amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS CAPE TOWN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54662&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/capetown/capetown_5heidel.htm CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Prior? MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, the witness Sibaya is available, would this be an opportune moment to call him as I understand that Miss Qunta is present for that purpose. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Where will he give evidence from? MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, I understand what occurred in a previous hearing or amnesty application - from the chair behind the applicants. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibaya, will you come forward? CHAIRPERSON Ask him for his full names. INTERPRETER We request that the interpreters be given a moment to change booths because of the position of the witness. CHAIRPERSON ADV SANDI No English Translation. MR SIBAYA Yes, I can hear. ADV SANDI Could you give us your full names please? MR SIBAYA Bennet Sibaya. INTERPRETER Could the witness please repeat that. MR SIBAYA Bennet Sibaya, I stay at NY72 number 52. ADV SANDI Could you please stand up Mr Sibaya. We are going to swear you in Sir. INTERPRETER ADV SANDI The witness has been sworn in. COMMITTEE ADV SANDI MR SIBAYA Yes, That is so, Sir. ADV SANDI Will you please get up when you are taking the oath. BENNET SIBAYA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Sibaya ...[intervention] MS QUNTA INTERPRETER If we could be given a moment, the interpreters are having a problem with the equipment in this booth - please? Thank you, we may proceed. MS QUNTA As I was saying Mr Chairman, I would like to be given the opportunity to say something before the witness is being led by Mr Prior, with your permission. CHAIRPERSON Why? MS QUNTA CHAIRPERSON Yes, please do. MS QUNTA Thank you Mr Chairman. I will draw the attention of the Committee to Section 19(2). That refers to the Committee investigating an application for amnesty and it says that in respect of an investigation carried out under Section 19, the provisions of Sub-Section - of Section 30 Sub-Section 2 should be complied with. Now that Section 30(2) deals with a person who is implicated in an application for amnesty and I will read Section (a) of Sub-Section 2 "If during any investigation by or any hearing before the Commission, any person is implicated in a manner which may be to his detriment" And I want to emphasise the word: "to his detriment" in (a). (b): "The Commission contemplates making a decision which may be to the detriment of a person who has been so implicated" CHAIRPERSON Mr Prior? MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Is he implicated in the commission of the offence by the applicants? MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON So the decision to issue a notice was done by you but by Mr Mpshe? MR PRIOR It was done in consultation with all the senior officials of the Amnesty Department. CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR Certainly Mr Chairman, it says "If during any investigation...." CHAIRPERSON Is there anything else you wish to say? MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Well, not at this stage but at - is that your complete answer? MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Before the Committee adjourns to consider this matter, is there anything else you wish to say? MS QUNTA And I will go through that Mr Chairman, what I would like to say now and raise this with - none of the applicants here - and they were asked by their counsel, none of them knew Mr Ntsebeza except perhaps from - as one of the applicants said, from the television that he is connected with the Truth Commission. Each of the applicants said they had no dealings with an Audi, so the people who are here who are directly involved in that attack have said they do not know. JUDGE WILSON MS QUNTA Mr Chairman, it is one aspect of evidence. I can imagine that the Amnesty Committee will sit for the next five years if when they conduct an investigation ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Why do you say such horrible things? MS QUNTA Mr Chairman, I imagine that the Committee will sit for the next five years if when there is an incident and an investigation, that each and every statement which mentions a person - no matter how flimsy and how unsubstantiated the evidence is, that each and every person must be notified and be brought before the court. And what is particularly regrettable in this instance is that it has been done in such a way which raises certain inferences with regard to my client and his involvement with this which I think is very unfortunate. CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR Mr Chairman sorry, may I be of some assistance? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRIOR The second bundle of documents, the supplementary bundle at page 6, if I can bring that to your attention. CHAIRPERSON Just hold it. Yes? MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON No, you just refer us to it. MS QUNTA Could I just get clarification Mr Chairman - Mr Prior, what is he referring to - which bundle? MR PRIOR The supplementary bundle, page 6 of that bundle. CHAIRPERSON MS QUNTA CHAIRPERSON You will have that. MS QUNTA CHAIRPERSON This is a document headed: "Report of the Investigative Unit (Final)", dated 8 September 1997, do you have that document? MS QUNTA I will - yes, Mr Chairman, I have it and that is investigator John Lubbe. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS QUNTA I do have that. CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR To paragraph 5 - that was supplied to Miss Qunta some time ago. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRIOR And it simply says that efforts were made to corroborate or to check with the applicants but any interview was refused without a PAC delegation being present, so Mr Lubbe certainly attempted to verify the accuracy of what Mr Sibaya was saying with the applicants before the hearing. CHAIRPERSON The Committee will adjourn to consider this matter. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION BENNET SIBAYA (s.u.o.) ADV ARENDSE Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Arendse? ADV ARENDSE I wanted to say something just before the Committee adjourned to consider this issue - I just want to mention two things, may I do so? CHAIRPERSON Very well. ADV ARENDSE JUDGE WILSON CHAIRPERSON JUDGE WILSON ADV ARENDSE JUDGE WILSON ADV ARENDSE ADV SANDI ADV ARENDSE With respect, I ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Miss Qunta, do you have reference to that Appellate Division Judgment with you here? MS QUNTA ADV ARENDSE Mr Chairman, then the other aspect is that ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I wish these arguments had been addressed to us before we adjourned. ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Is that so? ADV ARENDSE Yes. MS QUNTA CHAIRPERSON MS QUNTA Yes. Mr Chairman, sorry? CHAIRPERSON Your client has not been compelled to come here, do you understand? I have before me the notice which was served on him in terms of Section 19.4, it says "Take further notice that as a person implicated in the application, you have the right to be present and to be represented by a legal representative at the hearing and to testify, adduce evidence and submit any article to be taken into consideration" MS QUNTA With respect Mr Chairman, I really would not like to engage in a long debate about this but it is very important for my client, particularly in view of the standing of client in the community. CHAIRPERSON "That you have been implicated, you have a right" MS QUNTA CHAIRPERSON CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ntsebeza, is it correct that you made a statement ...[intervention] ADV SANDI Mr Sibaya. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibaya. MR SIBAYA Are you referring to me? EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR Mr Sibaya, is it correct that you made a statement to the murder and robbery unit in Bellville South on the 5th of January 1994? MR SIBAYA That is correct Sir. MR PRIOR And during August of 1997, you were interviewed by a Mr John Lubbe who was an investigator with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission - the Amnesty Committee and you made a statement as result of his investigation? MR SIBAYA That is correct Sir. MR PRIOR MR SIBAYA About what happened that day, is that where you want me to start? MR PRIOR Start from the beginning yes. Tell us where you were, when you were there, what time you were there and what you saw. INTERPRETER The interpreter did not hear the first few words. CHAIRPERSON Please ...[intervention] MR SIBAYA It was in 1993 on the third year, we were in Guguletu with my friend. I was going to visit my girlfriend but I did not know the area well so I got a bit lost. We eventually ended up in a house where we asked a lady ...[intervention} INTERPRETER Could the witness please slow down. MR PRIOR Mr Sibaya, could you just slow down a little bit. Yes, you said you went to Guguletu, you were looking for your girlfriend where she stayed and you got lost in that area. MR SIBAYA The taxi driver did not know the area well - it was the first time I had gone there, it was after midnight. We were supposed to go to NY141, we ended up in 114. When you go to 129 you go across 115 so we also ended up in 129, is that clear? MR PRIOR Yes. Where did your girlfriend stay? What was the address you were looking for? MR SIBAYA MR PRIOR Do you have a statement in front of you? MR SIBAYA Yes, I have. MR PRIOR Are you referring to that statement? MR SIBAYA CHAIRPERSON Yes, just continue to tell us what happened. MR SIBAYA INTERPRETER Could the witness please slow down. CHAIRPERSON Just slow down so that the interpreter can interpret. MR SIBAYA May I continue? CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may continue. MR SIBAYA I knocked at the door of the house, a lady opened and she directed me to 141, she then told me that that was NY129. We realised that we were mistaken, I then went back to my friend telling him that we should give up - went back to the combi. I did not know this area very well, it had been the first time I had gone there. MR PRIOR Yes, proceed. MR SIBAYA When I went to my friend - as we were leaving, we were giving up. It was at night, I saw these children coming - I thought they had pipes in their hands however when they were closer I realised that those were not pipes but weapons. MR PRIOR Just stop there. Yes, you noticed these were weapons? MR SIBAYA When they were far from me I thought these were pipes but when they came closer, I realised that these were guns. I then said to my friend that - my friend, that they must hide in the combi, I also tried to hide. They then put these weapons in the white car. After they had put the weapons in, they argued. They were not talking loudly however the one said Madasi you forgot the cap in the car, I did not know what car they spoke of. The car then left, there were people in the car and some were left behind. This car - the lights were not switched on, the brakes were applied and then I saw the registration. I then committed this to memory ...