amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-02-10 CAPE TOWN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54651&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/capetown/capetown_2kond1.htm ADV DE JAGER: You are still under oath. MR MOOSA We would like these witnesses to be available and we will consider our oppositions and if necessary, call them as part of the cases for victims. CHAIRPERSON We are going to make an announcement in that regard in any case. Do carry on. MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BOOYENS In fact, those telexes appear at pages now at - I seemed to have missed it, at pages 69 and 70 of Volume 1. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR BOOYENS Thank you Sir. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN Mr du Plessis, it is correct that you and your colleagues - that your deception or the fact that you misled the Harmse Commission, that this was successful? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN Your evidence and the versions that you gave to the Harmse Commission were discussed previously during certain discussions with the involved persons, you were to testify there? MR DU PLESSIS I cannot agree with that. I did not discuss my testimony with anyone else. MR JANSEN You were not involved with any meetings where Mr van Rensburg addressed a number of the other officers about what the tactic was to be? MR DU PLESSIS Most certainly not. MR JANSEN Specifically with regard to the Kondile incident, would you agree that the allegations that Kondile was murdered by the security police, were rejected by Judge Harmse? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN And the reasons for that, will you agree with me, is that a great deal was made about the improbability that a person would burnt to death in a place where forestry activities and sugar cane plantations took place? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN A great deal was also made about the improbability that somebody was given a sleeping drug in order to facilitate these persons - allow these persons to shoot him, those who wanted to kill him. MR DU PLESSIS I cannot recall the detail anymore. MR JANSEN You will accept if I put it to you? MR DU PLESSIS I will accept it as such. MR JANSEN A great deal was also made in the Harmse Commission in general about a scarcity job cards - who was where, based on the job cards. MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN It can be accepted generally that you used your job cards to hide where you actually were. MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN Why - for the purpose of your applications in this matter, why was it necessary to get together and to discuss things in Pretoria? MR DU PLESSIS In the first place there was doubt amongst many of us - it was not only the people from the Eastern Cape who got together, as to whether we should apply and Colonel Erasmus played a big role. MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I am. MR JANSEN Firstly, that Kondile or that he saw Kondile alive on the 13th of September and that he was murdered at the end of October, possibly even the first week in November. MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN And you will agree that the only deduction that one can make or inference is - forget about the Kondile matter, that if a person is detained in "kommunikado", then there is one or other sinister reason for that which has something to do with the torture of such a person. MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN Can you think of any motive which Mr Coetzee could have had in 1989 and before the Harmse Commission, to lie about such matters such as the date on which Mr Kondile was killed and the reasons for his murder? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS But you are stating it as if he did have a specific date. MR JANSEN Yes, but you will agree that he recalled or linked a very specific incident with seeing Kondile and that was the stealing of an Audi vehicle. And you will accept that the theft of that Audi vehicle which belonged to a person from a trade union, that that theft was accepted even in the Harmse Commission, as that is happened on the 13th of September? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN You will also accept that Mr Coetzee realised very well in 1990, that he was facing a great number of denials, will you accept that? MR DU PLESSIS Yes. MR JANSEN That he was up against people who were regarded by the public as honourable people? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN That he was facing a legal system which would most probably accept that the security police were guilty of murder? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN What on earth would motivate such a person to lie about something which would just bring him into more trouble, can you think of anything? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN ADV DE JAGER Can it not be that you are making a mistake as to when he was released? MR DU PLESSIS Well, I have documentation which proves when he was released and that is a telex from head office that he had to be released on the 10th. ADV DE JAGER But it has already been put to you previously that some of the documents could have been falsified in order to fit in with the pattern. MR DU PLESSIS JUDGE PILLAY You have acknowledge that he was not released on that day, he was technically released but he was still detained? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, detained because from there on he drove with me to Bloemfontein and from there to Komatiepoort. JUDGE PILLAY Then how can we depend on that document? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN Do I understand you correctly if you say that although we can accept that Kondile was not released on the 10th of August, that head office thought that he was released? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN Yes, we know the version, but head office - and you needed their authorisation for that? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS Yes, you could say that. MR JANSEN Because cruel senseless torture - would you agree with me, would possibly not qualify for something which is politically relevant? MR DU PLESSIS I do not want to debate that, one is here to speak the truth and if one has done something one is to say so whether one is going to be given amnesty or not. MR JANSEN Which desk did you man at the Port Elizabeth Branch? MR DU PLESSIS I was in control of black affairs and investigations. MR JANSEN Black affairs and investigations? What did you have to do regarding investigations? MR DU PLESSIS That was all political observations and investigations. MR JANSEN So you were very closely involved in the charging of offences which were of a political nature? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN So you were also as a result, involved in the investigation of the bomb attacks which took place in Port Elizabeth during that time? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I was the co-ordinator. MR JANSEN You could perhaps just go to your application, it starts on page 14. When you compiled this application, how did you refresh your memory regarding such specific dates such as 10 July, 24 July etc? MR DU PLESSIS I have an idea that this is documentation or dates which we obtained from other documentation amongst one another. MR JANSEN How did you remember the name of Roy Otto? MR DU PLESSIS I could still - the name rang a bell. MR JANSEN You met this person once 17 or sorry, 15 years previously and you remember the name? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN So someone gave you the name? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, we spoke about it. MR JANSEN Who gave you the name? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN What did Mr Otto look like? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN If you look at the second paragraph of your description of the Kondile incident, why was Kondile transferred from Bloemfontein to the Eastern Cape? MR DU PLESSIS At our request. MR JANSEN To find out what from him? MR DU PLESSIS At that stage it was policy that if a person came from Port Elizabeth and went to another area - except if he had committed a crime in another section, then the region which he left did the investigation as was the case in his case. MR JANSEN So everyone - it seemed, wanted Kondile at that stage? Please go to page 69 of the document, can you just explain to the Commission what document this is? MR DU PLESSIS This is an encrypted message sent from Port Elizabeth to head office with a copy for Bloemfontein. MR DU PLESSIS MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN So, you also asked Mr Kondile about these bomb attacks as to who was involved? MR DU PLESSIS I asked him about many things and I believe amongst others, about this as well, yes. MR JANSEN Did the interrogation of Mr Kondile lead to the arrest of a single person who was responsible for bomb attacks? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN Perhaps you can just verify this, you looked a the news reports? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, the dates are just not clear to me. MR JANSEN ADV DE JAGER UNKNOWN ...[inaudible} INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Well now, let there be some clarity on what constitutes Volume 4. MR JANSEN Sorry Mr Chairman, Volume 4 is a bundle consisting of 44 pages of newspaper clippings dating from the period 1981 and more specifically August and September. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Very well, from now on that will be referred to as Volume 4. MR JANSEN As it pleases you Mr Chairman. You concede that the dates which are indicated, that one could accept them as correct? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I believe so. MR JANSEN It is also mentioned specifically by General Erasmus in his background with regards to this bomb attack at the Constantia Centre? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN Is it pure coincidence that Kondile two days after the Constantia bomb, that he was released then? MR DU PLESSIS That is pure coincidence, yes. MR JANSEN Pure coincidence? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN The person who possibly had information regarding people who were busy injuring innocent women and children and you release him two days after that? MR DU PLESSIS He knew nothing about that bomb attack. He said who was responsible, who could have been responsible but further he could not assist us. MR JANSEN He could possibly have told you who had planted the bomb? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, he told us who had planted it before the time. MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS At a later stage James blew himself up at the administration offices. And I can say further that with the arrests of other terrorists, this information was confirmed. ADV GCABASHE ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Just a point on clarity, you are saying you got this information from Kondile after these bombings - as to who did it, after the bombings? MR DU PLESSIS ADV GCABASHE Were you able to ask him about these specific ones after they had occurred? MR DU PLESSIS No, I did not ask him. JUDGE PILLAY Why not? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN Now we come to the recruitment of Kondile as an informer. Would you conceded that the recruitment of informers was a specialised task? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN Part of the process was the so-called debriefing? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN Debriefing is a very long process, usually it takes place where various specialists on various fields ask question in order to realise or to find out whether this person really is who he says he is. MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN And his understanding thereof was that that this was a specialised department. MR DU PLESSIS Well, his opinion is his opinion. I do not know how many informers or agents he dealt with, perhaps he can tell us. MR JANSEN At least he had training in that so he understood the theory. MR DU PLESSIS That depends when he had the training. MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER Where did you learn to deal with informers? MR DU PLESSIS Security courses and follow-up courses. MR JANSEN When do you say - when was this debriefing done by the experts or specialists? MR DU PLESSIS I cannot recall the year but they brought in psychologists later to do psychometric testing etc. MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS In that case we did it ourselves. MR JANSEN Was that function ever taken over by experts? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN Would you also agree with me that one of the biggest dangers with the recruiting of an informer, is that such a person can actually be a double agent or become a double agent? MR DU PLESSIS That is so. MR JANSEN So any person who recruits an informer would at all times be acutely aware of that fact? MR DU PLESSIS Yes. MR JANSEN MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN Would you at least accept that someone such as Kondile or any person working for the ANC or who worked for the ANC at least knew that at any time he could fall into the hands of the South African Police, whether it be as a result of arrests within the country or abduction from a neighbouring state, correct? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN So you should surely have thought that while you interrogated Kondile, that he was possibly busy with counter-interrogation techniques? MR DU PLESSIS I did not think of that because the way in which he answered his questions and told me what had happened did not make me suspicious in the first place, and I could also test his information. MR JANSEN It did not make you suspicious that when he gave you names about people in the Transkei, that you arrived there and these people escaped the arrest? MR DU PLESSIS No, because we knew exactly what had happened, one of the intelligence people from the Transkei warned them. MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN MR JANSEN In other words, such an informer would be told: "Place your information in such a place and be at a certain place at a certain time because a person with a newspaper and dark glasses will there", is that the type of spy stories? MR DU PLESSIS No, these type of spy stories do not work, we based our activities on ordinary principles. MR JANSEN And you stuck to the basic principles and probably it did not work? MR DU PLESSIS Some of it worked, some not. MR JANSEN Where according to you, would Kondile work, in Transkei or in Lesotho? MR DU PLESSIS Worked as? MR JANSEN As your informer. MR DU PLESSIS No, he would have worked in Lesotho but the information vacuum was in Transkei. The information Transkei was amongst others in Transkei and from Lesotho to the Eastern Cape, the Western Cape, Transkei etc. MR JANSEN But you had a well established structure in Lesotho? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN Where would Kondile provide you with Transkei information? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN So it was not specifically a Transkei vacuum, it was a vacuum regarding infiltrations from Lesotho? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct, but in the Transkei we had almost no informers. CHAIRPERSON When you talk about infiltrations, are you talking about infiltrations from Lesotho or into Lesotho? MR DU PLESSIS From Lesotho Your Honour. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR JANSEN "The danger surrounding operations and especially the possible exposure of informers flow from this" What operations are you referring to? MR DU PLESSIS Information operations. CHAIRPERSON Just let me clear, is that Volume 3? MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON MR JANSEN Volume 1. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS Yes, he was - he knew about all the information operations. MR JANSEN He has knowledge about the fact that he was an informer? MR DU PLESSIS And who the principle agent was. MR JANSEN And who the principle agent was. And what is the following step then? MR DU PLESSIS The following was that if he had certain information, they identified the principle agent and all his other associates were identified and all the other handlers were identified. MR JANSEN: In other words, operations should be seen as information operations. MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN I want to put it you, where you discuss your political motive, and I quote from the same paragraph "The protection and maintenance of the government and constitutional dispensation be hampered and the community as a result of that and the accompanying danger and intimidation, could lose their trust in the government" MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON I agree with that. MR JANSEN No, I accept that Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR JANSEN Mr du Plessis, do you have any reason why Mr Coetzee was contacted for the purposes of this operation? MR DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER MR JANSEN Sorry. ADV DE JAGER It is in one of the statements and I can refer you to that, and he said that he said: "We know how to do these things". MR JANSEN Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER So, the initiative had come from his side. MR JANSEN ADV DE JAGER Your client says himself that he took the initiative in this regard. MR JANSEN No, I accept that. ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON Well at least you see, he says that they also took the initiative because they wanted Dirk Coetzee. ADV DE JAGER ...[inaudible] MR JANSEN Were you aware of a letter coming from headquarters concerning Vlakplaas Division C1 that was a newly established structure? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I can remember that letter. MR JANSEN And it was that division which would co-operate with the various divisional structures? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN Would you accept that that letter was dated the 11th of September? MR DU PLESSIS I accept that. ADV DE JAGER Is it the 11th of September 1981? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN There were various incidents before then but regarding highly organised actions, it became operational the end of August. MR DU PLESSIS In the last instance the commanding officer was in charge of the division and when those people then came there they had to work under the command of the people in the region. This perhaps - this documentation was dispatched at a later date because of problems. MR JANSEN It would be fair ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR JANSEN Yes. CHAIRPERSON And for example, large parts of paragraph 3 and paragraph 4 - 3(a) and 3(a)1 make no sense at all, they might as well not have been there. MR JANSEN Yes. Mr Chairman, unfortunately - I remember the history of this copy, is that it came from the Harmse Commission documents and the ones - the original copies if I may call it that, from which these copies were made, was in a terrible state. CHAIRPERSON All right, thank you very much. MR JANSEN Thank you Mr Chairman. MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN But at least you would agree that Mr Coetzee was supposed to have contacted or informed Colonel Flemington, perhaps not in detail but you were in his area, you were busy with something covert in his area. MR DU PLESSIS One would expect that, yes. MR JANSEN And even worse, what is your opinion of when somebody came into your area without informing you, use a member of his staff without telling him? MR DU PLESSIS I would react on that. MR JANSEN You would have been absolutely unhappy? MR DU PLESSIS Yes. MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN Did you know anything about the theft of this Audi on the 13th of September? MR DU PLESSIS No. MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS As far as I can remember, yes. MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR JANSEN And you drove to Barbeton. MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN If you look at the cell registers 187 - Volume 2, page 187. Reference has already been made to that, entry 630. Can one accept that 630 is saying that Kondile is being released? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS That is correct as far as I can remember. MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN In other words you never slept over, you drove right through the 10th and the 11th and then you arrived in Komatiepoort on the 11th? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS We slept by the road, one slept and the other one remained awake. We did not sleep in a police station or a hotel, we only rested along the road in the car. MR JANSEN Mr Coetzee says that his impression was that you slept over in Ermelo. MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN Would you agree that Mr van Rensburg - a year before that, that he was the commanding officer in Ermelo? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN They were stationed at Ermelo. MR DU PLESSIS It was probable that they were stationed there. MR JANSEN You mentioned - which name did you refer to? MR DU PLESSIS I met Rorich at headquarters and heard that he was stationed at Ermelo. MR JANSEN In all honesty I want to put it to you that I want to argue that it is probable that you slept over that night and it could have been Ermelo. MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN Where did you sleep over? MR DU PLESSIS We slept along the national road at certain rest areas. If you regard that as sleeping over, then we did. MR JANSEN ADV DE JAGER MR DU PLESSIS ...[inaudible] MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS As far as I know that was the plan. MR JANSEN In other words it can be reconciled with a plan to make Kondile disappear. MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR JANSEN Where is this story then - what it is about, that it was initially your plan to shoot him and then to leave him there on the border? MR DU PLESSIS This was a suggestion from Colonel van Rensburg because his argument was that there was no co-operation between Mozambique and South Africa and nothing would happen afterwards. MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS But I think when Colonel van Rensburg testifies he will be able to explain the position. ADV GCABASHE MR DU PLESSIS At Komatiepoort we decided that. ADV GCABASHE After you had killed Sizwe Kondile? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS It was mentioned to me, yes. MR JANSEN Do you want to have a look at those documents? - I want to ask you whether you would like to accept what is written here. ADV DE JAGER MR JANSEN Mr Chairman ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] entitled to question him on the document in any case. MR JANSEN In any case it will be my submission that from the contents of this document, it is definitely not falsified but I will concede that at the end of the day these are things which would have to be taken into consideration on both accounts. But please allow me to ask the question. MR JANSEN Mr du Plessis, you recognise this as a leave form - application for leave? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER Do we have a copy of this form? MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Before I give it a reference number, is there anything material that turns on this document? Do you want to hand it in as an exhibit? MR JANSEN Yes, provisionally, certainly Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Is there anything material that turns on it? MR JANSEN Yes. CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR JANSEN ADV DE JAGER Volume 4 is a ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER MR JANSEN MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR JANSEN Yes. Mr Chairman, I concede that absolutely. My instructions are that notice of these documents were given to all the parties. It was placed in possession of the TRC although not within the 30 days, within the last 10 or 10 days before the hearing, specifically notifying the parties that an application will be made in terms of the pre-trial minute that use is subject to the permission by the Commission. ADV DE JAGER MR JANSEN ADV DE JAGER MR JANSEN ADV DE JAGER MR JANSEN No, but reference is made in that correspondence to both documents. CHAIRPERSON Very well, without wasting too much time ...[intervention] MR JANSEN Sorry, Mr Chairman, I understand from my instructions in fact, that this document was a document that was never in our possession, this document was obtained from the TRC. The leave form was in our possession, not this document. CHAIRPERSON MR JANSEN And the computer print-out. CHAIRPERSON And the computer print-out. Well now, Mr Visser, do you now have copies of these documents? MR VISSER No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Well now, can you - is there any other aspect of the matter that you can deal with in the meanwhile while copies are being made? MR JANSEN I can hand them copies in the meantime Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Well, please do. Now, this computer print-out will go in as Exhibit B. MR JANSEN And the leave form as C. CHAIRPERSON And the leave form as C. MR JANSEN Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes please? MR JANSEN Mr du Plessis, would you accept that that application for leave form, that from that it seems as though Otto in 1981 from the 6th of July till the 31st of July was on ordinary leave? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN For 26 days. Then, if you skip one line, from the 3rd of August to the 9th of August he was on sick leave for seven days. MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN And from the 10th of August to the 14th of August, for five days on ordinary leave. MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN It is improbable that he was part of the operation then? MR DU PLESSIS The other side is also true, it could have been the tactics of Dirk to put Roy on leave so that he could have worked with him so the other side can also be true. MR JANSEN But you would agree that Mr Coetzee did not know about this incident a month before. MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN But according to the documents it was a month before. MR DU PLESSIS Here it says from the 10th he was on ordinary leave. MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS Yes. MR JANSEN In any case, Mr Coetzee denies that Otto was there. And you are aware of his version that the person who pulled the trigger was a tall person with light hair - fair hair and he was slender. MR DU PLESSIS I cannot agree with that. MR JANSEN But you would at least concede that Otto does not fit that description? MR DU PLESSIS No, definitely not. JUDGE PILLAY Mr du Plessis, can you remember what Mr Otto looked like? MR DU PLESSIS I have seen his photo, yes. JUDGE PILLAY Is it the same person or not? MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS MR JANSEN Are you aware of anyone - unfortunately I do not have access to your application, but are you aware of any person in your application on a whole who you have implicated and who has not applied for amnesty? MR DU PLESSIS I do not believe so. MR JANSEN MR DU PLESSIS And I can just say further that what I testified with regard to Kondile, were the facts that I can remember and things that definitely happened, there was nothing further. If we go and look for documentation we will see that he was not detained anywhere else - I did not have such a place. If we had such a places that would have worked well we could not have detained him for a further month, I cannot see what the purpose would have been, I really cannot. MR JANSEN As it pleases Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Roux, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness? MR ROUX CHAIRPERSON Yes, please. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROUX Mr du Plessis, if I understand you correctly, you wanted Kondile either to go to Transkei or Lesotho as an informer? MR DU PLESSIS To Lesotho. MR ROUX Would you agree that there was always a possibility if he returned to Lesotho the people would mistrust him there? MR DU PLESSIS There was that possibility, yes. MR ROUX And you believed that he had turned and that he was on your side? MR DU PLESSIS Correct. MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS No. MR ROUX Will you not agree with me that it could have been a way in which to assure that if he went back to Lesotho they would have regarded him as a trustworthy man? MR DU PLESSIS Here the agreement was that we would not lie to one another, we would speak the truth. He had suggestions as to how he was going to re-infiltrate Lesotho, he had suggestions as to how it should be dealt with and now he came and made this known. I would have expected that he would have told me and I would have arranged this for him. MR ROUX How did you know that he did not want to show you that note as a possible way of doing this? MR DU PLESSIS Then he would have shown this afterwards. I did not take the note from him. MR ROUX How long did you take to wait until he was to discuss it with you? MR DU PLESSIS I placed him under observation in the cells and he never said it to me so I was satisfied. ADV GCABASHE Mr du Plessis, just as a matter of interest, was this note written in English or Afrikaans? MR DU PLESSIS It was written in English. MR ROUX Would you agree that according to your own version, he did not turn, that he was still on the side of the ANC? MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX And if someone is on the side of the ANC as he was then the conveying of the information to the principle agent, that it would have been of great value to the ANC? MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX And will you agree that he could have written anything on that note that he wanted to? MR DU PLESSIS He could, yes. MR ROUX And can you think of any reason why he would not have given or rather written important information on the note than merely the fact that he has been recruited? MR DU PLESSIS I can just speculate as you can as to why he did not do that. MR ROUX But will you agree that people expected him to rather have written that? MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX Why not? MR DU PLESSIS You cannot think for me what I would like to write in a note, he had a reason for writing that. MR ROUX Would you agree that it would have had a better effect or a better advantage to the ANC, had he written that information on the note? MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS He would have had to write quite a long letter. CHAIRPERSON MR ROUX As it pleases you Mr Chairman. You thought that you had turned him as a person for your side, am I correct? MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX And you also said that you were proud of the fact that you had succeeded. MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX So, you regarded this as an achievement? MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX Did you think that he had turned to such an extent that he was supporting the cause that you supported? MR DU PLESSIS I would not say that he supported the cause that I supported but he was prepared to give me the information I required. MR ROUX Why did you think that he would give you the information? MR DU PLESSIS Well, his body language, the discussions between us, one gets to know these people later. We did not only deal with one informer, we dealt with many. MR ROUX What I actually is, why did you think, what is the reason why he would give you this information? MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX You offered no rewards? MR DU PLESSIS I did, yes, I did offer large amounts of money at that stage. MR ROUX Why is this the first time that the Commission is hearing about this? MR DU PLESSIS Nobody asked. Informers do get rewards, any system works like this. You do not work for free either, nor did he. MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS I do not know. MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS No, never to Humansdorp as far as I know. MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS The transfer from? MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX So, you know Mr Ginotry Danster? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I know him, he worked under me. MR ROUX Where did he actually work? MR DU PLESSIS Port Elizabeth. MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS No. MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS I had him come there to guard Kondile. MR ROUX And this is before the note was found? MR DU PLESSIS It was just afterwards. MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX As concerns the guarding that Danster had to do, did you give him specific instructions? MR DU PLESSIS I believe that I did, I cannot remember but I think I told Sergeant Raath - and I accept that he was also there, that they had to see that the person did not leave the place and that nobody saw him and that he was not to escape. MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS I cannot recall the details anymore. MR ROUX Did you ever supervise the guarding or see that they were doing the work correctly? MR DU PLESSIS I did visit them, yes. I interrogated him there or had discussions with him while he was there as well. MR ROUX With who was that? MR DU PLESSIS With Mr Kondile. MR ROUX And for how long was he involved in the guarding? MR DU PLESSIS I must speculate if I say that approximately two weeks, perhaps a bit more, it could even be less. MR ROUX The instructions that you gave to Mr Kondile, it was not a normal instruction, it was a special instruction, would you agree with that? MR DU PLESSIS To Mr Kondile? MR ROUX Indirectly through Mr Raath. ADV DE JAGER I think you mean Mr Danster. MR ROUX Thanks Mr de Jager. Yes, the instruction given to Kondile was not the general instruction, it was a specific one, that nobody came in and out? MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX Danster, yes. MR DU PLESSIS ADV GCABASHE MR DU PLESSIS Afterwards. MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX If Mr Danster guarded Kondile, was he authorised to speak to him regarding social matters or was he only allowed to speak to him formally? MR DU PLESSIS He could talk to him about anything as long as he did not interrogate him because he did not which line of interrogation I had been following. MR ROUX So, was it not possible at all that he could have interrogated him as a result of that reason? MR DU PLESSIS No, he could talk to him but the fact regarding the interrogation he was to leave alone because he had no knowledge. MR ROUX Why did you say earlier that it was possible that Danster could have interrogated him? MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX When you were asked earlier as to whether Danster could have interrogated him, did you think this was social questioning or not directed at anything to the credit of the security police? MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Had Danster been entrusted with interrogating anybody else apart from Kondile? MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX "I gave an amount of R85 to him - this will become clear out of a copy of the prescription book here attached" MR DU PLESSIS Please read further. MR ROUX Is that correct? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, it is correct. MR ROUX Are those the large amounts that you spoke about? MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX What do you mean as apparent? MR DU PLESSIS We said that he had a date which was the 3rd of the month by which he had to report back. I do not believe that one could get information as cheaply as that. MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX Can you think of any reason why you or any of the other people would have made this known to other persons such as Danster? MR DU PLESSIS No, I cannot think of any reason. MR ROUX Would you agree that it would be a stupid thing to do? MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX I then put it to you that I find it pure coincidence that if Danster testifies in his statement that the alleged murder took place near Komatiepoort, then he is just guessing. MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX Can you just tell the Commission where Mr Kondile was shot on his body. MR DU PLESSIS I do not know. MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS I did not look. CHAIRPERSON MR ROUX INTERPRETER JUDGE PILLAY MR DU PLESSIS Yes. JUDGE PILLAY And would he or could he have employed - if I may describe as the tools of trade, assaults on people he was interrogating? MR DU PLESSIS Are you now referring to other persons? JUDGE PILLAY Yes. MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX Earlier on you said and testified that Kondile was interrogated by other members of the personnel as well. MR DU PLESSIS I spoke pertinently about East London. MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS No, I cannot remember. MR ROUX Is it not possible that Danster could have been involved? MR DU PLESSIS No, I cannot see why because if the people from East London needed an interpreter, they did not need one because Kondile could speak English very fluently. So they did not need an interpreter, I cannot see why they would have brought anyone else and he would not have been the interpreter. MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS Yes, but in ways which I can assure you did not occur. ADV DE JAGER MR DU PLESSIS No, he could have been but I want to tell you that I cannot think how it could have been possible because at that stage - according to my knowledge or what I can recall, he was never involved in that interrogation. ADV DE JAGER Yes, but he was guarding the man, he was sitting there, he had to ensure that nobody got to him. Did he leave the room when the people from East London came or was he present? MR DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER MR DU PLESSIS ADV GCABASHE MR DU PLESSIS ADV GCABASHE And this was after the note was found? MR DU PLESSIS No, I never said that. ADV GCABASHE This is precisely why I asked the question. So you are saying he was not assaulted after the note was found, never assaulted after the note was found. MR DU PLESSIS Not that I know of. CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX How did you go about arranging for him to placed in the single quarters? MR DU PLESSIS I just asked the - asked them for the key. MR ROUX Did this happen immediately? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, as far as I know. MR ROUX Who took him from the cells to the single quarters? MR DU PLESSIS At that stage the keys were in my possession so I believe that I took him. MR ROUX You cannot say for sure? MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX Did you ever consider the possibility that he could have written an earlier note? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, but if one looked at that note in the style that it was written, it seemed as though it was the first one. MR ROUX So from the style of the note you got sufficient security not to investigate the possibility of an earlier note? MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX Why did you have to take the chance? MR DU PLESSIS I could not do anything else. MR ROUX Could you not have questioned him and tried to find out whether he had written an earlier note? MR DU PLESSIS And you believe that he would have told me that? CHAIRPERSON MR ROUX During the time before Mr Danster became involved with Kondile, various other people were involved with Kondile, it was you, Mr Raath and other members of the staff who also interrogated him. MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX What do you mean he was not there? MR DU PLESSIS He was not there. MR ROUX Then, if he testifies that before the note was found there were assaults and in his submissions he refers to: "The Spook" an torture ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Mr Roux, does Danster know when the note was found? Is that his evidence that he knows when the note was found? MR ROUX According to his evidence no note was found. ADV DE JAGER MR ROUX I concede, thank you for your assistance. According to your evidence, before this note was found Danster is telling lies if he said there were assaults before the note was found. MR DU PLESSIS JUDGE PILLAY Mr du Plessis, you are saying he was assaulted before the note was found. MR DU PLESSIS Assaulted by myself. JUDGE PILLAY What Mr Roux is trying to establish is, if there were there any assaults it could only be before the note was found. MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. JUDGE PILLAY And the statement is, then is Danster telling lies when he says that he was involved in all these other matters? MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX I have no further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROUX CHAIRPERSON We will take a short adjournment at this stage. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR ROUX CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROUX Thank you Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER Is it Volume 2? MR ROUX CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. MR ROUX Do you have it Mr du Plessis? MR DU PLESSIS I have page 186. MR ROUX 624, it says - the date is important, 10.8.81 and it says "...[illegible] Kondile placed in cells on 14.11 by somebody" Is that what you see there? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX If I understand your evidence correctly, after the note had been found he was kept in single quarters and not in the cells. MR DU PLESSIS Precisely yes, but during that morning he could have been placed back in those cells before being released. MR ROUX Why would he have been placed in the cells again? MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX How do you release a person who has not been in the cells? The single quarters, are they not an acceptable place for detaining prisoners? MR DU PLESSIS MR ROUX MR DU PLESSIS I did say what my contribution as in this regard. MR ROUX He will testify that you were involved in the assault as described by him in his statement. He will also give evidence that you were also involved in the torture and you gave instructions - written instructions to the people who did this torture, to determine what questions had to be asked and how they had to torture him. MR DU PLESSIS I think that is ridiculous. MR ROUX Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROUX CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens, any re-examination? MR BOOYENS JUDGE PILLAY Mr du Plessis tell me, before the note was found, did Mr Kondile know what the nature of his tasks in Lesotho would be? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I informed him in detail. JUDGE PILLAY In other words he knew that he was going back to Lesotho? MR DU PLESSIS JUDGE PILLAY And he would be in contact with the ANC again? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. JUDGE PILLAY And despite that he wrote notes? MR DU PLESSIS Yes. JUDGE PILLAY The other thing I want to establish, how did it happen that you disclosed the identity of your main informer? MR DU PLESSIS JUDGE PILLAY That information, was it provided to him to convince him to become an informer or did he request that information from you? MR DU PLESSIS The principle agent - the intelligence regarding the principle agent was concerned about the liaison of him as an informer that had to do with the infiltration and how we wanted it to happen. JUDGE PILLAY As I understand your version now is, in the end the roles were reversed, he got information from you. MR DU PLESSIS I would say visa versa, from both sides. JUDGE PILLAY How did you feel when you found out that he had obtained this information? this information? MR DU PLESSIS I did not feel badly about the information he had obtained because I provided it. JUDGE PILLAY How do you feel about the fact that he obtained this information? MR DU PLESSIS JUDGE PILLAY As I understand it the roles were reversed, you had to obtain information from him and in the end he obtained from you, when you found this out - that he had betrayed you, how did you feel about that? MR DU PLESSIS I felt very bad. JUDGE PILLAY Were you angry? MR DU PLESSIS JUDGE PILLAY Thank you. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, arising from the questions your brother asked at this stage, perhaps - it seems to me there may still be some uncertainty, may I perhaps just ask a few questions in re-examination in this regard? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct, internal and foreign. MR BOOYENS And then you train him as an informer and he indicates that he would act as an informer. MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR BOOYENS The purpose of this is, after he had indicated that he would be an informer you had to use him and your purpose is to send him back to Lesotho. The information which he had to gather there as an informer, where does this principle agent come into this whole process? MR DU PLESSIS The information which he would gather would come via the principle agent to me. I would also give the principle agent the necessary instructions to brief Kondile and also to debrief him based on what I what I require. MR BOOYENS The reason therefore why the name of the principle agent was provided to him was that he had to know whom to report to. MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. ADV GCABASHE If I may ask Mr du Plessis, does this mean that at that stage when you had told him who the principle agent was, his release to Lesotho as somebody who then worked for you was imminent? MR DU PLESSIS ADV GCABASHE And imminent being in a few days, in a week? MR DU PLESSIS ADV GCABASHE But at this stage he was still in detention yes? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. ADV GCABASHE He had no visitors except yourself, Raath and Danster who guarded him? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. ADV GCABASHE And in no way was he a free agent at all, he had no other visitors? MR DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER ADV DE JAGER When he was detained in the single quarters it was only Danster and Raath who was responsible for him there and then also I. ADV GCABASHE At what stage would Mr van Rensburg have had the opportunity to visit him? MR DU PLESSIS At any time if he wanted to. ADV GCABASHE You would not necessarily know about this? MR DU PLESSIS No, I would not know about it but practice taught me that if Mr van Rensburg had visited him he would have told me. If he came to the police station and he wanted to visit him he was free to do so. Any police officer is justified to visit a detainee at any time. ADV GCABASHE But you have no clue as to who may or may not have gone? MR DU PLESSIS No, the documentation is not available now. If an officer had visited him or any other person, they made entries in that specific file that they had paid him visits. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr du Plessis. WITNESS EXCUSED MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, can we just arrange things, I want to call Mr van Rensburg next. CHAIRPERSON Yes.