amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-03-09 BOKSBURG 6 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54639&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/bok/bok1_katleho6.htm CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, we have a problem now for the proceedings to carry on because one of the applicants, Mr Michael Armoed, who is in prison has not yet been brought to the hearing by the South African Police, Boksburg. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Is there any reason why he's not here? I gather that on Friday he was taken back to the Johannesburg Prison? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson, when we enquired from the police they said they took him back to Johannesburg Prison on Friday because the original arrangement was that they are going to keep him until Friday. CHAIRPERSON That is despite the announcement that was made by this Committee that the matter will proceed today? MR MAPOMA It looks like despite that announcement, Chairperson yes, but be that as it may we have made some arrangements with them now to go and fetch him as soon as possible from Johannesburg and bring him here. CHAIRPERSON Yes, what time did they leave? MR MAPOMA I think they left at about nine a.m. because that arrangement was made with them, at about nine or some few minutes after nine. CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa? MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman I'm of the opinion on behalf of the applicants that it is desirable that the applicants be present throughout the hearing. CHAIRPERSON We're talking about one applicant here not applicants. MR MADASA Mr Armoed to be present during the hearing especially when there's evidence being led against him from the witness who is now testifying. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Chairperson if Mr Madasa feels strongly about the point I won't be able, Chairperson, to object to his sentiment. CHAIRPERSON I think it is desirable that when evidence is led against an applicant he should be present so that he can hear what the witnesses have to say often concerning his role in any activity in which he is implicated. However I think it is highly undesirable that this committee should be having constant problem with the applicant being brought to these hearings, I cannot understand why the applicant could not have been here at about half past nine. Now do I understand why the applicant had to be taken back to prison when an announcement was made by this Committee that these proceedings will continue today? Mr Mapoma would you please take the matter up with the Station Commander and find out precisely why is it that the applicant was taken back to Johannesburg Prison when we had indicated that these proceedings will continue today? MR MAPOMA As the Chairperson pleases. CHAIRPERSON Well in the circumstances we will have to wait until Mr Armoed arrives at which stage we will then continue with the evidence of Mr Lekabe. MR MAPOMA Yes I understand sir. CHAIRPERSON Very well we will rise and reconvene as soon as the applicant is here. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Notwithstanding the assurances that we were given earlier on, that the police had left at approximately 9 o'clock to go and fetch the first applicant, it would appear that the police only left for Johannesburg at approximately half past ten and I gather that there would be some delay before they return with the applicant. It seems to us that in the interest of progress these proceedings should continue and what will happen is that when the first applicant comes to join the proceedings, Mr Madasa, who represents all the applicants, will be able to tell the applicant what evidence, if any, had been led against him and thereafter take instructions from the first applicant so as to dispute whatever piece of evidence he might want to dispute from this witness. If the witness has already stood down by that time, the witness will be recalled to whenever Mr Madasa to put those questions to the witness. We are of the view therefore that the proceedings ought to proceed. Yes Mr Madasa, you were still busy cross-examining the witness. Mr Lekabe may I remind you that you are still under oath? LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Madasa would you please proceed with your cross-examination? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chairman. You remember when I asked you about the stayaway you agreed that you disagreed with Manyala about the stayaway? MR LEKABE That is correct, Chairperson. MR MADASA Would that be the - what was the date of the stayaway? Was any date given to that? I think I said August. CHAIRPERSON Was it August? MR MADASA Was the stayaway in August? MR LEKABE Chairperson, I don't remember the date but I remember that we had a dispute about the stayaway. MR MADASA Is it correct that the stayaway was called so that a March could be organised for the release of ANC Youth League Members who were arrested. MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA So Manyala was organising a march for the release of your own members, is that correct? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA Is it correct that in the ANC Youth League you, at Mololeke, you were the ringleaders so to speak of that Youth League? MR LEKABE I want you to clarify your question, sir. MR MADASA Were you the most influential leader within the ANC Youth League at Mololeke? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA Now you agreed that you worked together with the SDU, you wanted them to teach you discipline. Now my question is how long did you remain part of the SDU? MR LEKABE Chairperson, I don't remember the duration of relationship up to a point where we had a dispute. MR MADASA On Friday you also told us that you separated with them because they were involved in killings, remember that? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA What were the other reasons that caused the ANC Youth League and the SDU to have disagreement besides the killings? MR LEKABE As you've put this question now, I have documents which verified people who were taking sides in Mololeke. They were taken by members of SDU and they were given to their friends. I hope that if this Commission will allow me, I would pass over these documents. MR MADASA Now, is it correct that you had problems with the fact that the SDU members were not, so to speak, born and bred in the Township? MR LEKABE Will you please clarify your question? MR MADASA Did you not have a problem with the fact that the SDU members were people who came from the rural areas? MR LEKABE No chairperson it's not like that. MR MADASA The applicants say you did not like them for that reason and other reasons of course. MR LEKABE As I've already explained that what they're saying is a lie. MR MADASA Do you know that the SDU had a flag that was made by the Civic as a symbol of their recognition at Mololeke. Do you know that? MR LEKABE No chairperson, I don't know that. MR MADASA Did you have a flag that was made by the Civic? MR LEKABE May you please explain your question, what do you mean, who was the flag belonging to, ANC Youth League or SDU? MR MADASA ANC Youth League. MR LEKABE Yes we had an ANC Youth League flag. MR MADASA After you had separated with the SDU did you assume a new name? MR LEKABE No chairperson. MR MADASA Did you form a new SDU or you patrolled as Youth League? MR LEKABE As I've already explained Chairperson, that Mololeke Community raised concerns about what is happening. Members of the SDU were supposed to put down their arms up to the point where the correct SDU unit has been formed. MR MADASA My question is did you formerly form a new SDU which was known as an SDU? MR LEKABE No Chairperson, we didn't form a new SDU. MR MADASA You know that the ANC made a call for the formation of SDU's is that correct? MR LEKABE Yes Chairperson. MR MADASA Was there a call made for the ANC Youth League to defend the community? MR LEKABE Yes the ANC Youth League was part of the community, they were able to form an SDU. MR MADASA But your organisation as Youth League was only comprised of ANC members, is that correct? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA And the ANC call was that the SDU should be non-partisan, are you aware of that? MR LEKABE That is the area where I'm aware that is why I said as part of the Civic all organisations reported to the civic. MR MADASA Let's talk about the attack at Blanko, Blanko's house. Is it correct that on the 6th December you, that is ANC Youth League members, you all came together at the spot where you usually met? Is that correct? MR LEKABE That is correct I said even other members of the community were present. MR MADASA Who were those members of the community. MR LEKABE Those who came from Block A, other came from Block B, others came from Block C. MR MADASA But the meeting was for ANC Youth League members. Is that not so? MR LEKABE There was no meeting as such. MR MADASA Are you saying you did not meet on the 6th December? MR LEKABE As I've already said that we met where we were supposed to meet yes, we met but it was not a meeting. It was not to respond to the call about the death of Bulelwa. MR MADASA May I request you to speak a little bit softly please and a little bit slow. MR LEKABE Thank you sir. ...[inaudible CHAIRPERSON But there's no translation what's the problem? INTERPRETER There was translation, can I repeat? MR LEKABE As I say chairperson, it was not a meeting, a formal meeting, it was because of the call, we met because of the call of Bulelwa's death. She was already dead by then. MR MADASA At that meeting you then planned to attack the SDU members, is that correct? MR LEKABE It is not about the attack, it was to apprehend them and bring them to the community. MR MADASA Did you bring Blanko to the community? MR LEKABE We did not because he resisted the apprehension. MR LEKABE But on Friday when you testified you said you found Blanko asleep after...don't rush. MR LEKABE Okay. MR MADASA And the day after attacked him, you did not speak of trying to apprehend him? MR LEKABE Chairperson, maybe I did not explain that -but the way it is we were tired about what was done by members of the SDU's. I explained that we started from other places which belonged to SDU members then we proceeded to Blanko's house then we found him asleep. MR MADASA Did you kill him whilst he was asleep? MR LEKABE No he was awake but at the time he was resistant that he should come with us. MR MADASA Did you ask him to come with you? MR LEKABE I don't understand your question? MR MADASA Did you ask him to come with you? MR LEKABE Yes we told him that we are tired about what they're doing within the community. MR MADASA When you went to Blanko's place where were you from? MR LEKABE I don't understand? MR MADASA Where were you from? MR LEKABE We were from - we started from where we met at Block C. MR MADASA So from Block C you went to Blanko's place? MR LEKABE We started from other houses which belonged to SDU's then we did not find them. MR MADASA Which houses are those? MR LEKABE The first house is Vusi's place. We were a group, the others went to other places so I don't know where they went to. MR MADASA Did you go to Manyala's place - Block D? MR LEKABE I don't remember well as I said that we were in groups. MR MADASA In the group in which you were did you proceed from C straight to Blanko? MR LEKABE Before we went to Blanko's place and then we passed - proceeded - then we missed him. After that he spent a long time - maybe he was going to call others - so we tried to apprehend those who we think who were inside the community. MR MADASA After you had seen Bulelwa's body did Buthelezi tell you to go and attack the SDU members? MR LEKABE As I've explained in the beginning, Chairperson, Buthelezi came to my place crying, he was not present there, he went back. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that Mr Buthelezi was not present at the meeting that where the [indistinct] from blocks A, B, C had gathered? MR LEKABE That is correct Chairperson. MR MADASA Now we've heard that some of the members had removed items at Blanko's place? MR LEKABE I heard from the first time from members of the SDU's. Even in the morning when they apprehended me they didn't show me what has been taken. MR MADASA Now during that time in '93 were you working? MR LEKABE I was working temporarily but at that time I had been retrenched. MR MADASA How old were you that time? MR LEKABE I was 22 years old. MR MADASA Were there other members of ANC Youth League working seeing that they were around 14, 16 years old? CHAIRPERSON I would have thought if they were 14 they would be at school? MR LEKABE I don't remember if there were some members of the Youth League who were working. The majority of them were students. MR MADASA Were they attending school? MR LEKABE Chairperson, they were not going to school because of the situation at that time. MR MADASA It is said that some of your members owned shacks, is that correct? MR LEKABE They were not their own shacks, those were the hiding places when they were harassed by the Stability Unit because the Stability Unit would come at any time so those were their hiding places. MR MADASA So your members had shacks where they would hide? MR LEKABE That is correct, sir. MR MADASA How many were those shacks? MR LEKABE I don't know how many there were because we were many. MR MADASA Would they spend most of their time at those shacks or at their homes? MR LEKABE Much of the time they'd spend at their homes, they'd go to those shacks when they expect the Stability Unit would come. MR MADASA Now you said after you were apprehended by the SDU members, did you say Oscar - Oscar tried to shoot you, or Armoed? MR LEKABE That's Armoed. MR MADASA He tried to shoot you in the presence of the people? MR LEKABE It was in the morning, I think it was before 6 o'clock or after 5 o'clock in the morning. There was a certain lady who came out and she was chased away. MR MADASA Why did Armoed try to shoot you? Where were you? MR LEKABE As I have already explained, I was in front of him because one of them started to shoot with 765 rifle, he tried three times until the magazine went out. MR MADASA You said on Friday he tried to shoot you when you were at the people where the people had converged? MR LEKABE I said it's Oscar who tried to shoot me where we were where people were around or present. MR MADASA Now it's correct that Oscar was part of the group which went to fetch you? MR LEKABE That is correct, Chairperson. MR MADASA And he had an opportunity to shoot you there if he wanted to, is that not so? If he wanted to shoot you he would have shot at you when he apprehended you? MR LEKABE When they came as a group, I've already explained, Oscar himself, we did have a discussion both of us because people who were with him were not able to see me. He's the one who called me. MR MADASA Did you say that yourself and Oscar had a discussion? MR LEKABE Yes Chairperson. MR MADASA What did you talk about? MR LEKABE That is the time when he asked me why did we say he's the one who has killed Bulelwa. MR MADASA Yes? MR LEKABE Then they went with me and then we were going along the township trying to take other members of the ANC Youth League. CHAIRPERSON Was he referring to the conversation with Oscar? Did he ask you why you were alleging that he had killed Bulelwa, is that right? MR LEKABE I don't know Chairperson why did he say we alleged that he has killed Bulelwa. CHAIRPERSON But did he say that? Did he say that you guys were saying that he's the one who killed Bulelwa? MR LEKABE When they apprehended me, as I've already explained, that he called me - then he said why did we allege that he has killed Bulelwa. Because I was scared I told him who said he [inaudible] Bulelwa. CHAIRPERSON You asked him who had made that allegation? MR LEKABE Yes I did. He replied that there are people who have been apprehended then they say I am myself, myself I'm responsible for that allegation. MR MADASA Now you said you escaped by pretending as if you were going to call for help, did you say that? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA The applicants say they brought you to the community in order to account about Blanko's death? MR LEKABE I do not remember the reason for them to take me to the community. What I remember is that they told me that I was supposed to appear before the community to be responsible for everything that happened. CHAIRPERSON Well I suppose that what is being put to you is that the applicant's say that you were supposed to appear before the community which had gathered there and to account for the deeds of the Youth League. Is that what you're putting to him? MR MADASA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Do you understand that? MR LEKABE I don't quite understand. Why does he say the Youth League activities. CHAIRPERSON Well possibly because the Youth League had killed Blanko amongst other things, that they were alleged to have done then. MR LEKABE I was taken before the community to account but that was not the case. I was first taken to the shack to speak to those who had kept shack and I could not even speak to the community at the end. CHAIRPERSON What were you supposed to say to those who were the shack? MR LEKABE I was enquiring about the allegations that I mentioned that Oscar killed Bulelwa. CHAIRPERSON Then you say you were never taken into the community? MR LEKABE I did not account before the community because at that time I was among the members of the SDU. CHAIRPERSON But what is being put to you is not that you accounted before the community, what is being put to you is that you were required to appear before the community and to account before the community and presumably for the activities of the Youth League including the death of Blanko. We all know that you didn't do that because you went away but the applicants say that was their purpose. It was to bring you to the community and get you to account before the community. Do you understand the question? MR LEKABE I do not quite understand. CHAIRPERSON Well if you listen carefully, you'll understand the question. What is being put to you is that the applicants say that what they had in mind with you was that you will appear before the community which had gathered there and then account for the conduct, or the activities if you will, of the Youth League members which of course included the killing of Blanko. Do you understand that? That's what they wanted to do with you. What do you say to that? MR LEKABE That is not correct. MR MADASA Is it correct that at that time amongst the organisations there was an understanding that if a leader of an organisation was involved in some acts like acts of killing, the leader would not be killed but would be brought before the community to account? CHAIRPERSON It's the leader or if the members of the organisation? MR MADASA If a leader of an organisation, Mr Chair, was involved in killing for example, the understanding at the time was that such person would be brought before the community before any action is taken against him. Is that not so? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA But you did not do so with Blanko because he resisted, is that so? MR LEKABE That is correct, I have explained already that they were armed themselves. Now we wanted those who were armed first, we wanted Blanko to tell us who were those among them where I am sure that we can first get hold of the arms. MR MADASA Is it correct that at the scene where the community had gathered you were free to move around, you were not tied for example, is that correct? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA Then I'm putting to you that you escaped from that scene because you were running away to account to the community about Blanko's death and other activities? CHAIRPERSON He was running away to account or was he running away in order to avoid accounting to the community? MR MADASA I should say to avoid, Mr Chairman. You ran away to avoid to account to the community? MR LEKABE That is not correct. MR MADASA Why did you run away? MR LEKABE I explained already that they tried at the time they were rounding us up, they were armed and they were very angry so their anger went a little bit down because at that time I did not run away. MR MADASA When you went to Blanko to attack him were you not armed? Were you not armed? MR LEKABE We were armed but members of the community were armed, among members of the Youth League were not armed. MR MADASA Were you? I'm referring to you now, were you not armed. MR LEKABE I was not armed Chairperson. MR MADASA And when you went to Blanko you believed, at that time, you believed that Blanko and his colleagues had killed Bulelwa and were armed? Is that not so? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA Why were you not armed? MR LEKABE I was the leader, I was not supposed to carry any weapon. MR MADASA Did you not anticipate an attack from Blanko's place? MR LEKABE We did not anticipate an attack, I already explained that some members of the community clearly indicated that they were tired. They said they were arming because those guys might be also in a spirit of war. MR MADASA You deny that the ANC Youth League members were involved in criminal activities? MR LEKABE I dispute that. MR MADASA Now in my possession here I have the Mololeke Police docket and inside it there's a statement by one France Towu who worked for a paraffin company and in that statement, which is A5, he states that around June/July they were attacked by the members, they were hijacked by the members of the ANC Youth League and after these members had died as a result of the massacre he went there to identify them and he indeed he identified some of those people. What do you say to that? Do you know anything about what Mr Towu says? MR LEKABE Chairperson it's my first time to hear that. MR MADASA And also in the docket Mr Towu's colleague, somebody who worked with him, I think it's ...[inaudible] out of the last I take, on the 1st December 1993, by the Youth Members and he also identified some of them amongst the deceased. MR LEKABE I said earlier on I do not know of such an incident. What I know is that there were problems because of the situation that reigned in Katlehong. Some youth would leave their areas and go and cause trouble in the other area. I do not know as to whether he knew some of those members, it's the first time to hear of that. MR MADASA And lastly on Towu, they say he and ...[indistinct] they say your members were armed with not only AK-47's but other assortment of arms like pump action pistols. Do you know anything about that? MR LEKABE Chairperson I have already explained that I never received that kind of a report, it's my first here to hear of this incident. MR MADASA A certain Mr Moodley who was in the management of that paraffin company - he also states that he told his employees, workers, to pay an amount varying from R50 to R70 to your members in order to secure entry to Mololeke section to do deliveries? MR LEKABE It's not the first time to hear of that protection fee but as the leaders we condemned that move, we said anyone must feel free to come to the township - no protection fee at all was required. MR MADASA Now you've just conceded that some of your members caused trouble but in other areas, what kind of trouble did they cause in those areas? MR LEKABE Chairperson, Mololeke it's a section in Katlehong so you will never stop someone to go somewhere else. To be in a position to talk to such a person and call him to order you'll have to first contact his leaders where he comes from. MR MADASA Yes I hear the explanation, my question is - you have said some of your members caused trouble in other areas. Do you know what kind of trouble did they cause? MR LEKABE I do not know the troubles they caused. MR MADASA Were you told about the trouble they caused? MR LEKABE No I was not told. MR MADASA But you know that they caused trouble? MR LEKABE I am explaining that some of the youth would leave from where they stay. The easiest way to identify them and to know their organisation would be to catch them, ask them who their leaders are, then you'll be in a position to know that they have caused trouble. CHAIRPERSON Well, what exactly were you told did your members do in these other areas? MR LEKABE No sir, I was not told of my members who caused trouble. CHAIRPERSON Well you mentioned that you were told that you did receive a report that some of the members of the Youth League had gone to some other areas and caused trouble. MR LEKABE That was a report received by Central in other words where all members of the Youth League come together. I did not personally receive a report at Mololeke that members of the Youth League in Mololeke did this and that. CHAIRPERSON What is it that the report said had been done by these members of the Youth League? MR LEKABE The report was related to the criminal activity that took part in some of the areas in Katlehong not specifically Mololeke. CHAIRPERSON So in other words, the report alleged that some of the members of the Youth League had been engaged in some criminal activities in other parts of Katlehong? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA Now you said earlier on that you were not on good terms with the members of the SDU? Did you say that? You as a person now, I'm not referring to the ANC Youth League. You personally you were not on good terms with the SDU members? Is that correct? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA And all of them? MR LEKABE Those people I was not on good terms with were the top ones, I'm referring now to the committee of the SDU. MR MADASA The top structure from Central to Zonal to? MR LEKABE Not from Central I'm referring to Leleke where I resided at that time. MR MADASA I assume the leadership of the SDU at Mololeke? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA What was the problem? MR LEKABE The problem was that when you tried to interpret the politics of that day some of them would say to you - listen here we are here to work and if someone is not co-operating we'll use the powers that we have. Let me provide an example - there is a day where I tried to sit down with the leadership of the SDU in the section, you know, to iron out the problems that the community encountered. Now that meeting did not take place because they were threatening the members of the Civic, they said we were then no better. MR MADASA Was Manyala part of that leadership which you disagreed with at Leleke? Was Leleke leadership Manyala? MR LEKABE Manyala was in the zonal section, he also resided in Mololeke. MR MADASA You also did not like him? MR LEKABE Our conflict started with that issue of the stayaway. MR MADASA But he was trying to help your members to be released? MR LEKABE If you are a leader you must know the reasons for the stayaway, you don't just wake up in the morning and hear people being stopped from work. MR MADASA Alright, so you disagreed with any activity wherein you were not conducted or consulted before? MR LEKABE Yes that is correct because as the leaders of Mololeke, we were supposed to account before the central and the zonal. MR MADASA Alright, now do you remember what you said earlier on on Friday - that you worked together with SDU but for a short moment, you remember saying that? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA What month is it you came together with the SDU? MR LEKABE Chairperson, so many things happened in Mololeke. I do not remember the month very well MR MADASA Now do you know Tulani and Maya? MR LEKABE Tulani who? CHAIRPERSON Because the witness earlier on on Friday testified about a certain Tulani who was apparently a member of the Executive Committee. Is that right? MR LEKABE You are right. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MADASA He was a member of the ANC Youth League? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA Tulani says in his statement in the docket that before June, June/July '93 you were working together with the SDU. Do you confirm that? MR LEKABE Yes. MR MADASA And then after June/July you still remained working together but you agreed on different times of patrol, that is you would patrol during the day and the SDU at night? MR LEKABE It was during the start of the conflict. MR MADASA And you agree that after June/July you then agreed to patrol different times? MR LEKABE I do not understand your question. What do you mean when you say we agreed that we will patrol in different times? INTERPRETER Mr Lekabe the Advocate is asking you this, you had a problem with the SDU but between the two of you were some arguments that your group will patrol at a certain time and the SDU will patrol at a certain time? MR LEKABE My lord I'm explaining that it was already during the conflicts between the ANC Youth League and the SDU. INTERPRETER The question still remains did you agree? MR LEKABE Yes that's correct. We did. MR MADASA Now, Oscar Motlokwa denies that he tried to shoot at Zulu as you testified - Zulu - remember you said Oscar tried to shoot Zulu? MR LEKABE He is just denying it. Ali Zulu is the first person he shot at in Block A. MR MADASA Is that a person that he shot at four times? MR LEKABE I explained that he shot him at the chest six times. CHAIRPERSON And what happened to him? Did he die there? MR LEKABE We left him lying there in Block A. CHAIRPERSON Did he die? MR LEKABE Yes he was already dead when we left him. MR MADASA Now you remember you said there were members of the community who were armed when you went to Blanko. Who were those people who were armed? MR LEKABE I explained already that members of the community were present but I did not specifically look at them. They were there though. MR MADASA So you don't know their identity? MR LEKABE I do not know their identity. MR MADASA How were they armed, what did they carry? MR LEKABE Some had guns, some had different assortment of weapons. MR MADASA Do you know from which area they came from in Mololeke? MR LEKABE They came from Block A, I explained already, Block A, Block B, Block C. MR MADASA But you did not know them? MR LEKABE Yes, I do not know them. MR MADASA Who burned the place of Blanko? MR LEKABE I do not know because after the shootout I left, I don't know those who left behind among them who burned the house. MR MADASA Do you perceive yourself as guilty of the killing of Blanko? MR LEKABE Can you please elaborate your question? MR MADASA Do you think you were involved in the killing of Blanko? MR LEKABE I do not think I have a contribution - I do have a contribution towards his death. MR MADASA What contribution did you make? CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa, is this relevant to the question whether or not there is full disclosure by the applicants or whether what the applicants did, did with political motivation? MR MADASA Mr Chair, I'm testing his credibility. CHAIRPERSON Testing his credibility by what he admits he was part of the gathering of people that decided to go and round up the persons who were believed to be armed and that he was part of a group of Youth League members and some members of the community that went to Blanko's place but he was not armed, he has told us, nor were any members of the Youth League armed. That's what he says. MR MADASA But Mr Chair he has not told us what he did there. CHAIRPERSON He is not applying for Amnesty. MR MADASA I know Mr Chair. Should I withdraw the question? I just want to find out from him. CHAIRPERSON What is the relevance of that to the issues that are before us? He is not applying for amnesty or is it being alleged by the applicant that he did something? MR MADASA It is alleged that he was seen by Oscar at Blanko, he is one of the people who killed Blanko. CHAIRPERSON Then put that to him. MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chair. Oscar Motlokwa, when he gave evidence, he said as a neighbour of Blanko, he saw you there, you are one of the people who killed Blanko. What do you say to that? Is that true or false, short answer, is that true or false? MR LEKABE That is true. MR MADASA But you have just denied involvement? MR LEKABE Where did I refuse my involvement because your question was did I think, your question was "do you think" and I don't think - I am certain that I had a contribution. MR MALAN Mr Madasa correctly then Oscar gave evidence that he indeed saw ...[indistinct] at the meeting. I think he also referred to him carrying a weapon at the time but he did not say that he saw him shooting or killing Blanko. Is there really a relevance which could take it further by us establishing whether he did shoot at Blanko or not? MR MADASA Thank you Mr Committee Member, Oscar says...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Just before you get to that, Oscar alleges that he saw you at Blanko's place and that you were carrying an AK-47, what do you say to that? MR LEKABE He saw me shooting, I did not have a gun when we arrived, I took that gun from one of the members of the community. CHAIRPERSON So at Blanko's place you were present and you had an AK-47? MR LEKABE I did not carry an AK-47 but when I shot, I took it from one member of the community, I shot and then I returned it. MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chair I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma do you have any questions? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson, one or two. When you disagreed with Manyala's march against the release of the ANC Youth League members you had no mandate from the community? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MAPOMA Did you have a mandate from the ANC Youth League? MR LEKABE Elaborate your question, which mandate are you referring to the mandate for the march or? MR MAPOMA It's the mandate for the march, did Manyala have the mandate from the ANC Youth League now for the march? MR LEKABE That is not correct because people did not expect that march. MR MAPOMA Thank you. Thank you sir. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Mr Sibanyoni do you have any questions? MR SIBANYONI Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Lekabe, let me begin at the end of your evidence, you said you took the AK-47 from one member, you shot and you returned it back, if I understand you correctly? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR SIBANYONI And whom did you shoot? MR LEKABE I shot Blanko. MR SIBANYONI Let us go a little bit backwards. You said Oscar killed Ali Zulu, that he was the first person he killed? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR SIBANYONI Right, let me just try to find out from you. These applicants when they come here to apply for amnesty they talk about everything they did, in other words they disclose everything they did. Now I'm saying to you if really he killed Ali Zulu, he would mention him as well? What do you say about that? MR LEKABE On Friday I said that what they are saying here it's a pure lie. MR SIBANYONI When you left at the meeting remember when you said you are asking for transport, you want to go and find assistance and then that's how you escaped? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR SIBANYONI At that stage you realised that the tension was bad at Mololeke because you are saying these were armed and they've captured some of the members of the ANC Youth League? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR SIBANYONI If you could just not move too close to the mike please. Now why didn't you at that stage go and report to the either the ISU or to the police realising the seriousness of the situation? MR LEKABE I think I have alluded to the fact that the situation in Katlehong was to such an extent that co-operation was not possible between the police and the community so it was my duty to inform the bigger organisation which is SANCO or rather the Civic. MR SIBANYONI In other words you wouldn't at any stage go and appeal for assistance to the ISU? MR LEKABE That is correct, I would never dare do that because we did not trust them. MR SIBANYONI So that also from the statements of the relatives of the victims specifically to a statement by a mother to ...[indistinct] mother who says that after they heard about the death of their children, they went to the peace committee. Was the peace committee the only institutional place where you would go for assistance? MR LEKABE I do not understand why they went to the Peace Committee because I think at that time the Peace Committee was tasked with the investigation into the police activities. Maybe they did not have the knowledge of where to go. MR SIBANYONI And you also said that the youths were staying with their parents but at some times they would go to stay at the shacks when they suspect that the ISU would attack them - they went to the shacks to hide, do you remember saying that? MR LEKABE I remember saying that. MR SIBANYONI Why would the Stability Unit attack the - or - yes we use the word attack - why would the Internal Stability Unit attack the youth? MR LEKABE I was the leader in the Civic and when things happened I was supposed to be there and witness. If I remember well, I tried to intervene and I was talking to the members of the Internal Stability Unit and they responded by saying they were looking for criminals in Mololeke. Now for them, every young man is a criminal, they don't choose, that is why the youth ran away from the Stability Unit. MR SIBANYONI So do I understand you well that the ISU suspected your members as part of the criminals or as criminals. MR LEKABE That is correct. MR SIBANYONI Let's go to the time when Blanko was killed. I heard you saying members of the community were also present? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR SIBANYONI A rough estimation, how many members of the community were there? MR LEKABE I know that an estimation is not a precise thing, it might have been seventy if not eighty. MR SIBANYONI Now when these youth members of your Youth League were captured by the SDU do you know why members of the community didn't intervene and tried to stop that or help them out with that capture? MR LEKABE I know the reason why sir. MR SIBANYONI Can you tell us the reason? MR LEKABE It's because of the fear. They feared members of the SDU so much because even on that day they were going to be harassed if ever they raised their objections. MR SIBANYONI You are saying it is alleged that you are the person who alleged that Oscar killed Bulelwa. My question is did you make that allegation, did you suspect Oscar for killing Bulelwa? MR LEKABE No sir I explained already that Bulelwa was killed already Monday night and I knew that Oscar had just been released from prison on Thursday. MR SIBANYONI Were the police aware of the differences, or as you call, it the conflict between the SDU and the ANC Youth League? Were the police aware of that conflict? MR LEKABE We were not co-operative with the police, the central committee of the SDU or the central committee of the Civic was supposed to intervene at that time not the police. MR SIBANYONI My question is - but were the police aware that you were not in good terms, that at Mololeke the SDU's and the Youth League are not in good terms, they are either fighting over control of the area or anything of that sort. Are they aware of that? MR LEKABE I do not have knowledge to that effect. MR SIBANYONI Oscar and the other applicants told this Committee that Bulelwa was supportive of the SDU's, or let me call them the old SDU's, that even in a meeting where discussions were held towards the commission of new SDU's, Bulelwa questioned the reason for formation of the new SDU when there was an SDU in existence. Do you agree with that? MR LEKABE That is a lie. MR SIBANYONI You are saying Bulelwa was not supportive of the SDU's and also she didn't object to what the formation of the new SDU? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions. Or Mr Chairperson, if I can just put one last question? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SIBANYONI Mr Lekabe, you said when you were talking to the SDU's I heard you saying there was no agreement as a result. Somebody said we should rather fight with you because you do not want to understand. Who said that? MR LEKABE On Friday I said Ntneba and Ntjebe don't know were present in that meeting. MR SIBANYONI But who attached that statements that it seems you do not want to work with us we'd rather fight? MR LEKABE Ntneba first publicly said that. MR MALAN Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Malan? MR MALAN Mr Lekabe, who killed Bulelwa? MR LEKABE I do not know who killed Bulelwa. I explained already that I was fetched - Bulelwa was already dead. MR MALAN Why did you go to Blanko's place if you didn't know who killed Bulelwa? MR LEKABE On Friday I mentioned in my talk that there was an allegation to the effect that prominent leaders were going to be attacked and Bulelwa's death was the first attack. MR MALAN What was - you've been saying the relationship between and the SDU's was not one as they have tried to picture, but why would they have first attacked her? Why would they not have gone for yourself or for Vips or one of the other Youth League members? MR LEKABE I would not have knowledge why they started with her. There was an organisation called Train Sector then, I think the conflict started at the Train I won't know exactly. MR MALAN Was there more of a conflict between the Civic and the SDU than there was between the Youth League and the SDU? MR LEKABE That is correct, there was. MR MALAN Was the conflict with the Civic and not with the Youth League? Am I hearing you correctly? MR LEKABE Yes that is correct, the conflict was between the Civic and the SDU not the Civic and the Youth League. MR MALAN There was also conflict between the Youth League and the SDU? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MALAN Who was the number one enemy of the SDU? The Civic or the Youth League? MR LEKABE The enemy number one was the Civic and members of the Youth League were the secondary enemy. MR MALAN Why did you say that Bulelwa did not have a good relationship with the SDU? MR LEKABE Some of the things they mentioned here are incorrect. When the issues regarding the SDU were deliberated on, women were excluded because the allegation is that Bulelwa was threatened in that meeting when she questioned the formation of the new SDU. MR MALAN Were you present at that meeting? MR LEKABE I was not present. MR MALAN Why would you have knowledge of what happened there? MR LEKABE I was the Secretary General for the Mololeke Section. Everything that happened came to me so that I can note them down for further references, for instance reporting to bigger meetings. MR MALAN Are you saying that if indeed she was told not to speak that that would have been reported to you? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MALAN Why? MR LEKABE As members of the Civic we played a bigger part and we were supposed to keep an eye so that conflicts do not erupt in the township so everybody had a freedom of speech. MR MALAN I have no further questions thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Motata. MR MOTATA Thank you Chairperson. Mr Lekabe, within the Youth League did you have a member by the name of Nomfundo? MR LEKABE I do not remember. MR MOTATA Did you have ladies in the Youth League, that is the Executive? MR LEKABE Yes they were present. MR MOTATA Were there many within the Executive? MR LEKABE There were not many. MR MOTATA I understand you to say that Ali Zulu was killed and you know the persons who killed him. Ali Zulu - am I right? MR LEKABE You are right. MR MOTATA And because you were not in good terms with the Stability Unit or the Police you are not desirous that the killers of Ali Zulu should be apprehended and should be answerable for such killing? MR LEKABE I told you already that I based my trust on my leaders to resolve this issue. MR MOTATA How do you hope your leaders would have resolved the killing of Ali Zulu because this is a criminal act? MR LEKABE We were trying, as the members of the Civic, to curb the conflicts between the community and I believe that members of the Katlehong ANC branch would have had a contribution. They would call members of the SDU and warn them because we had reported to them on several occasions that these people were troubling us. MR MOTATA Let's just return to your capturing and you being threatened by Mr Oscar Motlokwa that he wanted to shoot you. You said there is a Mr Mokoena who prevented him. Who is this Mr Mokoena who prevented Mr Motlokwa, Oscar Motlokwa from shooting you? MR LEKABE He was one member of Block F. At that time Block F was reporting to the section committee of the Civic. Mololeke, as I mentioned earlier on, was divided into smaller sections. Mokoena himself was one of the people who was wanted by the SDU. MR MOTATA Now when this Mr Mokoena prevented Mr Oscar Motlokwa from shooting you, where were you, were you at Block F where the corpse of Bulelwa was lying? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MOTATA Would I be reading the situation right if I say or that when Oscar tried to kill you by shooting and he was prevented from so doing, your life was safe there because it was no longer endangered because the community was aware of that? MR LEKABE The community was aware of what sir, can you explain? MR MOTATA Let me do it this way - when you got to Block F were there people there where the body of Bulelwa was lying? MR LEKABE Yes just a few. MR MOTATA Ten, fifteen, twenty, what number could you give to that - it's an estimation so don't think I want a precise number? MR LEKABE About fifteen if not more, I did not count them. MR MOTATA And within these fifteen people was Mr Mokoena one of them? MR LEKABE Yes that's correct. MR MOTATA What I'm saying to you, was your life not safe now because you are with the community and one member has already been stopped from attempting to shoot you? MR LEKABE I do not understand what you mean sir if you say I was now safe? MR MOTATA What I'm saying is that your life wasn't threatened any more because Oscar who attempted to shoot you was prevented from doing so? MR LEKABE I don't know whether will I be making a mistake, if a person tries to shoot you and he is stopped, won't he try to do it some other time? MR MOTATA I mean for the day, now I was saying for that day at least you were safe. MR LEKABE I was not that safe because he could have been shot at also. MR MOTATA Could you tell us when Buthelezi, Mr Buthelezi came to report to you that Ms Bulelwa has been killed. Roughly what time of the day was it when he came to you? MR LEKABE It was five or ten minutes after eight o'clock at night. MR MOTATA And what time did you people with the community, that is the ANC Youth League and the community, attack Blanko? MR LEKABE It was about three o'clock in the morning. MR MOTATA Where did you or when did you now round up the community to make them aware about the death of Bulelwa for instance? MR LEKABE They responded to the whistle, sir. I think many of them came because of Mr Buthelezi's cry. Prior to his crying there was a whistle. MR MOTATA We are made to understand that, that when there is trouble, there would be the whistle and the applicants are saying that they responded to a whistle and went where the trouble was in other words where Bulelwa's body was. Would that happen in that fashion? MR LEKABE That is not correct. MR MOTATA Was there any whistle blown to alert the community that something has happened on this particular day, that is the night of the 6th December 1993? MR LEKABE Yes a whistle blew - I think I explained that people gathered after Mr Buthelezi came to report to me that Bulelwa has died. MR MOTATA Where did the people gather? MR LEKABE They gathered at Block C, there was a Sparza shop in the township where they gathered. They came to me because of Mr Buthelezi's cry. MR MOTATA Are you suggesting that when Mr Buthelezi came to you he blew or alerted the community whilst being at your place? MR LEKABE A whistle blew then Mr Buthelezi came crying to me. Now I think the blowing of the whistle and his cry, the two have a certain meaning. MR MOTATA No, no, I want to say the whistle which was blown, was it blown at Block F or was it blown at Block C? MR LEKABE I do not remember well where the whistle blew, but it was blown. MR MOTATA Let's take it that when the community gathered at the place you're saying - Block C - you obviously advised them that the whistle is blown because Bulelwa has been killed? MR LEKABE I think they gathered because of Mr Buthelezi's cry and he explained Bulelwa's death. MR MOTATA And you did not lead the community to go and verify at Block F about the certainty of Bulelwa's death? You accepted that she was dead and you would act with the community? MR LEKABE On Friday I explained that I tried to go alone with Mr Buthelezi and members of the community said to me listen, you know you've not been on good terms with these people, now they're going to get hold of you and then they are going to assault you. I think I explained that on Friday. MR MOTATA Did you then without you saying to the community go and see at Block F where the body of Bulelwa is lying? You did not do that did you? MR LEKABE I did not do that sir. MR MOTATA Did Buthelezi at your place stay until the community gathered? MR LEKABE He stayed a few minutes while the community was gathering. MR MOTATA Did he explain to the community that I'm here because Bulelwa has been killed? MR LEKABE I am explaining the community gathered because of his cry. They heard from him when I tried to calm him down - I said please come down so that we can understand each other. MR MOTATA How much time did Mr Buthelezi spend on your place when he was hysterical? MR LEKABE I would not be sure because I did not have my watch. It might have been twenty or less than twenty minutes. MR MOTATA When the community gathered could you give us an indication how many people or how many members of the community gathered at Block C where you were present and Mr Buthelezi telling them that Bulelwa has died? MR LEKABE We did not gather at my home we gathered at a Sparza shop. It could have been forty to fifty members of the community. MR MOTATA And Mr Buthelezi had not said who killed Bulelwa? MR LEKABE He had not explained yet who killed Bulelwa. MR MOTATA Whilst gathered at this tuck shop or Sparza shop you deliberated with the community what next to do, isn't it so? MR LEKABE The community pronounced it's dissatisfaction - they said enough is enough. I did not address them. MR MOTATA I want to understand, Mr Lekabe, that at that stage nobody knew who killed Bulelwa. How did you arrive at the decision that you should now round up the members of the SDU and start with the top structure, probably Blanko. How did you arrive because you had no knowledge who killed Bulelwa? MR LEKABE Chairperson I explained already that the community was dissatisfied of the activities of the SDU in Mololeke, they took a decision that enough was enough, they were not going to wait for yet another incident. MR MOTATA Mr Lekabe, is it not the understanding that when the SDU's were formed you were protecting largely the community of Katlehong against Inkatha. Is my understanding correct this far? MR LEKABE It was not against Inkatha as such, it was against any attack that would take place any time. MR MOTATA Yes, you're correct and the other attacks would be acts of criminality against the community? MR LEKABE To give an example, let's say there's a hit car who would be responsible for such attacks. MR MOTATA Yes, now what I'm merely saying, let me be open to you is that whilst I said I want an understanding, my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, that in Katlehong and confining ourselves to Mololeke section, we knew that one of the enemies of Mololeke would for instance be Inkatha, am I right? That's the first? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MOTATA And other people who would attack for reasons unknown, those would also be the enemies of Mololeke section is that not so? MR LEKABE According to the situation, anybody who attacked was regarded as an enemy. MR MOTATA So we have a number of possibilities and quite rightly the community says enough is enough. What I want to find out from you that there wasn't one enemy - how did you come to a conclusion or decision by the community that you should go for the SDU and Blanko in this instance? MR LEKABE I think I explained in my evidence that even though they patrolled there would be some incidents the next day. Now that is the reason why the community said enough was enough - because even during the threats the community was present, that is why the community took a decision. MR MOTATA Yes but you did not explain in your evidence in chief what led the community to say it is the SDU's, you did not say that, did you? MR LEKABE I do not recall. MR MOTATA I can assure you I was listening attentively, you did not, hence I'm asking you that question. MR LEKABE My lord, just elaborate a little. MR MOTATA Mr Lekabe, my question is this simple. I said to you there was an enemy in Mololeke section and then we would say the first enemy was Inkatha, remember I said that? MR LEKABE Yes. MR MOTATA Now there were other people who committed criminal acts and they also were members - they were the enemies? MR LEKABE Yes that is correct. MR MOTATA Now when you deliberated at this Sparza shop where you gathered, where the community said enough was enough, now to specifically go to SDU, what is it that was discussed about the SDU that led you to go straight to the SDU? MR LEKABE I explained Chairperson on Friday that on Sunday the 5th there was an altercation between myself and other members of the SDU. We were fighting for sites in Mololeke. I think the community did not get that right, they thought I was disturbing them in their duty of issuing out sides. Now it was then decided that I should be eliminated before the end of the week. MR MOTATA Mr Lekabe, I tried in many ways to explain this question to you because we know, the first thing Buthelezi did not tell you who killed Bulelwa? MR LEKABE Yes that's correct he did not. MR MOTATA Now you met at this Sparza shop, you were forty to forty five according to your estimation, in other words, during that gathering you did not know as yet who killed Bulelwa? MR LEKABE Yes that's correct. MR MOTATA Now you specifically identified members of the SDU to revenge, you said we now are attacking Blanko. I want to know, when you deliberated, what is it that led you to take that decision of attacking the members of the SDU because you did not know as yet who killed Bulelwa? MR LEKABE My lord, I explained that the community said enough was enough and the allegations that members of the community, the leaders of the community, were supposed to be killed was already