[intervention] MS QUNTA CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibaya, please try and talk sufficiently slowly so that notes can be made of what you are saying. MR SIBAYA Where should I start? CHAIRPERSON Carry on from where you were. MR SIBAYA We then waited so that they go away. After a while I noticed that where the car was there was a paper, I picked it up and read it. I realised that these people did not know their destination. This paper had a map on it, it was a map to Heidelberg ...[intervention] INTERPRETER The interpreter did not hear the details of the map. JUDGE WILSON CHAIRPERSON I think there is a danger in leading him. JUDGE WILSON MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, if the witness could look in my direction then I could possibly give him an indication to stop or pause. CHAIRPERSON MR SIBAYA I will start where I left off. MR PRIOR You were telling the Committee that you noticed that there was a paper that was dropped, you picked it up and you saw that there were certain things written on that paper. Just tell us slowly what was written on the paper. MR SIBAYA It was a map that when you leave Observatory, you turn right then you go past Hartleyvale Stadium. MR PRIOR Please look at me - continue, continue. MR SIBAYA After Hartleyvale you turn left, you go past a bridge and after the bridge Heidelberg is on your right. MR PRIOR What did you do with this paper? MR SIBAYA I gave the paper to the Guguletu police. MR PRIOR Before you went to Guguletu police, what was the next thing that happened after you had picked up the paper? MR SIBAYA We were already leaving when I picked the paper up, we were going to the police. MR PRIOR Yes? MR SIBAYA Our statement was such that a car was being stolen and ammunition from the soldiers was being stolen. Our destination was then disturbed because we had to go to the police. MR PRIOR MR SIBAYA That is what I thought. The darker car I could not see, I only saw it or noticed it when they were getting out of the car. Another matter was that the white car did not have a Cape Town registration. I thought that perhaps this car belonged to people that were travelling and it was being stolen at the time, or had been stolen. MR PRIOR Did you notice the registration of the white car? MR SIBAYA The white car? MR PRIOR Yes. MR SIBAYA I memorised it, I know it to this day. MR PRIOR Tell us. MR SIBAYA Pardon? MR PRIOR Tell us please. MR SIBAYA The white car was XA12848, did you hear that? MR PRIOR Yes, thank you. MR PRIOR You say you noticed a dark coloured vehicle and you noticed these boys or these children as you referred to them, getting out of that vehicle? MR SIBAYA I only noticed the darker car when they were getting out of the car. I saw the white car because it was - the colour was light enough to see. Another thing, the white car was facing towards the South and the darker car towards the north, however they were quite a distance from each other. MR PRIOR From that point when the white car had moved off, where did you then go? MR SIBAYA MR PRIOR Just slow down. Was that to the Guguletu police station? MR SIBAYA We were already there yes. Our report or statement to the police was that a car belonging to soldiers was stolen together with weapons. I showed them this piece of paper, I also told them that the other car was not from Cape Town - perhaps it had been stolen as well. MR PRIOR Did you give them the paper? MR SIBAYA I gave them the paper. MR PRIOR What was their reaction to this information? MR SIBAYA They said that there is no Heidelberg there, Heidelberg is up country. MR PRIOR Yes, then what happened? MR SIBAYA They then also said that the soldiers would not just leave their weapons in the car. MR PRIOR Yes, and then what happened? MR SIBAYA MR PRIOR Did you then leave? MR SIBAYA We were told to go home and sleep because we were drunk they said. When I came back from work ...[intervention] MR PRIOR So did you go home? Did you go home after that? MR SIBAYA I went home to sleep. MR PRIOR All right, then what was the next thing that happened? MR SIBAYA After work my children said a man from the murder and robbery unit came and was looking for me. INTERPRETER The witness is going too fast. MR PRIOR Just slow down please, Mr Sibaya. MR SIBAYA He said that I would be in trouble, I must go to the police station, they want to ask me a few questions. MR PRIOR Do you know who this policeman was, can you remember his name - if he gave it? MR SIBAYA MR PRIOR Now this policeman that came looking for you, did you go with them or did you go to the police station as a result of his visit? What is the position? MR SIBAYA This man came to pick me up the next day. MR PRIOR Yes. INTERPRETER MR SIBAYA He took me to Bellville South police station. MR PRIOR Had you ever been there before? MR SIBAYA No English translation. MR PRIOR Had you ever been there before? MR SIBAYA It was the first time - that day. MR PRIOR Right, what happened at Bellville South on that day? MR SIBAYA I was told to give details of what I saw that night. A few days had elapsed - I told them, they said that I must go fetch my friend - he refused. MR PRIOR Who refused? MR SIBAYA Mazibuko refused totally. MR PRIOR Was Mazibuko with you on the evening you saw this white vehicle with an XA registration? MR SIBAYA MR PRIOR All right, so he refused to come to the police station? MR SIBAYA Yes, he totally refused. MR PRIOR Did you make a statement on that occasion - to the police at Bellville South? MR SIBAYA I told them everything that I had seen that night. MR PRIOR Were you able to describe any person that you saw in the street, at or near either the dark vehicle or the white coloured vehicle? MR SIBAYA I said to the police there was people that arrived with weapons. I could not identify them because it was dark. I just heard one of them saying: "Madasi, you left a cap in the car". However, the one we had found in the car I told them it was a well built man. MR PRIOR MR SIBAYA MR PRIOR Yes. MR SIBAYA MR PRIOR What sort of lighting was there to have identified - as you say you did, the person who was between 29 and 30, stockily built and so on? How did you see him - under what lighting? MR SIBAYA MR PRIOR Were you ever asked to go on an identification parade by the police? MR SIBAYA No. Mr Segal said that my statement was not clear, they could not get the car, the registration was probably false he said. However, he did come and fetch me from my home, took me to a judge and they said to me that they could not find this car - my statement was not clear they said. MR PRIOR Where was this Judge that you refer to, which ...[intervention] MR SIBAYA I think it was a man helping the Judge, an advocate perhaps. They said that I was not needed because my statement was not clear. My friend has passed away and had passed away - he was attacked. MR PRIOR When had Mr Mazibuko passed away? MR SIBAYA Three weeks after we were there. MR PRIOR Is that after you had seen the white vehicle at Guguletu? MR SIBAYA Correct. MR PRIOR How did he pass away? MR SIBAYA Apparently he was shot by youngsters in Khayelitsha - he was in his combi, the one we were using that night. They shot him and left him there. MR PRIOR Now you say, sorry - did you attend the trial of the three applicants in the Supreme Court in Cape Town? MR SIBAYA Which people are you talking about? MR PRIOR The applicants before the Committee in respect of the Heidelberg Tavern case. MR SIBAYA I did not go, I was told not to go - Mr Segal said I was not needed. MR PRIOR Please look at the statement which is marked 85, 86 and 87, look at page 87, can you identify that signature? MR SIBAYA That is my signature. MR PRIOR MR SIBAYA That is my signature. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Yes, I understand. ADV ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Ms Qunta? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS QUNTA Mr Sibaya, can I ask you how old you are? MR SIBAYA I was born in June 1940. MS QUNTA And your - where did you - at the time of this incident when you saw this vehicle, where were you living? MR SIBAYA At NY72, number 52. MS QUNTA And for how long had you been living there? MR SIBAYA A long time. MS QUNTA In terms of years, are you able to give me an idea in terms of years? How many years, two years, four years, ten years, twenty years? MR SIBAYA Three years. MS QUNTA And prior to that Mr Sibaya, where were you living? MR SIBAYA Before, I was staying at Zone 5, Langa. MS QUNTA Okay, and for how long were you staying there - at zone 5? MR SIBAYA More than ten years. We then had to go find our own places when residence ended there. MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA No. MS QUNTA Now, how - you say in your statement, on the night of the 30th you arrived in the vicinity where you saw this vehicle - this white vehicle, how did you get there? MR SIBAYA We had been getting lost for quite a while trying to find NY141. MS QUNTA And how did you get there though? How did you get to the place where you found this white vehicle? MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA Was the combi also used as a taxi? What did he do with the combi, was it a private vehicle? MR SIBAYA Yes it was a taxi, he used it as a taxi. MS QUNTA Okay. And where did he rank - where was the taxi used, between what were his routes? MR SIBAYA Wynberg/Constantia route. MS QUNTA And where did your friend live? MR SIBAYA He stayed in Philippi - Zinyoka. MS QUNTA So his route was between Constantia and Wynberg - from where, from Philippi or from Guguletu? MR SIBAYA He would move from Wynberg to Constantia only. MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA Mr Segal said that if Mazibuko refused to make a statement, there was no need. MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA They said that he did not want to be a part of this, therefore I should not mention him. MS QUNTA When did you find out that Mr Mazibuko did not want to be a part of this? MR SIBAYA When the policeman came to me saying that I should go to the police station, I went to Mazibuko and told him. Mazibuko then said I must not mention his name because he does not want to give a statement or did not want to give a statement. MS QUNTA And so you told the police that Mazibuko said you should not mention his name, you told Mr Segal that? MR SIBAYA Yes, I told him and said that we must leave him if he does not want to give a statement. MS QUNTA Now, why did you then mention Mazibuko so fully in your second statement to Mr Lubbe when Mr Lubbe came to you and now in your evidence you speak very freely of Mr - of your friend? MR SIBAYA What do you mean by freely? MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA It is not myself who did not want to mention his name, it is the police that said I must leave his name out. MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA He did not say that I must not talk about Mr Mazibuko. MS QUNTA So in other words you mention Mr Mazibuko - I want to find out why did you then decide to mention him in the second statement? CHAIRPERSON Well, in the first statement he was told by the police not to mention his name. MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA Mr Sibaya, you say you live in NY72 or at the time you lived in NY72, number 52? MR SIBAYA Yes. MS QUNTA And you say you were not familiar with the area that you were going to - NY141, is that correct? MR SIBAYA Correct. MS QUNTA And Mr Mazibuko also did not know? MR SIBAYA He did not know it well. MS QUNTA Okay. Now, in the statement you made on the 5th of January, you said you proceeded down NY113 and that NY113 faces NY115, do you recall saying that? MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA We entered at 110, I saw NY113, 114 and 115 however, as we were turning the last time I did not know this street well, the person I asked at the car said it is - or at the house, said it was 129. MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA No English translation. MS QUNTA NY113. MR SIBAYA We entered 113, went down the road and up the road again. What I remember clearly is that as we were at 115 leaving 113, we entered a street that I did not know, this is why we had to ask. That lady then said it was NY129, she said that 114 was just ahead of 115. CHAIRPERSON MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA "When we turned into NY113, the street was quiet. I noticed a white Audi motorcar which was parked on the Northern side of NY113 facing NY115" You see, from what you say there it sounds like you are pretty certain about where you went - once you had got to that street, you at least recognised those streets. MR SIBAYA No, I did not know this street, the owner of the house where I knocked at told me. I saw NY113 when we entered, it is the owner who told me that it was NY129 that we were at. MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA Mr Segal went with me so that I could point out during the day where this all had occurred - he was together with other police. He then pointed at 113, he said that it is 129 it was not 113. If I could go there myself I could point these places out to you. MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA I saw 113 as we entered, we went down the road, we turned and I say NY115. When we entered the other road after 115, I no longer knew what road we were on. We asked this lady where 114 was, she told me. Mr Segal then said the place where this all occurred was not 113 but 129 in agreement with the lady we had asked for directions. MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA We entered through 113, went down the road ...[intervention] MS QUNTA Sorry, sorry to interrupt you, I just want us to stop at 113 - how did you know you were entering 113, did you see it or were you told the next day by Mr Segal that this was 113. MR SIBAYA I saw that it was 113. ADV SANDI Sorry, Miss Qunta, can I interrupt for a minute? When you say Mr Sibaya, you that it was 113, what do you mean? Was there a street sign here, was there a symbol that this is 113? MR SIBAYA It was written NY113. CHAIRPERSON MS QUNTA Mr Sibaya, you also say there that 113 faces NY115, did you see that in the evening? Was that what you saw in the evening you were there - on the 30th? MR SIBAYA What? MS QUNTA Sorry. 133 you say - you told the police on the 5th of January that you went into NY113 and NY113 faces NY115. JUDGE WILSON Does he say that or does he say that the vehicle parked on the Northern side of NY113, was facing 115? MS QUNTA ...[inaudible] I still want to pursue that question. Now you say the vehicle was parked in NY113 and it faced ...[intervention] MR SIBAYA What car? MS QUNTA The white Audi. You say that vehicle was standing facing North in NY113 and it faced - it was on the Northern side of NY113 and it faces NY115. MR SIBAYA No, 129 starts at 113, crosses over to 115. CHAIRPERSON Miss Qunta, just read to him paragraph 4 of his statement. MS QUNTA "I noticed a white Audi motor car which was parked on the Northern side of NY113 facing NY115" MR SIBAYA Yes, however when Mr Segal went with me during the day, he then rectified this and said that it was 129. When I took him there - showed him the positions where the cars were parked, he then rectified me. MS QUNTA So in fact, when you said that it faced NY115, there was in fact no NY115? MR SIBAYA Where the white car was parked? MS QUNTA Yes. MR SIBAYA The next day I found out that it was 129. MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA So in fact, what you are saying here was not your own knowledge Mr Sibaya - in this statement? MR SIBAYA What Madam. MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA The car was parked on 129 facing 115, the darker car was parked on 129 facing towards 113. MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA No English translation. MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA What truth do you want now? Do you want to know if there was a car or if there was no car there? MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA JUDGE WILSON MR SIBAYA What is written here is not true. JUDGE WILSON Thank you. CHAIRPERSON It took a long time. MS QUNTA Thank you. Now Mr Sibaya, when did you go to see Mr Segal or Superintendent Segal? MR SIBAYA I was fetched. MS QUNTA Do you recall when that was? MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA I did not make the statement with him or I did not give the statement to him, I gave it to somebody else. He fetched me on another day asking me to show him the location. MS QUNTA So when he took you to the location, had you already made the statement or where you about to make the statement? MR SIBAYA I had already made the statement. MS QUNTA You had already made the statement? MR SIBAYA Yes. MS QUNTA Now, what was the purpose of Superintendent Segal then taking you to the township? MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA And ...[intervention] MR SIBAYA He then took me and I showed him where all this had transpired, he then clarified with a map. MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA No, because I had already give a statement and it was written down. MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA But I understood from you evidence in chief that you had already made the statement. MR SIBAYA When? What time are you talking about specifically? MS QUNTA Okay. I think we must - I want to get a sequence out of you now, on the evening when you saw - when you allegedly saw this vehicle, you went to the police station, is that correct? MR SIBAYA Correct. MS QUNTA Which police station did you go to? MR SIBAYA Guguletu. MS QUNTA And do you recall the day on which that was - the evening that you saw the vehicle, what day was it? Do you recall the day? MR SIBAYA It was at the end of the month on a Thursday or Friday. MS QUNTA JUDGE WILSON The statement in paragraph 3 says Friday the 31st. MS QUNTA Okay, I could judge the evening ...[intervention] INTERPRETER MS QUNTA Sorry. I suppose the evening it was the 30th and the 31st so I think there is a bit - but that ...[inaudible] Thursday and Friday. Now, when did you actually go and make the statement that you made to the police, on what day? Do you recall on what day it was or how many days after? Perhaps we can use that to make it easier for you. MR SIBAYA The Guguletu police said that our statement was incoherent, they said we must go home, they took our addresses. It is on the Monday that they came ...[intervention] MS QUNTA Who came on the Monday? MR SIBAYA Nongahusa. MS QUNTA And where did he come from, which station? MR SIBAYA Bellville South. MS QUNTA And when did you make the statement then, on which day - it was on the 5th? MR SIBAYA On the Tuesday or the Wednesday because I was asked to go and look for Mazibuko. I went to Mazibuko, he refused to come with and I then returned on my own. The following - it was the following week, two days elapsed and then I went to make the statement. MS QUNTA So Superintendent Segal told you before the statement not to mention Mazibuko, is that correct? MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA JUDGE WILSON MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA Mr Sibaya, in your statement given to John Lubbe, in your evidence in chief and earlier when I asked you, on all three occasions you mentioned Superintendent Segal telling you not to mention Mazibuko, you have not mentioned anyone else now you are bringing that in. I think it would be appropriate to say to you at this point that you are not telling the truth and perhaps what you should do is think very carefully and tell this Committee exactly who told you not to mention Mazibuko. MR SIBAYA What truth are you talking about? What truth do you want to me? MS QUNTA CHAIRPERSON MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION 30 OCTOBER 1997 BENNET SIBAYA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Miss Qunta, are we ready to proceed? MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Have you had a chance of looking at it? MS QUNTA CHAIRPERSON Very well this will go in as Exhibit D, is it? JUDGE WILSON E. CHAIRPERSON MR PRIOR They were inserted at my request by Mr Killian, simply to assist with the easy identification of the road numbers Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, that will be received. Is there anything else Mr Prior? MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Yes, Miss Qunta? MS QUNTA CHAIRPERSON Very well. MS QUNTA CHAIRPERSON When you have all the numbers of the roads printed on the map, does it make too much difference? MS QUNTA I think it could Mr Chairman, I think it could. CHAIRPERSON CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS QUNTA Mr Sibaya, yesterday ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ADV SANDI MS QUNTA Yesterday you indicated at the start of your evidence in chief that when you made the statement to the police on the 5th of January, you told them everything including the registration number of the white vehicle that you saw, is that correct? MR SIBAYA Now, you told the Committee here and to Mr John Lubbe that a piece of paper fell from the car. MR SIBAYA Yes. MS QUNTA And that that piece of paper contained a map. CHAIRPERSON A diagram probably, more than a map. MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA No English translation MS QUNTA Can I get a response from the witness? I will repeat what I just said, you felt that that piece of paper was quite important and that is why you took it to the police station. MR SIBAYA What do you mean by important or significant? JUDGE WILSON Well, why did you take it to the police station? MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA It was because that paper was torn in Guguletu so there was no paper to talk about anymore. MS QUNTA No, my question is - you said to us that you told the police everything that happened on that night, there is nothing in this first statement about a map. The map or diagram story only comes in four years later, four years after the event this is mentioned. MR SIBAYA Please listen carefully Madam, the people to whom I gave the statement said that they do not write down when there is no evidence, it seemed like just a story now that the paper was not there - they said that I must talk about something concrete. JUDGE WILSON But everything you told them was just a story, or most of it that you wrote down and they wrote it down. An you said the man was wearing one of those sports caps, dark in colour - they wrote that down. MR SIBAYA What man? What man are you talking about? JUDGE WILSON MR SIBAYA In the statement I said that the one man had a cap on. JUDGE WILSON MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA Who gave me that order? MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA This is not clear to me, do you think somebody would just say to you must fabricate because that would come back to you - the truth always comes out. MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA Are you saying that this is all not true? MS QUNTA MR PRIOR MS QUNTA CHAIRPERSON MS QUNTA CHAIRPERSON MS QUNTA I take that point. MR SIBAYA This dark coloured car was facing South, the white car was facing North. When we arrived I did not see the White car sorry, I did not see the dark coloured car, I saw the car with the Transkei registration. I was looking for the place that I was looking for, then I went into the house, then I saw the dark coloured car when I was coming back as there were people alighting from that car going towards the white car. MS QUNTA Now, did you notice the colour of the vehicle or the registration number of the vehicle? MR SIBAYA I memorised it. MS QUNTA Of the dark vehicle? MR SIBAYA No, I memorised the number of the white vehicle. The white car I thought belonged to soldiers. JUDGE WILSON MR SIBAYA It is the dark car that I thought belonged to soldiers because they were fetching their arms from the dark car running towards the white car. MS QUNTA Now Mr Sibaya, did the dark car have number plates? MR SIBAYA It was far from me, I did not get close to it. MS QUNTA But I think you told us that it was 20 metres from you - In your statement you said it was about 20 metres away. Is that correct? MR SIBAYA That could be so, that could be the distance but it was further from the white car. MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA I did not get close to the dark car. MS QUNTA Now Mr Sibaya, you see this vehicle behind, there are people who come out of that vehicle with weapons according to you and they get into a white car, the white car dives away - you say in your statement that you think an offence may be committed or may have been committed or may be about to be committed. MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA What was I going to do to the dark car, it was going - this whole thing was going to involve me as well as a culprit, if I went there I would have been found guilty as well. CHAIRPERSON MR SIBAYA We were afraid by then, we did not even want to move until they had left altogether, we just wanted to get away from that place. MS QUNTA But according to your evidence, after the white vehicle left you were still there and the dark vehicle was still stationery. If you felt that there was something going wrong there - I want to put it to you that any reasonable person would go up to the white - the dark vehicle and take that registration number as well. MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA I will leave that issue now. JUDGE WILSON MR SIBAYA Please listen to me carefully, the one man said to the other: "You have forgotten your cap in the other car but if they had come back - think carefully, if they had come back to fetch the cap, what would have happened to me. CHAIRPERSON JUDGE WILSON Have you forgotten that you say in your statement that the other men ran away before the white car left? MR SIBAYA These are three men, the two went into the car, the one ran away. I - we had to be sure that they had all gone, then we would leave after that. We were scared at that point. JUDGE WILSON "One of the other four approaching the white car got in at the left back door, the other three men ran away towards the NY115". You said there were five men who came from the dark car, have you forgotten that? MR SIBAYA Two men went into the car and three did not go in. JUDGE WILSON Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now, if you suspected that these people had been stealing from that dark car, surely it was important for you to go to see about this dark car and see whether it had been broken into because you had made up your mind you were going to report to the police, is that not so? MR SIBAYA I had enough evidence, the police would have gone after them on the basis of the registration number I had. JUDGE WILSON MR SIBAYA ADV SANDI Mr Sibaya, is that to say that you were only interested in the white car and not the blue car? MR SIBAYA I was interested in the white car running away with the arms to murder people, the darker coloured car was just stationery - not going anywhere. JUDGE WILSON So you thought - the white car you now say was running away with arms to murder people? MR SIBAYA CHAIRPERSON Proceed please. MS QUNTA Mr Sibia - Sibaya, I beg your pardon, when - how did you get to see the registration number of the white vehicle? MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA Now, Mr Sibaya, brake lights go on for a fraction of a second and I want to put it to you that it is not believable that you could see those lights in that fraction of time - then not only memorise those - that registration number, with out writing it down because your evidence is that you did not write it down, and remember it five days later. Listen to me Mr Sibaya - five days later, I want to put it to you that it is unbelievable. MR SIBAYA I remember those numbers to this day, even if you would wake me up in the middle of my sleep I would remember those numbers - when you apply brakes the lights go on. MS QUNTA Mr Sibaya, I would wonder why you would dream a registration number of a car but I want to suggest to you that when you say you memorised that number, you were actually not telling the truth because when you were interviewed recently by Mr Lubbe, you could not remember that number. What is your comment about that? And be careful before you answer Mr Lubbe because you are - Mr Sibaya, because you are under oath. MR PRIOR MS QUNTA Mr Chairman, this is quite - I have information to the fact that - my instructions are and I got these instructions a few minutes ago, is that Mr Lubbe enquired from the witness, the number - he could not recall the number offhand and was given - Mr Lubbe had to prompt him for that number. If you will allow me Mr Chairman, I can call witnesses to that effect - it the witness denies that, I will do that. CHAIRPERSON MS QUNTA CHAIRPERSON MS QUNTA When he was interviewed by Mr Lubbe on the - during the process of the investigation that gave rise to the statement that was made - the affidavit. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MS QUNTA Now, another - perhaps I should get a comment from the witness Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MS QUNTA The questions of the cape ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON Has he relied to that? Mr Sibaya, it has been suggested to you that when Mr Lubbe spoke to you you were not able to remember the number and he had to remind you of it, is that so? MR SIBAYA Are you saying he prompted me with the number? JUDGE WILSON That is what is being suggested. MR SIBAYA No incorrect, he did not remind me. I know that number always - it will never leave my mind. MS QUNTA Mr Chairman, I may later on decide whether to call another person. But Mr Sibaya, you made reference in your second affidavit and in your evidence in chief here about a cap that you saw on one of the persons at the scene ...[intervention] MR PRIOR MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA Do you want me to answer that, do you want me to respond? MS QUNTA Yes. MR SIBAYA The police from Bellville South murder and robbery squad - I explained to them that ...[intervention] INTERPRETER Could the witness slow down please. CHAIRPERSON MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA Mr Sibaya, the question is: "Why did you not say that in your statement to the police"? I want you to answer the question. MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA CHAIRPERSON He says he did tell the police. MS QUNTA Yes, now ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON The police may not have written it down. MS QUNTA CHAIRPERSON MS QUNTA Yes, thank you. MR SIBAYA What is your question exactly? MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA I did not know that after a statement has been written you have to read it, the police just ask you to sign. They tell you that they have written it down as you had told them. JUDGE WILSON Can you tell Mr Lubbe about this conversation you heard? MR SIBAYA Could you repeat that question please? JUDGE WILSON Did you tell Mr Lubbe about this conversation you heard about the cap and the name that was mentioned? MR SIBAYA No, I forgot to tell him because I had a lot in my mind. MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA Please listen Madam, I am not well educated. I went to St Cuthberts in the rural areas, I left school it standard two. It was hard to receive education in my time. MS QUNTA Can you therefore ...[intervention] INTERPRETER The interpreter did not hear the second last sentence. CHAIRPERSON Tell the witness to repeat that answer again because what he said was not heard. MR SIBAYA I grew up in the rural areas - it was hard to receive education at the time, we went to St Cuthberts in Tsolo - I was taught to write my name. I was at school until standard two, I am not well educated. MS QUNTA: Can you read Mr Sibaya? Can you read English, can you read English or Xhosa? MR SIBAYA If the words are not complicated I can read, I cannot however read a newspaper for example. MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA No, unless they would read it out for me, I could not have read a statement that was written in English. MS QUNTA Okay, now the affidavit that you made for Mr Lubbe, if that was given to you to read would you also say you would not be able to read that? MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA Did you read the affidavit that was made? When the affidavit was completed, was it given to you to read? MR SIBAYA He read it out for me. MS QUNTA Now, where are you presently employed? MR SIBAYA I work in Kenilworth. MS QUNTA Where in Kenilworth? MR SIBAYA Main Road. MS QUNTA Or for whom do you work? MR SIBAYA No English translation. INTERPRETER MS QUNTA Yes, my apologies. MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA And are you married Mr Sibaya? MR SIBAYA INTERPRETER MS QUNTA When did you separated from your wife? MR SIBAYA It is a long time ago, 1980. MS QUNTA And do you have any children? MR SIBAYA I have two children. MS QUNTA Can I have their names please? MR SIBAYA MS QUNTA MR SIBAYA Girls, Madam. MS QUNTA Can I have their names please.