amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-10-28 CAPE TOWN 2 VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54650&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/capetown/capetown_2heidel.htm CHAIRPERSON You may call the next applicant. ADV ARENDSE Mr Madasi? CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE The settled one of this morning. CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Very well, go ahead. ADV ARENDSE Can Mr Madasi be sworn in Mr Chairman? VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please proceed. EXAMINATION BY ADV ARENDSE "I am an applicant in this matter and I am 26 years old. The facts to which I depose are true and correct and within my personal knowledge unless the context states otherwise. I went to school and passed standard four. I joined the PAC in 1988 through AZANYO and I joined APLA in 1992 while I was in the Transkei. I also underwent military training in the Transkei under one Mzala. I was involved in three APLA operations before the Heidelberg Tavern attack. The first one was in the Eastern Cape in approximately March 1993 and the other two were at the Nyanga East and Lingelethu West stations which have been referred to by Humphrey Luyanda Gqomfa in his affidavit. The affidavit of Gqomfa has been read to me, I understand the contents and I confirm it insofar as it relates to me and I respectfully request that it be incorporated in this affidavit. With regard to the first operation, we had received our instructions from Leshlapa Mfashlele but the Cape Town operations including the Heidelberg Tavern operation, we received our instructions initially from Nonuba and subsequently from Gqomfa who was the commander of our unit. The first time I was told of which targets we were to hit was on the day the operation took place". Now Mr Chairman, the material and very critical and important amendments relate to paragraph 7, so I just want to ask Mr Madasi to relate to the Committee, his role in the Heidelberg Tavern attack. Mr Madasi, according to your comrade Luyanda Gqomfa, you were - your job was to fire the rifle grenade as a withdrawal signal, do you remember that? MR MADASI Yes, I can remember that. ADV ARENDSE Now on the night of the attack, is that what you did, in other words to only fire the rifle grenade? MR MADASI ADV ARENDSE Can you tell us then what else you did and why you did it? MR MADASI I went inside the tavern because I could see that there was someone who was doing some movement inside the tavern, so I took an initiative to protect our unit as a whole. I decided to right inside the tavern and I went inside and I started shooting until all the bullets were finished. ADV ARENDSE While you were inside the tavern, what did you fire with? What weapon did you use? MR MADASI I had an R4 rifle. ADV ARENDSE MR MADASI MR MADASI We know now that the grenade failed to explode, we know that, is that right? MR MADASI ADV ARENDSE MR MADASI ADV ARENDSE Do you still have the photographs there in front of you? Mr Madasi, I think you ...[intervention} MR MADASI No, Sir. ADV ARENDSE Can a seat be made available to the witness please? CHAIRPERSON Yes. CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE As the Chairman please. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please do carry on. ADV ARENDSE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON You have before you, the photographs? MR MADASI Yes, I have then. ADV ARENDSE Can you look at the first set of photographs on page 1. MR MADASI ADV ARENDSE Can you indicate to us where you entered? MR MADASI There are two doors here, I entered in the one opened - on the left one. ADV ARENDSE According to the sketch plan which is Exhibit B, as you enter that door which is open there - do you see that? MR MADASI JUDGE WILSON ADV ARENDSE I wanted to ask him that Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON Sorry. ADV ARENDSE Now as you - if you look at the second photograph on page 1, - as you enter that door, is that wall there with the panelling, do you see that? Would that be on your right or on your left as you enter the door? MR MADASI There are walls on the left and the right-hand side, the one I can see when you go in is the one on the right. ADV ARENDSE You referring to the second photograph on page 1 of the photos? MR MADASI ADV ARENDSE So where would the - if you look at the photos on page 2 at the bottom, the second photographs on page 2 where you see the benches and one of the deceased or two of them sorry, and the raised area there - the raised platform area and if you see it again on page 3, the second photograph and one sees it again on page 4, where would that area have been as you entered the tavern? MR MADASI ADV ARENDSE Where were your other comrades positioned? Can you remember where they were positioned? MR MADASI I remember comrade Luyanda and comrade Jantjie clearly, they were standing by the double door. The other comrades were standing at the car, Comrade Maxeba was at the car as a driver. ADV ARENDSE And on the photograph on page 1 the first one, you refer there to those - where you saw Gqomfa and Jantjie, are those the double doors there? Where they there? MR MADASI ADV ARENDSE And you saw them there as you entered. MR MADASI When I was entering they were standing by the double doors. ADV ARENDSE And when you saw them there were they standing there, were they shooting? What were they doing? MR MADASI They were shooting Sir. ADV ARENDSE Did they get to the doors - the double doors, did they get there before you entered? MR MADASI No, they were standing outside, they did not go inside. They were shooting practically from outside. ADV ARENDSE Were those doors open or were they closed? MR MADASI ADV ARENDSE MR MADASI ADV ARENDSE Now a question may well be asked of you and I might as well ask you, if you have some flexibility and you have some initiative - is that what you said? MR MADASI Repeat the question please. ADV ARENDSE When you are involved in an operation you have some flexibility and initiative, is that what you said? MR MADASI Yes. ADV ARENDSE Now my question is - when you entered the tavern, did it not occur to you or did it not appear to you that the people inside the tavern - at least on their appearance in terms of their dress, that they were not members of the security forces? Did that not occur to you then? MR MADASI CHAIRPERSON MR MADASI No, that did not occur in my mind. JUDGE WILSON Did you expect them to be security people of policemen? Did you expect the people in the tavern to be policemen or security people? MR MADASI Please elaborate. JUDGE WILSON Had you got any reason to think that inside the tavern there were security officers or policemen? MR MADASI JUDGE WILSON ADV ARENDSE Maybe Mr Madasi, can you tell us - what were you told, who was going to be there, why did you ...[intervention] INTERPRETER Can the attorney wait for us to interpret the witnesses answer please. MR MADASI I was just told ...[intervention] INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON MR MADASI Please repeat the question. CHAIRPERSON Please repeat that question. ADV ARENDSE Can you tell us, what were you told to expect at the Heidelberg Tavern? Why did you have to attack the Heidelberg Tavern? MR MADASI No, we were not given a reason. ADV ARENDSE MR MADASI Yes, I remember that evidence. ADV ARENDSE Were you not told that that was the reason why you were to attack the tavern? MR MADASI No, as soldiers we were not told, it was his own information that I could not defy because he was also obeying orders from people above him. ADV ARENDSE You said that you saw a movement inside the tavern. MR MADASI That is correct. ADV ARENDSE And did you react to that movement you saw in the tavern? MR MADASI Yes, that is why I decided to go inside because initially I was standing by the door. ADV ARENDSE Mr Chairman, just for the record, from page 48 onwards the presiding Judge in his Judgement also then summarises the evidence of one Justin Fouche, from line 18 onwards and it is his evidence that he would have got up to run through the back door. The Judge says at 22, 23 and 24 "He was the only witness of the incident in the tavern" ...[intervention] MR MADASI What page? ADV ARENDSE Page 48, line 22. MR MADASI Thank you, I have found it. ADV ARENDSE "He was the only witness of the incident in the tavern who could see anything really important of the attackers" Do you recall this witness giving that evidence in court? MR MADASI Yes, I remember such evidence. ADV ARENDSE Would it be correct to assume that he would have been the person that you saw getting up and running through the back door? CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE As you please Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MADASI Therefore what question am I answering here? CHAIRPERSON MR MADASI JUDGE WILSON ADV ARENDSE JUDGE WILSON What he says is that he ran to the front door. ADV ARENDSE JUDGE WILSON MR MADASI JUDGE WILSON Well tell us how far you went into the tavern, did you go through that door to the right? MR MADASI Yes, I entered but I did not go in too far - inside too far. I was shooting, I could see people vaguely but I was already shooting until I lost all the bullets I changed over the magazine. At the passage, it is where I launched and then I left but I could see the people when I was inside. ADV SANDI What sort of people would you say you saw? In appearance, how did they appear to be - like how would you classify such people? MR MADASI ADV SANDI Would you say these were people you could associate with the security forces? MR MADASI As I said, I was not told about the people inside the tavern, I was just ordered to get there and shoot because there would be people there. ADV SANDI Did you say a few minutes ago, you did not know the reason why these people were to be shot and killed? MR MADASI ADV SANDI So when you were shooting, you were just shooting for the sake of shooting? MR MADASI I was obeying an order, I want that to be clear. I was obeying an order, I could not defy it. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR MADASI ADV ARENDSE JUDGE WILSON ADV ARENDSE MR MADASI ADV ARENDSE My question is, if they were shooting from that end whether the doors were now open or closed. Were you not in danger of being shot at or being hit by them - by their fire? MR MADASI No, because there was a wall that I took cover from. ADV ARENDSE Is that the wall that we see here on page 1 of the photographs, the second photographs? MR MADASI That is correct. ADV ARENDSE Now Gqomfa said in his statement: "The attack lasted for about two to three minutes, I then withdrew last, the others were already in the car which was idling and was moving very, very slowly. After I got into the car, when we approached the robot some shots were being fired in my direction. I rolled down the window and opened fire, I now know that the fire which I had returned had hit one Noselino Tchiquerra and fatally wounded him". Then paragraph 28: "From Observatory we drove back to Site C in Khayelitsha. I instructed Madasi and Maxeba to go up - to go and dump the car". Can you just tell us a bit more about that instruction. Firstly is - do you confirm that instruction that you were told by Gqomfa to go and dump the car with Maxeba, is that right? MR MADASI That is correct. ADV ARENDSE Can you just tell us a bit more about how you went about dumping this car, where exactly did you go and so on? MR MADASI ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR Ladies and Gentlemen, will you please stand as the Committee leaves the room, thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY ADV ARENDSE (cont) CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV ARENDSE Reads "Apart from the fact that the witness which would be Justin Fouche, or that observation had been attacked in cross-examination, criticism was also expressed with regard to his action in that he would have run towards the front while it had to be clear him that it is exactly from there that the shooting was coming from. He insisted however that he did run down the passageway and that he did see what he had claimed to have seen. His testimony in this regard is confirmed by his two friends or comrades, Todd and Bradley. Todd Schoeman told the same story as the other witnesses, in addition he says that he himself, Julian and Bradley dived under the table when the shooting started. ADV ARENDSE I just wanted to mention that because I was mistaken to put it to the witness or to suggest that this witness had run to the back ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON ADV ARENDSE JUDGE WILSON Nor do I. ADV ARENDSE Yes, the problem was initially ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON He never said he went to the back door. ADV ARENDSE ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON He believed it. Yes, he believed it, not Fouche. We record that Mr Arendse, thank you very much. ADV ARENDSE "On Thursday the 30th of December 19" ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Are you going to read the entire affidavit or are you going to refer to some special portions of it? ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Has he read this statement? ADV ARENDSE Unless you want to propose to me or suggest how ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Yes, has he read the statement? ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think if you can focus on any particular section ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON MR MADASI JUDGE WILSON No, what did you do after you left it? What did you do after you left it? MR MADASI I tried to organise transport to take me back to Section C, fortunately I got some public transport - I went back to Site C. ADV ARENDSE Can you recall more or less in which road or street in Guguletu at Section 3, you parked the car? MR MADASI ADV ARENDSE MR MADASI NY15? ADV ARENDSE NY113 facing NY1115. JUDGE WILSON 115 or 1 15, not 1115. MR MADASI ADV ARENDSE Is NY129 near to NY113 or NY115? MR MADASI ADV ARENDSE Was there another vehicle involved - in particular I refer to a White Audi with an XA registration? MR MADASI There was no car in that street. ADV ARENDSE Was there such a car at all before, during or after the Heidelberg Tavern operation? MR MADASI No, I saw no such car. ADV ARENDSE Do you know Dumisa Ntsebeza? MR MADASI ADV ARENDSE Are you sure that it was only you and Maxeba in the vehicle? MR MADASI ADV ARENDSE Now originally there would have been - in other words from the time you left the tavern, there would have been six of you in the vehicle, is that correct? MR MADASI Yes, it was six of us in the car. ADV ARENDSE Is it your evidence then that the four others who were with you and Maxeba, they were left in Site C in Khayelitsha and you and Maxeba then left to dump the car - as you put it? MR MADASI That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON I understand the word: "dump" here, must mean abandon is it? ADV ARENDSE Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. ADV ARENDSE When you went to abandon or dump the car, where was the arms and ammunition at that time? MR MADASI The other comrades that alighted at Site C took the weapons. ADV ARENDSE So just to confirm then, when you left the car where you left it Section 3 in Guguletu - this is now the blue Opel Record, there were no arms or ammunition in the car, is that right? MR MADASI There were no weapons. ADV ARENDSE Can you tell us whether you or any of your other comrades, whether you know first hand whether any of you wrote down any directions or names of streets or of the Heidelberg Tavern for that matter, on a piece of paper while you were sitting in the car? MR MADASI I do not remember such. ADV ARENDSE Well specifically, can you - did you write anything on a piece of paper? MR MADASI ADV SANDI Who knew the direction Mr Madasi, to get to the tavern? MR MADASI Comrade Maxeba and Luyanda. ADV ARENDSE Mr Madasi, you were accused number one in the criminal trial, is that correct? MR MADASI That is correct. ADV ARENDSE And you were arrested with Mabala your comrade there next to you on your left, at a roadblock in Elliot. Is that