amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1997-10-28 CAPE TOWN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54649&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/capetown/capetown_2heidel.htm HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: (s.u.o.) JUDGE WILSON ADV ARENDSE Yes, Mr Chairperson. JUDGE WILSON The first three that I referred to were all in 1992 and must be three of the four that he refers to in his statement which he confirmed. He said he was involved in four incidents in 1992 as I understand the statement. Can you tell me what those incidents were and whether there have been in fact amnesty applications made in respect of all of them. ADV ARENDSE Thank you Mr Chairman. I think the best person to ask is perhaps Mr Gqomfa - to explain to us Mr Chairman, if he be recalled. CHAIRPERSON Are you not aware of them? ADV ARENDSE JUDGE WILSON Did you hear what I said to your counsel? MR GQOMFA Yes, I heard it. JUDGE WILSON Right, what were the four incidents that you were involved in 1992? MR GQOMFA It is the incidents that you referred to, the first one ...[intervention] INTERPRETER The interpreter could not hear the speaker. CHAIRPERSON MR GQOMFA Okay. It is the incidents that the Chair referred to, the first one was on the 18th of March 1992, it was in connection with the Zastron bridge. The second one happened in Lady Grey, I think it occurred on the 22nd of March 1992. The third one on the 10th or the 11th of October 1992 as well. JUDGE WILSON What was that one? MR GQOMFA JUDGE WILSON Sorry, let me clear - the first was at Zastron on the 18th of March, the Zastron bridge one, the second one was at Lady Grey on the 22nd of March, is that correct? MR GQOMFA Yes, that is correct. JUDGE WILSON And the third one was where? CHAIRPERSON Umtata. MR GQOMFA JUDGE WILSON MR GQOMFA 1992, yes. JUDGE WILSON And the fourth is the Umtata police station and is that - the date given in this letter is July 1992? MR GQOMFA JUDGE WILSON And have you applied for amnesty in respect of all four of these incidents? MR GQOMFA Yes, I made applications for amnesty for all the incidents. There are other incidents that I gave to Mr Mbandazayo, I think three others. JUDGE WILSON You gave to who? MR GQOMFA Mr Mbandazayo. JUDGE WILSON Now is there one - are you also still facing trial in respect of the Zastron incident? MR GQOMFA Yes, I am going to court on the 3rd of March next year but those are not the cases I had referred to Mr Mbandazayo. JUDGE WILSON No, he said there were three other incidents he referred to him. MR GQOMFA Yes, there were three others that I referred to Mr Mbandazayo. ADV SANDI Which court is that that you must go to for the Zastron incident? JUDGE WILSON The Free State High Court. MR GQOMFA This was going to take place in Smithfield but it was postponed in Bloemfontein until next year. JUDGE WILSON I would ask those responsible to see whether they can find the applications in respect of these matters and I hand over the file now and refer to the ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON What has happened in respect of the Lady Grey matter, was there a trial? MR GQOMFA I burnt a farm house. JUDGE WILSON Was anyone in it? MR GQOMFA No, according to my knowledge there was no-one inside. CHAIRPERSON Did that result in a prosecution? MR GQOMFA No, there is one person who was charged for this, I was not in jail yet at the time. CHAIRPERSON And what can you tell us about the Xhlala bottle store case? MR GQOMFA What do you mean Sir, would you like the details of the incident? CHAIRPERSON No, has there been a prosecution in that matter? MR GQOMFA No, nobody was sentenced, I was arrested - I could not hear the last words of the speaker, the previous sentence. CHAIRPERSON My question was, was there a prosecution, was there a file? MR GQOMFA Yes, I was out on bail for R500,00. I did not go back because of other commitments and this case is still in the hands of the law. JUDGE WILSON What were you charged with? MR GQOMFA Armed robbery. JUDGE WILSON And the Umtata police station? MR GQOMFA JUDGE WILSON What crime? MR GQOMFA CHAIRPERSON That armed robbery case, in which court was that supposed to take place - the trial? MR GQOMFA JUDGE WILSON Well, could you tell us what these three others are - if you want to. MR GQOMFA It was the killing of people, three different people. I cannot remember clearly the dates now. CHAIRPERSON Well, tell us who you killed and when and where. MR GQOMFA CHAIRPERSON Who did you kill? MR GQOMFA JUDGE WILSON How do you spell - do you know how you spell his name? MR GQOMFA S-i-q-h-o-l-o. JUDGE WILSON Where did you kill him? MR GQOMFA At Xhumbu in the Transkei. JUDGE WILSON Why did you kill him? MR GQOMFA JUDGE WILSON What form? MR GQOMFA The application I handed over to Mr Mbandazayo. JUDGE WILSON An application for amnesty or what sort of application? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON MR MBANDAZAYO JUDGE WILSON Who did you write to here? MR MBANDAZAYO JUDGE WILSON But in respect of this applicant you say that these three forms have been sent and are here at this office? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I can confirm that because I did send them to this office. CHAIRPERSON MR GQOMFA The other one was at Inxhobo. CHAIRPERSON Tell us about it, what did you do? MR GQOMFA CHAIRPERSON Yes, I want you to now tell me who you killed? MR GQOMFA Mr Stembele Mgcebeshe. CHAIRPERSON Can you spell that surname please. MR GQOMFA N-g-c-e-b-e-s-h-e. CHAIRPERSON When was that? MR GQOMFA CHAIRPERSON And the third one? MR GQOMFA CHAIRPERSON MR GQOMFA CHAIRPERSON When was that? MR GQOMFA I think it was in 1993, I cannot remember the exact date. JUDGE WILSON And did you kill that man? MR GQOMFA Yes, we killed him. CHAIRPERSON When you say: "We killed him", you and somebody else or just you? MR GQOMFA There were other people too. CHAIRPERSON Now in respect of these three matters - these three people, have there been any cases that have started against you? MR GQOMFA No. CHAIRPERSON JUDGE WILSON Sorry before that, there are one or two points I would like to clear up with this applicant, again arising from his statement. You talk in your statement of going to the Heidelberg Tavern about three days before the incident with Maxeba, the driver of the car and Makweso. MR GQOMFA That is correct. JUDGE WILSON Did you drive to the Heidelberg Tavern on that occasion when you went to inspect it? MR GQOMFA Yes, we drove. JUDGE WILSON What car? INTERPRETER The interpreter could not hear properly. JUDGE WILSON Can you repeat the name of the type of car please? MR GQOMFA It was a Ford Courier bakkie. JUDGE WILSON Who provided it? MR GQOMFA It is a car that Speech used all the time. JUDGE WILSON Who? MR GQOMFA Sepiwe Makweso. JUDGE WILSON MR GQOMFA What do you mean by calibre? JUDGE WILSON The size of the cartridge - 9mm, 7.65? MR GQOMFA JUDGE WILSON MR GQOMFA What do you mean? JUDGE WILSON MR GQOMFA JUDGE WILSON Do you know the calibre of an AK47? MR GQOMFA JUDGE WILSON I take it we can evidence about that. ADV ARENDSE Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER JUDGE WILSON MR GQOMFA No, I did not go to the Congress. JUDGE WILSON Well who told you about the Congress? MR GQOMFA The other Africans who were in the same region as myself that came back from the Congress. JUDGE WILSON Who? CHAIRPERSON Other people. MR GQOMFA The regional executive, Mabusela and Dala. JUDGE WILSON So they will be able to talk of this? MR GQOMFA What? JUDGE WILSON That the PAC had resolved to intensify the armed struggle. MR GQOMFA Yes. JUDGE WILSON MR GQOMFA They were in the negotiations. JUDGE WILSON MR GQOMFA I cannot hear the question clearly or understand the question clearly. JUDGE WILSON MR GQOMFA JUDGE WILSON The Zastron, the Zastron bridge application that we have spoken about already - that you have confirmed happened on the 18th of March 1992, you remembered the date, why are you know having difficulty remembering the application? MR GQOMFA JUDGE WILSON I asked you if you made a lengthy explanation when you lodged that application. MR GQOMFA Specifically the Zastron application? JUDGE WILSON Yes. MR GQOMFA Yes. JUDGE WILSON There you said Do you remember writing that as a reason for what you did? MR GQOMFA Now I understand clearly. I think you will also remember that this prevailing situation at the time, the political situation - just to refresh your memory, there was Codessa 1 and Codessa 2. The PAC realised that this was not a genuine platform where we could negotiate about the country matters. First of all there were too many shortcomings in that Codessa, as a result you will remember the stand the PAC took - you could not be a player and a referee at the same time. The PAC then demanded a neutral venue under a neutral Chairman. The approach to Codessa 1 and Codessa 2 proved the stand and the reservation of the PAC ...[intervention] INTERPRETER Could the speaker repeat the last three sentences please. MR GQOMFA What I was saying is, firstly you will remember well the political situation at the time. The PAC took a stand that they needed a neutral Chairman under a neutral value where these negotiations would take place. Our position was, they could not be players and referees at the same time - this was done by the racist regime. They were negotiating and supporting third force elements at the same time and innocent African people were being killed. There was no sincerity from the South African Government, that is why the PAC took the stand that it did. The White people - we wanted the White people to understand that we are not blood-thirsty. We realised that our liberation would end up being the liberation of the White man. We needed to remove that stigma that Azanian people had, we take them as our fellow countrymen. The reservations and the fears of PAC were such that Codessa was not a genuine platform to negotiate about the South African situation that ended up a failure - I think history proved us right. I hope that everything is clear. JUDGE WILSON Thank you for the moment. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, there are three matters that - with permission of the Committee I simply want to put to the applicant, that arise out of Judgement which forms part of the bundle. It relates specifically to matters raised by Judge Wilson regarding the ammunition found at the scene - with permission of the Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR Mr Gqomfa, I want to refer you to the Judgement. MR GQOMFA I do not have this document in front of me. MR PRIOR Do you not have the bundle? CHAIRPERSON Just let him have this. MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRIOR "After the shooting incident at the Heidelberg Tavern, the official police photographer Paul van Zyl collected 92 x 5.56mm spent cartridges which was handed to Warrant Officer Compion. He is an expert with regard to the microscopic investigation of amongst others, marks which firearms leave on cartridges. He came to the conclusion that the spent cartridges were fired in three different firearms, these were R type rifles which would be R4, R5 or R6" I want to refer you to another portion of the record, page 60 of the paginated bundle, at the bottom of the page lines 28 onwards - I quote: "The Heidelberg Tavern cartridges all 5.56mm ...[intervention] MR GQOMFA Which page are you on Sir? MR PRIOR Page 60. MR GQOMFA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Where on page 60? MR PRIOR "The Heidelberg Tavern cartridges, all 5.56mm were fired in three different firearms. One of these firearms is the same as that which was also used in a unrelated crime". Just for you comment, according to the Judgement there were no 7,62mm or AK47 cartridges found at the scene. MR GQOMFA In connection with the cartridges that were found there? MR PRIOR According to the Judgement - you were at the trial, the evidence was unchallenged, there were only 5,6 sorry, 5,56mm - that is R type weapons, no AK47 cartridges were found on the scene. Is that correct? MR GQOMFA MR PRIOR My final reference to the record - page 43 of the bundle ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON One reference ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER JUDGE WILSON On further reference before you go on, at page 61, line 18 JUDGE WILSON ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER JUDGE WILSON There was an AK47 used in the attack on the police station, did you remember that evidence? MR GQOMFA Yes, that is correct. JUDGE WILSON But not at the tavern. MR GQOMFA AK47? There was an AK47 used at the Heidelberg Tavern. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. I just want to make one final reference to the record. Page 43 of the Judgement at the last paragraph, the Judge was summarising the evidence and he says, I quote Insofar as that refers to the attack, what is your comment - that two persons, Black persons entered the tavern, one shorter than the other immediately before the shooting? MR GQOMFA MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Mr Arendse, are there matters which you would like to cover under re-examination at this stage? ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE As you please Mr Chairman.