amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-10-20 CAPE TOWN 1 GEOFFREY BENZIEN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54671&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/capetown/capetown_benzien2.htm MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON I would like please the photographers to desist from doing that whilst we are proceeding the evidence, I would appeal to you not to do that please. JUDGE WILSON Will you please move from in front. CHAIRPERSON MR COOK Thank you Chairperson, may I continue? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR COOK CHAIRPERSON Yes, proceed. MR COOK "He still suffers from nightmares with contents that relate to his work in the security branch, in example the interrogation of people" Please just turn the page. "It is my professional opinion that he suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder as a direct result of the work he did in the security branch, in example the methods he used in the interrogation of people in order to obtain information from them" The second paragraph which is of importance here is in the centre: "He cannot recall important features or detail about the events" The third paragraph in the middle: "Typical of patients with PTSD"...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR COOK "He cannot recall" And the third paragraph in the middle starts with the sentence: "Typical of patients with PTSD" Do you have that? "He had tunnelled memories, that is he could only remember certain aspects of the situation and had no recollection of other aspects of the situation. He brought out many memories because of the traumatic nature of these incidents. This was specifically true of his memories regarding the interrogation of people". The next paragraph: "It is my professional opinion that Mr Benzien is not being intentionally vague about detail regarding his work in the security branch. I am convinced that his weak memory is due to PTSD and major depression, as I encounter this phenomena almost daily in my work with such patients" The last paragraph at the bottom, second line from the bottom: "He expressed remorse and self loathing and wished that he was never appointed to the task" Next page, page 4(3): "The patient had at least two of the following symptoms of hyper-arousal that were not present before the traumatic events or events" A list is then mentioned there. Please turn to page 5, the paragraph which reads: "Concentration: Mr Benzien has severe impairment of concentration and memory for detail. Other symptoms are indecisiveness and difficulty in thinking clearly. This symptom is also a main feature of PTSD and has been disclosed more fully in 6.1" Paragraph 7 - The Conclusion: "Mr Benzien suffered from severe PTSD and a major depressive episode caused by the events he experienced in the course of his duties" The next paragraph: "In my professional opinion Mr Benzien does not suffer from a personality disorder which includes anti-social personality disorder also known as psychopathic" Page 6, right at the top: "His personal life therefore does not evidence the aggression showed in the execution of his duty. Both PTSD and major depression impairs a patients memory and it becomes evident during therapy that Mr Benzien has blocked out large areas of experience. This has been a painful process which started long before the act of applying for amnesty and after seeing his suffering during the last six months. I do not believe that he will make a mockery of the process he is presently participating in, the toll his work has taken from him and his family has been too great. He was a good detective who had an excellent record in breaking crime and because of his success he was recruited to a position that has broken him mentally and physically". JUDGE WILSON Sorry, the last exhibit you handed in, what exhibit is that? MR BRINK JUDGE WILSON D? MR COOK D. The inquest procedures would be E, the documentation regarding it. At this stage I hand in the entire proceedings of the inquest, you will be handed a copy - Mr Brink will give it to you but at this stage what I would like to give you is the final conclusion of the inquest on the prescribed form, perhaps I can hand that in now. CHAIRPERSON What is the name of the Magistrate, can you tell us? MR COOK Mr Schagen. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell that? MR COOK It is on the paper I gave you - Exhibit E, the second ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon, thank you. JUDGE WILSON MR COOK I continue then to hand in the next exhibit, that is the Amnesty Application of Superintendent Liebenberg. I have one copy which I will hand in at this stage - his application should be before you at this stage but this could be Exhibit F. ADV DE JAGER Mr Cook, are you aware of the fact that that application is on the role for hearing now? MR COOK CHAIRPERSON MR COOK ADV DE JAGER MR COOK ADV DE JAGER But when it gets to that, you can actually object. MR COOK Yes, I have no problem with that, I would have liked him however to sit next to me but the General says he has no problem to sit in the front. CHAIRPERSON Mr Cook, you better take the stand where witnesses take please. MR COOK ADV DE JAGER Your full names? JOHANNES LODIWIKUS GRIEBENAUW (sworn states) MR COOK Thank you. Could you perhaps give your rank at this stage and what the situation is - where are you at this stage? MR GRIEBENAUW MR COOK Where were you stationed at that stage - just before you retired? MR GRIEBENAUW I was in Pretoria. MR COOK You were at head office - Crime Information Service, is that correct? MR GRIEBENAUW Yes. MR COOK Now Paragraph 2, could you explain your period in office? MR GRIEBENAUW For the largest part of my period in office I was attached to the security branch and in that capacity I served in the following posts Windhoek, from 1964 to 1974 as an investigating officer in the security branch. 1975 - East London as commanding officer of that investigating unit, once again security branch. 1982 - Paarl, second in command, security branch in the Boland. 1983 to 1985 in Cape Town as commanding officer of the investigative unit in Cape Town. 1986 - May to 1989 as the commanding officer of the security branch in Border, East London. 1989 - May to December 1989, second in command security branch Western Cape. December 1989 to December 1990, regional commanding officer, security branch Western Cape. January 1991 to July 1992, in Pretoria - Crime Investigation and Information. From the 1st of August 1992 to May 1993, I was seconded to the Qwandabele Government where I acted as the commissioner of police. MR COOK Do you know Superintendent Liebenberg and Captain Benzien? MR GRIEBENAUW MR COOK MR GRIEBENAUW That is correct. MR COOK MR GRIEBENAUW ADV DE JAGER Are you now reading on page 2, paragraph five? MR GRIEBENAUW There was legislation and departmental regulations and provisions determined exactly how a detainee should be dealt with in terms of Section 29 of Act 74 of 1982 - The Internal Security Act. This legislation and regulations placed certain obligations on the inspector of detainees, district surgeons, magistrates and commanding officers on various levels and attached to other divisions of the police. From time to time it also necessitated reporting to certain bodies. There was a register which had to be kept up to date and visitors to the detainees would have to fill in this register during their visits to the detainees and have to sign it. There was a prescribed procedure to be followed should a Section 29 detainee lay a complaint. The South African police was since 1967 used to do border duty in Zimbabwe and obviously they had to receive special training for that and in this way they were introduced to conventional warfare. This exposure resulted in the fact that principle of minimum of violence was severely prejudiced and to a certain extent was actually just swept aside. Border duty for the police was later extended to Namibia and also in relation to our own borders with our neighbouring countries, which brought about more and more exposure to conventional warfare. Even later the battle which was being waged on our borders moved to within our country and this condition and situation and how it developed was discussed by the former Commissioner of Police, General van der Merwe, in a statement which he handed in the amnesty application of Brigadier Jack Cronje and others and a copy has been attached to this statement in front of you now. "Amongst other things the principles of minimum violence and the bringing of perpetrators before criminal courts was to be seriously effected and even eroded". MR COOK MR GRIEBENAUW Page 8, paragraph 10 - three quarters of the way down the page the dates are set out "Other channels which were to be used included sympathetic organisations, the distribution of pamphlets and the establishment of revolutionary themes for the ensuing years, themes included 1979 - The Year of the Spear 1985 - The Years of the Cadre Page 9, paragraph 10: Page 10, right at the bottom - it is actually page 11, yes it is page 11, the second last paragraph: "By July 1985, it was reported that only 5 of the 38 Black Government structures had survived and 396 innocent people had already been murdered. In destroying these structures the ANC was creating the necessary prerequisites for liberated zones". Then on page 15, paragraph 13: And at the bottom of that very same page, we continue - last line: "It was very often quite sufficient to be merely suspected of being a sell-out of collaborator in order to pay the ultimate price in the most dreadful manner". And then page 18, which refers certain statistics regarding necklace murders, and here I would like to point out the following: On the next page where it deals with: "Setting alight of persons", once again we have the same position there. Paragraph 16 on page 19: "As a direct result of this particular revolutionary climate, the South African police and the South African defence force were compelled to pool their various resources to combat the ever increasing tide of unrest and violence. Joint planning was undertaken in terms of the various structures of the National Management System which functioned of the authority of the State Security Council and which also incorporated the constitutional, economic and Social Affairs Cabinet Committees. All Government departments were eventually drawn into the National Management System in an all out effort to find solutions to the ever increasing security problem". Back on page 3, paragraph 8.1: "Since the ANC/SACP Alliance and other organisations decided to topple the Government by means of violence, the South African police and more specifically the security branch, were actually facing a super human task. On the one hand they were supposed to maintain law and order according to normal legal principles and on the other hand they were supposed to protect the Government and society against violence and acts of terror in circumstances in which the other party was not bound by any rules" JUDGE WILSON Sorry, what page and paragraph? MR GRIEBENAUW Page 3 Mr Chairperson, down paragraph 8.1. CHAIRPERSON MR GRIEBENAUW With the establishment of the United Democratic Front in 1983, a new phase was entered. Many organisations joined the UDF country-wide and although it could never be determined exactly in what respect the ANC/SACP Alliance controlled the UDF, there was close co-operation between them. And under leadership of the UDF, the defiance against the Government and Government institutions escalated quite sharply and this was followed by a civil disobedience with a view to making the country ungovernable. During 1985, the ANC Consultative Conference in Kobwe, Zambia took place, during which it was decided that the distinction between so-called hard and soft targets no longer applied. Violence escalated and many civilians, including defenceless women and children were cruelly killed, injured or maimed. The SACP/ANC Alliance, UDF and other organisations who were all striving for the same objective, used everything in their power to make the country ungovernable and especially to alienate the Black community from the police and Government. Intimidation was used on a large scale to force members of the Black community to work with them. Members of the security forces and in particular South African police, were regarded as so-called hard targets and could be killed at random and at will and became more and more the victims of violence. Black members in Black townships lived in fear of their lives and property day by day. Once again it must be pointed out that there was a chain of command or a line of communication from grassroots level right to the highest levels of command, and it would therefore not have been too far fetched to assume that an instruction coming from a commanding officer sitting in a system, was actually an instruction coming from the highest level of authority. The objective of these different structures was - in respect of the Government, the security forces and the different State departments, to actually join them together in a cohesive unit. The structures succeeded to a large extent to actually carry out this object. The South African police and more particularly the security branch or rather from the point of view of the South African police and in particular the security branch, the interest were to ensure the effective maintenance of law and order and also to guarantee the safety of the community. And this was so closely interwoven with the activities of the police that the police in this respect and in the circumstances which obtained at the time, was necessarily seen as an ally of Government. In the past time, members of the then Security Council have testified before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and I would like to refer very briefly to certain quotations as it appeared in "Die Burger", namely "Die Burger, Wednesday, 15 October 1997 - I quote: "But according to Botha, not one of use who were in the previous Government can say today that there was no suspicion from our side that members of the South African police were involved in certain irregular activities". The other heading: "Use of Language Leads to Illegal Conduct", in the same newspaper he, Botha said that it was unfortunate that certain sentences in State Security Council Minutes are now being taken out of the context in which they were used, for instance reference to: "eliminate". In reality it is followed by explanations which amount to detention without trial and it is a fact that our country has been placed into a certain war psychosis where such words and expressions which were gained for military usage, has now become part of our vernacular and I now realise with a sense of shock that this terminology apparently gave rise to illegal conduct by policemen - that is what Mr Vlok said. What is of importance here is what the consequences were of this interpretation by policemen of terms used by the State Security Council and according to them, had an innocent connotation or interpretation. If it led to the torture or even the killing of persons in respect of whom those words were used, you would then expect that the State Security Council would immediately take suitable steps to prevent a repetition. And obviously I gave members under my command instructions to do everything in their power to apprehend people who were guilty of these things and to extract as much information as possible from the detainees so that the entire network operative in the country could be disrupted in time to prevent further loss of life. This was the only way in which we could protect lives and properties. Anybody who in any way had responsibility in respect of a Section 29 detainee and of whom it is here alleged that he was assaulted or tortured in any other way, must have been aware or must have suspected that unconventional interrogation methods were being used. And their silence in this regard can be interpreted as at least a condemnation of it, if not approval. I have no doubt that if these members believed that they could rely on the protection of their seniors and politicians and if this was not the case, these specific acts would never have been committed. I also have no doubt in my mind that as investigations continue, politicians must assume more and more responsibility for that which happened during their reign. It is ultimately a fact that the police was one of the instruments used to achieve their purpose. Thank you Chairperson. MR COOK At this stage General, the document - The Foundation for Equality before the Law document, that was also discussed during the drafting of this report? MR GRIEBENAUW That is so. And large portions of the other book to which I referred: "The Other Side of the Story", was also taken from this and the Security Council mechanism is discussed in more detail there, what the purpose of it was and how it was put together for the first time. ADV DE JAGER MR GRIEBENAUW This was a submission Chairperson, made by the Foundation for Equality before the Law and this was a submission made to the Truth Commission. MR COOK And then we have the statement by the General, that will be Exhibit G and the Foundation for Equality before the Law will also be handed in and that can be Exhibit H. CHAIRPERSON Yes. JUDGE WILSON Sorry, can you just explain to me - Exhibit G, is that the statement that we read certain passages from? MR COOK CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR COOK Thank you Chairperson, that then concludes my leading of evidence on behalf of General Griebenauw, so he can now be cross-examined. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COOK CHAIRPERSON Mr Papier, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PAPIER Thank you Honourable Chair, just a few questions. With you leave, could I just clarify one aspect with my learned colleague Honourable Chair? Thank you. Thank you Honourable Chair, just before I proceed with the cross-examination of the witness, my learned colleague Advocate Cook has handed in several documents, one of which is the report from Ria Kotze, the psychologist. I would just like to place it on record at this stage that the report was handed to - made available to me on Thursday and we specifically requested this witness to be available today. I note that the witness is not available and we also note that the report is dated the 15th of July 1997. I would just like to place that on record at this stage. Thank you Honourable Chair. If I may now proceed with a few questions to the witness. MR GRIEBENAUW Yes, I have perused the application. MR PAPIER And is it correct that you specifically looked at the Ashley Kriel incident as well? MR GRIEBENAUW I looked at that as well. MR PAPIER Now, were you directly involved in this incident at all - the Ashley Kriel incident? MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR PAPIER Indirectly involved in the Ashley Kriel incident? MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR PAPIER Did you have any knowledge of the Ashley Kriel incident? MR GRIEBENAUW As a result of conversations, yes. MR PAPIER Was this before the shooting - the killing of Ashley Kriel or was it after the killing of Ashley Kriel? MR GRIEBENAUW It was afterwards. MR PAPIER So if I understand your answers correctly, you had not issued any instructions whatsoever with regard to the Ashley Kriel incident, is that correct? MR GRIEBENAUW No, most definitely not, I was not in Cape Town at the time. MR PAPIER The applicant Captain Benzien, also testified before this Honourable Committee that he was not instructed to arrest or to shoot - to kill Ashley Kriel. Are you able to shed any further light on that evidence? MR GRIEBENAUW MR PAPIER I have no further questions, thank you Honourable Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PAPIER CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink, are there any questions you wish to put before him? MR BRINK Mr Chairman, I normally come at the end. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DONAN Mr Griebenauw, do you prefer to be called General or Mr - before we start? MR GRIEBENAUW You can decide for yourself. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN For you personally applied for an amnesty? MR GRIEBENAUW For no matter which this Commission is aware. MR DONAN In respect of what have you applied for an amnesty? MR GRIEBENAUW I prefer not to answer that. MR DONAN Because - are you here to, as I understand this process of amnesty, the idea is that the whole story will be told and on that basis people will be forgiven. Are you here to tell the truth and help in that process? MR GRIEBENAUW Absolutely yes. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW That is so. MR DONAN So who would be in a better position to assist the court than you in respect of that period? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW I think it was Brigadier Strydom but I stand to be corrected. MR DONAN Do you agree with me that what is recorded here up to page 6, was the regular evidence that you or Mr Stadler would give in every security trial in regard to whether witnesses should give evidence in camera ...[inaudible] the punishment of the accused? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Well what he says and I put it to you directly, he says that they - that he systematically tortured people and than he systematically lied about it in courts. Did you know about that? CHAIRPERSON In other words he denied torturing people, in court during the trial? MR DONAN Thank you. MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW That would have been the necessary consequence, yes. MR DONAN And were you aware that the people under your command were lying about torture in courts of this land? MR GRIEBENAUW Yes, indeed. MR DONAN They were lying both here in the Western Cape when you were in charge and in the other areas where you were in charge, according to your CV on page 1 of this document Exhibit G? MR GRIEBENAUW I will answer the question - yes, definitely. MR DONAN So there was this systematic process right throughout South Africa, firstly to torture detainees and then secondly to put them through a court process and to lie about the ...[inaudible] of their statement. MR GRIEBENAUW There was no laid down procedure but that was customary, yes. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW I did not add Angola but that is so. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW No, I do not know of his evidence. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW That is true Mr Chairman. MR DONAN The ANC infiltrated - particularly their MK members, into South Africa to continue this war? MR GRIEBENAUW That is correct. MR DONAN They perpetrate - they visited and made incursions into urban and rural areas in South Africa and they set up safe bases? MR GRIEBENAUW That is true Chairman. MR DONAN And at a certain stage you decided together with the South African defence force, that you were at war with the ANC? MR GRIEBENAUW And together with the Government, Chairman. MR DONAN Now when you decided that you were at war with the ANC, what you did was you then said: "We can resort to other means to those that are prescribed by the rules", such as torture. MR GRIEBENAUW That was not stipulated anywhere. MR DONAN What was stipulated? MR GRIEBENAUW What was stipulated was that information had to be received as soon as possible of where terrorists were, to track them down, to get information and to arrest them. MR DONAN And how did you interpret that? MR GRIEBENAUW They were simply told that: "You will get the answer and you will stem the tide". And that they will use their own methods and it was accepted and the people looked away and this - the people accepted that what we did was correct. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW That is not true, I did not put it that way. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW It was never so. What I said - and I cannot interpret it differently, there were a set of rules and different organisations had a responsibility to see that these rules were carried out but not one of those organisations in cases where they were not followed, accepted responsibility for this. MR DONAN There was a general understanding that you had to do whatever justified the end justified means and you had to do whatever was necessary? MR GRIEBENAUW That was so. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW I think that words are being put into my mouth now - it is not that he knew that he had to torture people. MR DONAN But he got an instruction that he had to deal ...[intervention] MR GRIEBENAUW Yes. MR DONAN That he had to deal with these people as quickly as possible? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN And that meant that if necessary he had to torture them. MR GRIEBENAUW It could be interpreted as such but he did not have the instruction to torture people as far as I know Mr Chairman. MR DONAN How did he get that belief? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN But that must have been - that belief must have been communicated by somebody above him, he must have had a common understanding with somebody directly above him. MR GRIEBENAUW I gave an explanation and I said that after such things were done and one still received an award or a medal for - that it could be accepted that it was condoned. I could not have explained this more clearly. MR DONAN Did anybody ever say to you that these were the methods I used today? MR GRIEBENAUW No, never. MR DONAN How long were you in the security police? MR GRIEBENAUW 25 years Mr Chairman. MR DONAN And in that time nobody ever said to you: "Look, this is how I got the information out of this particular detainee"? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Did you ever see any of your assistants and colleagues in action torturing people? MR GRIEBENAUW No, Chairman. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW That is true. MR DONAN Did you ever know a detainee by the name Shahieda Issel? MR GRIEBENAUW Yes. MR DONAN And on the 17th of November 1985 - according to instructions that I was given by her in the Yengeni trial, she was taken into a lift at Caledon Square after 1pm and after she had been abused by a certain Mr Nel she met another Mr Mostert. Were Mr Nel and Mr Mostert under your command? MR GRIEBENAUW That is true. MR DONAN And Mr Mostert indecently assaulted her which you may or may not know about, do you know about that? MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN That she then says that she went into a room where she sat down and there was Mr Mostert, Mr Nel, a Mr Trollop - did you know a Mr Trollop? MR GRIEBENAUW I knew him, he served under me. MR DONAN And you. You were all together and you questioned her about her personal life, do you remember that? MR GRIEBENAUW I cannot remember that at all. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW That I could have a questions, I acknowledge that. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW I do not know anything about that. MR DONAN And then Mr Mostert questioned her and he swore at her and he hit her on her chest and shoulder and she felt sore? MR GRIEBENAUW I have no knowledge of this. MR DONAN Do you remember appearing at an identification parade later? MR GRIEBENAUW That is correct. MR DONAN And was she called upon to identify the people in the room? MR GRIEBENAUW That is correct. MR DONAN And did she identify you? MR GRIEBENAUW Among others, yes. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW The incident was investigated and they refused to go to trial. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW I never did it, I do not know the existence of such a system. MR DONAN But these - she was in your presence and she was - and men under your command were assaulting her. MR GRIEBENAUW I hear this is being alleged. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW Because I did not see it happen, it did not happen in my presence. MR DONAN But you knew this kind of thing was going on? CHAIRPERSON MR DONAN I understand ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR DONAN I quite agree, I shall try to be more specific. MR GRIEBENAUW That is possibly so. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW Not that I know of. MR DONAN Did you hear her screaming? JUDGE WILSON Who was that again please? MR DONAN June Essau. MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN Did you know that she brought an application to the Supreme Court to stop your people ...[intervention] MR GRIEBENAUW Yes, I know. MR DONAN From assaulting her? MR GRIEBENAUW That is so. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW Please repeat. MR DONAN Did you know that she was being assaulted? MR GRIEBENAUW No, the allegation was made. MR DONAN How did you get the information - how did you think your men were getting information from her? MR GRIEBENAUW I believed that they possibly assaulted her but I did not know it for a fact. MR DONAN What exactly did you believe for example, that Shahieda Issel did wrong? MR GRIEBENAUW She must have been involved in the underground structures of the ANC in the Western Cape if I remember correctly. MR DONAN Anything - any specific physical danger that she posed involving weapons? MR GRIEBENAUW As part of that yes, Mr Chairman - it would have been of terrorism. JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry, can I interrupt here. When she launched an application, I assume it was an interdict against further assault? MR DONAN It was. JUDGE NGOEPE I see Mr Donan agrees with me. Knowing the way your men used to work, did you speak to them and say: "Hey, did you in fact assault this person"? MR GRIEBENAUW No, I did not do that but I accepted that she was assaulted. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you file any affidavits to oppose that application? MR GRIEBENAUW Yes, we did. JUDGE NGOEPE You denied the allegations of assault? MR GRIEBENAUW Yes, that is correct. JUDGE NGOEPE But you knew that that might not have been the truth? MR GRIEBENAUW That is so. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW That is possibly so. MR DONAN And she too was assaulted by Mr Mostert, did you know about that? MR GRIEBENAUW Let us group together everything and let us deal with all the names, then I can give you a clear answer but to take them one by one - some of them I will not remember others I will. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW All that I can tell you is that if I can get the files - the specific administrative files, then I can give evidence - I cannot do anything without them. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW I heard that. MR DONAN Where did you hear it? MR GRIEBENAUW Among the members of the staff. MR DONAN And what exactly did you hear? MR GRIEBENAUW Simply that: "He will make one talk". MR DONAN Did you ask for him to be transferred to the particular unit? MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN How did it come about that he arrived there? MR GRIEBENAUW At that stage I was not stationed in the Cape. MR DONAN You agree with me though that his speciality was torturing men? MR GRIEBENAUW Possibly one of his specialities. MR DONAN What were his others then? MR GRIEBENAUW A very good investigative officer. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW That is correct. MR DONAN What was his speciality? MR GRIEBENAUW Nothing in particular that I can remember. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW I have no knowledge of that. MR DONAN Do you know about - where you present in the Western Cape during the Yengeni trial? MR GRIEBENAUW Please give me a date, then I can reply. MR DONAN I beg your pardon? MR GRIEBENAUW Can I please get a date, then I can give you an answer. MR DONAN Have you ever heard of Tony Yengeni? MR GRIEBENAUW Yes. MR DONAN Did you ever know that he was on trial? MR GRIEBENAUW Yes. MR DONAN Did you know that one of his co-accused was Jennifer Ann Schreiner? MR GRIEBENAUW Yes. MR DONAN Did you follow that trial at all? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Do you know that serious allegations were made about abuses of Ms Schreiner by Mr Mostert? MR GRIEBENAUW No, I have no knowledge of that. MR DONAN But you knew about the abuses raised by Shahieda Issel? MR GRIEBENAUW Yes. MR DONAN And Subeida Jaffa? MR GRIEBENAUW Among others yes, I think so. MR DONAN Eugene Essau? MR GRIEBENAUW I cannot remember. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW Not that I know of. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN How was it that Mr Mostert was let lose on a particular victim - detainee? MR GRIEBENAUW I never let him loose on anybody. MR DONAN Well who made the decision to allocate Mr Mostert to a woman rather than a man? MR GRIEBENAUW I never made such a decision. MR DONAN Who made the decision to let Mr Benzien loose on Mr Yengeni and Mr Kruser? MR GRIEBENAUW At that stage I was not here, I cannot reply. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN You can only assume that what was happening here was the same as was happening elsewhere? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW Ultimately yes, Sir. MR DONAN Were you ever told or were you ever aware that in war there are rules about how you conduct war? MR GRIEBENAUW Yes, vaguely I knew about. MR DONAN Were you told for example that there was a convention in 1949, signed by South Africa which related to internal wars ...[intervention] MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN You I understand it, like Mr Stadler were an expert on the ANC, did you know that the ANC had signed the protocol to the Geneva Convention? MR GRIEBENAUW Yes. MR DONAN And what did that mean? MR GRIEBENAUW I think that they had the distinction between military signals and non-military signals. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW I think this is accepted that members of the ANC/SACP who said that they were in war with South Africa and that our members - our political leaders said that, I think this well known. MR DONAN So both sides regarded themselves as being at war ...[intervention] MR GRIEBENAUW Absolutely. MR DONAN But your response to that is that you could then proceed to break the laws of war and there were no controls on how you detained - how you dealt with ...[intervention] MR GRIEBENAUW It was a matter of - our overhead function was to protect lives and property and in order to do this it was a question of we went further than we were allowed to. MR DONAN Now who gave the instructions? Essentially it was common cause that the methods you used were that the end justified the means, is that right? MR GRIEBENAUW Please repeat. MR DONAN It was a common understanding in the South African police force that the ends justified the means as far as your treatment of detainees was concerned? MR GRIEBENAUW I will concede to that. MR DONAN But did it make a difference who the particular detainee was? What was the criterion whether that person would talk, or whether that person had something to say about the war? MR GRIEBENAUW I do not understand the question. MR DONAN Was it a general system of interrogation used by the security police, did it involve torture systematically in respect of anyone who was detained? MR GRIEBENAUW No, Chairman, not all. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW I do not know about a criteria because I did not apply it. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN So there was simply no control, there was just a general understanding that anybody ...[intervention] MR GRIEBENAUW Absolutely, that is how I tried to explain it. MR DONAN Anybody could do whatever they wanted? MR GRIEBENAUW That was exactly what happened. MR DONAN To whoever they wanted? MR GRIEBENAUW If one wants to put it so broadly. I do not know what the ultimate result of that question is, the people had a function to control matters and they did not take the responsibility for this. JUDGE NGOEPE MR GRIEBENAUW Yes, let me put it this way. If a detainee should have been confronted with information which we already had and he wanted to make a confession by the nature of the cause, there would be no reason to assault such a person. Only if the security branch would have information that he had information with regard to terrorism - terrorist activities or that he was involved, then I would say that to prove the argument that we had to protect lives and property, then the man would have gone further because he had to perform his duty as was expected of him. And that was to get information as fast as possible about the activities and the planning and those involved. JUDGE NGOEPE MR GRIEBENAUW JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MR DONAN CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON You are still under your former oath. JOHANNES LODIWIKUS GRIEBENAUW (s.u.o) MR GRIEBENAUW Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Donan? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DONAN (cont) MR GRIEBENAUW I would say so yes. MR DONAN The questions were asked on the basis of information which the torturers had in their possession, is that correct? MR GRIEBENAUW The investigating officers. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN So it may well have been very unreliable information? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Or it could have come from informers? MR GRIEBENAUW Possibly. MR DONAN Who could have also not told the truth? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN CHAIRPERSON But Mr Donan, these possibilities exist, where are you getting? MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN So, just to repeat, the torturer could - or the interrogator could use any torture method he felt inclined to use? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Do you agree with me that there were some people who were specialised in various departments - like Mr Mostert who would deal with women? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Mr Benzien who would use very, very violent methods, did he have that reputation with you? MR GRIEBENAUW He had a reputation, yes. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW The phrase: "let loose" is a bit of a problem for me. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN Did you know that Mr Benzien - part of his repertoire would be to ask the detainee whether he knew that Mr Benzien had killed Ashley Kriel? MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN Did you know that Mr Mostert had a reputation for abusing women and the same technique would be used with him? A female detainee would be questioned by a good guy - a good cop, who would say: "Look, you can talk to me or you can talk to Mostert"? MR GRIEBENAUW No, Chairperson. MR DONAN What did you know about the methods that were being used by your men? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Did they receive any particular training in eliciting information from detainees? MR GRIEBENAUW No, not as far as I was aware. MR DONAN And Mr Benzien specifically? MR GRIEBENAUW Not as far as I know. MR DONAN Just before I leave the method, there had been evidence that for example, Tony Yengeni, Ashley Forbes, Niclo Pedro were stripped naked - he used to strip men, have you any idea why he did this? MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN Was there any purpose in doing that - in your professional opinion? MR GRIEBENAUW MS KHAMPEPE MR GRIEBENAUW MS KHAMPEPE MR GRIEBENAUW No. MS KHAMPEPE But surely one would have expected for those discussions to be held in view of the fact that a lot of pressure had been exerted by the politicians on the police, to contain the political situation in the country? One would have expected you to have held such discussions in order to evaluate which method would be best to use in a given situation. MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Thank you. Now you said in your evidence that at a certain stage there was a decision to use unconventional methods, is that correct? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN What was exactly the situation? MR GRIEBENAUW The circumstances which existed at the time, these circumstances dictated that success was the only criterion. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW JUDGE WILSON MR GRIEBENAUW I was aware of that. JUDGE WILSON Did you take part in it? MR GRIEBENAUW No. JUDGE WILSON Not even when you were doing the investigations yourself? MR GRIEBENAUW No, when I was in the lower ranks circumstances were not quite like that. I was transferred from South West Africa/Namibia when I was already a senior officer. MR DONAN Thank you. In 1986 you were in East London, where you? MR GRIEBENAUW Correct. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN CHAIRPERSON Those cases relate to matters that were non-political as well. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW That is so. MR DONAN And when did you first become aware of them? MR GRIEBENAUW Very early on in my career. MR DONAN When was that? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Can you identify a decade when you became aware that torture was used at all by the South African police? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW That is correct. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW Correct. MR DONAN Was there ever to your knowledge at any stage in your career, an order or direction that you may use torture or that you should use torture? MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN So then, would it be correct to say that every applicant who comes to this hearing for amnesty for torture, did not receive superior orders? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN But nobody can rely on a direct superior order to use unconventional methods? MR GRIEBENAUW JUDGE NGOEPE You can only say: "As far as you know"? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW No, definitely not. ADV DE JAGER MR GRIEBENAUW No, not as far as I knew. All I can say is that the commanding officers knew about the events and incidents and their conduct made it such that the sub-ordinates would assume that their conduct was being approved of. ADV DE JAGER MR GRIEBENAUW What I heard I actually heard via the media, in no other way. ADV DE JAGER So you were not aware whether in some cases there might have been direct orders or not? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Did you ever in the course of your career, use or hear the word: "eliminate" - in the course of your duties? MR GRIEBENAUW I know the word. MR DONAN What does it mean? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Did you ever receive instructions to eliminate anybody? MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN Did you ever give such an order to eliminate anybody? MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN To go on where I said we would end off, you say in your last paragraph Can you tell the Committee what indications there were that torture would be condoned or they would be protected - your members, your - members of your various units and people under you or above you? MR GRIEBENAUW The easiest example to perhaps give is the case of Mr Benzien. There were certain charges laid against him - administratively speaking, a medal was awarded to him for combating of terrorism with out him ever having done border duty - that is the simplest way in which I can answer the question. MR DONAN So that illustrates your point? MR GRIEBENAUW Absolutely. MR DONAN Who gave him the medal, whose decision was it? MR GRIEBENAUW It would have been the Minister. MR DONAN And who was the Minister at that time? MR GRIEBENAUW I have to guess, I think it could have been Minister Vlok. MR DONAN So you say if he was - if Minister Vlok was the Minister at that time, he would have both known that Mr Benzien was using torture and with that knowledge he would nevertheless have given him a medal? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Why is that? Why must he have known? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN "In dealing with the unconventional strategies from the side of the Government, I want to make it clear from the outset that within my knowledge and experience, they never included the authorisation of assassination, murder, torture, rape, assault or the like. I have never been part of any decision taken by Cabinet, the State Security Council or any Committee authorising or instructing the Commission of such gross violations of human rights, nor did I individually directly or indirectly ever suggest, order or authorise any such action". Have you heard that statement before? MR GRIEBENAUW Yes, I have. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW CHAIRPERSON MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN ADV DE JAGER MR GRIEBENAUW Certainly, that was so from my earliest days and the first time I heard this was in the time of General Hendrik van der Berg when he was head of the security police. ADV DE JAGER And what exactly did it mean? MR GRIEBENAUW ADV DE JAGER Did it also entail that no questions would be asked about things? MR GRIEBENAUW Indeed, yes. ADV DE JAGER MR GRIEBENAUW Yes, indeed, I was wrong in that regard, in my view in those days we thought that we were defending the sovereignty of the State but we in fact defending the political system of apartheid. MR DONAN May I just divert - I was going to go onto the structures, to this need to know. Did you understand that because of the need to know - was there a need to know instruction that you ever received? MR GRIEBENAUW I often received it. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN And in fact you knew their methods? MR GRIEBENAUW Please repeat. MR DONAN You knew the methods, that torture was being used by the people under you? MR GRIEBENAUW I knew what was going on. MR DONAN And everybody above you should have known the same thing, that torture was being used? MR GRIEBENAUW Yes, not the methods but the fact that it was being used. MR DONAN So the need to know is not really relevant to the questions of whether people knew because they were prevented from knowing by the need to know every body knew? MR GRIEBENAUW The need to know was not a written rule, when an order was given - said to you: "Remember this is going to be dealt with on a need to know basis". MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW I would agree with that. MR DONAN You left Cape Town for East London in 1985, according to your CV, paragraph 2 of your report. It says MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN At that stage you were in charge of the investigation unit? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN And directly under was Willem Smit? MR GRIEBENAUW That is correct. MR DONAN Did he succeed you when you left? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN And who would that other person have been? MR GRIEBENAUW It could possibly have been Brigadier Viljoen. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW I knew him very well. MR DONAN And under him were - according to the evidence, Mr Benzien, Mr Nel, Mr van Zyl, Mr Nortje, Mr Piet Goosen and Mr Kotze? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN There was also an intelligence unit, who was the commander at the time that you left Cape Town? MR GRIEBENAUW The commanding officer of which unit? MR DONAN Of the intelligence unit in the security police within the Western Cape. MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Who was Piet Slabbert? MR GRIEBENAUW He was a security policeman. MR DONAN What was his rank and what was his function? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Did you know need to know? MR GRIEBENAUW No, but perhaps if the questions could be put to me clearer. MR DONAN ADV DE JAGER Is it being put to you in he way a politician would? MR GRIEBENAUW Yes, to provide for another question. MR DONAN Attie Trollop, who was he? MR GRIEBENAUW He was also a security policeman. MR DONAN And what was his function? MR GRIEBENAUW He worked for the investigating unit at one stage and then also at the intelligence unit. MR DONAN What was his position there? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Gordon Brookbanks, do you know him? CHAIRPERSON What is that name again? MR DONAN Gordon Brookbanks. MR GRIEBENAUW No, not at all. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW ...[inaudible] MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN And what does he do? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Mr Viljoen? MR GRIEBENAUW Also retired. MR DONAN Willem Smit? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Piet Slabbert? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Attie Trollop? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Let me proceed in another direction then - from another direction ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Rather to another direction, from another direction would mean the same question but in a different way. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW At various stages and different levels. MR DONAN Could you tell the Committee please? MR GRIEBENAUW At one stage I was in the Eastern Cape and I was the commanding officer of the security branch, I served on the Joint Management System for the Eastern Province. MR DONAN What sort of decisions were you taking at that level together with them? MR GRIEBENAUW It consisted of discussions and joint decision making. MR DONAN Decisions regarding what? MR GRIEBENAUW About the threat facing the Republic. MR DONAN The Judicial Management Committees, did you have any connection with them? MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN What about Vlakplaas? What was your relationship at any stage of your career with Vlakplaas? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN And when you were in the Eastern Cape and the Western Cape? MR GRIEBENAUW In respect of Vlakplaas, I was very far removed from it. MR DONAN Yes, but were you in communication with the operatives there? MR GRIEBENAUW My communication was all done via the headquarters and from there onwards it would be referred to the necessary divisions. MR DONAN Did you ever bring the operatives to the Western Cape or were they ever used in the Western Cape? MR GRIEBENAUW I never brought them here but I requested them to come down here. MR DONAN And when was that? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN Why did you ask for them to be brought to the Western Cape? MR GRIEBENAUW To identify terrorist who had infiltrated the country. MR DONAN What exactly was the nature of your request? MR GRIEBENAUW To send people who could identify terrorists who were at that stage active in the Western Cape, that was that. MR DONAN What type of people? MR GRIEBENAUW Rehabilitated terrorists. MR DONAN And who was sent? MR GRIEBENAUW MR DONAN What prompted you to make this request. MR GRIEBENAUW The information at my disposal. MR DONAN What was that information? MR GRIEBENAUW That there were terrorists present in the Western Cape. MR DONAN Was that the full extent of your information? MR GRIEBENAUW Yes. MR DONAN Did you know who the so-called terrorists were? MR GRIEBENAUW No, if did I would have traced them and brought them before court. MR DONAN Why did you want to do that? MR GRIEBENAUW Is that not common cause, there was an Act which provided that is was an offence. MR DONAN So that was one law that you did obey, you had to bring them before the courts? MR GRIEBENAUW The was the Act in force. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW Not all of them. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW That is a generalisation, yes. MR DONAN So you would get whatever answers you needed from them? MR GRIEBENAUW Normally, yes. MR DONAN And then you would tell them that if they wanted to improve their situation, they would go to a Magistrate and repeat exactly what you had told them? MR GRIEBENAUW Not to improve their situation Sir. MR DONAN Well do what? MR GRIEBENAUW I never told him what to say, if I was doing the interrogation I would have given him the choice. If he wanted to make a confession that he could go to a Magistrate. MR DONAN MR GRIEBENAUW No, if it amounted to a confession, they would have been taken to a Magistrate. MR DONAN Did people volunteer to go and repeat to a Magistrate ...[intervention] MR GRIEBENAUW However strange it may sound yes, that happened. MR DONAN And is this something that suddenly came to them after a period of detention under Section 29 - a revelation that they should go there ...[intervention] MR GRIEBENAUW Sometimes and sometimes earlier. MR DONAN Sorry? MR GRIEBENAUW Sometime and sometimes earlier. MR DONAN And then this was - this repetition of what they had been told under threat of torture, was then presented in the courts? MR GRIEBENAUW Not what they have been told. MR DONAN No, what they ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR DONAN CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DONAN What they did in front of the Magistrates, was repeat what they had said to their interrogators under Section 29 and then that was put up in the trial as evidence. MR GRIEBENAUW That is correct. MR DONAN And the people who supported the freeness and voluntaries of that were people like Mr Benzien who systematically lied? MR GRIEBENAUW Everyone involved. MR DONAN Were all the security police involved in this system? MR GRIEBENAUW No, I said that everyone who was involved would have given evidence there. MR DONAN But that is the system they would have used? MR GRIEBENAUW What ...[intervention] MR DONAN CHAIRPERSON MR DONAN Did you participate in this particular method? MR GRIEBENAUW With regard to whom? MR DONAN In respect of presenting evidence to courts to convict people on the basis ...[intervention] MR GRIEBENAUW I took many people to a Magistrate who wanted to give evidence. MR DONAN Of evidence that had been elicited by torture? MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN And that was presented untruthfully to the ...[intervention] MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR DONAN But Mr Benzien says he has. MR GRIEBENAUW It is possibly so. MR DONAN NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DONAN CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Among those who had appeared on the previous occasion as victims as what had been done to them by Mr Benzien and who are opposing this application, are there any who are present here today who would like to put questions to this witness? Mr Papier what would you say, what is your information in that regard? MR PAPIER Honourable Chair, my learned colleague Advocate Donan appears for the victims of torture, that is my understanding thank you Honourable Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink, are any question you wish to put to this witness? MR BRINK Just one or two Mr Chairman. Mr Griebenauw, you mentioned the question of pressure having been put upon the South African police, more particularly the security police, pressure to curb the unrest which was occurring in the Western Cape. MR GRIEBENAUW That is so. MR BRINK Was pressure put on you? MR GRIEBENAUW Yes, on various opportunities. If I can just describe this, it was when hand grenades hit the Western Cape - I was told that I had to get an answer, we cannot allow this any longer. MR BRINK Who said that? MR GRIEBENAUW It was from one of the Generals at head office, I can unfortunately not remember his name. MR BRINK Were you reporting directly to head office in Pretoria? MR GRIEBENAUW That is true. MR BRINK Did anyone at headquarters ever ask you how it was that Mr Benzien was so successful in extracting information from suspected terrorists? MR GRIEBENAUW No. MR BRINK You were told that unrest had to be brought to an end, were you given any instruction as to how that was to happen? MR GRIEBENAUW From time to time instructions were given among others, during the emergency situation there were emergency regulations and orders that as many as possible of the people had to be apprehended so that they cannot organise the unrest. MR BRINK Yes, and to get information, not just to keep them out of political activity but to get information? MR GRIEBENAUW Yes, that is true. MR BRINK And were you given a free hand by headquarters to use whatever means you wished to affect that purpose? MR GRIEBENAUW MR BRINK You were given authority as you understood it, to take part if necessary in torture and/or killing? MR GRIEBENAUW MR BRINK MR GRIEBENAUW I will agree with that. MR BRINK Thank you Mr Chairman. Sorry, just one other thing as a matter of interest, who would have recommended the award of the medal for combating terrorism to Mr Benzien? MR GRIEBENAUW His direct commanding officer. MR BRINK Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK JUDGE WILSON You say in your statement that you asked Advocate Cook to request the police to make the relevant Section 29 dockets available? MR GRIEBENAUW That is indeed so Mr Chairperson. JUDGE WILSON Was this of all Section 29 detainees in the district, not just one or two people? MR GRIEBENAUW It was reference to the victims who are involved at the moment. JUDGE WILSON And you were told that none of the dockets were available? MR GRIEBENAUW None whatsoever Sir. JUDGE WILSON Who told you this or do you know who said this? MR GRIEBENAUW JUDGE WILSON Thank you. JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Griebenauw, can you tell us exactly what the basis is of your saying that your juniors or any other members of the security branch for that matter, could have come to the impression that they had been authorised to torture people? MR GRIEBENAUW Secondly, if complaints were made that they were investigated and that no steps were taken against them and that in the case of Captain Benzien a medal was awarded to him, then this should have been condoned. JUDGE NGOEPE MR GRIEBENAUW JUDGE NGOEPE MR GRIEBENAUW My commentary on that is that I think that there was a responsibility on the organisation who awarded the medal - after all the publication that was given to complaints against Captain Benzien, to determine what the position was before the award was made. JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you. MS KHAMPEPE General, during questioning by Mr Donan, you conceded that a Mr Mostert was used predominantly to interrogate women. MR GRIEBENAUW MS KHAMPEPE It is an error then on my note because I thought that is what you conceded to, sorry. MR GRIEBENAUW No, that is not so. CHAIRPERSON Are there any questions in re-examination Mr Cook? MR COOK No cross-examination. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. MR GRIEBENAUW Thank you very much Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Are you calling any other witnesses? MR COOK WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Donan? MR DONAN heard that the trauma occurred many years ago and it did not manifest itself during trials at which Mr Benzien testified - where he testified with complete knowledge, it seems to have arisen in 1994 when these particular proceedings were contemplated. ADV DE JAGER MR DONAN CHAIRPERSON Mr Cook, is there anything that you wish to say in that regard? MR COOK MR DONAN Is my - my learned friend is telling a half truth, I did inform the - there was a meeting, I did inform the meeting that I would not be present, I did inform Mr Papier I would not be present and I understand from Mr Papier that the concession that my learned friend is talking about has not been made. ADV DE JAGER Were you notified of the conference? MR DONAN I certainly was, I have a letter somewhere here and I did give timeless notice to the person in charge that I - the day before, that I would not be able to attend, that to the extent that - I was in a part heard matter, when I came out of that matter I would come here immediately but that Mr Papier would be there and Mr Saldanha would be there. And they would represent me so to speak and they were authorised, they had my mandate to deal with whatever arose. MR COOK ADV DE JAGER MS KHAMPEPE I thought Mr Papier made it quite clear that he attended the pre-hearing conference and that no agreement was reached at all concerning the admission of the report before us. MR COOK ADV DE JAGER But Mr Cook, what we are being told is that he had the mandate to represent them on that particular day. MR COOK Well, we can ask Mr Brink. JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry, I think Mr Cook, if I understand - and Mr Donan could indicate by shaking or nodding his head to save time, do I understand Mr Donan to say that by Thursday last week he was not as yet representing the other victims? Is that what you are saying? MR DONAN And I put her in touch with Mrs - sorry, Ashley Forbes in fact and - Miss Pandy, then shortly before on the day before this meeting, I informed the same person that I would have difficulty getting there because I could not be released from where I was and ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry, I understand that but as of Thursday last week, were you already representing the victims, all the victims that you are representing today? MR DONAN This is the Truth Commission, I think that essentially my mandate to represent them was decided this morning in a room outside. JUDGE NGOEPE And by ...[intervention] MR DONAN I represented Niclo Pedro however. JUDGE NGOEPE And by Thursday - the people that you are now representing today as well, they had not seen this report? MR DONAN JUDGE NGOEPE In all probability they saw it maybe for the first time this morning? MR DONAN I think it was handed in ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE MR COOK The problem which I have Mr Chairperson, is the fact that on Thursday they already had to have been there, whether via a legal representative or personally or otherwise they could have approached Mr Robin Brink. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you tell them, did you tell the individual people about the pre-trial conference last week Thursday? MR COOK JUDGE NGOEPE MR COOK No, that was the duty of Mr Robin Brink. JUDGE NGOEPE Do you dispute the fact that they saw this report only today? MR COOK JUDGE NGOEPE MR COOK CHAIRPERSON I understand, the difficulty really is whether the Committee decides that this witness should be called or not. I think that you might have been misled by what you understood to be an agreement between yourself and Mr Brink, that there would be no need to call this witness. However, that decision was taken without due regard to the attitude of people who are vitally affected by the contents of that report. It now seems that they be afforded an opportunity to test what is said in that report. All that it really means now, is for you to tell us how soon would it be possible for you to get hold of your witness. Maybe you would like to take instructions in that regard and find out, you may not be in a position to give me an answer now. CHAIRPERSON Are you calling any further witnesses? MR COOK No. MR BRINK Sorry, Mr Chairman may I come in on this question to ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON My question to you Mr Cook is, are you calling any other evidence at this stage? MR COOK No further evidence. CHAIRPERSON Mr Donan, are you calling witnesses? MR DONAN CHAIRPERSON Mr Papier, are you calling witnesses? MR PAPIER No, Honourable Chair, our case is closed. CHAIRPERSON Time Mr Donan? MR DONAN CHAIRPERSON as we can. MR DONAN ADV DE JAGER MR DONAN CHAIRPERSON Please call your witness. What are you full names? MR PEDRO Niclo ...[inaudible] Pedro. CHAIRPERSON Are you prepared to take the oath? NICLO PEDRO (sworn states) MR DONAN Mr Pedro, do you prefer to give your evidence in Afrikaans? MR PEDRO do that. EXAMINATION BY MR DONAN Thank you. Mr Pedro, you were arrested by the security police during August of 1987, is that correct? MR PEDRO MR DONAN And when ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON You say you were arrested in August 1987? MR PEDRO CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DONAN After you arrest you met Mr Benzien, is that correct? MR PEDRO Yes, I met him here in Cape Town. MR DONAN MR PEDRO MR DONAN Who were they? MR PEDRO But when the interrogation started Benzien and Nortje were present, they were the only other people in the room with me. When they started interrogating me the intimidation had already taken effect, this intimidation of me had already started when I was in this room and the security policemen came in and out to have a good look at me. When they were alone with me they took off all my clothes and there was a mesh wire in front of the window and they tied me up against this mesh wire, that meant that I could barely stand and they started questioning me regarding several aspects. That is where I met Benzien for the first time. MR DONAN MR PEDRO Do you want me to continue? MR DONAN Yes, please. MR PEDRO MR DONAN Can ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON JUDGE WILSON Short? CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION NICLO PEDRO (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY MR DONAN (cont) Thank you. Mr Pedro, during the course of your interrogation, did the name Ashley Kriel ever crop up? MR PEDRO MR DONAN Colonel Smith, did you ever see him during the course of your interrogation? MR PEDRO MR DONAN Now there has been evidence about a sack that was used by Mr Benzien when he interrogated detainees, did you ever see or hear of a sack while you were under interrogation? MR PEDRO MR DONAN How easily did you give information to Mr Benzien, did you offer it readily? MR PEDRO MR DONAN You were sentenced to imprisonment, were you? MR PEDRO Yes, I was. MR DONAN On Robben Eiland? MR PEDRO MR DONAN And since the time of your trial, have you ever seen the statements which you made to the lawyers at the time of your trial? MR PEDRO Since after my trial? MR DONAN Yes. MR PEDRO MR DONAN And I gave you your statement? MR PEDRO Yes, you gave me the one. MR DONAN MR PEDRO I did. MR DONAN Thank you, thank you Mr Pedro. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DONAN CHAIRPERSON Mr Papier, are there any questions you wish to illicit? MR PAPIER I have no questions, thank you Honourable Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Cook? MR COOK I have a couple of questions thank you. Mr Pedro, it seems to as if you also have a problem with your memory, is that right? MR PEDRO answer those questions. MR COOK MR PEDRO MR COOK How many years imprisonment did you get? MR PEDRO I was given 24 years of which 10 were suspended and I served 14 years effectively. MR COOK And you received indemnity, is that correct? MR PEDRO I was released. MR COOK No, indemnity, did you receive indemnity? Is that correct? MR PEDRO MR COOK You got amnesty? MR PEDRO I was released as a result of the negotiations. MR COOK So why did you apply for amnesty? MR PEDRO MR COOK Did you just get it? MR PEDRO MR COOK MR PEDRO MR COOK Who was your counsel, who was your legal representative who dealt with your amnesty application? ADV DE JAGER I think it was an indemnity ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Was there amnesty or was it indemnity Mr Cook? MR COOK Indemnity. CHAIRPERSON And was there not a general indemnity granted? MR COOK MS KHAMPEPE MR COOK Let me ask you expressly ...[intervention] MS KHAMPEPE Mr Cook, there were two processes, the first one was the Groote Schuur - in terms of the Groote Schuur Minute and the second was one in terms of the Indemnity Act of 1990 and 1992. MR COOK Yes. MS KHAMPEPE So maybe you should find out from him in terms of which process he was released. MR COOK In terms of which of these two processes did you or were you released? MR PEDRO CHAIRPERSON Just hold on, may we just clear it up. When were you released from prison? MR PEDRO I was released in April 1991. CHAIRPERSON After being in prison for how long? MR PEDRO From 1988. CHAIRPERSON 1988? MR PEDRO Yes. MS KHAMPEPE MR PEDRO Did I sign any statement? MS KHAMPEPE Yes. MR PEDRO MS KHAMPEPE In support of your release? MR PEDRO CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR COOK Why do you have a problem recalling this? MR PEDRO Why do I have a problem to remember that? MR COOK Yes. MR PEDRO As I was saying, for me that was not important whether I must sign documentation to be released or not, that was irrelevant for me. In the first place I was sent wrongly to prison. MR COOK What do you mean when you say you were sent to prison wrongfully? MR PEDRO Because the laws of that time was injustice, it was not the laws - it was inhumane laws and the things that I did in my opinion was not things that was necessary for me to go to prison. MR COOK The period that you were in the Western Cape you were part of a cell, is that correct? MR PEDRO Yes, I was part of a cell. MR COOK Who were the other members of this cell? MR PEDRO My comrades who are here today. MR COOK And who was the leader of the cell? MR PEDRO My commander was Ashley Forbes. MR COOK What was the purpose of this cell of yours? MR PEDRO The objective was to carry out the policy of our organisation. MR COOK And what did that entail? MR PEDRO Our organisations policy was to destroy apartheid. MR COOK And what means did you use in this battle? MR PEDRO I was a member of MK and the means which we used was to become involved in the armed struggle. MR COOK So you would also make use of violence? MR PEDRO MR COOK Please just answer the question. MR DONAN CHAIRPERSON MR DONAN As the Chairperson pleases. CHAIRPERSON And I think that the questions that you put to this must have some bearing on the activities of Mr Benzien and not on his activities. MR COOK MR PEDRO MR COOK But despite that, you were convicted in that trial. Am I right? MR PEDRO By the apartheid courts, yes. MR COOK Your evidence was rejected? MR PEDRO What do you mean my evidence was rejected? CHAIRPERSON MR COOK You were convicted in that court, is that correct? MR DONAN As I remember it, there was a plea of guilty tendered and it was on that basis that the guilt established. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes, please proceed. MR COOK What weapons were used by this cell in the Western Cape or what weapons were brought in? MR PEDRO None. MR COOK No weapons? MR PEDRO Not where I was involved. MR COOK MR PEDRO MR COOK Did your cell possess weapons? MR PEDRO Yes. MR COOK Who had these weapons? MR PEDRO CHAIRPERSON Please just understand Mr Cook, you asked him whether the cell possessed weapons and he said yes, what is the purpose of trying to get the identity of which individuals? What purpose does that serve? MR COOK CHAIRPERSON Well the answer is that his cell did have weapons. MR COOK Right. Mr Pedro, the next question is, what did you want to do with these weapons? MR PEDRO MR COOK So are you refusing to answer the question? MR PEDRO ADV DE JAGER Did you need the weapons to make war? MR PEDRO ADV DE JAGER What specific purpose? MR PEDRO At that stage we had certain targets, there were electrical power stations - that was a target, Government buildings, policemen ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR PEDRO Yes, that was the purpose. MR COOK Thank you Advocate de Jager. You knew Mr Ashley Kriel well, is that correct? MR PEDRO He was my friend, yes. MR COOK And at some point you lived together? MR PEDRO Correct. MR COOK The place where he was killed, 8 Albermaal Street in Hazendal, Athlone, is that where you lived together? MR PEDRO Correct. MR COOK Is it correct that Mr Ashley Kriel had a hand grenade in his possession amongst others - in the period that you lived together? MR PEDRO MR COOK MR PEDRO MR COOK Did you have a .22 pistol in your possession at that stage? MR PEDRO Yes. MR COOK Where did you get it? MR PEDRO From one of my co-accused. MR COOK Who? MR PEDRO Naziem Louw. MR COOK What did you want to do with the weapons? MR PEDRO To protect ourselves from the police. MR COOK MR PEDRO The police were searching for me. MR COOK Why? MR PEDRO MR COOK Was it armed robbery? MR PEDRO No, it was car theft. MR COOK MR PEDRO MR DONAN At this stage, what relevance that has to the torture that was used? MR COOK CHAIRPERSON MR COOK Yes, indeed. CHAIRPERSON MR COOK Is it correct that Ashley Kriel at some stage was your cell leader? MR PEDRO Pardon me? MR COOK Ashley Kriel, was he the cell leader at some stage? MR PEDRO MR COOK You made a statement which was handed in during the inquest proceedings, is that correct? MR PEDRO Yes. MR COOK ADV DE JAGER Have the pages of the inquest proceedings been indexed and if so, to which page are you referring? MR COOK MR COOK "When I met the deceased in Lansdowne on that day he was in possession of an F1 defensive hand grenade in his jacket pocket. I received training in dealing with various land mines and grenades and I identified the grenade as such". Paragraph 15: "The deceased and I often left the house in Hazendal and he was always or often armed with this hand grenade" Can you recall that? MR PEDRO MR COOK Yes, I very pertinently asked you about this defensive hand grenade, whether he carried it with him. I will request copies to be made of this Exhibit C. CHAIRPERSON MR COOK As it pleases you. MR PEDRO MR COOK MR PEDRO Yes, there were other people as well. MR COOK Were these other people there right from the start when you arrived there? In other words, was there a whole group of people there from the start? MR PEDRO Culemborg is a big building ...[intervention] MR COOK Please answer the question. MR PEDRO MR COOK "He was brought to Culemborg and he says that there the first security policeman that arrived there was Warrant Officer Benzien and Warrant Officer Nortje - when he arrived it was you and Nortje" And that contradicts your evidence now. MR PEDRO No, not at all. MR COOK You say there were already a group of people there but according to this statement, only Nortje and Benzien were there and the others arrived later. MR PEDRO MR COOK When were you made to undress, immediately or at a later stage? MR PEDRO MR COOK Who was present when you were undressed? MR PEDRO Benzien and Nortje. MR COOK Who actually took your clothes off? MR PEDRO They asked me to do it. MR COOK And is that what happened? MR PEDRO Yes.