right? MR MADASI That is correct. ADV ARENDSE When more or less were you arrested? MR MADASI On the 4th of January 1994. ADV ARENDSE Is it correct that the keys of the stolen blue Opel Record, those keys were found in your possession at the roadblock when you were arrested? MR MADASI Correct. ADV ARENDSE Mr Chairman, I just propose then to continue reading from the prepared statement, if I may request that paragraph 7 then be - a lot of evidence has been given and that it be regarded as suitably amended unless Mr Chairman, you want me to actually effect the amendments and ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE Yes. Paragraph 7 then goes on to read Mr Madasi - you say here "I deeply regret the loss of life caused by the attack and I ask the families of the victims involved for forgiveness. As an APLA soldier I carried out my instructions and I did not question them. I however believed in the armed struggle being waged by APLA and that is why I joined APLA to become a soldier. Do you confirm that Mr Madasi? MR MADASI Yes, I confirm it. ADV ARENDSE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV ARENDSE ADV SANDI Mr Madasi, can you please give us more information about this Opel Record. Who did it belong to, how was it taken from this person, why was it not returned to him? MR MADASI As I heard in court, the owner of the car was Mr Mankanchu. We took the car from Khayelitsha, we took it forcibly because we wanted to carry out our mission. In court we heard that the car belonged to Mr Mankanchu - I heard that it court. ADV SANDI Why did you have to use a stolen car for such an operation, were you not concerned that whilst you were trying to undertake your operation the police could give chase and find you with those arms in the vehicle even before you carry out the operation? MR MADASI ADV SANDI I think you do not understand - you have not understood the question Mr Madasi. In an operation like this, I take it that you were concerned that it would have to be successful, not so? MR MADASI Correct, so what is your question? ADV SANDI MR MADASI I will try to answer this question as follows: They did not know where we were going with the car and what we were going to do, we just told them that we were going to hit the oppressors. Where we were going to do it or how we were going to do it, they did not know. It would have been difficult for the police to know our whereabouts - that is how I will answer your question. ADV SANDI I hear what you say but why not take the car back to the owner once you have finished what you wanted to do with the car? MR MADASI The place where we left the car at reflected a respect for the people - for the owners. We did not know whether they had gone to the police, this is why we left the car there. The owner got the car back in good condition. ADV SANDI MR MADASI There was no chance to do that. ADV SANDI Okay, thank you Mr Madasi. JUDGE WILSON So why did you take the key of the car with you? MR MADASI CHAIRPERSON MR MADASI CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] for my sake, why did you not return the car to the individual from whom you had taken it? MR MADASI CHAIRPERSON MR MADASI ADV SANDI answer the questions as we ask you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Prior? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Madasi, you say you received training in the Transkei before you joined APLA or was it after you joined APLA that you received the training? MR MADASI After I joined APLA. MR PRIOR And that was in 1992, is that right? MR MADASI Correct. MR PRIOR Can you - how long before the Heidelberg attack was that - that you had joined APLA? MR MADASI A year and a few months. MR PRIOR Thank you. You say your instructions before the Heidelberg attack were simply that you were to carry out this attack, you were following orders and you said in your evidence a short while ago "We were told we were going to hit the oppressors" Is that correct? MR MADASI Yes, I was told that we were going to hit the White man who took our land, who oppressed us - where we were going to hit them, I was not told at the time. MR PRIOR Did you understand that you were going to kill White men on that evening? Is that your understanding? MR MADASI Yes, I was told that we were going to hit the White man - everybody knows who the oppressor was. MR PRIOR And did the White man also include young women as well? For example university students, was that included in your understanding - were they included? MR MADASI According to the education I received, the battle within - the battle APLA was lodging was fighting the oppressor, who you were or what you were was irrelevant, if you were an oppressor we would fight against you. MR PRIOR Please explain to this Committee how the patrons at Heidelberg on that evening - and we know it was a mixed audience with Black people, Coloured people, Indian people and White people - predominantly young students, how did they fit into your description of the oppressor? Could you answer that question please? MR MADASI MR PRIOR Please answer the question. On your own version now you admitted going into the premises, shooting at least one person who you saw moving in the tavern. MR MADASI MR PRIOR Would you agree that the statement that was prepared on your behalf yesterday, made no mention of you entering into the tavern? ADV ARENDSE OBJECTS CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] to ask whether the draft is correct or not. Let him answer that. ADV ARENDSE Mr Chairman, I corrected that I pointed out this morning before I started with the witness that I wish to effect certain amendments to the statement ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON You did, you did. ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE MR PRIOR ADV ARENDSE As far as the line of questions is concerned, I obviously cannot stop Mr Prior from pointing out that the application is blank as far as the details of the incident is concerned and I would submit that that should be the basis on which he proceeds. But otherwise these prepared statements were handed purely to facilitate this process and purely to have the copies run off. CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE Well it should approximate your instructions, I would agree with that. CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE But I think it runs the risk of then drawing into question the credibility of the legal representatives and the instructions they took and how they put it across. I think runs that risk. CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE Mr Chairman, can the people behind me stop making comments here, if they can just respect the process? CHAIRPERSON I will clear this hall if there is going to be any interference with these proceedings - please. Do carry on. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Madasi, is it correct - the statement that has now been amended in your evidence but as it stood as of yesterday, were those facts that were contained in paragraph 7 all the facts that at that stage you had stated to your legal representatives? CHAIRPERSON I think that you should just simplify your question Mr Prior. MR PRIOR As the Chair pleases. CHAIRPERSON Is it correct that in this statement short as it is, no mention is made of you having entered. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR Is it not correct that you consulted with your legal representatives over the week-end? MR MADASI CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Put it to him. MR PRIOR Mr Madasi, first of all I want to suggest to you that indicating to your legal counsel that you simply entered into the restaurant and shot, would not have taken too much time, do you agree? MR MADASI JUDGE WILSON Surely the most important that you would have been asked was: "What did you do" and surely you would have said: "I went in through the door and shot people". MS GOZA Mr Chair? JUDGE WILSON I would like the witness to answer the question please. MR MADASI I want to emphasise that we are in jail ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR MADASI CHAIRPERSON Do carry on. MS GOZA CHAIRPERSON ....[inaudible] so. MS GOZA I wish to put it on record that I consulted with the applicant - I went to Victor Verster on Wednesday, I think it was Wednesday and in my instructions with the applicant the applicant had always maintained that he went into the tavern. JUDGE WILSON MS GOZA Mr Chair, could I get the opportunity to explain the circumstances. My colleague went and consulted in Victor Verster on Saturday - on that day I was not there, he drafted the statements on Sunday. Those statements were produced in these hearings unsigned on Monday. We all did not have an opportunity to have a look at those statements. Insofar as this may be important for the full disclosure requirement that the applicant has to meet, I request that it be put on record that in my instructions when I consulted him, that is what he had always said. Thank you. ADV ARENDSE I accept that we accept the brief and that we must fulfil that brief but we are also doing that under very difficult circumstances, including making the arrangements for these applicants to come from various prisons outside the Western Cape when we have to do that in our own time and for which we are not remunerated Mr Chairman. So Mr Mabala was the last applicant that came there on Wednesday and that is only when we had an opportunity of sitting down with all three in order to get out ducks in a row. CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON JUDGE WILSON CHAIRPERSON That should clear the air, we may now proceed. Will you proceed with the next aspect of the case. MR PRIOR ADV SANDI Is that a question or a statement to him Mr Prior? CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR ...[inaudible] MR MADASI What is the question actually? MR PRIOR Well, let me try and simplify it. Your evidence now has been affected or influenced by what you saw - to a very large extent yesterday, on the screen - on the video. MR MADASI First of all I disagree with you because what I saw yesterday I was not seeing it for the first time, we saw it in court. MR PRIOR All right, I want you to look at Exhibit A, the bundle that you have of photographs. Now when you arrived at the Heidelberg Tavern in the stolen Opel motorcar, who was the driver? MR MADASI It was Maxeba. MR PRIOR And where had the - was Maxeba also from Cape Town like yourself? MR MADASI MR PRIOR Where - was Maxeba from at that time, the Transkei? MR MADASI MR PRIOR Well, did he seem to know Cape Town or did he not seem to know Cape Town at all? MR MADASI MR PRIOR All right, who - when you stopped in the street outside the tavern, can you tell us what occurred then - who got out and who went where? MR MADASI MR PRIOR Is that the door that we see on the first photograph? Mr Chairman, could we mark that first photograph, the pages are marked in numerical sequence, could we mark the top photograph small a and the bottom - the second photograph, b just to facilitate identification. CHAIRPERSON We will do that. MR PRIOR If you look at 1a on Exhibit A, you indicated the door that is open to the left as it appears on the photograph - that is the door where you entered, is that correct? MR MADASI Do you mean the left door? MR PRIOR Your left, as you look at the photograph. MR MADASI Yes, this is the door that I used. MR PRIOR And that door was open, is that correct? MR MADASI Yes, it was open. MR PRIOR And you entered into the tavern through that door? MR MADASI Yes, I used that door. MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR Listen to my question - when you stood at that door, did you then during the attack go inside the tavern? MR MADASI Yes, I did went inside the tavern. MR PRIOR How many steps or paces would you say you to took inside the tavern? MR MADASI MR PRIOR All right, now look at the windows of the area where the double doors are situated, that is the area underneath writing: "Bar and Restaurant". Can you see that? MR MADASI Yes, I can see the broken windows. MR PRIOR Did you enter into that portion of the establishment? MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR Did you never move from that position where you had taken cover behind the wall? MR MADASI You mean from inside? MR PRIOR That is correct. MR MADASI I moved as I was leaving through the door. MR PRIOR What I want to establish, did you go any further into the tavern while you were shooting or when you were shooting? MR MADASI First of all that tavern has a passage - I went inside just a bit, as I was walking in I was shooting. I did not start shooting only when I was inside, I was shooting as I was going in - my cover was the wall. MR PRIOR If you look at Exhibit A, photograph 2a, is it correct you can see cartridges in the passageway? That is immediately in front of the door by which you entered the premises. CHAIRPERSON Do you see those white circles? MR MADASI Yes, I can see them. MR PRIOR Would you agree that those must have been - as you say you entered and shot whilst you were entering the tavern, those must have been some of your cartridges that we see on the floor, is that correct? MR MADASI You could put it that way. MR PRIOR Did you shoot from any other position other than that passageway? MR MADASI I was shooting from the passageway. MR PRIOR Into where the people were sitting at tables or sitting on top of tables, is that right? MR MADASI I was just shooting everywhere at people, I was shooting. Where people were I shot. MR PRIOR Look at the second photograph on page 2, photograph b, can you see the two deceased persons lying on the raised portion? MR MADASI Yes, I can see it. INTERPRETER From the previous answer the witness had said that the rifle was on repeat - the attorney was going too fast, I could not interpret that. MR PRIOR Were you shooting on automatic fire? MR MADASI That is correct. MR PRIOR MR MADASI Yes, I can see that. MR PRIOR Now you say that you were the only person that fired or shot inside the premises. MR MADASI MR PRIOR Can we then accept that that cartridge must have come from your rifle? MR MADASI Yes. MR PRIOR I want to suggest to you that you must have been very close to those deceased persons who you shot, for your cartridge to have ended up where it in fact did. MR MADASI There was people - when I entered there was already shooting and I was shooting too, if I see this picture clearly these people are right opposite the glass door from where the other comrades were shooting from. I could not have gone in and started shooting at closer range because my comrades were also shooting, I could also have been killed. MR PRIOR I hear you and are you then suggesting that those people we see on the photograph 2b, possibly were shot by Mr Gqomfa and Jantjie who were shooting through the window from the outside? MR MADASI MR PRIOR So would you agree that maybe in the excitement of the attack, you could have gone very close to the people who you shot - allowing the cartridges to fall as we see photograph, one on the table, one near the head of the deceased on the raised portion and if we turn over the page to page 3, under the bench and also page 4 at the foot of the raised section to the left of Rolanda Palm where she was lying? MR MADASI The question is not clear. MR PRIOR MR MADASI That is not correct. I was inside - as I was the person inside, I was shooting from the passage. If I had gone in and be almost amongst those people, I would have put my life in danger because the other comrades were shooting - I would have put my life in danger. MR PRIOR Yes, the evidence that was lead at the trial and also the question put by Mr Cornelius yesterday suggested that after the initial shooting there was a lull and thereafter more shooting occurred and the impression that Mr Cornelius certainly suggested to Mr Gqomfa, was that it was an automatic fire but shooting one and two rounds at a time, in other words deliberate fire. MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI That is correct Sir. MR PRIOR MR MADASI Correct Sir, I was not meant to have gone in because of the situation. There was somebody who emerged from the branches, I saw him coming as a soldier ...[intervention] MR PRIOR Was that person armed? MR MADASI MR PRIOR To shoot that particular person and stop him from running away? MR MADASI ADV SANDI MR MADASI CHAIRPERSON Is the position not that whether there was movement of people or not, you had gone there to kill people. You had gone there to shoot whether there was movement or not ...[intervention] MR MADASI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So even if there was no movement of people, you would have still gone there to shoot because those were your orders. MR MADASI I was going to shoot but I was not going to enter the tavern, the reason why I went in is because I saw that person. The orders I was given was I had to stand in my position. MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI Yes, I had to protect them and myself, I did not know whether that man was armed or not. MR PRIOR But you could see him moving down or moving across the passage? MR MADASI As I was standing by the door I saw someone emerging from the chairs running past the door - it was well lit, I could see this man. I did know what he was running to. MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR You say it was lit - the interior was well lit? MR MADASI MR PRIOR I want to ask this finally - this question, in that good lighting - the lights, could you see young girls sitting on tables drinking drinks? MR MADASI I entered shooting, there was already shooting when I entered and when I entered as well I was shooting already - I did not see clearly all the people. MR PRIOR Was the rifle grenade not fired first, before you shot? MR MADASI No, it was on my waist. MR PRIOR Did you not fire - did you not stand at the door with the rifle already attached onto your rifle? MR MADASI MR PRIOR So are you saying that whilst you were still inside the tavern you attached the rifle grenade to your rifle - to the end of the rifle, and then only at that stage shot the rifle grenade? MR MADASI I want to clarify this matter, after the magazine was finished it first gave me a notice like any other rifle. I turned it over, I put it on R4, I launched with it as a withdrawal sign - I was still on the passageway. MR PRIOR Can you just explain why a rifle grenade was used to give a withdrawal signal and not any other means, for example a flare or a whistle or a shout? Why a rifle grenade taped with wire nails adhered to it? MR MADASI MR PRIOR Who gave you that order? MR MADASI Comrade Luyanda as the commander of the unit. MR PRIOR Did you know what - if that rifle grenade had exploded what - would it have done more than simply signal the withdrawal? MR MADASI A grenade is a bomb first of all, it was going to hurt a lot of people, it was going to kill and injure - I knew that. MR PRIOR MR MADASI We did not take this material from the Transkei, we found it here and we found it as it was. We found it with the nails on and the wires, we did not add them on. MR PRIOR Could you possibly just - this is important, where exactly or can you remember where were you in relation to the doorway when you fired the rifle grenade? And if you could look at possibly photograph 1b. MR MADASI The second photograph? MR PRIOR Yes. MR MADASI MR PRIOR Bu you were appreciably inside the premises, in the corridor, in the passage, not out on the street when you fired it? MR MADASI I was not on the street, I was inside the tavern not far from the door. MR PRIOR Where were you aiming if you look at the photograph? In the background I understand that is the bar area that you can see between the wall and the staircase, were you aiming in that direction in other words to fire towards the bar - the rear of the premises? MR MADASI My back was towards the door, I was facing towards - I shot towards the direction where I faced. MR PRIOR Yes, but just describe it on the photograph, the second photograph 1b. In which - did you fire it towards the rear of the premises to the left hand side of the staircase? MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI As I launched the rifle grenade it did not land right in front of me, it landed quite a distance from me - it takes a number of seconds for it to explode, in those seconds I could have left. MR PRIOR At that stage of firing the grenade, was there still shooting going on from Mr Gqomfa, Jantjie? MR MADASI No, I went out and shouted withdrawal and then I went into the car, the last person to go into the car was the commander of the unit. MR PRIOR When you emerged from the interior that is from inside the tavern and shouted withdrawal, where was Mr Gqomfa? MR MADASI He had moved slightly but he was still around the same position, I shouted out withdrawal as I was leaving. MR PRIOR Was he looking at you when you shouted withdrawal as you were leaving the tavern? MR MADASI MR PRIOR Would you agree that from the doorway that you exited from to where the double doors are, approximately three paces - four paces maximum? MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR I want to suggest to you from what we say on the video yesterday, it would seem - and if necessary evidence will be lead, that the person who shot inside the tavern entered the premises by the door that we see on the left hand side of photograph 1a, turned right into the seating area ...[intervention] MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR That the person who - or persons entered that door, turned right into the seating area of the tavern, proceeded to shoot at the deceased people and the other patrons, moved to the rear of that seating area, turned left towards the bar and then back again down the passage coming towards the door as we see it in photograph 1b, the bottom photograph. MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI What is your point? MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR Now when you left the tavern you drove away towards C Section, is that correct? MR MADASI Site C. MR PRIOR Site C. MR MADASI Correct. MR PRIOR And was there any discussion in the vehicle as to what was going to happen? MR MADASI No, the commander of the unit gave orders that Maxeba and I should abandon the car, I had to make sure and report to him that we had abandoned the car - this is how I followed the order. MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI Maybe the interpretation is not correct. ADV SANDI MR MADASI You do not question orders, this is how I was trained. MR PRIOR What would have happened if you had disobeyed the order given by Mr Gqomfa on that evening? MR MADASI I cannot speculate. A soldier that defies orders is disciplined, we are a disciplined army. MR PRIOR Just tell us simply, what did you think would have happened if you had disobeyed any of the orders you received on that evening? What was in your mind? MR MADASI If I was going to defy the order I would have defied it to comrade Sumiso in the first place, therefore I was not going to defy my commander - head of the unit. MR PRIOR So you were not afraid that any punishment would have been affected or any sanction imposed upon you by the command? CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR MR MADASI Please repeat the question. MR PRIOR Who alighted in Khayelitsha from the stolen motor vehicle, the Blue Record? MR MADASI When we were going there or coming back? MR PRIOR MR MADASI There were six of us in the car, comrade Luyanda, comrade Zola and comrade Xolani Jantjie, comrade Sibeko - I alighted from the car together with the arms, I then left with comrade Maxeba. This was in Site C not in Khayelitsha. MR PRIOR Is Site C not in Khayelitsha? MR MADASI MR PRIOR And how did they leave the vehicle, did they go on foot or was there another vehicle waiting for them? MR MADASI We arrived at a secret place, it was a shack - they alighted from the car and entered the shack. MR PRIOR With the weapons? MR MADASI Correct. MR PRIOR How far did you have to - how far was it to Guguletu where the vehicle was eventually abandoned? How far did you have to travel to do that? MR MADASI Please repeat the question. MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR Is it correct that the vehicle was taken from the owner in Khayelitsha? MR MADASI Yes. MR PRIOR Well if it was your intention to see that he got his vehicle back, why did you not simply drop the vehicle off nearby? Why did you have to travel all the way to Guguletu to abandon the vehicle? MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI We left everything that belonged to the owners there, nobody took anything. MR PRIOR And once you had abandoned the vehicle you then - how did you get back to the secret place at the squatter camp in Khayelitsha? MR MADASI Maxeba went to the people that he knew around there, I travelled through NY1 until I got to the robots, I got public transport towards Mandalay. When you are in Mandalay you are very close to Khayelitsha, that is how I got there and this is why I could go back to the rest of the comrades to give them a report back about our abandoning the car. MR PRIOR That was in the early hours of the morning, is that correct - of the 31st of December? MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR Can you just tell us - are you able to say in which road you abandoned the Opel vehicle, the blue car? MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI I clarified that it is in court that I heard where we abandoned the car, I cannot differentiate the streets in Khayelitsha. MR PRIOR MR MADASI Yes, Guguletu, Guguletu is divided in different sections. MR PRIOR ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] one of his statements. ADV ARENDSE Can he just indicate to the witness which one and when that statement was taken. CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE As you please. CHAIRPERSON MR MADASI MR PRIOR May I proceed Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Proceed. MR PRIOR Did any of your colleagues leave a cap behind in the Opel Record? MR MADASI I heard in court that inside the car not outside the car, the police found caps - inside the car not outside the car. MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI JUDGE WILSON ...[inaudible] MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR You see I must put it to you that Mr Sibaya also says that what he heard was when the men were moving away and just before they entered into the Audi, someone said something about a cap or a hat that had been left behind, referring to the other vehicle that is the dark vehicle. MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI There are classes within APLA, military classes - as a member of the PAC and APLA you were educated about what was going on in the country. MR PRIOR And so you were aware - I should imagine as a group within your unit, of the peace process that had been in place towards the end of 1993? MR MADASI What is the question specifically? MR PRIOR Were you aware that there were negotiations and there was a Transitional Executive Council in place by the end of 1993 because the elections were held in the very next year in April I understand. Were you aware of that? MR MADASI Yes, I was aware Sir, however ...[intervention] MR PRIOR ADV SANDI Can you repeat the reference of that? CHAIRPERSON Anyway, what is the purpose of the question? MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Was he aware of it? MR PRIOR Yes. Maybe I can just put the question directly. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRIOR Were you aware of any moratorium on violence issued by the PAC of which you were a member, during 1992? Did you ever receive such information? MS GOZA Excuse me Mr Chairman, the word: "moratorium" has not been properly interpreted. The word: "moratorium" has not been properly interpreted. MR PRIOR That there was an agreement to stop for a certain period - a cessation of violence presumably to facilitate the peace process of the negotiations, did that information ever come down to you? Did you ever learn of that? MR MADASI INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON MR MADASI 1994 was declared as the "Year of the Bullet and the Ballot" CHAIRPERSON MR MADASI "The Bullet and the Ballot" CHAIRPERSON The Ballot? MR MADASI "The Bullet and the Ballot" INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON MR MADASI This means that on the one hand we vote, on the other we fight. CHAIRPERSON MR MADASI Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI (s.u.o.) ADV SANDI Mr Madasi, I would like to remind you that you are still under oath. MR MADASI That is correct. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR (cont) Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Madasi, one further aspect on the abandonment of the vehicle, I find it strange that you would have travelled all the way from a squatter settlement or a squatter camp as you described it, to a residential are to abandon the vehicle when you could done quite - you could have done that, the abandonment of the vehicle in Khayelitsha at the squatter area. JUDGE WILSON MR PRIOR Mr Chairman yes, that is a possibility. MR MADASI That is correct. MR PRIOR I need to put to you that you seem to have shown more concern for a vehicle an inanimate object, than for innocent civilians, is that correct? MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI That is not so. First of all, if we had other motives about the car we would have killed the people - it showed that we had specific needs and motives. We got the car without shedding blood. CHAIRPERSON MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI ADV SANDI Mr Madasi, are you suggesting that the owner of the vehicle was happy to see you taking his car away? MR MADASI ADV SANDI MR MADASI Correct. MR PRIOR May I refer you to page 35 of the bundle which deals at line 20 onwards, regarding the robbery of the motor vehicle ...[inaudible] MR MADASI I have no document before me. MR PRIOR And then line 31: "It stood some distance from the house and fired a shot into the air" The reference was to a fourth person who had stood in the street and then fired a shot into the air. MR MADASI What is your question? MR PRIOR MR MADASI Our goal was to get the car, that is all. They way things happened - if it were other people they would have shot at the house, I think the Committee should look carefully at this. We went there solely to get the car that we did get at the end. MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI As a person that was there when the car was taken, the story about the house being bombed - under the conditions at the time and the moment then, the situation warranted us to talk in that manner. However our aim was not to damage the house. The matter about the fourth person shooting, they shot when we had already left to make sure that nobody from the house would look and see which direction we were taking. We just shot in the air so that nobody would follow us, if we had intended to kill anybody we would have shot the people at the house. MR PRIOR Was that shot not intended to intimidate them? MR MADASI ADV SANDI MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman, I was just waiting for him to finish, I was going to move onto something else. MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON What did you mean by: "Simply drive away"? MR PRIOR Did you simply drive away or did anything else happen before you left Observatory? MR MADASI We went straight to Site C - we went directly to Site C and some of the comrades alighted, then I left with the man that I mentioned earlier on. MR PRIOR Once you got into the vehicle to flee the scene as it were, was there anymore shooting? MR MADASI Arrived where? MR PRIOR When you left the tavern - got into the vehicle and drove away, was there anymore shooting? MR MADASI MR PRIOR Did you see at what Gqomfa was - your comrade Gqomfa, was firing? MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI There were shots that I heard, from a small gun I think. I think the comrade was responding to those shots. According to his evidence here yesterday, he said that it was somebody from behind that was shooting. MR PRIOR All right. Do you know Bulelani Xuma - on of the implicated persons? MR MADASI Yes, I know Bulelani. MR PRIOR Did you have any dealings with him whilst you were in Cape Town? MR MADASI No. MR PRIOR Did you see him whilst you were in Cape Town, that is before the Heidelberg attack? MR MADASI No, I did not see him. MR PRIOR Mr Theo Mabusela, do you know him? MR MADASI I know Theo, he was a Regional Executive Chairman from the Eastern Cape. MR PRIOR Did you see him in Cape Town whilst you were in Cape Town before the Heidelberg attack? MR MADASI Yes, I saw him. MR PRIOR Had he arranged any accommodation for you? MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR And after the attack, who provided you the accommodation - that is before you left for Umtata presumably or Transkei? MR MADASI MR PRIOR So were you staying at your own home? MR MADASI No, I was not staying at home. MR PRIOR Can you tell us where in Guguletu you were staying at the time? MR MADASI I was staying at Kick, there was a member of the PAC who stayed there - there are shacks there. MR PRIOR Tell me, did you have an operative name other than your name Vuyisile Madasi? MR MADASI Yes, Sir. MR PRIOR What was that? MR MADASI Within the unit I was referred to as Khayaletu. ADV SANDI Was that the only name? MR MADASI No. ADV SANDI What were the other names? INTERPRETER Could the witness repeat the answer please. ADV SANDI MR MADASI Mtsebisi Leonard Nazo of which I made a travel document in the Transkei according to that name. MR PRIOR Were you travelling under that name when you were arrested? MR MADASI Yes, Sir. MR PRIOR And your colleague Mr Zola Mabala, do you know his operative name? MR MADASI He used his own name Zola as I know him now. MR PRIOR And comrade Gqomfa, how did you refer to him before you went into battle? MR MADASI We referred to him as Bruce. MR PRIOR Bruce? MR MADASI Yes, Sir. MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI I know him. MR PRIOR Is he also known as Meyer - M-e-y-e-r? MR MADASI Correct. MR PRIOR Was he not present in the Heidelberg attack? MR MADASI No, Sir. MR PRIOR Are you not sure? MR MADASI MR PRIOR Did you see him in the run up to the attack or shortly after the attack? MR MADASI He was not even in Cape Town, I did not see him before or after the attack - he was not to be part of this mission. MR PRIOR Well, where was he at the time of the Heidelberg attack? MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR Did you know anyone by the name of Mandla or Power? MR MADASI MR PRIOR Refer to paragraph 6 of page 73 - did you know him personally or did you know of him as being in the upper echelons of the command? MR MADASI I knew him as a member of the High Command in APLA. MR PRIOR Do you know whether any report was made to him regarding the Heidelberg attack in particular? MR MADASI MR PRIOR "If so, state particulars of such order or approval" Because you had said in the previous answer: "You had done this on behalf of the APLA High Command" Then the next question was: "If so, state particulars of such order or approval and the date thereof and if known, the name and address of the person or persons who gave such order or approval" And your answer was: "Kill the enemy, liberate AZANIA, let Klapa Plathele" ... [intervention] MR MADASI These forms arrived with the comrade, I filled them with him. MR PRIOR Sorry, which comrade was that? MR MADASI Leklapa. MR PRIOR Did Mr Leklapa Plathele bring you these forms whilst you were in prison? MR MADASI Correct, with a member of the Executive Committee, comrade Kusheka. MR PRIOR So whilst you were in their presence you completed this form, is that so? MR MADASI What do you mean? MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR Did you agree with the reply that he gave? MR MADASI The answer he gave "To kill the enemy and liberate AZANIA" MR PRIOR No, more specifically that he Leklapa Plathele was in fact the person who gave the order to attack Heidelberg. I beg your pardon, the question quite simply is, is that true or not? MR MADASI The fact that he gave the orders - first of all I came to Cape Town given orders by comrade Sumiso, comrade Plathele knew about this that the soldiers that are going to be deployed however I directly got orders from comrade Sumiso. When I was filling these forms in prison I filled them in the presence of Leklapa Plathele. MR PRIOR You see why I ask you that, in paragraph 5 of your submission this morning or the statement which you confirmed in your evidence under oath, paragraph 5 draws a very distinct distinction between the instructions given by Leklapa and those given by Nonuba. Is that correct or is that not correct? MR MADASI MR PRIOR Well, do you have your submission in front of you, the statement that your legal representatives drafted on your behalf and which was read out? MR MADASI No English translation. MR PRIOR You said at paragraph 5 "With regard to the first operation we had received our instructions for Leklapa" "But the Cape Town operations including the Heidelberg Tavern operation" "The Cape Town operation including Heidelberg Tavern, we received our instructions initially from Nonuba and subsequently from Gqomfa who was the commander of our unit" Now that is not the same as the application form, is it? MR MADASI CHAIRPERSON MR MADASI It is the Yellowood Hotel in the Eastern Cape that I took part in. JUDGE WILSON You did what in? MR MADASI That I was involved in. JUDGE WILSON How were you involved? MR MADASI My role - I was there as the commander of the unit. JUDGE WILSON And what did the unit do? MR MADASI To attack oppressors, the oppressors that oppressed the oppressed. JUDGE WILSON Did you attack people and kill people there? MR MADASI JUDGE WILSON When was this? MR MADASI JUDGE WILSON Do you intend to apply for amnesty for it? MR MADASI I would not have included it in the form if I was not intending to ask for amnesty for it, this is why I included it in the form. JUDGE WILSON MR MADASI INTERPRETER I think the witness made a mistake there. JUDGE WILSON Did Leklapa Plathele order you to commit this one, the Yellowood one? Did he approve of it? MR MADASI I would put it that way, even though he did not give me a direct order or he did not say this to me directly. JUDGE WILSON Is that what he might have been writing about in paragraph 11(b)? MR MADASI It could be so but I think that Plathele should elaborate on this point himself. MR PRIOR JUDGE WILSON MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, I agree with that, all I can say is that from my side I was simply briefed with the application which is before the Committee. There is no other detail that we have and the only other detail we obtained was yesterday morning regarding the offences. ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Our understanding is that we were here to deal with the Heidelberg Tavern massacre. When we look at the application form we find that reference is made therein to other matters in respect of which he believes he has applied for amnesty and counsel - the leader of evidence, is also here to deal entirely with the Heidelberg Tavern case. JUDGE WILSON With respect Mr Chairman, I feel very strongly that the credibility of the applicant may well be affected by other matters he has been involved in. I do not think it necessary for the applicant to deal with them here but I do think that the Amnesty Committee should be notified that these files are available. ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR Chairman, I will convey that to the secretary. CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. I want to turn finally to an aspect which has been raised by two of the victims, in particular Mr Palm and Mr Fourie and which was also referred to in a press report from the PAC member of Parliament, one Kallifile - it looks like Cinzana ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON When was that dated? MR PRIOR ADV SANDI What page is this Mr Prior? MR PRIOR As far as you are aware, can you say whether there was any infiltration into APLA especially in the Western Cape and especially in Cape Town at the time or shortly before the Heidelberg attack? MR MADASI MR PRIOR From hearing your evidence and the evidence of Mr Gqomfa, it appears that your activities in Cape Town round about November and December 1993, were conducted in such a manner that very few people knew of the actual involvement, in other words about the actual attack, is that correct? MR MADASI The fact that there were too few people - it is not clear to me, please elaborate. CHAIRPERSON What does that question mean: "Very few people were"? MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON You mean the planning of the attack? MR PRIOR The planning and the execution of the attack. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR Yes. Do you agree with that? MR MADASI CHAIRPERSON MR MADASI CHAIRPERSON That indirectly is the answer. MR PRIOR Yes. CHAIRPERSON That knowledge was confined to a few people. MR PRIOR Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR Yes, thank you. You were arrested on the 4th of January, is that correct - at Elliot? Is that correct, you were arrested at a road block at Elliot? MR MADASI Correct, Sir. MR PRIOR Together with Mr Mabala? MR MADASI Correct, Sir. MR PRIOR Is it correct that the police came straight to you? MR MADASI Correct, Sir. MR PRIOR So would you agree with me that they seemed to know who they were looking for? MR MADASI They identified us according to our clothing, they did not know who we were as such. MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR MR MADASI MR PRIOR And the weapons that you used in the Heidelberg attack, did you ever use them or see them again? MR MADASI I never saw them again. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. Mr Chairman, again the request was made - and I think two of the families, a Mrs Langford wanted to ask one or two questions and a Mrs January wanted to ask a question with permission of the Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR JUDGE WILSON MR PRIOR I understand from my investigator that the reporter writes for the Argus. JUDGE WILSON The Cape Argus? MR PRIOR The Cape Argus Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON MR PRIOR JUDGE WILSON If you could please and you might - if you are going to follow this line ...[intervention] INTERPRETER JUDGE WILSON MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman, that will be followed up. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Langford? ...[inaudible] your full names Mrs Langford? MRS LANGFORD I am Andrea Jeanette Langford. CHAIRPERSON Please proceed with your questions. MRS LANGFORD MR MADASI This lady is asking if I could not see whether these were people that were unarmed, is that the question? MRS LANGFORD You could see yes when you went in, because you went in ...[intervention] MR MADASI MRS LANGFORD MR MADASI MRS LANGFORD I need to know how can one go from one kind of a feeling to another in the same instance, the same happening. I need to know how you can cope with that, how did you feel and how do you feel now? MR MADASI MRS LANGFORD MR MADASI Under the reasons which I have given - yes, it is painful for a life to be lost however under the conditions then that led to my being here today, it was the situation in the country in AZANIA at large. I would appreciate a moment where I could clarify and show that it was the conditions in the country that led to such. I was not forced to do what I did and I did not do it because I did not want to. MRS LANGFORD I would say thank you to that for the moment Mr Madasi. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mrs January? What are your full names Mrs January? MRS JANUARY I am Clarissa January, mother of Michael January one of the survivors. Good afternoon Mr Madasi and the other two applicants. I want to ask of you, in your application for amnesty you are asking the survivors and the next of kin or families for forgiveness but thus far you have shown no remorse whatsoever to give us some sort of comfort - you have shown us nothing. MR MADASI MRS JANUARY Thank you very. MR MADASI I thank you Madam. CHAIRPERSON Mr Arendse, any re-examination of this witness? ADV ARENDSE No further questions Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV ARENDSE JUDGE WILSON You have told us that you were issued with the rifle grenade and were to fire it as a sign of withdrawal at the Heidelberg Tavern. MR MADASI That is correct Sir. JUDGE WILSON Had this happened on any other occasion? MR MADASI What other incident, please elaborate. JUDGE WILSON MR MADASI No. JUDGE WILSON us? MR MADASI JUDGE WILSON Had you been told to do it before is what I want to know? MR MADASI JUDGE WILSON MR MADASI That is correct. JUDGE WILSON MR MADASI Correct, Sir. JUDGE WILSON And where was the blank cartridge in the second magazine? MR MADASI The blank - both magazines had blank cartridges, the first bullet to enter would have been this blank. JUDGE WILSON So you only fired one cartridge out of the second magazine? MR MADASI JUDGE WILSON Did you fire other shots after the blank when you were standing at the doorway? MR MADASI Yes, Sir. I was already leaving at the time when I was firing. JUDGE WILSON Well, where were you - what were you firing at? If you were leaving and going out of the building, what were you firing at? MR MADASI I was shooting any living thing that was there. JUDGE WILSON Yes, but you have told us that you fired an extremely dangerous weapon - a rifle grenade, down the passageway away from you because you were close to the door and you could get out of the door before it exploded, do you remember giving us that evidence? MR MADASI I remember. Sir, let me clarify this for you, that rifle - I shot with the rifle grenade, as I shot there were bullets after I had shot with the rifle grenade, this was when I was shouting withdrawal, it is not that I stood and shot again. JUDGE WILSON MR MADASI JUDGE WILSON MR MADASI That is so Sir. JUDGE WILSON MR MADASI Before the grenade explodes, it takes a number of seconds. When it lands I have time - I know that it would injure me as well, this is why immediately after I launched it I moved back trying to leave. JUDGE WILSON MR MADASI ADV SANDI Mr Madasi, let me put my question to you as follows, as you are sitting there today would you say you have any regrets, do you regret having followed instructions the way you described it this morning? MR MADASI ADV SANDI Sorry, Mr Madasi, I will ask you to ...[intervention] INTERPRETER Mr Sandi, please wait for the interpreter to finish. ADV SANDI I believe the interpreter has finished. Would you say anything went wrong with this operation - very briefly, would you say a mistake happened somehow in this operation at Heidelberg Tavern? MR MADASI ADV SANDI Now let us talk about the time when you were driving from the point where you had taken this car - the Opel Record, approximately how many minutes did it take you to drive from the point where you confiscated this Opel Record to Heidelberg Tavern? MR MADASI ADV SANDI Did you have any conversation in the car? MR MADASI In connection with what? ADV SANDI About anything or what you were about to do at the tavern. MR MADASI ADV SANDI In other words, whilst you were in the vehicle you were not able to get any information about this tavern? MR MADASI ADV SANDI When you got involved in this operation in December 1993, what was you occupation? What were you doing, where you working? MR MADASI I was not studying, I was just a member of AZANYO. ADV SANDI You said you left school after passing standard four, when was this? MR MADASI ADV SANDI How old were you when you left school after passing standard four? MR MADASI I could have been 19. I did not leave school because I chose to but because of my home situation, we had no money at home - that is why I left. INTERPRETER If Advocate Sandi could please wait for the interpreter to finish when he asks his questions. ADV SANDI Have you had any job before, have you worked after leaving school? MR MADASI You mean to work for a White man? ADV SANDI To work for whoever to earn an income. MR MADASI No, I was not working. ADV SANDI CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED