amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS CAPE TOWN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54658&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/capetown/capetown_3kond2.htm JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER The application of this applicant appears in volume 1 from page 23 Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR VISSER Mr Raath you are an applicant applying for amnesty for any criminal or legal deed which was committed by you regarding the incident where Mr Kondile was killed, is that correct? MR RAATH That's correct, yes. MR VISSER In your application on page 23 paragraph 7A and B, you replied "not applicable, and not applicable" to questions as to whether you were, amongst others, a member of a political organisation, institution or body, and if so in what capacity, that information you say to me is wrong. Paragraph 7A which are the correct facts that we can say there? Were you a member of any political organisation? MR RAATH No. MR VISSER Mr Chairman I must tell you, and you will find this with many, many applicants the question here has been put, it's very unclear and it seems to be directed at officials of a particular organisation. Certainly that is the way my attorney read it, he tells me. CHAIRPERSON What about the word "lid"? MR VISSER "Lid", well I've just asked this witness and he says he wasn't a "lid". ADV DE JAGER Was a supporter, the following word? MR VISSER Were you a supporter? MR RAATH Yes I was a supporter. MR VISSER Of which party? MR RAATH Of the National Party. MR VISSER I would ask Mr Chairman, I would move Mr Chairman for an amendment of the application in that regard. 7A should read "National Party" - "supporter" and 7B should read "National Party". CHAIRPERSON (...indistinct) MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman is it correct that on the 21st of January 1968 you became a member of the South African Police? MR RAATH That's correct. MR VISSER And that from the 22nd of January 1968 up to and including December 1973 you were at the Uniform Branch? MR RAATH That's correct. MR VISSER And is it also correct that from 1973 to 1975 you were a detective? MR RAATH That's correct. MR VISSER And from '75 you became involved in the Security Branch? MR RAATH That's correct. MR VISSER Is it also so that from January '89 you were transferred to the Eastern Cape, Port Elizabeth where you lived? CHAIRPERSON Did you say '89? MR VISSER 1980 Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON 1980? MR VISSER Yes. He arrived here one month after Gerrit Erasmus Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER And that you lived in Port Elizabeth until January '82 when you were transferred to Natal? MR RAATH That's correct. MR VISSER And that you lived in Natal until December 1989? MR RAATH That's correct. MR VISSER Thereafter from January 1990 till December '92 you were stationed in Bloemfontein in the Free State? MR RAATH That's correct. MR VISSER And thereafter till the 30th of March 1997 you were in Port Shepstone, in the stabilising unit, the unrest unit? MR RAATH That's correct. MR VISSER And on the 30th of March '97 you left the services of the South African Police Force? MR RAATH That's correct. MR VISSER With which rank? MR RAATH Inspector. MR VISSER Where were you born and where did you grow up? MR RAATH I was born in Pretoria and I grew up there till I was five years old and then we moved to the Eastern Transvaal. MR VISSER Very briefly what was the background of your education milieu? MR RAATH I grew up in a very conservative Afrikaans household and my parents were supporters of the National party and this is how I grew up. We were also member of the NG Church. My parents were supporters of the National Party's policy of apartheid, we believed in that. Apart from opposition speeches and press there were very few things that made me think that I was wrong in this respect. MR VISSER And when you were a policeman you took an oath of trust in the government? MR RAATH That's correct. MR VISSER And as security policemen did you have anything to do with internal security? MR RAATH That's correct, yes. MR VISSER You heard the testimony of du Plessis, van Rensburg and Erasmus, especially Erasmus regarding the matters regarding the unrest situation in Port Elizabeth in the years '80 and '81, was it also your experience regarding the situation there? MR RAATH That's correct. MR VISSER How would you have described the situation, how would you describe it today if you had to tell it in one sentence, how were things during those years, the situation in Port Elizabeth? MR RAATH I regarded it as something that had got out of hand. The conditions in and around Port Elizabeth was that the security situation was out of control. There were problems with the fact that the normal, the ordinary policeman could not do his duties effectively. Policemen were a constant target for attacks....(intervention) MR VISSER Just a bit slower please. You say that the policemen were a constant target for attacks and murder? MR RAATH Yes. This resulted in the fact that law and order could not be maintained and applied properly. The result of this was a tremendous increase in normal, ordinary crime, together with a low success rate of court-orientated actions. There was an inability to protect human lives and property. MR VISSER We've already learnt from Mr Erasmus that the role players or some of the big role players here like students and scholars and the workers, they were the biggest component? MR RAATH That's correct. MR VISSER To save time he also referred to resistance actions which took place there and in general he informed the Committee regarding consumer boycotts, the burning of beer halls and large-scale intimidation, was that also your experience? MR RAATH That is correct. MR VISSER You confirm Mr Erasmus and du Plessis and van Rensburg's testimony in this regard, regarding the general circumstances. Now if we can go direct to Mr Sizwe Kondile's matter. I want you, as far as you can remember, and if you can't remember certain aspects from memory just tell me, please tell us what exactly you had to do with Mr Kondile? I am sorry, first I want to ask what was your rank in 1981? MR RAATH I was a sergeant. MR VISSER So you were functioning on grassroots level? MR RAATH I was involved in Kondile's interrogation. MR VISSER Mr Raath I think I have to lead you in this regard. Mr Kondile was detained in the Free State, you know that? MR RAATH Yes. MR VISSER Do you know how he landed in the Eastern Cape then? MR RAATH I received an instruction from Captain du Plessis to fetch Kondile and to transport him to Port Elizabeth. MR VISSER And you executed this command? MR RAATH Yes. MR VISSER Where did you place Kondile or what happened to him after you had brought him from Bloemfontein? MR RAATH I took him to the police cells in Humansdorp where I detained him, and I reported that to Captain du Plessis. ADV GCABASHE If I might ask Mr Raath, who accompanied you to Bloemfontein? MR RAATH I was accompanied by Capt Greyling who also worked in Port Elizabeth. ADV GCABASHE Was Mr Danster with you when you went to fetch Sizwe Kondile? MR RAATH No. CHAIRPERSON Yes proceed. MR RAATH After I detained him I informed Capt du Plessis that he was being detained at Humansdorp. Later Sizwe Kondile was transferred to Jeffrey's Bay where the interrogation continued. I was at all times in contact with du Plessis. Sometimes we jointly interrogated him, sometimes I was alone, he was alone. MR VISSER Here is a person by the name of Danster who made an affidavit, do you know this person? MR RAATH Yes I know him. MR VISSER Where was this person stationed? MR RAATH During this time relevant to Mr Kondile's detention at Jeffrey's Bay he was working at the same security branch in Port Elizabeth as I. MR VISSER Mr Danster, according to your knowledge, did he interrogate Mr Kondile? MR RAATH No. MR VISSER And according to what you can remember, when did Mr Danster, for the first time, have anything to do with Mr Kondile? MR RAATH It was after I had received an instruction from du Plessis that Kondile should be detained in the barracks. MR VISSER That is what has been referred to as the white single quarters? MR RAATH That's correct. MR VISSER Then Mr Danster was brought to assist you so that there would always be one person with Mr Kondile? MR RAATH That is correct, yes. MR VISSER Mr Raath did you ever assault Mr Kondile? MR RAATH No. MR VISSER And if you had done that are you aware that you could apply for amnesty for that? MR RAATH Yes. MR VISSER Did you ever see Mr Danster assaulting Mr Kondile? MR RAATH No. MR VISSER In any case you were busy saying that you also participated in Mr Kondile's interrogation, what else do you want to add to that? MR RAATH I can just mention that during the time of his detention Kondile conveyed certain information to us, he identified certain things. One important identification was in Transkei. We took him there and he identified two people working in a bank and if I can remember now they were his contact persons who during the smuggling of explosives ...(intervention) MR VISSER Mr Chairman forgive me for asking you but would you switch off your microphone please. CHAIRPERSON Oh I am so sorry. MR VISSER Thank you. Well it wasn't you that was making the noise, I think it's my witness that is making the noise. Please don't touch the microphone please. Can you remember who those persons were who were identified by Kondile in Transkei regarding the smuggling of explosives? MR RAATH I can't remember their names now. MR VISSER But there was an attempt to arrest them but they got away we've heard that evidence. MR RAATH That's correct. MR VISSER Regarding you, what was Mr Kondile's status, did he belong to any organisation according to your information? MR RAATH Yes during my interrogation of Kondile it was evident that he was a trained terrorist. And also a courier between Lesotho, Transkei and the Republic. And that he was trusted by Chris Hani. He was an MK commander. MR VISSER And would you say that Mr Kondile was also, besides being a confidante of Chris Hani also a member of the ANC? MR RAATH Sizwe Kondile was also, besides being a confidante of Chris Hani, also a member of the ANC, he was a trained terrorist. MR VISSER Is it correct to say that you became aware that Mr du Plessis was busy to recruit Mr Kondile as an informer? MR RAATH Yes, that is what he told me, that he was busy to have long discussions with Kondile and to recruit him as an informer. MR VISSER From that moment what was your contact with Mr Kondile afterwards? MR RAATH After du Plessis had told me that he was recruiting him as an informer I withdrew. MR VISSER Why did you do that? MR RAATH It was the general practice at the security branch that you do not interfere with somebody else's informer. MR VISSER An informer has either one or two handlers, you were not one of them? MR RAATH That is correct. MR VISSER You also became aware that something had gone wrong with the deployment of Mr Kondile as an informer. What was mentioned to you. MR RAATH Capt du Plessis approached me and told me that he found that Kondile was smuggling information from the cells to the ANC. He did not provide any details. That created a large problem because certain sensitive information regarding informers and information channels were conveyed to Kondile. Because of this sensitivity of this matter it was decided that Kondile had to be eliminated. MR VISSER In any case afterwards is it correct to say that Mr du Plessis spoke to you again regarding Mr Kondile, and here I refer to the instance when Kondile was already being detained in the white single quarters? MR RAATH That is correct. MR VISSER What occurred during that discussion? MR RAATH That was during the stage when he was in the single quarters, he told me or instructed me and Danster, after he had told me that information was being leaked and that would harm his intelligence network and he said that that person had to be detained there. Nobody should have access to him and I should see that no information would leak from that quarter. MR VISSER I just want to interrupt. You later met Dirk Coetzee? MR RAATH That is correct. MR VISSER As far as you know was he at any stage in contact with Mr Kondile while he was being detained in the single quarters? MR RAATH No. MR VISSER Afterwards Mr du Plessis approached you again ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER Mr Visser I am not sure, but is the evidence that he was in the room with him or that he just passed by. MR VISSER Mr Commissioner as we understand Coetzee's evidence, his provided evidence, he said that he and Nick van Rensburg went to the police cells in Jeffrey's Bay and he gave evidence that he and van Rensburg walked down a passage and there in one room he found two people. One was a black security officer ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER Yes I know he went down the passage, I just think he passed by the door and I ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think your question to this witness was not that, your question was did Dirk Coetzee have contact with Kondile, and he says no he didn't have contact. It was never put that Dirk Coetzee had contact with Kondile. MR VISSER Thank you for pointing that out to me Mr Chairman, it's my mistake, I stand corrected and I appreciate it. Mr Raath while you were busy with Mr Kondile to guard him according to instructions, did you ever see Mr Dirk Coetzee with Mr Kondile? MR RAATH No. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. Now Mr du Plessis talked to you again and what did he tell you? MR RAATH Capt du Plessis gave an instruction in the form of a request. MR VISSER He said he requested you to assist him. He also afforded you the opportunity to consider the matter and a day or two afterwards you came back to him and said that you are prepared to help him. You just said that you regarded that as an instruction rather than a request? MR RAATH That is correct. MR VISSER And exactly what did Mr du Plessis tell you? Did he tell you that they had decided at a higher level that Mr Kondile had to be eliminated? MR RAATH That is correct. MR VISSER And what was the reason why you had to accompany them? MR RAATH The reason was that I had to drive the vehicle with Kondile in from Bloemfontein on. MR VISSER Let's be honest Mr Raath, can you remember the dates when those things took place from memory? MR RAATH It's very difficult from memory. MR VISSER So we leave the dates aside. On a specific day is it correct that you left with other people to Bloemfontein? MR RAATH That is correct? MR VISSER Who were the other people? MR RAATH We travelled with Nick van Rensburg, Colonel du Plessis, the deceased Kondile and I myself. MR VISSER And with whose vehicle did you travel? MR RAATH If I remember well it was Capt du Plessis' vehicle. MR VISSER You left from Port Elizabeth, can you remember at what time of the day it was? Was it during the morning or the afternoon? MR RAATH If I remember correctly it was early in the afternoon. MR VISSER And then eventually you arrived in Bloemfontein. MR RAATH That is correct. MR VISSER Was it light or was it dark? MR RAATH It was already late in the evening. MR VISSER What happened in Bloemfontein? MR RAATH We went to a certain place I can't remember. All I know was the vehicle was handed to me, that was Kondile's car. MR VISSER Can you remember what type of car it was? MR RAATH It was a light coloured Datsun. MR VISSER That was handed to you there, do you remember by whom? MR RAATH It could have been by Capt du Plessis or van Rensburg, one of them. MR VISSER And did you then leave Bloemfontein at one or other time? MR RAATH That's correct. MR VISSER You are saying it's late in the evening and you were driving, who was in which vehicle? MR RAATH Capt du Plessis, Colonel Nick van Rensburg and Kondile travelled in du Plessis' car and I drove Kondile's vehicle. MR VISSER Who was in front and who was behind? MR RAATH They were in front and I followed them. MR VISSER Did you travel fast? MR RAATH No we could not because the vehicle was not in a good condition. MR VISSER Whose vehicle? MR RAATH The Datsun was not in a good condition. MR VISSER To cut a long story short, it was the next day the morning or that afternoon - first I want to say that. O your way, you were travelling from Bloemfontein to where? MR RAATH We were on our way to Komatipoort. MR VISSER On your way to Komatipoort did you do anything to that Datsun vehicle? MR RAATH Yes, near the border, I accept it's the Swaziland border there was a notice saying "Barberton". I got instructions from van Rensburg to park the vehicle along the road and to leave it there with the keys in. MR VISSER And what did you do then after you had parked it there? MR RAATH I then got into the other vehicle and drove further with them. MR VISSER Then you came to Komatipoort and what time of the day was that, was it the morning or the afternoon? MR RAATH I think it was late in the afternoon. MR VISSER And I think it can be said it's common cause that Mr Dirk Coetzee was there, you met him there? MR RAATH That is correct. MR VISSER Was there anybody with him? MR RAATH Yes there was somebody with him. MR VISSER Can you tell us today who that person was? MR RAATH Your Honour I have met that man there for the first time in my life. I have forgotten his name, but later on I established that it was Roy Otto. MR VISSER Can you describe him for us as you remembered him? MR RAATH I can vaguely remember that he was a short, stockish man, he had a bald head. MR VISSER You met Mr Coetzee and that person to whom we will refer to as Mr Otto, for the purposes of your evidence, and what happened then? MR RAATH From there I drove with du Plessis, van Rensburg and Kondile in the same vehicle and we followed Otto and Coetzee in their vehicle. MR VISSER Was there anybody else, any other policeman there? MR RAATH No. MR VISSER And once again, to cut a long story short, you drove into the bush and there you parked the vehicles and got out. What did you do then? MR RAATH Well we got out of the vehicles and I saw that some wood had been gathered and at that stage I was extremely hungry and I gathered some more wood where we lit a fire and we prepared some food. MR VISSER Mr Kondile, was he given any food? MR RAATH Yes. MR VISSER And what happened in the meantime to him? MR RAATH After we got out of the car he was sitting against a tree trunk and his hands were cuffed. We gave him food to eat. While we were standing around the fire Mr Coetzee offered him a drink or something. MR VISSER What happened afterwards? MR RAATH I noticed that Kondile slowly fell to one side and I suspected then that he perhaps felt sleepy. I did not realise precisely what was going to happen. MR VISSER Did you hear later on that it was alleged that sleeping drugs, or drops were put into his drink, you were not aware of it then? MR RAATH No. MR VISSER What happened then? MR RAATH The next moment somebody said this matter must be concluded now and then suddenly this person, this Roy Otto walked up to Kondile, he drew his pistol and a shot rang out. MR VISSER One or more. MR RAATH I only heard one shot. MR VISSER Did that shot kill Mr Kondile? MR RAATH That's correct. MR VISSER It's history now and I understand, I am not going into that in detail, but Mr Kondile's body was burnt to ashes. MR RAATH That is correct. MR VISSER And then eventually you returned to Port Elizabeth. MR RAATH That's correct. MR VISSER And is that the sum total of your participation in this unhappy incident? MR RAATH Yes. MR VISSER Mr Chairman would you bear with me a moment. Mr Raath I've previously referred you to Mr Danster. Mr Danter's statement is found in volume 1. Yes thank you Mr Chairman but more specifically at page 49 the second paragraph. This Mr Danster in his statement submitted - and that is at page 48 I believe Mr Chairman, that he would accompany these people with you, that he would accompany you with Kondile, that it had happened on a Friday and that you would spend the weekend somewhere. Do you know anything about this, or whether Mr Danster was ever asked to accompany you on that occasion where you went to eliminate him? MR RAATH No. MR VISSER It was not put in cross-examination either. I continue to page 49 where Mr Danster says that when you returned you, Mr Raath, bragged about the fact that you had taught Mr Kondile a lesson. And then he asked you what kind of lesson you are referring. He said that you then said his brains were blown apart. And then he drew the inference that Kondile had been eliminated. What are you saying about Mr Danster's version? MR RAATH I deny that. MR VISSER Is there any sense in informing him about Mr Kondile's elimination? MR RAATH No it's not something to brag about. ADV GCABASHE But if I might ask Mr Raath, you were there "he was shot in the head", am I wrong? MR RAATH I can't say whether he was hit in his head, I did not see where the bullet penetrated. I only saw him falling. I was shocked, I did not know what to expect at that stage. ADV GCABASHE My recollection is that the evidence was he was either shot through the ear or through the head, there wasn't any real certainty. Now whichever portion of the head, be it the ear or the head, unless I have a very over-imaginative, whatever, his brain would spat. Now I am simply trying to ascertain your observation and relate it to what is written in this particular affidavit that your counsel is referring to, this particular sentence. MR RAATH Yes, his brains - I did not actually see his brains being blown apart and there is also no physical evidence that his brains were blown apart. MR VISSER But while you accompanied Mr Kondile did he seem like somebody who was abnormally injured or anything like that? MR RAATH No. MR VISSER Let me put it straight. Did it appear as if he was a person who had the same serious brain injury leading to brain damage? MR RAATH No. MR VISSER What are the consequences of this incident Mr Raath, what consequences did it have for you and your family? MR RAATH This is something which happened to me in my life and I and my family are suffering because of this. I am very sorry about this, and I will have to carry this burden for the rest of my life. MR VISSER When you were given the instruction by means of du Plessis' request and you said yes, why did you say "yes you would follow instructions" what was the reason, what was the background? Why did you execute this instruction? MR RAATH In the first place where I was working from the morning till the night this unrest and violent situations, what I saw there where I was working as a security policeman on grassroots level and suddenly all things just overwhelmed you. You can't describe to anybody what type of life you led. To see schools burning every day. You send this way, you send that way. There are trained people who are infiltrating over the borders, they are bringing explosives, ammunitions. There were bomb attacks, and from my point of view there was absolutely chaos during those time. This person was definitely identified through interrogation as a trained terrorist, a courier who also assisted in smuggling weapons and explosives and ammunition into the country. He was working for the ANC in Lesotho. I can go on and on. Taking all these things into consideration it just felt for me that I had to serve the government of the day. As a policeman I had to do this and I had to assist in maintaining and enforcing law and order and to prevent the unrest situation as far as possible, and I felt this is why I said yes. MR VISSER Mr Chairman I notice it is precisely one o'clock. I don't know if you wish to take the luncheon adjournment now. HEARING ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER (cont) Thank you Mr Chairman. Just to round off Mr Raath, in your written application you have referred to certain political objectives and I am referring to volume 1, page 25, 26 and 27, do you confirm that? You don't have it in front of you. It's paragraph 10, A and B, page 25 to 27. MR RAATH That is correct. MR VISSER And in paragraph 10 on page 27 you have requested the honourable Commission to the Foundation for Equality before the Law and also van der Merwe's submission, to incorporate that into this application. Mr Raath if you want to summarise, what were your political motives when this instruction regarding Mr Kondile was executed? MR RAATH Your Honour my primary task was that I had sworn allegiance to the State. I did not do it for my own personal gain, but I acted as a policeman against the liberation movement. I felt that that what I had done, seen against the background of the unrest situation in the area and in the country was something which was associated with my duties as a policeman. My political convictions, I acted in terms of my powers as a member of the South African Police to combat the terrorists and people from the liberation movement. My activities were in the interest of the country to maintain the government of the day. MR VISSER After a struggle had been concluded, it doesn't matter where, it's only the people who are the victims. MR RAATH That is correct. MR VISSER How do you feel today? MR RAATH This was a struggle in which we were involved and I am very sorry for the losses on both sides. MR VISSER Mr Chairman that is the evidence, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOOSA Mr Raath, exactly who was involved in the interrogation of Mr Kondile? MR RAATH It was I and Captain du Plessis. He was also interrogated at a stage by member of our East London security branch. MR MOOSA But with regard to interrogations by the Eastern Cape Security branch it was only you and Mr du Plessis, is that correct? MR RAATH That is correct, as far as I know. MR MOOSA In your application on page 24 Mr Chairman, in your answer to paragraph 9, subsection A(iv) you say that you associate yourself with the statement of Mr du Plessis, in fact you make no statement of your own there, is that correct? MR RAATH That is correct. MR MOOSA 9(A)(iv). CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR RAATH I want to refer you to the corresponding paragraph of Mr du Plessis' affidavit which appears on page 14 of the first bundle, and in particular to the last sentence of the second paragraph thereof, have you found that? That begins - "since his detention..." etc. Can you read that sentence. MR RAATH That is correct. "Since his detention in the Eastern Cape he was interrogated by myself, members of my personnel as well as members of the Border Security Branch". MR MOOSA I want you to focus on "members of my personnel", it's members in plural and the only member you are referring to is yourself. MR RAATH That is correct. I think what he meant there is that Danster was also involved but he was not intensively involved in the interrogation. JUDGE PILLAY To what extent would he have been involved in interrogating? MR RAATH He was only involved in the guarding of Kondile. JUDGE PILLAY Not interrogating? MR RAATH No. MR MOOSA So in fact that's not an application in that Mr Danster was never involved in the interrogation of Mr Kondile, am I right? MR RAATH That is correct. MR MOOSA So how do you explain this which you have incorporated as part of your statement, what other members of Mr du Plessis' team are being here referred to? MR RAATH I do not know whether Captain du Plessis referred to the team that worked with him. MR MOOSA Now that we are talking about Mr Danster, it's also stated by Mr Danster that he was amongst the people who went with you to fetch Mr Kondile from Bloemfontein. MR RAATH That is not true. MR MOOSA In fact the only person you have mentioned to us is a Capt Greyling, is that right? MR RAATH That's correct, yes. MR MOOSA I take it then it was only the two of you and no one else? MR RAATH That's correct. MR MOOSA Not the late Mr Buzane and definitely not Mr Danster? MR RAATH Buzara? MR MOOSA No, Buzane. MR RAATH Buzane, no. MR MOOSA Could you tell us where this Capt Greyling is at the moment, where can we find him? MR RAATH I have no idea where he is stationed at the moment. MR MOOSA And you've said that you fetched Mr Kondile at the Security Branch in Bloemfontein, is that right? MR RAATH That is correct, yes. MR MOOSA Who did you deal with in the security branch in Bloemfontein? MR RAATH I cannot remember. MR MOOSA In what type of vehicle did you proceed from the Eastern Cape to Bloemfontein ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Is there some doubt about all this? If there isn't any doubt about it then what is the purpose of these questions? MR MOOSA Mr Chairman it goes back to the question you asked me, which is, our version is that Mr Kondile was abducted from Lesotho. CHAIRPERSON Put that. MR MOOSA I am leading up to something with the vehicle, it will become apparent in the next question. What type of vehicle was used Mr Raath? MR RAATH It was a sedan, it was Capt Greyling's official vehicle. MR MOOSA So it was not a Datsun Laurel? MR RAATH No. MR MOOSA You are aware that Mr Danster has made a detailed statement, in fact it was put to you in evidence-in-chief, where he says amongst other things that you went to Bloemfontein and that there was discussion with Mr Kondile on the way back. MR RAATH No, not at any stage did Danster travel to Bloemfontein with me. MR MOOSA Was there any discussion with Mr Kondile on the way back? MR RAATH Yes I did speak to him. MR MOOSA Could you tell us what that was about? MR RAATH At that stage I did not have background, I asked him where he came from and I just spoke to him in general until we reached Port Elizabeth. MR MOOSA It is my instructions, as I have just mentioned to the Chairman, that Mr Kondile was abducted from Lesotho. MR RAATH That's unknown to me. MR MOOSA Now Mr Danster has said in his statement that Mr Kondile was interrogated over a long period and was subjected to many assaults. MR RAATH I do not know anything about the assaults. MR MOOSA Could you describe the assaults you do concede to those, that is those by Mr du Plessis. MR RAATH I was not present when Capt du Plessis assaulted him. I only heard this here at the trial. MR MOOSA You would agree with me that the arrest of Mr Kondile was a very important event, not so? MR RAATH That's correct. MR MOOSA I would take it therefore that senior officers and other policemen would have come to Jeffrey's Bay to see the person who has been arrested. MR RAATH All that I know of is that Capt du Plessis, I worked with him, that he was there. I didn't see any other officers there. MR MOOSA One of the people that's mentioned by Mr Danster and is agreed to - sorry. There is mention by Mr Danster of people who came from Pretoria, white policemen. MR RAATH I do not know about that. MR MOOSA And Mr Coetzee has stated that it was himself who went with Mr van Rensburg at least past this place and certainly saw Mr Kondile at the white single quarters. MR RAATH I have no knowledge of that. CHAIRPERSON Do you know whether Mr Dirk Coetzee came there? MR RAATH No I have no knowledge of that at all. MR MOOSA When you fetched Mr Kondile in Bloemfontein do you know what happened to the vehicle which Mr Kondile had? MR RAATH At that stage I did not have any knowledge of his vehicle. I only had the instruction to fetch this man and to take him through to Port Elizabeth. JUDGE PILLAY Mr Raath tell me, you and Mr Danster, were you working in a pair or could it possibly be that he was on duty when you were off at some time during that period of Mr Kondile's detention? MR RAATH I do not know which stage you are referring to now. JUDGE PILLAY At the time (no interpretation). MR RAATH That's correct. JUDGE PILLAY U was daar ...... MR RAATH That's correct. JUDGE PILLAY Also Mr Danster, not so? MR RAATH That's correct. JUDGE PILLAY Did you work together or were there occasions when you were off duty and he was on duty? MR RAATH Yes, we were with him together most of the time. JUDGE PILLAY Do you know when there were occasions when he was alone? MR RAATH Yes there were. ADV DE JAGER Was he guarded day and night? MR RAATH Yes. We all slept there at night and he also slept in the room. There was a bed for him. ADV DE JAGER Yes, but you say there were three in the room? MR RAATH That's correct. CHAIRPERSON At the time, was there a time when Danster was alone with Kondile? MR RAATH That's correct. CHAIRPERSON And where would you be then? MR RAATH I could have been in Port Elizabeth perhaps busy doing other work or I could even have gone home. CHAIRPERSON Yes do carry on. MR MOOSA When Mr Kondile was interrogated was it always by you alone or were there times when you would join Mr du Plessis and you would do it together? MR RAATH There were times that we sat together, there were times when I was alone, when he was alone during the interrogation. MR MOOSA And if Mr du Plessis was there to interrogate Mr Kondile would he also stay over at Jeffrey's Bay? MR RAATH Not necessarily, no. MR MOOSA Most Mr Kondile cooperative from the beginning as far as you were concerned? MR RAATH As far as I was concerned from the time that I was involved in the operation he gave his cooperation and I had no problems with him. MR MOOSA I am going to put it to you that it's in the highest degree unlikely that you would not have assaulted him and that the version given by Danster is very probable. MR RAATH No. MR MOOSA You say that Mr du Plessis told you about his decision to recruit Mr Kondile, am I right? MR RAATH That is correct. MR MOOSA And if I followed your evidence-in-chief properly, he also kept you informed of how that was going? MR RAATH That's correct. MR MOOSA I would imagine you worked as a security policeman at that point on a need-to-know basis, or am I wrong? MR RAATH With his recruitment Capt du Plessis did this on his own, I was present while he was doing the interrogation but he was alone with the man at times and in this way he recruited him and he worked with him on his own. MR MOOSA The recruitment occurred while Mr du Plessis was alone with Mr Kondile, is that what you are saying? MR RAATH Yes, most of the time. MR MOOSA Now why would Mr du Plessis come and tell you, a junior officer, about his progress with the recruitment? MR RAATH He did not elaborate and give me details but I could realise that he was recruiting the man and that there was mutual trust. MR MOOSA Did he also tell you about the note he allegedly found on Mr Kondile? MR RAATH It was mentioned to me but I was not told the details about the note. MR MOOSA When did you first meet Mr Coetzee? MR RAATH It was at Komatipoort. MR MOOSA And Sergeant Otto? MR RAATH At the same time, at Komatipoort. MR MOOSA You are telling us of course that Mr van Rensburg never visited, whenever you were present at least, at Jeffrey's Bay? MR RAATH That is correct. MR MOOSA And the same applies to Mr Erasmus? MR RAATH That's correct. MR MOOSA Now I am going to take you through from the Eastern Cape to Bloemfontein where supposedly Mr Kondile was released and then abducted or kidnapped. When it's said that he was released does that mean that he was allowed to leave with his motor vehicle from the police station or did the whole transaction occur of him being kidnapped at the Bloemfontein station? ADV DE JAGER Sorry. I think the evidence was that he was released at Jeffrey's Bay, according to the papers at least, if it can be said he was ever released. MR MOOSA I stand corrected. What actually happened, though, with the vehicle at Bloemfontein, with Mr Kondile's vehicle, did you fetch it immediately from the station and did you get him directly? MR RAATH The vehicle was handed to me by Capt du Plessis or Colonel van Rensburg, I cannot remember which one of the two it was that gave me the keys of the vehicle. MR MOOSA I am asking this question because Mrs Kondile has brought it to my attention that there seemed to be a number of reports at the time that Mr Kondile was led into his vehicle and was allowed to go, to be released, do you know anything about those? MR RAATH No. MR MOOSA At Komatipoort itself you say you found the wood already gathered, does that mean the wood was waiting for you? MR RAATH That is correct. There was a pile of wood lying there. MR MOOSA And the area which you were in was a remote area, it was unlikely that onlookers would stumble onto what was happening there, am I right? MR RAATH That's correct, yes. It's a forestry area. MR MOOSA You have said that Sergeant Otto shot Mr Kondile and you heard the sound, is that right? MR RAATH That's correct as far as I can remember. MR MOOSA I take it then that a silencer was not used? MR RAATH That's correct, otherwise I would not have heard the shot. MR MOOSA I put it to you that it's highly unlikely that a silencer would not be used to execute Mr Kondile. MR RAATH I cannot recall it very well but I cannot think that they used a silencer. MR MOOSA You say that you are unable to recall dates, tell me how you are able to recall the name of Sergeant Otto? MR RAATH I said that it was a person that I met at the scene and I later refreshed my memory, I remembered the name Roy Otto. MR MOOSA When you refreshed your memory was it with the aid of your co-applicants, that is Mr van Rensburg, Mr Erasmus and Mr du Plessis? MR RAATH That's correct. I think I asked one of them whether they could recall who the man was. I gave a description of the man to you and they, one of them, said that this was Mr Otto and the name rang a bell. MR MOOSA I take it that was the first time you met Mr Otto during this transaction in Komatipoort? MR RAATH That's correct. MR MOOSA We have heard evidence about various meetings before statements were compiled, were you at any one of those meetings? MR RAATH No. MR MOOSA Did you read Mr du Plessis' statement before you signed yours? MR RAATH No. MR MOOSA You just went ahead and signed your statement? MR RAATH After I went to my legal representatives I compiled my statement and I signed it. MR MOOSA You have described in your evidence your background and what you thought about what you called terrorists, am I right? MR RAATH That's correct. MR MOOSA You have also told us though that you averted your eyes and tried not to see what was going on, and in fact that you were shocked? MR RAATH That's correct. MR MOOSA I will put it to you that that is actually unlikely that you would do that. You would more likely have enjoyed every moment of what you saw. MR RAATH That is completely untrue. MR MOOSA And that is why you would have gone back and bragged to Mr Danster and everyone else possibly how the man's brains were splattered. MR RAATH That is absolutely untrue. MR MOOSA At the end of your statement as also at the end of your evidence today you told us that you were doing what you did in the execution of your duties as a policeman. MR RAATH Yes and I worked under instructions. MR MOOSA Well working under instructions or not what you did was totally unlawful and it's not what is supposed to be done by a policeman it's a criminal act. MR RAATH I understand that that it's illegal but I did this in the execution of my duties and I think that I have testified to this effect. MR MOOSA I put it to you that from the viewpoint of my clients there is no political motive whatsoever that will ever justify what you have done. MR RAATH It was absolutely a political motivation. MR MOOSA And that even if there were any political motives you would have exceeded the bounds you were allowed to go to. MR RAATH I don't believe that I exceeded the bounds, I worked under instructions. MR MOOSA Finally it's our contention that you have not made full disclosure to this Committee but a part of a massive cover-up and the versions given by Mr Coetzee and Mr Danster are more probable. MR RAATH That is why I came here to tell the truth. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOOSA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYOKA Two minutes again Mr Chairman. I will ask for amnesty if I go beyond. Mr Raath when you went to fetch the vehicle of Mr Kondile from Bloemfontein were you not given any of those false documentations that he was alleged to have used in crossing into the country? As now he was going to be detained as well in PE or Humansdorp. MR RAATH No your Honour. MR NYOKA What did he have in his possession when you were transporting him to the Eastern Cape? MR RAATH If I remember correctly he had nothing with him, no suitcase, nothing, or any documentation. MR NYOKA And you did not find any weapons or pamphlets in his possession? MR RAATH No. MR NYOKA My instructions are that Mr Kondile was kidnapped from Lesotho, he did not cross as alleged, not by you by other policemen, hence you could not find anything with him, he had no clothing. He was abducted. Do you dispute that stance? MR RAATH Your Honour I don't know anything about an abduction. MR NYOKA Finally just in Volume 2, page 169 I would like you to turn to 169, Volume 2, there's a name on top, Phakamile Xlamile, this person was a close friend of mine, he skipped with Mr Kondile in 1980 and he has informed me to tell you that as now he's in the Easter Cape Provincial Government, Safety and Security, that Mr Kondile would never cross into the country with a vehicle. The two of them would infiltrate by swimming across the river as they had done before. Mr Kondile will swim across the river with him, Mr Xlamile. MR VISSER Well Mr Chairman what is the status of this question, on what is it based? Is this man going to come and give evidence, is my learned friend giving the evidence, what is the status of this, with all due respect? CHAIRPERSON (...indistinct) MR NYOKA I am putting it to you the family waited for 16 years, I have got to put this. This is not just a one week affair. The family has been sitting on this for 16 years. He has said that Mr Kondile infiltrated the country with him by swimming across, that he crossed with a vehicle is a figment of everybody's imagination, we are saying so. MR RAATH Your Honour I can't comment on this. I don't know anything about that. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS BY MR NYOKA MR MARAIS (?) I don't know if Mr Jansen, Advocate Jansen ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You do it first. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MARAIS Thanks Mr Chairman. You got information from Mr Kondile is that correct, that's now you personally? MR RAATH Yes that's correct. MR MARAIS How did you succeed in doing this? MR RAATH By interrogating him. MR MARAIS Is that all, did you just ask him to give you information and he gave you the information? MR RAATH No it was not that easy. MR MARAIS Can you tell the Commission what you did, how you did it? MR RAATH If there was a subject regarding which interrogation was done I asked him about. And then he was questioned about that, depending on what the information was. MR MARAIS Now we know about the information regarding the people in the bank, you were also involved when that was obtained? MR RAATH That's correct. MR MARAIS The information was merely obtained by methods of interrogation, there was no pressure exerted on him or anything else, is that what you are saying? MR RAATH That's correct. MR MARAIS If it would have happened then you would have known about it, not so? MR RAATH That's correct. MR MARAIS And he wasn't promised anything either? MR RAATH With his recruitment Capt du Plessis might have promised him something, I do not know what. I don't know what he discussed with him. MR MARAIS So you don't know at all what Captain du Plessis, what he interrogated him about. MR RAATH He tasked him as an informer and from his interrogation and from mine we put the answers together and we reacted on that. MR MARAIS So was he interrogated on his own, then he would come back to you and say that he had obtained that information? MR RAATH Yes our interrogation was bound in a bundle and we made notes. We knew what had happened with each other's interrogation, we worked together as a team. MR MARAIS And he also obtained information just as you did? MR RAATH Yes that's correct. MR MARAIS And you don't know how he succeeded in getting the information from Kondile, which method he used or which pressure he exerted? MR RAATH By interrogating him I don't know whether he promised him anything. MR MARAIS But you personally didn't tell him if you give me the information then I can have these wonderful things happen to you? MR RAATH No. MR MARAIS Do you think that it was practice that Mr du Plessis would have done something like that? MR RAATH I don't know, I cannot reply to that. MR MARAIS Are you saying you don't know what the practice of interrogation was during that time? MR RAATH Yes I know. This man was in a stage of his recruitment as an informer and the recruitment process was dealt with by Capt du Plessis and this man gave information because he had already started cooperating and this information was followed up. MR MARAIS I understand that but what I am asking you is, did you know what the practice was, which means you used in order to obtain this information, because you surely would no just tell the man please give me the information and he'd say no thank you or thank you here's the information. MR RAATH When he was recruited and he gave his cooperation then there was a reward. MR MARAIS So you knew that? MR RAATH Yes I knew that. MR MARAIS But you didn't know whether Captain du Plessis offered him a reward? MR RAATH I don't know. MR MARAIS You yourself was it within your powers to offer him a reward? MR RAATH Well if I had an informer that I had registered I could have gone to my superior and I could have received a reward to give to him for his cooperation if I felt that he deserved it. MR MARAIS And your evidence before the Commission is that it wasn't necessary for you personally to offer Kondile a reward to get the information that you did get? MR RAATH No it wasn't necessary for me to do so. MR MARAIS How long did you interrogate him before you became aware of the fact that Captain du Plessis was recruiting him? MR RAATH The recruitment process started from the first day that he was being interrogated and this continued and the information also continued and we worked on this information as a team and I could see in which direction things were going. He trusted Capt du Plessis and vice versa and with the recruitment I did not get involved personally. MR MARAIS So from the interrogation on the first day you were aware of the fact that Capt du Plessis was recruiting this man? MR RAATH Yes it was clearly visible, this man cooperated from the start. ADV GCABASHE Could I just ask Mr Raath, did you also give Mr Kondile paper on which to write reports to you? MR RAATH No I never gave him any paper. ADV GCABASHE Did you ever receive written reports from him you know as part of his cooperation with you? MR RAATH No, notes which were made I made myself as he made things known to me. ADV GCABASHE The room that you interrogated him in was it the same room that he used to sleep in? MR RAATH That is correct. ADV GCABASHE At no stage did you find any paper on him, you personally? MR RAATH No, I personally never found anything. ADV GCABASHE Did you at any stage see him give a written report to Mr du Plessis? MR RAATH No I did not. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. MR MARAIS Thank you Mr Chairman. At which stage did you withdraw from the interrogation? MR RAATH If I can remember correctly it was after the identification in the Transkei and when I heard from Capt du Plessis that he had recruited the man and that he was his handler and that's when I did it, when I withdrew. MR MARAIS After he was recruited was he recruited at the stage when he was already in Humansdorp? MR RAATH I would say that the recruitment that it can require a lengthy period, but it had started there. MR MARAIS More specifically was he recruited at Humansdorp already? MR RAATH No in Jeffrey's Bay. MR MARAIS Were you present or were you assisting in the interrogation from the beginning to the end? MR RAATH That's correct. MR MARAIS And you are saying that what you saw from the first day that you could see that he was busy turning? MR RAATH That's correct. MR MARAIS And that he gave his cooperation from the first day? MR RAATH That's correct. MR MARAIS Capt du Plessis says at one stage it was necessary to hit him with his open hand and with his fists. MR RAATH I never saw that. MR MARAIS And he found it necessary to do so in order to get his cooperation. MR RAATH That can be possible but I was not present. ADV GCABASHE And did Sizwe Kondile never say to you Capt du Plessis was here yesterday and what a clap, he made no comment to you at all? MR RAATH No he mentioned nothing to me. MR MARAIS Thank you. Did you get the impression when he was transferred to Jeffrey's Bay that things were going easier, that the recruitment had been finalised? No before the recruitment was completed did you have the impression that things were going easier now, that things were coming to an end and that the recruitment will be completed? MR RAATH I can't say that things were nearing a certain point now, but at one stage he told me that the person had been recruited now. I can't say at which stage. It's not easy to pinpoint a specific stage. MR MARAIS Could you get the impression from Mr Kondile himself? MR RAATH Yes he cooperated closely with du Plessis, they often spent time together. They sat talking there. MR MARAIS And when you interrogated him in Jeffrey's Bay was it easier for you too? MR RAATH Yes at that stage the identification had been done and I have completed my task. MR MARAIS How long on average did you spend per day to interrogate him, or separately your joint attempts, either individually or jointly, how long was he interrogated? MR RAATH It was usually normal office hours. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I didn't catch the answer to the last question. MR RAATH They spent the whole day interpreting him, normal office hours. MR MARAIS Do I have to repeat the question, did you hear that? MR RAATH He was interrogated periodically. MR MARAIS And if I understand it correctly you interrogated him for almost a month, a little bit less than one month? MR RAATH That is correct, yes. Initially the interrogation was done and the information obtained and later on he was not integrated so much. MR MARAIS You see what I am wondering about is how much information did Kondile have that it had taken so long for him, considering the fact that he was cooperating that it had taken a month to give you the information he had, was it volumes full of information? MR RAATH I would put it in this way. The information I got and the follow-up work I did in Transkei I have completed my task. Du Plessis testified according to what happened afterwards. MR MARAIS What I am saying is now you don't want to answer this. MR RAATH That what I have interrogated him for took about two weeks and the follow-up and what du Plessis testified about I can't say. Perhaps whether he's obtained bundles and bundles of information I don't know. MR MARAIS But you would have known if there was bundles full of information and was there? MR RAATH Yes there was, this information was presented here but I did not work with that. I just worked on the information I obtained. We went to Transkei, we identified some people and my tasks were completed. MR MARAIS If I understand you correctly there were bundles of documentation regarding information provided by Kondile to the Security police. MR RAATH Those were things du Plessis handled. CHAIRPERSON I think your question should really be coming to your client's commitment or involvement in the matter, the extent of his involvement. MR MARAIS Yes my questions are related to that, my client's version is that Kondile was tortured and it was difficult to get the information. Now he is saying it is easy to obtain the information. I want to ascertain how much information he had because it took a whole month. I will continue to the next point. Mr Raath your evidence is that you were involved at Humansdorp and Jeffrey's Bay all the time except those times when du Plessis was there. MR RAATH That's what I testified yes. MR MARAIS Mr Chairman you can stop me. The impression I've got as far as I remember Mr du Plessis' evidence was that Mr Raath appeared on the scene at Jeffrey's Bay after the note had been found and he was sent there to guard Kondile. Mr Raath you've heard what I've said. Mr du Plessis' evidence was ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Your objection? ADV VISSER My objection is that my learned colleague is putting a question on a factual basis which doesn't exist. Mr du Plessis was quite clear in his evidence that he and Raath interrogated this man. Raath has told you that by the time that du Plessis told him that the man had become an informer, Raath then faded out of the picture. That is the evidence. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MARAIS Mr Chairman is that the correct version that he put, I wasn't sure that's why I asked if...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON That is part of the answer that was given by Mr du Plessis but I think it is common cause that Mr Raath was the man who went in the first instance to bring Kondile from Bloemfontein. ADV VISSER Yes you're absolutely right Mr Chair, that's correct. MR MARAIS Mr Raath what was the practice - Let me rather put it in this way, if you have to fetch a trained terrorist from another station, how many people are sent to fetch him? MR RAATH In our case we were two. It's not necessary to send a whole truck load full of people. They never sent more than two people. MR MARAIS Perhaps yes, it would have been safer, wouldn't you agree? Don't you believe it would have been safer if more policemen went to fetch him. MR RAATH I did not see the necessity, there were things like handcuffs which could be used. MR MARAIS Mr Chairman, just a minute please. Your evidence is some identifications were done by Mr Kondile? MR RAATH That is correct yes. MR MARAIS During these identifications who were involved, was it you, Mr Kondile and who else? MR RAATH Captain du Plessis and also members from East London, I can't remember specifically who. MR MARAIS Mr du Plessis specifically testified about an incident in King William's Town when he was not there, can you remember that? MR RAATH Yes I can mainly remember about a taxi rank which was indicated. MR MARAIS Who were there if he wasn't there? MR RAATH There were members from East London who were there, I don't know who they were. MR MARAIS Were they senior officers or junior officers? MR RAATH I can't say. MR MARAIS Then the practice is that identification is done to a senior to an officer at least. MR RAATH It depends on what kind of identification. CHAIRPERSON Did Mr Danster have anything to do with all this? MR RAATH No your Honour. MR MARAIS According to Mr Danster, you and Mr du Plessis were only involved when it came to the single quarters, is that correct? MR RAATH Yes. MR MARAIS Did Mr du Plessis still visit Kondile in the single quarters? MR RAATH Yes regularly. MR MARAIS What happened there then? MR RAATH They held discussions. I was not involved in that. MR MARAIS What happened to you and Mr Danster when Mr du Plessis came there? MR RAATH I went to do something else or somebody was at least relieving me. MR MARAIS And how regularly did that happen? MR RAATH I can't say it could have been every day or every second day. MR MARAIS That was during the stage when he was in the single quarters and I accept that he drove quite a way to get there. MR RAATH Yes he came from Port Elizabeth. MR MARAIS So I assume that he would not just stay there for five minutes, he would spend some time there if he took the trouble to come all that way. MR RAATH Sometimes he spent a short time there, sometimes he was on his way to do something else, that wasn't the only thing he had to do. MR MARAIS Mr du Plessis and Mr Kondile, did they also go out to do identifications? MR RAATH We all went together during these identifications in Transkei. MR MARAIS It was already at that stage when he was placed in the single quarters? MR RAATH No that happened before that. MR MARAIS When he was placed in the single quarters then Mr du Plessis and Kondile, did he go anywhere then? MR RAATH No I can't remember. MR MARAIS Why I'm asking you that is Mr du Plessis had testified that after you had been placed in the single quarters, no interrogation took place. MR RAATH That's correct. MR MARAIS And I find it strange, and I'm putting it to you, if no interrogation had taken place, what was he doing there every day? MR RAATH I've told you, no interrogation took place but they held discussions. What they were talking about I don't know. MR MARAIS Are you sure there was no interrogation. MR RAATH I'm sure. MR MARAIS How do you know that? MR RAATH I said so because I was there. MR MARAIS So were you there when Capt du Plessis visited him in the single quarters and spoke to him? MR RAATH Yes I was there. MR MARAIS As I've heard your evidence, you and Mr Danster left when du Plessis came there. MR RAATH We could have stayed in the room, we could have left the room. MR MARAIS I can understand that but you've earlier testified not that we could go outside, you said that we did go outside when du Plessis came there and that was the reason why you said you didn't what was happening between them. MR RAATH This had happened seventeen years ago, I could have made a mistake, but according to what I can remember, I could have gone out, I could have gone to the cafe. MR MARAIS I'm putting it to you that it's strange now that you're using the excuse of not knowing. When I'm mentioning to you that you are contradicting Mr du Plessis's evidence, this is why you're using the excuse now. MR RAATH As far as I know Captain du Plessis never visited him at the single quarters. MR MARAIS Are you sure? But you've earlier said that he came there every second day. MR RAATH I said he did visit them. MR MARAIS What was Mr du Plessis instruction to you and Danster at the single quarter? MR RAATH Mr du Plessis informed me and I've testified in this regard about the information which was smuggled from the cells and he would place Kondile in the single cells and we had to guard him. MR MARAIS Are you sure. MR RAATH Yes I'm sure. MR MARAIS So he told you that Kondile wanted to smuggle information, to leak information and you must be sure that it doesn't happen. That's strange because Mr du Plessis said that he never mentioned that to you, he just gave you a general instruction that you had to guard this person, see that nothing goes in, nothing goes out. He didn't give a reason for that. MR RAATH Mr du Plessis did give a reason. He informed me. MR MARAIS So he must have made a mistake in his evidence. But you are sure now that he had provided you with a reason. MR RAATH He did give me a reason. MR MARAIS So if you are sure he perhaps is making a mistake. Both can't be correct because it's two different things. CHAIRPERSON Can you just come over to the - you've got a very limited role to play in this matter here, I want you to understand that. I wish you'd confine yourself to matters pertaining to your client please ...(intervention) MR MARAIS Mr Chairman...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON There must be some limit to these proceedings as well, we can't carry on indefinitely you see. MR MARAIS Mr Chairman while you touch on the subject, may I be allowed to make a short submission. CHAIRPERSON Please not, I want this witness to finish. MR MARAIS Thank you Mr Chairman. Did Mr Danster ever talk to Mr Kondile while he was guarding him? MR RAATH As far as I can remember yes. MR MARAIS There were no problems between Danster and Kondile to talk about social matters? MR RAATH No not as far as I can remember. MR MARAIS And between you and Mr Kondile? You spoke freely to one another. MR RAATH Yes as far as I can remember. MR MARAIS And you did? MR RAATH Yes we did. MR MARAIS Did Kondile make any attempt as far as you could gather that he was trying to leak some information or smuggle information from single quarters? MR RAATH Not that I know of. MR MARAIS And if I remember correctly your task was specifically to prevent that that should happen. MR RAATH That is correct yes. MR MARAIS So your attention would have been focused on such possible attempts. MR RAATH That's possible yes. MR MARAIS And you're telling the Commission that you can't remember that he tried to do something like that. MR RAATH I can't remember. MR MARAIS And I'm putting it to you that it is improbable that you would not have tried. MR RAATH He would not have done it openly so that you could see it because then it would not be smuggling. MR MARAIS I'll concede to that. MR MARAIS You and Mr Danster's relationship at that stage, were there any problems? MR RAATH No. MR MARAIS Were you only colleagues or were you also friends on a social level? MR RAATH We were colleagues. MR MARAIS Did anything happen afterwards between the two of you that would have caused friction? MR RAATH Nothing. MR MARAIS You can't think why Mr Danster is saying these things about you in his statement? Do you know what is entailed in Mr Danster's statement? You don't know why he's saying these things about you? MR RAATH No I don't know. MR MARAIS No further questions your Honour. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) would you rather do that when you're re-examining your witness? MR RAATH No I've - you stopped me Mr Chairman, I wanted to make a submission in regard to this cross-examination and this witness but that's now over and done with. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR RAATH I've got no re-examination your Worship. CHAIRPERSON No well I, you may yes because I'm going to ask Mr Jansen if he has questions. MR MARAIS I'm sorry no. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARAIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Jansen do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN MR JANSEN Yes thank you Mr Chairman, I do. Mr Raath you would agree that your application is more than cryptic. You just confirm in total your co-applicant's applications. MR RAATH That is correct. MR JANSEN Why did you not make an attempt to spontaneously give your own version? MR RAATH I've given my evidence for the purposes for which I am here and that is to come and tell the truth. MR JANSEN But my submission to the Committee is that I have the impression that you all follow the one version till the end till you see which way things are going and so that you based all your applications on this one standpoint. MR RAATH I've just told you about what I know. MR JANSEN I just want to get certainty. Did you yourself compile this statement, type it? MR RAATH No it was done by my legal representatives. MR JANSEN And did they ask information from you, you conveyed the information to them and they worded it and formulated it? MR RAATH That is correct yes. MR JANSEN Now the one thing I still find absent in all your evidence is that the detailed evidence regarding the interrogation about these bomb attacks, do you know whether he was interrogated about bomb attacks? MR RAATH From my side I can't remember. I can't, whether I've asked him anything about bomb attacks. I was concentrating on the photo album and about identifications. MR JANSEN What was your specific function? MR RAATH I worked directly under du Plessis in black affairs. MR JANSEN You also know what Mr Coetzee's version is regarding the Audi 80 which was stolen? MR RAATH Yes I've heard about that. MR JANSEN You deny any knowledge of that incident? MR RAATH I don't know anything about that. MR JANSEN Mr Coetzee also said that amongst others, after the Audi had been stolen, you said that you wanted the tyres, you've read that version of his? MR RAATH Yes but I don't know about that. MR JANSEN Yes you're saying Mr Coetzee is lying. MR RAATH I don't know about the Audi, I don't know about the tyres. MR JANSEN Either Mr Coetzee is lying or he is confusing you with someone else? One of the two, that must be your submission. MR RAATH I wouldn't know where he got this from. MR JANSEN Okay, could I just ask Mr Raath, I read somewhere here that you owned a Passat at the time, is that correct? MR RAATH That is correct yes. MR JANSEN Now I don't know but would an Audi tyre fit a Passat tyre? MR RAATH Not necessarily. MR JANSEN You wouldn't know, thank you. One other point, you also know Mr Coetzee's version regarding what happened at Komatipoort. MR RAATH That is correct yes. MR JANSEN I don't want to explain it to you in detail because I know you've listened to your colleagues reacting to certain parts which have been submitted to them. There is not any specific part of Mr Coetzee's evidence on which you want to comment apart from denying it? ADV VISSER That's not a reasonable question, if my learned friend wants evidence which he wants to put to the witness he must do so. He can't make a sweeping statement to say what do you disagree with Dirk Coetzee's evidence Mr Chairman. This witness ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) he wants to comment on. Is there anything about Coetzee's evidence which you wish to comment? Is that what you're trying to get? MR JANSEN Yes I accept Mr Chairman that it's not practice to place it in such a wide term but maybe I should just place the main events, the main moment's of Coetzee's version to this witness. CHAIRPERSON Yes do that please. MR JANSEN Right If you just want to comment on the following statements Coetzee says that he did visit Jeffrey's Bay police station where he saw the detainee Mr Kondile. MR RAATH I did not see Coetzee there. MR JANSEN And Coetzee said that it was at the same stage you stole an Audi vehicle together with him, and Coetzee conceded that he was later murdered at Komatipoort, implicated other people like Fleming for example and he implicates a certain Deetlefs and Rorich, van Dyk but on the other hand he does not implicate Roy Otto. MR RAATH These people he's referring to, I don't know them. I've already said in my evidence who were there. We were definitely not at the same party. MR JANSEN Please repeat. MR RAATH We weren't all at the same place. MR JANSEN Did I hear your evidence correctly that Danster first came on the scene when Kondile was transferred to the single quarters? MR RAATH That is correct yes. It could have been that Danster moved with me, perhaps visited the man in the cells but he was not involved in his interrogation. MR JANSEN It could have possible been that Kondile was was first detained in the cells in Jeffrey's Bay before he was transferred to the single quarters. MR RAATH That is correct yes. MR JANSEN So did Danster's role entail anything else apart from guarding? MR RAATH No he only guard Kondile. MR JANSEN Would he ever have taken him out for investigation? MR RAATH No. MR JANSEN Look on page 185. CHAIRPERSON What volume are we talking about. MR JANSEN Volume 2 Mr Chairman, page 185. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR JANSEN Page 185, it's a cell register dated the 25.7.81. The first entry right at the top and correct me if my quote is wrong, serial number 1444 and the 10H.50 and then it reads as follows "Investigations on -:, 'B M' which probably stands for 'Black Man' Bueinisizwe Kondile out of cells for investigation, escort by Sgt Danster" . Would you agree with what I'm reading there? MR RAATH It is correct yes. MR JANSEN This was on the 25th of July. MR RAATH That is correct. MR JANSEN As I remember your evidence if I remember that correctly, Kondile was transferred from Humansdorp to Jeffrey's Bay on the 24th of July. MR RAATH That is correct yes. MR JANSEN How do you explain then Danster's involvement in this investigation, one day after his arrival at Jeffrey's Bay? MR RAATH It could possibly be that I sent him to the cells to take him out. MR JANSEN Yes anything can be possible. Sorry Mr Chairman I'm not correct, there's just one more question that I do, it's not...(indistinct). To detain Kondile in a the single quarters, is it correct that the cooperation of the station commander was required for that? MR RAATH I think yes it was cleared by Captain du Plessis and that was lieutenant Warrant Officer Jonker, I can't remember him. MR JANSEN Mr Chairman I have no further questions. Sorry Mr Chairman if you could just bear with me. CHAIRPERSON Yes certainly. MR JANSEN Yes sorry Mr Chairman there's just a last aspect that I want to refer this witness to. Mr Raath can you please page to page 163 in volume 2. It's an affidavit of a certain Edwin Mayepe. Have you seen this affidavit before? MR RAATH It's the first time that I've seen this. MR JANSEN I'll just summarise it quickly. It's an affidavit which is made in 1990 for purposes of the Harms Commission by this Mayepe who said that in '81 a second hand Audi 80 was stolen from him in Port Elizabeth. It also confirms that he was involved at that stage with a legal officer of a trade union. My question to you is can you think of any reason why Mr Coetzee would become involved in the theft of a vehicle or make up his own participation in this theft at the stage when he testified before the Harms Commission? MR RAATH I have no knowledge of that because I said that I did not even see Coetzee if he was in Port Elizabeth. CHAIRPERSON Had you known or seen Coetzee by that time in 1981? MR RAATH No I saw him for the first time at Komatipoort. CHAIRPERSON So even if he was there, you may not have known who he was at Jeffrey's Bay, you wouldn't know who it was. MR RAATH That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser? ADV VISSER I have no re-examination thank you Mr Chairman NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN ADV DE JAGER I just want to point out to you this affidavit on page 163 says that the person bought the car in June of '81 and six or seven months later it was stolen. That means approximately December or January '82. Can it then be that you know of a car that was stolen long after this incident? MR RAATH No I don't know. JUDGE PILLAY Mr Raath, please tell me, the body of Mr Kondile was burned. MR RAATH That's correct. He was shot while he was lying next to a tree, that's what I understood from the other witnesses, that's correct. JUDGE PILLAY Was he shot or was he burned out next to the tree or was he carried and put on a pyre? MR RAATH It was a little way from there, two or three steps, he was carried away. JUDGE PILLAY Who carried him? MR RAATH I know that I helped to carry him. JUDGE PILLAY Where on his body did you support him? MR RAATH I cannot remember. JUDGE PILLAY In any case you had an opportunity to look at this body. Can you please tell us where this person had been shot? MR RAATH I can't remember any more. I did not look at that body it was not an easy thing to do. JUDGE PILLAY You were there with the body and you are telling us that you cannot say where on his body the person was shot? MR RAATH If I had to say where he was shot then I would have to tell a lie. It was not easy for me at all. JUDGE PILLAY And while he was lying on the wood pile, while he was being burned did you not look where he was shot either. MR RAATH No I walked away and stood to the side, I did not look, not at all. JUDGE PILLAY There of the five people did not know where this man was shot. Because your other two colleagues also say they did not look. MR RAATH I did not look, I am sure. JUDGE PILLAY Thank you. ADV GCABASHE Mr Raath the trip on the 10th of August, first to Bloemfontein and then later from Barberton to Komatipoort, the first leg, PE to Bleomfontein, you were in the same car as Mr Kondile, yes? MR RAATH Up to Bloemfontein, that's correct. ADV GCABASHE What was the nature of your conversation with Kondile, was he curious about where you were going to? MR RAATH It wasn't discussed in the vehicle in my presence. ADV GCABASHE Then from Barberton to Komatipoort, he didn't ask you why you had been driving his car? Why you had left it at the side of the road? MR RAATH No he did not talk to me about that, I do not know whether he had already been informed, I have no knowledge of this. He did not discuss this with me. ADV GCABASHE If I might go back to Jeffrey's Bay. As part of Mr du Plessis team, did you too have intimate knowledge about the principal agent and the network in Lesotho? MR RAATH No it was dealt with by Capt du Plessis himself. ADV GCABASHE So you had no knowledge at all of those people? MR RAATH No. ADV GCABASHE Then the last question, I keep jumping up and down the country, back to Komatipoort and the decision to shoot Sizwe Kondile and burn him. Were you part of the conversation about burning the body? MR RAATH No. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Who gave the order that Kondile should be shot at the scene? MR RAATH I do not know who gave that instruction or order. CHAIRPERSON Who could have given the order? MR RAATH I don't know, there were three officers present and I don't know, accept it...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON The three officers being yourself, van Rensburg and du Plessis. MR RAATH No it was van Rensburg, Mr du Plessis and Mr Coetzee, they were the officers on the scene. CHAIRPERSON Yes now you remember that apparently the so-called sleeping drops or tablets were apparently administered or put in his drink by Coetzee, do you remember that? MR RAATH Yes I didn't see this myself but I saw when Coetzee gave him something to drink. CHAIRPERSON No you remember detail of that nature. Now you did not give the order to shoot, is that right? MR RAATH That's correct. CHAIRPERSON I want you to tell me who and why is it that you can't remember if you don't remember. MR RAATH I accept that it would have been Col van Rensburg because he was in command at that stage, that operation. CHAIRPERSON You see he also said that he thinks he gave the order. But before saying that he says somebody gave an order to shoot and he says he thinks it might have been him. Now that kind of evidence leaves one a bit puzzled. Were you standing close to each other at the time and if you heard somebody saying, shoot him. MR RAATH No I stood to one side, we were all sitting around the fire where we had eaten. I accept that it was Col van Rensburg because he was in charge of the whole operation. CHAIRPERSON It's unlikely that it could have been Coetzee, isn't it? MR RAATH That is true yes. CHAIRPERSON If it was Col van Rensburg who gave the order, who did he give the order to? MR RAATH I do not know, it was something that had been predetermined which the officers spoke about, I was not part of that discussion. I only say when this man stood up and shot Kondile. CHAIRPERSON Now the man that did the shooting was somebody you had not seen before? This is the first time you saw him? MR RAATH That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Do you know whether he was known to van Rensburg? MR RAATH I accept that he was yes. CHAIRPERSON Have you any reason to believe that he might be known to van Rensburg? MR RAATH Yes as he arrived there with Coetzee and Coetzee was well known to Mr van Rensburg, that's why I think that they knew one another. CHAIRPERSON If Coetzee had told this person to shoot you would have remembered that wouldn't you? MR RAATH I think so yes. CHAIRPERSON I want you to think back carefully, did this man pull out his own gun and shoot or did he borrow anybody else's gun? MR RAATH This man had jeans on with a holster at the side, he pulled out the firearm, and I accept that it was his own or a government firearm, I'm not sure. CHAIRPERSON In other words he didn't take the firearm from someone of you who was standing by? Borrow one of your firearms and then shoot, that isn't what happened? MR RAATH No. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you very much. ADV VISSER Mr Chairman if you would allow me, there are two matters arising from questioning by members of the Committee. May I just clarify. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Visser. ADV VISSER The first point is I think that the evidence is clear but I'm going to ask you about this? When Mr Kondile was shot near Komatipoort, was it daylight or what was the situation? MR RAATH It was already dark. ADV VISSER It was at night? MR RAATH Yes. ADV VISSER And the same while you took the body to the wood before you set it alight, was it darkness as well? MR RAATH Yes it was in the dark. ADV VISSER You were also asked as to whether you knew who the principal agent was about whom Mr du Plessis testified and you said no, were you aware that there were informers from the security branch who operated in Lesotho, were you aware of this or unaware of this? MR RAATH I was aware of this. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you very much. Mr Booyens are you calling any other witnesses? M BOOYENS If the Committee would just bear with me please, one aspect that we discussed, I just want to find something out from my attorney. CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV VISSER May I place my position on record in the mean time Mr Chairman just to take up the time that is being used by my learned friend. Mr Chairman we have no further evidence to present except if Mr Dirk Coetzee gives evidence, the situation changes radically because you will understand that Mr Coetzee is not implicated by these witnesses nor is Mr Danster, so we have a problem with their presence here, but be that as it may I'm not taking any point on that. But if Mr Dirk Coetzee is to be called in evidence, then obviously there would have to be cross-examination and I can tell you now that there will be at least two witnesses which we would have to call in rebuttal of his evidence. So I just want to place that on record. As far as the application is concerned properly as placed in our submission, this is the evidence which we wish to place before you. M BOOYENS Mr Chairman we are in a similar position, we may want to rebut something in the evidence of Coetzee, should Coetzee give evidence but otherwise we conclude our evidence at this stage. CHAIRPERSON Mr Moosa are you calling any witnesses? MR MOOSA Mr Chairman not at this state, we want clarity the directive that was given the last time about Mr Coetzee's evidence in which case we'd consider our position as well. CHAIRPERSON But I want to tell you now that the other people who have been dragged here will not be called to give evidence and I'm not going to permit that you know, Mr Coetzee's two companions in the previous application. Their names haven't figured here at all so I want you to know now that Tshikalanga and Nofomela will not be, I will not be calling them to give evidence. Are you calling any other witnesses. MR MOOSA We wouldn't be calling any other witness, as I say it would depend on whether Mr Coetzee is giving evidence and the question of Mr Danster would then be relevant as well. CHAIRPERSON No no no whatever they do I'm finding out whether you are calling any witnesses. MR MOOSA Yes I think I'm clear on that, I'm not calling any witnesses. CHAIRPERSON Are you calling witnesses Mr Valus. MR VALUS Yes Mr Chairman I would apply to call and I intend to call Mr Danster. CHAIRPERSON You intend to call him. Is he available. MR VALUS He is available, he will testify by means of an interpreter, his mother tongue is Xhosa. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Jansen? MR JANSEN Mr Chairman I don't intend calling any witnesses, I'm in the hands of the Committee as far as Mr Coetzee is concerned, I leave it in the hands of the Committee to decide. If the Committee has clear views on that then obviously I'm in your hands, if the Committee wants to be addressed on that, then obviously I'll address the Committee on how I assess the situation to be. CHAIRPERSON Yes. My Committee has decided that we'll adjourn now and resume at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. By that time we will make known to you Mr Jansen whether the Committee wishes to call Mr Dirk Coetzee or not. MR JANSEN Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman before you adjourn, I don't want to interrupt you but before you adjourn would you indulge me in just making one further point about Mr Coetzee please for your consideration in deciding whether you want to call him or not. Mr de Jager has offered a piece resolution here, and that is on the basis that if Mr Coetzee is not called his evidence won't be taken into account in this application and these applicants evidence won't be taken into account. That seems to us to be an eminently fair position but the problem is now Mr Chairperson...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER I didn't suggest that, I said we can't take into consideration if he's not called because then he's not being cross-examined in this case and vice versa, your people weren't cross-examined in his application so we can't use your evidence against him without affording him the opportunity. ADV VISSER I expressed myself badly but that's exactly right, the problem now is that the matter has now changed because Mr Jansen has now cross-examined our witnesses. I just want you to bear that in mind in your decision Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON This is a cricket game here where he's batted and you want a chance to bat. He's cross-examined your witnesses and therefore you want a chance to cross-examine his. ADV VISSER It really goes a little further than that, it goes to the root of the question of evidence and the acceptability of ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON We will deal with that tomorrow morning. ADV VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Then we'll arise and adjourn and resume again tomorrow morning. HEARING ADJOURNS