amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-03-06 BOKSBURG 5 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54638&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/bok/bok1_katleho5.htm MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chairman. May I call Bennet Mnyaka Ndabe. CHAIRPERSON Good morning Mr Ndabe. MR NDABE Good morning. CHAIRPERSON What language are you going to speak? MR NDABE Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Okay, very well. BENNET MNYAKA NDABE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Madasa? EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA Mr Ndabe, how old are you? MR NDABE I am 39 years old. MR MADASA How far did you go at school? MR NDABE I failed from five. MR MADASA December 1993, did you live in (indistinct) MR NDABE That is true. MR MADASA Which Extension and Block? MR NDABE (Indistinct) Extension 2, Block D. MR MADASA In the SDU, were you a patroller or an operator? MR NDABE I was a patroller. MR MADASA In the killings of December 1993, were you involved? MR NDABE No. I only participated in capturing (indistinct) MR MADASA How did it come about that you were involved in capturing those people? MR NDABE In the morning just after sunrise we left, myself and Sonti and Shuga. We had been sent to report to Mnyala that the youth has already attacked people. MR MADASA Who sent you? MR NDABE I don't remember quite well, whether that was from the community or himself, as he was a member of the Executive Defence. I just escorted him or accompanied him. MR MADASA This day that you are talking about, is this the day of the killing or is it the day when Blanko and Bulelwa died? MR NDABE Blanko died on that day. MR MADASA Where did you meet these people who sent you? MR NDABE At Bulelwa's corpse. MR MADASA You went to Bulelwa's corpse? MR NDABE That is where we were, we were keeping guard the whole night. MR MADASA With whom? MR NDABE We were quite many in number plus the community of Block F. MR MADASA Were you asked to guard the corpse or did you go there voluntarily? MR NDABE It is our culture as black people, we can't leave our corpse alone. MR MADASA Did you hear that Bulelwa had died or how did it come about that you went to her body? MR NDABE As part of the group, we heard the whistle blow. MR MADASA You heard a whistle, and then you went to Bulelwa's body? MR NDABE That is so. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps Mr Ndabe, if you could just tell us how it came to be that you were at the spot where Bulelwa's body was found and how it came about that you went with Sonti and Shuga to make a report to Mnyala and what happened thereafter, do you understand that? MR MADASA I don't quite understand what you want. CHAIRPERSON I am saying you have already told us that you did not kill anyone. What you did was to escort or accompany the people who were going to capture and you took part there, and you have already made mention of the fact that as a man who belonged to that particular organisation or group, you had to go as part of the culture to where the corpse was. You were in the company of Sonti and Shuga to convey the report to Mnyala. MR NDABE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now, what I am asking from you please concisely explain to us as to how did it come about that you landed right next to Bulelwa's corpse and found yourself going to Mnyala, and also we want to know what happened subsequently, in other words we want for you to explain to us exactly what you did. MR NDABE The way we used to operate was in this fashion, if there is a place that has been attacked, we would hear a whistle blow, because people will alert us by blowing the whistle, and we will run to this thing where this whistle was being blown. That is exactly what happened on that particular day. We heard the whistle and we had to rush in the direction where the whistle was being blown from and that is what we found Bulelwa's corpse. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR NDABE We were there for quite some time, and some other comrades that is next to the corpse, some other comrades left to go and sleep at night, since they had to go to work the following morning. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR NDABE Towards the early hours of the morning, or at dawn, we heard sounds of gun fire. Suddenly there was fire. We had to rush there with some other men who were with me around the corpse of Bulelwa that is. We found Blanko's shack burning fiercely. We were quite many in number and we tried to extinguish the fire. Then comrade Oscar arrived and explained to us, he was already from Sonti. He was telling us, that is Oscar, who killed the person, who killed Blanko and was seen killing Blanko. MR MADASA Did he tell you who did he see? MR NDABE He did mention his name. He said Tusaneng was the person. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE We therefore left and went back to Bulelwa's corpse, some of us that is. Some left in search of some other people like Ntshebe Dondolo. I forgot the other one who used to be a Chairman at F, Nxeba, I just remembered. His name is Nxeba. They went. They went to fetch the Peace Committee at the hospital to fetch the corpse. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE Comrades left us there by the corpse. When Nxeba's car drove towards B or A, I am not too sure, we also heard gun shots at that point. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE When these men followed towards that direction, they came across the other group and more gun shots were heard and we were still there, keeping guard at the corpse, so we don't know exactly what was happening, we just saw them coming back with youth. It was Nongeba Sonti and Shuga was also there. I don't know the others. MR MADASA Do you know those kids they brought back? MR NDABE I never knew them. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE Those kids were taken to a shack which was near, just closer to where Bulelwa's corpse was laying. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE Rooivalk was chosen and somebody else, to keep guard. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE The group left again, going to locate as to where Nxeba was. When they came back, they brought more kids and claimed that they met them somewhere, and Tusaneng was amongst that group if I am not mistaken this time around. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE And when they arrived, they were also forwarded to the shack. MR MADASA Did they return with one person or more than one person? MR NDABE I don't know how many they were, but it was a group. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE Early in the morning, I felt so sleepy, I felt I wanted to go to bed and sleep and I joined Nxeba as they were leaving, I left with them. MR MADASA Whom did you join? MR NDABE I joined Nxeba and Shuga. MR MADASA Nxeba who? MR NDABE Nxeba Sonti. MR MADASA Where did you go? MR NDABE I was going with them to where they were going, they were going to Mnyala's house. We met Tsepo at the taxi rank and we asked him about the matter that transpired yesterday since he was also sent. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE And he told us that they were shot and one escaped and no one could tell as to who was running into which direction and so forth. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE And he went to sleep wherever he slept and we left him alone and we got into a taxi and we told him where to go to a meeting where people had gathered. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE The taxi took us to Mnyala and we alighted. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE Just after getting out of the taxi, we saw Mnyala standing with Nxeba and three boys that belonged to the youth. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE When we alighted from the taxi, we approached their direction. One ran, fled and shot at us at the same time as he was running. MR MADASA Do you know who that was? MR NDABE Yes, I do know. MR MADASA Who? MR NDABE His name was Vips. MR MADASA Did he shoot at you? MR NDABE Yes, he was shooting towards our direction, but no one got shot as he was also running. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE We captured the other three. MR MADASA Do you know them? MR NDABE No, I don't know them. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE When we searched them, we discovered a pistol from one of them. That I handed over to the Committee, the pistol as Shuga was also part of the Committee member, SDU Committee. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE Mnyala said we should go with them to 6, he will follow. MR MADASA Did you do so? MR NDABE Yes, we went with them. He said he will follow us later. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE Indeed, we went with them to 6. MR MADASA Where is 6? MR NDABE That is Muleleki Extension 2. MR MADASA Who took them to the shack? MR NDABE Shuga went with them to the shack. MR MADASA Which shack, the one that was next to Bulelwa's body? MR NDABE The first shack that was closer to where Bulelwa's corpse was laying. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE I left after that and I went to my house, since I did not sleep at night. Just between Block D and Block E, there is an open veld there at E. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE I met the mother of one of the late or the deceased. MR MADASA Do you know her, her names? MR NDABE I don't know the name, all I know it is Pinky's mother. She asked me as to where her child was. She mentioned the name, I said I don't know the name, I don't know exactly. I don't remember the name she mentioned, but she did mention a name to me. MR MOTATA What is the name, you said you met somebody's mother - Pinky? MR NDABE Pinky's mother. MR MOTATA Who is Pinky MR NDABE Pinky is her daughter. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE She had to explain and describe the clothes that the girl was wearing, or the child was wearing. MR MADASA Yes. MR NDABE After she described the child, I said the child is there in the shack. And I also told her that people are still there. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE And I left her and went on ahead to my house to sleep. MR MADASA Did you participate further in anything? MR NDABE No. MR MOTATA You remained in hour house? MR NDABE I slept in my house. I woke up in the afternoon. MR MADASA Do you know anything about the killings? MR NDABE I heard about that when I met the other comrades. MR MADASA But you were not there? MR NDABE I wasn't there. MR MADASA Why did you participate in rounding up those boys? MR NDABE I was a SDU member and we were protecting the community or guarding the community. CHAIRPERSON I thought you said you had been tired of remaining near the corpse? I thought you had said you were tired of guarding the corpse? MR NDABE Yes. When I left with Sonti I was beginning to feel dizzy and sleepy because I hadn't slept. CHAIRPERSON You went to capture those boys because you were tired? MR NDABE I was tired of just sitting, because as I was sitting, I was falling asleep, so I had to do some action. MR MADASA Why did you join Sonti and others to collect more people? MR NDABE As I have already explained, I said that I was sitting down, I was falling asleep as a result of sitting down. Now, I felt I had to do something to get involved in some kind of action. MR NDABE My question is were you required to join them, did you see that as part of your work? MR NDABE Yes. MR MOTATA No one ordered you to join Shuga and so on? MR NDABE No one. MR MOTATA Were you ordered to guard Bulelwa's body? MR NDABE I wasn't ordered. MR MOTATA Did you respond to the SDU call? MR NDABE The whistle call, do you mean? MR MOTATA Dit you respond to the whistle? MR NDABE Yes, I did. MR MOTATA Which was calling SDU members to go and ... MR NDABE Yes, I responded to the whistle call. MR MOTATA Was guarding Bulelwa's body, part of your duty in the SDU? MR NDABE Yes. MR MOTATA Was the capturing of these boys with Sonti, part of that? MR NDABE Yes, it was part of the defence. MR MOTATA The capturing of these boys, how was that going to protect the community? MR NDABE Capturing those boys will be protecting the community in this way - these boys had killed members of the community of Muleleki Extension 2. MR MADASA Who were those members? MR NDABE It was Bulelwa and Blanko. MR MADASA Yes? MR NDABE Another point of fact was about the infiltration of the third force, because they called themselves ANC Youth League but in actions, they were actually not ANC Youth League. MR MOTATA Are you saying that they called themselves members of the ANC Youth League, but their conduct was inconsistent with members of the ANC Youth League? MR NDABE Yes, that is true. MR MADASA What else? MR NDABE And the weapons that they had in their possession, were weapons that were being used by the Police. MR MADASA What did that indicate the fact that the weapons were similar to the Police's? MR NDABE That indicated some collaboration of some kind between them and the third force. MR MOTATA Are you suggesting that because they carried firearms similar to those carried by the Police, therefore they were working hand in hand with the Police? MR NDABE That is what I am saying. MR MOTATA Do you know how they got - did you personally see anyone of them carrying a weapon similar to the one used by the Police? MR NDABE I do hope that in my statement that is clear, that when we searched them, the other three, we realised the pistol. MR MADASA What kind of a pistol was this? MR NDABE It was a 9, the one that Police use. MR MADASA It was a 9? MR NDABE Yes. MR MADASA 9 what? MR NDABE A short 9. MR MOTATA Did you ask him how he got hold of that short 9? MR NDABE No, I did not. MR MOTATA Could he not have stolen it from the Police? MR NDABE I wouldn't know that far. MR MADASA Do you have any other evidence that the weapons they had, were similar to those of the Police, besides this 9 mm? MR NDABE No, I don't have any other evidence to that effect, except for what I have already told you. MR MADASA Did you hear from your comrades in the SDU about them having firearms similar to those of the Police? MR NDABE I had heard from comrade Sonti when they were going to kill the Majosi. MR MADASA What did he tell you? MR NDABE He said he arrived to him with Majosi's cousin, passing. MR MADASA What did he say about firearms? MR NDABE He said they had R1's. CHAIRPERSON These persons, from your information, had been carrying these firearms which were used by the Police even before Bulelwa and Blanko were killed? MR NDABE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And prior to Blanko and Bulelwa being killed, they had already demonstrated conduct which you believe was inconsistent with the members of the ANC Youth League? MR NDABE I don't quite understand. CHAIRPERSON Before Blanko and Bulelwa were killed, you already have seen that their conduct was not consistent, or was not the way the ANC Youth League members carried themselves. They were not killed prior to the death of Bulelwa and Blanko? MR NDABE There is one, the one that made them to disassociate themselves with us because we tried to stop them from their conduct. CHAIRPERSON Is that the reason why they were not killed before? MR NDABE Blanko and Bulelwa? CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR NDABE It is not the reason. CHAIRPERSON What are you suggesting, I am asking you whether is there any reason why they were not killed prior to the death of Bulelwa and Blanko? MR NDABE We did not have any proof before that. CHAIRPERSON Proof of what? MR NDABE To catch them red-handed you know, because in Blanko's case, we also realised some boxes of cigarettes which were proof to us. CHAIRPERSON What proof did you require? MR NDABE About proof that of something that they had in hand from where they attacked. CHAIRPERSON You see, I am asking you and you have told us that prior to the death of Blanko and Bulelwa, you believed that the persons who were captured and killed, were engaged in a conduct which was inconsistent with members of the ANC Youth League. MR NDABE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON What I want to find out from you is if that were to be the case, and I think you have told us, we know that they had been involved in the killing of Majosi for example, was a member of the South African Communist Party we were told, they were also involved, we were told in the hijacking of a bakkie for a Mr Makanya for example. What we want to find out from you, if you had all of this information, why were they not killed prior to the death of Bulelwa and Blanko? MR NDABE That question is difficult. It is a quite difficult question. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Madasa? MR MADASA Now Blanko was the Chairman of SDU, is that correct? MR NDABE Yes. MR MADASA What did his death mean to you in relation to the protection of the community? Did you understand my question? MR NDABE No, I don't understand your question. MR MADASA Blanko was the Chairman of SDU? MR NDABE Yes. MR MADASA He was killed? MR NDABE Yes. MR MADASA There was evidence from Oscar that he was killed by ANC Youth League? MR NDABE That is correct. MR MADASA Was his death connected with the protection of the community? MR NDABE You mean the death of Blanko? It was not related, they were attacking the community. MR MADASA No, you don't understand me. Let me put it this way ... MR NDABE You see, we were protecting the community. MR MADASA Yes, I know. Was the killing of SDU members, going to expose the community to the ANC Youth League? MR NDABE Yes. MR MADASA Now, did you benefit anything from capturing those boys? MR NDABE No. MR MADASA I have no further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA . CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. I have no questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Sibanyoni? MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Ndabe, you say Pinky's mother described how her son was dressed, did I understand you correctly? MR NDABE Yes. MR SIBANYONI Now, was her son one of those whom you captured? MR NDABE Those are the ones we captured, three of them, he was one of the three in other words. MR SIBANYONI Now, do you I mean today, not at that stage, today, do you know who is Pinky's mother in other words, her name or her surname? MR NDABE I wouldn't say that, I don't know the surname, because the husband we refer to him as Mokoena if I am not mistaken. MR SIBANYONI So, the mother we are talking about is Mrs Mokoena, is that so? MR NDABE I don't want to confirm that. MR SIBANYONI At the stage when you were capturing these, the three boys you captured, did you know what will eventually happen with them? MR NDABE No. MR SIBANYONI But one of the applicants yesterday said that if a person kills, that person would be killed. Did you hear that applicant saying so? MR NDABE I wouldn't say I heard this. MR SIBANYONI And then the killing of these youth, to me appears as if it was an avenge for the death of Blanko, you were retaliating because they killed Blanko. What do you say about that? MR NDABE No, it is not so. MR SIBANYONI Okay, thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan? MR MALAN Mr Ndabe, this Pinky, was she a friend of Bulelwa's? MR NDABE No, that is not the one, that is not the Pinky. MR MALAN So that is another Pinky? MR NDABE That is true. MR MALAN No further questions, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Motata? MR MOTATA Mr Ndabe, before the Youth League separated themselves from you, that is the SDU, you used to patrol together? MR NDABE That is true. MR MOTATA Just explain to us, we know from the evidence we have heard that operators used to carry guns and those would be issued by the Commander Regional or Central, but they used to carry guns and in this respect AK47's, is that so? MR NDABE Yes. MR MOTATA Were the members of the Youth League, when they joined you, also being issued with that type of weaponry? MR NDABE No. MR MOTATA We are told that the operators were trained, now when you were patrolling or rather let's put it this way, members of the Youth League who joined you, were they trained? MR NDABE No. MR MOTATA You have referred to incidents of shootings, but it would appear that whilst this ensued nobody (indistinct) injured in the process and since your members that is the SDU were trained, they couldn't shoot straight could they? MR NDABE It is so. MR MOTATA You happen to know Pinky's mother, she took the trouble to describe the clothing of her son. Would you know that the son was one of the victims that is one of the people who died? MR NDABE Yes. MR MOTATA To date, from 1993 December, 7, have you endeavoured to find out who this son was? MR NDABE No. MR MOTATA You were probably vindicated that you had achieved your objective in killing the victims in the process of protecting the community, are you saying that to us? MR NDABE That is not what I am saying. MR MOTATA We know, or rather let's ask you, do you regard the families of the victims as part of the community which you tried to protect? MR NDABE Yes. MR MOTATA And it would be human nature that if one of the members of the community and let's confine ourselves to Muleleki, that if something befalls that family, you would find out what happened from that family, wouldn't that be so? MR NDABE Yes. MR MOTATA These members of the African National Congress Youth League, were not a menace to only the other members of the community, but their families too were threatened, would I be right if I think along those lines? MR NDABE I wouldn't know. MR MOTATA But we should accept that when you protected the community of Muleleki, the members of the victims, the families of the victims where you were trying to protect them as well, should we accept that? MR NDABE Yes. MR MOTATA Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions. MR MALAN The identity of Pinky's mother, would her first name be Alphina? MR NDABE I don't know the name, she is also present here. I may ask her if you so wish that she may identify herself. MR MALAN I just want to make sure because we have information that Mrs Alphina Mokati says that she met up with you and at that stage, there was also Mrs Constance Sindesi was also there and that you were asked about their children, and that you answered only Mrs Mokati, Alphina Mokati, told her that her child was indeed in the shack. Were there two women that asked you, is that correct? MR NDABE Yes. MR MALAN Then if that is so, then the Youth's name would have been Isaac Mogadi if the woman ... MR NDABE Isaac Mogadi? MR MALAN Yes, could it be? MR NDABE I think she said something to that effect. MR MALAN Okay, thank you. CHAIRPERSON I understand that you fell tired and you went to your house to sleep? ... (tape ends) ... that you were going home? MR NDABE I did not report to anyone. CHAIRPERSON Is there a reason why you did not report that you were going home? MR NDABE I just thought that I am sneaking out to go and sleep, and I will quickly coming back. CHAIRPERSON Did anyone see you leaving? There were many people there I suppose? MR NDABE Yes, there were many people, Defence, with other people of the community. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but did anyone see you leave? MR NDABE The person who saw me was one of the civilians in F because I passed by their house. CHAIRPERSON And could any other member of the SDU who wanted to do what you did, have done that just go home and sleep? MR NDABE I wouldn't know that much. CHAIRPERSON Well, if you are able to do it, is there any reason why the others could not have done that? Did you get the question? MR NDABE I heard your question, I am still thinking. I suppose no, I wouldn't know. CHAIRPERSON No, I mean you were present at the scene and you were able to go home, sleep until the afternoon. MR NDABE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And thereby avoid going to the veld where the persons were killed. Is there anything which could have prevented the other members of the SDU from doing what you did - simple go home, sleep until the afternoon? MR NDABE I wasn't avoiding whether I did not also know whether people will be killed or not. I was there at the corpse, I thought people would explain it to the community as to what was happening. CHAIRPERSON Yes, in other words you assumed that because they have now been brought to the community, the community will then have to decide what to do with them, your duties as an SDU had come to an end, you can simply go and sleep? MR NDABE I had to go and sleep because it was in the morning. CHAIRPERSON There was nothing which - the other members of the SDU's could have done the same, couldn't they? MR NDABE Some had to keep guard, they had to be there. It wasn't easy for them because there was another group that was released at night to go and sleep. CHAIRPERSON I understand that, you see you told us that as far as you understood the situation, because the people had been brought to the community, the community was then to decide their fate, you were free to go and sleep, that is what you told us, right? MR NDABE Yes. CHAIRPERSON So I am saying, any other member of the SDU could have done the same, they could have gone to their respective homes and slept the rest of the day? MR NDABE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Were you aware of a rumour that the members of the ANC Youth League were out to kill members of the SDU? MR NDABE That they left their ... CHAIRPERSON They were planning on killing members of the SDU? MR NDABE I wouldn't confirm that because we are still trying to arrange meetings where we could discuss these matters. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but did you hear the rumour though that members of the ANC Youth League ... MR NDABE The rumours, yes, I heard them. CHAIRPERSON That they wanted to kill the members of the SDU? MR NDABE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON What steps if any, were taken by the members of the SDU to protect themselves against such a planned killing? MR NDABE We did not try to protect ourselves, all that we did was to write a letter, we send Vuzi Mthembu to write a letter to them so we arranged a meeting and we discussed this matter, but that was to no avail. CHAIRPERSON Blanko was a member of the SDU? MR NDABE That is true. CHAIRPERSON Bulelwa would sympathise with the SDU? MR NDABE She was the community member and the street committee in the Civic. CHAIRPERSON Did she sympathise with the SDU? MR NDABE This is how Civic is structured in the SDU. CHAIRPERSON I am not talking about the Civic, I am talking about Bulelwa. Did she sympathise with the SDU? MR NDABE Yes, she liked SDU. CHAIRPERSON Now, the killing of Blanko who was a member of the SDU, did it not suggest to you that the ANC Youth League was now carrying out their plan of action to kill SDU members? MR NDABE It was so. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MOTATA Mr Ndabe, comrade Motlokwa recognised at least one person, that is Tusaneng who were attacking the house of Blanko, would I be right? MR NDABE No, he said Tusaneng and Vips are the ones that he saw. Otherwise they were quite many in number. MR MOTATA Yes, that is what I am saying, and did he tell you about the looting of tuckshop of Blanko? MR NDABE He only told us about the shooting and we heard as well and we ran in the opposite direction, and at the time when we were running towards Blanko, that is when Nxeba Sonti was there as well, we found that their house was burning fiercely and Blanko was sitting on the chair, helplessly. MR MOTATA You mentioned in your evidence that you met members of the Youth League with cartons of cigarettes, did I hear you correctly? MR NDABE Yes. They did not meet with me, or I did not meet them, but the man that left first in the company of Oscar, following the car that was going to fetch the corpse, then they met because he told us that those boys were coming out from another shack and shooting and insulting and they chased after them and they went to this tall grass and this boys now appeared with the cigarettes in their possession, and tin stuff. MR MOTATA Now, whilst you were told about the tin stuff and the cigarette cartons, wouldn't you say they are the same even if obtained from any other shop? MR NDABE Yes, they are the same. MR MOTATA But your comrades, the SDU's did they use this finding of tin stuff and cigarette cartons that these were part of Blanko's merchandise? MR NDABE It is so. MR MOTATA Because you know I want an explanation, I don't understand this that up to you, nobody has mentioned that Blanko's tuckshop was looted but there was merely a suggestion, but nobody said he saw it. They said that came from Blanko's shop because when they killed him, that for instance we saw Tusaneng, for instance, because this is a person we all know was positively identified that we sat Tusaneng helping himself to the merchandise, but when people are met with some tin stuff and all that, then some conclusion is made that these are the people who had attacked Blanko and taken some of his stock. Could you probably shed some light that we understand the whole thing that happened the 6th of December 1993, are you able to do that? MR NDABE I am certain that the tuckshop that they attacked, had tin stuff, although I am not sure as to how much stock there was, since Blanko was so helpful in the community of F as far as food is concerned. When you got there to the tuckshop the shelves were empty suddenly, the fridge itself was empty. MR MOTATA Thank you Mr Ndabe. MR MALAN When I asked you about this Pinky you gave the indication or you left the impression that you know the Pinky who was with Bulelwa when she was shot, did you know her well? MR NDABE No. Even Bulelwa herself, I did not know her. MR MALAN Do you know the Pinky that was with Bulelwa when she was shot? MR NDABE No. MR MALAN How do you know that it is not the same Pinky? MR NDABE The one that I am talking about is younger and is this mother's child, it is a school child. MR MALAN Okay, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Madasa? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ndabe, is it correct that the SDU procedure during patrols was that you would have shifts, day and night shifts? MR NDABE Yes, that is correct. MR MADASA And is it correct therefore that people who were doing night shift were expected to go home? MR NDABE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Wait a minute, doing night shift where? We know that the patrols were conducted during the day and at night. Are you suggesting that individuals who worked the night shift in their places of employment ... MR MADASA The SDU Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Is it the SDU would patrol during the day? MR MADASA I am suggesting that the SDU members who were doing night patrol or night duty in the SDU activity, were expected, yes who patrolled. By patrolling Mr Chairman, I include for example looking after Bulelwa's corpse through out the night, that was patrolling. CHAIRPERSON I understand that but I wanted to make sure that I understand the question is whether - you are talking about a patrol that members of the SDU who would patrol during the day are allowed to rest in the evening and those who patrol during the night, are allowed to rest during the day, subject to the whistle blowing? Did you hear the question? MR NDABE I did not follow. MR MADASA The question is SDU members who did the day shift, were expected to rest at night and those who did night shift were expected to rest during the day? MR NDABE That is true. MR MADASA Subject to emergencies? MR NDABE Yes. MR MADASA On that day when you responded to the whistle, you have told us that you looked after Bulelwa's body through out the night, is that so? MR NDABE Yes, that is so. MR MADASA Were you therefore expected to rest afterwards during the day? MR NDABE Yes, I was expected to go and rest. MR MADASA Would members who had not done the night shift, be expected to rest as well? MR NDABE It was expected for them to be on duty. MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA . CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, no questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Ndabe, you may return to your seat. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Madasa? MR MADASA Mr Chairman, I call Themba Christopher Mtshali. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mtshali, what language are you going to speak? MR MTSHALI I will speak Zulu. THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Madasa? EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chair. How old are you? MR MTSHALI I am 36 years old. MR MADASA How far did you go at school? MR MTSHALI I went as far as standard 7. MR MADASA In December 1993, did you live at Muleleki? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. MR MADASA Which Block and Extension? MR MTSHALI Block F, Extension 2. MR MADASA Were you working in December 1993? MR MTSHALI No, I was unemployed. MR MADASA The SDU - you were a patroller and an operator? MR MTSHALI I was a patroller. MR MADASA In the killings of December 1993, which we are talking about here, tell us about the role that you played, if you did participate. MR MTSHALI Yes, I played a role. MR MADASA Tell us about what you did. MR MTSHALI In the morning we were sent by Comrade Commander Nxeba Ndondolo. MR MADASA Where were you when he sent you? MR MTSHALI We were at Bulelwa's corpse. MR MADASA Tell us how did it come about that you went to Bulelwa's body? Start from there? MR MTSHALI On my arrival ... MR MADASA Why did you go to her body? MR MTSHALI Let me just go back a little bit. On the 6th at round about eight o'clock, we heard gun fire. As we were surprised we heard a whistle being blown. I then left as a member of the Self Defence Unit, carried my stick and brought my blanket along, rushing to the scene where the whistle was being blown. On my arrival I found some comrades even though I did not see them all. I went to the place where the whistle was being blown, that was Block F. MR MADASA Yes? MR MTSHALI On arrival I found some comrades and a corpse laying on the road, a female corpse. MR MADASA Yes? MR MTSHALI There was also comrade Buthelezi who said to me comrade, we don't want a person wearing a blanket here. I did not object to that and when I went back, there were two of us comrades wearing blankets. MR MADASA Who were those whom you met? MR MTSHALI It was comrade Matabela. MR MADASA Yes. MR MTSHALI I went back to my place and continued to sleep. MR MADASA Yes. MR MTSHALI I slept and in the morning I woke up, went back to the place where neighbours were rushing to. I found that the corpse that was laying there yesterday, was still there. MR MADASA Yes? MR MTSHALI The whole community had gathered there, discussing this issue. I then heard that there is also another one who was shot at night in Block E. MR MADASA Yes? MR MTSHALI I then went to Block E to see what damage had been caused there. MR MADASA Yes. MR MTSHALI On arrival there was a comrade who was burnt in the house. MR MADASA Who was that? MR MTSHALI He was sitting on a chair and that was comrade Blanko. MR MADASA Yes? MR MTSHALI I then heard people saying he was killed by the Youth. MR MADASA Yes? MR MTSHALI I went back to Block F to Bulelwa's corpse. As I was still standing there, comrade Shongwe and Lefu came to me. MR MADASA Shongwe and who? MR MTSHALI Comrade Shongwe and Lefu. CHAIRPERSON Is that Lefu Mokoena? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. MR MADASA Yes. MR MTSHALI And they said comrade Ndondolo instructed us to go and fetch another boy who is alleged to be involved. There are questions that he wanted to pose to him. We then left. MR MADASA Where did you go? MR MTSHALI We went to Block D. MR MADASA Yes? MR MTSHALI On arrival we asked and we found his mother and his sister, that is Mavuso. His mother said yes, he is here, he is asleep. We indicated that we were sent by comrade Commander because he wanted to ask him questions. MR MADASA Yes? MR MTSHALI We then woke him up and he did. MR MADASA Did you go to where he was sleeping to wake him up yourselves? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. MR MADASA Yes? MR MTSHALI We went back to Bulelwa's corpse. When we arrived there, it was indicated to the community that this is the person and it was indicated that we should take him to the shack, and this instruction came from comrade Commander. MR MADASA Is that the first shack? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is the first one, the one that was nearer to Bulelwa's corpse. MR MADASA Yes? MR MTSHALI I then went to the community and attended the meeting that was being held there. Here I think I will stop. MR MADASA Did you go to the place where they were killed? MR MTSHALI No, I didn't sir. MR MADASA What was the community talking about near Bulelwa's body? MR MTSHALI The community was discussing crime and violence. MR MADASA How was the mood of the community members? MR MTSHALI The mood was tense. MR MADASA Can you estimate how many people were there? MR MTSHALI I can estimate them to be in excess of 100. MR MADASA Do you know from which area they came? MR MTSHALI Those that I knew, were from Block F, but certainly the people there were not only from Block F. MR MADASA Was that meeting a formal meeting, chaired or was it informal? MR MTSHALI The meeting had proceeded when I arrived there, and therefore I do not know who chaired the meeting. MR MADASA Was there anything at that meeting said about the death of Blanko and Bulelwa? MR MTSHALI No, I didn't hear anything to that effect. MR MADASA Were their deaths the subject of that meeting? MR MTSHALI What I still remember is that they had long been waiting for the Peace Committee vehicle, and it hadn't shown up because the corpse had been laying there since the previous night. MR MADASA Why were you involved in removing Mavuso from his home? MR MTSHALI I followed the instructions that comrade Commander gave to me. MR MADASA Was that your duty in the SDU? MR MTSHALI Yes, it is part of my duty that I carry out what instructions he gave me. MR MADASA SDU was maintaining peace within the community, is that correct? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. MR MADASA Was the removal of Mavuso part of that? MR MTSHALI Yes, I can say so sir because even when I say when I arrived there, the meeting had already proceeded, I heard that the community was complaining that someone had been shot at night, and now other comrades had indicated that Mavuso is also part of what happened the previous night. MR MADASA Did you benefit anything from your participation in this matter? MR MTSHALI There is nothing that I benefitted from this. MR MADASA I have no further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA . CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. The meeting that you are talking about, is it a meeting that was addressed by Mashinini? MR MTSHALI I would not so no comrade, because I don't even know Mashinini, whether he was there or not, I have never seen him. MR MAPOMA And the meeting you are talking about, was it a meeting nearby Bulelwa's corpse? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Did you attend any meeting at Blanko's place? MR MTSHALI No, I didn't stay at Blanko's place. I just went there to establish the damage and then I went back. MR MAPOMA Thank you, no further questions Judge Ngcobo. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni? MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mtshali, it would seem the meeting we are talking about, in actual fact was not a meeting, but it was the people who had gathered there after hearing a whistle being blown, am I correct? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. MR SIBANYONI In other words there was no specific Chairperson, specific speakers who were addressing the people, only some SDU members addressed the people who had gathered there to pay their respects? MR MTSHALI I would ask the Chairperson to indicate exactly which meeting is he talking about. The one at Bulelwa's place or Bulelwa's body or something else, another meeting? MR SIBANYONI The one at Bulelwa's place? MR MTSHALI I have already explained that in the first day we were sent away and I went back to sleep. On the second day I came back and they were discussing the fact that they were waiting for the Peace Committee vehicle for a very long time, and it had now shown up. MR SIBANYONI Mr Mtshali, I heard you saying you followed the instructions which were given by the Commander, but now when you look back and look at the deeds which you committed, people have lost their dear ones, children have lost their parents, is there anything you would like to say in that regard? MR MTSHALI There is nothing that I would like to say. MR SIBANYONI Are you saying you are not sorry for what happened, you don't have any remorse over what you did? MR MTSHALI Yes, I feel remorse. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, no further questions Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN Mr Mtshali, you said that you got the instructions from the Commander to go and fetch Mavuso to answer to questions. Is that correct? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN Then you said when you arrived, you went back to the corpse, and when you arrived it was indicated to the community that this is the person, and then he was taken to the shack and then you went back to the community and attended the meeting that was being held there, is that correct? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN My question is whether you were present when any questions were asked of Mavuso? Did the Commander ask questions of Mavuso? MR MTSHALI He presented Mr Mavuso to the public and on doing so, he indicated that the boys from the shack said Mavuso was also part of it. I was not there when he was being questioned. MR MALAN You were still there when he was taken to the shack? MR MTSHALI Yes, I was there when he was taken to the shack, but I then went back to the community. MR MALAN So while you were there, Mavuso did not address the community? MR MTSHALI I don't remember him talking. MR MALAN May I take you to another meeting in Block F. You heard the evidence of some of your co-applicants, your comrades, that a new SDU was to be established in Block F, some time before this incident. MR MTSHALI Yes, I know about that. MR MALAN Did you attend that meeting? MR MTSHALI Yes, I did. MR MALAN Did the community accept the new SDU? MR MTSHALI It was said this SDU was going to be in charge of Block F. But those who were present said they were not enough SDU members in Block F, and therefore they need their own Self Defence Unit because Block F is facing Zonkezizwe which place is an Inkatha area. MR MALAN And those present, agreed to that? MR MTSHALI Yes, they did. MR MALAN Did anyone object? MR MTSHALI No one objected to this. MR MALAN Everybody was happy? MR MTSHALI I wouldn't say, but I never heard any objection. MR MALAN From no one? Did no one object? MR MTSHALI No one objected sir. MR MALAN Was Bulelwa there? MR MTSHALI Yes, she was there. MR MALAN Did she object? MR MTSHALI She was told to keep quiet. When it was time for them to indicate to the community that every household should donate R50-00 to buy shovels. MR MALAN Did she object to the R50-00 or what did she object to, why was she told to keep quiet, what did she say? MR MTSHALI She said that it is not possible for another Self Defence Unit to be formed when there is already one existing. MR MALAN Mr Mtshali, did you hear her say that or did you hear that in evidence from someone else who sat here yesterday and during the week? MR MTSHALI I personally heard her say that. MR MALAN Would that not have been construed as an objection? MR MTSHALI Those who were at the meeting showed not to be in agreement with what she was saying and it transpired that she was, yes, objecting to what had already been said. MR MALAN How old was Bulelwa, do you have any idea? MR MTSHALI I would say she was somewhere around 22 years. MR MALAN Was she also Youth League? MR MTSHALI Even though I cannot be sure, it looks like she was not a member of the Youth League. MR MALAN But you are not sure? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN Was she an enemy to the Youth League? MR MTSHALI I am not sure about that Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN No further questions thank you, Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata? MR MOTATA Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mtshali, I just want to know the number that is how many members comprised the SDU and in this respect, let's just confine ourselves to those who were patrolling Muleleki Section as a whole A to E or F, how many members, how many were you in the SDU? MR MTSHALI There were many of us Mr Chairperson. I can estimate to around 45 upwards. MR MOTATA Thank you Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions. CHAIRPERSON You told us that when you first arrived at the spot where Bulelwa's body was laying, you were told that people with blankets were not welcomed. MR MTSHALI That is correct yes. CHAIRPERSON And you said Buthelezi said this? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Is this Buthelezi who was subsequently killed? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Do you know why Buthelezi would have said that people with blankets are not welcomed there? MR MTSHALI Yes, I know Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Why was that? MR MTSHALI It is because he was not part of the ANC struggle. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that he was not a full member of the ANC? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. He was not a full member of the ANC. Will you please repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON He was not a full member of the ANC? MR MTSHALI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Why do you say that? MR MTSHALI It is because one day there was a truck, a paraffin truck that was hijacked by the Youth and they took this truck to a place between Block F and Block E. And when I got out of the house, I saw the community running with buckets, water buckets and plastic water containers. When I rushed there to establish what was happening, I saw on the tar road separating Block F and Block E, I saw this truck and that is where the community had gathered. The route came from comrade Buthelezi. He too was standing outside in the street. When I went to him, that is when I could actually see what this truck was all about. I then said to comrade, when I realised that people were pushing that, I realised that people were differing on this thing. When I got there, it was a paraffin truck. I then asked him is it the right thing to do and he said this thing belongs to the Boers, you don't have to worry. I then went back into the house. That is why I got assurance that he was not an ANC member because he was supposed to call the youth to order when they made mistakes, because that paraffin was going to help us. CHAIRPERSON Any other reason why you suggested that Buthelezi wasn't a full member of the ANC? MR MTSHALI Yes, I do have another reason. That refers to the formation of the Self Defence Unit when there was one already in existence. This is also something that I concluded will create a problem in the community. CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct) MR MTSHALI No, I don't have any other reason Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON As I understand from you, the decision to form the new SDU was taken by the residents of F Section, because I gathered from you that there weren't many members of the SDU there? Is that right? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Do you therefore consider the other residents of Block F who decided to form the new SDU, not to be full members of the ANC? MR MTSHALI They were members of the ANC. CHAIRPERSON Notwithstanding the fact that they had decided to form a new SDU? MR MTSHALI They were instructed by Buthelezi because these were his ideas of forming the new SDU. I would say they agreed to being forced to submit. CHAIRPERSON Were there many members of the SDU at Block F? MR MTSHALI There were two SDU members in Block F, among those who have applied here. CHAIRPERSON Were those two members enough to patrol the whole of Block F? MR MTSHALI No, they were not sufficient. CHAIRPERSON When you went to Blanko's house, were there many people who had gathered there? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Were there any members of the SDU present? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON You did not stay there, you just went there to observe the damage and then you returned to where Bulelwa's body was? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Was there any specific reason why you didn't stay there at Blanko's house? MR MTSHALI There is no reason Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Just before you left Blanko's house to return to where Bulelwa's body was, did you hear what people were talking about there? MR MTSHALI No. CHAIRPERSON Were they talking? MR MTSHALI Yes, they were talking. CHAIRPERSON But you couldn't hear what they were talking about? MR MTSHALI No. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you then returned to the spot where Bulelwa's body was? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON There people were talking about the unrest and crime? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON You could hear people talking about that? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Was there any suggestion as to who had killed Bulelwa, at the meeting? MR MTSHALI Yes. CHAIRPERSON What was the suggestion? MR MTSHALI It was said the Youth was involved. CHAIRPERSON When you returned to the spot where Bulelwa was, you were not longer wearing the blanket, were you? MR MTSHALI I still had my blanket on. CHAIRPERSON What made you to go, to leave the spot in the first place? Well, you told us that when you arrived there Buthelezi said that people who were wearing blankets were not welcomed here and you left, right? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON But you returned later wearing the same blanket? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Why did you leave in the first place? MR MTSHALI I came back the following day Chairperson, seeing other comrades who were wearing blankets there as well. CHAIRPERSON Was there any suggestion at all that Bulelwa had been killed by the members of the SDU? MR MTSHALI I did not know. CHAIRPERSON What is it that you did not know? MR MTSHALI I did not know that Bulelwa was killed by the SDU members. CHAIRPERSON There were rumours and talks, are there rumours that you came across to the effect that Bulelwa was killed by SDU comrades? Is there any reason why you did not go to the veld where the people were killed? MR MTSHALI There is no reason Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Before you left, did you say that you from where you had been, that is at the spot where Bulelwa's body was, you returned to your house? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. When the corpse was being taken shortly after the car had arrived to pick the corpse up. CHAIRPERSON When the body was removed, were the deceased still in the shacks, locked up in the shacks? MR MTSHALI Which deceased are you referring to Chairperson? The children who were killed in the veld, yes, I would say so even though I was not there personally, I was in the community, guarding over Bulelwa's body. CHAIRPERSON Did you see the deceased being removed from this shack to another shack? MR MTSHALI No, I did not. CHAIRPERSON Did you know what was going to happen to these persons? MR MTSHALI No. CHAIRPERSON Did you ever think what was going to happen? MR MTSHALI No, I did not because I did not know what decision the Commander will take. CHAIRPERSON As a member of the SDU, did you consider it necessary that you must be present to hear what the Commander was going to say often concerning the fate of these individuals? MR MTSHALI Yes, I did but the Commander did not instruct me to be part of the group that left. CHAIRPERSON Did you expect the Commander to call you to come? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Were the people who went with the deceased to the veld, called by the Commander? MR MTSHALI Yes, I would say so. CHAIRPERSON Did he call them by their names? MR MTSHALI I am not sure about that. CHAIRPERSON Were you present when he called them? MR MTSHALI No, I was not present, that is why I am saying how he actually called them, because I was not present. CHAIRPERSON How do you know that they were called by him? MR MTSHALI He is the one who was in charge of the organisation, he was the one who was making orders. CHAIRPERSON But you see as I understand your evidence, you said that the people who went there, were people who were called by the Commander to go there. MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON But you didn't go there because the Commander didn't call you? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And I am asking you how do you know that these are the persons - were called by the Commander to go to the place where the deceased were killed? MR MTSHALI I have already indicated that I am not sure because I was not present. CHAIRPERSON Before you left, did you tell the Commander that you were now leaving? MR MTSHALI No, I did not tell him. CHAIRPERSON How was the Commander going to find you, if you leave without you telling him? MR MTSHALI It is because he was not at Bulelwa's corpse. I went back to my place when the community started dispersing. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I understand that. You expected that the Commander would call you, but how was he going to call you if you leave without telling him that you are now going to your house as a member of the SDU? MR MTSHALI Would you please repeat your question Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON You were a member of the SDU, you were waiting for the Commander Nxeba Ndondolo to give an instruction to go to the veld with the rest? MR MTSHALI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON What I am asking you now is because you had just left without informing him that you were now leaving, I am now leaving, going back home, how was he supposed to know where you were if he wanted to use you? MR MTSHALI He did not know where I resided. CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chairman. In the SDU, was a member required to patrol the area where he was living in or would a member patrol even other Blocks where he did not live? MR MTSHALI A member would not patrol in an area where they did not reside, they patrolled all the Blocks. MR MADASA So at the time Buthelezi called that meeting, Block F was patrolled but not by members of F Block? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. It was being patrolled by members of the Self Defence Unit, the one that patrolled Muleleki, the whole of Muleleki. Such that this is how I realised that there was going to be conflict if another SDU is formed where there is this one existing already. MR MADASA So Buthelezi wanted F people to patrol F Block? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. MR MADASA Which was not policy of the SDU? That was not the policy of the SDU? MR MTSHALI That is correct. MR MADASA And then you say but the SDU members who lived in F, were few, it was only you and another person? MR MTSHALI That is correct. MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA . CHAIRPERSON You were in Block F, but you didn't patrol Block F, is that right? MR MTSHALI Yes, I was in Block F, but I was patrolling the whole 6, including Block F. CHAIRPERSON Including Block F? MR MTSHALI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON You mentioned I think it is that there were approximately 45 members of the SDU? MR MTSHALI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Of this 45, only two stayed in Block F? MR MTSHALI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MAPOMA No questions Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Mtshali, you may return to your seat. MR MTSHALI I don't know Chairperson, whether I can have my request. CHAIRPERSON Do you want to discuss that with your counsel first? MR MTSHALI No. I can also present this here if you can give me the right to show. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MTSHALI Thank you Chairperson. I would request families of those who lost their children, please forgive me. I did not like what happened. The members of the Self Defence Units did not like this, we are therefore applying for amnesty. We will meet with our counsel so that we can meet with the next of kin, especially the women, Mavuso's mother in particular. Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mtshali. You may return to your seat. WITNESS EXCUSED We will take the tea adjournment now, we will return at half past eleven. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa, have you now had enough time to consult with your witnesses? MR MADASA Yes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Okay very well, shall we start? MR MADASA Mr Chairperson, may I call Bulelwa Ndwane, as a witness for the applicants? CHAIRPERSON Good morning Ma'am, what language are you going to speak? MS NDWANE I will speak in Xhosa. NOMBUNISO NDWANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Madasa? EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chairperson. In 1993, where were you staying? MS NDWANE I stayed at Muleleki, Extension 2, Block F. MR MADASA Do you know the applicants? MS NDWANE Yes, I do know them. MR MADASA How do you know them? MS NDWANE I know them because they were members of SDU patrolling at Muleleki. MR MADASA Do you know which areas in Muleleki they patrolled? MS NDWANE Yes, I do know. MR MADASA Which areas? Did you belong to any organisation? MR MALAN Sorry, may we just hear which areas they were patrolling? MS NDWANE I was a member of the ANC. MR MADASA She said they patrolled A to F. Did the SDU patrol all the Blocks in Muleleki? MS NDWANE Yes, they patrolled all the Blocks. MR MADASA During that time, did you belong to any structure? MS NDWANE Yes, the ANC. MR MADASA Did you hold office? MS NDWANE No. MR MADASA You were an ordinary member? MS NDWANE Yes, I was an ordinary member. MR MADASA Did you belong to a street committee or civic or women's league? MS NDWANE No, I was not a member of the street committee, but I would go to the women's league meetings. I was not a member of the women's league, but I did attend the meetings. MR MADASA Was the community at F in December 1993, satisfied with the patrols of the SDU to your knowledge? MS NDWANE According to my knowledge, or I never heard anyone complaining about the SDU or the way they patrolled. MR MADASA Now, is there a child who stayed with you at your place who belonged to an organisation? MS NDWANE Yes, I stayed with my youngest sister, Nomfundu Ndwane, she was a member of the ANC Youth League, she was the Secretary of the ANC Youth League. MR MADASA What is here name? MS NDWANE Nomfundu Ndwane. MR MADASA Did you know Bulelwa who is now deceased? MS NDWANE Yes, I knew her. MR MADASA How did you know her? MS NDWANE We stayed in the same Block, Block F. She was a member of the street committee at that time in our street. Maybe I am mistaken at the moment, perhaps the street next to ours, maybe not our street per se but maybe the next street. MR MADASA As far as you know, did he have a good relationship with the SDU? MS NDWANE She had no problem with the SDU, they were just people to her, members of the community. Even with the Youth League, I wouldn't say she had a problem. It is just that I am not sure about the members of the Youth League, therefore I can't really say that she had a problem with the Youth League. MR MADASA You are aware that Bulelwa was killed? MS NDWANE Yes, I am aware. MR MADASA The day before she was killed, is there anything - was there any meeting called by the Youth League if he there has, tell us about that? MS NDWANE Yes, there was a meeting. MR MADASA Firstly, how do you know that the Youth League called a meeting on that day? MS NDWANE Two comrades came to my house, members of the Youth League, they wanted Nomfundu. MR MADASA Yes? Sorry, do you know their names? MS NDWANE The comrades? MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE No, I do not know them. When they arrived, they asked where Nomfundu was. I told them that she went to Nxlapo Section where she was visiting. MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE They left a message for me to tell her that there was a meeting at eight o'clock at a place where we called the FNB. MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE On the Sunday, they came back at about three o'clock. MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE Fortunately that is when Nomfundu arrived, coming from Nxlapo. They spoke to her outside, because that is where they met each other. MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE As she was going inside, I asked her if she had gotten her message that there was going to be a meeting. She said yes, there was going to be a meeting at eight o'clock in the evening. MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE In the evening Nomfundu prepared to go to the meeting. After about 15 minutes after she left, she came back. 15 Minutes elapsed after she had left, and she came back. MR MADASA Yes. MS NDWANE When I asked her how the meeting was, she said she did not know what was going on, she said she was asked to go home and wear her tracksuit and tackies. MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE When I wanted to know exactly what was going on, she said that the SDU had called them to Block E. MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE I said to her as she was not the only female member of the Youth League, I asked her to stay at home and lock the door, she must only open for me I said. I said I am going to a lady who has children who are members of the Youth League. I didn't understand. MR MADASA What did you say? MS NDWANE I said I am going to a lady who has children who were also members of the ANC Youth League. MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE I got to this lady, I said to her I was actually looking for her daughters. I said to them that my sister could not go with them, I had a problem because it was at night. When I got there there was a group of men, when I was about to knock at the door, they ran away. It was the Youth League. MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE I went inside, I told this lady that my sister could not go to this meeting because it was at night, and she was a girl. MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE Whilst I was speaking to this lady, a certain young man knocked on the door. He asked for a key from this lady. I saw this young man, I don't know if I should divulge his name. MR MADASA Yes please do. MS NDWANE It was Buthelezi's son, Thokozani. MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE This lady gave him the key. After I had spoken to this lady, I then said I am leaving. On the way back home, I came across these young men. MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE Something shocked me. MR MADASA What was that? MS NDWANE One of them said I told you that you were hurrying this thing up. MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE I greeted them, after I did that, I asked them what is going on here men, I said. They said no Ma'am, nothing is going on. MR MADASA Were there any girls amongst them? MS NDWANE No, it was just young men. MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE I then proceeded on my way home. MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE I got there and I slept. MR MADASA Did Nomfundu go to the meeting? MS NDWANE No, she did not go. MR MADASA And then the following day was Bulelwa's death? MS NDWANE In the morning the next day, I just heard a noise. Somebody then knocked on my door after the noise. MR MADASA (Indistinct) MS NDWANE Yes sir. MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE This lady asked me if I had heard that the gun shots that were fired the previous night, they were used on Bulelwa. MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE After I heard I left to go to the other women that were on my street, I told them that we should go and see where Bulelwa was killed. MR MADASA Did you go to see? MS NDWANE Yes, I did go. Her corpse was there on the road, but it was covered. There were men standing around. MR MADASA Did the community gather there? MS NDWANE Yes, the community did gather. Not a lot of people, there was not even 100 people, just a group. MR MADASA Did you remain there at Bulelwa's corpse? MS NDWANE We stood there, listened. There were already some comrades there. I remember that we spoke to comrade Buthelezi. He said that we have found Bulelwa's corpse. He said that they had not slept the whole night, just looking over the corpse. MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE After that, we went back home because I was preparing to go to work. MR MADASA Do you know of the meeting that was called by Buthelezi at F? MS NDWANE I don't know what the meeting was about because he called a lot of meetings as he ... MR MADASA Okay, let me ask you this, do you know Buthelezi? MS NDWANE Yes, I do. MR MADASA Did he belong to any organisation? MS NDWANE He was a member of the Block, Block F. MR MADASA Did he belong to a political organisation? MS NDWANE I wouldn't know, I wasn't used to the man. MR MADASA Do you know that a meeting was called to form a new SDU for Block F by Buthelezi? MS NDWANE Yes, I am aware. MR MADASA Did you go to that meeting? MS NDWANE I was present. MR MADASA Was Bulelwa at that meeting? MS NDWANE She was present. MR MADASA Were you told why the meeting was called? MS NDWANE We were told that a new SDU was going to be formed. MR MADASA Who told you that, who called the meeting? MS NDWANE I couldn't be sure about that, I don't know who the Chairperson of the meeting was, however comrade Buthelezi is one of the people who said that this meeting has been called, because they were going to form a new SDU. MR MADASA Did Bulelwa talk at that meeting? MS NDWANE Yes, she spoke. MR MADASA What did she say? MS NDWANE She asked if it was important for a new SDU to be formed where there was a SDU existing at the time. MR MADASA Yes? MS NDWANE I am not sure how she answered. MR MADASA Was money collected at that meeting? MS NDWANE No, money was not collected, however, R50-00 per house was meant to be collected. MR MADASA Had Bulelwa asked why is it necessary to form a new SDU when there was one in existence? MS NDWANE Yes, I heard her ask that. MR MADASA Did anyone respond to her question? MS NDWANE Certainly there should have been somebody who answered. However, I was not interested in listening to the answer. MR MADASA What did you do after the question, did you leave the meeting? MS NDWANE I did not leave the meeting, but I was not interested. MR MADASA Why did you loose interest in the matter? MS NDWANE The reason why I lost interest, is because a new SDU was going to be formed, meanwhile there was one in existence. Also I was not happy about the fact that we had to pop out R50-00 each house. MR MADASA Did you want the new SDU to be formed? MS NDWANE I was not interested in the new SDU. MR MADASA Were you not interested to know why it was necessary to form a new SDU? MS NDWANE The reason why I was not interested in the reasoning, is because I stayed with someone who was a member of the ANC Youth League. The reason why I was unhappy was because I found out that they wanted to also use girls in this new SDU that they were forming. CHAIRPERSON At what stage of meeting did you hear that the purpose of the meeting was to form a new SDU? MS NDWANE Could you repeat the question please. CHAIRPERSON At what stage did you hear that the purpose of the meeting was to form the new SDU? MS NDWANE After they had already said, however I had already heard that the ANC Youth League wanted to form a new SDU because they were saying that their parents were being attacked. CHAIRPERSON So before you went to the meeting, you knew that the meeting was going to be about the forming of a new SDU? MS NDWANE As I have already said, I stayed with someone who was a member of the ANC Youth League. She would complain to me of some things, she would tell me that she is a member of the ANC Youth League but she did not know what was going on. She was not clear of what was going on. However, I later found out that they used to hide information from her because the ANC Youth League said I am quite close to the SDU. CHAIRPERSON Prior to going to the meeting, did you know that the meeting was going to discuss the formation of a new SDU? MS NDWANE I was not clear. CHAIRPERSON You only learnt that for the first time at the meeting? MS NDWANE I could put it like that. CHAIRPERSON You nevertheless continued to remain at the meeting? MS NDWANE I did not stay until the end of the meeting. CHAIRPERSON You were present when Bulelwa asked why it was necessary to form a new SDU? MS NDWANE I was present. CHAIRPERSON After she had asked the question, you then suddenly lost interest in the meeting? MS NDWANE I lost interest, I was disinterested from the time they even mentioned that they were forming a new SDU. CHAIRPERSON You didn't bother to find out why it was necessary to form a new SDU? MS NDWANE I did not ask. MR MADASA You yourself was not in favour of the formation of the new SDU? MS NDWANE I did not agree with that because I knew that there was a SDU already in existence. MR MADASA You were not in favour of the formation of the new SDU? MS NDWANE I was not in favour. MR MADASA Was the community supportive of the new formation of the SDU? MS NDWANE No, they did not support that idea. However ... CHAIRPERSON Did you hear anyone at the meeting speaking in favour of the formation of the SDU? MS NDWANE Nobody. CHAIRPERSON This different view that you are talking about, what are they? MS NDWANE In a meeting everybody views, or everybody says what they think, gives their viewpoint. CHAIRPERSON Then how do you know that the people were not in favour of the establishment of the new SDU? MR MADASA Sorry Mr Chairman, the witness with due respect has told the Committee that at that meeting there was division as to the formation of the new SDU, that is what she said. CHAIRPERSON But she said no one spoke against that, no one spoke in favour of the SDU? MR MADASA She said there was division amongst the people who attended. CHAIRPERSON I want to know what division, what were the people saying? MR MADASA What were the people saying? MS NDWANE Some of the people were against the SDU, as Bulelwa said or asked if it was necessary to form a new SDU, she asked if this was not going to cause conflict. MR MADASA I have no further questions Your Worship. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA . CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. Ms Ndwane, is it correct that Bulelwa and Buthelezi were staying in Block F? MS NDWANE That is correct. MR MAPOMA And both of them were leaders in the community structures in Block F? MS NDWANE Correct. MR MAPOMA Now in that meeting that you are talking about, was there at any stage where some people were not allowed to talk because they are women? MS NDWANE I am not sure about that. MR MAPOMA Thank you, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni? MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Ndwane, where is this Nomfundu Ndwane today? MS NDWANE She is around, but not here. MR SIBANYONI Not here at the hearings? MS NDWANE No, she is not here in the hall. MR SIBANYONI Where exactly is she? MS NDWANE She is in the township. MR SIBANYONI And then since when was she a member of the ANC Youth League, when did she become a member of the ANC Youth League? MS NDWANE She became a member of the ANC Youth League after being recruited by other girls who were staying at Block F, who were already members of the ANC Youth League. MR SIBANYONI And when was that? MS NDWANE In 1993, before December. I can't remember, at the time of this incident, it hadn't been a long time since she had joined. MR SIBANYONI Could it be July or August or September, can you estimate a month? MS NDWANE I think it was around July, but I am not sure. MR SIBANYONI We have heard from applicants that there were generally complaints about the Youth League, the ANC Youth League, among others that the Youth League was hijacking cars, looting tuckshops - were you also aware of that since you were staying with a member of the ANC Youth League? MS NDWANE As I have already said, Nomfundu was not clear of certain issues. She did not tell me of such. MR SIBANYONI So you are saying you were not aware that generally in the community you were staying in, people were being killed, cars hijacked and spaza shops looted. Let me separate my question were you aware of those rumours or were you not aware? MS NDWANE Yes, I have heard such rumours. MR SIBANYONI You heard them from the community, is that correct? MS NDWANE Yes. MR SIBANYONI Did you also hear that the people who were suspected of those deeds, were members of the ANC Youth League? MS NDWANE I am not sure exactly who was guilty. We would hear that bakeries are being looted, tuckshops, people had been killed, but nobody ever said that all that was being done by the ANC Youth League. MR SIBANYONI Did you hear about the death of Majosi who was the member of the South African Communist Party? MS NDWANE Yes. MR SIBANYONI Did you hear that the Youth League apologised for his death? MS NDWANE No. I did not hear that. MR SIBANYONI Did your sister Nomfundu never discuss the issue with you? MS NDWANE As I have already said, Nomfundu would go to the meetings. She was elected as a Secretary, but she never even had a book for the minutes of the meeting. MR SIBANYONI But exactly as a Secretary, she was supposed to be in a better position to know more about the activities of the ANC Youth League than an ordinary member, she was in the Executive. What is your comment about that? MS NDWANE Yes, I agree but she did not like what she was doing. But as a mother or sort of a mother for her, I said to her she should be a member of the ANC Youth League, because other children were as well. I did not particularly see a reason why she shouldn't join the ANC Youth League, so I encouraged her. MR SIBANYONI I heard you saying that you were suspected or you were regarded as being close to the SDU's, am I correct? MS NDWANE Yes, they suspected that I was Nxeba Sonti's sister. They perceived me as Nxeba Sonti's sister. MR SIBANYONI Were you close to the SDU's? MS NDWANE I was used to them. Some of them were my home boys. MR SIBANYONI Were you aware of the differences or problems the SDU's had with the ANC Youth League? MS NDWANE No, I was not aware. Because even if we would meet, we would not talk about problems of the SDU or ANC Youth League, we just talked about personal things. MR SIBANYONI Some of the applicants told this Committee that the SDU's attempted on several occasions, to hold a meeting with the ANC Youth League, but that the League was avoiding such a meeting. Are you aware of that or not? MS NDWANE I have no knowledge of such, the only thing I know is that Nomfundu was told to get dressed and go to a meeting called by the ANC Youth League at Block E. But because she did not go to the meeting, I never did find out why they were called to the meeting. I am not aware about other meetings. MR SIBANYONI You said the meeting was supposed to be held at a place you call FNB, where is this place in relation to the shack where Bulelwa was staying? MS NDWANE It is not too far, it is quite close. MR SIBANYONI You said Thokozani Buthelezi, that is Mr Buthelezi's son, asked for a key, what key was that? MS NDWANE I don't know what key this was. However, I thought that it was a key that belonged to a shack that was opposite this lady where I was, where these children would gather regularly. MR SIBANYONI From the day Bulelwa asked questions at the meeting about the formation of the new SDU, how many days thereafter was she killed? MS NDWANE I cannot remember. MR SIBANYONI Were there many days, a week or less than a week? MS NDWANE I don't want to lie, I can't remember. MR SIBANYONI You said you were woken up by somebody in the morning, who asked you whether you heard some gun shots, who is this person who woke you up? MS NDWANE It is Zwandile. MR SIBANYONI What is the surname? MS NDWANE I don't know what his surname is. MR SIBANYONI Did you personally hear those gun shots during that night? MS NDWANE Yes, I did hear the gun shots. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions. MR MALAN Ms Ndwane, did I hear you correctly saying that when you got to Bulelwa's corpse, that Buthelezi was there saying to you that he did not sleep the whole of the night and he was looking over the corpse? MS NDWANE I did say that. MR MALAN And this is Thokozani Buthelezi's father? MS NDWANE Correct. MR MALAN He was guarding at the corpse the whole of the night? MS NDWANE That is what he said, he said they were guarding the corpse the whole night. MR MALAN Did you see any of the SDU members there? MS NDWANE I don't remember seeing members of the SDU, I just saw members of the community because we had also gone to see the corpse as part of the community. I did not really notice any member of the SDU. MR MALAN Did I hear you further correctly when Mr Madasa led your evidence that you were saying that you were told that that meeting at Block F was called and that a new SDU was going to be formed? Is that correct? MS NDWANE Correct. MR MALAN And then you were asked who called you and who told you and you said you don't know. Is that correct? MS NDWANE I am not sure about that sir. Are you saying that I said that I did not know who called the meeting, I said the meeting was called by the members of the Block, the one person that I noticed was Mr Buthelezi. MR MALAN Yes, but you were asked - let me put the question to you again, when that meeting was called and when you were told to come to the meeting, did they tell you what the meeting was about? MS NDWANE No, you are not supposed to be told what the meeting is about when you are being called to a meeting, you hear when you are at the meeting. MR MALAN So at that stage you had no knowledge of the new SDU to be formed? MS NDWANE At the time the meeting was called, I did not know that they were going to form a new SDU. MR MALAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Motata? MR MOTATA Thank you Chairperson. Ms Ndwane, did Nomfundu tell you the name of the members who comprised their Executive Committee of the ANC Youth League? MS NDWANE No, she never told me. MR MOTATA You said when she came back from the meeting, she never carried any book whatsoever. Do you recall saying so? MS NDWANE I did say so. MR MOTATA Did she describe what kind of Secretary she was in the Executive of the Youth League? MS NDWANE I never asked for details. MR MOTATA I am asking you this because in the bundle of documents we have here, there is one David Marema who says he was the Secretary General of the ANC Youth League during 1993. MS NDWANE I don't know that person. She just told me that she was the Secretary of the ANC Youth League. I am not sure whether I am referring to the ANC Youth League Block F, however she was the Secretary of the ANC Youth League. MR MOTATA Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions. CHAIRPERSON You were not a member of the SDU, were you? MS NDWANE No, I was not a member. CHAIRPERSON You did not patrol together with the SDU, did you? MS NDWANE I never did. CHAIRPERSON How did you know that the SDU patrolled all the Blocks? MS NDWANE As a member of the community, I knew that the SDU patrolled all the Blocks, but I was not patrolling with them. CHAIRPERSON You were not aware of any complaints against the SDU? MS NDWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Were there no complaints against the SDU from Block F? MS NDWANE I never heard anyone complaining. CHAIRPERSON Do you - and I take it that the SDU also patrolled Block F? MS NDWANE I did not hear well. CHAIRPERSON The SDU according to you, also patrolled Block F? MS NDWANE I think so. CHAIRPERSON You resided at Block F? MS NDWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did you see the members of the SDU patrolling Block F? MS NDWANE We would sleep at night, certain that they are patrolling the area. I never made certain that they actually do patrol the area. CHAIRPERSON Do you know of any reason why some people in Block F would want to form a new SDU? MS NDWANE I think I already said that the reason I heard about was that they were forming a new SDU because they were saying that their parents were being attacked, I am not certain who exactly was attacking their parents. CHAIRPERSON Whose parents were being attacked? MS NDWANE Parents to the children who wanted to form a new SDU. CHAIRPERSON The meeting that you attended, was it attended by the Youth at which the decision to form a new SDU was being discussed? MS NDWANE I am not sure if the Youth was there, because when you talk about the ANC Youth League, it is not somebody - it is not, I cannot put a face to the ANC Youth League, I don't know the people. CHAIRPERSON Are you aware of any reason why the residents, the parents of Block F would want to form a new SDU? MS NDWANE I have no such knowledge because I was not a part of those parents. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Madasa? MR MADASA No questions, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA . CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Ndwane. WITNESS EXCUSED MR MADASA Mr Chairman, may I call Matthews Mohlakwane? CHAIRPERSON Mr Mohlakwane, what language are you going to speak? MR MOHLAKWANE Sotho sir. MATTHEWS PISTO MOHLAKWANE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Mohlakwane, in 1993, where did you live? MR MOHLAKWANE Muleleki Extension 2. MR MADASA Which Block? MR MOHLAKWANE Block D, sir. MR MADASA Are you married? MR MOHLAKWANE Yes sir. MR MADASA Were you so married in 1993? MR MOHLAKWANE That is correct sir. MR MADASA Were you working? MR MOHLAKWANE That is correct sir. MR MADASA Where is your original home? MR MOHLAKWANE Matatiele sir. MR MADASA Do you know the ANC Youth League, do you know of such an organisation which existed in 1993? MR MOHLAKWANE Yes. MR MADASA Did you know its members? MR MOHLAKWANE I would only count two of those members of the ANC Youth League. MR MADASA Sorry Mr Chairman, I didn't get that. Did he say there were certain members he knew? Did you say you knew some members of the ANC Youth League? MR MOHLAKWANE At that time, I only knew two of the members of the ANC Youth League. MR MADASA Who are those? MR MOHLAKWANE It is Ndlamini and it is Lucky. MR MADASA Do you know Lucky's surname? MR MOHLAKWANE I don't know his surname. MR MADASA Did you know the SDU? MR MOHLAKWANE Yes, I did. MR MADASA Did you know its members? MR MOHLAKWANE Yes, I do. MR MADASA Did you belong to any organisation? MR MOHLAKWANE Yes. MR MADASA Which one? MR MOHLAKWANE ANC sir. MR MADASA Were you part of any structure in the community? Did you belong to any structure in the community, street committee, something like that? MR MOHLAKWANE No sir. MR MADASA Pardon? MR MOHLAKWANE No sir. MR MADASA Did the ANC Youth League have a problem with you? MR MOHLAKWANE Yes. MR MADASA What was it? MR MOHLAKWANE They assaulted me. MR MADASA Okay, before we come to the assault, I mean did they have a problem with you as a person? MR MOHLAKWANE No. MR MADASA Listen, don't rush. Were there any allegations against you emanating from the ANC Youth League members? MR MOHLAKWANE No sir. MR MADASA You said they attacked you? MR MOHLAKWANE Yes sir. MR MADASA Why were you attacked? MR MOHLAKWANE I can't hear anything. MR MADASA Did you understand my previous questions? MR MOHLAKWANE I did not understand you well sir. MR SIBANYONI From where did you not understand, because you have been giving answers to a number of questions? MR MOHLAKWANE The last question sir ... (tape ends) ... you mean myself sir? I did not ... MR MADASA Did the ANC Youth League have a problem against you? MR MOHLAKWANE No. MR MADASA Why were you attacked? MR MOHLAKWANE My brother-in-law arrived. He was having boxes, there were shoes inside. He said I should put those shoes in my house. MR MADASA Yes? MR MOHLAKWANE I said to him I have no space to keep those shoes in my house. MR MADASA Yes? MR MOHLAKWANE I accompanied him to Mr Zulu to ask for Mr Zulu to keep those shoes for him. MR MADASA Yes? MR MOHLAKWANE Zulu agreed that he would keep those shoes. MR MADASA Yes? MR MOHLAKWANE On that day it was Saturday afternoon. MR MADASA Yes? MR MOHLAKWANE The following day, that is on Sunday, whilst I was still at my house, Ndlamini together with a few boys arrived at my place, with those boxes. MR MADASA They came with those boxes? MR MOHLAKWANE Yes, that is correct. MR MADASA Yes? MR MOHLAKWANE When they arrived, I did not ask them anything. I left. I went to Mr Radebe's place. Mr wife left to Kumalo. Whilst I was still relaxing at Rabede's place, my wife arrived with a taxi. MR MADASA Yes? MR MOHLAKWANE There was a big truck. When she alighted from the taxi, a group of boys came from that truck and attacked my wife. MR MADASA Who are those boys? MR MOHLAKWANE That is members of the ANC Youth League. MR MADASA Did you see them when they attacked your wife? MR MOHLAKWANE Yes. MR MADASA You did? MR MOHLAKWANE I was looking, yes, I did. MR MADASA Was it during the day? MR MOHLAKWANE Yes, it was during the day. MR MADASA I can't hear you. MR MOHLAKWANE Whilst they were attacking Radebe said to me, that people are attacking your wife. Then I went there to intervene and say it is better for me to die. When they saw me, they left my wife and came to me. MR MADASA Were they armed? MR MOHLAKWANE Yes, they were armed. MR MADASA With what? MR MOHLAKWANE With a short gun and a rifle. MR MADASA And what else? MR MOHLAKWANE And some sticks. MR MADASA How many were they? MR MOHLAKWANE It was a group, I was not able to count them. MR MADASA Did they assault your wife? CHAIRPERSON I think he said yes. MR MADASA With what? With what did they assault your wife? MR MOHLAKWANE They assaulted my wife with stones, with all those things and they were kicking her. MR MADASA How did they assault her? MR MOHLAKWANE From Radebe's place, the three of us we were taken the three of us, we were taken to a veld. They were saying they were going to kill us. MR SIBANYONI Who was taken to the veld, were you together with your wife? MR MOHLAKWANE They left my wife when I appeared, they took myself together with the other two whom I was relaxing with. MR MADASA It was you and Radebe, who was the other person? MR MOHLAKWANE Radebe was the owner of the house, the other one was his brother-in-law, then the other one was his neighbour. So they left Radebe and they took us, the three of us. MR MADASA What did they do to you when they reached the veld? MR MOHLAKWANE We were taken next to the river bank where Ndlamini tied my hands at the back. When they completed, they set fire and they sent boys to go and buy petrol. MR MADASA Were you tied? MR MOHLAKWANE Yes, I was tied. Then the community came, members of the community came. They helped us because they called these boys aside, then those men accompanied me home. MR MADASA You were saved? MR MOHLAKWANE Yes, I was saved. MR MADASA Do you know the reason for the attack, do you know why you were attacked? MR MOHLAKWANE Whilst I was walking, whilst I was being beaten, saying that I am informer Mowenpe. MR MADASA You were accused of being an informer? MR MOHLAKWANE People who are called Mowenpe were Inkatha members. MR MADASA Were you accused of being an informer, therefore an Inkatha member? Were you accused of being a Mowenpe and therefore an Inkatha member? MR MOHLAKWANE That is correct sir. MR MADASA Did anything further happen to you, after you were saved by the community? MR MOHLAKWANE No sir. MR MADASA Is there any other incident that the ANC Youth League caused which you witnessed? MR MOHLAKWANE No sir. MR MADASA Did you hear of Majosi's death? MR MOHLAKWANE Yes sir. MR MADASA Did you witness that? Did you see what happened to him? MR MOHLAKWANE Yes. I saw the corpses. MR MADASA Of whom? MR MOHLAKWANE Majosi and his two cousins. MR MADASA Do you know who killed them? MR MOHLAKWANE I learnt that it was members of the Youth. MR MADASA Who told you that? MR MOHLAKWANE It was his sister. MR MADASA Is there any other incident that you know of besides Majosi and yourself? CHAIRPERSON Which would also be hearsay. MR MOHLAKWANE No. MR MADASA No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA . CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA You said you learnt that the attackers of Mr Majosi were members of the Youth, were they referred to by the person who informed you as members of the ANC Youth League necessarily, or the youth of the community? MR MOHLAKWANE He said it was the Youth. MR MAPOMA Thank you sir, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Why was your wife attacked? MR MOHLAKWANE I do not know the reason for my wife's attack, I really do not know the reason. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, no further questions Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan? MR MALAN No questions, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motata? MR MOTATA I've got no questions, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Thank you Mr Mohlakwane. You may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED . CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Madasa? MR MADASA Mr Chairman, that is the applicant's case. APPLICANT'S CASE CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, do you intend leading evidence? MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson, I intend leading evidence from the side of the victims. CHAIRPERSON Very well, we will listen to that evidence at two o'clock. We will now take the lunch adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Thank you sir. CHAIRPERSON Would you perhaps outline to us, is the basis or what is the basis of the opposition? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, the families oppose the amnesty because they say that the truth has not come out, in fact they contest most of the allegations which have been set out from the applicants' case. They want in a way to give their perspective of the actual events they say took place, and now in that regard, Chairperson, there are some witnesses who are members of the ANC Youth League. One of those witnesses whom I am going to call now, Chairperson, is Tusaneng Lekabe, who has been referred to by the applicants on a number of occasions as to what happened on that day, and so he will show what actually happened and where the differences are between the versions of the applicants and the versions of the victims. Then we have those who were captured, but released. Some of them feel that the way they were captured, has not been set out the way it actually happened and the injuries they suffered and the treatment they were subjected to, has not been given here. The family members in particular the mothers, of the deceased, want to show what happened on that day and their role before their children happened to be killed, and they want to show that, in fact they say that they are particularly concerned that an impression is given that they did not respond when there children were caught, whereas they did respond, but they were chased away by the applicants. It is along those lines, Chairperson, that this evidence is going to go. CHAIRPERSON Is it on the issue from the victims point of view, one of lack of full disclosure? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson, it is lack of full disclosure, but some of the witnesses from the side of the ANC Youth League, claim that what has been done, was not politically motivated. They have got a feeling that it was a pure criminal act. CHAIRPERSON Is the basis of the opposition therefore that one, there hasn't been a full disclosure, and secondly there was no political motive behind the killing? MR MAPOMA Absolutely. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well, would you call the first witness. MR MAPOMA May I call Tusaneng Lekabe. CHAIRPERSON How many witnesses do you propose calling Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA I propose calling three witnesses Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Are these three witnesses going to deal with the issue of full disclosure? MR MAPOMA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And what else? MR MAPOMA And political motivation, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. To the extent that it may be necessary, I think it is clear from what Mr Mapoma has said, that we will have to sit beyond today. I would like to inform the interpreters and the recording people that we will be here on Monday and we will run from Monday until we are finished. Mr Lekabe, what language are you going to speak? MR LEKABE I am going to speak Sotho sir. LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Lekabe, during December 1993, where did you reside? MR LEKABE I stayed in Muleleki Extension 2. MR MAPOMA Were you a member of any local structure of the community there? MR LEKABE That is correct My Lord. I was the Secretary General of our area, which is Muleleki Extension 2. We were under the umbrella of SANCO, and I was the Secretary, Information Secretary within the Youth League. MR MAPOMA So you were the Secretary General of the Civic Organisation? MR LEKABE That is correct My Lord. MR MAPOMA And the Secretary of the ANC Youth League? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MAPOMA Did you know, do you know Bulelwa who died on the 6th of December 1993? MR LEKABE Yes, I know her. She was a member of the Civic. She was a member of the Block Committee. Yes, I knew her. Because she was one member of the Civic in Block F. MR MAPOMA Now, between the ANC Youth League and SANCO was there any working relationship? MR LEKABE There was sir. MR MAPOMA Can you describe briefly what kind of working relationship did you have? MR LEKABE At times we patrolled together, until there was a separation, then we were told that the SDU will be operating at night. MR MAPOMA Sorry, I am asking the working relationship between the ANC Youth League and the Civic? MR LEKABE That is correct. The Civic is a much bigger structure, taking care of all the community. Every problem that arose, was reported to the Civic. CHAIRPERSON Were there any members of the ANC Youth League, who formed part of the Civic? MR LEKABE No sir. MR MAPOMA You said you were a member of the ANC Youth League, and also a member of the Civic, haven't you, you said so? MR LEKABE That is what I said. MR MAPOMA Now, can you just describe the working relationship that was there between the ANC Youth League and the Civic Organisation in Muleleki Extension? MR LEKABE I already said that all organisations within the township, reported to the Civic. There was a working relationship, we did not take sides. Everybody was accepted by the Civic. MR MAPOMA So are you saying the ANC Youth League was also reporting to the Civic, is that what you are saying? MR LEKABE That is correct My Lord. MR MAPOMA Now about Bulelwa in particular, was she having a working relationship with the ANC Youth League? MR LEKABE I would say yes because she was regarded as a leader. She used to sit down with them and give them MRice, they liked her. MR MAPOMA Do you recall the incident of the 6th of December 1993? MR LEKABE That is correct sir. On the 6th of December 1993, round about five past, if not ten past eight at night, the deceased Buthelezi came home crying, and he was shouting, he was saying oh, please, please and I tried to calm him down. I said Mr Buthelezi, calm down, speak so that we can understand what happened. He said no, comrade Bulelwa has passed away and I said how should I be of assistance. And he said Mr Mokoena said I must come and fetch you. There was another man, an inhabitant. MR MAPOMA So you say that Mr Buthelezi reported that Bulelwa has been killed? Then what did you do? MR LEKABE Mr Buthelezi was crying when he approached me. He said oh, no, Bulelwa has died. I said please calm down, you are crying, I can't hear what you are saying. He said Bulelwa is dead, and I am here, sent by Mr Mokoena to come and fetch you because at that time, there was another man, an ordinary inhabitant of the township. MR MAPOMA The Mr Buthelezi that you are talking about, is that Mr Buthelezi who was killed amongst the other youth? MR LEKABE That is the same person. MR MAPOMA Okay, continue then. Yes, I was together with another man who came to tell me something privately, and Mr Buthelezi said Mr Mokoena want me, and I wanted to go but that man who was a citizen of the township, said stop. You know very well, you are not in very good terms with these SDU men, now it will be easy for them to catch up with you and kill you. MR MAPOMA Were you not in good terms with the SDU's? MR LEKABE That is correct, we were not in good terms. MR MAPOMA What problems did you have with the SDU's? MR LEKABE My Lord, I can mention many problems. Even the community can support me on that. The first problem is related to when the community was saying we have an SDU, it is patrolling, but people keep on dying. At night when we come from work, we are harassed and assaulted. When I was asked, they said where are you from. MR MAPOMA No, before then. Let's go to this SDU, don't be fast please so as to allow the interpreters. Now, when was the SDU formed in Muleleki? MR LEKABE According to my knowledge the SDU in Muleleki was formed in May if not June. MR MAPOMA When it was formed, was the community involved? CHAIRPERSON May or June of which year? MR LEKABE 1993. MR MAPOMA Can you describe briefly how was it formed? MR LEKABE At the time Muleleki was still under construction. They were still busy with the building of toilets, and people gradually occupied their sites. If I remember well, people who resided in Block E and D were the first to form the SDU. MR MAPOMA Was the community involved in the formation of the SDU's? MR LEKABE No, My Lord. The community did not have an opportunity in taking part. MR MAPOMA Now, what problems were there with the SDU's? MR LEKABE I said there were many problems, because as the leaders of the community, all structures were supposed to report to us as the leaders of the community, but now they did not want to subscribe to us. They said we must subscribe under them. MR MAPOMA When you say us, what do you mean? As a Civic or as the ANC Youth League? MR LEKABE Yes, the Civic. MR MAPOMA Now, as the Civic, did you call a community meeting to address the problems that you had with them? MR LEKABE Yes, a meeting was called to discuss this issue. MR MAPOMA Are there any other problems which were highlighted in that meeting about the activities of the SDU's? MR LEKABE Yes, sir. We explained to the community that the members of the SDU are giving us problems, the way the operate. When we called them to come and appear before you, they don't want to, now we don't know what steps to follow. MR MAPOMA The way they operate, what do you mean, what way did they operate? MR LEKABE I told you already that there were many problems, for instance when they patrolled at night, when they pass in the street and they see that your lights are still on, they get into your house, assault you, ask you why don't you go to bed. Some of the women were being raped, people were killed. When they patrolled sir, when they found you outside, they would assault you. When they pass by the road, because that place did not have street lights as yet, now when there was light in your house, they would get into your house, and ask you why don't you go to bed. MR MAPOMA Now, let's come to this SDU. Have you seen all the applicants? MR LEKABE Yes, I saw them but ... MR MAPOMA Were the applicants part of the SDU you are talking about? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MAPOMA Now, when these problems were highlighted in a meeting, was the SDU present in that meeting? MR LEKABE They were present My Lord, because the person who was always there is Tsepo and Nxeba. MR MAPOMA When these accusations were given against them, what was their response? MR LEKABE When these accusations were taken out, they were not happy at all. They then said SANCO wants to rule them and yet, they were independent. CHAIRPERSON Is SANCO and Civic one and the same thing? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MAPOMA Now was ANC Youth League part of the meeting? MR LEKABE Yes, every organisation reported to the Civic. They were members of the township, so they were present. CHAIRPERSON Now when these problems were highlighted, are there any members of the ANC Youth League who were saying something also about the SDU's? MR LEKABE Every member of the community has the right to speak at the meeting, called by the Civic. CHAIRPERSON Did members of the ANC Youth League speak at this meeting and say anything about the SDU's? MR LEKABE They spoke but they did not say anything bad. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. Now was there a specific response from the SDU to the ANC Youth League? MR LEKABE Yes, there is something that the SDU said. MR MAPOMA What is it? MR LEKABE Chairperson, I have already told you that we had problems. They said it was better as members of the committee, Sectional Committee, shouldn't we fight with you because you don't want to understand. They wanted to go straight to the community, they were supposed to come to the Civic to report because everybody had to start first at the Civics. MR MAPOMA My question is, is there anything that the SDU members said about the ANC Youth League or is there any specific response that was directed to the ANC Youth League from the SDU in that meeting? MR LEKABE Yes, sir there is something they said. MR MAPOMA What is it? MR LEKABE They said you members of the ANC Youth League, you must better keep quiet. MR MAPOMA Okay. Now, let's come back to the incident of the killing of Bulelwa. You were saying Mr Buthelezi told you that Bulelwa has been killed, and was crying and he called you. What did you do thereafter? MR LEKABE I did not go, but at that time because the community heard Mr Buthelezi's cry, they came together and they said, guys you are aware that the SDU is now attacking and our leaders are now dying. And it was rumoured that during that December time they were going to attack leaders of the community. Now we had to stand together to protect the community. MR MAPOMA Then what did you do as the community then? MR LEKABE As the community, we left, we searched for members of the SDU, we did not find some of them until we arrived at Blanko. MR MAPOMA Now, when you say as the community, do you mean members of the ANC Youth League were involved also and other people of the community other than ANC Youth League? MR LEKABE The members of the community and members of the ANC Youth League. CHAIRPERSON Now, you arrived at Blanko's place, what happened? MR LEKABE When we arrived there, he was sleeping because he opened the door and he said, what is happening. Now the answer we gave him was, you guys caused trouble and thereafter you go to bed. We want you to tell us where some of your members are, because even the guns that you use against the community, were bought by the same community. MR MAPOMA Was Blanko attacked by the community? MR LEKABE That is correct My Lord. CHAIRPERSON What about the ANC Youth League? MR LEKABE I said they were part of the community, so they attacked. MR SIBANYONI Now after the attack, where did you go? MR LEKABE We went to the long grass and we laid there. MR MAPOMA Yes, and after that what happened? MR LEKABE After quite some time, one of us said guys, the members of the SDU are coming. Then we took different directions, trying to run for cover because they were already shooting. We took different directions. MR MAPOMA Were you armed? MR LEKABE Yes, we were armed. MR MAPOMA Did you hit back? MR LEKABE We did not hit back. They were unexpected sir. MR MAPOMA Then describe what happened when they arrived. MR LEKABE There were many of us, even members of the community. Now, at a place where we thought we were hidden, we were there for a few minutes. I think just after five minutes, gun shots were heard and we said they are very close, let's run away. We then ran to Block A. There is a house where we got into. I think we were six if not seven in number. We stayed there. The first two went out to check outside for, they were quiet, they didn't come back and myself and the deceased Ali Zulu went out. We saw members of the SDU coming, they were armed and... MR MAPOMA Now just there, can you describe who exactly did you see? MR LEKABE Who are you referring to sir, members of the SDU? MR MAPOMA Yes, can you tell who were they, these members of the SDU? MR LEKABE Yes, I have them. Nxeba was among them, Oscar was there, Rooivalk was also there, some of them I do not remember because the one mentioned earlier on as Wehna was also there. I said to the deceased don't run away, and I grabbed him by his hand, but fear overcame him and he ran away. He tried to jump over the fence behind where we were sleeping, but he could not jump, and then he fell. Because they were on his tail, Nxeba himself had a spear and he stabbed him on the cheek with that spear. Now he was crying, blood was spitting, Nxeba lifted him up. Among the members of the SDU who were approaching was Nxeba and then on the 5th, we had an altercation with Nxeba because of a site they wanted to give to someone, and he said I knew that I will catch up with you. CHAIRPERSON Will you please speak very slowly so that the interpreters may have time to interpret what you are saying. MR LEKABE Thank you sir. I said when we went out, we saw the members of the SDU and I grabbed the deceased by his hand and I said please, don't try to run away, I know them, they cannot speak with people, all they do is just fight. But because fear overcame him, he ran away and he wanted to jump over the fence, he couldn't, he fell. Nxeba arrived and he stabbed him on the cheek with a spear, then blood came out and then he lifted him and he came back with him. There was another group of men coming. I already told you that on Sunday the 5th, I had an altercation with Wehna and he said I knew that I will catch you, because I told you that this week will not even pass. CHAIRPERSON Now, what became of Ali? MR LEKABE I was talking with Oscar and next to him, the others tried to shoot at me. The one who had 765, tried to shoot me three times, but the magazine went out. Rooivalk tried to shoot me with an AK47, it stuck. Oscar himself shot at the deceased on the chest with six bullets, and then he spit on the floor. MR MAPOMA Was there any shootout between you and the SDU's then? MR LEKABE No sir. There was no shooting out. MR MAPOMA Now after Ali was shot at, what happened? MR LEKABE When Nxeba realised that I was not shot at, one could see that he was sweating. He said guys, you must know that he is their leader, if you kill him, the community is going to ask why did he not come to account. CHAIRPERSON What happened, what did they do with you? MR LEKABE My Lord, we walked through the township and just before Block D, I think we passed about three shacks, they knocked at a certain shack. They were already kicking and one boy came out of the shack, I think he was naked, he didn't have clothes on. Nxeba stabbed him then they put him back, so that he can put on his clothes. Then the other one came out. MR MAPOMA Do you know who the boy was? MR LEKABE Because of the commotion I cannot, but I do not know him, but I can identify him if he appears today. MR MAPOMA At what part of the body was he stabbed? MR LEKABE He was naked, Nxeba stabbed him on the hands and on the ribs, he tried to block with his hands. MR MAPOMA Then what happened? What became of the boy? MR LEKABE I said there was an Albino boy inside the house, when he came out of the house, they said no, he cannot see at night, go back, we don't know what you want here. Then we walked along that street and they went into another house to fetch another boy. MR MAPOMA Now, when you went along, was this boy who was stabbed, taken along? MR LEKABE That is correct, My Lord. MR MAPOMA Okay, he went along then, where to? MR LEKABE They tried to round us up. They managed to catch up with another one, they came with him. Because some of them are guarding you and then some get into the shacks, looking for other boys. MR MAPOMA Now, you went along? MR LEKABE I remember one boy was taken out of the house and he was already crying. Oscar spoke to him and then he asked me whether I know him, and I said no. You can ask him, verify it with him, he does not know me at all. It is my first time to see him. MR MAPOMA Why did Oscar ask if the boy knows you, do you know? MR LEKABE I think that boy was already crying when he came out, he said he arrived the previous night from Kumalo, he knew nothing of what was happening and Oscar left him and then he said he must leave. MR MOTATA So you went along, where to? MR LEKABE We went to Block F, where Bulelwa's corpse was. I think there were already three if not two young boys who were captured. Nxeba, but I do not remember whether it was him, but he is present here. CHAIRPERSON When you proceeded to Block F, how many of you had been captured by Nxeba and oscer's group? MR LEKABE We were three or four, I can't remember well. CHAIRPERSON Can you still recall who were with you? MR LEKABE Yes, I still remember one. CHAIRPERSON Who are they? MR LEKABE Well, I do not know his name, but he is present. CHAIRPERSON Where is he? MR LEKABE He is among the audience. MR MOTATA Could you point him out, let him rise or stand up? MR LEKABE The white T-shirt. CHAIRPERSON What is your name sir? MR LEKABE His name is Jacob, sir. MR MAPOMA Jacob Moloi, Mr Chairman. MR LEKABE I do not remember the other one, but he is also present here. CHAIRPERSON Where is he? MR LEKABE I am trying to look for him. There. CHAIRPERSON What is your name sir? MR MOKOENA Motibang Mokoena is my name. CHAIRPERSON Who else? MR LEKABE I do not remember the other one. We were three or four, I do not remember. CHAIRPERSON You don't remember the names of the other person, or you don't remember whether they were present? MR LEKABE I do not know the name. CHAIRPERSON The name of the third person? MR LEKABE Yes sir. MR MAPOMA On your arrival at Block F, what happened? MR LEKABE As I said, when we arrived at Block F, they said to me, I should go to the shack. I went to the shack again and I went back again to them to the SDU's, and they were together with the members of the community. MR MAPOMA Now, you said when you went into the shack, there were already some who were inside the shack, how many were there? MR LEKABE There were three sir. CHAIRPERSON There were seven of you at that stage? MR LEKABE Yes, we were seven. Those I came with, they proceeded to the shack, then I remained behind. MR MAPOMA Can you tell who those who were already in the shack, were, their names? MR LEKABE Those who were already in the shack, some of them have since died. I don't know the names. They knew me as the leader of the community, but I didn't know some of their names. MR MAPOMA Now you were allowed to leave the shack and to go to some people around Bulelwa's body, then what happened? CHAIRPERSON Were you allowed to go there, or were you instructed to go where Bulelwa's body was? MR LEKABE They did not instruct me, I myself went there. MR MAPOMA Were you free to move around? MR LEKABE Yes, I was free because whilst we were still at Bulelwa's corpse, among the community there was one who said what time was it, but at that time it was already sunrise. Then somebody said if the Police come, we are going to fight with them because it has already been eight hours since she has died. From those members of the SDU, that is Vusi, Nxeba and Oscar and Alex, I don't remember the fifth one. That is where Oscar, when I returned to the shack, he tried to shoot me, and Mr Mokoena prevented him to do so. MR MAPOMA Then what happened? CHAIRPERSON From where the members of the SDU find you up to the spot where Bulelwa's body was, were you just walking freely? MR LEKABE That is correct sir, I was walking freely. CHAIRPERSON Could you have gone home if you wanted to? MR LEKABE I wouldn't try to go home, because the way they were armed, they would kill me. But I just said to myself, let me just go like some of those who were captured. CHAIRPERSON Did they order you to go with them to the spot where Bulelwa's body had been found? MR LEKABE That is correct sir. CHAIRPERSON So you were not walking freely then? MR LEKABE It was like that that I was not walking freely, but that is where Nxeba said he was holding me with his hand. I was walking freely like any other person who was walking with him. CHAIRPERSON Were you being held by Nxeba? MR LEKABE No sir, he didn't hold me with his hand. MR MAPOMA Then what did you do, what happened? CHAIRPERSON You were at the stage when you were telling us that once at the shack, Oscar tried to shoot at you. Did he succeed in shooting you? MR LEKABE No sir, he did not succeed because Mr Mokoena prevented him. CHAIRPERSON What did Oscar do? MR LEKABE He had an AK47, he pulled that AK47 to, as if he was shooting me, then Mr Mokoena pushed him aside and prevented him. Then Oscar turned to me and said Whena and Tusang are your friends. If you say I myself have killed Bulelwa, I am going to shoot all of you and go to prison. That is Oscar. MR MAPOMA Just repeat what he said. MR LEKABE Whena and Tusang, you Tusaneng and your friends, I am going to shoot all of you and go to prison. MR MAPOMA Was that because you were alleging that he had shot Bulelwa? MR LEKABE No, I heard that for the first time from him. CHAIRPERSON Did he give as a reason for shooting you, the fact that you had said that he had shot Bulelwa? MR LEKABE That is correct. As I said that among the community there was one who mentioned time, although I don't remember what time he said it was. Then he said when the Police arrive, we are going to fight them because the deceased has been killed for a long time. I have already mentioned those who were in front of me, as to whether are you not going to call the Police, because as a leader of the community, I would say that as we are here. CHAIRPERSON Would you tell the Committee, from the time when Oscar said he was going to shoot you until when you left the place, what happened, how did you happen to leave the place? You told us that Oscar tried to shoot you, but Mokoena intervened, then Oscar said to you he was going to shoot all of you, because you are saying that he had killed Bulelwa. MR LEKABE If we say, if we allege that he killed Bulelwa, he will shoot at us. CHAIRPERSON Yes, now what happened thereafter, after he had said that, what happened? MR LEKABE I already said that among the members of the community, one person mentioned time and it came to my mind that when the Police arrive here, we are going to be at loggerheads with them about the long time that the deceased spent there. I already told you the members of the SDU that were around me, now when they responded, let me start with Oscar, he said you know that I came back from prison on Thursday. Now the Police might take me in again. Nxeba responded by saying you know that the Internal Stability is looking for me. Vusi also added, he said guys, you know that all members of the Internal Stability Unit have my name, Alex withdrew, he did not respond. I said to them guys, if there is any one among the members of the community who has transport, please provided us with transport so that we can go and fetch the Police because we wanted to go to the hospital, that is how I escaped. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is that all? MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Is there any cross-examination Mr Madasa? MR MADASA Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA Who did you discuss with the question of getting transport? MR LEKABE I discussed this with members of the SDU and members of the community were present, listening at that time. CHAIRPERSON The members of the SDU that you discussed that matter with, would that include Oscar? MR LEKABE Yes. MR MADASA Yes, who else? MR LEKABE Vusi Mthembu, Mike Sonti, Alex. MR MADASA Who is Alex? MR LEKABE He is not present here among the applicants. CHAIRPERSON What did they say to this idea of you going to get a car? MR LEKABE They withdrew because I indicated earlier on that we wanted to go and get the Police. Oscar said no, and he had just been released on Thursday. Vusi confessed that guys you know my name is among the members of the Stability Unit. Nxeba said the same. Alex did not respond, he just stood back. The fifth one, who was next to me, I cannot remember him. CHAIRPERSON Did they allow you to go and look for the motor vehicle? MR LEKABE That is correct My Lord. CHAIRPERSON Didn't they try to prevent you in any manner whatsoever? MR LEKABE One member from the community volunteered that he will provide us with a car to accompany us. CHAIRPERSON Did that member say that in the presence of Oscar, Vusi, Mike and Alex? MR LEKABE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So did you then go along with this member of the community to go and get the car? MR LEKABE Yes, Chairperson, we were three because I do not know the third one. CHAIRPERSON It was yourself, the owner of the motor vehicle and the third person? MR LEKABE Yes. CHAIRPERSON You don't know the name of the owner of the motor vehicle, do you? MR LEKABE I do not remember him, because we did not introduce each other. CHAIRPERSON Was there any argument as to whether or not you should be put into a shack? MR LEKABE That is correct, there was such an argument. CHAIRPERSON Who said you should not be put into a shack? MR LEKABE It is Sonti. CHAIRPERSON What was the reason MRanced for not putting you in a shack? MR LEKABE That I should go and account before the community, as to what exactly happened, because I was the community leader. MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chairman. Did you make a statement to the Police about this matter? MR LEKABE Yes, I arrived at JOCC and I only reported that there was a corpse at Muleleki Extension 2. MR MADASA My question is have you made a statement to the Police about this matter? MR LEKABE About which matter? MR MADASA The one you spoke about, about the killings, about you being captured by the SDU? MR LEKABE I did not give them the statement. MR MADASA Were you approached by the Police to make a statement? MR LEKABE No, they did not. MR MADASA When did you arrive at Muleleki? MR LEKABE I arrived in Muleleki on the 1st of February 1993. MR MADASA When you arrived, how many Blocks were there? MR LEKABE It was only three Blocks, the fourth one was not yet fully occupied. MR MADASA Can you name those Blocks, which were originally ... MR LEKABE Block A, B and C. I mentioned already that D was not yet fully occupied. MR MADASA Now, when you arrived there, was the SDU already in existence? MR LEKABE Yes, it existed already. MR MADASA In your main statement, evidence in chief, you said the SDU was formed in May or June 1993, now you say in February it was already in existence? MR LEKABE The SDU was formed in May, the one that existed that time was the one formed by the Youth. MR MOTATA So the SDU that existed when you arrived at Muleleki when there were three Blocks, A, B and C and D not fully occupied, was the one that was formed by the Youth, are we understanding you to say that? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MOTATA Was there another SDU formed, that is now the one that was formed in May. Who formed that one? MR LEKABE I do not have a full knowledge, but (indistinct) is the first person I knew. MR MADASA Do you know how it was formed? MR LEKABE I do not know how it was formed, I only heard that there was a newly formed SDU. MR MADASA The applicants say the SDU was formed in 1992, what do you say about that? MR LEKABE It is a lie. MR MADASA When the SDU was formed in May, June 1993, was a meeting called? MR LEKABE No, we only knew that there was an SDU, we saw them patrolling. MR MADASA And you later joined them and became one organisation? MR LEKABE Yes, Chairperson. MR MADASA Why did you join the new formation instead of joining Youth? MR LEKABE It is because the old one was only members of the Youth, we wanted to join them because they were elderly people, we wanted them to show us the way. MR MADASA You wanted them to teach you discipline? MR LEKABE We wanted them to show us the way, maybe as the Youth we were not walking the right way. We wanted them to teach us exactly how the SDU operates. MR MADASA You wanted them to teach you discipline when patrolling? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA Because you were not disciplined? MR LEKABE Not that we lacked discipline, we did not have the knowledge. MR MADASA You have admitted that you wanted them to teach you discipline. MR LEKABE Discipline and knowledge, yes. Because we believed as the Youth we would be telling ourselves that we were doing the right thing, and would have been mistaken. MR MADASA So you had knowledge, but no discipline? CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa, does it follow necessarily that because they wanted discipline, therefore they were not disciplined? MR MADASA Mr Chairman, the witness has said ... CHAIRPERSON Does it really follow necessarily? MR MADASA The witness has said they wanted the SDU because they were old, to teach them discipline because all that they had was knowledge, so I am asking now ... CHAIRPERSON No, he said, the witness said we wanted to join them because they were adults. The essence of what he is saying is we wanted to learn from them, how to do things. What is being put to you is that you did not have discipline so that is why you wanted to be taught discipline? MR LEKABE That is not correct, it doesn't mean that we did not have discipline. We wanted a broad knowledge. MR MADASA Mr Chairman, the witness has said, I asked him specifically and his answer is that they wanted SDU to teach them discipline. I used the discipline and he used the word discipline, now I am pursuing that. CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa, the witness has just answered you and he said they had - he disputes the fact that they did not have discipline. MR MADASA Are you contradicting yourself, because earlier on you said that you wanted to be taught discipline, now you say you had discipline? Are you contradicting yourself? CHAIRPERSON The witness is not contradicting himself here. The witness simply said we wanted knowledge and discipline and he denies that they did not have discipline, and he disputes that fact. MR MADASA Mr Chairman, the witness said they wanted knowledge and discipline. CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa, the witness, if you want to take the matter up, we can take the matter up in argument. MR MADASA Did they teach you anything when you joined them? MR LEKABE No, they did not teach us anything because what we saw from them was the harassment of the community. MR MADASA Did you have arms of your own? MR LEKABE At that time we had arms, but not many. I think only two. MR MADASA When you say that time, when was that? MR LEKABE A explained that the SDU was formed in May. From February until that time in May because as members of the Youth, we were afraid to go to our parents to ask for money to buy arms. MR MADASA Where did you get the arms from? MR LEKABE Some of our members who resided in the old township, gave us those arms. They said because you are new, something might happen. Now you must at least have something to protect yourselves with. MR MADASA Where did you get the arms from? MR LEKABE I told you Chair, that Muleleki was a new area. Old townships where we came from, people provided us with guns. For instance Zone 3, those people provided us with guns. They did not give us, they borrowed us so that at the time when we have ours, we would take back theirs. MR MADASA I asked you a short question, you are giving me a long explanation. Did you get these guns from Zone 3? CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa, how many times do you want the witness to repeat one and the same question? He has made it clear that they got those guns from the old township in Zone 3, in fact they were loaned to them. MR MADASA What type of guns were they? MR LEKABE They were AK47's, two. MR MADASA Who was the custodian of those? MR LEKABE There was no one person who would take custody of those guns, they rotated. MR MADASA Where did you get ammunition from? MR LEKABE When we wanted ammunition, we had to go back to the old township to ask for assistance. MR MADASA Were all the members of the Youth League at that time eligible to use the firearms? MR LEKABE Yes, they were eligible to use those guns according to the situation that existed in Kathlehong. MR MADASA Irrespective of age? MR LEKABE The people who were given the arms, were above 16 years of age. MR MADASA When I asked you, why did you not say only those who were above 16? MR LEKABE Repeat your question sir. MR MADASA When I asked you if you were eligible to carry the guns, you said all, why did you not say only those who were above 16? MR LEKABE Maybe I did not catch your question well. MR MADASA Did you have an Executive? MR LEKABE Yes Chairperson, we were under area 5 at that time. MR MADASA Who were the members of the Executive? MR LEKABE Tulani, I do not know his surname. MR MADASA What was he in the Executive, Tulani? MR LEKABE He was our Chairperson. MR MADASA Yes? MR LEKABE The deceased Vips. MR MADASA What was he? MR LEKABE He was the General Secretary of the Section. MR MADASA Yes? MR LEKABE Lucky. MR MADASA Lucky who? MR LEKABE I do not know his surname Chairperson, but he is present here. CHAIRPERSON Can you point him out to us please? MR LEKABE Over there. CHAIRPERSON What is your surname sir? MR MAYA Maya. Maya is my surname sir. CHAIRPERSON Lucky Maya, thank you. MR MADASA What was Mr Maya? MR LEKABE He was the Secretary for the religious affairs. MR MADASA Yes, carry on. MR LEKABE Miele was present. MR MADASA What was he? MR LEKABE He was an Educator. MR MADASA Who else? MR LEKABE I do not remember the others. MR MADASA Were you part of the Executive? MR LEKABE I became part of the Executive thereafter. If I am right, it might be September or October. MR MADASA 1993? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA What did you become? MR LEKABE I became the Publicity Secretary. MR MADASA When was this Executive formed? MR LEKABE I told you already that it might have been September or October, I do not have certainty to the dates because I lost some of my documents. MR MADASA You said you became the Publicity Secretary in September or October. MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA I am asking the Executive as a whole, because you joined later in the Executive, when was it formed? MR LEKABE The whole Executive was formed in March, towards the end of March. MR MADASA Why did you not become part? MR LEKABE I did not have interest at that time to be part. I was satisfied as a person who was MRising them. MR MADASA Were you ever the Secretary General of the area? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA In what organisation? MR LEKABE SANCO, Civic. MR MADASA When you were member of SANCO, did you also become a member of the ANC Youth League at the same time? MR LEKABE That is correct Chairperson. MR MADASA But in your evidence in chief, right at the beginning, you said no ANC Youth member was part of the Civic? MR LEKABE I said maybe we did not understand each other, I said because the Civic was the umbrella, everybody in the township submitted to the Civic. I would not refuse when people elect me to that position, because of what I was doing. MR MADASA Were you elected to the position of ANC Youth League, even though you were part of the Civic? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA Then why did you say no member of ANC Youth League was part of the Civic, if you are in fact so? MR MALAN Sorry Mr Madasa, he did say in the follow up question immediately, that he was a member of both. He was a member of both the Civic and the ANC Youth League. MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chair. Did you know Ndondolo? MR LEKABE I knew him a lot. MR MADASA Were you close to him? MR LEKABE Not that much because we were not politically cooperative. MR MADASA Did you know Mnyala? MR LEKABE Yes, I knew him as the Commander of Zone 5 then. MR MADASA Do you recall when Mnyala called a stay away? MR LEKABE Yes. MR MADASA Did you support that stay away? MR LEKABE I did not support that stay away as a member of the Civic, because I knew that they had no mandate of calling a stay away without reporting to us. MR MADASA When was that call made? MR LEKABE I do not remember the date very well, but I remember it was on Monday morning when people prepared to ... MR MADASA Which month? MR LEKABE It would be difficult to know Chairperson, I do not remember the month, but I know the same year, 1993. MR MADASA When Mnyala called the stay away, was the ANC Youth League still part of the SDU? MR LEKABE At that time there was no peace. CHAIRPERSON Between the SDU and the Youth League? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA It had already separated? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA Did you have a quarrel with Mnyala as a result of your disapproval of the stay away? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA My instructions are that that was the initial reason why you led ANC Youth League away from the SDU? MR LEKABE Sir, all the people you are applying for, are liars. They are not telling the bad things they did to the community. MR MADASA My instructions are that it was as a result of your disapproval of the call for stay away that you led ANC Youth League away from SDU? Is that so? MR LEKABE They are not telling the wrongs they did to the community. I have a statement why there was a conflict between us. MR MOTATA Please confine yourself to answering the question, asked. We will make much more progress in that respect. CHAIRPERSON What is the answer to the question? MR LEKABE Yes, there was a quarrel between myself and Mnyala because of that stay away. MR MADASA The question is did you as a result of that quarrel, lead ANC Youth League away from the SDU? MR LEKABE At that time, they had already separated. I did not lead them away, they had already separated. MR MADASA Did you know (indistinct) MR LEKABE I knew him well sir. MR MADASA To which organisation did he belong? MR LEKABE He was a member of the South African Communist Party and he was also a member of the ANC. MR MADASA How do you know that? MR LEKABE You know the day we sat together, discussing politics of the country, then. MR MADASA How did you know that he had membership of the Communist Party of South Africa? MR LEKABE I saw his card, he showed me his card. MR MADASA Was he a friend? MR LEKABE As an inhabitant, he was my friend. MR MADASA Were you working close at organisational level, hence you discussed politics? MR LEKABE Yes, that is correct. MR MADASA When you met him at Bulelwa's corpse, before he spoke to you, did you know who had killed Bulelwa? MR LEKABE I did not have knowledge as to who killed Bulelwa. CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa, are you still going to be long? MR MADASA Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Very well. At this stage, we will adjourn until Monday at ten o'clock. COMMISSION ADJOURNS