flying. I think I explained that my lord. MR MOTATA Yes, my brother, I heard that one but you are not answering my question. MR LEKABE Maybe I do not understand your question. MR MOTATA This is my question shortly - You met at the Sparza shop, during that meeting you did not know who killed Bulelwa? MR LEKABE Yes that is correct. MR MOTATA Now, you knew as members of the community that you had enemies such as Inkatha? MR LEKABE Yes that's correct. MR MOTATA There were other enemies committing criminal activities in Mololeke? MR LEKABE Yes that is correct. MR MOTATA Now you explain already that during the patrols by the SDU there would be things the next day despite the fact of patrolling? Now let's put it this way - we now have three enemies? MR LEKABE Yes you are correct. MR MOTATA Now among these three enemies, one should be responsible for the killing of Bulelwa? MR LEKABE Chairperson can I ask a question? MR MOTATA No answer my question first. MR LEKABE Yes that's correct. MR MOTATA Now there are three enemies. Now what led you to specifically say enough is enough and then you took a decision to go to this other enemy which is the SDU? What is it that you discussed, what is it that you discussed that led you to taking the decision of attacking the SDU? MR LEKABE My lord, I'm explaining that Mololeke is a place that you would not commit a crime in Mololeke and then get away with it. It was that simple. Now the community decided that among members of the SDU the truth must come out. You would not commit an act in Mololeke whether during the day or during the night but you would not get away with that. MR MOTATA No further questions. CHAIRPERSON Did the members of community suspect that Bulelwa had been killed by members of the SDU? MR LEKABE That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Were you present at the gathering where the community said enough is enough? MR LEKABE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Can you recall what time that gathering was? MR LEKABE As I've explained Chairperson, I don't remember time because I spent much time to calm Mr Buthelezi, it might be before nine o'clock or after nine o'clock. CHAIRPERSON Was that gathering subsequent to the visit to you by Buthelezi? MR LEKABE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We know that and I think you told us that you wanted to leave with Buthelezi but the person you were with said or at least advised against going? MR LEKABE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON At what time did you leave to go to the meeting? MR LEKABE Which meeting sir? CHAIRPERSON Of the community where the...[inaudible] MR LEKABE I did not go Chairperson because Mr Buthelezi was calling me to Block F where Bulelwa's corpse was. CHAIRPERSON Buthelezi was calling you to Block F? MR LEKABE That is correct he was calling me to Block F. CHAIRPERSON Were there people who had gathered at Block F? Do you know, if you don't know say so? CHAIRPERSON I see you're shaking your head, either say no or yes. MR LEKABE Do you mean - are you asking that they met at Block F or Block C? CHAIRPERSON Buthelezi was calling you to Block F. You didn't go there? MR LEKABE That is correct sir, I did not go to Block F. CHAIRPERSON Instead you went to Block C? MR LEKABE Mr Buthelezi called me from Block C where I was staying. I did not go with him to Block F. CHAIRPERSON Where was this gathering of the Youth League and the community at which the community said enough is enough? MR LEKABE It was in Block C sir. CHAIRPERSON How did that gathering come about? MR LEKABE As I explained Chairperson, Buthelezi's scream and the blowing of the whistle, I think those are the two means for those people to meet. CHAIRPERSON Was the whistle blown from Block C? MR LEKABE I'm not sure from which direction of the community the blowing of the whistle came from. CHAIRPERSON We were told that if there is an attack or an incident which required the community, a whistle would be blown presumably from the spot where the community was required to come to, is that correct? MR LEKABE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The body of Bulelwa was found in Block F is that right? MR LEKABE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So the whistle in connection with her death would then have come from there, from Block F? MR LEKABE May you repeat your question sir? CHAIRPERSON The whistle relating to the death of Bulelwa would have come from Block F? MR LEKABE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did anything happen in Block C? MR LEKABE What time Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Just before the people gathered there. MR LEKABE Nothing happened on that day but I think people were attracted by Buthelezi's scream. CHAIRPERSON Buthelezi we do know do we not that he was at Block F where Bulelwa's body was? MR LEKABE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Then why did people go to Block C? MR LEKABE As I explained Chairperson that maybe they were attracted by screaming, Mr Buthelezi, sir. CHAIRPERSON At Block F? MR LEKABE As I explained, maybe I was not understood that Mr Buthelezi came from Block F, he went to Block C to call me so that I should go to Block F. CHAIRPERSON What you're saying is that because of Buthelezi's scream when he was at Block C, the community might well have been attracted by that scream to come to Block C? MR LEKABE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON They would have disregarded the whistle which came from Block F? MR LEKABE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So the whistle to them would have been meaningless? MR LEKABE As I've explained that they came to where they heard the scream. CHAIRPERSON Who had gathered at Block C? MR LEKABE As I explained Chairperson, that residents gathered there because with my observation they came from Block B and Block E and Block C. CHAIRPERSON As I recall it you said Blocks A, B and C. Is that right? MR LEKABE That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Bulelwa resided in Block F did she not? MR LEKABE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is there any reason why members of the Block F community were not present there? MR LEKABE May you try to put rightly, do you mean at the spot where Bulelwa's corpse was or at the meeting? CHAIRPERSON ..[inaudible] MR LEKABE I don't know the reason why they were not present sir. CHAIRPERSON Now did anyone address the meeting at Block C, the gathering at Block C? MR LEKABE The way it was Chairperson, is the residents gathered there because of Buthelezi's scream. They asked me of saying "why do we hear the scream?" That is why I addressed them. CHAIRPERSON And then? MR LEKABE I tried to calm down Mr Buthelezi first so that we'll be able to hear directly from him about the screaming. That is when Mr Buthelezi, after he's been calmed down, he said Bulelwa has been killed. CHAIRPERSON The community - that Buthelezi had come to call you and that he had returned to Block F where Bulelwa's body was? MR LEKABE Mr Buthelezi left whilst residents were still gathered there from Block C back to Block F. CHAIRPERSON Was Buthelezi present when the community gathered at Block C? MR LEKABE As I explained that the - for some few minutes whilst he was there - yes the community has already gathered. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] was he still there? When you gave the report to the community at Block C was Buthelezi still present at C or had he left for Block F? MR LEKABE Residents heard from Mr Buthelezi himself after he has calmed down by saying Bulelwa has been killed. CHAIRPERSON Why was it necessary for you again to explain to the community actually what had happened because Buthelezi from what you're telling us had already given that report. MR LEKABE There were some questions of what happened to Bulelwa exactly what happened in Mololeke, I think there were some questions. CHAIRPERSON Is there any reason why the community that had gathered at Block C did not proceed to the spot where Bulelwa's body had been found? MR LEKABE Do you mean from the meeting proceed to the spot or from that meeting back to their respective houses? CHAIRPERSON To the spot where Bulelwa's body was lying. You see I get the impression that Buthelezi, after he had calmed down, explained to the people who had gathered at Block C that Bulelwa had been killed and he then left for Block F. There were questions, you told us, which required you to answer them so what I'm asking is because you then knew that Bulelwa's body had been found at Block F and that is where you were likely to get the information as to what had happened. Why did that community which had gathered there not proceed to Block F to where the body of Bulelwa's was lying? MR LEKABE Some of the residents of Block C, when they said to me I should not go there, it is because the previous week they saw members of the SDU's attacking me and Mr Mosala. That is why they prevented me not to proceed to Block F because I was their target, if I appear there I would land in their hands. CHAIRPERSON The members of the community and the other members of the Youth League were gathered at C, why didn't they proceed to Block F? MR LEKABE I don't know Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What decision, if any, was taken at this gathering at Block C of and concerning the members of the SDU? MR LEKABE Residents said because of - they were emotionally charged - they said enough is enough. They said we should apprehend these people firstly. We should disarm them firstly because they are using those arms to harass the community. CHAIRPERSON You were going to apprehend member with the SDU and take them where? MR LEKABE Would apprehend them and take them to the community. CHAIRPERSON That's the community at that stage - you mean the community that had gathered at Block C? MR LEKABE As I explained that because of - the community was emotionally charged - within those members of the community, the directive came that enough is enough, that we should apprehend these people. CHAIRPERSON You say the decision was taken that you should go and apprehend these people and disarm them. Now I want to find out where were you going to take these people to? MR LEKABE We would take them to the place where we usually hold our meetings which is KBA. CHAIRPERSON Where? MR LEKABE KBA sir. CHAIRPERSON KBA? MR LEKABE It is a place where residents of Mololeke used to hold their meetings. CHAIRPERSON Where about was it located in Mololeke, was it located in Mololeke section? MR LEKABE Yes it is within Mololeke section, it is in the centre of the Mololeke section. CHAIRPERSON In any specific Block? MR LEKABE It is at the beginning of Block D. CHAIRPERSON Did you - was any decision taken as to who was going to take part in the rounding up of the members of the SDU and disarming them or was everybody, both the Youth League members and members of the community, going to take part in this joint expedition? MR LEKABE The whole - all members who were present there, that is members of the community and members of the ANC Youth League will do that expedition. CHAIRPERSON And then did you then go in different directions and in different groups? MR LEKABE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We now know that your group came across Oscar, Sonti and Rooivark? MR LEKABE I don't understand your information is when you say we met Oscar and Sonti? Where, because when I explained on Friday I met them on Tuesday morning when they were looking for us. CHAIRPERSON Well maybe I didn't understand you. From the meeting where did you go then, your group, where did it go? MR LEKABE What time Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON You were at the meeting at Block C, where a decision had been taken that you were supposed to round up the members of the SDU, apprehend them and take them to KBA at the beginning of Block B. Now from that gathering, where - and then you told us that you went in different groups to go and round up members of the SDU? MR LEKABE We went to Block D - Block E - that's where we went to Mr Blanko's place. As I've explained that other members or other groups started at Vusi's place. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] group just proceed straight to Blanko's place - the group in which you were? MR LEKABE That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And did you tell Blanko that you wanted him to go and appear at KBA? MR LEKABE We explained to him that we're coming to fetch him because we are tired about their activities. We requested him to go with us to KBA - that's where he resisted. CHAIRPERSON And then you started attacking him? MR LEKABE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON To your knowledge were any members of the SDU apprehended by the community or the Youth League and taken to KBA? MR LEKABE No Chairperson because they saw when we attacked Blanko, then they assembled. CHAIRPERSON Were you attacked - did members of the SDU come to Blanko's house at the same time that you were there? Did they find you there? MR LEKABE No sir. CHAIRPERSON When you left Blanko's place were the members SDU approaching Blanko's house? MR LEKABE I've no knowledge of that Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON By the time all of you left, the members of the SDU had not yet arrived at Blanko's place to your knowledge? MR LEKABE As I've already explained that I have no knowledge when did they arrive at Blanko's place. CHAIRPERSON There was no shootout at Blanko's place between your group and the SDU? MR LEKABE If I remember well Chairperson, we heard gun shots from us when we finished our work then that is where we went to the place where we stayed. CHAIRPERSON Did you run away from - when you left Blanko's place - were you walking or did you run away? MR LEKABE We were running, running away from the gunshots. CHAIRPERSON Were people following you? MR LEKABE I'm not sure Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What was the cause of the conflict between the SDU and the Youth League? MR LEKABE Chairperson as I've already explained, the conflict started after we saw that members of the SDU's, their activities were not in accord with the community's interests. CHAIRPERSON Did you suspect that members of the SDU were involved in criminal activities? MR LEKABE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You had been suspecting them of this for a long time, is that right? MR LEKABE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But up until Bulelwa's death, no action was taken against them, right? MR LEKABE I said as a leader of the community within the Civic, I wrote a report which I was directing it to their leadership so that they should come and reprimand them for their activities. CHAIRPERSON You wrote the report to who? MR LEKABE I was writing that report to Central because I would take that report to a zonal meeting, then I had an assurance that that report has been taken through to the senior leadership. CHAIRPERSON But did that help? MR LEKABE No it did not help because they were once called by the Central to be reprimanded but they refused to meet the Central. CHAIRPERSON Yes, now, when Bulelwa was killed, it was then that the community and the Youth League members said enough is enough? MR LEKABE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And the community and the Youth League members took Bulelwa's death as being part of the criminal activities of the SDU? MR LEKABE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Okay and this led to the decision, the killing of Blanko. This led to the killing of Blanko? MR LEKABE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And this led to the retaliation by the SDU members on Youth League members? MR LEKABE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And that's how the victims that were shot at the veld met their death? MR LEKABE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON They were killed because they had - they were suspected of having killed Blanko? MR LEKABE According to my knowledge that is how they were killed but according to the version of the members of the SDU they are not telling the truth. That is not the truth they are telling here. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Lekabe. Mr Madasa are you going to be very long in your - do you have any question that you want to put to the witness? MR MADASA Just one, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Just one question ? Okay, well perhaps we should break now for lunch and then what you can do in the meantime, would you take instructions from your Mr Armoed on what the witness had said and see whether there is anything that Mr Armoed would like to dispute? MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON If you would just take the opportunity for the lunch and adjournment to deal with that aspect. The time is, it's quarter to two, we'll come back at quarter past two. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR MOTATA Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Lekabe, as a member or a leader of the community I'm of the opinion perhaps you can shed some light on this question I'm going to ask you and I've got an impression that both members of the ANC Youth League and members of the SDU were ANC members, am I correct? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MOTATA The SDU suspected the Youth League of having killed Bulelwa while the Youth League suspected the SDU - am I correct also? MR LEKABE I do not understand your question are you saying vice versa, the SDU was suspecting the Youth League, the Youth League were suspecting the - I think that's correct. MR MOTATA ...[inaudible] also I think if you know you can say but if you don't know you are free to say that. Oscar says they had an impression that there is some force which is pushing the youth, that's the words he used, he said there are some force whom we think are pushing the youth from behind and at the end under cross-examination he ended by saying "I think the third force was present here." Now talking about the third force - what is your impression, do you think the third force was there or not? MR LEKABE Oscar is not telling the truth when he says the third force was involved because at the beginning of my evidence I mentioned that we patrolled together up to a point where we separated. He is not telling the truth when he says the third force was involved. I do not believe there was any third force involved at all. MR MOTATA One of two issues - Oscar also alleged that Mr Buthelezi played double standards, he would be seen with members of the Stability Unit and then sometimes he would be seen with members of the IFP and also that weapons which were used by the Youth League were among others the R1, the pistols used by the police and that at other stage they used to disarm the police. Your brief reaction to that? MR LEKABE I know nothing of such weapons. MR MOTATA Has it been seen amongst the Stability Unit and the IFP? MR LEKABE That's a pure lie, I do not believe that Mr Buthelezi would be seen in both organisations - the Internal Stability Unit and the IFP. MR MOTATA Apart from their suspicions which were running around, up until today, no one knows who killed Bulelwa, am I correct? MR LEKABE I do not know, but the allegations put forward now is that the member of the SDU did the act - Oscar, Mthembu are the people who are implicated. MR MOTATA Chairperson, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa do you have any questions? MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chair. Did you say Armoed was armed with an AK-47 when they came to pick you up? MR LEKABE It did not work, I looked at him for the sole purpose of identifying him. He had an AK-47 in his hand. I took a thorough look at him. MR MADASA Armoed denies that he was armed with an AK-47. He says he was only given AK-47 at the shack when he was asked to guard the youth who had been apprehended. MR LEKABE It is surprising the way he puts his statement. I explained already that himself and the other one called Movembi tried to shoot at me that time. MR MADASA Now you said the community had mandated you or ordered you to run up SDU members and take them to KBA, remember saying that? MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA Now my question is, the community according to you had guarded at C, why were the SDU members going to be taken to KBA? MR LEKABE Where sir? I want to follow your question thoroughly. CHAIRPERSON Well at the gathering which occurred at C Section. It was decided that members of the SDU would be apprehended and then taken to KBA, is that right? MR LEKABE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Well what counsel is putting to you is that people had gathered at Block C. There was no one at KBA, why were members of the SDU to be taken to KBA where there would have been no one? MR LEKABE In my explanation I said we left with members of the community. Now we were going to apprehend them and leave for KBA. MR MADASA Now why did you not take Blanko by force? According to you you were many when you went to his place - why did you not take him by force, tie him up? MR LEKABE I said this was a very quick meeting, we did not even take anything to tie him up with. Can I carry on? He resisted, he made noise. Now we became aware that he was going to alert the others whom we also wanted. MR MADASA Now you were told by the community to go to Blanko to apprehend him. Was there a report back done to the community as to what transpired at Blanko? CHAIRPERSON Where at KBA? MR MADASA At KBA yes or at C. At KBA or at C was a report back done? MR LEKABE I said when we left Blanko's place it was a shoot out, we didn't manage to go to KBA. MR MADASA Now, amongst other things you were supposed to do according to the community's order was to apprehend and disarm. Did you bring any arms from Blanko's place? MR LEKABE We did not get guns. MR MADASA Did you take the spears? MR LEKABE I do not remember whether they were taken by those who were with me. MR MADASA Now how many people shot Blanko? MR LEKABE We were three, I believe so because the others were armed with 9mm shots. MR MADASA Who are the other two who fired at him? MR LEKABE The other one has since died, his name is Thabo. MR MADASA What did he have? MR LEKABE I have just said that he had a shot gun. MR MADASA ...[inaudible] MR LEKABE That is correct. MR MADASA The other one? MR LEKABE The other one had a revolver. MR MADASA You do not know the name of that one? MR LEKABE I do not remember his name, sir. MR MADASA Was Thabo a Youth League member? MR LEKABE No, he was just a member of the community. MR MADASA The other man, was he a Youth League member? MR LEKABE That is correct, he was. MR MADASA The one who had a revolver, was he an ANC Youth League member? MR LEKABE Chair I said he was one member of the community. MR MADASA You said Thabo was a member of the community. The one who had the 9mm and you said - listen - and you said the other one was an ANC Youth League member, now I'm asking whether the one who was an ANC Youth League member is the one who had the revolver? MR LEKABE No, Thabo had a 9mm. MR MADASA The one who had a flywheel, you called it a flywheel, I think that's a revolver. Was that the one who was an ANC Youth League member? MR LEKABE Thaba was a member of the ANC Youth League and the person who had a revolver was from the community, he was a member of the community. MR MADASA Oh. Thank you Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No questions Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Lekabe you may return to your seat. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Thank you Mr Chair. May I call Jabulani Mtwalo. JABULANI AMON MTWALO (sworn states) MR MAPOMA Where do you reside? MR MTWALO At 6, Leleke. MR MAPOMA Did you reside at that place during December 1993? MR MTWALO Yes I used to reside at that place. Is that zone 6? MR MTWALO We call Mololeke 6, we call it - we refer to it as 6 and when you would try to stop the taxi you put up a sign of 6. MR MAPOMA Is that the same place where you resided in 1993? MR MTWALO That is true. MR MAPOMA Do you recall the incidents of 7th December 1993 which are the subject of this hearing? MR MTWALO Yes I do remember. MR MAPOMA Now on that day where were you? MR MTWALO I arrived on the 6th at Mololeke. Often, times I would spend my time at my mother's place at Salumo. MR MAPOMA Now on the following morning were you at that place? MR MTWALO Please repeat your question, which place? MR MAPOMA At your home at Mololeke. MR MTWALO I was at home the following day on the 7th. MR MAPOMA Now were you approached by any persons on that day, at home? MR MTWALO I will explain it this way. When myself and my friend were still sleeping - Amos - he's an Albino. CHAIRPERSON What is his name, sorry? MR MTWALO Amos is his name. I don't know his surname. We heard knocks at the door and Amos was awoken up and said I mustn't open the door and when I woke up I looked through the window and I saw a group of people outside wearing blankets. I think there were about more than twenty in number if I'm not mistaken. I heard them kicking the door, shouting open, open. I opened the door in spite of what Amos was saying, insisting that we shouldn't open the door. As I opened the door the first person who came in was Mr Ndabe but I did not know his surname at the time and when I was looking around, still around the same group, I saw Oscar as a person who I could identify and Armoed as well and Manzini. CHAIRPERSON Is Manzini present here? MR MTWALO I saw him - he was sitting right at the back. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Okay? MR MTWALO I dressed up, I put on my pair of trousers. As I was trying to look around for my T-shirt, I could not even locate and find my T-shirt because Mr Ndabe, the one who stormed in first in the house as I was asking him as to why people were just coming in, rushing in in the morning, coming to fetch me, where were they taking us? He said I should not ask him anything. CHAIRPERSON And what did he do? MR MTWALO He had a spear with him - he stabbed me with that spear on my arm, right hand arm. MR MAPOMA Are you saying Mr Ndabe stabbed you with that spear on the arm? MR MTWALO That's exactly what I'm saying. MR MAPOMA Then what did they do? MR MTWALO I gathered that these people were there and in a spirit of war. I could not even get an opportunity to find my T-shirt. They instructed us that we should get out of the house, they were there to fetch us. MR MAPOMA So did you get out of the house? MR MTWALO You see the shack had only two rooms. It was only a bedroom and a kitchen. I left Amos in the bedroom, I did not even explain to them that I was with Amos in the house. MR MAPOMA So did they take you away? MR MTWALO Mr Ndabe proceeded through the bedroom where Amos was sleeping. I think when he found Amos he woke him up - I don't know what happened subsequently whether he was assaulted or what because when I tried to ask Oscar as a person I knew as to what was happening, since I was lost and Oscar said I should not throw in questions to him and told others that this very one, his father is a Zulu and he reside in Zonge, Kobese is his name. CHAIRPERSON Okay. How old were you at the time? MR MTWALO I was seventeen years old. MR MAPOMA Sorry, just before that, were you a member of any political organisation in Mololeke? MR MTWALO Yes, I was a Youth League of ANC. MR MAPOMA Okay, you were just saying you don't know what happened of Amos, then what did they do? MR MTWALO You see there were no fences or the fence around the yards of Mololeke shacks, Mr Ndabe was the one pushing me to go out of the shack and we exited at the back of the shack. I saw Amos as well out following us as well - I was in the front. MR MAPOMA Yes? MR MTWALO The only word I heard was that Amos will be assaulted and Amos was assaulted by knopkierrie and they said an Albino cannot see at the night, the sight of an Albino at night is very poor - he can't even see anything and he was released. He went back. MR MAPOMA Now did they go along with you? MR MTWALO Yes they went along with me. The one was, next to me, was Oscar and then Mr Ndabe. MR MAPOMA And where to did they take you? MR MAPOMA I was residing in Block D so we left Block D from Block F. CHAIRPERSON Now, from Block F? MR MTWALO From Block F - We left Block D, we went to Block F. Mr Ndabe was shouting as we're walking saying anyone who knows he is a dog patrolling he should come and see what that dogs have done. MR MAPOMA You arrived at Block F and then what happened? MR MTWALO We met about six people who were keeping guard at Bulelwa's body that was lying there. CHAIRPERSON Did anyone respond to the call by Mr Sonti? MR MTWALO I had no one responding. CHAIRPERSON Was there any indication to you what is it that they were referring to as has been done by the dogs that were patrolling? MR MTWALO I did not know because I was at home sleeping. They also took me from my house and I was at home sleeping. CHAIRPERSON Did they tell you what the dogs had done? MR MTWALO You mean them? No they did not say anything to me. MR MAPOMA Now what happened at Block F? You said that you saw six people who were keeping guard at Bulelwa's corpse? MR MTWALO That is true. When we arrived at the site they handed me over to some man, you know it's not even a man he's a youngster. MR MAPOMA Yes? MR MTWALO They said he should take me with to a shack and keep me there. MR MAPOMA Were you taken to a shack? MR MTWALO Yes I was taken to a shack. MR MAPOMA And when you arrived at the shack was there anyone? MR MTWALO Yes there were others. When I arrived at the shack I found Mtabang already captured, I trying to recall the other - Jacob and Boetie. Boetie is now deceased. MR MAPOMA ...[inaudible] MR MTWALO I don't know. They were tied with a wire the three of them together on their feet and hands with a piece of wire. INTERPRETER MR MTWALO Yes they tied their hands at the back the three of them together and their feet as well, the same pattern. MR MAPOMA Were you also tied? MR MTWALO When I arrived there, the one that was sent to take me to the shack had a piece a wire with and tied my feet and my hands at the back. MR MAPOMA Yes? MR MTWALO And they left us alone in the shack because they were all over the show outside and the members of the community had already gathered as well. On that note, I asked the others who were already captured as to what is happening. They said they were captured at about 4 a.m. they don't know as to what was happening, they were also lost and people were arriving and peeping through the windows and asking: 'hey, you boys, what have you done?' I told them that I was fetched from my shack, I don't even know what was happening. MR MAPOMA Were those people who were peeping through the door members of any organisation? MR MTWALO Those were just members of the community, ordinary members of the community. CHAIRPERSON Did anyone tell those people what you alleged to have done? MR MTWALO They would come in and ask and I will answer for myself and tell them I don't know. MR MAPOMA Then what happen there afterwards? MR MTWALO I will request to say this, that even the person who tied me with wires is here in this hall. It's the one I'm pointing at who is sitting right next to this one, right there where I'm pointing - the one who's even pointing at himself. INTERPRETER Paulos Shongwe. MR MTWALO Yes. He tied me with a wire. MR MAPOMA Then were you joined by others in the shack? MR MTWALO Yes I think at about eleven if I'm not mistaken others joined. The ones that I have clear recollection were Mele, Isaac and Didabe. MR MAPOMA Were they also brought there by the same men who brought you in? MR MTWALO I did not see them as they arrived because they were not taken right inside the shack, they were only standing outside right by the door - we could see them from inside, they were not inside, that is them. MR MAPOMA Then what happened? MR MTWALO Stability arrived to fetch the bodies of the ones who were already killed. MR MAPOMA Yes? MR MTWALO We were kept in the shack. I tried to untie this wire in an effort to escape and I managed to. I also did untie the one on the feet and the other three cried to me that I should do the same with them and I was trying to untie the wires. One woman stood by the door, came towards the door and said: 'here, the thugs are trying to escape.' I don't know her [indistinct] I only know her from sight. As I was trying to untie, they came back those men, they found that I was free and when they arrived they got inside the shack. The one tried to hit me with an axe and it hacked right on the corrugated iron. The axe hung on the corrugated iron - in other words he could not hit me. MR MAPOMA Is that person here? MR MTWALO Yes he is here. That's the one, the one that I am pointing at with the white shirt. INTERPRETER Rodrick Singo. MR MTWALO The other one came with a rope. MR MAPOMA Do you know which one came with a rope? MR MTWALO I've forgotten that one. MR MAPOMA Yes did he tie you with the rope? MR MTWALO Yes when he arrived he said: 'this one is the one who is problematic he is trying even to escape, maybe we should tie him with this rope.' They tied my hands and my feet and they tied the rope right on top. PANEL MEMBER Sir, when you say they tied top what are you referring to? MR MTWALO They tied my feet and this is how they tied my hands on top. MR MAPOMA Did they tie you with...[indistinct] something onto the shack? MR MTWALO They tied my hands, first they tied my feet, secondly they tied my hands and they pulled the rope right to the top and this is what happened and this is how the position was. MR MAPOMA Yes? MR MTWALO I think we're more than 15 now - the boys - the ones who were captured. CHAIRPERSON They kept on bringing other youths into the shack? MR MTWALO Yes. CHAIRPERSON You were approximately 15? MR MTWALO Yes. MR MAPOMA Then when you were that number what happened? MR MTWALO We were taken out of the shack and they said maybe we should take them out of the shack and remove them because the Stability might find them there. We were taken to the last shack in Block F right towards the veld, the last line in Block F. MR MAPOMA Yes, you were in last shack in Block F, the next shack now - what happened? MR MTWALO They took us to that shack, it was still under construction it was not complete and they said we shall get inside and that's where we were kept. After a while as we were still there, Mr Ntebe stomped in. MR MAPOMA Is there anything Mr Ntebe said to you? MR MTWALO He threw a cigarette carton, Consulate. MR MAPOMA Yes, he threw a cigarette carton and said? MR MTWALO And said please smoke because you are smoking for the last time today. MR MAPOMA Now in that shack, were you asked any questions? MR MTWALO They were asking others, the ones that I was captured with and kept with and they were the ones who were responding to the questions, I never even answered back because I told them from the onset that I did not know a thing as they awoke me from a shack and I was sleeping. I heard Mr Ndabe asking Mavuso the one we call Mavuso? I said to Mavuso I said a long time ago Mavuso that one day they will capture you they will get hold of you and today is the day. MR MAPOMA Didn't you ever say anything about Vips? MR MTWALO We just heard that Vips had already been killed, we heard from Mr Ndabe saying 'Hah we've already killed Vips.' MR MAPOMA Who was he telling that they've killed Vips? Was he telling you or the other men? MR MTWALO He was talking to these others and we heard as well - he was telling the members of his group - and we heard because we're in the same company. CHAIRPERSON Can you still recall who was in that group? MR MTWALO Mr Ndabe was present. MR MAPOMA Yes and who else can you recall? MR MTWALO I don't remember the others because I was also dizzy because I was already stabbed as well so my body was a bit numb. I was also losing it, I could not think straight. MR MAPOMA What happened then? MR MTWALO One man from Salumi, Mr Koos, came in. MR MAPOMA Yes? MR MTWALO And he said to me 'are you also here?' and he went out immediately. As we were still sitting there Armoed came in. MR MAPOMA Yes. MR MTWALO I was seated right towards the corner and Armoed called me and I stood up, I went to him. As I was standing up, on that note, he asked others as to whether I was patrolling as well and they said no he wasn't there. MR MAPOMA Asking the other persons who had been? MR MTWALO The other boys that were captured with, he was asking them. He took me outside to the other group and three people were standing outside and other people were standing far away in groups and he took me to the ones that were there, the three of them. MR MAPOMA Yes? MR MTWALO And said to them: 'Comrades, this is my boy, he resides right next to my house in Block D. MR MAPOMA Is there any one of the three amongst the applicants? MR MTWALO I don't remember now. After he said what he said to them they said to me: 'Go' - you are free in other words. As I tried to leave one of them called me. I was naked, I had no T-shirt on top and the other one got hold of me with his nails right at the back and hit me with a fist. MR MAPOMA Can you still remember who that one was? MR MTWALO I don't remember the person. MR MAPOMA What happened then? MR MTWALO And as I was leaving, trying to leave rather, they said to me: 'Hey you, boy, one word that will be said or uttered by you, you are dead meat.' CHAIRPERSON Did they say to you if you go and report what's happening here we're going to kill you? MR MTWALO They said that when they were releasing me. MR MAPOMA ...[inaudible] to be released? MR MTWALO That's how I was released. I left the scene and when I arrived at home I found the place upside down, the whole place was just in disarray. I had to go to hospital to be stitched where I was stabbed. I could not even wash myself up due to the injury that I sustained. MR MAPOMA Did you hear as to what happened with others who were in the shack, who were left in the shack? MR MTWALO As I was still home when I arrived my neighbour came and they were crying, screaming, asking as to what happened. I told them that I left my fellow brothers in the shack there, that's where they're being kept - now I have a problem, you see I'm bleeding profusely now and I don't even have money to go to the hospital and the woman gave me R20, now the lady who is our neighbour gave me R20. MR MAPOMA Is that how you happened to go to the hospital? MR MTWALO Yes I got into a taxi and I left for the hospital. When I came back from hospital, I never went back to 6, instead I went to my mom's home at Saluma. At about 5 in the afternoon I met one boy who was residing at 6 - I don't quite remember his name. He said to me all the boys that you've been captured with and were kept in the shack have been killed. MR MAPOMA Thank you Mr Mtwalo, that's all Chairperson, thanks. MR MTWALO That's how I was saved in the whole ordeal. Now the person who helped me in this was Armoed. Had it not been for him I know I would have been killed today. Now I do forgive Armoed and the one who stabbed me and wired me with I don't forgive them, I don't have any forgiveness for them. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, that's all. CHAIRPERSON Do you know the neighbour who gave you the sum of R20 to go to the hospital? MR MTWALO Yes it's Mabastayas mom. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Madasa? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chair. Now when you were picked up at home was it dark in the shack? MR MTWALO It was in the morning about eight. MR MADASA Sonti says you were mistaken, you were stabbed by - he says yes you were stabbed but by Holomisa - were you stabbed by Holomisa? MR MTWALO I was stabbed by Ntebe, I don't know Holomisa. CHAIRPERSON Do you know Mr Sonti? MR MTWALO I know him very well because I marked his face. MR SIBANYONI Had you seen him for the first time on that particular day? MR MTWALO I beg you pardon? MR SIBANYONI Had you seen Mr Ndabe as you call Mr Sonti - were you seeing him for the first time on the day when he came there and stabbed you? MR MTWALO I wasn't seeing him for the first time that day. MR MADASA Or you were not that acquainted to him? MR MTWALO I knew him well see because he was also from 6, a resident of 6. MR MADASA When you were stabbed what were you doing? MR MTWALO I was resisting to get out of the shack of home in other words, to get out of my home. MR MADASA How many of them were inside when you were stabbed? MR MTWALO Two people came in and the others remained outside. I was taken outside to them and then that's when we left. MR MADASA When you were stabbed only two people were inside? MR MTWALO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Do you know Holomisa that was referred to by [indistinct]. MR MTWALO Maybe I know him from seeing him but I wouldn't claim I know him. CHAIRPERSON What is your answer, do you know Holomisa or don't you know him? MR MTWALO No. MR MADASA Do you know who was the other person who was inside with Ndabe when you were stabbed? MR MTWALO I saw Oscar. MR MADASA ...