amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-02-13 CAPE TOWN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54663&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/capetown/capetown_5kond1.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens please? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Thank you Mr Chairman. MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS When did you find that out? MR COETZEE That was in exile Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Before you testified before the Harms Commission? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Very well. Now, you could have had - the car was discussed again at some time when you were in exile, is that correct? MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] instead of discussed it might be just mentioned and not discussed. MR COETZEE Just mentioned. CHAIRPERSON And not discussed. MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Yes, I take your point Mr Chairman. You see Mr Coetzee I want to put it to you, the fact that you saw this motor car is an afterthought and you never saw such a car there. MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS You are also aware - before you testified in this matter you became aware of a certain - you referred to the documentation that was filed in this matter, is that correct? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS All the evidence, all the telexes and those things, is that right? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS And you must also obviously have seen the bit where it appears that according to the author of that document on the 21st of October, Mr Kondile was alive. MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Did that also influence you in determining the date when you believed that Mr Kondile was killed? MR COETZEE Not at all Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Mr Coetzee, while we are busy with that volume, please turn to page 107, did you deliberately forge your so-called job card? MR COETZEE No, not at all Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS But it does tell us about your movements after that date? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS The very last entry, am I correct - you were away from the office for two days at the end of December in Easter Transvaal? MR COETZEE That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Is that a genuine entry? MR COETZEE According to my recollection I was just before I left because I handed Vlakplaas over to my successor on the 31st of December 1981 and I knew that I was somewhere in the Eastern Transvaal during that time. MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE That is correct Mr Chairman, although I did leave the area for a day or two. MR BOOYENS To go where Mr Coetzee, can you remember? MR COETZEE To get rid of the Lesotho diamond dealer Mr Chairman, at the Swaziland border - of his body. MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Mr Coetzee, why does the job card not reflect the Komatiepoort trip? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS If you say East London - the very first entry, that means you were what has been referred to within the area of jurisdiction of the border security branch, is that correct? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Somewhere during that period if I understand your evidence correctly, you would have been in Port Elizabeth? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE No, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS By Nick van Rensburg? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Is my recollection also correct that you stated that when - in fact when the car was stolen, van Rensburg and Raath were with you? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Just to make it absolutely clear, if I say with you in the immediate vicinity where the motor car was parked? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Ja, ja. MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS So clearly, if the Eastern Cape people wanted to steal the car they had the means to do so themselves? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Now, you were stationed for how long at Oshoek border post? MR COETZEE From January 1977 till the first week in January 1980, if my memory serves me right. MR BOOYENS In other words about three and a half years? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS And you testified yesterday that Roy Otto was stationed there for a period of about eight years - at Lebomba. MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS The security police in those days was a rather small community, not so? MR COETZEE It was Mr Chairman, it always was a small community. MR BOOYENS Did you ever visit Lebomba border post Mr Coetzee? MR COETZEE I was there once at the border post - at the security branch offices at the border post when I reported to Archie Flemmington with the Kondile murder Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Well just to jump back quickly and with Peter and Vuzi? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Mr Coetzee, I just want - and I please want to get absolute clarity, who was there at the scene at the time Mr Kondile was murdered and his body was buried? MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Nine or ten, but is that the sum total of the people that were there? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Mr Coetzee, would you please turn to page 116. This is an extract of your amnesty application heard in Durban on the 7th of November 1996, is that right? MR COETZEE I accept it Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Just line about 25: "and the two Ermelo men" - that passage MR COETZEE The full ...[intervention] MR BOOYENS "And the two Ermelo men each grabbed a hand and a foot MR COETZEE Must I read that who sentence? "each grabbed a hand and a foot" ...[intervention] MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Yes. MR COETZEE Which is normal and happens in every day life even in this Commission. MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS For example, one of the other mistakes is that you also ascertained later on that the description of the colour of the Stanza that you have given us is wrong. MR COETZEE I said I think it was light green or light yellow and it was proved to be light yellow. MR BOOYENS Yes. How did that happen Mr Coetzee? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Could it be in fact that you were right that the Stanza you saw was light blue or light green? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS And the first - did I understand you to say that the first time when in fact it was mentioned that the Stanza was the car which was with Mr Kondile, was that on that very same day when you saw it or at a later time? - we just want to make sure of that. MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Before you saw the detainee? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Now, so Mr van Rensburg, while you were still on your way to the detainee - before you have seen him, mentioned to you that that specific car belonged to a detainee? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Do you know why he mentioned it Mr Coetzee? How did it happen? MR COETZEE Well, it was strange that he opened the garage door adjacent or very near the second or third one from the garage where - police garage where we parked the Audi in and closed the door, that he opened it, had a look at it and closed it again Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE If I remember correctly, Jan Raath parked the Audi and we came afterwards Mr Chairman - after he entered the police yard Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS And then for some or other reason Nick van Rensburg walked with you to the garage where the Stanza was parked, opened the door, took a look and closed the door again? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE No, maybe - only he can say, I can just guess that he wanted to make sure that the car is still there Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE No, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Can you remember how many lock-up - how many garages there are? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Mr Coetzee obviously, if the Audi - not the Audi, if the Stanza was never entered into the police books - the police register in Bloemfontein, this whole elaborate charade of ostensibly releasing Mr Kondile and then kidnapping him and so would have been completely unnecessary, is that right? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Well, as I understand you, the only reason why Mr Kondile was ostensibly released was so that they could get the motor car from Bloemfontein? MR COETZEE That is what was ...[intervention] MR BOOYENS That was what was explained to you? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE No, he confirmed - Nick confirmed that the detainee was released, abducted and illegally held. MR BOOYENS At the Harms Commission? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS But you say Sam Maritz said at the Harms Commission that they released the man in order to get his motor car back. MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Well, that is a far cry from admitting that he was illegally detained subsequent to that. MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Well you know of course that he was transferred with - and the documentation is available Mr Coetzee. He was transferred with a warrant in terms of Section 6 and all the paper work was there. MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Surely one would have expected when he was released at Hilton police station in Bloemfontein that if there was other property he would have taken that with him because there was nothing irregular about that transfer on what we can see. MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE I will accept it Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS and then you carry on with your answer: In fact it seems that was what you say that you learnt from Colonel Nick van Rensburg? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Ja, no but what Sam Maritz said, as I now understand you, is in fact he said to you "No, the man was released, his car was handed to him and he was free to go" MR COETZEE At Bloemfontein Mr Maritz ...[indistinct] MR BOOYENS You see at page 93 of the same record Mr Maritz continues cross-examining you and if you specifically - from line 10 Mr Coetzee "According to them the car was kept in the Free State somewhere at a police station in the Free State" "Then he must be taken to the police station in the Free State"? "I suppose so, yes" "And driven his car there" - "I suppose so, yes" "And allowed to drive off"? - " suppose so, yes" "And they caught him again" - "According to them" And this significant in the answer Mr Coetzee. "But how is that possible" MR COETZEE It was quite a long remark, perhaps Mr Booyens can just help me to sort that out Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE Well, that was conclusions that I came to and it was confirmed to be correct Mr Chairman, by Mr Maritz. MR BOOYENS No, no, Mr Coetzee, but the point is by the time you gave evidence in London, Nick van Rensburg had already told you the story - if I understand you correctly, that they kidnapped the man. MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS How could you still leave room for the possibility that he was officially detained? MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS Very well Mr Coetzee, I hear your answer. Could you just bear with me Mr Chairman. I try to be a man of my word Mr Chairman, that concludes my cross-examination. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Booyens. INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Visser. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY VISSER Mr Coetzee, do you have Volumes 2 and 3 in front of you? MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Can I just ascertain your stand in regard to the application of the four applications for amnesty in the Kondile matter before this Committee at the moment, do you oppose their applications or not? MR COETZEE MR VISSER Right. Mr Coetzee, is it correct to say that in the year 1989 you decided to come clean, to tell the full truth? MR COETZEE MR VISSER And how you went about this? MR COETZEE Well, I was forced in a way to make up my mind when Almond Nofomele spoke from death row in October 1989 Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Yes, and how you went about this was to contact the "Vrye Weekblad", either Mr Max du Preez or Jacques Pauw, is that correct? MR COETZEE Jacques Pauw was a friend of mine I met in 1986 and I contacted him. MR VISSER Yes. And you were then whisked off to the Island paradise of Mauritius, is that correct? MR COETZEE Eventually yes, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Where - as you explained to this Committee under great stress, you told you story to Jacques Pauw, it was recorded and transcribed. MR COETZEE MR VISSER Yes. That transcription was confirmed by you under oath in the Harms Commission as being true and correct? MR COETZEE MR VISSER And that became known as the Mauritius statement? MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER And thereafter, am I correct in saying that you also gave evidence regarding your revelations in the Neethling trial? MR COETZEE MR VISSER And in your own Ngenge trial where you were an accused? MR COETZEE I did not give evidence at all in the Ngenge trial. MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE If Mr Visser can ...[intervention] MR VISSER 102 of Volume 2 Mr Coetzee - 101. MR COETZEE MR BOOYENS MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER You also had an opportunity to tell your story in your application to the Amnesty Committee, did you not? MR COETZEE MR VISSER And lastly, as far as I know you gave evidence to the the Amnesty Committee, is that correct? MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER All right. Now just by way of introduction very briefly and lastly by way of introduction. You say your purpose of your quest for the truth was a full disclosure, you wanted to get it off your chest - I think were the words you used in London? MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER Oh come on Mr Coetzee ...[intervention] MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE I said he was interrupting because he as a journalist took a different viewpoint or a different approach than a legal would have had. MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER Yes. And is that also with the same purpose that you wrote your manuscript, not to make money out of it but just to tell the truth? MR COETZEE MR VISSER Yes, they pushed you into it as you put it? MR COETZEE I was pushed in. MR VISSER MR COETZEE Not at all. At that stage it was for factual - the facts to come out without being bogged down and tied down by legal niceties in judicial commission. MR VISSER Forget about that time, what is your purpose now with your manuscript? MR COETZEE It is ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER MR COETZEE It is eight years later ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR COETZEE It is eight years down the line Mr Chairman and that document stands as it is, not touched ever again or worked on except being polished as far as spelling mistakes are concerned but not submitted to anyone for printing purposes or updated at all with the knowledge I have now. MR VISSER Then just answer this one question would you please Mr Coetzee, why do you write: "Copyright Reserved" on that document? MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER No, pardon me ...[intervention] MR COETZEE Will and shall come out. MR VISSER Yes, apart from that. Your agenda was to attempt to join the ANC? MR COETZEE I did eventually join Mr Chairman, because they were looking after me in exile, feeding me, boarding me, lodging me and given me protection from onslaughts on my life. MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER Yes, of course. MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER Which you did not? MR COETZEE But I did not. MR VISSER ADV DE JAGER But in fact Mr Coetzee, you ordered other people to pull the trigger? MR COETZEE Not ordered any specific one, there were enough volunteers on each occasion that I recorded just volunteered, grabbed the gun and did the shooting when the word was ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER And you elected the volunteers to go with you on many occasions? MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE Can you just refresh my memory please Mr Visser, on what occasion did I implicate Koos or Paul van Dyk? MR VISSER This morning you said in answer to my learned friend MR COETZEE No, no, no ...[intervention] MR VISSER MR COETZEE Both of them were present at the Vuzi and Peter killing, Paul van Dyk and Koos Vermeulen Mr Chair. MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER Then just as well I repeated it to you fully. He says and he is supported in that evidence by du Plessis and van Rensburg, that this motorcar was left near Barbeton just off the main road near the border. MR COETZEE MR VISSER ADV DE JAGER ...[intervention] to Komatiepoort. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Commissioner. MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER And that they followed you in your car with their car to a place in the bush where the events took place. MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE I have because that was not what was said to me - that was not what was originally arranged and that was not what was said to me by Nick van Rensburg. MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE Oh yes, yes, sorry I ...[intervention] MR VISSER What car did you think I was talking about? MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON No, no, it was a slip-up. MR VISSER And I apologise to you Mr Coetzee. MR COETZEE MR VISSER Did he then tell you who took the car through? MR COETZEE MR VISSER And he said so to you. MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER So Coetzee - half way down the page says: "No, wait a little bit" CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR VISSER Page 28 Mr ...[indistinct] MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR VISSER Volume 3. No, no, Volume 3. "No, I see him there. Now I am there together with these people from P.E. security and then they told me this was a person who had come from Lesotho". "It was a Datsun Coupe, 2 door as far as I can remember. I did not see the motor car at that stage" My learned friend did indeed ask you. Would you please remind us - refresh our memories as to what your reply to that was? MR COETZEE MR VISSER Oh yes, a slip of the mind yes ...[intervention] MR COETZEE MR VISSER "They came with old Colonel Nick" MR COETZEE On page, sorry? MR VISSER 29. MR COETZEE Paragraph? You said at the bottom of the page ...[intervention] MR VISSER At the bottom, the second last sentence. MR COETZEE The second last sentence? MR VISSER Yes. "Came with" Do you see those words" MR COETZEE The second last sentence says "Ons sou did reel maar toe Nick daar aankom" ...[intervention] MR VISSER MR COETZEE "Came there together with old Colonel Nick and another person in a car. This motorcar was taken through the border post with false registration numbers" Where does that come from? MR COETZEE From - as discussed in advance with Major Nick van Rensburg and done by the Ermelo security branch Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Have you ever told anybody else - after the Mauritius statement, about these false number plates? MR COETZEE MR VISSER More pertinently, have you told this Committee about this - I mean your Amnesty Committee about that, the false number plates? MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER And you continue on that page to say "We would arrange that but when Nick" What does that mean? MR COETZEE MR VISSER Well, perhaps one is in need of a better explanation. I want to suggest to you that these words in plain Afrikaans means that Mr van Rensburg took the vehicle through the border. MR COETZEE MR VISSER Why would you suggest if they wanted the motorcar to be discovered, would they fit false number plates to it? MR COETZEE Because the person taking it through the border will then be registered in the registers as Mr Chris Deetlefs taking the car through the border instead of Sizwe Kondile. MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER Yes. And security personnel from Ermelo would have been able to do the same surely? MR COETZEE Well obviously they knew cars of the ...[indistinct] Ermelo guys so they would have taken it through a different border too Mr Chairman. MR VISSER " I was told it was the car belonging to a detainee" CHAIRPERSON About two thirds of the way down? MR VISSER I do apologies, I should have marked the paragraph numbers as well. And then at page 102 of Volume 2, I want to direct your attention to Mr Coetzee. Page 102 of Volume 2 in the middle of the page, I put it to you ...[intervention] MR COETZEE The page number please? MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE Is it not mentioned at all in this statement? MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Yes. In that - on the 8th of October 1996 no reference is made to that car. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER MR COETZEE That's correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Well, have you ever told any living soul this piece of evidence before today? MR COETZEE That the car was parked in the garage? Yes, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER No Mr Coetzee, please listen - that Jan Raath parked the car there? MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER Thank you. And Jan Raath will - Jan Raath denies that he knew anything about this motorcar, that he ever asked for the tyres of this motorcar or that he ever drove the motorcar or parked the motorcar. MR COETZEE ADV DE JAGER INTERPRETER ADV DE JAGER ...[inaudible] amnesty for the killing of Kondile. MR VISSER MR COETZEE I did Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And you knew when you gave your evidence before the Amnesty Committee that you were supposed to explain how that was an act associated with a political objective. MR COETZEE MR VISSER What is wrong with a "yes" or a "no" Mr Coetzee? MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE On the form, I will accept Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Yes. And ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, if I remember correctly Mr Coetzee - his application for amnesty related to some 40 matters, this was just one of them. MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR JANSEN MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Is that page 118? MR VISSER 118 of Volume 2 - perhaps we should read this in fairness to you Mr Coetzee. In the middle of the page you say: "Now, at the time, did you know anything about the security threat that Mr - or supposed security threat that Mr Kondile posed to the people in the Eastern Cape"? Your answer is: "No, I did not have any exact details about it Mr Chairman? Then Justice Wilson who asks you at the foot of that page 118: "Sorry, have I misunderstood you? I understood that this man had suffered injuries and was mentally unstable now" ...[intervention] MR COETZEE Where are you reading now Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Page 119. The foot of page 118 to the top of page 119. MR COETZEE MR VISSER "Sorry, have I misunderstood you? I understood that this man had suffered injuries and was mentally unstable now" Your answer is: MR COETZEE MR VISSER "But they decided to liquidate him because of his injuries" Asks Judge Wilson. "That's correct Mr Chairman" Question: "There was no question of him being a danger"? "There was no question of him being a danger" MR COETZEE MR VISSER All right. So from that a whole number of issues flow but the one that I want to concentrate on is that by putting to you that the only thing that seems vaguely political about this, is the - is your inclusion of a reference to Mr Steve Biko. Would you agree with that statement? MR COETZEE No. MR JANSEN MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VISSER MR COETZEE No. I knew the reason, getting rid of him was because he sustained injuries whilst being tortured, dived through a window to get away from his torturers or his interrogators, landed on his head and as a result of the he sustained injuries which could have caused another Biko case, was told to me Mr Chairman, which would have had huge political uproar ...[intervention] MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER You did not know whether Mr Kondile was actively involved in politics yourself, did you? MR COETZEE No. MR VISSER MR COETZEE I did not Mr Chairman. MR VISSER And that appears at page 129 Volume 2 Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER Mr Coetzee, could you please help me in this regard? Suppose he was released and it was ascertained that he had head injuries, that could reflect on an assault by the security police on a prisoner? MR COETZEE ADV DE JAGER How could that be of political significance as far as the whole country is concerned or the government is concerned? MR COETZEE ADV DE JAGER Good ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Was it feared that he might die of this injury or suffer irreparable damage? MR COETZEE That's correct Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER And that would reflect politically on the government of the day? CHAIRPERSON The security police. MR COETZEE On the security police and of course the National Party government. MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE That's correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER MR COETZEE That's correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER MR COETZEE I admit it. MR VISSER MR COETZEE For me to continue to Komatiepoort and go and assist, that's correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Go and assist. Now, I want to put it to you bluntly Mr Coetzee, that is I were an applicant in an amnesty application relying on the fact that I executed orders from my superiors to kill a person I would have said so. MR COETZEE MR VISSER I would have said so. I would have said: "Willem Schoon told me to go and assist in eliminating a person that was going to be brought up from the Eastern Cape. MR COETZEE MR VISSER Yes. But do you admit that the one thing you have never told anybody is that Willem Schoon told you to go and assist in the elimination of Sizwe Kondile? MR JANSEN ADV DE JAGER MR VISSER Well, the answer is a straightforward one, I act for Brigadier Schoon. CHAIRPERSON Well, not in this matter. MR VISSER In this matter Mr Chairman, the evidence of Dirk Coetzee - Mr Dirk Coetzee is that he received instructions from Brigadier Schoon to go the Eastern Transvaal ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Yes, he has said that. MR VISSER ADV DE JAGER So, this is asked on behalf of a alleged perpetrator? MR VISSER Yes, indeed. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Yes, yes. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER "At a later stage I was instructed by Colonel Schoon to meet up with Major Archie Flemmington from Komatiepoort and that Colonel Nick van Rensburg be joining us there" That is ...[intervention] MR COETZEE Is it page? MR VISSER 93, the middle of the ... MR COETZEE I can see it Mr Chairman. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Yes, Mr Chairman, I concede that, I concede that. Now, at page 94 where you dealt with political objectives sought, you came to (f) and you said: "Yes" Your acts were committed in the execution of an order and (g) you said: "By Colonel Schoon" MR COETZEE Where? MR VISSER "One day Colonel Schoon instructed me to meet up with Major Archie Flemmington from Komatiepoort and told me that Colonel van Rensburg would join us there" Then you go on to say: MR COETZEE No, I was 100% sure what I had to go and do at Komatiepoort. I knew who was coming up without specific names being mentioned and I knew what was going to happen there and so did Brigadier Schoon and so did Mr Nick van Rensburg and so did Mr Archie Flemmington and so did all of us. MR VISSER MR COETZEE That's correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Yes. ADV DE JAGER MR VISSER Indeed Mr Chairman. I was going to refer to that separately but I can do it straight away. Who spoke - in this meeting between you and Willem Schoon, who spoke about knock-out drops for the first time? MR COETZEE I spoke about it Mr Chairman. MR VISSER So, if somebody were to say that Schoon called you in on this occasion and told you to go and fetch knock-out drops without you having asked for them, that - for the knock-out drops, that would be incorrect I suppose? MR COETZEE Can you just repeat the question please? MR VISSER If somebody were to say that when Schoon spoke to you on this occasion when you received the instruction, that he told you out of his own to go and fetch knock-out drops from General Neethling, that would be incorrect? MR COETZEE Incorrect, I told him that I needed knock-out drops. MR VISSER "During early November I was summoned by Brigadier Schoon whilst in Pretoria, to collect knock-out drops from ...[indistinct] Neethling which he arranged" MR COETZEE "During the trip to Port Elizabeth we also discussed leaving his vehicle in Swaziland to" ...[intervention] MR VISSER MR COETZEE Yes Sir, but I ...[intervention] MR VISSER MR COETZEE No, but you said it was never mentioned in this ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Anyway Mr Coetzee, just for the time being - you can mention that later but for the time being just refer to this paragraph to which Mr Visser is referring. MR COETZEE Can Mr Visser just read ...[intervention] MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER What is your reaction to this paragraph? CHAIRPERSON MR COETZEE MR VISSER JUDGE PILLAY Mr Coetzee, was this the first time you spoke to Schoon about knock-out drops? MR COETZEE No, not at all, the first was in October with the Vuzi and Peter incident Mr Chairman. MR VISSER All of that is of course on the assumption that Mr Kondile was eliminated after you eliminated - according to you, Mr Vuzi and Peter not so? MR COETZEE He was Mr ...[intervention] MR VISSER ADV DE JAGER The reference please? MR VISSER I have the reference here as page 115 Volume 2 Mr Chairman, my reference may be wrong. JUDGE PILLAY Why are the two aspects contradictory you say? MR VISSER Well, in the one - and we made it quite clear in the question, in the one Mr Coetzee says he was the man who broached the subject of the knock-out drops, in the other it now becomes Brigadier Schoon. And you see the relevance of this is we are talking about what the instructions were. JUDGE PILLAY MR VISSER JUDGE PILLAY If you want to attend to that please. MR COETZEE The knock-out drops story is confirmed by Mr van Rensburg in the application before this Committee where he said a sleep - he calls it a sleeping substance was added to his drink. MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER Yes. And the powder never worked at all? MR COETZEE The powder never worked at all. MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER Very bad poison. MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER Yes. When ...[intervention] JUDGE PILLAY Mr - excuse Mr Coetzee, tell me, you made a request or you informed Schoon that you needed this sleeping agency in relation to the Kondile matter, how did you get that sleeping agency into your hands? MR COETZEE How did I get that ...[intervention] JUDGE PILLAY How did you receive it in order to use it? MR COETZEE JUDGE PILLAY So how did you know to go to him in order to collect it? MR COETZEE JUDGE PILLAY I accept that but in the Kondile matter when you finally went to go and fetch the sleeping agency, how did you know that you must go and collect it on that day? MR COETZEE Because it was needed for Sizwe Kondile. JUDGE PILLAY I know it was needed for that. MR COETZEE Kondile matter. JUDGE PILLAY How did you know it was available? MR COETZEE He always had it available Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR COETZEE Mr Schoon - sorry, informed General Neethling that I would be coming to pick it up on my request. MR VISSER Perhaps to make the last question absolutely beyond doubt, are you saying Brigadier Schoon organised the drop-out drugs - knock out drops? MR COETZEE MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER No, Mr Chairman, I want to know whether he knows what the word organised means. MR COETZEE If you as a person organised on your own accord anything ...[intervention] MR VISSER Yes. Now did Brigadier Schoon organise the knock-out drops? MR COETZEE He authorised it. He phone General Neethling and authorised it for him to give me the knock-out drops. MR VISSER So you refuse to answer my question? MR COETZEE MR VISSER "His body was then cremated" MR COETZEE I organised the poison which I received from Brigadier Lotnal Neethling of the forensic laboratory in Pretoria. MR VISSER MR COETZEE I presume in your context, yes Sir - yes Mr Chairman. MR VISSER MR COETZEE I think a big scene is made about small little words. I went to pick up poison after it was authorised by Brigadier Schoon to General Neethling that he could give it to me, as plain as simple as that. JUDGE PILLAY MR VISSER MR COETZEE ADV DE JAGER Did you give him the knock-out drops? MR COETZEE ADV DE JAGER So you handed it to a junior officer and instructed the junior officer to pour it into his drink? MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON So it was simply handed to him and he knew what to do about it? MR COETZEE ADV DE JAGER To whom was it handed? MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON MR COETZEE Well, poison is something that will kill you in the end Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR COETZEE MR VISSER Now my question to you is, why do you refer in your application form to poison when you really mean knock-out drops? MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE Well, I ...[intervention] MR VISSER You said - please, you said "The powder was the poison, the knock-out drops were the anaesthetic" And you confirmed it again today. MR COETZEE MR VISSER How then do you come about mentioning poison in your application form? MR COETZEE ADV DE JAGER MR COETZEE I very clearly indicated Mr Chairman, that he was given a fair amount of knock-out drops which eventually made him fall over and he was then shot. ADV DE JAGER MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE No, knock-out drop or whatever you want to call it. MR VISSER All right, fine. Will you look at the top of page 93 of Volume 2 please? A1, what does that say? - Acts, omission or offences. MR COETZEE Abduction and murder, administering poison, assault. MR VISSER "In any case I left and later I was sent" MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR VISSER MR COETZEE No, no, no, ...[intervention] MR JANSEN MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER Think about who gave you the instruction. MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER And could you place that situation in your mind afterwards? MR COETZEE Yes, I could Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Mr Coetzee, just very briefly, this issue of the alleged diving out of the window as you say you were told by Mr van Rensburg, very briefly I put it to you that originally you stated that he dived out of the window during an interrogation and that was that. Would you agree with that? MR COETZEE If it was said that way I will agree with it. MR VISSER And I want to put to you that later it became embroidered to the extent that he dived out of a window to escape an assault, a serious assault on him. MR COETZEE To escape from his interrogators. MR VISSER No. MR COETZEE MR VISSER So interrogation in your book means the same as being seriously assaulted? MR COETZEE MR VISSER Yes, Mr Coetzee. The references Mr Chairman, Mauritius: page 29 of Volume 3. In the London evidence: also Volume 3 page 86 to 87. The same Volume, page 95 to 96. Page 100. In the application Mr Chairman: page 93 of Volume 2 - 93 of Volume 2, 94 of Volume 2, 99 of Volume 2, 103 of Volume 2. And may I interject by saying that up to this stage, nothing is mentioned about any assault and you will be able to check that from those references. Thereafter Mr Chairman for the first time, in evidence before you, at page 111 Volume 3 says: "He was illegally detained" Then Mr Erasmus denies that you ever gave him money Mr - well, money from a stolen car Mr Coetzee. MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Oh, I beg your pardon. MR COETZEE No, I did not Mr Chairman, I said he accompanied Nick van Rensburg and I gave it to Nick van Rensburg. MR VISSER Well, whatever. Mr Erasmus denies that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly. MR VISSER Mr Coetzee, insofar as your evidence is in conflict with the evidence of the applicants here, I put it to you that their evidence is correct and yours is wrong. MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE I do not make mistakes like that. MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Jansen? MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON MR JANSEN Yes, I agree. CHAIRPERSON ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Merely arising out of what has transpired. MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON I understand. MR WITZ We received a notice from my learned friend Mr Steenkamp who is the evidence leader of the Amnesty Truth and Reconciliation Commission, in terms of Section 19(4), which reads very simply: "To General Loot ...[indistinct] Neethling, Hatfield. That an application for amnesty of H du Plessis, van Rensburg, Raath and Erasmus in terms of Section 18 will be considered and heard at the Old Mutual building, 106 Adderly Street, on the 9th to the 13th of February at 09H00. Take note as further that as a person interested in the application you has a right to be present. You are implicated in: No1" "The abduction, killing and disposing of Sizwe Kondile" We did receive the notice, that is the reason that we are here and I need some type of ruling - possibly after the tea adjournment because it might lead to further complications in this matter in regard to availability of my instructing attorney, the counsel who is in the matter with me, Advocate Cilliers and whether or not we would need an opportunity to consider the matter to cross-examine Mr Coetzee - which would be at length, in relation to his allegations. CHAIRPERSON MR WITZ CHAIRPERSON MR WITZ CHAIRPERSON MR WITZ That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR WITZ Well it can be taken as read into the record. CHAIRPERSON It will be. MR WITZ CHAIRPERSON Insofar as your client is implicated, in other words whether your client supplied Mr Coetzee with what he claims he received from your client. MR WITZ That is correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR WITZ You have his denial. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR WITZ But Mr Chairman, I need some clarity in regard to what weight of evidence or what admissibility this Commission and yourself Mr Chairman, and your fellow members will be according to what Mr Coetzee has said. In other words whether his evidence must be tested by myself together with my other colleagues and what the position is in regard to his evidence. CHAIRPERSON MR WITZ We were under the impression that Mr Coetzee would not be called in this particular matter. That is the impression we were put under and it was only at a very late stage in the day, approximately twenty to four yesterday afternoon that the Committee came to a decision that in the interests of this Commission, Mr Coetzee would be called. CHAIRPERSON MR WITZ CHAIRPERSON The weight that we might attach or not attach to the evidence given by Mr Coetzee on whether he received any medication or any substance from your client, is a matter on which we at this stage cannot decide. MR WITZ CHAIRPERSON Very well, thank you. MR JANSEN Yes, there are a couple of matters that I want to clear up Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR JANSEN Thank you Mr Chairman. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR JANSEN Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetzee, you appreciate you are still under oath? DIRK COETZEE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. EXAMINATION BY JANSEN Mr Coetzee, in the latter part of 1981 you had the rank of Captain, is that correct? MR COETZEE That's correct Mr Chairman. MR JANSEN When did you become a Captain? MR COETZEE In April 1980 Mr Chairman. MR JANSEN When did you take over the command of Vlakplaas? MR COETZEE In August 1980 Mr Chairman. MR JANSEN MR COETZEE MR JANSEN Mr Chairman, if I may just - I promised you at a previous occasion the typed record of that letter, if I could maybe just hand it to the Committee members now and to the other people. MR JANSEN Now, was - before you took over at Vlakplaas, was it previously operating on the same basis that it operated eventually under your command? MR COETZEE No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] this document will go in as Exhibit C. MR JANSEN Thank you Mr Chairman. Sorry Mr Chairman, that should be E - sorry, D - D for donkey. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, do carry on. MR JANSEN The animosity and - well, I suppose the serious personal differences that there were between you and certain of the police officials which related to your departure from the police force, did that involve any of the individuals in this application? MR COETZEE Not at all Mr Chairman. MR JANSEN When did you first become aware that it is alleged that Mr Roy Otto was involved in this incident? MR COETZEE Only on preparing for this hearing of the applicants Mr Chairman. MR JANSEN From what did you become aware that Roy Otto was alleged to be involved? MR COETZEE From the statements that the applicants have submitted to us and the Committee Mr Chairman. MR JANSEN Did you take any steps at that stage to see how it accorded with your evidence at Harms describing the physical features of the person shooting? MR COETZEE I did, I contacted a former police constable Frans van Jaarsveld. A friend of mine knew him very well and described him as bald, short, stockily built, with a coarse croaky voice. MR JANSEN MR COETZEE Never Mr Chairman, only once and that was that evening with the Audi, never again and never before. MR JANSEN If somebody with a senior rank like Schoon or van Rensburg friendly requested you to assist in something, would you say that would generally be an order or simply a request that you can refuse or comply with at your will? MR COETZEE An order which I would say - if you wanted to get kicked out of the family and get rid of, you should refuse and that would be the end of your participation in the security police. CHAIRPERSON You say that that would apply to not orders but even requests? MR COETZEE MR JANSEN But is it true that is was very often couched in a request? MR COETZEE MR JANSEN MR COETZEE That's correct Mr Chairman. MR JANSEN And you have obviously been through your versions on many occasions and as far as the judicial processes are concerned, I take it you cannot at this stage add anything to your previous testimony and attempts? MR COETZEE MR JANSEN Yes. As far as any extra judicial attempts are concerned, you have expressed your desire to assist one step - or to assist the TRC one step further - and if you may just place that on record. MR COETZEE MR JANSEN Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, while Mr Coetzee is still present - I neglected to do one thing I should have done. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR VISSER I should have referred you Mr Chairman, to the Judgement of the Appellate Division in the case of Neethling versus Du Preez and others and Neethling versus the Weekly Mail and others. It is reported in 1994, Volume 1 of the South African Law Report ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR VISSER JUDGE PILLAY What page was that? MR VISSER 756. After the ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Sorry, reference again sorry, 1994? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Are you familiar with that Judgement? MR JANSEN ADV DE JAGER Mr Jansen, that could be dealt with in argument as I understand it ...[inaudible] MR JANSEN Yes, Mr Chairman, purely in argument, ja. ADV DE JAGER MR JANSEN Yes. Mr Chairman, I may place on record that I have no objection to the findings of the Harms Commission, the Judgement in the Neethling trial, which are matters of public record ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR JANSEN ADV DE JAGER It was based on the evidence ...[intervention] MR JANSEN Yes, and that my learned friends can use that if - to the extent that they regard it as relevant. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. MR JANSEN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS ADV DE JAGER MR BOOYENS My attorney will see to that Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Thank you very much. MR VISSER ADV DE JAGER MR VISSER Mr Chairman, if you will overlook the inaccuracies which may arise from faulty notes, we will ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, we will do what we can, I promise that. CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS No, I fully appreciate that. Mr Chairman, we will do what we can. Perhaps if I can just place one aspect on record, something that my learned friend mentioned. If we could from our side just request, if there is unclarities in certain submission we made and so, then obviously we would just appreciate if the Committee could let us know so that we could if necessary, reply further to any uncertainty or something. CHAIRPERSON We certainly will not take decisions on facts where there is not clarity, we will not do that. MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON I understand, thank you very much. Mr Jansen? MR JANSEN Mr Chairman, as I understand my position, we are not opposing this application so we will not be filing heads but I may then file within the same two weeks period, just a short heads of argument ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON If you wish to make any submission ...[intervention] MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Well now, we have your heads in the previous application, do you wish to make ...[intervention] MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR JANSEN Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Mr Moosa? MR MOOSA CHAIRPERSON MR MOOSA CHAIRPERSON Mr Moosa, you must discuss that with him between now and the time that ...[intervention] MR MOOSA Yes, that would be the sensible thing to do. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MOOSA CHAIRPERSON MR MOOSA CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MOOSA CHAIRPERSON Mr Valus, any earth shaking statement from you? MR ROUX CHAIRPERSON MR ROUX I will do so Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON All right. The same applies to you. MR NYOKA Yes, I will be ready Mr Chairman and I assure the Committee that it will not slip my mind, thank you. CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, your registrar indicated that you would like to see us in chambers after this, is that still necessary or was ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON My registrar indicated? MR BOOYENS That you would like to see us in chambers. CHAIRPERSON No, I think ...[intervention] JUDGE PILLAY Mr Booyens, I want to see you, you alone. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, we adjourn. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS