amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-10-28 CAPE TOWN 2 ZOLA PRINCE MABALA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54659&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/capetown/capetown_4heidel.htm ADV ARENDSE Mr Chairman, it remains for me to deal with the application of Mr Mabala, should I start now or should in the morning? CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE Mr Chairman, again written statements have been made available, I will read that into the record and also - I will read it into the record and ask Mr Mabala to confirm and also ask him a few more questions around some of the aspects raised in the written statement. CHAIRPERSON Certainly. ADV ARENDSE Mr Mabala? CHAIRPERSON Swear him in? ADV SANDI Mr Mabala, stand up to take the oath. ZOLA PRINCE MABALA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY ADV ARENDSE Mr Mabala, you say in your statement which is unsigned I was involved in four APLA operations before the Heidelberg Tavern incident. The first one was in Boipatong in Gauteng, the second one was in Heilbron in the Free State and then lastly the Nyanga East army base and Lingelethu West police station attacks. At all times the targets to be hit were only made known to me as a unit member on the day of the attack. wise to do so because I would almost certainly have killed my comrades as they were retreating from the attack on the tavern. I was however part of the unit which attacked the tavern and which caused the death of four people, I therefore take responsibility for what happened. I deeply regret causing the loss of life and causing grief to the families of the victims involved, I am sorry and I ask for their forgiveness. I believe however in the cause that I was fighting through APLA because at time the country was still being governed by a White minority. This White minority had taken the land of the African people by force and in my view and in the view of APLA as I understood it, we were to take the land back by force. I carried out the instructions of APLA to attack the Heidelberg Tavern and other targets, I did not question these instructions. I respectfully submit that my application complies with the requirements of the Act and that I have made full and proper disclosure to this Committee of my involvement in the Heidelberg Tavern incident. I respectfully request that my application for amnesty be granted. MR MABALA Correct Sir. ADV ARENDSE I will then just proceed to ask you a few questions which arise from your statement. MR MABALA You can proceed. ADV ARENDSE Thank you. Can you remember in which year it was that you passed standard seven or did you pass standard 7 immediately before you joined AZANYO? MR MABALA It was December 1989. ADV ARENDSE That you left school? MR MABALA Yes. ADV ARENDSE How did you end up in Tanzania? MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE What did you receive military training in? MR MABALA In Tanzania? ADV ARENDSE Yes. MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE Well, which aspects of the military did you receive training in - on how to use guns, how to shoot them, on what ammunition is and so on or did you also receive other kinds of training? MR MABALA I was trained in the basic course military discipline, also to use ammunition to kill, that is what I learnt there. ADV ARENDSE By the time - you said in your statement you returned to South Africa in 1992, was your military training complete by that stage? MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE And your return, was it - did you return voluntarily or were you instructed to return to South Africa? MR MABALA The time had come for me to come back, that is why I came back. ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON My feeling in the matter is that those will have to be canvassed on another occasion. ADV ARENDSE Thank you Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON waste time, has he asked for amnesty in respect of them? ADV ARENDSE Can I ask Mr Mabala? Mr Mabala, the Boipatong incident, the Heilbron incident and also the other two, Nyanga East and Lingelethu West police station, did you apply for amnesty in respect of those incidents? MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE This particular ...[intervention] MR MABALA JUDGE WILSON completely blank and so is the - he gives no reasons or any of the other requirements. There must be - it seems to me there must be another form somewhere which ...[intervention] ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA An attorney from the legal aid from Free State that the party - members of the party in the Free State had sent, this was done before the cut-off date. I went and filled in these forms and I divulged all. ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA Perhaps it is so because after I applied before the cut off date, there was confirmation that my application form has been received. I was given a letter or a paper - a confirmation that my application has been received by the Commission. This letter was brought by this attorney that had helped me fill the forms in. ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Yes, is there very much more that you have to ask in your evidence in chief? ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION - 29 OCTOBER 1997 ZOLA PRINCE MABALA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, a key has been prepared, I apologise that I have not distributed it and could two copies be made or a copy be made to the ...[inaudible] Mr Chairman, may I just say that or add that the key - the plan was extracted from the police investigation docket and the key as well, so the key and the plan come from the police investigation - the original investigation. CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR As the Commission pleases. JUDGE WILSON MR PRIOR Mr Chairman sorry, could I just have a moment to ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRIOR I do apologise. CHAIRPERSON JUDGE WILSON MR PRIOR JUDGE WILSON What the key appears to indicate in the plan that was handed in is where cartridges were found outside and where bodies were found and cartridges were found inside. MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. ADV SANDI Mr Mabala, we are just reminding you that you are still under oath, you will continue with your evidence led by Mr Arendse, your attorney. ADV ARENDSE ADV ARENDSE Mr Mabala, you remember yesterday I read back to you a prepared statement and you confirmed the contents of that statement? MR MABALA That is correct. ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA That is correct Sir. EXAMINATION BY ADV ARENDSE (cont) MR MABALA That is correct. ADV ARENDSE He also said in his statement that you and Sibeko earlier that evening stayed behind while he, Madasi, Jantjie and Maxeba had gone out to look for a car for the operation, is that right? MR MABALA That is correct Sir. ADV ARENDSE They then returned a little later that evening with this - as we now know, bottle green Opel Record, do you remember that? MR MABALA Yes, I remember Sir. CHAIRPERSON It has changed colour since yesterday, I thought it was a blue Opel Record? ADV ARENDSE Sorry, just for the record Mr Mabala, I meant a blue Opel Record not a bottle green Opel Record. MR MABALA Yes, Sir. ADV ARENDSE Now, we also heard from Gqomfa that you and Sibeko, you were waiting and that the arms and ammunition were kept in a suitcase, is that right? MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE And that in this suitcase were four R4 rifles, two AK47 rifles, one rifle grenade, two M26 hand grenades and two magazines for each of these weapons? MR MABALA That is so, Sir. ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA That is so, Sir. ADV ARENDSE According to Gqomfa, he was going to spring the attack by shooting first with his AK47, Jantjie would follow him with his R4 rifle, Sibeko would follow Jantjie with an R4 rifle, you would throw a hand grenade before Madasi shoots his rifle grenade as a withdrawal signal and that Maxeba would be the driver. MR MABALA That is so, Sir. ADV ARENDSE Now my question is then, those instructions which Gqomfa gave to you and to the others - firstly in your case, did you do what you were told to do at the Heidelberg tavern? MR MABALA Yes, I did what I was told to do. ADV ARENDSE Just be clear here, you were told to throw a hand grenade. MR MABALA I was told to launch a hand grenade however I did not do that because I saw Madasi entering the tavern, I then thought I could not throw the - launch the hand grenade whilst Madasi was inside. ADV ARENDSE So in other words, you did not do as you were instructed to do by Gqomfa who was the commander of the unit? MR MABALA Yes Sir, that is so. ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA That is correct, Sir. ADV ARENDSE Mr Chairman, here I just want to refer to the photographs which are before you and which is Exhibit A. You look at the first set of photographs on the first page, the ...[intervention} MR MABALA I can see them. ADV ARENDSE The car was driven by Maxeba, is that right? MR MABALA Correct Sir. ADV ARENDSE Where did he stop the car - if you can just indicate on the photograph there, the first one which is Exhibit 1a. MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE The car that Maxeba was driving and in which you were a passenger, where did he pull up or where did he park the car? Can you indicate on the first photograph where he parked the car? MR MABALA In front of the Heidelberg Tavern - on the first photograph. ADV ARENDSE Can you just mark it? Mr Mabala, you have indicated that the car was parked sort of - is that on the side of the curb that you see there on the photo? CHAIRPERSON You say: "on the side of the curb", are you saying alongside the curb? ADV ARENDSE Alongside the curb, yes. CHAIRPERSON That curb or the one on the other side of the road? ADV ARENDSE Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. MR MABALA It was on the side of the road. ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA Yes, it was on the road along the curb of the pavement. ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA I cannot hear clearly. ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA This is the pavement but the car was parked on the road. JUDGE WILSON Next to that pavement that you can see? Was the car parked on the same side of the road as the tavern? MR MABALA Yes, it was parked there. ADV ARENDSE Thank you Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON MR PRIOR ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA That is correct. ADV ARENDSE Now, when the car pulled up there, who got out first and when did you get out or did you get out? MR MABALA It is Luyanda who got out first, I was the last one to get out. ADV ARENDSE Where were you sitting in the car? MR MABALA I was sitting at the back seat behind the driver, I was the second one from Jantjie behind the driver. ADV ARENDSE Who was sitting in front? MR MABALA Maxeba was the driver, Madasi was sitting next to Maxeba. ADV ARENDSE And at the back? MR MABALA Luyanda, Sibeko, myself and Jantjie - there were four in the back seat. ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA Yes. ADV ARENDSE Those doors that you see there on the first photograph, they are closed as you see them there, can you remember whether they were closed as you see it there or were they open? Can you remember? MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE Can you remember whether Gqomfa and Monwabisi or Jantjie - one and the same person, can you remember whether they entered the tavern at all? MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE Can you remember anybody entering the tavern? Did you enter the tavern? MR MABALA As I said, I was meant to throw or launch a hand grenade - I saw Madasi going in. ADV ARENDSE And when you say you saw him going in, can you indicate - still on that photograph, where did you see him go in? MR MABALA Yes, Sir. ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA He entered on the small door, the one small door on the picture. ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA Yes. ADV ARENDSE Did you expect him to go in? MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE Did you launch the hand grenade at any other stage? MR MABALA Yes, when I was taught, I used to launch it when I was taught to launch hand grenades. ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA No, not that particular night. ADV ARENDSE Did you see Gqomfa and Jantjie, did you see them shooting? MR MABALA As I said Gqomfa and Jantjie were by the second door, I heard shots - I did not see what they were doing, I just heard the sounds from their weapons. ADV ARENDSE Can you remember which weapon Gqomfa was firing with? MR MABALA I cannot remember now, I had to focus on my position at the time. ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON At what stage? ADV ARENDSE Immediately Mr Chairman, he got out of the car and perhaps he could also tell us whether he moved his position after that. You got out of the car last, right? CHAIRPERSON Where did you go to when you out of the car? MR MABALA I was meant to take my position by the door, I saw Madasi - after I saw Madasi, I looked the side. ADV ARENDSE Which side? MR MABALA I want to clarify this, the principles I have learnt as a soldier are such that as Madasi went inside and next to the targets - the victims, I was left looking the other side behind. CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE I think Mr Mabala, if you could just tell us a bit more, where exactly were you looking? You were looking behind you, is there anything in particular you were looking at? MR MABALA CHAIRPERSON MR MABALA Madasi left the car before me first, he went straight ahead. CHAIRPERSON Where? MR MABALA He went towards the second door. CHAIRPERSON Did you then go towards that door as well? MR MABALA No, I did not Sir. CHAIRPERSON You saw Madasi enter the door? MR MABALA Yes Sir, I did see him. CHAIRPERSON And did you enter the door after he did? MR MABALA No, I did not Sir. ADV SANDI Which direction did you take Mr Mabala? MR MABALA As the car was parked outside, I was towards - I was at the back of the car, next to the right hand side of the door - the car door, so I was standing behind the car on the right side. ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA I was standing by the right hand side back door of the car. ADV SANDI Do you mean to say that in that way the car was between yourself and the tavern? MR MABALA Correct, Sir. ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA Yes, I was sitting directly behind the driver. ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA That is so, Sir. ADV ARENDSE Did you ever move from that position? MR MABALA No, I did not move. ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA That is so, Sir. Please repeat the question, sorry. ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA That is so, Sir. ADV ARENDSE Maxeba who was the driver, did he stay in the position in the front seat at the wheel or did he get out at all? MR MABALA He was in the car. ADV ARENDSE Where was Sibeko? MR MABALA I cannot remember where Sibeko was positioned. ADV ARENDSE In your estimation, for how long did the attack last? MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE Now, at what stage did you get back into the car? MR MABALA When I heard Madasi shouting I went back to the car. ADV ARENDSE What did he shout? MR MABALA He said we should retreat or he shouted: "retreat". ADV ARENDSE Is that the same thing as withdrawal? MR MABALA Yes, that is so Sir. ADV ARENDSE And you then say that you ended up not throwing the grenade as you were instructed to do? MR MABALA Correct, Sir. ADV ARENDSE Who got into the car last? MR MABALA Gqomfa, because when he got into the car the car was already in motion. ADV ARENDSE Can you recall whether Maxeba switched off the car when you got to the tavern? Was it on all the time, can you remember? MR MABALA The car was slightly in motion - that time the car was already in motion. ADV ARENDSE Just to complete the picture there ...[intervention] ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Arendse, can I clarify something? I think he said in Xhosa - did you say: "the car was idling"? MR MABALA Yes, it was idling already, it was idling ready to move. We did not go there to just sit there, we went there to do a job. We could not switch off the car, the car was idling the whole time. INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE As you please Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA That is correct, Sir. ADV ARENDSE Now, as you were sitting in the car you drove back to - according to Gqomfa, to Site C. Is that right - in Khayelitsha? MR MABALA That is so, Sir. ADV ARENDSE He then instructed - when you got to Site C, he instructed Madasi and Maxeba to go and abandon the car the get rid of the car? CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] ADV ARENDSE Yes. Mr Mabala, that evening before - listen carefully, before, during and after the operation, was there any other car involved in the operation that you can remember? MR MABALA No. ADV ARENDSE Was the blue Opel Record the only car that was involved in this operation, that you can remember? MR MABALA That is correct Sir. ADV ARENDSE What did you do after the operation was completed? What did you do that evening and the next day? MR MABALA I stayed. Please repeat your question? ADV ARENDSE What did you do ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Where did you go after the incident - after you got out of the car, where did you go to? MR MABALA We went back home or to the house where we were staying. Madasi and Maxeba went to abandon the car, we went the place where we stayed. ADV ARENDSE And you slept there? MR MABALA That is correct, Sir. ADV ARENDSE And the next day, what did you do? Did you go anywhere? MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE Now Mr Chairman, if I may then just continue to read from the prepared statement you have in front of you, I think I stopped at - or if I remember, I think I read the whole statement yesterday. CHAIRPERSON You have. ADV ARENDSE Thank you. Mr Mabala, you were arrested together with Madasi at Elliot, is that correct? MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE Did you wear a cap at all that evening, the evening of the attack - before, during or after the attack, did you wear a cap? MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE You remember that there was evidence in court - in the criminal case in which you were in, there was evidence that I think a blue cap was found in the car afterwards? Do you know anything about that blue cap? MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE Just in your own words, can you tell us how do you feel now about what happened? What happened was that four young people were killed - we now that. They were not members of the security forces, they were there enjoying a drink - we know that in fact only one of the four deceased was White. Now with those facts in front of you, how do you feel about what happened? MR MABALA As we were fighting - after all these people died, they lost their lives, that is tragic because we are not created to kill others. I ask for forgiveness. I would not like this to happen as it did then, however we must bear in mind that circumstances were such that we ended up involved in such actions. I ask for forgiveness to the parents and the next of kin of those who lost their lives. ADV ARENDSE Just one last aspect that I want to deal with, who did you get your instructions from in regard to the operation itself - what to do, when to do, where to do it, where did you get those instructions from? MR MABALA My commander was Luyanda, that is all I know. ADV ARENDSE Do you know a person by the name of Xuma? CHAIRPERSON How do you spell that? ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE Just one last question, do you know a person by the name of Sipho Polite? MR MABALA Yes, I know him. ADV ARENDSE How do you know him? MR MABALA He was a member of the High Command in Transkei, I actually know him from the Transkei. ADV ARENDSE Do you know whether he had anything to do with this - with the operation, with the Heidelberg Tavern operation? MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV ARENDSE JUDGE WILSON Before you start Mr Prior, can I just try to clarify? You were in the Transkei, were you? MR MABALA Correct Sir. JUDGE WILSON And who told you that you had to go and become a member a unit that was to carry out operations in the Cape? MR MABALA Nonuba. JUDGE WILSON Did he tell you personally? MR MABALA JUDGE WILSON Thank you. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Prior, just one question to clarify something from the applicant. When you say you do not know Mr Xuma, ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ADV SANDI Have you heard of him? MR MABALA ADV SANDI When you came down to Cape Town for this particular mission, was it the first time that you came to Cape Town? MR MABALA Correct Sir. ADV SANDI You have not been in Cape Town before in your life? MR MABALA No, that was my first time. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mabala, can I accept that you understand what a full disclosure means in your amnesty application? MR MABALA Please repeat the question - elaborate? MR PRIOR Do you understand what is meant by a full disclosure, to tell this Committee the truth and all the facts as they occurred in connection with the attack? MR MABALA Yes, I understand well Sir. MR PRIOR MR MABALA MR PRIOR I understand Mr Chairman, that Mr Xuma is present as an implicated person, may he possibly just stand that the witness can maybe identify him? CHAIRPERSON Is Mr Xuma present? Will you just come forward Mr Xuma? What are your full names? What are your full names? MR XUMA CHAIRPERSON I asked you for your full names, you just said Bulelani. MR XUMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Do you know this gentleman - Mr Xuma? MR MABALA I know this comrade. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you, you are excused, you can go back. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. Is it correct that Mr Xuma was at the time of the Heidelberg attack, the Director of Operations for APLA? MR MABALA The person who brought me to the Heidelberg Tavern was Nonuba only - I know Nonuba in connection with this. JUDGE WILSON MR MABALA He was a member of the High Command at the time. MR PRIOR Was he Director of Operations at that time? MR MABALA He was the member of the High Command. He was member of the High Command at the time when I came to the Heidelberg Tavern. MR PRIOR Did you see Mr Xuma at any stage before you arrived in Cape Town or while you were in Cape Town, that is just prior to the attack at Heidelberg? MR MABALA No, I did not see him Sir. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, the statement of Sipho Bulelani Xuma which was circulated, it was handed by his legal representative, may I have it marked as Exhibit C - I intend to refer to the detail of the statement? CHAIRPERSON This document which has been handed in as being the statement of Mr Xuma will be Exhibit C. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. I want to read to you the contents of paragraph 11 of the statement, please listen carefully "On behalf of the High Command of APLA in my capacity as the member or members of High Command of APLA, the Deputy Director of Operation and Head of Special Operations, I have nothing to hide, affirm unashamedly with pride that Brian Vuyisile Madasi who happened to be Unit Commander, Humphrey Luyanda Gqomfa and Zola Mabala, in an order group attended by myself and late comrade Sumiso Nonuba were given clear and loud orders to conduct attacks in Cape Town" Is that correct? MR MABALA What is your point Sir? MR PRIOR MR MABALA I cannot dispute it. MR PRIOR MR MABALA Correct, Sir. MR PRIOR And I want to put to you what appears in paragraph 12 - he goes further, he says that Is that true? MR MABALA MR PRIOR Mr Xuma certainly makes no mistake when he says that Brian Madasi was the unit commander to go to Cape Town to carry out certain attacks, now that is completely different to your evidence and the evidence of Mr Gqomfa as well as Mr Madasi. Can you explain? MR MABALA JUDGE WILSON I think it should be recorded he was pointed at Mr Gqomfa. MR MABALA JUDGE WILSON MR MABALA No English translation. CHAIRPERSON What is it? MR MABALA I did not hear clearly, I would like to communicate to you that that paragraph be read again - when I admitted to it, I did not hear clearly. JUDGE WILSON CHAIRPERSON I think he ...[intervention] Give ...[intervention] MR MABALA No English translation. CHAIRPERSON Give him a copy. MR MABALA Sir, I did not understand clearly. CHAIRPERSON I think that - let him read that paragraph, give him a copy of it and let him read it before we ask him any further questions. Have you got a copy of the statement of Mr Xuma? Just have a look - can you hand this to the witness and let him read it. You can read English? MR MABALA I will read it - can somebody read it out for me please? CHAIRPERSON Do you understand it? Have you read it? MR MABALA CHAIRPERSON ADV SANDI Are you reading this paragraph for the applicant? INTERPRETER MR PRIOR INTERPRETER We are reading the paragraph in Xhosa, we are interpreting the paragraph to the witness. CHAIRPERSON Do carry on. INTERPRETER We have finished reading the paragraph for the witness. CHAIRPERSON Do you agree with the contents of that paragraph? MR MABALA Yes, I agree with it. CHAIRPERSON MR MABALA Sir, please repeat that, what evidence of mine are you talking about that is contradictory to this paragraph? JUDGE WILSON You said you did not see Xuma before you went to Cape Town. MR MABALA I would like to put this this way, I saw Nonuba before I came to Cape Town, he took us to our transportation - I saw Nonuba. JUDGE WILSON ADV ARENDSE Mr Chairman ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON MR MABALA Sir, please repeat that. JUDGE WILSON The paragraph has been read to you where Mr Xuma says "Madasi who happened to be Unit Commander, Gqomfa and Mabala in an order group attended by myself and the late comrade Nonuba, were given clear and loud orders to conduct attacks in Cape Town" You say you agree with that? MR MABALA Correct, Sir. JUDGE WILSON Well how can you say you did not see him before you went to Cape Town? MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Right now - you will have an opportunity to re-examine him, I think he should be questioned, let him answer the questions that are put to him. MR MABALA Correct, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Yes. I think you better just proceed with the rest of your cross-examination. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. Did you ask perhaps at that occasion what these attacks were going to be or what targets were going to be attacked? MR MABALA I did not ask, I did not know who the targets were - I could not ask any questions. MR PRIOR Did anybody ask what the attacks or who the attacks, sorry - against whom the attacks were going to be launched? MR MABALA If an order from a commander is stipulated, one should just obey the order. MR PRIOR Is it not also correct that in terms of APLA policy, cadres could participate and ask questions regarding directives or orders that effected their safety or security or welfare? MR MABALA MR PRIOR Were you unaware that there was such a policy ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON ADV SANDI MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR PRIOR When you arrived in Cape Town, did you see any of your comrades that participated in the attack? In other words, did you stay with them or any of them? MR MABALA I saw then. MR PRIOR Who? Can you just tell us who they were? MR MABALA I saw Luyanda, Maxeba and Jantjie. MR PRIOR And you were all on friendly terms, is that correct? MR MABALA These are my comrades. MR PRIOR And was there any discussion at that stage whether - what the targets were going to be? MR MABALA No. MR PRIOR Were you not interested to find out where you were going to fight, who you were going to fight? MR MABALA MR PRIOR On the evening in question, what were your orders specifically? What were you supposed to do when you got to Heidelberg, that is Heidelberg Tavern? MR MABALA I was supposed to launch a grenade. MR PRIOR Is that all? MR MABALA Correct. MR PRIOR Is in not correct that you were also armed with an AK47? MR MABALA AK47? MR PRIOR Yes, an AK47, were you not armed with such a weapon? INTERPRETER Could Mr Prior wait for the interpretation please. MR MABALA JUDGE WILSON Were you armed with an AK47? MR MABALA I only had a grenade. MR PRIOR ADV ARENDSE MR PRIOR ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Will you verify that? MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRIOR But that is my note. Did you see Mr Gqomfa firing at the tavern or into the tavern at any stage on that evening? MR MABALA MR PRIOR You are unable to tell us whether he was armed with an AK47 or an R4 rifle, is that correct? MR MABALA MR PRIOR Was it not your orders to immediately lob or toss the grenade into the restaurant, that is before the rifle grenade was to be launched? MR MABALA Yes, it is an order I received to launch a grenade. MR PRIOR And were you focused on that order? MR MABALA I was focusing on that order however it happened that Madasi was in the way so to speak, this is why I could not launch this hand grenade because I was going to kill my comrade. INTERPRETER JUDGE WILSON Mr Mabala told us that an attorney had come to see him and prepared another amnesty application form for him which had been duly filed and he received notification to that effect. ADV ARENDSE I remember that Sir. JUDGE WILSON ADV ARENDSE JUDGE WILSON Thank you. ADV ARENDSE JUDGE WILSON MR PRIOR When you got out of the vehicle, did you move towards the entrance to the restaurant? MR MABALA To do what by the door of the restaurant? What was I going to do there? CHAIRPERSON Just answer the question please. MR MABALA I did not go Sir. MR PRIOR Did anyone else go into the restaurant with Mr Madasi? MR MABALA I saw Madasi only. MR PRIOR MR MABALA MR PRIOR Did you not go into the tavern? MR MABALA I did not enter the tavern, I did not enter the tavern. MR PRIOR Did Mr Sibeko enter the tavern? MR MABALA MR PRIOR MR MABALA I want to tell you one thing Sir, I was focusing on my position - it just happened that Madasi went in, then I had to shift my focus for their own safety. MR PRIOR MR MABALA MR PRIOR Is it correct that there was a balcony above the entrance to the Heidelberg Tavern, in other words there was a second story? MR MABALA MR PRIOR Can you remember whether any fire was directed to above the entrance of the tavern? Mr Chairman, at page 1 of Exhibit A, one sees a second storey - not very clearly, but I understand that there is a veranda that runs along the top and it also housed a restaurant. CHAIRPERSON Let the witness look at that photograph. MR MABALA What is your question Sir therefore? MR PRIOR Was there any fire directed at that veranda above the Heidelberg Tavern? MR MABALA MR PRIOR I want to refer you to Exhibit B and Exhibit B(1) - the sketch plan and the key. I understand that the defence have copies, could the applicant be given a copy please. May I enquire whether they have - I understand from your secretary that copies were made available. CHAIRPERSON For? MR PRIOR I simply want to ask the applicant to look at Exhibit B. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Do you have a copy in front of you of this document? MR MABALA No, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Well ...[intervention] ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Yes, I understand. ADV ARENDSE So that it complies with the requirements of the Act. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think the word: "defence" must not be used. MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Will you have a look at this document? Now, put your question Mr Prior. MR PRIOR MR MABALA MR PRIOR Were you at some stage ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON MR PRIOR No, Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER JUDGE WILSON MR PRIOR And possibly also the legal representatives of the applicants to have sight of those photographs because ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ZOLA PRINCE MABALA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Prior? ADV SANDI CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR (cont) MR MABALA CHAIRPERSON I think that the question about whether there was firing at the balcony or above the balcony was denied - he had no knowledge of it. MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR MR MABALA I cannot answer that. MR PRIOR My information is that fire was directed at patrons who were on the balcony at a night-club called: "The Planet" and if you look at photographs 17, 18 ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR PRIOR There are two bundles that are being prepared, one is for the ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Will you please before you put questions, at least make sure that he has these photographs in front of him. MR PRIOR I beg your pardon Mr Chairman. Could I ask Mr Arendse whether the bundle that was - that he has be shown to ... ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Quite right, yes. A new bundle or rather a bundle with many more photographs are now placed in front of you and questions are going to be asked about some of those photographs, so please have a look at them. And Mr Prior will you direct his attention specifically to each photograph when you put your questions? This bundle will be Exhibit D. Yes, Mr Prior? MR PRIOR JUDGE WILSON MR PRIOR MR MABALA I see them, Sir. MR PRIOR MR MABALA No English translation. MR PRIOR And do you see that there are two black lines ...[intervention] INTERPRETER Could Mr Prior wait for the interpretation please? The witness said yes, he could see the picture. MR PRIOR And do you see the places to which spot L or mark L refers - to the walls of the balcony in the vicinity of the Dulux sign? MR MABALA Yes, I can see that. MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Which photographs - 23 and 24? MR PRIOR 23 and 24 and ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Not the others? MR PRIOR Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR MR MABALA I understand. MR PRIOR MR MABALA There is nothing I can say about that. MR PRIOR And my information further is that those bullet marks were caused by people responsible for the Heidelberg attack who shot in that direction. MR MABALA MR PRIOR MR MABALA No, I cannot comment on that. MR PRIOR Would you agree that if this is so, the clubhouse sorry, or the night-club: "The Planet" was certainly not identified as a target by your group for attack on that evening, would you agree? MR MABALA I cannot answer that question. MR PRIOR What is the difficulty? MR MABALA I only know about the tavern. MR PRIOR Is it possible you never saw anyone of your group shooting at across the street because you were inside the tavern at the time, is that a possibility? MR MABALA MR PRIOR Was there any discussion later on after the attack as to any other building or any other person who had been shot at, other than the Heidelberg Tavern? MR MABALA No, Sir. MR PRIOR Mr Mabala, I want to suggest to you that you are not telling us everything that happened on that evening. MR MABALA CHAIRPERSON MR MABALA MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR MR MABALA What are you saying? MR PRIOR MR MABALA MR PRIOR MR MABALA Please repeat the question. MR PRIOR MR MABALA JUDGE WILSON MR MABALA That is correct. JUDGE WILSON So if anybody shot at the building on the other side of the road, they must have either shot over you or from just in front of where you were standing on the road close to the building, do you agree with that? MR MABALA Please repeat that Sir. JUDGE WILSON MR MABALA CHAIRPERSON MR MABALA I understand. Let me answer you as follows, I cannot dispute that - maybe they did shoot but I cannot dispute it. CHAIRPERSON MR MABALA CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. When you eventually left the scene and drove to where you parted company with Mr Madasi and Mr Maxeba and when they returned - as we have heard their evidence, was there a de-briefing, was there a discussion about the attack in order that you could report to the APLA command about what happened? MR MABALA No, Sir. MR PRIOR In the car driving away from the Heidelberg Tavern, were there any discussions about how the attack went and who did what during the attack? MR MABALA When we were going to the Heidelberg Tavern? Please repeat the question Sir. CHAIRPERSON No, after the ...[intervention] MR PRIOR Going away from the tavern. MR MABALA What did you say happened? Could you start your question from the beginning please. MR PRIOR The question is simply, when you were driving away from the scene of the attack at the tavern, was there any discussion in the vehicle who had done what, whether it was a successful mission, anything in that respect? MR MABALA No, Sir. MR PRIOR Did you ever at any stage discuss the attack with any of your colleagues, any of your comrades at any stage before you left for the Transkei? MR MABALA No, Sir. JUDGE WILSON MR MABALA Correct, but please repeat the question. JUDGE WILSON MR MABALA Correct Sir. JUDGE WILSON INTERPRETER Could the witness put the answer more clearly please? JUDGE WILSON INTERPRETER The witness please. MR MABALA Luyanda did ask me why I did not launch the hand grenade, I replied and gave him the explanation. JUDGE WILSON So there was a discussion afterwards, why have you just told us a minute ago you did discuss the attack with anyone? MR MABALA You asked if Luyanda had asked me why I had not launched the hand grenade, I therefore gave him the answer. JUDGE WILSON MR MABALA I was answering your question - I was answering your question because you said when Mr Gqomfa asked me why did not launch the hand grenade, I then gave him the answer. CHAIRPERSON I think that besides that question that was put to you, were there any other questions asked and answered by you all when you were in the car driving away - was anything else asked and answered? MR MABALA In the car we did not talk about anything. ADV SANDI ADV SANDI Mr Mabala, is there something else that you discussed in connection with the attack besides the ...[intervention] INTERPRETER Could Mr Sandi please wait for the interpretation? Could the speakers wait for the interpretation please - the speakers are not waiting for the interpretation. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] please answer your question so that the interpreter can have time. What is the answer? MR MABALA Could the question be asked again? INTERPRETER The speakers are not waiting for the interpretation. ADV SANDI On the same day ...[intervention] ADV GOZA Excuse me Mr Chair, we have a concern that there may be a reply that did not get interpreted, the interpreter complains that the speakers are not waiting for the interpreter and I am of the view that there is a response elicited which has not come through by interpretation. I would request that the Chairman directs that Mr Advocate Sandi directs his question again. ADV SANDI I will start from the beginning Mr Mabala, you said that you did not at all discuss about this matter ...[intervention] INTERPRETER The witness is not waiting for the interpretation. I think the witness and the speaker on the panel are speaking directly to each other without waiting for the interpretation - they must ask for a pause. CHAIRPERSON MR MABALA I understand. Please repeat the question, Sir. ADV SANDI After I have asked you the question please pause such that the interpretation can come through, do you understand Mr Mabala? The question is - you did not have any other discussion in connection with this attack? MR MABALA No, we did not have a discussion. ADV SANDI MR MABALA I cannot hear, what are you saying Sir? ADV SANDI No English translation. MR MABALA No English translation. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mabala, we heard evidence from Mr Gqomfa that at the robots - that is on the corner as we understand at Station Road and ...[intervention] ADV GOZA CHAIRPERSON Did you get that? MR PRIOR I follow it yes. CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR As the Chair pleases. CHAIRPERSON As part of the answer to the question: "Was there a discussion in the car"? MR PRIOR Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. So was this discussion or the question - was there any discussion further about the attack in the house - that is after you had arrived in the car? MR MABALA After we arrived - we went straight to the house, Comrade Luyanda asked me why I did not launch the hand grenade the previous day - the previous night. MR PRIOR And you told him? MR MABALA Yes, I told him. MR PRIOR Any of your other comrades - sorry, was there any other general discussion about the attack at that time? MR MABALA No, we did not. MR PRIOR Did you see the person that was shot by Mr Gqomfa at the robots - that is now before you left the area - completely left the area? MR MABALA MR PRIOR My information at this stage is that the person he shot - Mr Cerqueira was not armed but had simply come out of his restaurant to see what was going on, are you able to comment at all? MR MABALA I cannot comment on that Sir. I heard a sound, I did not know from which direction the sound came from and comrade Luyanda was shooting at that time - whether this man was armed or not, I cannot say. MR PRIOR Thank you. The hand grenade that you had in your possession, did it have wire nails glued to it? MR MABALA Yes Sir, it did have. MR PRIOR And did you glue the nails onto the grenade? MR MABALA No, I received this grenade already with these nail wires. MR PRIOR From who, who did you receive it from? MR MABALA I found the hand grenade at time we were supposed to leave. MR PRIOR Was that in the suitcase? MR MABALA Yes, it was in the suitcase. MR PRIOR Because Mr Madasi gave similar evidence yesterday, he said the rifle grenade that he was to shoot into the tavern - when he took possession of it, it already had wire nails adhered to it or glued to is, is that correct? MR MABALA That is correct. MR PRIOR I want to refer to a portion of the Judgement - page 38 Mr Chairman, of the bundle, paragraph ...[intervention] MR MABALA Which page? MR PRIOR MR MABALA INTERPRETER The witness asked for the page as well. MR PRIOR Page 38. MR MABALA Paragraph? MR PRIOR At the top of page 38, that small paragraph (b) - small (b) in Afrikaans. Do you understand Afrikaans? MR MABALA MR PRIOR INTERPRETER The passage will be interpreted. MR PRIOR "To the left behind on the floor of the vehicle a certain number of nails were found which according to Sergeant du Plessis, appeared as thought they had been coated with a jelly like or glue like material - he also collected these nails". MR MABALA We found the grenade already with these nails. MR PRIOR I also refer to page 37 of the record - that is of the bundle, where a cap - I refer to paragraph (a) at the bottom of the page Mr Chairman, a cap was found in this blue Opel and apparently hair samples were discovered and after your arrest hair samples were taken from you and those hair samples that were taken from you after your arrest matched the hair samples in the cap. Do you remember that evidence being given at your trial? MR MABALA I remember that evidence. MR PRIOR And did you see the cap when it was presented at your trial? MR MABALA They just spoke of the evidence, I did not see the cap. They said they found the cap and they also said they found my hair samples but I did not see all this. MR PRIOR And on the night of the attack you were in fact wearing a cap, is that correct? MR MABALA I was not wearing a cap, however in court it was said that the cap had my hair on it - I was also quite shocked. MR PRIOR Because the witness Sibaya in his statements refers to one of the people leaving the dark coloured car entering the white Audi, that one of them had said something to the effect that he had left his cap behind. Do you want to comment on that? MR MABALA JUDGE WILSON Are you suggesting Mr Sibaya was in this car? MR MABALA Sibaya can answer that, I cannot comment on that. MR PRIOR Finally, this gentleman Mr Cerqueira who was shot by Mr Gqomfa as you were leaving - the man at the robots, do you know why he was shot? MR MABALA I said Sir, when I was by the car before the car reached the robot, there was a sound and Luyanda was shooting - I said that already. MR PRIOR Did you see the person who Mr Gqomfa was shooting at? Did you see his face for example or anything about him? MR MABALA No, Sir. Luyanda shot but I did not see anyone. ADV GOZA MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further question. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON We accept that. MR PRIOR Sorry Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON That the shooting by - according to this witness, the shooting by Gqomfa took place after this witness had heard a shot. MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR Yes, I accept that that is the interpretation. CHAIRPERSON Have you finished? MR PRIOR Yes, Mr Chairman. Similarly to the procedure yesterday, I have not yet enquired whether any of the victims wish to answer any questions. CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR ADV ARENDSE "That shots were fired in my direction and I responded by firing shots out of the window" CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE Well, it concerns ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I understand that. ADV ARENDSE Yes? CHAIRPERSON We have that on record. Are there people present who are directly involved as victims or dependants who have questions to ask of this witness? Will you come forward please? Do sit down. What are you full names? MR JANUARY My full names are Michael January, Mr Chairman, I was a victim in the Heidelberg Tavern. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr January? MR JANUARY I have quite a few questions Mr Chairman, I will direct to Mr Mabala. You said you were sitting in the back of the car and Mr Madasi was sitting in front with Mr Maxeba, so that would mean you were sitting next to Mr Sibeko in the car, is that correct? MR MABALA Correct, Sir. MR JANUARY So you confirm Mr Sibeko was at the Heidelberg Tavern? MR MABALA Yes. MR JANUARY Did you know if Mr Sibeko had a rifle, was he given a rifle to use in the attack? MR MABALA Yes, he had a rifle. MR JANUARY Okay, you have further testified that you returned to Khayelitsha after the attack and you returned to a house there, do you know whose house this was? MR MABALA It was our meeting point where we usually gathered. MR JANUARY MR MABALA MR JANUARY Was there any people at this house waiting for you when you returned from the Heidelberg Tavern? MR MABALA No, it was only us. MR JANUARY MR MABALA MR JANUARY Mr Chairman, will I be allowed to question Mr Gqomfa regarding the return of the weapons and to who he returned the weapons to? CHAIRPERSON Just finish the questions you have to ask of this witness. MR JANUARY Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further question to this particular witness Mr Chairman, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANUARY CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Is there anybody else who wishes questions to be asked of this witness? Please state your full names for purposes of the record. MR CORNELIUS Quinton Cornelius. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS MR MABALA MR CORNELIUS As I was lying on the floor inside the tavern, I heard definite and separate fire from two different rifles inside the tavern. There were six of you in the attack, you at the vehicle, Gqomfa and Jantjie outside, Madasi inside and the driver - that accounts for five, where was the sixth person? MR MABALA Please repeat that question Sir. MR CORNELIUS From my recollection which is quite clear as I did not faint or anything inside, I heard two separate rifle fire shots shot from two separate rifles inside the tavern very, very close from us. There were six of you, five have more or less been accounted for, yourself outside by the vehicle, the driver, Gqomfa and Jantjie in front of the tavern, Madasi inside, where was the sixth person? MR MABALA The driver is the sixth person. MR CORNELIUS MR MABALA Let me count for you, it was myself Gqomfa, Monwabisi, Sibeko ...[intervention] MR CORNELIUS Monwabisi - what was his other name? MR MABALA Jantjie. MR CORNELIUS Right. MR MABALA It was myself, Gqomfa, Monwabisi, Sibeko - myself, Gqomfa - okay, myself, Madasi, Maxeba the driver, Monwabisi, Sibeko, Luyanda - six. MR CORNELIUS I do not understand where Sibeko was. CHAIRPERSON What is the question you wish to put? MR CORNELIUS MR MABALA MR CORNELIUS Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Are there any other persons wishing to put questions? Yes, please come forward and just place your full name on the record. MR FOURIE "Less the context states otherwise" CHAIRPERSON MR FOURIE Whose vehicles were used and how did you get them? MR MABALA Sir, please repeat the question. MR FOURIE CHAIRPERSON MR MABALA No, Sir. CHAIRPERSON In Heilbron, was a motorcar used? MR MABALA No, Sir. CHAIRPERSON And Free State? MR MABALA I have counted only two places. CHAIRPERSON MR MABALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Nyanga East, was there a vehicle used? MR MABALA Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON What vehicle was that? MR MABALA It was a Toyota Conquest. CHAIRPERSON You may put your question about ...[intervention] MR FOURIE Whose Toyota Conquest did you use? MR MABALA It belonged to a firm "Operation Hunger". MR FOURIE Did you steal the vehicle in order to do that? MR MABALA Yes, it was stolen. MR FOURIE Thank you. And in the other attack in Lingelethu, did you also use a vehicle? MR MABALA The same ... MR FOURIE Did you use the same vehicle? INTERPRETER Could the speaker wait for the interpretation? CHAIRPERSON MR MABALA That is correct, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR FOURIE Thank you. Referring to your request for amnesty - sorry, I must just go back one, in paragraph 7 in your affidavit you say "At the time I did not think it wise to do so" Do you recall writing that or stating that? It refers to why you did not throw the hand grenade. CHAIRPERSON What is the question? MR MABALA Please repeat the question. MR FOURIE "At the time I did not think it wise to throw the hand grenade because it would almost certainly have killed my comrades as they were retreating from the attack on the tavern? Do you remember saying that? MR MABALA Yes, I remember that. MR FOURIE MR MABALA What do you meant I was afraid for my own safety? I was meant to launch the hand grenade inside, not outside the tavern - Madasi was ahead of me inside, this is why I did not launch the hand grenade. MR FOURIE MR MABALA Madasi was inside, I could not launch the hand grenade. MR FOURIE Okay, how far inside? Do you remember? MR MABALA MR FOURIE Alternatively, did you perhaps see that the people in the tavern were not the people that you say you should have expected to see in the tavern? MR MABALA Sir, the order was such that we should go to the tavern. MR FOURIE MR MABALA MR FOURIE MR MABALA MR FOURIE MR MABALA First of all, Nonuba was the one who led to our coming here ...[intervention] MR FOURIE CHAIRPERSON MR FOURIE You keep telling us that you are or you were a soldier trained to carry out orders and that you were told to do certain things including killing people, you claimed to have been involved in various operations and you remember the details of them. My question now is why can you not now remember a simple detail yet a very important one regarding remember when you saw Mr Xuma and where and under what circumstances? MR MABALA Sir, I said Mr Xuma is a member of the High Command, however it is comrade Nonuba who sent us to Cape Town - Nonuba takes order from comrade Xuma. MR FOURIE MR MABALA Who was the Director of Operations? Repeat the question please. MR FOURIE MR MABALA Mr Xuma is the leader, the member of the High Command - Nonuba received orders from Mr Xuma. MR FOURIE CHAIRPERSON MR MABALA Yes. MR FOURIE MR MABALA MR FOURIE Thank you and I must commend you on your - on restraining your apparent agitation this time but previously I noticed that you were very, very, distressed. Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FOURIE CHAIRPERSON Are there any other persons wishing to put questions - implicated persons or victims? Will you place your full name on the record please? MR BRODE My name is Benjamin Brodie, I would like to put a question to Mr Mabala. Mr Mabala, you said that you did not see Mr Cerqueira when he was shot at, is that true? MR MABALA MR BRODE MR MABALA MR BRODE When you heard a shot, what did you do? MR MABALA What sound are you talking about, what noise? What sound are you talking about Sir? MR BRODE MR MABALA You mean - I was in the car, there was nothing I could do, I was in the car. I would be also shot but there was nothing I could do, I was in the car when I heard the noise. MR BRODE MR MABALA MR BRODE CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] is that he heard a sound which sounded like gunshot, Mr Gqomfa his companion - he then heard Mr Gqomfa firing in the direction from which that sound came. JUDGE WILSON No, he said he heard a second shot before Gqomfa fired. CHAIRPERSON MR FOURIE Could I repeat that or ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR BRODE Or re-repeat? CHAIRPERSON Yes. Just listen to me, when you were in the car and you were moving away - before you saw your colleague Mr Gqomfa fire, how many shots did you hear? MR MABALA CHAIRPERSON MR BRODE Were the windows of the car rolled down or rolled up? MR MABALA CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR BRODE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRODE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. UNKNOWN PERSON The next witness who wants to put a question to the applicant is Roland Palm. MR PALM CHAIRPERSON MR PALM MR MABALA MR PALM CHAIRPERSON MR PALM MR MABALA MR PALM So in other words, you are satisfied with the Government of today? MR MABALA MR PALM NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PALM CHAIRPERSON Is there anybody else who wishes to put questions? MR FOURIE Thank you Mr Chairman. When Mr Brode was speaking my memory was jogged a little and I just have one question for Mr Mabala. Did you refer to "Ikiwa" when a question was put to you about Mr Cerqueira, the person who was shot and killed outside the tavern? MR MABALA No English translation. MR FOURIE Did you use the word "Ikiwa" or "Amakiwa"? MR MABALA No Sir, no. MR FOURIE MR MABALA No. MR FOURIE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR JANUARY Mr Chairman, Michael January again ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR JANUARY CHAIRPERSON MR JANUARY I do have a specific questions to ask him Mr Chairman. Mr Mabala, you indicated that you did not know the name Bulelani Xuma yet you recognised the face when Mr Xuma came forward. Did you know him by any other name? MR MABALA MR JANUARY Do I understand that to mean that you do know him by another name? MR MABALA Yes, Sir. MR JANUARY What other name do you know Mr Xuma by? MR MABALA MR JANUARY Thank you Mr Mabala. CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Yes, proceed. RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV ARENDSE Mr Mabala, you left for the - you left the Transkei for Cape Town from Nkobo in the Transkei on the 13th of November 1993, is that right? MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE MR MABALA CHAIRPERSON What is this Mr Arendse, what is he talking about a refreshing? ADV ARENDSE Yes, I want to come to that. You recall that Gqomfa your comrade made reference to you and him and Maxeba and Jantjie attending a refresher course in October 1993 at Tsolo, is that the refresher that you are talking about? MR MABALA That is so. ADV ARENDSE So, with the answer to the question: "When did you meet Xuma before you left for Cape Town", would that answer be in October 1993 at Tsolo before you left for the Transkei? MR MABALA That is so, Sir. ADV ARENDSE Just for the record, did Xuma give you any specific instruction in regard to Heidelberg - did he mention Heidelberg tavern to you? MR MABALA ADV ARENDSE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Just swear him in. ADV SANDI HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr January, you wanted to ask a question of applicant number one, is that correct? MR JANUARY Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please do. MR JANUARY Mr Gqomfa, my questions relate to the return of the weapons after the attack. When you returned the weapons, to whom exactly did you return the weapons? MR GQOMFA We gave them back to comrade Dala. MR JANUARY MR GQOMFA We gave them back to comrade Dala. MR JANUARY Thank you. Was there anyone else present with Mr Dala when you returned the weapons? MR GQOMFA No, he was the only one at the house. MR JANUARY Did Mr Dala check the weapons when you returned it to him? MR GQOMFA MR JANUARY So you left the closed suitcase with Mr Dala? MR GQOMFA What suitcase are you talking about? MR JANUARY I understood that you returned the weapons in a suitcase. MR GQOMFA Yes, the weapons were in a suitcase when we returned them. MR JANUARY Okay thank you. And Mr Dala did not open the suitcase to verify that the weapons were in the suitcase? MR GQOMFA MR JANUARY Thank you very much for answering those questions Mr Gqomfa. Thank you again Mr Chairman, for the opportunity. MR GQOMFA Thank you. ADV SANDI Mr Mabala, I just have one or two questions to ask you to ensure that we have a clear picture as to what you are talking about. Let us start off with the military training you received. Yesterday afternoon when you started giving evidence, you said amongst the things you were taught whilst undergoing military training was military discipline, can you explain very briefly what you mean by that? MR MABALA ADV SANDI You also said you were taught to kill - you were trained to kill, who was to be killed? MR MABALA You must remember that I did not join APLA to just kill anyone - you must remember how it was before, something within me evoked such, every Black person who was oppressed must have felt the same way. When I joined APLA I went to be trained and also to learn the skill and use it, I went to learn the skill that was used to free the people. ADV SANDI I will refer you to a statement by Sandile Gerald Nchikelana, do you know that name? INTERPRETER We were just requesting the witness to move further away from the mike. MR MABALA Could you repeat the question please? ADV SANDI Can you provide him with the bundle - the record, page 81. Have you got page 81 in front of you? MR MABALA Yes. ADV SANDI MR MABALA ADV SANDI Maybe you know him by some other name but he says he was one of the people who were involved in the higher echelons - it would appear from his statement, in the higher echelons of APLA. Now he says at paragraph 16 - can you see paragraph 16? MR MABALA Yes, I see it. ADV SANDI "These attacks which took place were primarily aimed at Whites, South African police, military, informers of the police" Was that your understanding as a member of APLA? MR MABALA ADV SANDI Let us go back to 1992 when you returned to the country, you came back to the country in 1992? MR MABALA That is correct. ADV SANDI MR MABALA Please remember Sir, that when you go away you live under orders, you must remember that is was a command that was elicited that led to my coming back, therefore these people must have seen that I was ready to come back and fight - it was time for me to come back home. ADV SANDI MR MABALA As I had completed my training I was supposed to come home and then I was supposed to be told here at home what is going to happen thereafter. ADV SANDI MR MABALA Sir, it is the man who gave the command who - please repeat the question. ADV SANDI When you were told to be part of the group that was going to do this attack at the tavern, was it your understanding that Whites were going to be killed there? MR MABALA ADV SANDI Is that to say that you did not know who or what was to be attacked and why? MR MABALA Sir, as we were deployed, it is the commander who knows the specifics - he was given more details, he can answer that question. ADV SANDI Thank you Mr Mabala, no further questions. JUDGE WILSON MR MABALA Even though I was there I did not take part in it. JUDGE WILSON But you were one of the unit that did attack the military camp? MR MABALA I was one of the people that were there Sir. JUDGE WILSON And who were the targets there, did you know? Where they any particular racial group? MR MABALA It is the police that were being attacked - the soldiers. JUDGE WILSON So that same held good on the attack on the police station, you were just attacking policemen in general, is that so? MR MABALA JUDGE WILSON MR MABALA That is correct, Sir. JUDGE WILSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much. Mr Arendse, are you calling any other witnesses? ADV ARENDSE Thank you Mr Chairman. We do not propose to call any witnesses or lead any further evidence in support of the applications Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo, what is the position as far as you are concerned? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, at this stage we are not going to call our client, our client is not going to give ...[indistinct] evidence. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Prior?