[inaudible] the inside? MR MTWALO Yes. MR MADASA Is it not possible that when you were stabbed you did not see who was stabbing you but you thought it was Sonti? MR MTWALO No I saw him, he tried to stab me right on the chest and I retreated, that's how he stabbed me on the arm. CHAIRPERSON He tried to stab you on the chest and you avoided the blow with your right arm and you were stabbed? MR MTWALO And he stabbed me on my arm. MR MADASA Did he say anything before he stabbed you? Did Sonti say anything to you before he stabbed you? MR MTWALO Yes he said we are here to fetch you, to pick you up, let's go and I refused thus he stabbed me. MR MADASA Now when you were at the shack, the first shack, are you saying people who wanted to ask you questions were able to do so? MR MTWALO No, no people came in to ask us questions. MR MADASA In your evidence in chief, that people came in and asked what had happened? CHAIRPERSON People were asking: 'What have you done, boys?' MR MTWALO Yes that's how they were asking. MR MADASA The thing is, people who wanted to ask you questions could do so? MR MTWALO If I'm not lying one man came in and I did not know him, he was a third man, he came holding a pistol. When he was asking he would be kicking us at the same time and saying we should tell the truth to what we have done. MR MADASA If they wanted to ask you questions, could they ask? MR MTWALO The lady who came in was Dumeleng's mom. MR MADASA What did she say? MR MTWALO She said she was coming to talk or speak on behalf of her child and she was pushed outside. MR MADASA Who said the criminals were trying to free themselves? MR MTWALO One woman who resided in Block F, I'm not even too sure, she came through - she peeped through that door and that's what she said. MR MADASA Now, you said, Rodrick Singo, number 8, tried to attack you with an axe but the axe landed on the - in the sink or corrugated iron. Was he not scaring you? MR MTWALO I wouldn't know but I thought that he was stabbing, it just hung on the corrugated iron. What if it got free? MR MADASA I mean what if he wanted to chop you, he could have chopped you? CHAIRPERSON But Mr Madasa, what the witness is saying that is that he wanted to but the axe got stuck in the corrugated iron. MR MADASA Thank you Mr Chair. I'm saying, Mr Chair, if Singo, Mr Singo wanted to chop you he could have pulled the axe and chopped you. Is that so? MR MTWALO It got stuck there and he also took it so he still had it on his hand, it never got stuck there forever. He pulled it, it got stuck on the corrugated iron and he took it back. He was trying to chop me this way and that's what happened but he still had it on his hand. He didn't try to chop me after that. MR MADASA Now when you were inside the shack were your friends asked questions about Blanko or Bulelwa's death? MR MTWALO No but what I know is what I heard from Mr Manzini. He was saying something to this effect that we are following Blanko today. MR MADASA Were there any accusations directed at you or your friends? MR MTWALO Please repeat that question? MR MADASA Were you or your friends accused of having done something? MR MTWALO From what I think, maybe it was due to Blanko's death. CHAIRPERSON But did - I think what counsel wants to find out from you is - did anyone make any accusations against any one of you in the shack? MR MTWALO As I said only this man who had a pistol in his hand and came in and kept kicking us and others were crying. Because I did not know, I was quiet, I wasn't being asked a lot but they were asking the others and they would cry as they were being asked. MR MADASA They were told to tell the truth. Were you told what truth you've got to tell? MR MTWALO Yes this man came in and we were tied with this wire. He said we must tell the truth and, no I don't remember. MR MADASA Were you told what was the problem, why you were kept there? MR MTWALO No I did not hear anything to that effect. MR MALAN Sorry, may I just ask here, were you never told that they wanted the truth about Blanko's death? MR MTWALO No. MR MADASA Was Thokozani Buthelezi there? MR MTWALO The thing is I don't know Thokozani Buthelezi. MR MADASA The senior? MR MTWALO No. No. MR MADASA Did your friends accuse each other of having done something or having been asked to do something? MR MTWALO No I was only asked by them as to what has hurt me and I told them that the SDU man came in and I was injured then that was the only thing they asked me since they saw me bleeding. MR MADASA No, that your friends accused each other of some involvement but you did not hear because you were in pain? MR MTWALO Yes I was a bit dizzy now I could not concentrate and I could not hear. MR MADASA Is it possible that they said certain things which you did not hear because you were in pain? MR MTWALO Sorry, please repeat? MR MADASA That your other friends said certain things which you did not hear because you were in pain? MR MTWALO I saw this boy by the name of Dumaleng, he is the one who was busy pointing at Mavuso, I don't know as to what they were arguing about because the other one said you are the one and other one say that back. CHAIRPERSON The counsel is asking you this question, as you were in pain having sustained injury and beginning to be dizzy according to your version and not concentrating much to what others were discussing or what was being discussed at the time, it could happen or it is possible or could it be possible that some of the boys might have said something that you missed? MR MTWALO I heard when we were in the last shack when they were pointing at each other that is is Dumaleng and Mavuso and Dumaleng was pointing at Mavuso saying you are the one and Mavuso would do the same and deny and say I'm not the one. That's the argument I heard. CHAIRPERSON He's not asking you about things you heard or did not hear, what he's asking is, could it be possible, since you were dizzy were there some things that were happening there in the shack that you could not see them? MR MTWALO I did not see anything, we were sitting down on the floor. MR MADASA Did you hear what Mavuso and Dumaleng were accusing each other about? MR MTWALO They were accusing each other about fetching each other at night. The other one was saying you are the one who came at night and that is what they were arguing about or accusing each other about. MR MADASA ...[inaudible] Dondolo, do you know him very well? MR MTWALO Yes I know him. MR MADASA Do you know that he was a commander? MR MTWALO Yes I do know that he was a commander of the SDU but I don't have confirmation of this. MR MADASA Did you hear him when he gave an order that he should be killed? MR MTWALO I heard him say here's a cigarette, smoke for the last time today and he threw it on the floor where we're sitting and he left and that's what he said: 'smoke for the last time today.' The only word I heard was from Mr Manzini saying you are following Blanko today. MR MADASA Was the carton sealed, the carton of cigarettes? MR MTWALO Yes it was sealed. MR MADASA I have no further questions, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA CHAIRPERSON Any questions Mr Sibanyoni? MR SIBANYONI I've got no questions Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malan? MR MALAN I've no questions, Chairperson. MR MOTATA Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mtwalo, do you know this practice that when something has happened a whistle would be blown? MR MTWALO Yes I know. MR MOTATA And if we look at Block D, is it far from Block C? MR MTWALO It will be Block D and the next will be - the first one is A and B is next then C follows and there will be a tar road and then Block D. MR MOTATA If a whistle were to be blown in Block C, would you hear that whistle? MR MTWALO No, I did not hear a thing, I was sleeping, I only heard gunshots at night when we're sleeping. MR MOTATA The question is, if you hear a whistle being - if a whistle were to be blown from Block C, would you hear it in Block D, that's my question. MR MTWALO No, I did not hear it. MR MOTATA What I'm asking you, say Mr Mtwalo, is that when a whistle is being blown in Block C and you're residing in Block D would you hear it? MR MTWALO Yes I would hear it. MR MOTATA And you say on this particular night you heard nothing? MR MTWALO No I did not hear a thing. MR MOTATA When you were taken to the shack it was at Block F, that is the first shack isn't it so? MR MTWALO Yes that's true. MR MOTATA Did you see a body and now we know it was Bulelwa's, did you see a body lying down and being guarded at Block F? MR MTWALO Yes, I saw it, we passed by it because the shack was not far away from where the body was lying. MR MOTATA Did anybody or anyone tell you whose body that was? MR MTWALO No one said a thing to me with that regard. MR MOTATA Did you ask anybody even your co-captured people in the shack? MR MTWALO What I asked them was: 'What's happening, why you're captured here because now I've been stabbed, it looks like we're sailing the same boat and what is the problem?' and they said we've been captured at about 4 a.m. we don't know why. MR MOTATA Now when you returned to your shack at D, did you find Amos? MR MTWALO Amos had fled, I understand he came back, he took his possessions or his clothes because he had a few pair of trousers at home, he took his clothes, he did not even bid anyone farewell, he just left. MR MOTATA Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Do you know Mr Armoed's children? MR MTWALO Yes I do know. CHAIRPERSON Did you used to play with them? MR MTWALO Yes we used to play with his children. CHAIRPERSON Mr Madasa? MR MADASA Mr Chair it's not strictly arising from the questions from Mr Chair but just one question which I left out. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR MADASA When you were released did you gain the impression that you were released because you nothing to do with the allegations that were levelled at your friends? MR MTWALO I was released purely on the grounds that I had done nothing. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Just one question Chairperson. Weren't you saying you were released by Mr Armoed because he knows you? MR MTWALO Please repeat your question? MR MAPOMA Didn't you say you were released by Mr Armoed because Mr Armoed knows you, you are staying nearby his place? MR MTWALO Yes, released me because he knew me since his house is opposite our house. MR MAPOMA Thank you, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mtwalo, you may stand down. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Thank you Chair, I feel like making a request for a short adjournment just to consult with the members of the family on a particular aspect. Unfortunately Chairperson I couldn't get enough opportunity to ...[inaudible] with that particular one. I don't think will be too long. CHAIRPERSON How much time do you need? MR MAPOMA I think I need about 5 - 10 minutes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON How many witnesses do you still have to call? MR MAPOMA I intend calling only one Chairperson if I get instructions from the family. CHAIRPERSON Ten minutes will take us to ten to four and we intend rising at four o'clock so I doubt whether there is anything we can do in about ten minutes. MR MAPOMA Yes sir. CHAIRPERSON Okay, we are of the view that perhaps we should rise for the day if - in that time. MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson, I would be comfortable with that. MR MADASA Sorry Mr Chair, I have a request to make. I did not do this during the time my case was open because I wasn't sure whether this person was relevant to my case but there is one family member of the victims, a mother of one of the victims, whom I've spoken to, whom I intend calling to Mr Chair's permission to give short evidence in regard to her feelings about her son's death and forgiveness in regard to the applicants. I'm therefore asking permission from Mr Chair if could permit me to call that witness tomorrow - very short evidence. CHAIRPERSON Is that witness going to give evidence often concerning the issues before us mainly whether or not there's full disclosure or there was any political motivation or it's going to be significant to give evidence that's strictly relevant to the issues before us? MR MADASA Mr Chair, that is why I'm making this request because I know that her evidence is not relevant to those issues, however, it may be evident when one takes the whole case in totality as to her preparedness to forgive the applicants. CHAIRPERSON Very well, discuss the matter with Mr Mapoma and see whether you can reach any accruement in that regard otherwise, speaking for myself, I do not think there is any problem if she wants to testify. Very well, would you discuss the matter, nature of the evidence with Mr Mapoma and then would you let us know tomorrow morning at quarter to nine what accruement if any you have reached otherwise we don't have any difficulty with that evidence. Okay the Committee will now rise, we'll reconvene tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. Mr Madasa and Mr Mapoma would you please make sure that those officers, whether it's the Department of Correctional Services or whether it's the Department of the South African Police Services who are having custody of Michael Armoed - ensure that he is brought here at least by half past eight tomorrow morning so that we do not have the situation which arose this morning where we have to commence without the applicant being present, a situation which I must confess I find highly undesirable because I believe that somebody has not done his duty somewhere. Would you make sure that Michael Armoed is brought here by 8.30 tomorrow morning? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Will you all rise and we'll reconvene at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS