amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS CAPE TOWN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54647&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/capetown/capetown_1kond2.htm do with it and actually they are saying that the foot soldiers did this on their own, let us just get back to that. You....(tape ends) MR BOOYENS MR DU PLESSIS Yes. MR BOOYENS The security branch was involved that you reasonably ascertain where a person was, when he left the country, when left Lesotho with the aeroplane etc., is this correct? - this is regarding the Eastern Cape. MR DU PLESSIS MR BOOYENS Mr Kondile disappeared - I know it goes a bit broader but there are also other people who disappeared without a trace, which resulted in enquiries made in the media etc. MR DU PLESSIS MR BOOYENS The standard apology which was offered by you most of the time, was that the person had left the country to join the ANC, is that correct? MR DU PLESSIS Yes. MR BOOYENS Now, the investigation of these allegations. You are a policeman yourself, what was the impression? How hard did you try to investigate these allegations? MR DU PLESSIS MR BOOYENS Did they ever - was any enquiries directed to you where you were asked whether these people infiltrated: "Where is the man, that we can answer the questions", "We have the intelligence network, can you tell us where he is"? MR DU PLESSIS No. MR BOOYENS MR DU PLESSIS MR BOOYENS MR DU PLESSIS No, we did not. MR BOOYENS MR DU PLESSIS My impressions were that it was either the security force or the defence force. MR BOOYENS In other words, South African security forces? MR DU PLESSIS Yes. MR BOOYENS Be it military or police? MR DU PLESSIS MR BOOYENS Mr du Plessis, did you have anything personal against Mr Kondile? MR DU PLESSIS Most definitely not. MR BOOYENS Your contact with Mr Kondile resulted from the work that you did? MR DU PLESSIS MR BOOYENS MR DU PLESSIS No, not at all. MR BOOYENS If it was not for the fact that he was involved in the underground war that was raging and you as well, do you think that it would ever have resulted in his death - that you had planned and taken part in his death? MR DU PLESSIS Definitely not. MR BOOYENS As far as you are concerned today - the political struggle has been fought and many people on both sides have died during that political struggle, as far as you are concerned, did you ever act as far as these matters are concerned other than as a security policeman? Your actions as in the case of Kondile, did this have anything to do with the fact - did it have anything to do anything other than your duty as a security policeman? MR DU PLESSIS No. MR BOOYENS Do you therefore confirm the contents of the application, together with the additional evidence that you gave? MR DU PLESSIS MR BOOYENS MR DU PLESSIS The vehicle was never there. MR BOOYENS You link the death of Mr Kondile to the telexes and the occurrence book entrants of August, is that correct? MR DU PLESSIS yes. MR BOOYENS According to you, the death of the 10th of August when he was released, when was he killed? MR DU PLESSIS The next day, the 11th of August. MR BOOYENS MR DU PLESSIS I have no knowledge of this, it was definitely not like this. MR BOOYENS As far as your knowledge goes, did Mr Kondile sustain a brain injury? MR DU PLESSIS No. MR BOOYENS Did you ever fear that he would have a brain injury? MR DU PLESSIS No. MR BOOYENS Was he killed in order to hide such a brain injury? MR DU PLESSIS No. MR BOOYENS MR DU PLESSIS MR BOOYENS The allegations regarding assaults which have already been made, you acknowledged that you also assaulted Mr Kondile and that you heard that he had complained that the East London people had assaulted him, is that the sum total of your knowledge of the assaults? MR DU PLESSIS MR BOOYENS After you realised that the man had ...[inaudible], did you assault him? MR DU PLESSIS Yes. MR BOOYENS Did he still work with you and give you information? MR DU PLESSIS MR BOOYENS The information that he gave then, was it still correct? MR DU PLESSIS I cannot think of one case that was not correct. MR BOOYENS Would it have served any purpose when you realised that the man was not prepared to co-operate with you, to go further? MR DU PLESSIS No, not at all. MR BOOYENS The reason why you assaulted him, what was that? MR DU PLESSIS MR BOOYENS In conclusion, you assaulted him to get information out of him, information needed for police investigations? MR DU PLESSIS MR BOOYENS Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS ADV DE JAGER Your initials are? MR DU PLESSIS H.B., Hermanus Barend Du Plessis. ADV DE JAGER And your rank at that stage was - in 1981? MR DU PLESSIS Captain as far as I know. ADV DE JAGER Was there a Brigadier Du Plessis at that stage? MR DU PLESSIS Not that I know of. ADV DE JAGER Was there not a Brigadier who was a Commanding Officer of the Boarder Police, a H.J. Du Plessis? MR DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER Was there more than one van Rensburg in Port Elizabeth? MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON The decision to eliminate Kondile was as I understand, taken by three of you, Erasmus, van Rensburg and yourself? MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON And as I understand, Erasmus was at that time the most senior of the three of you. MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON After the execution of Kondile, did you have to report to anybody who was your superior, that Kondile had been killed? MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON When Kondile had complained that he had been assaulted by the police in East London, did he use the word: "assault" or did he use the word: " torture"? MR DU PLESSIS No, he said: "assault", he used the word: "assault". CHAIRPERSON Did you ever bother to find out what the nature of that assault was? MR DU PLESSIS Unfortunately not. CHAIRPERSON Whilst you were interrogating him, what injuries did he receive? MR DU PLESSIS External injuries: none at all. CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS I want to believe that he - it was possible that he was examined but I cannot remember and nor do I have any documentation to prove this. CHAIRPERSON That was not at your request? MR DU PLESSIS It is possible, but I cannot remember. CHAIRPERSON Was it not as a result of an injury that Kondile had sustained to his head, that required examination? MR DU PLESSIS Definitely not. CHAIRPERSON Did the doctor tell you what the result of his examination was of Kondile? MR DU PLESSIS I cannot recall at all that Kondile was examined by a doctor, what I am saying is that it is possible that a doctor could have seen him. CHAIRPERSON Who to your knowledge, would be the one who might know whether Kondile was examined by a doctor? MR DU PLESSIS I do not know. CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS If I can remember correctly, I think it was Warrant Officer Jonker who was the station commander. CHAIRPERSON Who was the most senior of the security police at the time? MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS Now General Erasmus, then General van Rensburg and after him it was I. CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS I do not understand what you mean. CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS I think he would have had to make that complaint to the station - commanding officer and they would have informed us and the necessary arrangements would have been made for him to see a doctor. CHAIRPERSON Now, I want to talk about something else now, what happened to the documents that you had found on his bed? MR DU PLESSIS They were destroyed. CHAIRPERSON By whom? MR DU PLESSIS The documentation that he wrote to me, I destroyed and the other one - I do not know what happened to that, I do not know what happened to the notes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Are there any questions that you would like to put to this witness? CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR MOOSA There are. Mr Erasmus, I want to direct your attention to the last page, the last question of your application that is on page 22 of the 1st Volume. CHAIRPERSON This is Mr Du Plessis. MR MOOSA Under question 14, you say that you have tried in the application to make it as complete as possible, is that correct? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR MOOSA But today with your verbal testimony, we have seen quite a lot - we have heard quite a lot which does not appear in the application at all. CHAIRPERSON MR MOOSA Mr Chairman, I was coming to that. What in fact happens with your statement, is that you gloss over everything and really start in essence, with the meeting you have with your senior, would that be correct or a fair summary? MR DU PLESSIS We met one another before we made these statements. MR MOOSA By: "we", you mean? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA And it would at least include the three other applicants we have listed in this application, that is Mr van Rensburg, Mr Raath and Erasmus, is that correct? MR DU PLESSIS I think they were also there, yes. MR MOOSA Was anyone else from the Eastern Cape who was there? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Niewoudt was there as far as I can recollect. MR MOOSA Anyone else? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA Of course there could have been other people? MR DU PLESSIS It is possible, yes. MR MOOSA And was this just one meeting or a series of meetings where you exchanged statements? MR DU PLESSIS No, it was only one meeting we held as far as I can remember. MR MOOSA And when was that? MR DU PLESSIS It was shortly before the due date, it was shortly before these statements were made. MR MOOSA And where did you get together? MR DU PLESSIS We met in Pretoria. MR MOOSA So, would it also be fair to say that you exchanged information and you basically decided together what should be in the application and what should not? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA You also had before you at that stage already, the statement by Mrs Kondile as well as by Dirk Coetzee, did you? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA Had you seen it at that point? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA I want to refer you to page 59 of Volume 1 - this is a statement made by you. Look at paragraph 2 of that statement, could you read it out to us? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR MOOSA So, in fact you did have knowledge of the allegations made by Mr Coetzee? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA You were obviously not involved with the actual arrest of Mr Kondile, did you hear about this though immediately that it occurred? MR DU PLESSIS That he was arrested? MR MOOSA Yes. MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA Now, it is the version of my client that Mr Kondile was not in fact arrested trying to come back into the country, he was arrested - he was in fact kidnapped from the Lesotho side. MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA You have told us that you grew up in a strict Afrikaner home and your family were members of the Dutch Reformed Church. MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR MOOSA I take it, that includes yourself? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR MOOSA Later on in your testimony you told us that you had to do what is necessary and did not care about the destruction of family and family structures, in pursuing what had to be done to protect the government, is that correct? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I did not say that directly but for me what was important was the total onslaught and the protection of the government of the day, as well as the white population in South Africa and therefore I was prepared. I was trained and I was indoctrinated in this way and I thought I was right at that stage in doing so. MR MOOSA You say, at that stage you thought it was right? You have actually gone to great lengths to highlight the political nature as you consider it, of your actions. Do you still consider it right? - I think the term you use is that you were protecting Western and Christian values. MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR MOOSA You also said that you acted in a bona fide manner in doing what you did? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR MOOSA Indeed you say you acted in that fashion at all material times - that you acted in good faith at all material times? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR MOOSA But Mr Du Plessis, you surely knew that the actions you executed were unlawful, they were illegal, did you not? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I knew that. MR MOOSA So the reality is that you would stop at nothing to achieve what you call political ends? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA Even if it meant killing a 23 year old and burning his body? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA You say that was the only alternative. Other people have spent time in detention, some as much as 27 years, was that not an alternative? MR DU PLESSIS It was not. If that was the case, he had contact with other people and he would expose the information network and we would have been cut off regarding information and that would have been catastrophic for the Eastern Cape. MR MOOSA Up to the time that you actually visited Mr van Rensburg, you were in fact in charge of the interrogation, is that not so? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR MOOSA Indeed, up to that point there was no need to consult your superiors as far as the interrogation in the Eastern Cape was concerned? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA And when you say: "headquarters", where is that? MR DU PLESSIS Firstly, in Port Elizabeth and then security headquarters in Pretoria, that is what I did. MR MOOSA And as far as headquarters was concerned, who in fact was the most senior person in the Eastern Cape? MR DU PLESSIS Now General van Rensburg and Colonel Erasmus. MR MOOSA So in fact, when you consulted the superiors that you consulted when you realised there was a problem, you were consulting headquarters, not so? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA And being overall in charge of the interrogation at that time or up to that point, any injuries that were sustained and any assaults perpetrated on Mr Kondile, you would be ultimately responsible, not so? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR MOOSA From the time he arrived at Humansdorp, where in fact you first saw Mr Kondile, do you know - plus minus, how many times he been interrogated? Was it a daily thing or were there gaps in-between, what happened? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS No, I was at all times in charge of interrogation. MR MOOSA And were you at all times physically present during such interrogations? MR DU PLESSIS No, no. MR MOOSA Other people would then be ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Sorry to interrupt. MR DU PLESSIS No, he was also interrogated by other people. For example, in East London I was not present during his interrogation. MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR MOOSA Now, I was talking about the Eastern Cape, were you always physically present when Mr Kondile was interrogated with regard to Eastern Cape? - that as I understand it, is P.E. and environments? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR MOOSA So, if Mr Kondile sustained injuries - serious or otherwise, you would definitely know about that? MR DU PLESSIS I think so, yes. MR MOOSA So what your evidence really is, is that Mr Kondile sustained no injuries and certainly not the injuries of the nature described by Mr Coetzee who received it in turn according to him, from Mr van Rensburg? MR DU PLESSIS that is correct. MR MOOSA: And what that must mean is that Mr Coetzee is lying to us, not so? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA Well, he certainly said that he was told the man was seriously injured but to him the man looked normal. MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA But you are saying that he is lying in relation to what he says he heard from Mr van Rensburg? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA CHAIRPERSON MR MOOSA ...[inaudible] questions was put properly, in the sense that I asked very clearly - I stated very clearly that this is what he got from Mr van Rensburg, I did not say that this was information that Coetzee was imparting directly. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MOOSA CHAIRPERSON MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS Comment on what? MR MOOSA On whether you are lying - on whether you are saying that Mr Coetzee is lying about the information he said was imparted to him by Mr van Rensburg? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA Mr Coetzee is also telling us that he saw the vehicle that Mr Kondile was using and he describes that vehicle, are you aware of that? MR DU PLESSIS I am. MR MOOSA Now, are you saying that Mr Coetzee is lying in relation to that? MR DU PLESSIS Definitely. ADV DE JAGER MR MOOSA Now, taking it that you are saying that Mr Coetzee is lying in relation to that aspect, the question that I have for you is, what reason does Mr Coetzee have to lie? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR MOOSA I have quite a way to go. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ADV DE JAGER You are still under oath. HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moosa? MR MOOSA Thank you Mr Chairman. MR DU PLESSIS No, not that I know of. MR MOOSA Does that mean he never visited you? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR MOOSA Now you say you found a note under the bed in which you were waiting for Mr Kondile to have a bath, is that right? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA Then there was a bed in those quarters, and was it the same quarters that were depicted in the photo album which is in Volume 1? - that is pages 35 to 38 of Volume 1. If you look at that photographic album, photograph A gives us a general overview of the police station and if you look at C on page 38, you can see the room where Mr Kondile was allegedly held, is that correct? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct, but we are referring now to the offices and in my letter I referred to the cell. MR MOOSA Was Mr Kondile interrogated in the room which is depicted in photograph C on page 38? MR DU PLESSIS MR BOOYENS UNKNOWN CHAIRPERSON Yes. UNKNOWN Thank you Sir. CHAIRPERSON MR MOOSA Well, also a big window Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MOOSA Mr Coetzee has always mentioned that he found it strange that Mr Kondile was held in what he called: "The White Quarters", are you familiar with that? MR DU PLESSIS I think he put it like that, yes. MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA Well, you can comment on this, Mr Kondile was surely a big fish, he was a very important catch for the security branch, not so? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS In connection with what? MR MOOSA In the way you hold him, in the way you make sure that he is secure and guarded all the time. MR DU PLESSIS While he was in the cells he was not guarded, he was guarded in the office or in the single quarters later on. There were policemen who were on night duty and they did night duty at those cells. MR MOOSA When we spoke of a big fish Mr Du Plessis, this man was a trained terrorist in your own version, who was close to Chris Hani, is that right? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR MOOSA Could you give a reason why he was interrogated for quite a while by policemen other than in the Eastern Cape section of the security branch? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA Well, let me start again, you were in daily contact with Bloemfontein and it is Bloemfontein that I was referring to. MR DU PLESSIS No, I was not in daily contact with Bloemfontein, I would say: "on a daily basis". Before he went - was transferred to Port Elizabeth, I was in contact with him and they with me but not on a daily basis. MR MOOSA The question really is, why was he interrogated by the policemen in Bloemfontein for what was in fact a period of as much as two weeks? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS I think that they would have decided that later on but initially I decided that he should be transferred. MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS I think so, yes. MR MOOSA So surely Mr Du Plessis, you are in a position to answer on basis Mr Kondile was interrogated by security branch policemen who happen not to be from the area in which he would likely be ...[indistinct] MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA Yes, did you want to highlight something in this encrypted message? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS Unfortunately that is the case, yes. MR MOOSA What does emerge quite clearly [indistinct] which you felt he would be best able to fill. MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS I took all possible steps, yes. MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA Besides yourself who was effectively in charge, who were the other policemen involved at different times in the interrogation of Mr Kondile? MR DU PLESSIS I cannot give you detail, what I do know is that Sergeant Raath was involved, he was also with us when we went to the Division Border and Transkei with him. MR MOOSA Yes, anybody else? MR DU PLESSIS As far as the guarding was concerned, Sergeant Dunster was involved. MR MOOSA Talking about Sergeant Dunster, you have no doubt seen his statement? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA It appears Mr Chairman, at pages 42 to 52 in the 1st Volume. Now, did I get you right, Mr Dunster was involved in the guarding, are you saying that he was not involved in the interrogation? MR DU PLESSIS As far as I can recall, yes. MR MOOSA Of course that means that he was involved in the interrogation? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA Anything is possible, and in his statement he says he was indeed involved, is that right? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA Does this jog your memory, were these other people present who are listed here besides Sergeant Raath? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA Niewoudt was involved with Mthimkhulu, you are however saying he was not involved with Kondile at all? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA The Dunster affidavit also tells us about methods of interrogation and on page 42, it speaks about: "The Spook" which is how a certain method was referred to in security circles, do you know about: "The Spook"? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA Tell us about: "The Spook". MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS I have no knowledge of that. I do know that I requested him to go together with Mr Raath to guard him in the single quarters. MR MOOSA But he is specific, he talks about the torture of Sizwe Kondile. MR DU PLESSIS I cannot help you any further. MR MOOSA Of course you are the person who would know if there was torture? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA And what he said is, that Mr Kondile was severely tortured and that the words: "We do not want another "Biko" case", came from you. MR DU PLESSIS Most certainly not. MR MOOSA Are we to believe that this is a coincidence, that the same words were uttered by Mr Coetzee who claims he got it from Mr van Rensburg? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA Well, lets see what we have, we have you who lied in a statement, lied to the Harmse Commission, would you agree with that? MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS I do not want to express an opinion on that. MR MOOSA And the tubes and the electrical tyre shocks which were described at length by Mr Dunster, you say never occurred? MR DU PLESSIS Not with this person, definitely not. MR MOOSA Well, Mr Dunster has other important information for us and this is that Mr Kondile refused to give you certain vital information. MR DU PLESSIS I have no knowledge of that, perhaps he concealed things from me but I do not know about it. MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS I deny that. MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS I have no comment. MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA There would be very few people who could really tell it to him, one of them would be yourself, the other Mr Raath and perhaps Mr Dunster. MR DU PLESSIS Or possibly Mr van Rensburg. MR MOOSA Or possibly Mr van Rensburg. MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS MR MOOSA MR DU PLESSIS I can tell you that there are court cases where such things have been happening which served as confessions or tried to serve as confessions, pages were written from the cells. MR MOOSA But here - according to your version, you are talking about someone who wants you to believe that he is co-operating and he is willing to work for you. MR DU PLESSIS