cars, to loot spaza shops, those are the things which made not to believe that they were not members of the ANC Youth League, that I did not understand that those things are part of the code of conduct of the ANC Youth League, that people should be killed and should be, people should be, their property should be looted. ADV MADASA Now, what did you hope to achieve by killing those people? By killing these people we were trying to achieve peace, so that the community should live in peace. ADV MADASA How would the community have peace by killing those people? Because things which were happening then, that people were killed and people's property was stolen, did not happen after the killing. ADV MADASA When you killed these individuals, who did you think you were killing? I was thinking that we're killing the enemy of the community. ADV MADASA Why were they the enemy of the community? In regard to their activities in harassing the community. ADV MADASA Before the killing had you heard who was responsible for Bulelwa and Blanko's deaths? No sir, I did not hear. ADV MADASA Were you aware that they were dead? I only learnt when we captured those people that I was able to see that they were responsible for the killing. ADV MADASA When you captured them, did you interrogate them? Yes, we interrogated them. ADV MADASA What did they say about the killings of Bulelwa and Blanko? They said it's Vips and Tusanang who did that, and they were present. ADV MADASA As far as you were aware at the time, did Inkatha, IFP, have any hand on the activities of the ANC Youth League? Perhaps I would say that, because Inkatha was giving money and weapons by the boers. If they are able to associate themselves with some members of the ANC Youth League who do not understand the constitution and the activities of the ANC Youth League, they would do the work of the IFP. ADV MADASA Did you think the Instability Unit had anything to do with the Youth League? I did not believe that they had a hand. ADV MADASA Were you aware what kind of weapons the Youth League used? They were using these long guns which were used by the police. ADV MADASA Did you therefore suspect that the, where did you think they obtained those firearms from? I don't know where they found those guns. ADV MADASA But they are guns that resembled those of the police? Yes, they were similar to those used by the police. ADV MADASA As a result of your participation in the killings, did you benefit anything there personally? No, there was no benefit I gained. ADV MADASA Before you went to look for the people that you captured later on, were you told to do so? When we extinguished Comrade Blanko's shack, Madikezele, as a member of the committee, and Sugar, as a member of the executive committee present there, of the SDU, instructed us that we should go and capture those people who are responsible for these deeds. ADV MADASA I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MADASA Do you know why Motobane Mkgenwa was released from those captured? When a number of youth were held ...(intervention). No, what's the answer to the question? Can you repeat your question, sir? Do you know why Motobane Mkgenwa was released from those who were captured? I already said that he was released because he was younger among them all when they were arrested, being two, they were released both of them, because they said they were younger among those who have been captured. Who ordered that they be released? I don't know, I was outside, I only saw them when they were released from the shack and they left, both of them, I don't know who instructed that they should be released. Then how did you know the reason why they were released? I asked others that why were those released? CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, is it an issue that these young persons were released? No, not that one is not in issue, but there is an issue in eight, because there are allegations as to why they released those people. CHAIRPERSON But to the witness. There are allegations that you released those youths whom you released because they were not in the hit list, what do you say on that? I don't know about the hit list, I did not hear about the hit list within the SDU. Now after they were killed, you said there was an order that those who have axes must finish them off, is it so? That is correct, sir. Do you know of any other person amongst the applicants who participated in finishing them off? Yes, there are those I know. Who are they? Thobile Luphindo, Patrick Mokoena, Moses August and Shongwe, those are the ones I remember, I don't know as to whether there were others, but I remember these ones well. Do you know how Victor Malinmoetse happened to lose his head? I don't know, sir. CHAIRPERSON The time now is just after 11 o'clock, at an appropriate time would you indicate so that we can take the tea adjournment? Thank you, chairperson, I think I won't be long, I'll take about five to ten minutes, in fact five minutes, not more than five minutes with this witness and thereafter I think we could ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON Yes, all right. You said when you killed these people, you thought that you were killing the enemy of the community? I said so, sir. Did you hear from the community that these people are enemies of the community? The community did not say, but according to their activities I perceived them as the enemy of the community. And you are referring to their alleged criminal activities? Yes, for example in the morning when we wake up, we would find that people were burnt in their shacks. You said you thought they don't know the constitution of the ANC Youth League, did you know the constitution or the policy of the ANC, you as a member of the ANC? According to my knowledge, a member of the ANC cannot harass the community where he lives, that is why the way they were behaving themselves, they were not loyal to the constitution of the ANC, but they were doing gangster activities. Now according to the policy of the ANC, can a member of the ANC kill a supporter or a member of the ANC? No sir. Thank you, no further questions, chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions? Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I have one or two questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes, all right. Mr Nkomo, these people who were killed on the veld, do you agree they were members of the ANC Youth League? I don't believe that they were members of the ANC Youth League, because of their criminal activities. Do their criminal activities make them not to be members of the ANC Youth League? That is correct, their criminal activities shows that they were in disguise that they were in the membership of the ANC Youth League. When the ISU, Instability, I mean Internal Stability Unit, arrived at Bulelwa or Blanko's house to collect the corpse, were you present? I was next to the shack where they were kept, sir. When these youth were driven or taken to the veld, I reckon it was already broad daylight? Yes, it was daylight. Where was the members of the communities, were not other people around who perhaps tried to intervene that these people should not be taken to the veld? No, there were people who were trying to intervene, because after the Stability Unit left, all those people disbursed. When we drove them to the veld, there were no people around. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Malan, do you have any questions? MR MALAN No questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Motata? ADV MOTATA Mr Chair, I'll rather put questions after the tea break. CHAIRPERSON We'll take a tea break now, we will return at half past eleven. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS LANGA MICHAEL NKOMO (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Motata? ADV MOTATA Thank you, chairperson. Mr Nkomo, this question of gangsterism existed before the 7th of December 1993, would I be wrong if I said so? Yes, it was long in existence. ADV MOTATA And we know that prior to that, the 7th of December 1993, there were people dying and some, as you said, burnt in their shacks, isn't it so? That is correct. ADV MOTATA And prior to the 7th of December 1993, no action was taken against the gangsters? It was once tried to call the members of the so-called Youth League to discuss these activities. Then they separated themselves from the SDU, they decided to be independent, because they were told that criminal activities are not wanted in the community, they must actually protect the community. ADV MOTATA This Vips, we know that he was the leader of what you term gangsters? Yes, he was the leader. ADV MOTATA Was any action taken prior to the 7th of December 1993 against him? I remember that the executive of the SDU called them, they called the executive of the youth, they sat around the table to discuss the situation, and the report that we got was that they reported to them, but well they don't know whether they will stop with their acts of taking people's property. I remember at one stage block D called a meeting, it was only men and the youth, and they were being warned to stop taking people's properties, hijacking cars and killing people just on the basis of a suspicion. ADV MOTATA If, or rather let me put it this way, were those who were doing the hijackings identified amongst the so-called ANC Youth League? Yes, together with Vips, those are the people responsible for these criminal acts. For instance the killing of Majosi with his two cousins and the looting of his shop, they came to the executive of the SDU asking for forgiveness, they said they heard that Majosi was a member of Inkatha. ADV MOTATA After these meetings which were where they were warned and they asked for forgiveness, did these acts of criminality continue? That is correct, they continued. ADV MOTATA And no action was taken after warning was given to them, no action was taken? The action that I remember that was taken, they were told not to patrol at night anymore, they must only patrol during the day, because when they patrol at night, people die. ADV MOTATA As far as you know, did they stop patrolling at night? They stopped for a while, but during our patrol at night, we met them patrolling. ADV MOTATA And you did nothing when you met them at night patrolling? No sir, we just left them. ADV MOTATA Would you explain to us why, on the 6th of December 1993, you decided on this drastic action to now run them up, what was the reason therefor? The reason was that they killed Bulelwa and the chairman of the SDU, Comrade Blanko, these were the things they have been reprimanded for, they were told to stop such actions. ADV MOTATA And Comrade Blanko was chairman of the SDU's, hence you said, "Now enough is enough"? That is correct, he was the chairperson. ADV MOTATA Now you mentioned names Makobong, Sonte, Michael Armoed and others when you went out to look for these people. Did you know who you were going to look for? No, I did not know who we were looking for, we were going to search for those whom we would find, and anything that would trace them to the incident. I already told you about those we caught in possession of the cigarette cartons, Vusi and Tusanang, they confirmed that they were together at Blanko's house. ADV MOTATA Before this search for these people, did you ask your comrades which people you were going to look for, for instance people who killed Comrade Blanko? I did not ask. ADV MOTATA Other than those you mentioned, how many of you were in your group when you went out to look for these people? I do not remember the others. I could have given you all the names when I gave you those I have mentioned, others I do not remember. ADV MOTATA More or less what I want from you is not the other names, you told us that you don't remember their names, but more or less of how many people did your group consist of? I think we were around eight, if not nine. ADV MOTATA Those who emerged from the veld next to block C, when you captured them, did you just march them back to block F? Yes, we just caught them and then we escorted them to block F, they were not touched, we were only asking them questions and they gave us explanations that the goods in their position were taken from Blanko. ADV MOTATA And the group which consisted of more or less eight people had assortments of weapons with, and if we may mention you, you had an axe with, would that not be right? Yes, I had an axe. That is an axe I used that other side when they were killed. ADV MOTATA And your objective when you wanted to capture these people were to take them back to block F, do I understand you correctly? Yes, we were taking them to block F where they committed these crimes. ADV MOTATA Now would you tell us the difference between the two who emerged from the veld from block C and when you eventually captured Jabulani Nkmalo, why Jabulani was now injured, because that was not the aim, to assault anybody but to take them to block F? It's a mistake that Jabulani was injured, because when we arrived, others disputed the fact that he was present, they said no, he was not involved. ADV MOTATA Tusanang was captured, isn't it so? That is correct. ADV MOTATA Was he taken to the shack where the others were kept? That is correct, sir. ADV MOTATA Would you explain how he managed, because we have evidence to the effect that he ran away, how he ran away when he was kept with the others in the shack, according to you? One member of the executive committee of the SDU, Mr Michael Sonti, took him out of the shack, he said he must not be tied with the others, he must be taken before the community to give them an explanation, because everybody was pointing a finger at him, that himself and Buthelezi were actually pushing them behind. ...(tape ends) ADV MOTATA Let's get to the incident of the massacre on the 7th of December 1993. Amongst the weaponry, there were AK47's, isn't it? That is correct. ADV MOTATA And these people were shot at after having been ordered to sit down, isn't it so? That is correct. ADV MOTATA When you were ordered, for instance, to use your axe on Buthelezi senior, after being shot, was he still alive? ADV MOTATA He was still moving, it's an indication that he was still alive, he was shot at the head. ADV MOTATA Could you probably, because you admitted that you used your axe on him, where precisely on the head was he shot? I think he was shot right at the back. ADV MOTATA When they were ordered to sit down, were they facing you people, that is the SDU's who were to finish them off? They were facing the opposite direction, members of the SDU were behind them. ADV MOTATA Explain this to me, or us rather, you, at some stage, patrolled with the Youth League, that is the ANC Youth League, you formed one unit, isn't it so? That is correct. ADV MOTATA And they subsequently separated themselves from you? Yes, subsequently they separated themselves from us. ADV MOTATA There were allegations that the people who committed criminal acts were these people who had separated themselves from you? It appeared so, because even during the time when we operated together, they would be in possession of a car and we would ask them, "Guys, where did you get this car?", they won't give us a reply, but at a later stage when we investigate, you would find that this car was hijacked from someone. ADV MOTATA Did you have concrete evidence against them, that is the ANC Youth League, that they committed these acts of criminality, or you suspected them to have committed such acts? I was unemployed during that time, I saw them driving these cars, I saw them getting into tuckshops, looting people's properties, I saw them. And if action against them was intended, it was easy to identify them and take action that they do not proceed with these acts of criminality, for instance handing them over to the police, because you had identified these people? There was no co-operation with the police at that time, I hope you know the situation that was in place at that time. ADV MOTATA Let's suppose you wanted to stop these acts of criminality and you were not co-operating with the police, how did you intend to deal with the people who were committing these acts of criminality? I believe it is one of the reasons, or it is a reason why they were captured, because after they were killed, the crime stopped and the police were not involved here, all the killings and the lootings stopped. ADV MOTATA Had there, it might border on speculation, had these acts continued, whoever was captured would be killed? If these people were not killed, these actions would have carried on, they were reprimanded on several occasions, but they did not want to listen. ADV MOTATA Thank you, Mr Chair, I've got no further questions. CHAIRPERSON The people that you killed were the people that you believed were engaged in criminal activities in Moleleki section? That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So when you killed these people, you believed that you were really killing criminals? That is correct. CHAIRPERSON These individuals that you killed did not come from the hostels, right? Yes, that's right. CHAIRPERSON They were not members of the IFP, right? I do not know whether they had an association with the IFP, but they pronounced themselves members of the ANC, but we were not sure as to whether they were members of the ANC Youth League according to what they were doing. CHAIRPERSON Did you have any information which suggested that they were members of the IFP? No. CHAIRPERSON Is there anything arising, Mr Madasa? ADV MADASA Yes, Mr Chair, just on the last question that you asked. RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV MADASA When you say you did not have information if these people were associated with the IFP, are you saying you personally, or are you saying the SDU, as a unit, did not have that information? I had never received any information to that effect, I personally did not have that knowledge, I don't know whether other members of the SDU knew that they were associated with the IFP. ADV MADASA Thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No questions. NO FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED ADV MADASA Mr Chair, I call applicant No 6, Paulos Matilepula Singo. PAULOS MATILEPULA SHONGWE: (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY ADV MADASA Mr Shongwe, how old are you? MR SHONGWE 25 years, sir. ADV MADASA 25? MR SHONGWE 25. ADV MADASA How far did you go at school? MR SHONGWE Standard eight, sir. ADV MADASA What was your role in the SDU in 1993? MR SHONGWE I was an operator. ADV MADASA Were you trained in handling firearms? MR SHONGWE Yes, I was trained. ADV MADASA Where did you live in 1993 in Katlehong? MR SHONGWE I was at Moleleki, Extension 2. ADV MADASA Which block? MR SHONGWE Block D. ADV MADASA Did you participate in the killings of December 1997? MR SHONGWE Yes I did. ADV MADASA Did you participate in the capturing of people who were taken to the shack? MR SHONGWE I took part. ADV MADASA In which group were you? CHAIRPERSON Well shouldn't he tell us what role, if any, he played in the abduction? ADV MADASA Thank you, Mr Chair. What role did you play in this case? MR SHONGWE The role I played, I arrived in the morning. ADV MADASA The day of the massacre or before? MR SHONGWE On the 7th, in the morning before they were killed. I arrived there, I found Rooivark, he was getting these youths. ADV MADASA You say you arrived there, where is that, where did you arrive? MR SHONGWE At F, block F, that is block F. ADV MADASA What was going on there when you arrived? MR SHONGWE I found this person guarding this youth. We left at night because we were going to work. ADV MADASA Don't rise. Who is this person you found guarding the youth? MR SHONGWE Rooivark, Kenny. ADV MADASA Is he here amongst the applicants? MR SHONGWE Yes, he is present. ADV MADASA Armoed? MR SHONGWE Yes, that's Armoed. ADV MADASA You found him guarding the youth in the shack? MR SHONGWE Yes, that's correct. He gave me a gun, he said I should keep an eye, he was going to the toilet. ADV MADASA What kind of a gun did he give you? MR SHONGWE AK47 rifle. ADV MADASA Yes? MR SHONGWE I kept guard. Ramabele arrived with other boys, and they were also taken into the shack. ADV MADASA Yes? MR SHONGWE An order was issued out by Mr Mchebe, he was our commander of the SDU, he said because they were complaining saying the previous night ...(intervention). ADV MADASA Just slower please. What did Dondolo say? MR SHONGWE Dondolo said, in the shack they communicated and they said one of them who was present the previous night is not among them. He pointed three people, they appointed three people to go and fetch him. ADV MADASA Who is this person who implicated other, who spoke there in the shack, saying one of them was not there? MR SHONGWE These captured boys. One of them is Mtabang, Mtabang was in the shack. ADV MADASA I say the person who spoke so that you left to get more, who is that person? MR SHONGWE It's our commander, Dondolo, who gave us an instruction. ADV MADASA No, you say one of the captured implicated others so that you left to get them, I'm asking who is that person who spoke amongst the captured? MR SHONGWE It's Mtabang. ADV MADASA Whom did he mention? MR SHONGWE He said Mavuso was also present the previous night. ADV MADASA Who else did Mtabang mention? MR SHONGWE He mentioned Mavuso only. ADV MADASA Did he say what Mavuso and them had done? MR SHONGWE He said they were present when Bulelwa and Blanko were killed. ADV MADASA And then you say Dondolo told you to go and get those? MR SHONGWE That's correct. ADV MADASA Who were you going to get? MR SHONGWE Mavuso. ADV MADASA Who else? MR SHONGWE We only fetched Mavuso. ADV MADASA Did you go and get Mavuso? MR SHONGWE Yes. We left with other comrades, we were three in all. ADV MADASA Where did you go to? MR SHONGWE We went to block D. ADV MADASA Did you find Mavuso? MR SHONGWE Yes, we found him. ADV MADASA Did he have anything in his possession? MR SHONGWE No sir, he didn't have anything. ADV MADASA Did you take him back to the shack? MR SHONGWE Yes, we asked permission from his mother, and the mother agreed. ADV MADASA After he was released by his mother, did you question him on the way? MR SHONGWE Yes, on the way we asked him questions. ADV MADASA Did he tell you anything, and what was it? MR SHONGWE He told us that he was present when Blanko and Bulelwa were killed. ADV MADASA Who was with you? MR SHONGWE Myself, Lefu ...(intervention). ADV MADASA Patrick Mokoena. MR SHONGWE Yes, that's correct. ADV MADASA Who was the third person? MR SHONGWE Themba. ADV MADASA Themba Mtshali? MR SHONGWE Yes, that's correct. ADV MADASA Were you armed when you went to (indistinct)? MR SHONGWE We were not armed. ADV MADASA What did you say to Mavuso's mother? MR SHONGWE We said the commander wanted him. ADV MADASA Did you tell her why the commander wanted him? MR SHONGWE No, we did not tell her. ADV MADASA Did you know why the commander wanted him? MR SHONGWE I did not know, but I was aware that his name had been mentioned that the was present when Bulelwa was killed. Now that must have been the reason why the commander wanted him. Yes. Is there any reason why you did not disclose that to his parents? There was no reason, sir. Yes, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Just before you do, Mr Mabasa, did Mavuso's mother know who the commander was? Yes, she knew. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Madasa. Right. Did you extract any further information, besides the admission of Bulelwa and Blanko killing, did Mavuso tell you anything else? No, there was nothing else he told us. Carry on. When he arrived at the shack and he discovered that here are some of my peers ...(intervention). What did he do or say when he saw his friends? They started arguing, saying, "You pointed me out", and then the other one was saying, "No, I didn't, you identified me". Yes? He was also put into the shack and they carried on arguing among themselves. Yes? Mr Mchebe gave me a 9mm shotgun. Why did he give you? He said we should drive them to another shack, we were supposed to remove them from a scene where Bulelwa was lying. CHAIRPERSON I thought at that stage they were already in a shack? Were you going to remove them from that shack and put them into some other shack? They were at a place where Bulelwa had been shot, next to a shack, they were not yet tied up at that time. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but then were they inside a shack? They were inside a shack, but not yet tied. CHAIRPERSON So they were now going to be removed from this shack to some other shack? You are correct. This other shack where they were eventually taken into, in which block was that one? Was it the same area, (indistinct) block? It was in the same area, but next to the veld. Were you told why they were taken to that other shack? No, we were not told. Yes, then you took them to the shack next to the forest, and then what happened? Yes, we drove them to that other shack, they were walking freely, but guarded on all sides, and when we arrived there, they were put into a shack. Yes. How many were there? Myself and Mtabang and some of the comrades remained outside while the others went into the shack. How many were they as they were being driven to this other shack? I do not remember well how many they were, but they might have been 11, 8, 9 to 11. Was Bulelwa Zwane and Julia Buthelezi amongst them? CHAIRPERSON Are you asking him whether Bulelwa Zwane was amongst these persons? I know, Mr Chair, that, I know that they were not amongst, I just want it for the record, to ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON But we know that Bulelwa was dead at that stage. Thank you, Mr Chair. Right, so you arrived there at the second shack. You and Mtabang remained outside. Yes, take us from there, what happened? We asked Mtabang why they killed Blanko and Bulelwa. Yes? Mtabang told me something, he said, "We're going to steadily but surely hit you". Yes? And he told me those words before this incident, and then I said to him, "Mtabang, in other words you were right when you told me that you were going to hit us?", he said, "Yes, we were actually aiming at all the members of the SDU". Yes? Thereafter, Mr Mchebe and Mr Mbele arrived. Lepele arrived with a rope, together with some comrades from Khumalo section. They gave us that rope to tie them up. They gave me the other rope and Lefu was given the other one. Yes, what did you do with the rope? They said, "Tie up these boys". What did you do with the rope? We tied them up, because our commander, Mchebe, issued an order, we did not waste a minute. Yes? After tying them up, an order was issued once more by the commander, he said, "Take them out of the shack". Yes? He gave me an AK47 rifle. Yes? He said, "All of you will operate. Drive them to the veld". Yes? We drove them to the veld, sir. Yes? Some comrades were throwing stones. Well, I don't remember their names. Throwing stones at who? They were throwing stones to these boys who were tied up. Yes? We drove them to a veld. On arrival at the veld, an order was issued out by the commander, he said they must sit down. Yes? He shot at them four times. He then issued out an order that we must also shoot. Yes? We executed that order, we shot at them. Did you shoot specific people, or did you shoot in general? We were shooting in general. Yes? Whilst shooting, the commander ordered us to stop and those who had pangas, axes and assegaais were ordered to finish them off. Yes? They did as they were told, and thereafter they reported that they are finished their work and the commander said we must go back to the township. We left together with the commander and we headed for block F, then the commander said to us, he said Kenny must give him his gun, then Kenny said to him, "But the gun is empty, there are no bullets left", that's Rooivark, that's Armoed, sir. Yes? And it was not true, there were still bullets in the gun, and I said to him, "No, mine is still loaded". He then took my gun. Are you saying that there were still bullets in the AK47 which Kenny had? Kenny's gun was empty, Kenny's gun was empty, sir. Yes? He then took my gun, together with Mr Mvembe, called Ramabele, got into one shack. After a few minutes, we heard gunshots twice. Yes? They came out, they came to us and they said, "Let us go". We then left together with them. We met a boy called Mtabang at C. Yes? We asked him to show us where the other boys stayed. Yes? He pointed out the places until we kicked the door and we were inside, but there was nobody in. We searched, looking for what was inside. We did not find anybody at the other shacks. Is there any other person that you found during your search? Nobody, sir. Did you find any items at those shacks? No sir, we didn't find anything. Did you find any goods during the search? Goods belonging to who? I don't understand your question? Goods belonging to the owners of the shack or which goods are you referring to, sir? Did you see any goods, regardless of the owner? CHAIRPERSON What Mr Shongwe is trying to clarify from you is, what goods are you referring to? Because he wouldn't know whose goods they are, (indistinct) at the other shack? Did you find any goods which you thought did not belong to them? No. You found their goods? Yes. What goods were they? Clothing, sir, video machines, television sets, and so on. There were car engines in there. Do you know if those goods indeed belonged to them, like they bought them? I would not have the certainty, I found the goods in their shack, so it must have belonged to them. Were you suspicious as to how they acquired them? CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa, but how many times must a witness tell you that he had no idea who they belonged to, he found them at their shack and he assumed that they must have been theirs? Thank you, Mr Chair. And from there, where did you go to? We then left for block A. Yes? We then got into this other house, I just forget the boy's name who stayed there. Yes? We found his mother at home. Yes? His mother told us that he left the previous night, she has not seen him. We then released Mtabang. We also dispersed. Do you know why these people were captured and killed? I have (indistinct), I have an indication as to why were they killed. They were killed because they killed Blanko and Bulelwa. Were you told that that was the reason? I was not told, but when I arrived in the morning, many people were complaining about the killing of Bulelwa and Blanko, that is the reason maybe why they were killed. Why did you personally participate in the capturing and killing? Because of our commander's order. Was it your tradition in the SDU to question commands? There was nothing to say to the commander, if an order was issued out, you would not stand against that order, you were expected to execute that order. Were you not allowed to inquire as to the reason for the command? CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa, Mr Shongwe has just told us that once the commander had issued the order, that's the end of the matter, the order must be carried out. Could you refuse to carry out that order? No. CHAIRPERSON If you did, what would happen? you would be killed. Before these people were killed, did you know if they belonged to an organisation? I knew. Which ones? We patrolled together as SDU's. Which organisation did you know them to belong? All of us were members of the Youth League. And if you were all members of the same organisation, why were they killed? It's because they killed Bulelwa and Blanko. Did you know of any other activities they were involved in besides the issue of Blanko and Bulelwa? Yes, there are incidents. They were looting the tuckshops, they were shooting at the taxis, they were hijacking people's cars, then selling their parts. During the patrol time, they killed people, that is at night. Did you...(tape ends) It was part of my duty, I was an operator, I was protecting the community, so I perceived that as part of my work. How was the community going to be protected by that execution of your duties? They were criminals in the community. Besides them having killed Blanko and Bulelwa and also being criminals, is there any other reason, anything as that you heard against them? I have mentioned the things they did. Before that incident of killing Bulelwa and Blanko, long before that, it was on a Friday ...(intervention). Yes? And what did they do with their goods? They were removing them to the other side. Maybe it was an indication that something was to follow thereafter. Yes, besides the removal of their things, what else did they do, indicating that something was to follow? They drove their stolen cars into the ditch. After that, they just left one car. Yes? On Saturday, ten o'clock in the morning, they arrived in that bakkie, the bakkie that they did not drive into the ditch, Vips was among them. Yes? Mavuso was present and Thabo. I have forgotten the others. They arrived at us, we were four in number, they went to Comrade Sugar ...(intervention). Was Sugar with you? Yes. Yes? They said they want a gun confiscated from a certain person on Thursday, they demanded that gun. Comrade Sugar had this gun on his person. Did he give it? He did not give them the gun. What did they do when he did not give them? They demanded the gun, and they pointed at me and Lefu (?) said, "You guys are very young, we don't know why do you associate with these people". Mr Sugar asked them what they had in mind. Vips replied by saying, "Wait, wait and see". Yes? They then jumped into their car and they shot in the air. It was a warning shot. Yes? And they drove off. On Monday, the 6th, late, at about five o'clock, I was coming from work, a group of youths arrived at the rank, that was at the corner, they had containers with them and pipes. They were taking petrol from every taxi that was passing by, they said, "Just a little will do". I went to them, I also had my container, I also was joining in tapping the petrol. They said, "Man, we don't need your assistance here". Why did you join them? We were together, I was, I did not know that there was a conflict between us. Yes? Well, I went back, I did not refuse. I can't remember whether it was nine o'clock, we heard a whistle sound from F block, we then ran towards F direction, because we were members of the SDU. When we arrived there, Bulelwa was already shot. We guarded the corpse until about 12 o'clock at night, and we were told that those who were employed must go and sleep, have some rest. I left with those who went to sleep. And then the following day, is it the day that you have spent on all the capturing? Yes, that was in the morning. No, in the morning, I came back. Okay, now as a result of these killings, is there anything that you benefited personally from such action? I did not benefit anything for myself, but, well maybe the community benefited, because many things, criminal activities, stopped. I've no further questions, Mr Chair. You have outlined the activities where these young persons were implicated. Now when you captured them, how did you determine that this one participated and this one did not participate? CHAIRPERSON Are you confining yourself to the group that was captured by him? Yes, the group that was captured, chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Didn't he say they had been given names? Were you not given names of persons who had taken part in the killing of Blanko and Bulelwa? No. I learnt later that a person who killed Bulelwa is Vips. Yes, but did you go out to capture people? No. What about Mavuso? Yes, the commander said, he instructed us to go and fetch Mavuso. You said Mchebe gave you an AK47 and made an order that all of you are going to operate. Did you all operate? Yes, the one who did not operate is Vusi, others had axes. Did you have an axe? No. Now, when (Indistinct) Buthelezi, the older one, was brought in the shack, were you present then? I was not there yet. Thank you, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Sibanyoni, is there anything arising, Mr ...(intervention). MR MADASA No, Mr Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Sibanyoni? Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Shongwe, after you collected Mavuso from his mother and you were walking along with him with the other guy interrogating them, did they volunteer the information, or were you to threaten them first or torture the information out of them? We did not torture Mavuso. When we said Blanko is killed, after that he said, "Where are you taking me to?" He kept quiet for a long time. After asking that question, he tried to run away, that's one issue I forgot, he tried to run away, then we caught him. But you are saying they implicated themselves voluntarily, freely? I mean in the shacks, but on the road we did not torture him. Now, despite the fact that these youths were doing all these things you mentioned, hijacking cars, looting tuckshops, killing people and threatening you that they will hit you slowly but surely, no drastic steps were taken against them. Why? We did not take any drastic steps because this thing was spoken in the meeting, that we should bring so that we'll be able to negotiate until the hit. Now, according to you, had they not killed Bulelwa and Blanko, would they have been killed? No, sir. In other words, what sparked or what caused, or the reason for their killing was specifically the killing of Bulelwa and Blanko? Yes, that is true. Do you agree with the statement that the relatives, in other words the relatives of the victims, their parents and other relatives, are also part of the community of Moleleki? Yes, they are part of Moleleki community, some of them are not part of the Moleleki community. Now if I'm saying to you, those parents and relatives did not benefit anything from the killing of these youth, what would be your reaction to that? I don't dispute that. Thank you, no further questions, Mr Chair-person. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan? Would you tell us, when this incident took place when you found them with the containers at the taxis collecting a litre petrol from each taxi? It was around five to six. How long was this before the incident where they were killed? It's a day before they were killed. It was on the day of Bulelwa's death? Yes. And you participated with them, you had your container, if I heard you correctly, and you also wanted to collect petrol? Yes sir. Would that not be a criminal activity? It would be a criminal activity, but there was nothing I could do, because if you sit on the fence, you'd be an informer. Did I not hear you correctly saying that they did not want you to help and that you then left? Yes. And did I hear you correctly saying that you were not aware of any differences or difficulties with them at that stage? The way I observed, I did not see, it started, that incident started to give me a new impression, when they said they don't want me there, then it shows that I was not wanted, so I should put myself aside from them. But you were not aware of any conflict before then? I was not in conflict with them. When did you become an operator? I began to be an operator in 1992 in June, if I remember well. Where was it, was it in Moleleki, in Moleleki section? That is correct. Were you then part of the Youth League? That is correct. At that stage, Vips and the others who were killed were also part of the Youth League? Yes, they were part of the ANC Youth League at the time when I was with them. When did they separate themselves from the SDU? They withdrew at the time when they knew SDU was just about to be formed in block F. Are you aware of the allegation, or the statement that they were, the Youth League was patrolling A to D, blocks A to D? I don't know that, sir. Did you hear that evidence given by Mr Armoed? Was it Armoed? Ja. Yes, I heard. I would explain this way, that information was heard, but I knew that we were one thing with them, but on that day when I was chased out, I could verify that way I'm not working together with them. And yet the day before their death, you didn't know of any conflict. Can you explain that? May you please repeat your question, sir? The day before their death, you gave evidence that you were not aware of any conflict between the SDU and the Youth League people? That is correct, I did not know. Sorry, could you just repeat? That is correct, I did not know that there is a conflict, but the day when I was chased to help them tap petrol from the taxis, I started to know. And if I hear you correctly, that was the day before they were killed? Yes, that is the day before they were killed. When was this meeting in F block where they formed the new SDU? I would tell a lie, I don't know, but I learnt from rumours. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Motata? Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Shongwe, just one question, when the SDU's were formed, it's because there were criminal activities against the community in Katlehong. Am I understanding the picture correctly? The SDU's were formed against Inkatha and gangsterism, and the boers when they were coming to attack, because boers were our enemies. Now we have evidence that you had no working relationship with the police. Is my understanding correct as well? That is correct. Now, prior to the 7th of December 1993, if you had captured somebody involved in these untoward actions, what would happen to that person, because you wouldn't take him to the police, for instance? You mean in regard to the killing of Blanko and Bulelwa, what kind of incidents are you referring to, or activities? Because you were not co-operating with the police, say for instance you catch someone, you do not take that person to the police? Yes. Now what would have happened to that person? We had a disciplinary procedure. In many instances, if you kill, you will be killed, if you kill, you'll be killed. Thank you, Mr Chair, I've got no further questions. CHAIRPERSON The persons that you were called upon to go and look for, did you consider these persons to be dangerous? Which people? CHAIRPERSON The people that you were called upon go go and capture. It was not clear that they were dangerous, because the commander just said to go and fetch the person, and at first one person, he did not give me a gun, he just said, "Go and fetch this kind of a person", then we went. CHAIRPERSON As I understand your evidence, the people that were killed were perceived as criminals, is that right? That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you also perceive them as criminals? Yes, I regarded them as criminals, because what they did, the community did not appreciate, they were harassing the community which we were living with. CHAIRPERSON But as far as you were concerned, you had no problem with them? I don't understand, sir, problem, what problem are you talking about? CHAIRPERSON Well, you told us that you wanted to take part in siphoning petrol from taxi motor vehicles. Yes, I told you that. CHAIRPERSON And how long was this before the 7th of December? It was on the 6th, late on that day. CHAIRPERSON So, as late as the 6th of December 1993, you wanted to associate yourself with persons that you perceived to be criminals? Yes, chairperson, if something was done, we would all take part, not even one would stand aside. If you stood aside, you would be regarded as an informer, and the results thereof would be to be killed. CHAIRPERSON If you had been present when they killed Bulelwa, would you have killed her? Because I would be part of them, yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Is there anything arising, Mr Madasa? Yes, Mr Chair. When you say you did not have a problem with the ANC Youth League, what do you mean by that, what do you mean by problem? I personally was not in conflict with them, that is what I meant. But the SDU to which you belonged, did they have a problem with them? I would say the SDU had problems with them, because it tried to call them to a meeting for a long time to resolve the issues, but they refused until the incident happened, the incident that we are gathered here for. Were you permitted by SDU to associate yourself with the activities of the ANC Youth League? Because I was a member of the ANC Youth League, they were reprimanding me, saying, "Man, aren't you aware of their acts, one day we will catch you with them and then you're going to be assaulted together with them", and then I tried to withdraw myself from many criminal activities, most of the time I would be with these other men, because they were not involved in criminal acts, they did not want any criminal act. You get into a person's house, you come out with a glass, just an ordinary glass, it was a big mistake to them. So you, you belonged to both organisations, the ANC Youth League and the SDU at the same time? We were one thing, we were one thing, sir. After that (indistinct), did you remain as a Youth League member? I remained behind with the SDU. After they had separated themselves with the SDU, would you have participated in their activities? If I was part of them, yes I would take part if I was part of them. I say after the ANC Youth League had separated itself from the SDU, you say you remained with the SDU, is that so? Yes, that's correct. Now I'm asking you, would you have participated in the activities of the Youth League? CHAIRPERSON But he indeed attempted ...(intervention). I would not take part, sir, because what they did was evident enough that they were harassing the community. Why did you associate yourself with them and remain with the SDU? I realised that their actions were not acceptable. Now at times the boers were chasing after them, and I didn't like that. During the shootout, one would be in a position to be shot at. Now I withdrew from them. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? Thanks, chair. I take it that there was a branch executive of the ANC Youth League at Moleleki, is that not correct? Yes, there was. Did you ever report these activities to the executive of the ANC Youth League in Moleleki? Which activities? The activities, these activities which are the criminal activities of the people whom you said were ANC Youth League, did you report those activities to the leadership of the ANC Youth League in Moleleki, you as a member of the ANC Youth League? No sir, I did not report, you know, and it was during that time of killing, they would ask and inquire who reported, and then if it was discovered that I did, I would have been killed. Thank you, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Very well, thank you, Mr Shongwe, you may return to your seat. WITNESS EXCUSED ADV MADASA Mr Chair, is this a time convenient for adjournment for lunch? CHAIRPERSON Sorry, we will take the lunch adjournment and come back at two o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Madasa? CHAIRPERSON No 8. Rodrick Singo. TSEKIMYANA RODRICK SINGO (sworn states) Mr Singo, how old are you? I'm 29 years old. How far did you go at school? I did standard six, but I did not pass that standard. In the SDU, what rank did you hold? I was an ordinary member within the SDU. No, what I'm asking, were you an operator or a patroller? I was not an operator, I was just patrolling. Okay. In 1993, where were you living? The beginning of 1993, I was staying at Khumalo Section. In December 1993, where were you living? In December, I was staying here at Moleleki Section, sir. Which block? I was staying at block E. Now, did you take part in the capturing and killing of the victims? I took part, sir. Let's start with the capturing first, is there any person that you captured, you personally, to take that person to the shack? No sir, there's no particular person. Did you accompany anybody to capture people in order to take them to the shack? No sir. Were you present when the people were taken from the shack that was near the forest to the open field to be killed? Yes sir, I was present. At what stage did you join the killing? May you please repeat your question? At what stage did you join the other members of the SDU to take those people to there for killing? I joined them in the morning. The day the victims were killed? That is correct, sir. On that particular morning, where did you go, where were they when you joined them? It was like this, in the morning when I wake up going to work, I passed through Blanko's place, then I found people assembled there, I found that Blanko's shack has been burned, many people were crowding the area. When I entered in, I found Blanko sitting on the chair, burnt to death. That is where I joined. Now did you subsequently joined the group of the SDU members who were removing the victims to the open field? From there, I learnt that there is another person who has been killed. When I arrived at block F, I found that it was Bulelwa. Did you join the people who were guarding the victims who were put in the shack? Yes, I was one of them, sir. Were you invited to join? I was standing next to the door of that shack. What did you do personally to those people? There's nothing I did, I was standing there. Were you armed? Sorry, I didn't hear, were you armed? I had a sjambok. When those people were removed from the shack to the field, were you still there? Yes sir, I was still present. What did you do, did you go with the people who were taking them to the open field? Yes sir, I accompanied that group. How did you accompany them? When we took them there, some of them I beat them with that sjambok. Were you escorting these people? Yes sir. Were you told to do so? Do you mean in which way we were told, in which way and what? Did anybody give you a command to escort those people to the open field? As we were there, we were given an instruction that we should go with them. Who gave the instruction? That's Commander Mchebe. Did he tell you what you were going to do with them? ...(TAPE ENDS) At the spot where they were killed, did you do anything to them? When we arrived in the veld, they were instructed to sit down. They were tied with rope. Did you kill any one of them, you? No sir, no-one. Were you present when they were killed? Yes, Your Honour, I was present when they were killed. Why did you not kill? I played a role because I was present when they were killed, but in the actual killing, I did not take part. Did you hear the order by Dondola that they should be killed? I heard when he said they should be killed. So why did you not comply with your order? I associated myself with the order, because if I did not associate myself with that order, I could have left. Now why did you associate yourself with the killing of these people? I associated myself with the killing because of what they did, yes because of what they did. Did you know which political organisation they belonged, or organisation? CHAIRPERSON Just before you reply, you say you associated yourself with the killing because of what they did? That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And I take it you're referring to the deceased? To what they did to Bulelwa and Blanko, because I learnt that they are responsible for the killing of Blanko and Bulelwa. CHAIRPERSON You associated yourself with their killing because they had killed Bulelwa and Blanko? That is correct, sir. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Did you know to which organisation they belonged, that is the victims? I learnt that they were members of the ANC Youth League, who killed Bulelwa and Blanko. What was your political objective in killing them, in participating in their killing? In other words I do not understand to explain what, as to whether my role in politics. CHAIRPERSON Sir, can you repeat your question, I don't understand what you mean by the political objective? What did you want to achieve by complying with Dondola's order, what did you want to achieve? I expected nothing, sir, when I carried out Dondola's order. Why did you comply with his order? I complied to his order because he was a commander, he said these people have killed, they must be killed too. Did you know any of those people, the victims? I did not know those people. Do you know why they were killed? Yes, as I have already said, that they were killed because they killed Bulelwa and Blanko. Is there anything that you benefited from killing them? No sir. What was, in your understanding, what was the role of the SDU towards the community of Moleleki? It was supposed to protect the community. Was that killing part of that duty? As they killed, I knew that they would continue killing. As they killed Blanko, they would continue to kill each and every member of SDU, as they pledged to do so, that's the information I received. Did you believe that therefore that killing was part of the duty of the SDU to protect the community? Yes, I understood it that way, that that killing was to protect myself and to protect the community, as I've explained that when they were interrogated, they said they were instructed to kill every member of the SDU's, they were following a list. As Blanko was the chairperson of SDU. CHAIRPERSON Bulelwa was not a member of the SDU, was she? Bulelwa was not a member of the SDU. CHAIRPERSON And from your understanding, they wanted to kill the members of the SDU? Yes, it was like that, that they were going to kill all members of the SDU's, as they were following a list, as instructed. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Are you aware of the rumour that Bulelwa was killed by the SDU? I did not hear that rumour that Bulelwa was killed by SDU, I know that, I heard that Bulelwa was killed by the youth, together with Blanko as they were killed. CHAIRPERSON Do you know why the Youth League would have wanted to kill Bulelwa if she's not a member of the SDU and if they had a list of SDU members that they wanted to kill? I would not know, sir. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Now, let's assume that the SDU members were indeed killed by these youths as they threatened. Now, my question is, would that act have left the community unprotected? Yes, Your Honour, because as we were protecting the community. I have no further questions, Mr Chairman. You say Mchebe instructed that they be taken to the veld and did not explain what to be done about them in the veld, is that what you said? He said they should be killed. So when you were sjambokking them on the way to the veld, you were aware that they were going to be killed? At that time when I was sjambokking them, I was not aware that they were going to be killed, I thought they were going to be beaten, but he said they should be killed. When exactly did he say they should be killed, at the veld or when you were on the way to the veld? When we were at the shack, when they were locked in the shack, but I didn't hear that, when we left I didn't hear that instruction that they were going to be killed, I only learnt that from the scene. Did he repeat the instructions on the scene, that they must be killed now, is that what you're saying? When we arrived at the veld, he shot, then operators who were armed followed with the shooting. Now did you get any instruction from Mchebe to kill them? CHAIRPERSON I thought Mchebe issued an order that these people must be killed? Yes, chairperson, I want to find out from him if he did get the instruction, because he says in his evidence that he was not aware that Mchebe said they must be killed, that's what I want ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON At what stage, at what stage, I mean is it an issue that Mchebe issued an order that these individuals be killed, because the evidence we've heard so far is that Mchebe issued an order that these people must be killed? Thank you, chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is it an issue? I thought, chairperson, it is an issue insofar as he is concerned, because he himself did not get an instruction to kill. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Ask him then. Did you, as a person, get instructions from Mchebe to kill? He gave me an order, because we were many, I saw people going out and they were saying, "Mchebe said these people should be killed". He gave me that order even if I did not hear that order, but he was instructing each and every member of the SDU. So you did not kill anyone, even though you heard the instruction to kill? No sir, I did not kill a person. Thank you, no further questions. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV MADASA CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni? Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Singo, where did you get the sjambok from? I don't know from whom I took it from, because I was the person who was going to work, I joined them at Blanko's place, I took it from a certain person, because many people were having different kinds of, assortments of arms, so I took, I took that sjambok from somebody. Were you specifically instructed to beat, to hit these youth, or you only used your discretion as to what contribution you should make? I hit somebody when he was brought, even if I don't know his name, that they were responsible for Blanko's murder. Now, during the actual killing at the veld, is there anything whatsoever which you did? During the killing, I did not do anything, as I've already explained that I had only a sjambok. When they were tied, did you take any part in tying them? No sir, I did not take part. How were they tied, were they tied all of them together or in certain groups? They were tied with one rope. These youths allegedly, or they were suspected of having killed some people at night, and specifically they were suspected of having killed Majosi, yet they were never killed at that stage, it's only when they killed Blanko and Bulelwa that they were killed, and to me it appears as if it was either retaliation or revenge on the part of the SDU who were now saying they've killed another member of the SDU and Bulelwa, who was supportive of the SDU. What would be your reaction to that? During the death of Mr Majosi, I know nothing because I was staying at Khumalo Section, I came later, then I learned from rumours that Mr Majosi was killed by, was killed together with his two cousins. The crux of my question is, had these youths continued to hijack, to loot and kill other people and not members of the SDU, they would not be killed. What is your response to that? With my own observation, I would say that they were killed because they killed Comrade Blanko and Comrade Bulelwa, as they continued killing. When there were hijackings, lootings, were members of the community able to say the perpetrators are members of the ANC Youth League, or were they just saying the perpetrators were members of the SDU, could the community make any distinction between ANC Youth League members and SDU members? The committee knew. I remember one day when the meeting was called to talk about the lootings and the hijackings, things like that, it was found out that where we met there was a car which has been left in a ditch, and the other issues that in the meeting a certain van came with a group of youth driven by Vips. Now what was the allegation from the community? Was the allegation that the people who are causing trouble are members of the ANC Youth League or are members of the SDU? The community tried to reprimand them as they were there in the meeting, that people should disassociate themselves with criminality, they knew that it was the Youth League. Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan? MR MALAN No questions, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata? ADV MOTATA I've got no questions, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa, is there any re-examination? ADV MADASA No re-examination. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV MADASA CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No questions. NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much, Mr Singo, you may return to your seat. Yes, Mr Madasa? WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Is that Norman Solly Mashinini? No, I'm sorry, No 9, Solly Mashinini. NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI (sworn states) Mr Mashinini, how old are you? 24. How far did you go at school? Five. In 1993, did you live at Moleleki? Yes, I arrived in Moleleki in January. Were you working in December 1993? No. In the SDU were you an ordinary patroller or an operator? CHAIRPERSON Were you a member of the SDU? Patrolling. Yes. Now, did you participate in the capturing of the victims that we are talking about? Yes. In which group were you? Who was with you when you captured people? Some did not apply, one with whom I was is Sonti. Right. Who did you capture? I don't know their names. Did you participate in the capturing of all the victims? Yes, that is correct. Who told you ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON Wait a minute. More than six people were kidnapped and put in a shack. Do you understand that? Yes. CHAIRPERSON Are you telling us that you took part in the kidnapping of each and every victim who was kidnapped and put into a shack? Yes. Were you told to do so, to capture these people and put them in the shack, and by whom? Sugar gave us those instructions. Do you know why those people were captured and put in the shack? Sugar said or alleged that they killed Blanko and Bulelwa. Were you armed when you captured them? With what? Were you armed with what? I was carrying a stick with a spear somewhere in between. Were you present when they were taken to the open field? No. At what stage did you leave? Did you leave before they were taken away or when they were taken away? I left before they were taken to the veld. Before you left, were they all there, those who were subsequently killed? Yes, they were all there in the shack. Who was there amongst them? I don't know their names. Why did you leave and not go to the open field? I had a problem that I had reported to Comrade Dondolo and Comrade Kenny, a domestic problem, and they therefore released me. What was your objective of capturing those people? It is because they had killed Blanko and Bulelwa. When you participated, did you do so as - oh, okay. Sorry, Mr Chair, I withdraw that question. Was your act of capturing those people related with your work in the SDU, to protect the community? Yes, that is correct. How? We were trying to protect the community. How was the community going to be protected by capturing those people? The community would be protected because they had suffered a great deal of loss during their presence. Did you benefit anything personally from capturing those people? No. I have no further questions, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Thank you, sir, I have no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni? MR SIBANYONI Thank you, no questions, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan? MR MALAN Just one question, you say, "The community would be protected because they suffered a great deal of loss during their presence". Does that mean that you knew that they would be killed, did you know that they would be killed? Would you please repeat the question? MR MALAN Sorry, you gave evidence that, "The community would be protected because the community suffered a great deal of loss during their presence", I think these were your exact words, as translated. Does that mean that you, at the time, knew that they would be removed from the community, that they would be killed? No, I did not know. MR MALAN How would you contract then their presence with what I assume is their absence? Would you please repeat your question? Let me repeat the original question. How would the community have been protected by these acts? The community would be protected. Can you tell us how? Would you please repeat? Why would the community have been protected by your capturing these people? The community would be protected because they would no longer be there. Where would they have been? Because they were killed. Was this part of your objective? No. No further questions. CHAIRPERSON We've heard of a certain Mr Mashinini who at some point chaired a meeting. Did you chair any meeting of the SDU's? I don't understand? CHAIRPERSON The Mashinini about whom we spoke, we speak, it is alleged he once chaired a meeting. Is there any other Mashinini who was a member of the SDU apart from yourself? No, it looks like I'm the only Mashinini. ADV MADASA Sorry, Mr Chair, that Mashinini, Oscar Motlokwa referred to, he said he was a community member. CHAIRPERSON Oh. Okay, so this is not, this is not Mashinini now, (indistinct). Is there anything arising? ADV MADASA Nothing, Mr Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV MADASA NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Very well. Thank you, Mr Mashinini, you may go back to your seat. Yes, Mr Madasa? WITNESS EXCUSED Mr Chair, I call Patrick Lefu Mokoena, No 10. LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA (sworn states) Mr Mokoena, how old are you? I am 25 years old. How far did you go at school? I did standard seven. In 1993, in December, were you working? I was not working. Schooling? No, I left school. Did you live in Moleleki in December '93? Yes, I stayed in Moleleki. Where? Moleleki, Extension 2, Block A. In the SDU, were you an operator or an ordinary member? I was a patrolling member. During the killings that time, did you participate in capturing anybody? Yes, I took part. Whom did you capture? On the night of that same day, I went to bed, I woke up in the morning and I met, I went to Mr Blanko's house. When we arrived at Blanko's place, the shack had already been burnt. Did you meet with other SDU members at Blanko's place? Yes, I met them, sir, but some had already left to look for the perpetrators. Then I passed on to block F and I discovered that Bulelwa had been shot and then she was already dead. After you had discovered Bulelwa's death, did you help in getting people who were involved? We guarded Bulelwa's body, waiting for the Red Cross car, two boys approached, they were brought to us. Do you know the names of those boys? I do not know the other one, I know only one. Who was that? His name is (Indistinct) Motsi(?), he was being chased by Palo. Yes? Palo was running after him, hitting him. We then, I then grabbed him and then I said Palang must take him to the shack, and then he took him right away. Who is Palang? Palang Kosa of Moleleki Extension 2, he was a member of the SDU. He is still around in Moleleki. Yes? When Palang took him to the shack, we were left behind and the commander, Dondolo Mchebe, arrived. CHAIRPERSON How many persons were taken to the shack? I thought two boys came to where you were? I was close to the community, to the members of the community, just on the road, they came from a certain direction, I think he called them up in the veld towards block F direction. CHAIRPERSON I understand that, but were these two boys then taken to the shack, both of them? Yes, he took both of them to a shack. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Comrade Dondolo Mchebe arrived and he asked them their names. I was outside. (Indistinct) revealed that Mavuso went to his home to wake him up, in other words he was at home sleeping, he was telling all this to Comrade Mchebe Dondolo. Comrade Shongwe has already alluded to the fact that Mavuso also revealed. Yes. We were then told to fetch Mtabang, myself, Shongwe and Comrade Themba. Did you fetch them? Yes sir. Themba you're referring to, would that be Themba Christopher Mtshali? Yes. What did you do with him when you found him, Mtabang? After you found Mtabang, what did you do with him? No sir, I said the comrades that I caught up with, I don't know who's (Indistinct), but he was among the people who...(tape ends) ...Mtabang was already captured, he actually revealed the name of this other person. Mavuso? Yes, he identified Mavuso. Okay. Myself, Shongwe, we went to fetch Mavuso from home with Themba. Did you find Mavuso? Yes, we found him. What did you do with him? We found his mother at home, his mother, his father and his sister. We requested permission to go, to leave with Mavuso, we said the commander, Mchebe Dondolo, wanted to see him. Yes? I am the person who was holding him and the others were coming behind, we took him to that shack. Yes? We put him inside the shack and then I came down to wait there. That will be all. Did you go to the place where they were killed? Yes, I did go to the place where they were killed, I was there. Tell us about your involvement in that? Before we go to the veld, Lepele Shia, one of our comrades, he came with a rope and then he gave it to us, so that we tied them up. We did just that. Yes? After tying them up, I then went outside to sit. Then Comrade Shia was also outside leaning against the pole. We were then told that a commander issued out an order that they be killed. Who told you that? I heard from Lepele Shia, he did not go down with us, he was left behind, because I also left after quite some time of their departure, it might have been a distance from here to that door. Did Shia tell you where the order came from? He told me that the commander issued out an order. Oh. Did he tell you who that commander was? Yes, he told me, Mchebe Dondolo. Did you then escort the people to the open field? Sir, I already told you that I was not close to them, I was far behind them and they were walking ahead of me. So you followed? Yes, I followed. I followed them. Yes, continue, you followed them, then what happened? I saw Comrade Mchebe shooting, and thereafter AK47 rifles were also used. Were you armed? Yes. With what? I had a spear. Because I usually had a knobkierie, I don't remember where did I get hold of this spear. Did you kill anybody? Yes, chair, after they were shot with guns, Comrade Mchebe said, "Lefu, Mavuso is not dead, stab him", and then I executed that order, I just stabbed him once. Did he die? He was already shot when I stabbed him, I stabbed him just once and then I pulled out the spear and then I left. I don't know whether it was my stabbing or the bullets that he had already received that killed him. Is there any other person that you attached at the scene? No sir, nobody else, because I was so scared, I stabbed quickly because I was so afraid, and then I immediately left. These people who you killed, do you know them? I've already said that I did not even know Motsi, I knew them thereafter, and then I happened to know Mavuso, but the rest I did not know, and I only knew, I knew Vips, who was taken and killed in Khumalo. Were you told to which organisation those people belonged? Yes, I was told. When I arrived in 1992, in September, when I arrived in Moleleki, the SDU was working with the SDU, they were together. No, we know that history, but what I'm asking is, the victims, did you know if they were members of the ANC Youth League? Yes, I knew, but not all of them, some of them were members of the ANC. Sorry, can you come again, some of them were members of what? ANC Youth League, and some of them were members of the PAC, they were mixing. Do you know why they were killed? Yes. Why? It's because of the deceased No 1's death, I think it's (indistinct) Bulelwa, and Mr Comrade Blanko. To your knowledge, is there any other reason why they were killed? Members of the ANC Youth League you are referring to, sir, which members are you referring to now? The whole (indistinct). Yes sir. Why? There were side talks from them when they were reprimanded about their lootings in the spaza shops. So were they also killed for their criminal involvements, is that what you're saying? That is not a big reason, they took that step because they were reprimanded, members of the Self Defence Unit reprimanded them, warned them, now what they did in turn was to kill Mr Blanko and Bulelwa, because they were being reprimanded of the activities in the township. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but I think what you are being asked is whether, are you aware of any other reason why they were killed, apart from the fact that they killed Bulelwa and Blanko? I only know of that reason, sir, I don't have any other. All right, listen, was their killing connected with the SDU protecting the community? Yes sir. Was it connected? The SDU protected the community and the situation was violent during that time, IFP and other organisations were attacking. At times the Stability was attacking, coming to take people by force from the township, because when they entered the township they entered with gun shooting. So how was the killing of those people a protective measure for the community? The killing of the members of the Youth League? Yes. It would protect the community because the community was complaining, they complained about the hijackings, the spaza shops were broken in. Did you benefit anything from the killings, personally? I did not benefit anything, sir, I was only protecting the community. No further questions, Mr Chair. Amongst the people who were killed on the 7th of December 1993, whom did you know to be a member of the PAC? I did not know all of them, sir. The slogans, or rather the clothing that they put on was written PAC/ANC, and they were together during their rallies at Hunters Field. Whom did you see wearing a T shirt belonging to the PAC amongst those who were killed? I did not specifically look, because I was part of them when we go to the rallies, I cannot tell their by names. No further questions, thank you, sir. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Malan? In your evidence, Mr Mokoena, you said that when you went to round up, who was the person, Mavuso, you asked permission from his mother and sister and you said that the commander wanted to see them. Did they say anything? I was listening with my two ears, sir, they asked, "Where are you taking him to?", and their reply was, "Comrade Dondolo Mchebe wants him, he wants to know something from him". Did they ask you what it was about? Can you repeat yourself, Chairperson? Did they not want to know why Comrade Dondolo wanted to see them? They wanted to know, sir, but we replied by saying he wants to ask them questions, but we didn't tell them the nature of the questions. Did they ask about the nature of the questions? They asked me, sir, and I told them that I do not know what kind of a question he's going to ask him, because we were only ordered to fetch him. Did he, at that stage, ask any questions, this is Mavuso now? On our way he was talking to Themba and Shongwe, I only held him, he was talking to them. Did he want to know why you were taking him, did you hear what all the talking was about? They were facing each other and I did not hear what they said. No further questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata? Thank you, chairperson. Mr Mokoena, you said sometimes you used to attend the rallies with them at Hunters Field. Did I hear you correctly? You heard perfectly well, sir. Now when you attended these rallies, under which umbrella were you attending, SDU, ANC Youth League or PAC, under which umbrella were you attending? I cannot tell specifically in which year did we go to the rally, but I think Mandela was present at that rally. Did you belong to the ANC Youth League? I did not catch your question, sir? I say you personally, did you belong to the ANC Youth League? No, I was a member of the Self Defence Unit. Thank you, chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV MADASA NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Mr Mokoena, you may return to your seat. Yes, Mr Madasa? Chairperson, before I go back to my seat, I want to ask for forgiveness from the parents of those who I killed. CHAIRPERSON Well, do you know their parents? Yes, you say you want forgiveness from the parents of the persons? I'm saying the parent to Mavuso and the parents of (Indistinct) Motsi, I really ask for their forgiveness, but I did not take part in the assault of Motsi. I'm asking for forgiveness from Mrs Mavuso. CHAIRPERSON I think after this you may have the opportunity to go and speak to Mrs Mavuso if she's here. Is there anything further you want to say? Sir, I'm not only speaking on my behalf, I'm speaking on behalf of all the members of the Self Defence Unit, all the mothers who are gathered here today, please forgive us, I'm not saying forgive me, forgive us all. CHAIRPERSON We understand that you are asking for forgiveness. Are you doing so because you recognise that what you did was wrong? That is correct, My Lord, I'm asking for forgiveness because I realised that what I did was wrong. Mr Mokoena, you said you are not only asking for forgiveness for yourself only, but for your co-applicants and co-members of the SDU, is that right? Chairperson, I have already said I am not only asking for forgiveness for myself, as the SDU's we ask forgiveness for what we did. We had reasons. Now as you are seated there, Mr Mokoena, do you have mandate from your comrades that you should speak on their behalf and ask for forgiveness from families of the victims? They did not mandate me, I am doing it out of my person. Have you, as members of the SDU, either before this week or during the course of this week, discussed this and shown, or any member shown remorse of the wrong deeds you perpetrated? That is correct, My Lord. And would we be understanding you to say, whilst you ask for forgiveness on behalf of everybody, your deductions are that whilst discussing this, other members of the SDU showed remorse? Yes, because we are here, sir, to ask for forgiveness, to ask for amnesty. As we are seated here, we are not aware of the individual members of the families, but we do have a list of the next of kin, when you say they must forgive you, are you saying you want to approach them before you take your seat, to ask for that forgiveness, or are you merely saying it from where you are seated, that you ask for forgiveness? I would like to go to them, sir. CHAIRPERSON Yes, the committee will take note of the statement that you have made and the forgiveness that you have asked for. I would suggest that after the committee has risen this afternoon, you approach your counsel and discuss the matter with him. Do you understand that? Yes sir. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Thank you, sir. Is there anything arising? No, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr Mokoena, you may return to your seat. Yes, Mr Madasa? WITNESS EXCUSED THOBILE PHILLIMON LUPHINDO (sworn states) How old are you? I'm 35. How far did you go in school? Standard three, I went up to standard three, sir. In December 1993, did you stay at Moleleki? Yes, that is correct. Which extension and block? Block D, Extension 2. Right, in the SDU were you an operator or an ordinary patrol? I used to patrol. Did you capture any people in connection with the killings of December 1993? No, I did not capture anyone. Were you present when the victims were put in the shack? I was absent. Did you go to Blanko's place when it was burning? Yes, there was a whistle that was blown, I got up and went there, there were a whole lot of comrades trying to put out the fire. I also started helping. After the fire was extinguished, when the other comrades look for Blanko's assailants, did you go with any group to look for them? I was left behind where the deceased was. From Blanko's place, did you go anywhere? No, I never left, sir. You remained at Blanko's place until when? We stayed there with other people until morning. The Internal Stability Unit came and fetched the body. After they had taken the body, we heard that some people had been captured and were in a shack. I then also left with the others to check those comrades that were found. I found them there, tied up in a rope together. Where were they at that stage? They were in a shack, at Block F. And from that shack, where did you go? We were waiting for a decision that was to be taken by a commander who had gone to Zone 5, Khumaville(?). When the commander came back, Mchebe Dondolo, he gave us an order that Comrade Bulelwa was killed by Vips and Tusanang, therefore they must also go into the forest to be killed. Did Dondolo mention Blanko? Please repeat your question, sir? Did Dondola mention Blanko? He spoke of the late Bulelwa and Blanko. Thank you, Mr Chair. Did you carry out the order? CHAIRPERSON What happened after that? After the order had been given out, they were escorted, yes I was present. Yes? CHAIRPERSON Wait, there's no interpretation, is there ...(intervention). Would you just hold it, Mr Luphindo, we're just clearing up something please, just hold on for a second. INTERPRETER The witness may proceed, thank you. Yes. Mr Luphindo, would you go back again to the stage when you say you were part of the persons who escorted them to the field, all right? The order had already been given out from Comrade Mchebe Dondolo that they should be taken to the forest. I also had a stick, I was pushing them from behind, I used the stick. When we got to the forest, Commander Mchebe Dondolo said that they must sit down. He's the one who was carrying a shot nine(?) rifle, he shot four times. The other comrades had AK47's. He said that they must continue and finish the job up, they must be killed, he said, because they had also killed. They were shot. After they were shot, some of them were still moving a bit. The commander, Mchebe Dondolo, gave out yet another order, saying that some of them are still moving, alive. Those that were carrying axes and spears, they were ordered to finish off the job. The role that I played was to hit one of them on the head with a stick that I was carrying, after they had been shot. Yes? After we finished the job that we were ordered by our commander, we left, we went back to the township. When we got to block F, Commander Dondolo and Comrade Mgetse, they went to Mr Buthelezi's house. We heard two gunshots, we were left behind standing outside when we heard these shots. Yes? After that, from block F, we went to block C. When we got to block C, we came across a young boy called Mtebeleng. We took him, he was actually taken by the commander. Yes? We went looking for the shack where he stayed, or where the young men stayed. We did not find them. We then turned, or turned back to our own places. Why did you participate in the killing? I was given an order by my commander. There is nothing else I could do, I had to obey the order. Did you know or were you told what they had done? CHAIRPERSON I thought he said they'd killed Bulelwa and Blanko. Thank you, Mr Chair. Was their killing connected with the duty of the SDU to protect the community? Please repeat your question, sir? Was their killing connected with the SDU work of protecting the community? No sir. Was the killing connected with the protection of the community, that's my question? That is correct, sir. How? Did you personally benefit anything from killing them? No. Mr Luphindo, there is an information from the side of the families of the deceased persons that after they were shot at, the families were denied an opportunity to go take the bodies of the deceased persons by the group who killed them. Do you know anything about that? No, I know nothing about that. Thank you, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni? Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Luphindo, you said you hit one on the head with a stick. Do you know which one did you hit? Mr Chairperson, I had recently arrived in that area, I did not just hit one person in the head, there was a few of them lying on the ground. We understand that you were executing an order from a commander. Now looking back to what happened, do you regret the deeds? Yes, Mr Chairperson, I regret and feel remorse, but because they also killed, I felt even more pain. MR MALAN No questions, thank you, chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata. I wouldn't know, Mr Chairperson, if I had to say it in terms of metres, but from where I'm sitting, the distance is from here to the wall. Did you know that the commander and the other person were going to Mr Buthelezi's shack? I saw them going there, Mr Chairperson. How do you reconcile that, Mr Luphindo, because you said you were not long in that area and you did not know these people, how did you know that shack where the commander and the other person went to, that belonged to Buthelezi? I knew the elderly people, it's their children that I did not know by name. On your way, was it discussed that "we are now proceeding to Mr Buthelezi's house"? Correct, sir. Now you said to us earlier that you hit, there were several people on the ground, you did not know these people, but did you know Mr Buthelezi who was also one of the people shot dead? I knew Mr Buthelezi, sir. However, I never touched him. It is the children that I hit on the head. Thank you, chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV MADASA NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Luphindo, thank you, you may return to your seat. Yes, Mr Madasa? WITNESS EXCUSED Moshe August. JOSEPH MOSHE AUGUST (sworn states) Moshe, how old are you? I'm 32 years. Went as far as standard six. ...Moleleki in 1993, December? I arrived in Moleleki in May 1993. And where did you move from? I was from Khumalo section. Where did you stay? I left Khumalo where I was residing, went across to Moleleki, Extension 2. Where did you stay in Moleleki? Oh, sorry, I resided in block F. Extension 2? Yes, that is correct. Were you working at that time? No. In the SDU, were you an ordinary patroller, or an operator? I was a patroller. During the capturing and killing of the victims, did you participate in the rounding up of them? Yes, that is correct. Tell us, how did it come about that you went to round them up? First of all, as there was this corpse, Bulelwa's corpse that we were watching over, it so happened that there were gunshots and there was this shack, Blanko's shack, that was set alight. Yes, we were watching over Bulelwa's body. They started firing shots and we tried to rush to the scene to see what was happening and when we arrived there, Blanko's shack was on fire and Blanko himself had been burnt inside. We then stayed on watching over the fire until such time that the fire was extinguished. After that, then that is Sugar, his nickname is Vembe, he is the one who discussed with Mchebe, saying that now that these people who created the problem have been seen, they are known, Oscar saw them, these people should therefore be rounded up. No, when we went down from Blanko's place, we were the whole group, but I stopped at Bulelwa's place. Did you stay at Bulelwa's corpse until (indistinct)? Yes, I stayed there and they proceeded. People were going to be rounded up. (Indistinct), just listen, listen, did you remain at Bulelwa's body until the rest of the victims were brought into the shack? Yes, I stayed there until Oscar and Mneba Sonti came back. I cannot remember the others, because there were many of them, they brought these two boys, young boys, and the other one was carrying a bottle with a petrol and this cigarette carton. From there on, an instruction was issued that others should be rounded up. At that time, I was not there when they were taken into the shack, but I was there when they were brought, presented before the community, and thereafter it was indicated that they should round others up. I don't know exactly who issued this order, but when we left the shack after locking them in, they parted and they said they were going to round up others. By this time the instruction had been given out. Eventually they were all brought together and put in a shack, is that so? Did you ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON Answer the question first. Could you please repeat the question. You say that an instruction was issued that the others must be brought to the shacks as well? You had to go and look for the others? Yes, that is correct. Did you go out to look for the others? Yes, I followed suit when they went for the second time to round the rest up. We went on until we arrived at C, we couldn't find them, went to A and at A we found Tusanang. We found Tusanang and we found him there, we took Tusanang along until we went to block D where we found this young boy with the light complexion, I think Jamlang is his name. I did not know his name until today. The one that's sitting down. We then took them to the others who had been already rounded out when I was still there at the corpse, that is Bulelwa's corpse, Bulelwa's corpse. From there on, it was now light. My problem then was that I had taken my stuff, I was tired of staying the whole night outside. It was now light, I decided to dodge, went to my place, because it was not far away from where Bulelwa was and I went to my place to rest. (Inaudible)? Yes, that is correct. To where the people were killed? It was in the morning, I was going to rest, it was now light outside. I did go to the veld, because on waking up, it was already daylight when we took them to the veld, it may have been in the morning, but yes, the sun had risen. I joined them when they had gathered everybody else, thereafter the commander instructed that they be taken to the veld. What made you, well as I understand your evidence, you'd been drinking the previous day and you were tired and that's why you slip away into your house? Yes, that is correct. And did you sleep at home? I did not leave at night, I left in the morning when we came back. I slept, it may have been three hours, from around six or seven, I'm not sure. What made you to go back to them, to go to the veld? I'm part of the SDU and therefore it was a matter of must, that after having seen what was happening, I too had to be there. How did you know that they went to the veld, where did you get that information from? They were just about to leave for the veld when I arrived. Where were they? They were at the shack. Fortunately, when I arrived there, I asked where they were, and I was told they were still at the shack. That is where I went, and shortly thereafter an order was issued that they should be taken to the veld. MR MALAN Could I just make sure, this shack, was it the first shack or the next shack right at the veld? This is the second shack, the one nearest to the veld. MR MALAN The first shack, was that not the shack where Bulelwa's corpse was found? The second shack was only nearer to Bulelwa's corpse. Which shack was nearer to Bulelwa's corpse? The first shack. MR MALAN When you left early that morning, the victims were still in the first shack? Yes, I left them in the first shack. (Inaudible)? Yes, that is correct. And an order was issued that they should be taken away. Continue from there. They were taken out of the shack and we escorted them. I too was escorting them. We escorted them until we arrived at the veld. The commander then instructed them to sit down and they had their backs against us at the time. From then on, he fired shots, that is Mchebe Dondolo, he fired using his 9mm, he fired about four shots. From then on, the others carrying AK47's also started shooting. Myself, with my axe, I'd say after the others had fired and had run out of bullets, Michael in particular, Rooivark, some people were still moving, that is the ones who were shot. Mchebe then instructed that we should finish them off, and I hit the ones who were still moving, finishing them off. Did you finish off any person, you? I was only concentrating on those who were still moving, because the others had already been shot and they were not moving anymore. After (indistinct), what happened? We then proceeded going back to the township. On going up back to the township, we took the main road, the main tarred road that divides F and E. We walked up to the rank, myself with my neighbour, the deceased one, we were further down, and there was a route that goes down to her place, I went to my place and parted ways with them at the corner. Why did you participate in the killing of these people? Because I was a member of the SDU. To be honest, the death of Blanko and Bulelwa hurt me so much. As I arrived in May, in May I went back home in Eshela(?), because we had some function, traditional function, I stayed there until August, I came back in August and in the yard I had left behind Thobile Luphindo and his wife. On arrival, I found a report from Luphindo to the effect that we now have a problem, these boys, well I didn't know them, because I just heard about them when I arrived there, he then indicated that these boys had now killed a person and they were coming back to apologise. I was hurt and I though there is so much carelessness maybe in the SDU or among the boys, because they were part of us, and on serious consideration, I thought, I learned that these boys were no longer our party, they were now on their own. Was the killing of these people connected with the SDU duty to protect the community? Yes, that is correct, because we were trying by all means to cleanse the township of corruption and bad behaviour, because at the time we were fighting Inkatha, we ended up calling them gangsters, because that's what their deeds indicated to us. (Indistinct) benefited from the killing, personally? There may be, there may not be, if you look at this very well, you will understand that the community got peace, but I realised that the parents and the relatives of the deceased were now affected emotionally. That is why I cannot say I personally did not benefit. Is there anything that you received, anything of value, because you killed these people, you received, or paid, something like that? Let me put it simple, no, I did not get anything. Thank you, Mr Chair. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Sibanyoni? MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no questions from me. MR MALAN And not from me, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata? As a member of the SDU, I know the laws and the policies, that when things are bad outside, as we were watching over Bulelwa's body, I had to have my own weapon, where accordingly to befit a person who walks at night, just like the police wearing their uniform, we too were wearing our own clothes carrying your own axe or AK or your knobkierie. That night I went to my place and fetched my things, because I was coming from my own place, I had drunk. When you were patrolling, would you carry your axe with? Yes, that is correct. Thank you, chairperson, I've got no further questions. CHAIRPERSON As I understand it, you say all members of the SDU knew that if there's a whistle, you've got to arm yourself and go immediately to the place where the whistle is coming from? Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Is it correct that a member of the SDU would go to, would have been present at the place where these people were killed without being armed? Yes, that was possible, but the rules, SDU rules, as to their operation, no-one would go to the place where the whistle was blown without being armed. CHAIRPERSON You mentioned youths who were supposed to apologise. Who were those? Would you please repeat your question, Mr Chair? CHAIRPERSON I heard you talk about some people who were supposed to apologise? I cannot remember very well having said anything about people who were supposed to apologise, except that when I arrived, I got an information from Luphindo that these boys came to apologise to the SDU for killing a person, yet the person is an ANC member. CHAIRPERSON When did they come to apolo..., who were those boys who came to apologise? It was the very same Youth League, the very ones who deserted the SDU. (Inaudible)? I cannot say, because I also got this from the person whom I left behind at my yard, he explained to me what happened during my absence and the people who did this came to apologise to the SDU because they had killed an ANC member. CHAIRPERSON The deceased had been killed? Yes, that is correct, they apologised after having killed the person, after killing the person, I'm not sure whether it was Majosi, and after killing the person, they learnt that they had killed a wrong person. CHAIRPERSON The boys who were coming back to apologise, what were they apologising for? Were they apologising for killing Bulelwa and Blanko, or ...(intervention). No, they were not apologising for that, they were apologising for having killed Majosi, the one who had a spaza shop, the one who was a member of the Communist Party, yes, that is correct. (Indistinct) or Mr Madasa commence or says something arising from our questions, Mr August, Mr Mokoena, before he take leave of that seat today, he expressed sentiments to the families that of forgiveness. Do you associate yourself with those sentiments? Mr Chairman, I associate myself with what he said, because it is not good that we killed these people. Looking back, they were not living in their homes, in the shacks in which they lived, those were not their homes, after having killed these people, it transpired that we have made a mistake, we had wronged the community, and because of that, I too am one of those who are apologising, asking also on behalf of others who have not said so yet. Those who were with us in the SDU, we too lost our temper and we were forced by circumstances at the time. Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV MADASA NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr August, you may return to your seat. Well at this stage we will adjourn and reconvene tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS