amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1997-07-07 CAPE TOWN 1 CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54682&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/capetown/capetown_ndinisa.htm CHAIRPERSON Yes. You may proceed with the next witness. ADV LOURENS I call then Crosby Ndinisa. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Ndinisa, please stand up. Please give us your full names. MR NDINISA Crosby Kolani Ndinisa. CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA (Duly sworn in, states). MS KHAMPEPE You may sit down. You have been properly sworn in. EXAMINATION BY ADVOCATE LOURENS Mr Ndinisa, for the record, could you state how old you are. MR NDINISA I am 29 years old. I was born in 1968. ADV LOURENS Did you go to school? MR NDINISA Yes, I did. ADV LOURENS Until what standard? MR NDINISA Until standard six. ADV LOURENS Are you, have you ever worked in any job? What sort of job have you done? MR NDINISA I was working while I was still growing up. I was working for the fruit and vegetable shops. ADV LOURENS Where were you born? MR NDINISA I was born in Mbekweni. ADV LOURENS And have you lived there your whole life? MR NDINISA Yes, I lived in Mbekweni, but I also lived in Guguletu, but I was born in Mbekweni. ADV LOURENS In 1985 were you living in Mbekweni? MR NDINISA Yes, that is correct. ADV LOURENS Now, were you involved in any political organisation? MR NDINISA Yes. ADV LOURENS Could you tell the Committee which political organisation you were involved in? MR NDINISA I was a member of the Paarl Youth Congress, the PAYCO. ADV LOURENS Is that PAYCO also referred to by Mr Maxam? MR NDINISA Yes. ADV LOURENS Were you an office bearer in the, in PAYCO? Did you hold any position? MR NDINISA No, I was just a member. ADV LOURENS What was, were you a member of the United Democratic Front? MR NDINISA No, I was just working with them and supporting their ideas, but I belonged to PAYCO. ADV LOURENS Now, you have heard the first applicant, Mr Maxam's evidence about the violence and unrest in Mbekweni community. Is that correct? MR NDINISA Yes, that is correct. ADV LOURENS Do you agree with the way in which he summed up that situation? MR NDINISA Yes, I do agree with him. ADV LOURENS Now, in your own words explain to the Committee what you felt you would have to do to get out of this situation or to do something about this situation that was going on in Mbekweni at the time. MR NDINISA What I can say is that in 1985 under the State of Emergency in Mbekweni the situation was very terrible. There was conflict between AZAPO, UDF and PAYCO. UDF and PAYCO were working together. AZAPO was being helped by the SADF and SAP, the police. They were attacking UDF and PAYCO. There were a lot of people who lost their lives. They were members of UDF and PAYCO. I can mention their names. Up until seven of them died and they were attacked by AZAPO members. Others were attacked while the police were there. Others were attacked when the police were not there. This situation led to us attacking AZAPO. I took part in burning down AZAPO members' houses. We threw petrol bombs. The police were attacking. I was amongst the people who were attacking the police. We were stoning them and using petrol bombs to them. There were also guns we shot at the police and the police shot at us by rubber bullets and they dispersed teargas. Some of them Comrades had guns with them and they also shot at the police. We were under the State of Emergency in 1985. This happened everyday. It was very difficult. People were scared all the time because of this situation. ADV LOURENS Now, was it important then for you to get ammunition, firearms and ammunition? MR NDINISA Yes, it was very important, because AZAPO members were attacking people and what I can say is that in 1985 AZAPO members would come in the middle of the night together with the police in their Caspirs. They would come to where the Comrades were staying and they would stop the Caspir in front of the Comrade's home and they would go out of the Caspir and attack you as the Comrade. After that they would axe you and use all sorts of weapons to you and they would leave with their Caspir. This led to that, as I was a member of PAYCO, I decided to be in a group where we were trained to defend ourselves. As the community we were looking for weapons to defend ourselves. ADV LOURENS Now, round about April in 1985 did you make any plans, then, to get any arms and ammunition? MR NDINISA Yes, we did. If I remember very well, we would discuss this issue now and again. Up until the 15th of April when we were together with the two Comrades next to me. ADV LOURENS Just stop there please. Okay, that is what I was going to ask you. Carry on. MR NDINISA I was together with Madoda Tisana and other Comrades. There were six of us if I still remember very well. Philemon Maxam was not there at the time. We decided to go out and look for weapons. We got a report that we could find weapons in Vlaklandplaas, Vlakkeland Farm. The person who gave us this report was Noyoyo Nelson Sono, but while we were in Block D Philemon Maxam came to us and we told him about this situation. If I ... he came to look at the situation as people were being shot. He wanted to know whether there were people who were robbed and we then told him about this report by Nelson Noyoyo Sono, but if I remember well Madoda Tisana was the one reporting to him, but I was also there. As we know, as we knew that he was a leader and we could trust him in the struggle. We asked Philemon Maxam if we could have a gun with us so that we can defend ourselves when we were being attacked. He told us that he does have a gun, but he cannot give us his gun, but he will be happy if he will take part in this raid. ADV LOURENS Now, sorry can I just, so just to stop you there. The information about what was contained at Vlakkeland, did you, you said you heard that from Nelson Sono. Is that right? MR NDINISA Yes, that is right. ADV LOURENS Is that correct? MR NDINISA Yes, that is correct. ADV LOURENS Now, who was he? Was he somebody in PAYCO or the UDF or who was he? What was his position? MR NDINISA Nelson Sono, I am not sure where he was, but there are Comrades who had a membership card, PAYCO membership card. I would know that a person is a Comrade, but I would not be sure whether he was, he had a membership card. That is how I knew Nelson Sono. I was not sure. ADV LOURENS Thank you. Now, on the 15th you then got together with various others including the other two applicants and continue to tell the Committee then what happened after that. MR NDINISA Nelson Sono, as he explained this to us, he told us that he was staying next to Vlakkeland. When we were in Vlakkeland you could see Nelson Sono's home. He then reported to us that the SADF members would camp in that area. If we could go in that area we can get weapons so that we can be armed. He said that the Caspirs will be there all the time. He then said that we may get weapons in that area. We then decided to go there together with Philemon Maxam. We met in the G Block next to Madoda Tisana's home. From G Block we went to the farm where we were looking for the weapons. When we were about the gate the owner of the house, Mr Noble, was going out of his home. Philemon Maxam asked a job. He said that he does not have anything to offer. What I would like to mention about what happened that day is that Nelson Sono said to Philemon Maxam, Dakinas, as we called him, he said, Dakinas, shoot. I remember that Philemon Maxam tried to say something that we must be very careful there and Mr Noble then left. Mr Maxam did not shoot him. After he left we went into the yard of this Vlakkeland Farm. JUDGE WILSON So did you say that Nelson Sono told the first applicant to shoot the farmer? MR NDINISA Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON You were saying that you went to the house. MR NDINISA Yes, we went to the house. I do not know exactly what happened, but I spoke to the gardener. His name was Mr John Geyser. We decided that we would ask for a glass of water. I asked water from the gardener. He said that there is a lady inside the house, a domestic worker. I then followed the other Comrades. What I remember is that Madoda Tisana and Philemon Maxam were in front of me. At that time I was together with Mr John Geyser. ADV LOURENS Can you just stop there please. When you say that you were together with Mr John Geyser, does that mean that you stayed with him or he came with you? Explain to the Committee what you mean when you say you were together with Mr John Geyser? MR NDINISA What I am trying to say is that Mr John Geyser was a gardener at the time. I then spoke to him, asking for a glass of water. I did not want him to know exactly what we wanted there. He then told me that there is a lady inside the house. We can go inside and ask for water. At that time Madoda Tisana and Philemon Maxam were in front of me. Then the Comrades asked for water. Some of us then went at the back and we went to a window next to the kitchen. This woman, this lady brought a glass of water, but what I remember is that he was, she was giving out water, Madoda Tisana was outside grabbing her. This woman was screaming. I heard a gunshot at the time. Quickly I ran to Mr John Geyser. He was then asking me not to shoot him. I said, no, nobody is going to shoot you. I went to Mr Maxam saying that we must not shoot this man. I tied him with wires in the legs. After tying him I saw that the Comrades were kicking the doors and then we went inside the house. We searched the house. I was also searching the house. I saw Mr Maxam inside in the bedroom. He was searching under the bed, under the mattresses. I was also searching in the wardrobes, on top of the wardrobes and everywhere. After a short while I heard a person saying "sout". This means that there is someone coming. I looked outside through the window. I saw a car, a white combi coming towards this farm in Vlakkeland. We then ran away, all of us. At the time of this I heard again gunshots. We were running at the time. While we were outside the house I heard another gunshot. We ran away. If I remember very well there was, Madoda Tisana was handling an agent case at the time. We went to the township. That farm was not, is not far from the township. We managed to get to the township in Mbekweni. After that we found out that we all managed to run away, but Philemon Maxam was not in our group at the time. We were scared at that time, because we did not know who the people in the white combi, because there were people in that combi. They were coming towards the place in which we were. After seeing that combi we ran away. We ran to the township. I went outside the house with nothing. The agent case under, which Mr Tisana had, he said that he left it behind. What I remember is that he had a jewellery box with him with watches, earrings, a ring, money, R2 000,00. On that same day Madoda Tisana and myself together with some few of us went to Cape Town, on that very same day. We left Mbekweni to Cape Town. We went with that jewellery box to Cape Town. We bought two guns in KTC. That money, the R2 000,00, we used it as we were in Cape Town. We came back on the following day with two guns, because it was our intention to have weapons as we were staying in difficult conditions in Mbekweni and we were being attacked all the time by the AZAPO members and SAP and SADF. We wanted to form groups so that we can defend ourselves as we were living in such conditions in 1985. We came back with two guns, but what I can say is that our aim was not to kill in that place. We just wanted weapons, but we did mention this that if we were attacked we would defend ourselves, but it was not our aim to kill, but what I can say is that it happened that people died, two people died, Mr John Geyser and Mrs Orolion Annie Foster. It was not our aim. I would like to say that the death of the two victims was not planned and I did not encourage it, because we did not go there in order to kill these people, but it just happened. These guns we would use them in some days, the ones we came with from Cape Town, in KTC. After two months I was arrested. I was not arrested for this incident, but I was arrested under the State of Emergency in 1986. I stayed for one, in Victor Verster. After two months I was then charged of this case, murder and robbery. What I can say is that we then met, all of us were accused of murder and robbery, but Philemon Maxam was not found at that time. After a few months the case was dismissed, but after a while we were charged again for the same case. In court I did not say that, I would like the Commission to note this. In court we did not mention that this was politically motivated, because I was scared of my life as at the time the courts were not on our side. If you were involved in the struggle you might lose your life or you might stay for a long time in prison or you might be hanged, but I was sentenced for this incident. When Philemon Maxam was arrested we were already sentenced with Madoda Tisana. I was called in court, in the Supreme Court here in Cape Town to give evidence when Philemon Maxam was arrested. I refused to give evidence in court, because I was scared of Maxam's life. I did not want him to be sentenced. I was scared that if it was found out that we had a political motive, I was scared of what would happen. I refused to give evidence when Philemon was arrested, but we were already sentenced at the time. I was then given 18 months for refusing to give evidence in court. After a while Maxam came to me asking me to go to court and give evidence. I was taken from the prison to the court. I gave evidence in court. We were asked why we went to that farm, but what I can say is that I was sentenced for 18 months because I refused to give evidence. I was called by the prosecutor to his office. I gave my evidence to the prosecutor. I told him that the reason for this incident was that we wanted weapons in that farm. We did not go there to kill the people, the two people who died. The prosecutor then wrote down my statement. He said that he will present my statement in court. I then after that heard that Maxam was sentenced. What I would like to add to the Commission is that we were sentenced and we were apart. It has been a long time. I spent ten years in prison. I am very happy to get this opportunity to give this side of the story. I know it is very painful, but what I can say is that I did not expect this to happen after ten years in prison. I did make attempts to ask for forgiveness, because I did not like what happened, that two people would be killed, but it happened that two of them lost their lives. What I would like to add again is that I would like to ask for forgiveness that two people lost their lives. I know that this is a very painful thing especially to family members, to parents and to friends of the victims, but I know that it is very painful and I do understand their position, but I would like to emphasise to the parents and to the family members of the victims, Mrs Orolion Annie Foster and Mr John Geyser's family. That is all I have to say. Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADVOCATE LOURENS CHAIRPERSON Mr Swart. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR SWART Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ndinisa, did you know the other members of the group? MR NDINISA What group? MR SWART The group who went to the farm. MR NDINISA Yes, I knew all of them. MR SWART Were the other members of the group members of PAYCO? MR NDINISA I knew all of them, we grew up together. I knew that some of them had membership cards like myself, but there are a few that I was not sure whether they were registered members, but I knew them as Comrades, because the took part in the struggle. AZAPO people had their own area within Mbekweni. Going further down the township it is Comrades. I just took the other members as Comrades even though I did not know that they had membership cards. MR SWART Besides the jewellery and the cash do you know anything about the clothing and the video recorder that were taken? MR NDINISA I do not know anything about the video machine. I do not remember seeing anybody carrying a video machine. We were searching and we were throwing everything about. There was clothing everywhere, but I do not remember a video machine. However, I do remember, as I said, Madoda Tisana had a briefcase and a jewellery box. I do not remember anything about video machines. MR SWART And do you remember about the clothing? MR NDINISA I do not know anything about that either. MR SWART You said in your amnesty application that you thought the shootings were not justified. Do you still believe that? MR NDINISA I do not encourage their being shot, but it happened. It was not our intention to shoot them. They were victims and I do not encourage killing people that way, but it happened. MR SWART Perhaps I can just read to you from your application form, page four, it is small "b". The question there says, "Your justification for regarding such acts and missions or offenses associated with the political objective". Then your answer to that was the following, "In terms of the house breaking and theft I feel that we were under a real threat from the State and AZAPO and therefore needed to defend ourselves. However, regarding the murders there was no justification. In fact, this was not part of our plan when we raided the farmhouse". My question is do you still stand by that, that there was no justification? MR NDINISA Those people, as I said, it is not something I would encourage, to kill them. There were mere workers at the farm and we were not there to kill them either. As Philemon Maxam was shooting and he was also shooting to, so that they did not have details to give to the police about us. To my knowledge it was not our intention to kill these people. Unfortunately, they did die. MR SWART Yes, but the crux of the question I have, I keep asking you is was it necessary to shoot them, because the way I understand you say it was not necessary. I know it is unfortunate and I know you did not intend to do it, but was it necessary that it should be done? MR NDINISA I am trying to explain the situation at the time. CHAIRPERSON He says that there was no justification. MR SWART In his application, but now, he does not want to say so now Judge. That is the point I am trying to make. MR NDINISA What I am saying is that I am not, I would not encourage people being shot, but it happened. MR SWART Yes, you were there at the time. The question is would you have shot them if you had the weapon in your hand? Was it necessary to shoot the people. ADVOCATE LOURENS OBJECTS Mr Chairman, I object to this question. Sorry. CHAIRPERSON He says he would not encourage others to do it. MR SWART Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SWART I will accept that as the ... CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SWART ... answer Judge. Thank you. When you got together with the other members of the group afterwards did you discuss all the items which had been removed from the house? MR NDINISA Yes, we did meet. We talked about these articles. If I remember well, Madoda Tisana was the one with most of the information about these things. He had left the briefcase behind as he was running. He showed us the jewellery and the money and the same day we went to KTC in Cape Town. We exchanged the jewellery box for two guns and we came back the next day. These are the things that I remember. MR SWART And what became of the money. JUDGE WILSON Sorry. MR SWART I thought you used the money to buy the weapons with. What became of the R2 000,00 cash? ADVOCATE LOURENS OBJECTS Mr Chairman, if I might just intervene. His evidence was that the jewellery was, the jewellery was used to swap or trade for the weapons earlier on. CHAIRPERSON There seems to be some doubt about that. Let him clear it up. MR SWART Could you explain with what you bought the weapons? MR NDINISA We bought the, we exchanged the jewellery for the guns. We would use the money in our travelling, buying food, paying for transport. However, we exchanged the jewellery for the guns. JUDGE WILSON Do you know how much the guns cost? MR NDINISA I would not know, but the gentleman at KTC who sold these guns to us, he said he would give the guns to us if we would give him the jewellery. We did not talk about the money or he did not stipulate a price. It was just such an exchange. MS KHAMPEPE Sorry Mr Ndinisa, what is the meaning of KTC or what does that abbreviation stand for? MR NDINISA It is a squatter camp in Cape Town, not far from New Crossroads. So, it is not far from Guguletu. You get a lot of Comrades from there. It is a squatter camp. MS KHAMPEPE And how far is KTC from Mbekweni? MR NDINISA It is quite far. We would use a train to travel from Mbekweni to KTC. You travel for a hour, ten minutes in a train, you would get off at Bellville and other stations from this station, the last station you would take a taxi, for example, to take you to the township. You would take a hour, about a hour. MR SWART Was the R2 000,00 divided up amongst you or did one person administer it? MR NDINISA We did not divide this amongst ourselves. It is Madoda who would, who had the money. We would discuss buying the food amongst ourselves, but it is Madoda who kept it, but we were all using it. We did not divide it amongst ourselves. MR SWART Is it so that the gardener was being tied up at any stage? JUDGE WILSON He said he tied him up with wire. MR SWART Sorry, is your answer yes to that? MR NDINISA Yes. MR SWART Could he run the way he was tied up or was he lying? MR NDINISA He was lying down. I tied him up around the legs. He could not run. MR SWART Did you see when he was shot? MR NDINISA No, I was not sure whether he was shot as well, because at that time when he got shot we were already running off. MR SWART When you last saw him was he tied up and lying down? MR NDINISA Yes. It was me who tied him up. Even when we were running off he was lying on the ground. He was still lying there. MR SWART Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWART MS KHAMPEPE Sorry. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK I want you to tell me, have you ever been from the Paarl area, from your township to KTC camp before this happened, before that particular incident? MR NDINISA Yes. MR BRINK What was the, what, do you remember what the train fare was and the taxi fare? More or less. MR NDINISA We would use about R4,50. MR BRINK How many of you went to KTC after this incident? MR NDINISA Four. MR BRINK Four of you. And how long did you stay in the Cape Town area? MR NDINISA We spent the night and came back the next day. MR BRINK Did you spend the night with Comrades in KTC camp? MR NDINISA Yes. MR BRINK And you would have only had to buy, possibly, an evening meal and a morning meal. Would that be correct? MR NDINISA Yes, we got there to KTC at the squatter camp to other Comrades. We could buy groceries like millie meal, paraffin, sugar for our Comrades so that they also could have food. We bought some groceries at the squatter camp where we were staying. MR BRINK But even after having bought those groceries there must have been a considerable portion of the R2 000,00 remaining. MR NDINISA We used that money a lot. Especially with food and transport as Comrades. Then the next day there was some money left where we would buy some food. We could not be at home in the evenings or at night, because that was when we would meet as Comrades. You would not stay at home during those times especially as Comrades. We would patrol the area. We used this money. MR BRINK So the money, all the money was used over a period of time to buy food and pay for transport where necessary. Is that your evidence? MR NDINISA Yes. MR BRINK Now your intention when you went as a group to the farmhouse was merely to steal weaponry or ammunition if available. Is that not the case? MR NDINISA Yes. MR BRINK Were you a disciplined group? MR NDINISA Yes, we were disciplined. However, we had to be brave, because of the circumstances. We had to act strongly. MR BRINK But there was no intention of going to this farmhouse to steal clothing, was there, or jewellery or money? MR NDINISA No, there was no intention, but when we got there we realised that we could use certain things to get weapons. It is not that we wanted to use these things for other reasons. We needed weapons no matter what. MR BRINK In regard to the charge relating to contempt of court, were you sentenced for that separately or you must have been sentenced to that separately from the sentencing you received in respect of the housebreaking and the murders. MR NDINISA Could you please ask the question again. MR BRINK Yes, possibly it is not necessary to put it. I think it speaks for itself. You were convicted of contempt of court while you were in prison serving your present sentence. Is that the situation? JUDGE WILSON I do not think he is so sure about contempt of court. I think let me explain. You were convicted for not giving evidence while you were in prison serving your sentence, were you not? MR BRINK He refers to contempt of court in paragraph, on page two of his application. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BRINK That is why I raised or mentioned this contempt of court. He specifically applies for it. CHAIRPERSON What is the point you are trying to make. MR BRINK No, just to, to, just to make sure that that is what we understand, it was in respect of that which may well become a political objective. Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS MR BRINK JUDGE WILSON One point I would like to clear up with you and that is what I read from your application for amnesty earlier. You know the form you filled in? You know the form? MR NDINISA Yes, I know the form you are talking about. JUDGE WILSON Now there you say dealing first with the maid in the house, "She was shot when she would not stop screaming". You then go on to say, "I ran into the garden and was about to tie up the gardener, but after arguing with Philemon Maxam against shooting the gardener, Mr Maxam, who had shot the maid, shot the gardener anyway". Now that is what you have written down in your form. Is it true? MR NDINISA Let me explain. When Philemon Maxam, after he had shot the lady, the gardener was begging not to be shot. I said that he must not be shot. I did not argue with Philemon Maxam. He did not shoot him at the time anyway. I had, I tied him up and the door was already opened. JUDGE WILSON Then why did you say that you argued with him? It is your application. Did you write it out? MR NDINISA Application form? JUDGE WILSON Yes. CHAIRPERSON Let him have a copy of this application form for, let him see it please. Can one be made available to him? ADV LOURENS Mr Chairman, if I might just perhaps elucidate the Committee. I am informed by Mr Rothfuchs, who was at Lawyers for Human Rights at the time, that this, Ndinisa's statement was translated from Afrikaans, which he speaks more easily, well from the Xhosa into or into Afrikaans and then, Ndinisa spoke Afrikaans and then translated into English on the form here. CHAIRPERSON I see. ADV LOURENS But he is obviously not an Afrikaans speaker. CHAIRPERSON Yes. This is not a full ... ADV LOURENS No, this is not his, that is not his handwriting. It is Mr Rothfuch's handwriting in fact. CHAIRPERSON So some of it has been lost. Yes. Tell him that ... JUDGE WILSON He is reading it at the moment. Let him finish reading it. Are you reading your application? MS KHAMPEPE Mr Ndinisa, I think from where I am seated you seem to be reading at a wrong place. Really, you are reading at a wrong place. From where I am seated I can see that you do not, you are on the, not on the same page ... CHAIRPERSON Look at question ... MS KHAMPEPE ... as a member of my Committee. CHAIRPERSON ... look at paragraph nine "a", little "a" in brackets and roman numeral four in brackets which continues on the next page. MS KHAMPEPE Do you see where page 16 is? JUDGE WILSON Page three of the application form. He is reading it now. MR NDINISA I understand what is written there. However, perhaps I did not articulate things well, but what I was trying to say, the Commission must be clear that Philemon Maxam, I was, I said to him that we should not shoot this man. I did not argue with him. I just said that he must shoot him. I did not argue with Philemon. It was written this way. However, what I was trying to say is I just told him not to shoot. JUDGE WILSON See I asked you this, because there is another statement by you, page 21, which differs slightly. It would seem at first site to be almost a copy, but the paragraph there, it is the second to last paragraph and says, "The woman began screaming and Mr Maxam then shot her. I ran into the garden and was about to tie up the gardener when Mr Maxam arrived. Although the gardener pleaded for his life and I argued against shooting the gardener, Mr Maxam did so anyway". MR NDINISA In this sense, Sir, that I said to him we must not shoot him. At that time when I said he must not shoot him, he did not shoot him. Even though I said before that we must not shoot him, he later shot him. In summary, where I was taken from detention from Victor Verster, being taken by investigators from Paarl, they said that I was being charged of two murder cases. I realised then that this man had been shot at the end. However, at that point when I said he must not be shot, he was not shot, but got shot at a later stage. This is in summary. I said this looking back in that respect. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Ndinisa, when you spoke to the gardener to ask for a glass of water how far was Mr Maxam from you and the gardener? MR NDINISA He was quite far, but not that far. Maybe from where we are sitting, I was talking to the gardener and they were standing by the wall. That is how far the distance is. They were talking to the domestic worker. I was with the gardener. The window was from where I am sitting to the wall. That is the distance. MS KHAMPEPE Five paces. CHAIRPERSON How much? MS KHAMPEPE Five paces from here to the ... CHAIRPERSON To that wall. JUDGE WILSON That wall? CHAIRPERSON Yes. JUDGE WILSON Which wall, that one? CHAIRPERSON The last wall. MS KHAMPEPE The last one, the last one. It is the last one. CHAIRPERSON It is more than ten paces. JUDGE WILSON It is about a cricket pitch, 20 paces. CHAIRPERSON Yes. JUDGE WILSON I think it is about the length of a cricket pitch, call it 20 paces. CHAIRPERSON You wish to re-examine this witness? ADV LOURENS No, I do not Mr Chairman. I have no further questions. WITNESS EXCUSED