amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS CAPE TOWN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54653&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/capetown/capetown_2ndgug1.htm TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION AMNESTY HEARINGS DATE: 03 FEBRUARY 1998 HELD AT: CAPE TOWN NAME W R BELLINGAN CASE NO AM5283/97 NAME T J MBELO CASE NO AM3785/96 DAY: 1 ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON: INTERPRETER: ADV J MOSES: I beg your pardon. I was told that the mike was not on. My Lord, members of the Committee, we have heard, as I have informed you in chambers of problems with regard to the conducting of proper consultations in this matter. Because of practical and logistical problems my client has only arrived yesterday and last night was the only time that we could really consult meaningfully in relation to this matter. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV J MOSES: If I may proceed, Chairperson, my Lord, members of the Committee. As I have already indicated, myself and Ms P Berlin will be assisting Mr Mbane in reading his evidence to this Committee and before this Committee. The evidence, as you all know, relates and as we were made to understand, relates to the incident commonly referred to as the Guguletu 7. My Lords, Chairperson, we propose that Ms Berlin will lead the introductory evidence of Mr Mbane which I will refer to as the first section of his evidence, and I will thereafter, with your permission, take over to lead the read the rest of his evidence. CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moses, I am told when you first introduced yourself, your microphone was not on. Will you please re-introduce yourself, for the sake of the record? ADV J MOSES: As it pleases the Committee. My name is Advocate Joey Moses and I am a member of the Cape Bar. I have been asked to appear on behalf of - assist Mr Mbane in leading and giving his testimony to this Committee in the application, or the amnesty application of Wilhelm Riaan Bellingan and Tapelo Johannes Mbelo. If that suffice, my Lord, members of the Committee, and before my client would be asked to administer the oath, there is just one preliminary issue which I would like to deal with, with the permission of the Chairperson and members of the Committee. CHAIRPERSON: MR BOOYENS: Kobus Booyens, instructed by Francois van der Merwe for the Applicant, Mr Bellingan, Mr Chairman. MR P WILLIAMS: Peter Williams of the firm E Moosa, Wagley & Petersen, acting on behalf of the second applicant in this matter. MR S HUGO: Schalk Hugo, of the firm Solomon, Nicholson, Rhyno & Verster, and I am acting on behalf of the witness, Eugene de Kock. CHAIRPERSON: Is there a second Mr Williams? MR B WILLIAMS: Thank you your Lordship. Brent Williams, Y. Ebrahim & Company, we act on behalf of the families of the Guguletu 7. Thank you. MS R PATEL: R. Patel, leader of evidence for the Amnesty Committee. ADV J MOSES: If I may then proceed, Chairperson. As I have indicated there is a preliminary issue with which I would like to deal with your permission. I have taken the liberty of preparing a very brief summary of the main points which I would like to make before Mr Mbane is requested to take the oath, and with your leave, may I ask to hand this to the members of the Committee, as well as to my colleagues. If I may, Chairperson, these submissions are, or were, prepared on the basis or on the premise that the members of the Committee as well as my learned colleagues are indeed in possession of a statement which was prepared and which was apparently taken from Mr Mbane by the investigating unit of the Commission, which statement I am informed and instructed is indeed in the possession of the members of the Committee and the various legal representatives. CHAIRPERSON: ADV J MOSES: That is indeed so my Lord, members of the Committee, and that is why, before we proceed, I needed to get clarity whether the Committee members as well as the legal representatives have indeed been furnished with a true copy of the actual affidavit of Mr Mbane, or the actual statement of Mr Mbane. And I have to apologise for the confusion, but I was also confused when I was furnished with these different affidavits and that is why I need to correct that before we proceed with these proceedings. MS KHAMPEPE: Which one are you going to use then, Mr Moses? ADV J MOSES: The one which I have in my possession, it starts with "Statement sworn under oath" and starts with paragraph 1 up to and including paragraph 59. JUDGE MILLER: ADV J MOSES: That is indeed so, my Lord, I have been instructed that the statement which we could refer to as the affidavit and which runs up to paragraph 59, that that affidavit is, that statement is indeed the statement which was signed by Mr Mbane, and that is why I have requested... CHAIRPERSON: There is something very wrong with the sound system. JUDGE MILLER: ADV J MOSES: Chairperson, that is why we - I have raised certain preliminary issues for the sake, for the sake of clarity on the part of the Commission as well as for the other interested parties, because my instructions are that we will be using this statement leading up to and including paragraph 59 as the basis of the evidence which will be tendered. If your Lordships and members of the Committee are prepared to proceed or let Mr Mbane proceed on that basis, then I would request just to briefly deal with one or two aspects of the preliminary issues which I have raised in the document, which I have just handed to the Committee. CHAIRPERSON: Do you have anything further to say? ADV J MOSES: Chairperson, members of the Committee. If you would allow me just to briefly explain the purpose and the context of these submissions. Chairperson as I have indicated previously, I was made to understand that the statement, even if it was in the form as contained in volume 2, was indeed distributed, not only to members of the Committee, but also to members of the other legal representatives. And the problem and the basis why I was instructed to raise this with the Committee is with specific reference firstly to the fact that Mr Mbane had been subpoenaed to give evidence and secondly, by the specific - or the aspects mentioned in paragraph 28, 29, 30 and 31 and including 32 of that statement, which... MS KHAMPEPE: May I interrupt Mr Moses. Are you referring to the statement as contained in volume 2, or are you referring to the affidavit which you intended to use today? CHAIRPERSON: There still seems to be something very wrong with the sound system.... ADV J MOSES: If I may proceed Chairperson. The gist of the submission my Lords, members of the Committee, is that from those paragraphs which I have referred to, it is clearly, or it is clear that that would constitute evidence or information which might be to the detriment of the witness and as such might incriminate him. Now it is clear as I understand the provisions of Section 31, my Lord, members of the Committee, that evidence tendered at a Committee in the course of their proceedings could be inadmissible, provided it does not fall within the proviso to sub-section 3 of Section 31. The problem of Mr Mbane, my Lords, members of the Committee, is that there was no application for amnesty and there is...the act does not prohibit the Attorney General from indeed instituting prosecution against Mr Mbane and in the context of that...of that possibility, that real possibility, that it is submitted that an order might have to be made by the Committee with regard to the evidence which might be elicited either through examination in chief, or through cross examination. Because from the statement, whether it be in the form as contained in volume 2, or in the form as it is indicated and reflected in the original document, it is clearly, it is clear from that that those evidence or facts would conforms to what is referred to in Section 31, sub-section 2(c) of the Act, where it is, and it reads thus my Lords and members of the Commission: "A person referred to in sub-section 1 shall only be compelled to answer a question or to produce an article which may incriminate him or her if the Commission has issued an order to that effect." And then the objective jurisdictional requirement, as I understand it, my Lords members of the Commission, after the Commission firstly has consulted with the Attorney General who has jurisdiction, and has satisfied itself that to require such information from such a person is reasonable, necessary and justifiable in an open and democratic society based on freedom and equality, and has satisfied itself that such a person has refused or is likely to refuse to answer a question or produce an article on the grounds that such an answer or article might incriminate him or her. Now it seems to me with respect, my Lords and members of the Committee, and I might be wrong, that in order for Mr Mbane to invoke only the privilege of his evidence not being admissible against him in criminal proceedings should it follow, an order at least is required to be issued by this Committee. That in any event, it seems to me and it is submitted with respect, would not preclude the Attorney General to institute criminal proceedings. It would, however, preclude him or her to use his evidence which would be elicited here and which clearly indicates that it would be of incriminating nature to be used against Mr Mbane, should he be prosecuted. JUDGE MILLER: Mr Moses, so one of the aspects of which the Commission has to satisfy itself is that the person has refused or is likely to refuse to answer a question. As we are sitting here now at this stage, can the Committee, can it be said that the Committee has satisfied itself that as of present, your client is unwilling to answer any question that may be put to him now, even if it is incriminating at this stage? ADV J MOSES: My Lord, it is clear that we will have to invoke that privilege. JUDGE MILLER: So we can then safely put it up that we have satisfied ourselves in terms of 2(c). ADV J MOSES: Correctly so my Lord. CHAIRPERSON: I am afraid I am still a little confused. There is this statement that has been handed in for some purpose or another. But how relevant is it? ADV J MOSES: My Lord, Chairperson, members of the Committee, it seems that the relevance of the complete statement, it would be argued and submitted at a later stage, would include, would run up to only and including paragraph 35, would be submitted that with reference to the original document of the original statement which runs into paragraph up to and including paragraph 59, those would really be irrelevant to the subject matter of these proceedings and should that be canvassed by any of my colleagues, we will certainly have to ask the Committee to make a ruling on the relevancy thereof or otherwise. The purpose of my preliminary submission would relate, as I have indicated, to the potential eliciting of incriminating answers from Mr Mbane, with reference to the paragraphs which I have referred to. Paragraphs 28 up to and including paragraph 32 of the statement, my Lord. CHAIRPERSON: ADV J MOSES: Because there are clear indications that Mr Mbane is incriminated. MS KHAMPEPE: Is it not really, Mr Moses, that it is only part of 32 which might actually give rise to such an incriminating situation insofar as Mr Mbane is concerned? ADV J MOSES: (Question repeated) CHAIRPERSON: There are a number of other paragraphs that implicate him. So why have you chosen these? ADV J MOSES: These were referred to by way of example, my Lords and members of the Committee. The gist of my submission, with respect, would be that certainly there was already an indication by myself on behalf of Mr Mbane that there would be, by virtue of my instruction, there would be an objection should answers be elicited which might be on an incriminating nature, and if that is the case, would that then fall under the provisions of Section 31. CHAIRPERSON: Thirty one appears to say that he can be compelled to answer any question put to him with regard to the subject matter of the hearing, that is the application for amnesty that is before us. That is all he can be compelled to answer. Is that not so? ADV J MOSES: That is so, that is so my Lord. CHAIRPERSON: And who has subpoenaed him to give evidence? ADV J MOSES: MS R PATEL: If I may clarify the position, Honourable Chairperson. The witness was definitely subpoenaed by us. He was subpoenaed by us. CHAIRPERSON: And on what is it proposed to lead his evidence? In regard to what evidence are you going to lead him? MS R PATEL: The purpose of the subpoena was to elicit not only the information that was gathered from the statement that was included in the bundle, but also whatever other information he may have had that was relevant to the present enquiry. CHAIRPERSON: But I understand you to say that he was subpoenaed merely to give evidence as to what took place at the scene of the so-called Guguletu 7 incident. MS R PATEL: That is correct, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: And is he also expected to give evidence about the infiltration of this group? MS R PATEL: That is correct. Not just the scene but the entire operation leading up to the killing of the deceased in this matter. MS KHAMPEPE: Ms Patel, on what basis was the statement contained in volume 2 included in the bundle that was given to us and the legal representatives of the applicants? MS R PATEL: Just a bit of background. At the time that the statement was included in the bundle, Mr Mbane was untraceable from my information. And at the pre-trial hearing, it was included in the bundle for what it was worth. The Committee could have taken whatever cognisance they felt - they felt was, I beg your pardon. They could have taken whatever cognisance they wanted of it at that stage, and also there was no indication then they we would ever have traced Mr Mbane. JUDGE MILLER: My recollection is that the last time this Committee sat and it was indicated that Mr Mbane - that the intention was to call Mr Mbane as a witness in this matter, it was the view of the Committee that the whole hearing should be postponed in order to allow him to obtain legal representation which he has now obtained for the very purpose, for the very reason that there was incriminating statements relating to this incident contained in his so-called affidavit, particularly just for example, paragraph 28 and 30. So I now ask, has the Attorney General been consulted in this matter, as envisaged by 31(2)(a)? Section 31(2)(a) says that a person referred to in sub-section 1, that is - a witness who may be required to answer incriminating questions, shall only be compelled to answer a question if (a) the Commission has consulted the Attorney General who has jurisdiction. MS R PATEL: If I may. Firstly that point was never raised prior to today, and secondly my understanding of the said section is that it falls within the scope of the Commission and not the Committee or the evidence leader as such. JUDGE MILLER: I am just asking are you aware of whether they has been complied with? MS R PATEL: JUDGE MILLER: By the Commission? MS R PATEL: To the best of my knowledge, not. ADV J MOSES: Perhaps for the benefit of my colleague, with your permission my Lords, members of the Committee, a Committee is also defined in Section 1 as reference and including or the Commission in chapter 6 refers to a Committee or the Commission as well. So the reference to Commission in Section 31 would include a Committee such as yourself, with respect. MS KHAMPEPE: CHAIRPERSON: Anybody else wish to say anything on this? MR BOOYENS: MS R PATEL: I would imagine, Mr Chairperson, that the best person to answer that would be my investigating officer. If I can call him. He seems to have stepped out - the logistics officer has just gone to look for him. Thanks. MR B WILLIAMS: CHAIRPERSON: Anyone else wish to say anything? MS KHAMPEPE: MS R PATEL: CHAIRPERSON: HEARING ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON: I am informed that the legal officer acting on our behalf has consulted with the Attorney General in terms of the provisions of Section 31 of the promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act and further we are satisfied that to require such information from the witness is reasonable, necessary and justifiable in an open and democratic society based on freedom and equality and we are satisfied that from the Notice we were given that the person was not content to comply with the provisions of Section 2(c). Is that so? ADV J MOSES: That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: We are now satisfied from the information before us that the provisions of Section 31 have been complied with and that the witness is required subject to provisions of sub-sections 2,3 and 5 to answer any questions put to him with regard to the subject matter of this hearing, notwithstanding that the answers might incriminate him. That is in terms of Section 31 (1). ADV J MOSES: As the Committee pleases. Chairperson, members of the Committee, with your permission, we would the proceed with the evidence of Mr Mbane, and as I have indicated and requested before, Ms Berlin will lead the initial part of the evidence with your permission. As the Committee pleases. I beg your pardon, Chairperson, I have also indicated that the witness himself will converse in Xhosa. The questions and evidence will be led by Ms Berlin in English. It has been arranged with the interpreters also. JIMMY MBANE: (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS P BERLIN: Mr Mbane, under paragraph 1, is the information, your particulars under paragraph 1, are they correct? MR J MBANE: Yes, they are correct. MS P BERLIN: MR J MBANE: Yes, it is correct. MS P BERLIN: Then you stayed on in Port Elizabeth and you worked at Ford Motor Company until 1981 when you took a conscious decision to go back to Zimbabwe to join the African National Congress. Is this correct? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: When you came to Zimbabwe you met a certain guy, it says under paragraph 6. This certain guy, who was this? MR J MBANE: Yes it is so. MS P BERLIN: MR J MBANE: It was Flint Moore. MS P BERLIN: And he was a member of the ANC. When exactly did you go to Zimbabwe? MR J MBANE: It was in 1981. MS P BERLIN: Your girlfriend contacted you later on and you then...you were then looking for an excuse of joining the ANC, in paragraph 7. Why did you need an excuse to join the ANC? MR J MBANE: MR P BERLIN: You mean you had to have an excuse to leave your family and not telling them what you were going to do? MR J MBANE: Yes, I was forced to. They did not have to know what I was going to do. MS P BERLIN: When was this? Can you remember exactly when this was? MR J MBANE: It was in 1981. MS P BERLIN: Thank you. So you then had to get an excuse. You decided to get drunk and you beat your girlfriend and smashed windows and you were arrested. Then you told the police you wanted to join the ANC. Why was it a good idea to tell the police that you were going to join the ANC? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: So with the police do you mean the Central Intelligence Organisation in Zimbabwe? MR J MBANE: Yes. MS P BERLIN: Okay. So the CIO helped ANC to recruit people? MR J MBANE: Yes, it was assisting it to recruit because they would interrogate you and thereafter they would call the ANC to come and collect you. MS P BERLIN: How long a time did you stand in Central Prison waiting for the ANC to collect you? MR J MBANE: It might be three to four weeks. MS P BERLIN: Thank you. Then in paragraph 8 you were released from prison and you met a guy named Flint Moore again. Was this the same guy that you met in paragraph 6? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: MR J MBANE: Yes, he is the one, Flint Moore. MS P BERLIN: MR J MBANE: There was another problem. Before taking me, they had to interrogate me, because the apartheid regime they used to assassinate people and thus they had to establish that I was genuine. MS P BERLIN: Thank you. You say in paragraph 8 that you were sent to Ashton Park. Could you please tell us where Ashton Park is? MR J MBANE: It is in Harare. MS P BERLIN: And you stayed there at Ashton Park for almost six months and then you started to panic. Can you please explain to us why you started panicking? MR J MBANE: What I realised there was that there was a shooting that once took place in that house and South Africans killed an ANC member there, and thus I panicked. And another thing, my father was also publicising in the radio media about my whereabouts. MS P BERLIN: Could you not have contacted him and told him that you were okay? MR J MBANE: No, we were not allowed to make any calls or even go out in the streets. MS P BERLIN: And why was this? MR J MBANE: It was for the security reasons. MS P BERLIN: Alright, thank you. Then you left in paragraph 9...is it working? Is it working now? Hello? Now? Paragraph 9, you were taken to Cheronto from Ashton Park... CHAIRPERSON: MS P BERLIN: Pardon? CHAIRPERSON: MS P BERLIN: Is it working now? Thank you. You were taken to Cheronto. When was this? MR J MBANE: It was after having stayed there for six months, they took me to Cheronto. That was in 1982. MS J BERLIN: MR J MBANE: MS J BERLIN: Then you were taken to a recruitment centre in Lusaka, and you met some people you knew from Port Elizabeth. These were friends of yours? MR J MBANE: Yes, it was friends from Port Elizabeth. MS J BERLIN: And how did they end up in Lusaka? Could you tell us that story please? MR J MBANE: They had completed their training and their office bearers there. MS J BERLIN: Yes, I am sorry. I just needed to think a little here. Did you stay there for six months, that would take us to June/July 1982. And then in paragraph 10, you were taken to Tandera. Could you tell us where Tandera is? MR J MBANE: It is in Zambia, Lusaka. It is the base of new recruits. MS P BERLIN: And you spent almost nine months there, is this correct. I think you told me that it was six months, is that correct? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: So you spent six months there? And what did you exactly do there? MR J MBANE: We were undergoing political education as to how the ANC operated and we were waiting for the correct passports because we were using false documents then. MS P BERLIN: And where were you going to if you needed passports? MR J MBANE: I was to go to Angola for training. MS P BERLIN: And the Vienna Camp, is that a transit camp where you stayed first when you entered Angola and then you were transferred to the training camp, Kashid? MR J MBANE: Yes, it is a transit camp in Angola where you undergo training. MS P BERLIN: Did you undergo training at Vienna Camp? MR J MBANE: No, I did not undergo any training in Vienna, only at Kashid Camp. MS P BERLIN: And what exactly were you trained for in Kashid Camp? MR J MBANE: It was military combat work that we trained for and military engineering, firearms training and artillery. And political education of the ANC as well. MS P BERLIN: So, this training at Kashid Camp in Angola lasted for six months, so you would, so we can assume that you graduated from this training and by June 1983... MR J MBANE: Yes it is so. MS P BERLIN: And then I understand it that you would like to go back to South Africa. Tell us what you wanted to do when you were ready with your training. MR J MBANE: I wanted to come on a mission in order to fight in the country. MS P BERLIN: And exactly why did Chris Hani refuse you to go back to South Africa and send you to the USSR instead? MR J MBANE: He said it was very early. Papers were sent from the Headquarters in Lusaka instructing me to go back to the Headquarters, but because of some confusion, I landed up in the Soviet Union, but I was not supposed to go there. MS P BERLIN: Why is this? Where were you supposed to have gone? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: And what did you do in Lusaka? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: And are these instructions...let me see...are these the instructions in paragraph 14? Instructions to go to Port Elizabeth and then eliminate a Security Branch Police by the name of Van Rensburg and other two brothers? MR J MBANE: Yes it is so. MS P BERLIN: Can you please clarify for us who these two brothers were? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: Were these blood brothers of Van Rensburg, or were they shall I call it "cultural" brothers, black brothers? MR J MBANE: They were working with Van Rensburg in the Security Branch in Port Elizabeth. MS P BERLIN: Yes, but I asked you about the two brothers. Who were they, were they brothers of Van Rensburg? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: I see. Thank you. Then in paragraph 15 you met Flint Moore again. He assisted you with your passport. Now you had got your instructions to go to Port Elizabeth on this mission and Flint Moore assisted you with your passport. Was that a South African passport you were issued with? MR J MBANE: Yes, it was a South African passport, but it had already expired. MS P BERLIN: But did you have any problems in entering South Africa in spite of the fact that the passport was expired? MR J MBANE: I had to go the High Commissioner of South Africa to apply for a new passport, and I did exactly that. MS P BERLIN: And you got your new passport? MR J MBANE: Yes, I did. MS P BERLIN: Then you had to wait in Bulawayo, and you stayed there for a very long time, or stayed very long in Bulawayo Hotel waiting for weapons to be delivered. How long a time did you stay in Bulawayo? MR J MBANE: It might have been three to four weeks. MS P BERLIN: And then you are stating that you talked to Lennox, one of your commanders, and he recommended you to contact you father and ask him for money, since you had spent so much in Bulawayo. And then you met Sheriff, who was from Ordinance Department, and then you went to meet your father. Can you explain what Ordinance Department is, please, shortly? MR J MBANE: I talked about Lennox - Lennox was my second in charge after Chris Hani. He gave me money to the value of R1500.00 because we were both from Port Elizabeth, and he gave me R800.00 to hand over to his brother and then proceed to Harare. CHAIRPERSON: MR J MBANE: Chris Hani and Lennox gave me R1500.00. Thozamile Botha is from Port Elizabeth, he gave me R800.00 to give to his brother. MS P BERLIN: MR J MBANE: No, I never spoke to Lennox. He was accompanied by Chris Hani. And they both gave me money. MS P BERLIN: MR J MBANE: It was a Makarov and two boxes full of ammunition and three magazines full. MS P BERLIN: MR J MBANE; I left them in the baggage cloakroom. MS P BERLIN: What was in the bags. MR J MBANE: It was my clothing. I took my firearms and ammunition with. It was only clothing inside the bag. MS P BERLIN: And why did you not leave your weapon in the bag? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: MR J MBANE: Yes, I thought they were going to help me. They had to help me because UDF was working with the ANC. MS P BERLIN: Yes, and you walked around all the time? MR J MBANE: I went around asking because it was the first time I came to Kimberly and unfortunately the person I stopped and asked was a policeman. MS P BERLIN: Could you tell us what you asked him, or rather what did he answer and what did he do? MR J MBANE: I asked him where are the UDF offices, he showed me in a certain direction and after some time, whilst I was in the direction that he pointed me, some policemen came and they were already pointing their firearms at me. I tried to hit back, but my system jammed. MS P BERLIN: You took out your Makarov, and what... MR J MBANE: Yes. MS P BERLIN: And then you were arrested. You were taken where? MR J MBANE: I was first taken to Kimberly and stayed there for some time. From there on they took me to Barkly West in chains. MS P BERLIN: And where is Barkly West? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: And what happened at Barkly West? Can you please tell us your story. MR J MBANE: Whilst I was in Barkly West I was chained all the time, and they would only unchain me if I was washing, or otherwise I was chained all the time, and I was communicating through windows with the other prisoners, and then I noticed Pappie and George, who we met in exile and they were already arrested as well. So I was chatting with them through the windows all the time, these two gentlemen. MS S BERLIN: How do you say you got to know Pappie and George? MR J MBANE: We used to chat with them through the windows and they told me that they have been long arrested. MS S BERLIN: No, I mean how did you know them from before? Where in exile, how in which way did you meet them? MR J MBANE: I was with them in Vienna and Kashid Camp. Me and Pappie were in the same unit, and George was our instructor. MS P BERLIN: How long a time did you spend at Barkly West and Kimberly in total? MR J MBANE: It might have been seven months. I was travelling every day...to Kimberly where I was being interrogated. MS P BERLIN: Paragraph 19. The persons you mention on the first two lines, were those the people who interrogated you, or who did interrogate you? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: The visit you mention in paragraph 19, by all these people here. What purpose did that visit have? MR J MBANE: I know some of them from exile. I was seeing the others for the very first time. They intention was to recruit me, so that I can work with them. MS P BERLIN: They were returned, so to speak? MR J MBANE: Yes, they were already working in the country? MS P BERLIN: And did they help identify you? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: When you say that you went to Kimberly, you met De Kock, who gave you two options. Was this the first time you met De Kock? MR J MBANE: Yes, I was seeing him for the very first time. MS P BERLIN: In which way did he express that you had two options? To be killed or to co-operate with them... MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: So is the incident you mentioned in paragraph 19, is it the same incident as the first lines in paragraph 20, when De Kock and a certain white policeman known as Tiny took you to a certain farm and threatened you with the parabella gun? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: Was this farm Vlakplaas, of which farm was this? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: So it was close to Barkly West. Were you blindfolded all the time? MR J MBANE: Yes, I was blindfolded. MS P BERLIN: Tell I why you agreed to work with these people. MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: MR J MBANE: I decided not to go along with them because I had a lot of information by the time, and they needed that information from me. MS P BERLIN: Who needed that information, sorry? MR J MBANE: At the time I was being interrogated, I had already released some of the information: where did I get my training, and some photos had been shown to me and it was people who I know from exile. That was the reason why they wanted me to work with them. TAPE 2 MS P BERLIN: Why do you think that De Kock was so eager to recruit you? Did you have any particular knowledge? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: Can you give us a date when you accepted to work with the Security Branch Police? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: MR J MBANE: It was when I was released from prison. MS P BERLIN: So you were released from prison on 27th February 1984 and then a while later you started working with De Kock? MR J MBANE: I went to Vlakplaas after that from Section 31. MS P BERLIN: Alright you went from Section 31 in Kimberly to Vlakplaas. Yes? MR J MBANE: Venter and Bothma used to come and show me the photos, it was just a (...indistinct). From there I left with Van der Merwe to Vlakplaas in Pretoria. MS P BERLIN: How long a time did you spend at Section 31 at Kimberly and meet with Jack (...indistinct) and Venter and look at the photos? MR J MBANE: It was just a short period but what I can remember is that I spent 7 months both in Kimberly and Barkly. MS P BERLIN: Alright. You met Eric Maluleki at Section 31. How did you know him from before? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: MR J MBANE: He wanted to be free. MS P BERLIN: And was he? MR J MBANE: Yes, he did. MS P BERLIN: You mean Eric Maluleki wanted to be free and he was set free while he testified, or what are you saying? MR J MBANE: Yes, he was freed. Yes, he got his freedom. MS P BERLIN: So when were you taken to Vlakplaas, I am now on paragraph 22. MR J MBANE: After the identification of photos, I left with Van der Merwe. He was with some other white men. They took us to Vlakplaas. MS P BERLIN: And this was some time after the 27th February, so it might have been, would you say sometime in March 1984? MR J MBANE: It might be the first few days of March. MS P BERLIN: The other persons that you met at Vlakplaas who you knew from exile, were they also turned? MR J MBANE: Yes, they were from exile. MS P BERLIN: So, can you tell us a bit about Vlakplaas hierarchy in paragraph 23, I understand that you became an Askari, and under whom did you fit into the Vlakplaas hierarchy, who was your commander? MR J MBANE: Eugene De Kock used to be the commander. And then there was another white man, Mr Venter, Captain Venter, and others, but the people who were in command used to be Captain Venter and Mr Eugene de Kock. MS P BERLIN: So you were working directly under De Kock and took orders from De Kock? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: You say in paragraph 23 that De Kock took you to the bar, and this I understand is a bar at Vlakplaas? MR J MBANE: Yes, there is a bar. MS P BERLIN: Then he told you that the purpose of being at Vlakplaas is to hunt and kill the terrorists. What did you think when you heard this. MR J MBANE: I had already given up that I would work with them, there was nothing else I could do at the time. MS P BERLIN: In paragraph 24 you say that you were given the first mission. Is this a direct statement, that this first mission should be the one to Cape Town? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: You mean your first serious mission was in Cape Town in 1996? MR J MBANE: In 1986. MS P BERLIN: Of course, thank you - 1986. But you came to Vlakplaas in 1984 and what kind of missions what kind of operations were there in Vlakplaas then that you did? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: MR J MBANE: CHAIRPERSON: MR J MBANE: Yes, Metzing. CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 37. MS P BERLIN: Now, until when did you stay at Vlakplaas, just to get the full picture? MR J MBANE: I stayed there until mid 1990 when I was changed to work for the intelligence. After that I left, I went to work for National Intelligence. MS P BERLIN: Until when did you work there? MR J MBANE: Until 1992. MS P BERLIN: Okay thank you. MR J MBANE: I am not sure whether you want to know about the number of people or what type of operations were taking place there. MS P BERLIN: No, I would just like to know what a unit is and how many people approximately in one unit and if you always worked with the same people in a unit and what kind of persons were involved - Askaris, policeman, other staff... MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: So you changed unit every month, or you had a different commander every month? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: No, I asked you a question. Did you change commander every month, or did you change units every month? MR J MBANE: Yes, we were alternating units. This month we would work with another senior and the following month you would work with another group so we were rotating. MS P BERLIN: Thank you. Who was the commander in this particular unit, who was you commander on this mission at this point when you left for Cape Town? MR J MBANE: It was Belletjies and Joe Coetzee. MS P BERLIN: Could you please say the full names of those persons? MR J MBANE: We used to call Bellingan Belletjies and there was Joe Coetzee. MS P BERLIN: Bellingan and Coetzee they were from Vlakplaas, I understand? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: Were you told why you were sent there? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: So who did you meet when you came to Cape Town? Who gave you more information and what kind of information did you get? If you could explain all that to us please. MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: Can you please describe who told you to infiltrate in Khayelitsha? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: Were you explained why you should infiltrate the people? Did you know the purpose of the infiltration by this instruction you received? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: So what are you saying? That you infiltrated to shoot them? MR BOOYENS: MS P BERLIN: Okay, I withdraw that question, I am so sorry. In paragraph 24, the last sentence, you were sent to infiltrate these people with Thabiso Sepamla, can you please explain to us who Thabiso Sepamla was? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: So, is the same error made in paragraph 25, "myself and Thabiso Sepamla", it should be Eric Maluleka? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: You infiltrated a squatter camp, you met a certain chief by the name of Nyengeni, in Khayelitsha and he was the leader of a squatter camp. And he organised for you to stay there. How...can you explain how you were accepted there? What was it that made them accept you and offer you a place to stay? MR J MBANE: When we arrived there, we told him that we are from exile and we were there on a mission and he must find a place for us to stay because he could see that we had ammunition, the AK47, the hand grenades. So he had to accept us because he had proof that we were from exile. MR P BERLIN: And these weapons that you had with you. Where did you get them from? MR J MBANE: They were given to us by Bellingan and Mr Liebenberg. MS P BERLIN: And did that happen at Vlakplaas or in Koeberg? MR J MBANE: The commander from Vlakplaas gave us when we were in Koeberg. MS P BERLIN: MR J MBANE: Eric Maluleka, Eric Shakes Maluleka, not Eric Sifadi or Thabiso. MS P BERLIN: So how many weapons were issued to you? Can you remember this? MR J MBANE: Yes, I can remember clearly. We got four AK47 rifles, eight magazines, four hand grenades and four detonators. A Makarov and a Tokorev. MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mbane, who in particular - you have previously stated that a commander from Vlakplaas gave you the weapons. Who is that commander who gave you the weapons? MR J MBANE: Chairperson, the person that accompanies you from Vlakplaas is your commander at that moment and that person was Mr Bellingan. He is the one I came with from Vlakplaas. Belletjies is my commander from Vlakplaas. We came together from Vlakplaas. MS P BERLIN: How is it that you can remember exactly what, how many weapons and what kind of weapons were issued to you in paragraph 26? MR J MBANE: MS P BERLIN: How many people were you going to train at this point...infiltrate at this point? MR J MBANE: Initially, I found four people. And a fifth one joined in by the name of Rasta. All in all we were seven in number. Including myself and Eric Maluleka. After sometime, a few joined in and there were nine excluding the two of us. MS P BERLIN: Where was it that you infiltrated? Was it in Khayelitsha? MR J MBANE: Yes, it was in Khayelitsha. MS P BERLIN: In paragraph 27 you talk about a Comrade called Chris Rastaman, who appeared to be locally trained. How did you meet him and how was he accepted into the group? MR J MBANE: Yamile told us that there was a Comrade who was trained and is having problems with his AK rifle and he said that we should get in contact with him. I said he must bring him and he did. He came to me with this AK47, it could not fire, it was not firing automatically, it was only firing single shots, and thus I told Shakes that we must assist this gentleman. I inquired as to where did he get his training. He said he trained locally and whoever trained him gave him this AK47. That is what I heard from him. MS P BERLIN: ADV J MOSES: Just to summarise then, Mr Mbane. If we understand your evidence thus far correctly, is that initially when you infiltrated the group, it was a group of four people and thereafter another person joined by the name of Rastaman, and then the group consisted of five people excluding yourself and Eric Shakes Maluleki. Did I understand you correctly? MR J MBANE: ADV J MOSES: Now, you told the Committee that you were told by your commander that the reason why you had to infiltrate this group is because they were heavily trained and they were dangerous and they were destabilising the area in and around the - in Cape Town. Did I understand you correctly? MR J MBANE: ADV J MOSES: Now when you - your first impressions when you first infiltrated the group of four, what was your impressions about their level of training? Taking into consideration that you yourself had been exposed to intensive training in weapons, armoury, explosives and so on, what was your perception of the level of training of those four people? MR J MBANE: What I noticed among these four people during our interrogation is the fact that they were untrained. They were not aware of training at all. ADV J MOSES: Can you tell the Committee whether you had conveyed those perceptions and that information to any one of your superiors? In other words the information that these people seemed to you not to be trained. MR J MBANE: ADV J MOSES: So, the initial four were not trained, and when Rasta joined the group, you learnt and you got the impression that he was indeed trained. Did I understand you correctly? Is that what you are telling the Committee? MR J MBANE: JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Moses, sorry to interrupt, but on that, you say that Rasta joined the group. Did Rasta join the group or - because I thought you said that Rasta came to the group at your request because you had heard that someone was having trouble with his weapon and you invited that person to be brought to you so that you could look at the weapon. What is the position? Did he join the group or did he happen to join the group after being invited to come to have his weapon checked out by yourself? MR J MBANE: Yes, he joined after I had said he must be brought to me. ADV J MOSES: May I proceed? Look, perhaps just to get more clarity there Mr Mbane, it seems that you were in a position to give instructions and that those instructions would then be adhered to. It would be obeyed. Why would you be in that position, to be able to give instructions, which would be obeyed by other people? What gave you that authority? MR J MBANE: ADV J MOSES: Now, when you...the information about the level of training of the initial four and the level of training of Chris Rastaman. That information which you had, did you share that information with anyone besides, obviously yourself and Eric Maluleka who was with you in this operation. Did you share that information with anyone else? MR J MBANE: When Rasta came I reported to Messrs Bellingan and Liebenberg that these people are not trained, but there is only one who is and he is in possession of an AK rifle. I was talking to them over the telephone. They were residing somewhere in Seapoint, and I explained to them as to what was happening. ADV J MOSES: MR J MBANE: Yes, they gave me further instructions. They said that if there is one who is trained, we must train the remaining four as well. ADV J MOSES: And did you and Eric, did you adhere to that order? In other words, did you provide training to those other people also? MR J MBANE: Yes, it is so Sir. We followed the instructions. ADV J MOSES: Now, if you were sent on a mission such as this, where you had to infiltrate a certain group of people Mr Mbane, would you be required to keep the person who is your superior, or who is your commander, would you be required to keep that person informed as to what is happening within the group? And if that is so, perhaps you could just enlighten the Committee as to how that works. What is required from you as the infiltrator into a group? What is required from you? MR J MBANE: In the event of infiltration and being known that you have been trained beyond the borders, I was given a contact number to use in the event of anything. ADV J MOSES: So they would...do I understand you correct that they would be....you would report to them periodically so that they would be kept informed as to the developments taking place within that group and within that community where you are operating at the specific point in time. Did I understand you correct? MR J MBANE: Yes. I was not reporting on a daily basis, but after a day or two, because...I would skip a day or two or even a week before phoning. But some of our people with this operation, you would pass by in a patrol car. ADV J MOSES: You are saying that your commanders would be informed by yourselves as to what the developments are if there are any within the group which you have infiltrated? MR J MBANE: Yes, they would get the information through me. I was the main person who was reporting because Shakes could not drive and that I was doing most of the reporting. ADV J MOSES: If you are referring to drive now...did you have access to a vehicle when you established your legend as it were, when you infiltrated this group. Were you given any vehicles or a vehicle? MR J MBANE: I was given a kombi that we came down with, from Pretoria with Mbelo. ADV J MOSES: Were you...able to use this kombi as part of your mission to infiltrate the group in Khayelitsha? MR J MBANE: Yes, it is so. We kept it with us in Khayelitsha. ADV J MOSES: Did you keep this vehicle right until after the incident which the Committee is concerned with here? Namely, if one could refer to it as the Guguletu 7 incident, or did it appear...did you get rid of it before this incident referred to as the Guguletu 7? MR J MBANE: I got rid of it before the event...the police confiscated it. ADV J MOSES: Could you briefly tell the Committee how that happened? MR J MBANE: ADV J MOSES: Do you know what happened to that kombi after it was confiscated by the police? MR J MBANE: ADV J MOSES: Now, in paragraph 28, the reference is made to a alleged person, or a person who is suspected to be an alleged informer. Because that person was found with a tape attached to his body. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: Yes that is correct. ADV J MOSES: It is also made there that this person was killed and in paragraph 29, the day after this person was killed, a certain Lieutenant Liebenberg was contacted by yourself and a certain discussion took place between yourself and one Liebenberg. Is that so? MR J MBANE: That is so, Sir. ADV J MOSES: When this discussion took place, was it only with Liebenberg, or was there any other person also present, Mr Mbane? MR J MBANE: Whenever I met Bellingan, he was with Liebenberg, they were always together. ADV J MOSES: In paragraph 30 reference is made to the fact that the period - you provided these people with training. You gave them some training for a period of two months. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: ADV J MOSES: In order words, would we then be correct to say that your group, the unit with which you came down to Cape Town, were here in Cape Town already for a period of two months or more by the time that the incident referred to as the Guguletu 7 incident happened? MR J MBANE: ADV J MOSES: Now, in paragraph 33, you...reference is made there that the people started demanding, or telling you that they want to fight - the people you are referring to here, who are they Mr Mbane? MR J MBANE: These are the people I was training. I had finished training them and they were anxious to go on a mission. It is difficult to train somebody and after finishing, you just keep them idling. ADV J MOSES: You got the clear impression from them that they wanted to utilise the skills which they had gained through your training at that point. MR J MBANE: ADV J MOSES: Perhaps you could inform the Committee what...did you decide on any plan of action? Or what was the discussions about and did you make any specific plans? That is now with reference to the group, Mr Mbane. MR J MBANE: Whilst we were sitting there, Rasta called me and Shakes aside because he was one of the seniors of the group, and he told me about the kombi, that comes from Montana to Guguletu Police Station and Mannenberg Police Station and is full of Senior Office Inspectors and it uses that route daily, and when he said that to me I said to him first thing in the morning, we must go and recognise that place, and see whether this kombi follows this routine daily and we did that exactly. The following day I sent Shakes and Rasta to check this kombi and they confirmed that it went past at the same time. Whilst they went away, I went to meet Belletjies at a hotel in Seapoint where they had booked in a room and I found them there and explained everything to them. I told them that there was going to be a problem because these people were fully trained and they want action and wanted to hit this kombi. On the third day, I reported again and they took me with a kombi that has tinted windows and I showed them the spot that was intended to be the ambush spot. ADV J MOSES: Sorry to interrupt, Mr Mbane. Who are they who took you with the kombi to the spot? MR J MBANE: When I attempted to run, somebody was firing. As I approached, Belletjies said you must not shoot that tall man, he is one of us. He said that in Afrikaans. Whilst I was still on the ground, I heard a bullet ringing. I was still in the car. They dragged this young man and threw him on the ground and shot him. He was still alive. And when I heard that the firing had stopped, I ran and I went into hiding and some people took me to get some dressing for my wounds and I was taken to Khayelitsha and I boarded a bus to Koeberg and that is where they found me after the whole incident. That is what I can tell you about that mission. I trained these people and I drew them to their graves. ADV J MOSES: Now, perhaps just for the sake of clarity, Mr Mbane, we just need to break up your story a little bit into sections so that the Committee can have a clear understanding as to the sequence, how these events unfold. We know that you were there so you are familiar with what has happened, so bear with us if we just have to take you very slowly through that event. If I understand you correctly, did you tell the Committee that after you have decided to...after you have made a final decision, the group now, to proceed with the attach on the police vehicle, with the police officers, did you then have a discussion or a meeting with Mr Bellingan and any other person who are connected to the Security establishment. In other words did you see Bellingan, did you tell him this is what is going to happen? MR J MBANE: Yes, I told them, I even showed them the spot where everything was supposed to take place. ADV J MOSES:: Can you remember when was that just in terms of...we know that this incident happened on the 3rd March 1986. Before, was it a day or two days before this incident? When was it that you took Mr Bellingan and company to the scene where the attack is supposed to take place? MR J MBANE: It was a day before the attack. ADV J MOSES: I also understood you...and you must tell me whether I understood you correctly, that when...before the attack was supposed to have taken place, you and certain people of the group actually went to the scene where the attack was going to take place, to survey the place and make final arrangements for the attack to take place. Did I understand you correctly? Perhaps you should just clarify to the Committee. CHAIRPERSON: MR J MBANE: Yes it is so. ADV J MOSES: Can you remember whether anything was put at the scene prior to the day when the attack was supposed to have taken place. MR J MBANE: We put two AK rifles and four magazines there. ADV J MOSES: Now, if you say we, Mr Mbane, who are you referring to? MR J MBANE: It was myself, Eric and one gentleman who was going to alight with Eric at the same time the next day. ADV J MOSES: Can you remember whether you had informed Mr Bellingan about those weapons which were placed there prior to the attack? MR J MBANE: No, I never told him. ADV J MOSES: Now, on the day of the incident, you have the kombi, you have gathered and you are now on your way to the scene, the place where you are supposed to attack this kombi. How many people were you in total at that stage? How many people were part of the group which was going to participate in the attack? MR J MBANE: We were nine in number. ADV J MOSES: And if I understand you correct... MS KHAMPEPE: May I interrupt? When you say you were nine, does that include you and Mr Maluleka? MR J MBANE: That includes myself and Maluleka. ADV J MOSES: Now when you approached the scene, from your earlier testimony, it seemed that you were the driver of that vehicle on the day of the incident. Am I correct? MR J MBANE: ADV J MOSES: Now as you were approaching the place where the attack is going to, or was supposed to have taken place, did you notice anyone, or did you notice anything? MR J MBANE: I saw our minibus that we drove from Vlakplaas to Cape Town. I beg your pardon, from Barkly. And there were other people inside this kombi. Although it had tinted windows, I could see that there were people inside. It was parked there. ADV J MOSES: So you identified that kombi as belonging to the police? MR J MBANE: It is the kombi that we used. We used two kombis - mini-buses. And the other one was taken by police. And this one was from Pretoria, from Vlakplaas, the one that I saw. ADV J MOSES: When you informed Mr Bellingan about the impending attack which would take place on the specific day and at the specific place, did you give him a description of the vehicle which you were going to use at the time? MR J MBANE: Yes, I gave him a description of the car. ADV J MOSES: Is that the description of a car, or a kombi, because the interpreter has mentioned a car now, Mr Mbane. MR J MBANE: It was a description of a kombi. CHAIRPERSON: When did you steal it? MR J MBANE: When we took our decision about the mission. Two days thereafter we went to steal this kombi and we parked this kombi somewhere else two days after the decision was taken.... CHAIRPERSON: How long was that before the day on which this incident took place? MR J MBANE: We were to attack, that took place two days just before the mission. ADV J MOSES: Now, you are approaching the scene, you have noticed the familiar kombi which you have identified as one from Vlakplaas, and you have testified then that you first dropped two persons. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: ADV J MOSES: And those two, the first two, who were they again, Mr Mbane? MR J MBANE: CHAIRPERSON: Had you seen this kombi parked there by that time? MR J MBANE: Yes, I saw it. ADV J MOSES: MR J MBANE: ADV J MOSES: And you said you drove, you continued driving and thereafter you dropped three persons. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: ADV J MOSES: Would you be able to recall more or less what the distance was between the place where you first dropped the two and the place where you thereafter dropped the three other persons, more or less. MR J MBANE: ADV J MOSES: The second group of three people, whom you dropped, can you remember whether any one or all three of them had any firearms or explosives in their possession when they were dropped? MR J MBANE: The last three were armed with pistols and hand grenades. I gave them the pistols and the hand grenades. That was the last three. ADV J MOSES: After you had dropped those three persons, what did you, what was the next thing you have done, Mr Mbane? MR J MBANE When I was crossing the bridge, I heard something like a grenade exploding and I jumped. ADV J MOSES: MR J MBANE: ADV J MOSES: And you were now as you were approaching the scene or the place where you had dropped your members of the group, you heard an explosion. MR J MBANE: It was on my way back after the U-turn, when I was approaching the spot where I had dropped them, I heard the explosion that sounded like a hand grenade and then I jumped. JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, what do you mean you jumped. Did you jump while you were in the vehicle, or did you jump out of the vehicle? What precisely did you mean you jumped... MR J MBANE: I hit the pavement and I jumped out of the car. I opened the door and I jumped out of the car, out of the kombi. ADV J MOSES: Can you recall after you had jumped out of the kombi that has now hit the kerb, what happened to the other two persons who were with you in the kombi? MR J MBANE: I am not sure but I think Rasta was sitting next to the door. After jumping out of the car, I left my AK47 in the kombi. I jumped out of the car, I went behind the car. We were exchanging fire. I heard someone pulling this other gentleman out of the car. ADV J MOSES: MR J MBANE: There were some people around. A lot of people. He was talking to some of them. After having given that instruction, there was a cease fire. CHAIRPERSON: But who was the person that he said should not be shot? MR J MBANE: It was myself. I was not supposed to be shot, according to him. ADV J MOSES: You were also referring to a person which was dragged out of this vehicle and...by Mr Bellingan. What exactly did you observe? What was happening there Mr Mbane? MR J MBANE: He opened and then I heard a shot ringing in the car. As to whether he had already shot him when he pulled him out, that I did not see. But what I saw is when he shot him when he was on the ground, lying on his side. But I heard a shot ringing in the car and he dragged this man out of the car. ADV J MOSES: And that "he" that you are referring to, as translated by the interpreter, that is Mr Bellingan that you are referring to? MR J MBANE: I am referring to him, Mr Bellingan. ADV J MOSES: Was that the only thing that you observed before you ran away, before you took flight Mr Mbane, or is there anything else which you observed there in that vicinity. MR J MBANE: No, that is the only thing I saw. And that is the only thing that I saw, at close range. ADV J MOSES: And you said thereafter that you ran away and you were assisted by people who were living in that vicinity. MR J MBANE: That is so, Sir. ADV J MOSES: And after you caught a bus, you made contact with your other people, your commander again at Koeberg. Did I understand you correct? MR J MBANE: I started in Guguletu wherefrom I proceeded to Khayelitsha, and from thereon they dropped me off at the bus terminus, where I took a bus because I realised I had to go - everything was out of proportion. ADV J MOSES: Did you ascertain, just before I conclude my section of the examination in chief, did you...were you informed or do you know how many people were killed or died there as a result of that...the shooting that took place at that specific intersection or place in Guguletu, Mr Mbane? MR J MBANE: Yes, I was told. ADV J MOSES: And what were you told? MR J MBANE: I was told that the whole seven died. ADV J MOSES: Meaning except yourself and Eric, the group who was with you, everyone? MR J MBANE: Yes, the whole group. ADV J MOSES: It is also mentioned here in paragraph 35 that you and Eric received a reward after that incident had taken place. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: Yes. ADV J MOSES: You were rewarded R7000.00 each? MR J MBANE: That is correct. Mbelo received R1000.00. ADV J MOSES: Is there anything that you would like to add for the benefit of the Committee? To your explanation of what has happened on that specific day of the incident, Mr Mbane? MR J MBANE: That I am not happy about. Because thereafter, I divorced my wife because of this incident. I parted with my wife and children. This could have been avoided. They could not have been shot, because they knew where these people were staying. They had staged a fly-over and I was dressed in a white cap and they circled the place. And these boys wanted to shoot at them. They knew where these people were residing. They had enough chance to come and arrest us and avoid all this. They flew over the area for quite a long time, many a time. Thus, I say that this could have been avoided. It is just that they had decided that they were going to kill them. They had just told themselves that these people had to be killed. Thus I say that all this would have been avoided and these children would have been alive today. ADV J MOSES: Mr Chairman, I thank you and members of the Committee. CHAIRPERSON: MR HUGO: MR CHAIRPERSON: HEARING ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION 04.02.98 - DAY 2 CHAIRPERSON Right. Are we ready to commence with cross-examination? MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON What is your view Ms Patel? MS PATEL Learned Chairperson I think it would be more convenient if the applicants went because a lot of what I had covered with the witness was indeed covered in his evidence-in-chief, so I would prefer that the applicants proceed. MR BOOYENS JIMMY MBANE (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Mr Mbane, if we can first just briefly refer to your background. Would I be correct if I summarised it thus - that you were an enthusiastic and very loyal supporter of the ANC in the days when you went to Rhodesia and you went for training in various different countries. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And in fact at the stage of your arrest in Kimberly you were as enthusiastic a supporter of the ANC. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Now, how long after your arrest in Kimberly did you start giving information to the Security Forces? MR J MBANE: It took me two to three days. MR BOOYENS: And then you started, without holding anything back, you started giving information to the Security Forces? MR J MBANE: I told them everything that I knew. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: So after two to three days, there was no need for any duress, anything of that nature anymore. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: They were torturing me, they were choking me, they were intimidating me. Each and every method that they were using was applied on me. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: Yes, I told them everything. CHAIRPERSON: Is that correct? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: So, did you hold certain things back? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And did you, throughout your career, never tell them about that information? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And those things that you held back are important things? MR J MBANE: Yes, they are important. MR BOOYENS: Now, you had been a member of the, if I say a member of the South African Police, I use it in the broad sense of the word, I am talking about as an Askari or a collaborator of the police for how many years? MR J MBANE: I started in 1984 until 1992. MR BOOYENS: Eight years. And throughout those eight years you never told the South African Police that you were working for, everything and you withheld certain important information from them. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Well you had information that you said would have been important to the police, not so? That would have improved the working relationship if you in fact opened up and told them everything you knew, volunteered it. MR J MBANE: I want to say Mr Chairperson, in that situation they were only torturing people, so I realised that if I can tell them, they are going to torture me again, because once before they have broken my jaw... MR BOOYENS: Mr Mbane, are you seriously suggesting that if after six years you went to Mr de Kock and you say, you know when I was trained in Russia XYZ or when I was in Zambia XYZ happened, that they would torture you then. Is that what you are suggesting? I just want to make sure we understand each other. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Oh, I see. So because you were afraid after six years of loyal service to the police, you pulled the trigger a number of times on their behalf, that you would still be tortured and treated badly by them if you came out with additional information which was important to the police? MR J MBANE: I would like to clarify this to the Commission. This is how we were working. If you can give me permission to clarify this. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: In that place we were working like prisoners of war. They were torturing us on a daily basis. They would take us to the shooting range and pretend that they were going to shoot us. That is the manner in which we were being treated. We were not working like an ordinary policeman. MR BOOYENS: Well perhaps I should ask you this: did you still have, notwithstanding the fact that you were a member of Vlakplaas, did you still feel a certain loyalty to the ANC? MR J MBANE: Yes, I am still loyal to the ANC. MR BOOYENS: I am talking about not now. I am talking about the eight years you were at Vlakplaas. Were you still loyal to the ANC? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: So, in fact you were an extremely involuntary member of Vlakplaas. Is that right? MR J MBANE: Yes, I can say I was also working for Vlakplaas. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: In fact, would I be correct if I said you hated working at Vlakplaas? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And did you feel the things that you were forced to do at Vlakplaas were wrong? You were in fact fighting against the very people you were loyal to. MR J MBANE: I could see that all those things were not right. MR BOOYENS: Yes, and you were in fact being forced to fight the people that you were loyal to? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: So you were really an ANC member forced into, figuratively speaking, the uniform of the enemy, and fighting for the enemy. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: During this eight years, did you supply any information to the ANC? Or to the UDF about the activities of Vlakplaas? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: No I never did. MR BOOYENS: Why not? MR J MBANE: If I would try such a thing, we were actually guarding each other against such things of leaking information. We would be eight in a kombi, each and every one of us assigned to keep an eye on a certain person, so if I would do such a thing, I would be in trouble. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: So you had opportunities to warn these people if you wanted to. Not so? You were alone with them. MR J MBANE: Most of the time I was with Eric Maluleka. We would only part when I was going to report to Bellingan and Liebenberg. I would... CHAIRPERSON: MR J MBANE: I was with Eric Maluleka 24 hours a day. We would only part when I was going to report to Bellingan and Liebenberg. I would leave Eric behind. MR BOOYENS: If you had an opportunity to warn these people that they were about to be led into an ambush, would you have done so? MR J MBANE: Yes, I would warn them, knowing very well that I am also putting my life in danger. MR BOOYENS: Notwithstanding the fact that your own life was in danger, you would warn them, is that what you are saying? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: If I had a chance to warn them, I would do so. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: I knew that all the things we were doing there at Vlakplaas were not right, because we were killing our brothers. If I had an option, I would warn these people, if I had an opportunity to do so. MR BOOYENS: Well, I am going to suggest to you that on any of the occasions, if you really wanted to warn them, that you left Maluleka alone and left with the motor vehicle to go and report to your superiors in the police force, you could have warned these people. You could have sent Maluleka on an errand, you could have done a variety of things if you wanted to warn these people. What you are telling this Commission now is simply not true. MR J MBANE: I would I dump Eric Maluleka if I wanted to warn these people? How would I do that? MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: If I had that type of an opportunity, I would do that. MR BOOYENS: You could have called one of them aside and in less than thirty seconds, have warned him. Not so? MR J MBANE: What would happen to my life...what would happen to my safety if I would do such a thing? MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: I would like to...if you could please give me permission to clarify this point again. MR BOOYENS: No, you tell us. I was never a member of Vlakplaas. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: It was just the same. Life is the same. MR BOOYENS: Now, you came down to Cape Town...in January. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Just dealing with your background slightly further before that, you are an experienced witness. Is that correct? You have testified in a number of cases? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: You testified against Mr Patrick Lekota in the Delmas trial. Is that right? MR J MBANE: That is so. MR BOOYENS: You testified in Natal in the trial of Tuso Tshika and four others, is that correct? As Mr X? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Yes. But you have testified many times as Mr X. Is that right? MR J MBANE: That is so. MR BOOYENS: You have testified against your erstwhile Comrades, and gave testimony to the best of your ability to get them into jail for as long as possible. Is that right? MR J MBANE: That is so. MR BOOYENS: Tried never to make any mistakes. MR J MBANE: That is correct. MR BOOYENS: Did it worry you to testify against your erstwhile Comrades? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Yes, you have told us that. So, Mr Mbane, you knew the importance of telling the investigators when you made your statements, everything making full and comprehensive statements. Is that correct? When you start preparing for a trial, right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And obviously you knew the importance thereof to make sure that your statement that would go the Prosecutor in those trials that you testified, would be comprehensive, full and free of mistakes to make sure that they lead your evidence the correct way. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: Correct. MR BOOYENS: So you were fully aware all along that it is very important what you say in your witness statement? That right? MR J MBANE: Correct. MR BOOYENS: When in January did you come down to Cape Town? MR J MBANE: It was at the beginning of January. MR BOOYENS: Early January, in other words. MR J MBANE: Yes. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: Correct. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Did he tell you they were dangerous, he was scared of them? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: He was scared for his life. Is that right? MR J MBANE: That is so. That is why he ran away. MR BOOYENS: And then you and Eric Maluleka were instructed to try and infiltrate. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: Can you please repeat your question, Sir? MR BOOYENS: Well, when you infiltrated, you were going to tell them that you had been trained outside the country, all those things were true. You were trained outside the country, the lie was that you were not now going in as a supporter of the organisation, but in fact to spy on them. Is that right? MR J MBANE: Yes, that is true. MR BOOYENS: Now, as you went in, what exactly were your instructions. What were you going to do? MR J MBANE: The instruction that was given to me was that I was told that these people were destabilising here in Cape Town and they have trained. So we had to infiltrate them and see how much ammunition did they have. MR BOOYENS: So this...so was there a group in existence, according to your information? MR J MBANE: Can you please repeat the question? MR BOOYENS: What you were supposed to infiltrate, was there a group in existence, a certain group of people that were supposed to be destabilising and to have been trained and so on. Is that right? MR BOOYENS: A group, as the term was used in those days, a group of terrorists or subversives or whatever you were supposed to call them. Was that what you were supposed to infiltrate? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Now what other information did you have about the group? How big was it? MR J MBANE: There were four people. MR BOOYENS: Was that information that you went in with - that there were four of them? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Where did that information emanate from? MR J MBANE: I got that information in Koeberg. MR BOOYENS: From who? MR J MBANE: It was Liebenberg who was giving us instructions because he is originally from Cape Town, and Bellingan was also there. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: That was the sum total of your instructions? MR J MBANE: That was the instructions. MR BOOYENS: Did you have names? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Were they MK names...or if you say nicknames. MR J MBANE: Maybe it was their pseudonyms. MR BOOYENS: Very well. CHAIRPERSON: Were you shown photos of all four of these people? MR J MBANE: Yes, each and every photo had a name behind. CHAIRPERSON: Was this by Captain Liebenberg? He had photos of these people and he knew their names. MR J MBANE: We were given photos and we were instructed to identify them. These photos had their names at the back. Liebenberg gave us those photos. CHAIRPERSON: Was that Captain Liebenberg? MR J MBANE: He was still a Lieutenant at the time. MR BOOYENS: And did he give you addresses as well? MR J MBANE: He just gave us the name of the place where they were and he told us what to do. MR BOOYENS: Well, perhaps we can just get more clarity than just a place. Is that a place for example in a section, or they were gathering at a certain shop or at a certain house. What do you mean with the word place? MR J MBANE: They said to us that we must go and ask the chief in that area, because we must first consult the chief and ask permission. The chief would take us to those people. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: So, you went to the Chief? MR J MBANE: Yes, I went to him. MR BOOYENS: And you introduced yourself as a returned exile? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And you said to the Chief that you had to make contact with these four people? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Giving their names? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And how was contact then established? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: All four of them came? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Now, your primary task was to obtain information about these people, right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: So you started establishing as much about them as you could, as soon as possible? MR J MBANE: Yes, but it took me some time to exactly know what kind of people they were. MR BOOYENS: Yes, no I accept that. You found out pretty quickly that they were completely untrained. MR J MBANE: I said it took me some time to know that they were untrained. I might be two or three days or so. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And in fact, it appeared that the information about these four men was wrong. Is that right? MR J MBANE: Which people are you referring to? Who was saying these things about them? MR BOOYENS: Well, you told us that Liebenberg gave you information that they were trained, they were posing a threat, they were destabilising the situation and so on and you established within three or four days that that information was wrong. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: So you were really dealing with four completely innocent people? Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Untrained, not dangerous, what were they really? If anything, were they just ordinary youths from the township, you could have picked any four. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: So you could have picked any four youths from that township and they would have been the same as these four men. Is that what you are saying? MR J MBANE: CHAIRPERSON: MR J MBANE: At that time they might be in the age group of 18 or 20 - in their late teens. MR BOOYENS: I think at my age one is justified in referring to them as youths, my Lord. So four basically random youths, completely innocent, not posing a threat to anybody, and you never established that they were involved in any illegal activities, threatening the security of the State. Is that correct? In those early days. Is that right? MR J MBANE: They were harmless, Sir. MR BOOYENS: Yes. Completely harmless, they posed no threat whatsoever to anybody. Not even to the then government of the country. They posed no threat. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Now, Mr Mbane, they were so inexperienced, that it would have been no problem for you to...and it had never been a problem for you...to report back to your handlers, is that right? MR J MBANE: I would like to respond to your question properly. On the second or third day whilst we were there, this Chief Yamile came to us and said to me some boy from exile has a problem with his AK47. And then I told him he must bring this man to me and when he got there he is on good terms with this group. He came with his AK47 rifle and we realised that it was not automatic, but only shooting single shots. We fixed this for him and when we asked him about his background, he said that he was locally trained and he was in good terms with these boys, and thereafter I went back to my commanders to report about this incident of this AK that we repaired, and the boy concerned, and this is where the whole thing started. I hope you understand clearly what I am trying to say. MR BOOYENS: When you established that these people were completely innocent and no threat to anybody, did you report that to Liebenberg? MR J MBANE: As I said, I stayed two to three days with these people until Rasta came, bringing his rifle and only thereafter I reported back to say that there is somebody who brought an AK47 rifle. CHAIRPERSON: Did you report that these other four boys were harmless youngsters from the township who had no training? MR J MBANE: I reported this after the arrival of the young man with the AK47 rifle. MS KHAMPEPE: But did you advise Mr Liebenberg and Mr Bellingan that the youngsters were harmless and were not trained and did not have any weapons? MR J MBANE: I reported after the arrival of this gentleman with the AK47, that was my first report to my commanders your Honour. CHAIRPERSON: Will you answer the question ! MS KHAMPEPE: What was the content of your report? MR J MBANE: CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell them that the other four had no weapons? MR J MBANE: Yes, I told them. MR BOOYENS: And did you also tell them, look these other four people that you sent me in to make contact with are completely harmless, they are not a threat to anybody? MR J MBANE: Yes, I told them. MR BOOYENS: You told them that the information that these people were destabilising the situation was, must be completely wrong. MR J MBANE: Yes, I told them. MR BOOYENS: And that was told to Mr Bellingan as well? MR J MBANE: Yes, I told him because he was my commander. MR BOOYENS: When is the first time that you have mentioned that fact that you told Mr Bellingan and Mr Liebenberg that these people were completely harmless? MR J MBANE: I think I was already four days in that area, I reported after four days or so. MR BOOYENS: The question is: when did you tell anybody connected to this Commission for the first time that you told Mr Bellingan and Mr Liebenberg that these people were harmless, untrained and the information was completely wrong. Is this the first time that you are telling the Commission about this now, or have you told somebody before? MR J MBANE: Yes, there is somebody I told at an earlier day. MR BOOYENS: Who did you tell? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Are they people attached to the Truth Commission? MR J MBANE: No, not in this branch. They came to my house and they took me to Johannesburg. MR BOOYENS: Oh, are you talking about the fact that you - are those the people who you made your statement to in Johannesburg? MS KHAMPEPE: Can I, Mr Booyens, for the sake of completeness, just find out from Mr Mbane. The report that you are referring to, that you made to Mr Liebenberg and Mr Bellingan, was this the telephonic report that you refer to in your evidence-in-chief yesterday? MR J MBANE: CHAIRPERSON: MR J MBANE: That is when I met them face to face, then I would report to them. ADV MOTATA: Would it be the same day, say you make a telephone call, did you on the same day meet them wherever you met them? After you had made the telephone call? MR J MBANE: On the same day, we met on the same day. MR BOOYENS: And on that same day, in any event, that is when you told Liebenberg and Bellingan about the fact that they were completely on the wrong track with these four people, they were nobodies. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And the fact that you told Bellingan and Liebenberg that, you reported to the investigators from the Truth Commission in Johannesburg, the people who took your statement. Is that right? MR J MBANE: Yes, I did so. MR BOOYENS: Where does that appear in your statement? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: I am saying his mispelled name appears only in one paragraph in this whole 59 paragraphs that I have got. And I will tell you now where that is. CHAIRPERSON: I think when you say a few others - you mentioned De Kock as being there with Liebenberg. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Oh please! You signed the statement, it was sworn. Right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: You are an experienced witness. Right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: You know the importance of witness statements. Right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: You confirmed the correctness of the statement before you took the oath. MR J MBANE: I showed them several mistakes that appear on it. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: Yes, I told them. CHAIRPERSON: MR J MBANE: Your Honour, these people took me to Johannesburg and I spent a day with them writing the statement and taking down. And we had a dispute about the statement and I came down to Cape Town and made another statement under oath. CHAIRPERSON: So you have it with you? MR J MBANE: Yes I have it with me. MR BOOYENS: MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mbane is that a statement that was made by one of the statement takers in Johannesburg? MR J MBANE: The person who signed this statement...the Commissioner of Oaths is Jasmine America and it was taken by Mr Zenzile Khoisan. Thus I am surprised why this statement was not given in because I made it here in Cape Town and I still have it in my possession, the copy thereof. MS KHAMPEPE: When was that statement taken from you? MR J MBANE: It was on the 17th November 1997. MS KHAMPEPE: Here in Cape Town? MR J MBANE: MS KHAMPEPE: It was after you had attested to the document we are using? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: With respect, Ms Khampepe, I think he said that statement was made on 17 September, I think there may be a misunderstanding. The statement to Mr Khoisan was apparently made on the 17th September, so that statement was made even before he testified and... JUDGE MILLER: Perhaps if we could get clarification on this. Mr Mbane, you say that you made a statement to Mr Khoisan. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: JUDGE MILLER: When did you make that statement? MR J MBANE: I made it on the 17th November 1997 when I realised that there were some irregularities and mistakes on the previous statement. JUDGE MILLER: Was that statement that you made on 17th November reduced to writing and was it made in the form of an affidavit or not? MR J MBANE: JUDGE MILLER: Was it sworn to as an affidavit or not? MR J MBANE: It was under oath. ADV J MOSES: My Lord, members of the Committee, I must apologise. I have not received proper instructions with regard to this. I have been confronted while my client was already under oath with a statement which purported to be another, with a heading of Affidavit of Xola Frank Mbane. Now there seemed to be initials on the pages. There is no signature above the name on the last page thereof, there is no signature above the name of Xola Frank Mbane, and my problem was that I, since my client was already under oath and examination in chief had already, was already finished, I could not take any proper instructions because I was not aware whether this in fact, whether it amounts to an affidavit, what the statement is and where did it come from. CHAIRPERSON: I just want to be quite clear about this. You consulted with your client about statements he had made. There were two, and are you telling us that he did not once mention to you that he had in his possession a statement that he had made on 17th November of last year, that he never told you about that? ADV J MOSES: My Lord, the only statements which I knew about was the incompleted statement. I was not aware of this. CHAIRPERSON: ADV J MOSES: He has produced it since he has received it from Mr Zenzile. CHAIRPERSON: Does he say that he received this morning? ADV J MOSES: CHAIRPERSON: He got it from who? MS KHAMPEPE: Ms Patel, were you aware that Mr Mbane had made a statement to one of the investigating officers as late as November last year? MS R PATEL: If I may place on record, I know that before I had consulted with Mr Mbane, he had spoken to Mr Khoisan before then. But regarding the statement, I have no knowledge. CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr Khoisan never tell you he had taken this statement, and that he had a copy of it? MS R PATEL: At some stage, he had said that there was a copy of a statement. I requested that and unfortunately it was never handed to me. CHAIRPERSON: But it was handed to the witness? Well, some time after yesterday. MS R PATEL: JUDGE MILLER: MR BOOYENS: I would most certainly have an objection. Once again I want to place it on record that I am not suggesting my learned friend would do anything improper, or that my learned friend was involved in anything improper, but there is no personal reflection on him, but I think it will be improper for him at this stage to consult, and I would certainly have an objection. CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moses have you any objection to that statement being returned to Mr Khoisan and copies being made available for everybody? ADV J MOSES: My Lord, I can have no objection. My only problem and I must concede to the point made by my colleague on behalf of the first applicant. CHAIRPERSON: I understood your client to have said he swore to it. ADV J MOSES: That is my predicament, my Lord, because I can tell you nothing. CHAIRPERSON: But do you have any objection to it being returned and copies made for everyone? ADV J MOSES: It has now come to the fore, my Lord. It will have to be produced. CHAIRPERSON: MR BOOYENS: May we see your Lordship in chambers then as soon as we... CHAIRPERSON: Yes. HEARING ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, have you all now been given copies of this affidavit? MR BOOYENS: I have now been given a copy of the additional affidavit, my Lord. Obviously it has been given to me about five minutes back, but in order not to waste any further time, I would prefer to carry on with cross examination. CHAIRPERSON: If anyone wants to see it, I have the original signed. MR BOOYENS: I accept that I have been given a true copy of the original, my Lord. JIMMY MBANE (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS (cont) Mr Mbane, this further statement that you say you made on 17th November, how did it happen that you made this statement? What happened? Tell us about that please. MR J MBANE: What made me to make this statement is because the person who was enquiring was interested solely on the Guguletu matter, thus I gave a statement. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And, it was your intention at that stage to give as full details as possible in that statement. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: The statement takers, if you look clearly on this statement you can see that there was a communication breakdown because they were talking in Tsetswana and I was Xhosa speaking and the treatment that they gave me was not appropriate, so there was disagreement all the time between us, myself and the statement takers. MR BOOYENS: Mr Mbane, you speak fairly good English, because I have noticed a few times you have actually answered questions before they were translated for you. Not so? MR J MBANE: Yes, I do, I try. MR BOOYENS: And when this statement was taken, did you read it? I am talking about the Johannesburg statement. MR J MBANE: I read it, but not all of it, because I had my own things to do. I was in a hurry. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by the second one? MR J MBANE: In Gauteng, there were two statements that were taken down. MR BOOYENS: Just look at this statement...is this...where is that second Gauteng statement? Have you got that in your possession? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: This statement I made it here in Cape Town and I thought about it only this morning and I enquired about and that is when it was handed to me. The copy thereof. MR BOOYENS: No, but I understood you to say in a question to the Honourable Chairman that you made two statements in Gauteng. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Now that second statement is missing. Or is the second statement the one from which you have been giving evidence? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: So you have been giving evidence from the second statement, when Ms Berlin led your evidence from your statement, this is the second Gauteng statement, the correct one? MR J MBANE: She was reading from the second one. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: If you can notice on his statement there are some things that I scratched out, that I indicated were wrong. MR BOOYENS: Yes, and you were led about that, we all heard about that. What I want to know from you is apart from those mistakes that were rectified in your evidence in chief, you did not deem it necessary to point out to them that there were other things, and additional information. Is that right? Why not? MR J MBANE: That never came to my mind. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: There is no explanation to that, but the bottom line is that I was with Belletjies in the Cape Town operation. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: It appears on paragraph number 7. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Do you understand the question? Well then answer it. ADV J MOSES: My Lord, I need to intervene here. In paragraph 9 mention is made that: "Throughout this whole process I was reporting to Liebenberg and Sgt Bellingan. Together we strategised about how to deal with these Comrades." MR BOOYENS: One of the most important aspects of this whole operation was that you reported to Bellingan and to Liebenberg that these...four of these people were innocent township youths that were not posing a threat to anybody. That was very, very important. Not so? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: In fact, because what you are really trying to say to us is that knowing full well they were dealing with innocents, these people deliberately set these innocent youths up with the purpose of killing them. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Now, who assisted you in this Cape Town statement, this November statement? MR J MBANE: Nobody assisted me. MR BOOYENS: Well, did you make the statement to Mr Khoisan? MR J MBANE: He was writing down what ever I was saying. He was writing all that I said and nothing else. MR BOOYENS: And can I take it that Mr Khoisan was told that the whole...that these people actually plotted to murder innocents. You told him that they were no threat to anybody, that they were innocent youths, can I take it that you told him that? MR J MBANE: I told him that and he wrote that down. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Then he would have wrote down also that these youths were innocent youngsters who posed no threat, and notwithstanding that fact, they decided that they wanted to murder them. Is that right? MR J MBANE: I said to him in this group there was only one person who was locally trained. The rest were not trained. It was only Rasta. The others were trained by us. And whatever I told him is right in front of me. ADV C BOOYENS: Okay, Mr Mbane. So did you not tell Mr Khoisan that apart from dealing with the training, did you not tell him that they were just innocent youths that really posed no threat - they could have been any four youths from the township. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: After you infiltrated in Cape Town, the group initially, did you return to Vlakplaas at the end of January? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: That I do not recall, as to when did he come here. But what I know is that we were here in January. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: The vehicle, the kombi you came down with, did that have false panels in which the arms were hidden? MR J MBANE: Most of the vehicles had false panels. MR BOOYENS: Did this one have false panels? MR J MBANE: That I cannot remember, but most of our cars used false registration numbers. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Now, if the court will just bear with me. I want you to look at paragraph 26 of your statement, your Johannesburg statement. Read it. MR J MBANE: Please read it for me. MR BOOYENS: MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mbane, do you need assistance with what is in paragraph 26. Do you want it to be translated to you? MR J MBANE: Yes, please. MS KHAMPEPE: MR BOOYENS: "After having assisted the squatters to fight the Witdoeke, we phoned our Vlakplaas squad and were told to remain there for some time. The following week, myself and Thabiso had to report to Vlakplaas to fetch materials and obtain instructions. I was then joined by Eric Sifadi (and you corrected that in your evidence in chief to Maluleka) and we were given weapons to train those people from Khayelitsha. The kombi we were using at that time was driven by Mbelo, one of the police from Vlakplaas." Do you now understand what is written in this statement? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: I am talking about the fact that you said that you reported to Vlakplaas again, after you had joined the fight against the Witdoeke. MR J MBANE: I think there was a mistake there. I overlooked it. I got the ammunition here in Cape Town, not in Vlakplaas. MR BOOYENS: Surely your legal team have gone with you through your statement before you testified yesterday? Because you were actually being led on it. MR J MBANE: Yes, it is so. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: I never went back to Vlakplaas. I stayed here two months, and this happened in March, after having stayed here for two months. And thereafter I went back, after the completion of the mission. I arrived here in January and left only in March. MR BOOYENS: These three informers that you were involved with the death of. Did you tell Mr Bellingan that you had killed three police informers? MR J MBANE: Yes, I told him. I told him at the Parade, where we met. MR BOOYENS: How many times did you tell him that you had killed police informers? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And notwithstanding that fact, they carried on sending informers to a group that was well infiltrated by two security policemen. MR J MBANE: Yes, they continued sending informers. MR BOOYENS: Notwithstanding the fact that you and Maluleka were there on the ground directing operations and reporting to them regularly. MR J MBANE: They continued. MR BOOYENS: And were these informers specifically sent to infiltrate your group? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: All three of them? MR J MBANE: Yes, all three of them. MR BOOYENS: Now, how long before the actual operation did the first informer, Lizo, come in? MR J MBANE: We were still busy training them. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: It might have been a week or two or three. MR BOOYENS: After you infiltrated this group? Or before the operation? MR J MBANE: JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Booyens. Was it one, two or three weeks after he infiltrated? MR BOOYENS: CHAIRPERSON: Well, your question was fairly clear - that how much time before the operation. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: It was not after a long time, but it was consecutive. MR BOOYENS: And the same goes for the third one? MR J MBANE: The third one as well. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: Correct. MR BOOYENS: You were actually in charge of this group by then. Is that right? MR J MBANE: Correct. MR BOOYENS: Now, why...who dealt with the interrogation of these informers? MR J MBANE: It myself, Eric and Rastaman. We were all in the group. MR BOOYENS: And who searched them? MR J MBANE: We would choose anyone to do the job. There was no specific person responsible for searching them. MR BOOYENS: But, did you suspect that these people were police informers? MR J MBANE: The people who knew them, the people from Cape Town, they suspected these people. MR BOOYENS: And can you explain why it was necessary to sent people to infiltrate your group, further informers, because the logic of it escapes me. They knew exactly what your group was doing. You were reporting regularly. MR J MBANE: Liebenberg denied sending the informers to the unit. That is why I demanded a special meeting because why were they sending informers, knowing very well that we are already infiltrated the group. MR BOOYENS: You say Liebenberg denied sending the informers. And what did Bellingan say about it? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Oh, so you actually informed them that you were going to kill the informers if they sent further informers? Is that right? Was that after you killed Lizo? MR J MBANE: Correct. MR BOOYENS: And what was their action when you told them that you had killed their informers? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And the second and third informers, what was their reaction when you told them you had killed even more of their informers? MR J MBANE: CHAIRPERSON: Why was it putting your life in danger? MR J MBANE: The people in the unit would search these informers and they would get the tapes attached to their bodies and I was staying there with the people who depended solely on me. Especially if they found someone with a tape, they were depending on me on what to do with those people, therefore, I would tell them to kill those people. MR BOOYENS: How do you know that Liebenberg sent these informers? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: No, the question is how did you know it was Liebenberg who sent the informers. MR J MBANE: I think you can hear me. If we were here in Cape Town, we used to deal directly with Liebenberg. The only people who knew our whereabouts were Liebenberg and Bellingan. Those are the people that I was reporting to directly, Liebenberg and Bellingan. CHAIRPERSON: MR J MBANE: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: MR J MBANE: I thought that the only people who knew about us was Liebenberg and Bellingan. There was no-one else. MR BOOYENS: ADV J MOSES: My Lord, is Counsel now leading evidence on behalf of a witness? MR BOOYENS: CHAIRPERSON: MR BOOYENS: What is your comment about the fact that Liebenberg says that he never sent anybody. He told me that. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: What happened to the tape recorders? MR J MBANE: We destroyed them. MR BOOYENS: You said that Liebenberg and Bellingan were aware of your whereabouts. What was your whereabouts. Where were you? What was the address? MR J MBANE: There are no proper addresses in the squatter camps. We were just inside the shacks. MR BOOYENS: No, but you said they knew your whereabouts. How did they know your whereabouts? How did you tell them where you were if there are no addresses or if you were just inside the shacks? I seem to recall that this was an enormous squatter camp. MR J MBANE: It was a squatter camp. I made some contact with them. Even De Kock was also there. They requested me to wear a white cap and sit on top of the car and read a newspaper. They would come with a helicopter in that area, which they did when De Kock came down to Cape Town. They saw me sitting right on top of the car, reading a newspaper. It means they knew my whereabouts. MR BOOYENS: This is the first time we hear this evidence. Why is it not in any of your statements? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: Yes, I saw him yesterday. MR BOOYENS: And when did you see him before that, before yesterday? MR J MBANE: I was with him on Sunday, Sunday evening I was with him. MR BOOYENS: So you saw him on Sunday evening, you saw him yesterday. Did you see on Monday as well? MR J MBANE: Correct. MR BOOYENS: Why did you see Mr Khoisan? You had legal representatives appointed for you. MR J MBANE: It is because he is the only investigating officer that I know. MR BOOYENS: But what did you want to discuss with him to see him, Sunday, Monday, yesterday, this morning? What did you want to discuss with him? Did you see him this morning as well? MR J MBANE: I saw him today. MR BOOYENS: This morning, yes. So Sunday, Monday, yesterday, this morning. What did you want to discuss with Mr Khoisan? Why the necessity to speak to him all this time? MR J MBANE: He is the person who knows where I stay. He went to fetch me in the morning, and even from the airport. He is the one who fetched me. MR BOOYENS: Yes, okay. When did you arrive in Cape Town? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Very well. Now for what purpose did you see him on Monday. I can understand that he fetched you at the airport. Why did you see him on Monday? What did you want to discuss with him? MR J MBANE: He knows my place. He normally takes me from this office to my place. Even in the morning, he fetches me from my place to the TRC offices. MR C BOOYENS: Did you discuss the case with him? The evidence? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Why not? MR J MBANE: I talked to him today because of the affidavit. And I was actually asking him...I was requesting a copy of the affidavit that I made in November. So there is nothing else that we talk about. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: So this morning I requested him to bring me the affidavit. MR BOOYENS: Where did you say in Cape Town? In a hotel? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: ADV J MOSES: My Lord, does my learned friend mean on previous occasions or during... MR BOOYENS: Now. Now. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Why not? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Did you stay with Mr Khoisan in a hotel in Cape Town? Yes or no. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Why not? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Do you refuse to answer this question? Do you refuse to answer this question? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Do you refuse to answer the question whether now in Cape Town, from the time you arrived here, you stayed in a hotel with Mr Khoisan? MR J MBANE: CHAIRPERSON: MR J MBANE: I am not staying with him in a hotel. CHAIRPERSON: JUDGE MILLER: I think your answer was you are not staying in a hotel with him. The question was did you stay in a hotel with Mr Khoisan at any stage? Since your arrival at the airport on Sunday evening. MR J MBANE: I am not staying with him in a hotel. MR BOOYENS: You are not answering the question. MR J MBANE: I am not staying with him. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: All I am telling you is I am not staying with him and I never did before. MR BOOYENS: Okay, at long last we got an answer. Why were you so reluctant to answer that question? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: Yes, I had them with me. MR BOOYENS: As well as the Makarov and Tokarev, I think they were. And the hand grenades and the ammunition. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: So, right from the inception in January, you were able to arm your group quite well? Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Once again, the paragraph that I read to you earlier on, once again that is not paragraph 26 of your Johannesburg statement "I was then joined by Eric Maluleka nad we were given weapons to train those people for Khayelitsha." MR J MBANE: Can you please repeat the question, Sir. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: Can you please compose the question. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Very well. Now, when did you tell - did you at any stage tell these people that took your statement in Johannesburg that the statement they had taken from you was incorrect and it contained mistakes? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: The question is very simple. Do I understand you correctly that you told the people from Johannesburg that there were mistakes in this statement? At some stage. When they brought it to you to sign. Is that right? MR J MBANE: CHAIRPERSON: Was this the first or second statement? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Perhaps just to finish this aspect. You not only signed it, you also took the oath according to this, and confirmed that it was correct. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: I just wanted them to stay away from me. I just wanted them to leave me alone. ADV C BOOYENS: Why? MR J MBANE: They were just bothering me. They were irritating me. MR BOOYENS: How were they irritating you? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And in order to get rid of them, you were just prepared to swear to the correctness of anything. Is that what you are now saying? MR J MBANE: Yes, I just wanted to get rid of them. MR BOOYENS: May this be an appropriate time, my Lord? CHAIRPERSON: One last question. I am maybe confused about this. Did they take you up to Johannesburg to make a statement there? MR J MBANE: Yes, they took me to Johannesburg. CHAIRPERSON: And did they have to bring you back? MR J MBANE: Yes, they did that. CHAIRPERSON: MR J MBANE: HEARING ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION JIMMY MBANE (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: (cont) Mr Mbane, who is Colonel Pieters? MR J MBANE: He is one of - he is somebody I saw once here in Cape Town. MR BOOYENS: In what role? MR J MBANE: There was a time when we stayed with them just after we had arrived here. MR BOOYENS: You stayed with them. Doing what? Leave the statement, answer my questions. MR J MBANE: No, I stayed with them for a short while. MR BOOYENS: So Colonel Pieters is just somebody that you coincidentally got to know. MR J MBANE: We had just arrived at that time, when I met him. MR BOOYENS: Ja, but you had nothing else to do with him. MR J MBANE: There was nothing much between us. MR BOOYENS: Well, the something then that was between you, what was that? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Did you have anything to do with Pieters, did Pieters have anything to do with you? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: But the people who briefed you to infiltrate the Comrades were Bellingan and Liebenberg. Right? MR J MBANE: On our arrival in Cape Town, during our briefing, it seems that he was present as well. MR BOOYENS: What does that answer "it seems" mean? Seems from paragraph 4 of your statement, yes. What do you mean? Why do you answer the question like that? "It seems that he was present as well". What does that answer mean? Leave the statement alone Mr Mbane, and answer my questions. I can see you are reading. MR J MBANE: I think it seems he was there - which means he was there. MR BOOYENS: Doing what? MR J MBANE: On our, whenever you arrive at a new workplace, the staff meet you, the Colonels and Captains to brief you. MR BOOYENS: Did Pieters brief you to involve, to infiltrate this group? MR J MBANE: The main speaker there was Liebenberg. He was the one who even produced the photos. MR BOOYENS: Answer my question. Did Pieters have anything to do with the briefing - yes or no? MR J MBANE: I have said that the person who was talking was Liebenberg. MR BOOYENS: So Pieterse - is the answer that Pieterse had nothing to do with the briefing? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Why did you say different in your Cape Town statement, paragraph 4? MR J MBANE: As I have said the person who briefed us was Liebenberg. MR BOOYENS: Why did you say in paragraph 4 of your Cape Town statement: "We were briefed and tasked by Lieutenant Liebenberg, Sergeant Bellingan, Joe Coetzer and Colonel Pieters." MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Did you understand my question? MR J MBANE: Yes, I understood your question. MR BOOYENS: Do you want to attempt to answer it? Why did you say that in your statement? That Pieters briefed you? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: So, even in the Cape Town statement, there are now errors. Because Liebenberg - now Joe Coetzer, did Joe Coetzer brief you? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: Bellingan was our Commander from Vlakplaas. On our arrival, he was just told of the suspects, and he will tell us who will be in command, and then we will report to the person concerned. MR BOOYENS: Now, this chief that you met is Mr Myengeni? Is that correct? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Did you know Myangeni at all? Or Myengeni? MR J MBANE: I said I know Yamile. MR BOOYENS: The question is do you know Mr Myengeni. Mr Mbane, please listen to my questions and try to answer them. MR J MBANE: No, there is no such person. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: I am talking about Chief Yamile, not Chief Myengeni. I told you once before that there are wrong names used in this statement. Instead of Yamile, they wrote Myengeni. MR BOOYENS: Yes, I accept that. But I used the wrong name Myangeni during cross examination and I asked whether that was the Chief that you met, and you said yes. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Now, let us deal - what made you pick these four youngsters. Why them? You had their photographs and so on, but they were obviously not activists. Why did you carry on with them? MR J MBANE: I was following orders. MR BOOYENS: Very well. What was the purpose of training these people? MR J MBANE: For ammunition purposes, military purposes. MR BOOYENS Yes, but...no, they received military training, but what were they supposed to do? Why were the police wanting to train people that knew nothing? MR J MBANE: They are the right persons to answer that question, I was just following orders. They would be the ones to tell you, the police. MR BOOYENS: Because, obviously if I understand you correctly, the intention to attack the police vehicle only came from within the group, after you had finished training them. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: So, for no apparent reason the police wanted you to train a number of completely untrained people and make them far more dangerous than they were before. Is that what you are saying? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And you took over the complete training? In fact you expanded the group to nine. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: On whose instructions did you enlarge the group? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Did you inform your superiors that you were even training more people now that could attach the police? You were now having eight completely untrained ones that you were going to turn into fairly lethal enemies. You informed Bellingan and Liebenberg of that. MR J MBANE: Yes, I told them. MR BOOYENS: And they were happy about that? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: They never did. MR BOOYENS: Now...you then did say in one of your statements that you eventually - Mr de Kock came down and you reported to him that you had nine trained people. Is that right? MR J MBANE: Yes, he knew. MR BOOYENS: And, did you tell Mr de Kock that you had trained these people, that they knew nothing from the beginning your trained a bunch of complete rookies? MR J MBANE: I told him that there are people that I have trained and that they are nine in numbers. And they smoke dagga, and therefore I must buy them food and he gave me a box of dagga and money to give to them. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: So is the information about the informers that you killed, is correct in your Johannesburg statement? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: So is the information in your Johannesburg statement correct about the fact that you met the man who might have recognised you and that you killed him? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: They sent me papers to come to the Cape Town seven, so I am not sure whether I will be able to answer your question. MR BOOYENS: Have you gone through your full statement that you made in Johannesburg before you came into this Commission? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: That I am not aware of yet. As I have already said, what I am here for is the Guguletu 7 issue, and the papers that I received in order to appear in front of this Commission was to address specifically the Guguletu 7 issue, not everything that appears on that statement. MR BOOYENS: When did you receive the papers in connection with the Guguletu 7 issue? MR J MBANE: I received them somewhere in 1997. MR BOOYENS: Before last time when you came down to Cape Town? That was in November. MR J MBANE: I cannot recall, but sometime last year, because I had just come back from Zimbabwe and I found them at home. MR BOOYENS: Well did you have the Guguletu papers with you when you came down to Cape Town last year, for the hearing that was postponed. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Who was the first person that you mentioned to that the Johannesburg statement about the Guguletu 7 was incorrect? MR J MBANE: If it was not Fanie, it was Pule, but I just cannot recall all of them. MR BOOYENS: Fanie and Pule are Johannesburg people. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Yes. Who in Cape Town was the first person that you mentioned to that your Johannesburg statement was incorrect? MR J MBANE: The first person I told about this statement. It was Khoisan. MR BOOYENS: I see. And was that after you read your statement and realised there was something wrong with it? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Did you read it yourself? MR J MBANE: Yes, I read it. MR BOOYENS: So you had no problems reading English? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And why did you go to Mr Khoisan? Why not to my learned colleague, Ms Patel? She was the evidence leader. MR J MBANE: Khoisan is the one who came where I am staying and delivered the papers that were instructing me to appear here. I did not know Ms Patel. The person who delivered the papers was Khoisan. Nothing stated that I should contact Ms Patel. MR BOOYENS: But how did you know it was Mr Khoisan. I thought you were in Zimbabwe. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: When was the idea mooted for the first time about attacking this police kombi. We know this incident took place on a Monday. When was the idea mooted that you should attack this police kombi? MR J MBANE: It might have been four to five days before. MR BOOYENS: About Wednesday/Thursday, Tuesday / Wednesday or Thursday. The previous week. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And once this idea was raised, did you immediately report to your superiors. MR J MBANE: Yes, I told them the following day, but I did that after we had done our recognising. MR BOOYENS: Yes, and what was the reaction of the Vlakplaas people when you told them they were going to attack a police vehicle? MR J MBANE: They told me I must try and stop them. They told me in that same week that they had to go and attack those police. I tried to stop them. But when I realised that I could not stop them, I suggested that we must recognise the area and I went there first with Chris and we reported back to the crowd again. The following day, I instructed Chris to go and do the recognising, him and Maluleki, and in the meantime I went to report to my seniors to say the aim of this group. MR BOOYENS: So that must have been two days before the actual...one day... MR J MBANE: I do not recall these days, as this happened ten to eleven years ago. I cannot recall exactly the days. Please get me clearly on that matter. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: Please repeat your question. MR BOOYENS: If the plan was mooted about five or six days before the attack, four to five days before the attack and two days went by while you were, they were still doing reconnaissance, then it seems to me that it was one or two days before the actual attack when you told Vlakplaas that they were proceeding with the attack. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: We discussed this at night, and the following day we went to do the reconnaissance, me and Rasta. Therefrom we rested, but the following day I asked Maluleka and Rasta to go and do the reconnaissance and whilst they were away I went to check contact and they sent me to Seapoint where I got a room and in that room I found Belletjies and Liebenberg and explained to them what was happening. MR BOOYENS: What steps did you take to try and stop this attack? MR J MBANE: I suggested to them that we should start doing reconnaissance because we are not amateurs. So as to not land in a clumsy situation. And in that way, I was trying to stop them. MR BOOYENS: You were trying to stop them by planning the operation better. Is that what you are saying? Because you went to do a recon - said to them, you are not amateurs, is that how you tried to stop the attack on the police kombi? MR J MBANE: Yes, that is the means I used. MR BOOYENS: Now how does one stop an attack by actually getting yourself involved in the planning? MR J MBANE: Let me tell the Commission, I want to be given the opportunity by this Commission to explain exactly what happened, because you are asking me questions randomly. But I would like to tell you step by step the events as they happened. I am kindly requesting this Commission to give me that opportunity. MR BOOYENS: I think you must just answer my questions and you can make your speeches afterwards. How does it, by in going to do a recon, how do you actually try and stop an attack, because that is what you said you wanted to do? MR J MBANE: If I should not have done this reconnaissance, this would have not stopped the attack the following day, because our intention was to do the shooting the following day immediately after taking the decision. We discussed this thing overnight and their intentions to go and shoot the following day. MR BOOYENS: Oh, I see. Are you now talking about the group. Your group discussed it the previous night and they said they were going to attack the police the following day? And you stopped it in that way. Is that right? MR J MBANE: Yes, I stopped it that way. MR BOOYENS: Is the following what happened then. You stopped it that day, by saying to them we must first go and do a recon. Is that what you are saying? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And then the next day you went to do the recon and the day afterwards you sent Maluleka and the other man and you made contact with Vlakplaas in Seapoint. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And you then reported to Vlakplaas that you had stopped the attack, the planned attack? MR J MBANE: I told Liebenberg and Belletjies. MR BOOYENS: Yes, you told them that these people planned to attack the police vehicle and you had stopped them by suggesting you must first do a recon. Is that what you are trying to tell us? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Yes. And then, what was their reaction? MR J MBANE: They said I should just attempt to stop it, because they needed a chance to go and see the place as well. MR BOOYENS: Well, what attempts subsequent to that did you take to stop the attack? MR J MBANE: On the third day, I sent two more boys to go and do the reconnaissance. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: Then it means I was delaying the attack. MR BOOYENS: Now, this helicopter that you also told us about all of a sudden in your evidence in chief, and this sitting on the roof with a white cap and a newspapers and so on. When did that flight take place? MR J MBANE: It happened long before the planning of this operation. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: Yes, I was still training them. MR BOOYENS: Where was this place when you were sitting on the roof. In which township or squatter camp or wherever? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: But after Khayelitsha, you moved your place to Guguletu. Not so? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And your group was then based in Guguletu. Correct? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And did you again sit on the roof with a white cap reading a newspaper so that they could recognise the place from a helicopter once you were in Guguletu? MR J MBANE: No, I never did that again. MR BOOYENS: You were not requested to do that either? MR J MBANE: No, I was never instructed to do that. MR BOOYENS: So in fact the knowledge that they had earlier on about where this group might be would have served no purpose whatsoever in them trying to trace the group once the group had decided to attack the police. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: Please repeat your question. MR BOOYENS: Well, you gave this evidence obviously with the intention of suggesting to the court that the police, that now specifically Bellingan and Liebenberg, knew where the group was based. It was right at the end of your evidence in chief. Do you remember that? MR J MBANE: Yes, they knew. MR BOOYENS: But by the time the group had to attack the police station, you had moved from Khayelitsha to Guguletu. That information that had was outdated and not worth anything. MR J MBANE: Their intention was not to arrest us on that particular day when I was sitting on top of the car reading a newspaper with a cap on because on that particular day we were armed and they could see exactly where we were so they had enough chance to arrest them. They just wanted to do this evil thing that they did. MR BOOYENS: Oh, so are you really saying that on the day of the helicopter flight, not only were you sitting on the roof with a white cap, but the group were armed and they could see that the group was armed from the helicopter? Is that what you are saying? MR J MBANE: Your honour, I am not sure whether you understand me. What I am saying is that the time this helicopter was flying around, they knew that I was training these people and there were AK47 rifles and grenades. And they were quite fully aware of the situation. They should have just arrested them in the same night, because they flew over the area during the day, so they should have come in at night and arrested them. I am not sure whether you understand me on that. MR BOOYENS: Now, ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON: Where did you live in Guguletu? MR J MBANE: CHAIRPERSON: It was a shack settlement again. MR J MBANE: There was a house inside the yard, there was also a shack. CHAIRPERSON: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Did you give Bellingan and Liebenberg the address? Where the Comrades were staying? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: But you knew the addresses of everybody. Is that right? MR J MBANE: Can I please explain this to you Sir. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: What happened there - when I was recruiting those people, I had all their names, all their information. Belletjies...I told Shakes, I instructed Shakes to get all the information of these people. I only took their biographies and gave them to Bellingan and Liebenberg. MR BOOYENS: I am, well the group moved from - moved to Guguletu where there were addresses. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: So you knew because you were the leader of this band of men, you knew where they were staying. Is that right? MR J MBANE: CHAIRPERSON: Did they not also move and live with you at Guguletu. Did they remain in their homes? MR J MBANE: We left, both of us, we occupied two places in Guguletu. MR BOOYENS: I heard both of us, in my interpretation. Let me just make clear. All of you, you Eric and the whole group moved, or who moved to Guguletu? MR J MBANE: All the people who were in the group moved to Guguletu. MR BOOYENS: Now you had two addresses in Guguletu. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Please, are you seriously suggesting - well did you want to find out the addresses where you were staying. Obviously not so - that you can give that information to the police? MR J MBANE: As I have already told you, Bellingan and Liebenberg had the addresses, therefore I assumed that they knew. I gave them the addresses and the information concerning those young gentlemen and there were addresses included in that information. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: Let me try and explain to you. Just before I could train these people I asked for their personal information. I took them myself to Bellingan and Liebenberg, therefore they had the addresses. Even another group that came after that, I did the same thing. I took all their personal information, after that I assumed that they had the addresses, so for me it was not necessary to go on looking for the addresses. CHAIRPERSON: You have just told us the whole group moved to Guguletu. MR J MBANE: CHAIRPERSON: So you moved in to the home of one of them, whose address you had already given to Bellingan. Is that what you are saying? MR J MBANE: CHAIRPERSON: MR J MBANE: CHAIRPERSON: When did you go and reconnoitre the scene? Where the attack was to take place? What time of day. MR J MBANE: It was early in the morning because the bus would go at a quarter past seven. CHAIRPERSON: MR J MBANE: I just assumed that since I have given them the personal details of the people, they knew the addresses. MR BOOYENS: Thank you my Lord. MR J MBANE: That never crossed my mind. I am the person who actually failed to think about that. MR BOOYENS: And it never crossed the mind of Bellingan and Liebenberg either. To say to you where are these people based. Ask you for an address. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And I presume you also failed to tell them that the whole group had moved to Guguletu. MR J MBANE: I told them that we have moved and we were in Guguletu at that time. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Did you tell them which of the boys? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: You tell them, one of them, there were several of them staying in Guguletu, not so? Is that correct? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: ADV J MOSES: CHAIRPERSON: MR BOOYENS: Now, at that stage, your group consisted of nine, call them recruits, and you two, that is you and Maluleka. Is that right? MR J MBANE: When they started there were nine and the others were informers. They were shot and killed. The eighth one was a Mozambican guy who came to join us. MR BOOYENS: Shortly before the attack, your group consisted of nine people, and you and Eric Maluleka. That was your evidence in chief. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: We were nine, including myslef and Eric Maluleka. MR BOOYENS: Your evidence was that there were five of you and subsequently another four joined you. MS KHAMPEPE: ADV J MOSES: That was also the evidence in chief. MS KHAMPEPE: MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, my recollection is that there were four. Rasta joined and then another four joined them, but in any case that is not too serious because I can get the number nine somewhere else. MS KHAMPEPE: I can read if you want to. MR BOOYENS: So the group, was the group never bigger than seven recruits and you and Eric Maluleka? ADV J MOSES: With all due respect, that was never his evidence. His evidence, his evidence in chief was clearly that the group started out with nine and thereafter certain people were killed. And if my learned friend can recall, that at - when my client testified about the incident itself certain people were dropped, and he was requested to tell the Committee how many at which intervals or stages. His evidence was clear that at the time of the attack there were seven people and him and Eric included amounted to nine people in total. MR BOOYENS: I was talking shortly before the attack, how big the group was then. I knew he said that seven people took part in the attack, Mr Chairman. I am not talking about the time of the attack. ADV J MOSES: MR BOOYENS: Twenty four hours. Twenty four hours before the attack, how many members were in your group? MR J MBANE: We were nine. MR BOOYENS: Twelve hours before the attack, how many members were in your group? MR J MBANE: We were nine. MR BOOYENS: Does that include you and Maluleka? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Did you, did this group, excluding you and Maluleka, at any stage consist of nine members? MR J MBANE: Yes there were nine before including the informers who wanted to join the group. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: I was trying to reduce the number of arms in the kombi. So that others can go out and get other arms. I was not aware that those people were going to be shot. That was the reason. ADV C BOOYENS: Okay, you were unaware that the people were going to be shot. MR J MBANE: Anything can happen in that kind of operation. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: I wanted that the other people should go to the bush and go and fetch the other weapons, those that were already buried there. The only people who went away unarmed were those people who were supposed to fetch the arms in the bush. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: Those were the people to alight first from the vehicle. They were going to fetch the arms. We were using different points. They were alighting from the vehicle at different points so then we wanted to reduce the number of arms in the vehicle. MR BOOYENS: Why? MR J MBANE: That was our plan. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: I was not the only one who was making that decision, we discussed together with the commanders and we reached a decision. We agreed that we are not going to the same point. MR BOOYENS: Which commanders did you discuss it with? I thought you were in command. MR J MBANE: The three people in charge. I was the first in charge and another one second in charge and Rasta was the third in charge. MR BOOYENS: So you were quite enthusiastic about this plan. Is that right? MR J MBANE: That was our decision. All of us took this decision. MR BOOYENS: Were you enthusiastic about this plan of ambushing this police kombi? MR J MBANE: Can you please repeat the question? What do you mean about being enthusiastic? MR BOOYENS: You wanted to do it. MR J MBANE: CHAIRPERSON: MR J MBANE: I thought they were going to ambush the kombi and arrest these people. Not to kill them. MR BOOYENS: Sorry, is your Lordship finished? Why did you think that? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: It was just your own idea. MR J MBANE: I was happy because I thought they were going to arrest these people and I had been in Cape Town for quite a long time. I was happy that it was time for me to go back home. MR BOOYENS: So, did you and Bellingan and the others plan the operation or did only you and Maluleka and Rasta plan the operation. Or did some of the ideas that you put in, did that come from Bellingan? Or was it only Rasta and Maluleka? MR J MBANE: I last saw Bellingan when I was showing him the place where the whole thing would take place. It was the last time I saw Bellingan. MR BOOYENS: Now when was that? MR J MBANE: The day before the incident. MR BOOYENS: Sunday. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: By then your plans had been made: how the attack was going to take place. Is that right? MR J MBANE: With whom. Can you please repeat the question. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And did you inform Bellingan exactly what you were going to do? MR J MBANE: I told him. MR BOOYENS: Did you tell him you were going to bury some firearms in the bush? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Why not? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: During our plan, the idea of burying these guns was not decided upon. MR BOOYENS: So that was a last minute change of plan? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: No, I never tried to do that. MR BOOYENS: Why not? MR J MBANE: There was minimum time. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: We decided this at night to put these firearms there and I was with Belletjies that morning. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Your group planned to attack the police kombi. That police kombi was going to come through there. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: As far as you knew that kombi was still going to be there the next morning. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And if your plan came off, your group were going to fire and shoot at policemen. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And your group might kill those policemen. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: You did nothing at all to try and safeguard those other policemen by dropping the people off at the wrong points or something. As far as you were concerned, you were setting them up for a real ambush where they could kill the policemen. Is that right? MR J MBANE: That is why I went to tell Liebenberg and Belletjies well before time. MR BOOYENS: And apart from the hiding of the firearms, did you give them your full plan how you were going to ambush the people? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: So when was the final plan how your group was going to ambush the police kombi made? Was that only made on the Sunday night? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Was it then decided that you would drop people at various points. They would get up at various points, etc. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Now, did you drop some of the...the police kombi that you were supposed to ambush was coming across the bridge over the N2. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Now, did you drop off some of your men there? Because you travelled in the direction of the bridge I think... MR J MBANE: Yes, I dropped them there. MR BOOYENS: Those were the ones with the pistols. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Was this also something that you decided upon on Sunday night? MR J MBANE: Everything was finalised on Sunday night. MR BOOYENS: So your earlier statement that the plans for the ambush were finalised before you spoke to Bellingan the previous days was incorrect. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: I told you honour that I told Bellingan and Belletjies and I showed them the spot where everything was supposed to take place. So obviously they were aware of the attack. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: Everybody was going to get off and occupy their specified positions. MR BOOYENS: Including you and Maluleka? MR J MBANE: Yes, including us. But we knew that we were to be arrested. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: You see my problem with your statement here is simply the following. That you knew you were going to be arrested. But people were dropped in various points. How were the police to know who to arrest? MR J MBANE: They have been lying in a wait a long time. They knew the time that it was going to happen between 7:00 and a quarter past. They were deployed well on time because when I went past I saw the kombi parked there. MR BOOYENS: So, you saw a kombi parked there. Was that the only indication you saw of police presence? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Is that right? MR J MBANE: The only thing I knew is that they might be deployed all over the area. I expect that. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: I knew that it was going to be like that. I saw our kombi there and I just told myself that they must be all over the place. MR BOOYENS: Were you not told to try and keep these people in the kombi and ride into the crossing and that they would overwhelm you there and the rest of the people? MR J MBANE: Yes, they told me that. But when decisions were taken at the last minute, what was I expected to do? MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: The last minute arrangements of hiding the firearms were done by the whole group and they knew the area more than me and they decided on the dropping points as well. MR BOOYENS: Mr Mbane, just listen to my question. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Well, did he tell you to try and keep them all in the kombi until you were in the intersection? ADV J MOSES: Now it seems that it was thereafter transformed into a question. I have heard now out of the translation that the witness has now even picked that up also and asked him whether that was in fact a statement or a question. MR BOOYENS; ADV J MOSES: MR BOOYENS: Did Bellingan tell you that you must try to keep the people in the kombi. All of them.? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: It might have been 250 metres away. MR BOOYENS: Why drop them so far from the weapons? MR J MBANE: That was according to the plan. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: We decided on that as a group. MR BOOYENS: That you are going to let them walk 250 paces to go and pick up their arms when they were going to ambush the police kombi. MR J MBANE: That was our decision. CHAIRPERSON: MR BOOYENS: The place where the firearms were buried, was it next to the road? MR J MBANE: It was in the bush. And they were going to walk into the bush and the spot we were going to attack was 250 metres away from that point. If you say that I dropped them far, where would you suggest I drop them? MR BOOYENS: How far was the point where the arms were buried from the road? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: It was right inside the bush and they had to use the shortest route, because they knew that area. That is the first group, they knew where to find them. MR BOOYENS: Okay. You thereafter proceeded and dropped the next group of people in the direction of the bridge and you made a u-turn at the bridge. Is that correct. MR J MBANE: I dropped the other three. When you say on the bridge, I am pretty confused. I say I dropped the first lot and then I dropped the other three 100 metres away and then I dropped another one and the remaining three went to make a u-turn and when we came around there was already firing. MR BOOYENS: Okay. The first sound you heard was the sound like the explosion of a hand grenade. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: Yes, it sounded like a grenade explosion. MR BOOYENS: Thereafter did you hear firing? MR J MBANE: Thereafter there was other firing. MR BOOYENS: Gun fire? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Did you then proceed into the intersection? MR J MBANE: No, I went on the pavement and I jumped out the car and when I attempted to run I heard some shots and laid flat on my tummy. MR BOOYENS: No, but did you hit the pavement in the intersection, in the crossing or close to the crossing? MR J MBANE: Yes, very near to it. MR BOOYENS: And you then heard gun fire? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: You took cover. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Inside the kombi? MR J MBANE: I said to you I hit the pavement and jumped out the vehicle. MR BOOYENS: Okay, how far from the kombi? MR J MBANE: It was hardly 10 metres from the kombi, 7 to 10 metres away from the kombi it might have been. MR BOOYENS: No right. At that stage there were still two people inside the kombi. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And you say this man was shot by Bellingan. Or you heard a shot in the kombi. MR J MBANE: And then I heard a fire ringing in the car, and I saw Belletjies grabbing this man and then he hit him with a shot. I was watching it when I ran away. MR BOOYENS: Who fired the shot that you heard inside the kombi? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And then he fired a shot again? Bellingan? MR J MBANE: Yes, he fired again. This person was lying on the ground. I could see 7 to 10 metres away. MR BOOYENS: How many shots did he fire while this person was on the ground? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Rasta? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: There were supposed to be five. Belletjies and them know exactly where they are. There are supposed to be five. They know where the rest are. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: CHAIRPERSON: MR J MBANE: ADV J MOSES: I must add, my Lord, that I have heard that the interpreter said two when he testified in Xhosa. She translated it as two. But when he himself testified in English he referred to three in the kombi. That is how I understood it, just to clear that up. MR BOOYENS: Did you have a hand gun with you? MR J MBANE: I had a Makarov. MR BOOYENS: Did you keep that with you? MR J MBANE: Yes, I kept it with me. MR BOOYENS: Even when you ran away you kept it with you. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: And how did you get to Koeberg? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Were there buses running right to Koeberg at that stage? MR J MBANE: There were buses to Koeberg at the time. MR BOOYENS: The - now apart from the man close to the kombi that you say was shot by Mr Bellingan, did you see anybody else being shot? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: When Rasta was running, did he have his AK with him? MR J MBANE: He had his AK rifle. Because I saw him falling and he stood up again and he fell again and he stood up again with his rifle. He was not far from my direction. There was just a tar road in between. MR BOOYENS: Was he shooting? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Were you subsequently asked to identify the bodies? MR J MBANE: I did not identify the bodies. All I saw was the video the following day. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Do you know whether Eric went to the mortuary? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Were you shown the video and asked to ID the people? MR J MBANE: Some of them were badly injured, their bodies were bullet riddled, although I could identify some of them. MR BOOYENS: So, are you saying that you yourself never identified the bodies, nor all of them on the video. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: All seven of the people that were killed were members of your group. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: I recently saw a television interview with a man who claimed he was also there, and if necessary we are endeavouring to get that video, but he actually got away from that attack. Were there only seven of them or were there more? MR J MBANE: Who managed to run away? MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Can you perhaps insofar as it may be necessary to put to you what the police evidence is. You are not in a position to dispute that members of group attacked the police first. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: The police evidence was that the first thing that happened is that one of the people threw a hand grenade at a police car. You are not in a position to dispute that. You actually heard a hand grenade. Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: ADV J MOSES: My Lords, are the political convictions at this point..does it bear any relevance? CHAIRPERSON: It may affect his credibility, mighten it? MR BOOYENS: Answer the question. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: You were an ex-ANC member, you stayed loyal to them. Are you now again a full and loyal member and supporter of the ANC? Is that right? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Very well. Just to sum up the police evidence will be that someone threw a hand grenade, people shot at a police car, the police shot back and in the fire fight people were killed. MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Did you see Bellingan shoot inside the vehicle? MR J MBANE: I told you before, I am not sure whether you want me to repeat that? MR BOOYENS: Tell me again. Did you see him shoot. Yes or no. MR J MBANE: I saw him shooting, I told you before. MR BOOYENS: Where was he standing at that stage, when he fired the shot into the vehicle? MR J MBANE: I heard a gunshot inside the kombi. He pulled this person out of the kombi. I am not sure whether he was actually shooting at this person while he was lying flat, but he shot this person and I saw him shooting this person because I was just 7 to 10 metres away from him. MR BOOYENS: The question is where was Bellingan when you fired the shot into the kombi. JUDGE MILLER: Are you saying in relation to the kombi, Mr Booyens? MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Now I want to know how do you know he fired inside the kombi? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: How do you know if this shot was fired inside the kombi? MR J MBANE: As I am telling you Sir, I was just 7 to 10 metres from the car. I know a gunshot, I know how it sounds. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: I heard the gunshot inside the kombi, not outside the kombi. MR BOOYENS: Are you seriously suggesting that you could hear whether the gun was being fired inside the kombi, or whether it was being fired next to the kombi? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: What I want to know is how you can say that the shot was fired inside the kombi. Did it sound differently, or why do you say it. Why could the shot not have been fired right next to the kombi? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: So there must have been a bullet hole at least in the kombi. Unless he was firing blanks? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Well you are adamant that he was shooting inside the kombi. Then one would expect at least a bullet hole inside the kombi. Not so? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: I know. MR BOOYENS: Where was he? MR J MBANE: He was next to the passenger seat. MR BOOYENS: On your side of the kombi. Were you also on that side of the kombi? MR J MBANE: I was on the other side. I was-when I tried to run away, I saw this guy who was trying to get out of the kombi. Then I took cover. MR BOOYENS: So he was standing next to the kombi. In which direction did he point the gun when he fired it into the kombi? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Now, where...you say you heard two shots. In what position was the man when he fired these to shots that you claim you saw. MR J MBANE: He was shooting him in the head. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: He was laying on his side. MR BOOYENS: Did he move at all, before he was shot? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: The question was did he move at all before he was shot? MR J MBANE: He tried to move before.... MR BOOYENS: What did he do? What movements did he make? MR J MBANE: As he was laying on his side, you could see that this person was still alive and moving, although at the same time he was trying to cover - I am not sure whether he was trying to surrender or what, when he was being shot, he just moved once and after that he became still. MR BOOYENS: Was Bellingan holding him down when he fired the shots? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: So he was standing upright, shooting at the man lying on his side. Is that what you are saying? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: By then, had Rasta been shot? MR J MBANE: When I was running towards this particular house, Rasta was just a distance from me, just a tar road in between. He fell and stood up, fell and stood up again and I went on with my way. He was approaching a fence, there was a fence somewhere. I am not sure if he was shooting. MR BOOYENS: On which side of the kombi was Rasta. Passengers or drivers when you saw him falling? MR J MBANE: Rasta was running towards a fence and the kombi blocked the road. Rasta was running towards a fence and the kombi blocked the road. MR BOOYENS: The question is on which side of the kombi was the fence. On the drivers side or passenger side. Was Rasta running. MR J MBANE: I am saying to you that Rasta was running, approaching the fence. He moved from the passengers seat and then he approached the fence. I was on the other side of the road. He was on the left hand side and I was on the right-hand side. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: If the Commission will just bear with me, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: Will you look at photograph B4 please. Does that show the scene of the shooting? MR J MBANE: CHAIRPERSON: Can you see the kombi on that photograph? MR J MBANE: Yes, I see it. CHAIRPERSON: Is that the vehicle with its nose on the corner of the intersection. The white vehicle. MR J MBANE: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Now, can you show us where Rasta was running from that vehicle. MR J MBANE: I cannot make out much on this photo, but it seems that he was going in this direction. CHAIRPERSON: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: CHAIRPERSON: Have you drawn it there? May I have the photograph back please? MR BOOYENS: Yes, I am indebted to the Commission, Mr Chairman. Are you under any witness protection programme, or were you under a witness protection programme? MR J MBANE: I want to know the relevance of that to the case. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: I am not under any witness protection. I am protecting myself. MR BOOYENS: The question was two-fold. My mistake. Were you at any stage under a witness protection programme? At a earlier stage or not? Goldstone Department of Justice, anything of that nature. MR J MBANE: No, I was never under any witness protection programme. MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: Did Ms Patel, I take it Ms Patel, my learned colleague on the other side there consulted you in November when you were down here. Is that correct? MR J MBANE: Yes, she did talk to me. MR BOOYENS: Did you tell her that your Johannesburg statement was wrong? MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: MR J MBANE: MR BOOYENS: CHAIRPERSON: Reserve your right until 9:30 tomorrow morning. Very well, we will adjourn. HEARING ADJOURNS