amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1997-05-19 CAPE TOWN 1 PATRICK NDLUMBINI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54683&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/capetown/capetown_ndlumbin.htm CHAIRPERSON This is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee. The present members of the Committee are Judge Mall as Chairman, Judge Wilson on my left and Ms Khampepe on my right. The leader of evidence is Mr Robin Brink and the attorney appearing for the applicant is Mr Williams. Are we ready to proceed? JUDGE WILSON Before we do, can you turn that light slightly up or slightly sideways. MR BRINK Mr Chairperson and members of the Committee, this is the application of Patrick Ndlumbini for amnesty. The victims concerned were Ndimphiwe Nthekiso and Eric Xegetwane. Mr Nthekiso was served with a form 2 notice, by registered post at his last known address which was care of the SAPS, Onluste-eenheid 10, Maitland. That was the address given to me by the prosecutor of the Wynberg Magistrate's Court - Regional Court, rather. Mr Xegetwane, we had great difficulty in tracing the man, but I understand from my colleague that in fact he saw him at court recently and advised him that the matter was proceeding, but Mr Xegetwane not only indicated he was not the slightest bit interested in this application or indeed, with the continuing proceedings in court. The position relating to the applicants in this matter, is that he has, I understand, pleaded guilty to the charges and has been convicted very recently. But he is to return to court for sentencing on or about the 16th of July this year. I do not know whether Mr Nthekiso is present. May I just ascertain? CHAIRPERSON Please do. Mr Williams, are you ready to proceed? MR WILLIAMS Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, before I proceed with leading the applicant, I just want to give a short background, your Worship - Mr Chairman, with regard to this matter. The trial of - this case has been partly heard. Initially the applicant pleaded not guilty in respect of both charges relating to both victims. The reason for that was that the only evidence that the State had was a confession which was allegedly extracted from the applicant under duress. It is on that basis, he contested the admissibility of the confession. The matter has been protracted and continued over a lengthy period and at the last court hearing, the applicant pleaded guilty in respect of the one matter, and that is the one relating to the Ndimphiwe Nthekiso. The reason being that the other victim, Mr Eric Xegetwane indicated that he is not interested in the court proceedings. So the case had been postponed for sentencing to the 16th of July. Mr Chairman, I will not proceed with leading the further applicant. CHAIRPERSON Just stand. MS KHAMPEPE Are you prepared to take an oath? PATRICK NDLUMBINI (Duly sworn, states). EXAMINATION BY MR WILLIAMS Mr Ndlumbini, are you going to give your evidence in English or in Xhosa? MR NDLUMBINI I think I am asking for the Xhosa. I would prefer Xhosa, I would use the Xhosa language, if it is necessary. MR WILLIAMS Mr Ndlumbini, are you a member of any political organisation? MR NDLUMBINI I am a member of the African National Congress, MK. MR WILLIAMS When did you join this organisation? MR NDLUMBINI I joined the organisation in 1985, in the African National Congress. I went for training inside the country underground and then I left in 1988, early 1988. I crossed the borders. I went to Zambia. From Zambia I went to Angola, I was training there. MR WILLIAMS Can you tell the Committee what is the reason why you joined the ANC? MR NDLUMBINI It is because of the oppression here in South Africa, that was one of the reasons that made me, and some of my comrades were killed. They were killed, that was in the Guguletu 7. They were killed under the regime of apartheid. I was forced to go there. MR WILLIAMS So is it correct that you saw the ANC as a vehicle for effecting change in South Africa? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, I have seen that ANC is only the organisation that will bring the changes here in South Africa, and I take my decision to go and join the African National Congress. MR WILLIAMS You mention that you received military training whilst you were outside the country. Is that correct? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, after I joined the African National Congress, I received - I have received military training here inside the country, and then I have fulfilled the missions. I was ordered to attack certain places and then after that, yes, and then I moved. When after that I moved out of the country. MR WILLIAMS Mr Ndlumbini, did you receive military training whilst you were outside the country? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, I received military, my basic training was in Angola and then also I finished my training in Tanzania. MR WILLIAMS When did you return to South Africa? MR NDLUMBINI I returned to South Africa in 1991, the time the exiles were coming back home. MR WILLIAMS Now after you returned back to South Africa, what work did you do, where did you work? MR NDLUMBINI At that time I started to be assistant guard of Comrade Chris Hani. So we were guarding Chris Hani, the time he was visiting Cape Town. MR WILLIAMS So were you based in Cape Town? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, I was here in Cape Town. MR WILLIAMS And can you give the Board an indication what happened whilst you were guarding Chris Hani? MR NDLUMBINI Well, the time I was guarding Chris Hani we were attending the meetings in Crossroads and Khayelitsha and in Hermanus, where Comrade Chris Hani was going to brief the people about the development. And after that we were on the way to Stellenbosch. So it is where Comrade Chris Hani explained to us that there are - we are in the car, the Mercedes-Benz and three comrades inside. MR WILLIAMS Yes, you can continue. Continue? MR NDLUMBINI So I was at the back with Comrade Chris and Comrade Xhoxho who passed away. Xhoxho, he was shot dead. So we were, it was me and him and the driver and Comrade Chris, and Comrade Chris is telling us that the people are complaining and the MKs here inside the country, but there are attacks that the people are complaining with, that at night there are attacks - he tell us about the death squad and also the detectives and the taxi wars and the gangsters and all these things. So he explained to us that we must take initiatives because we are the soldiers, we are here, and now the people, they are looking at us and as they know that we are inside the country. So we was waiting for him to tell us something but so he tell us that no, you must take initiative and you must ask the civic organisation, so that they can discipline people. So those disciplined people who can ask from civics so that we can train them, so that these people can defend the people from these attacks of which, at that time in 1991, it was happening in our townships, you see. MR WILLIAMS You referred now to taxi wars and gangsters. Who were they actually attacking? MR NDLUMBINI In the question of taxi war, there were a lot of fighting in New Crossroads, also in Guguletu, also all around. JUDGE WILSON Were these people disorganising the life of the community, by the violence they were bringing? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, because what was happening, the innocent people were killed, you see and the people who were not involved in this taxi wars. MR WILLIAMS And is it correct that Chris Hani essentially told you that you must start protecting these people, the community? JUDGE WILSON I don't understand that to be from his application. What Mr Hani told you, wasn't it, that you must form self-defence units in the community. MR NDLUMBINI Yes. JUDGE WILSON This was a community effort, that you should get members of the civic community to form self-defence units and you must train them. MR NDLUMBINI Yes. Yes. Yes, yes. JUDGE WILSON This is the submission made by the ANC in their latest submission last week, when they said that, explained that civic defence units were established in communities under attack as a joint protect between the ANC and the community concerned, and that the legitimacy of the self-defence structures were recognised in terms of the National Peace Accord. And as I understand it, that this is what this applicant was asked to do. That is so, is it not? MR WILLIAMS That's correct, Judge Wilson. Now can you tell the Committee, did you act as a result of what Mr Hani told you? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, we started to ask the people because we had seen the people patrolling and at night, but patrolling, they are not sleeping, especially in the - the people were old that were patrolling. So we tell them that okay, we are going to assist them. We joined them. We inform the civic and then it is where we get certain comrades from the - to patrol the whole night. MR WILLIAMS Mr Ndlumbini, can we come to the specifics of this application before the Committee. Is it correct that on the 13th of October 1991, yourself and some comrades were involved in some activity, more particularly an attack? MR NDLUMBINI We were involved in the attack of the police van. Our aim was to disarm the police so that we can arm our self-defence units. MR WILLIAMS Now in the process of attacking the police, did you foresee the possibility that policemen could be injured or attacked or killed? MR NDLUMBINI Whereas it was not our aim to kill someone in that van, our aim was only to capture the weapons. MR WILLIAMS But did you foresee the possibility that policemen could be killed or injured whilst you tried to extract their weapons? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, we have seen that they could be only injured or dead in that instant, whereas it was not our aim to kill somebody. MR WILLIAMS If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you did foresee the possibility. Did you have any problems that if policemen were injured or attacked or killed? MR NDLUMBINI Well, on the following day when I see that the van didn't stop, when we are ambushing it, I buy the paper and see that there are - they said they are slightly injured. CHAIRPERSON Just tell us what happened on that night before you talk about what happened in the paper the next day. What happened on the night after you attacked the van. MR NDLUMBINI Well, I was - one was carrying the R4 rifle. I started to shoot at the van and my aim was to stop the van. And the van didn't stop, it run away. And then it is where my colleagues started to shoot at the van. I was already - I was already shot at the van nine shots, with the R4 rifle, yes. CHAIRPERSON And what happened that night after that? MR NDLUMBINI When we see that the van didn't stop, we went to go and put our bonds and patrol the areas. JUDGE WILSON Did the van stop? MR NDLUMBINI The van didn't stop, it just ran through. MR WILLIAMS Mr Ndlumbini, before you continue, can I ask you if you are not going to speak in Xhosa, that you take off the head-phones. MR NDLUMBINI Yes. JUDGE WILSON You have told us you fired nine shots with an R4 rifle. Were your companions armed? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, they were armed. JUDGE WILSON What with? MR NDLUMBINI They were armed with a shot-gun and hand-guns. JUDGE WILSON Four of them, three of them were armed, were they? MR NDLUMBINI They were armed, yes. JUDGE WILSON And did they fire? MR NDLUMBINI I'm sorry? JUDGE WILSON Did they fire shots? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, they, I think they fired shots within that moment. MR WILLIAMS What happened after that? The night when you attacked the police vehicle, were you at that stage aware whether anyone was injured or killed? MR NDLUMBINI On that night we were not aware that anyone was killed until we buy the paper. I buy the paper the following day and find that there was slightly injured, some police were injured. MR WILLIAMS And you accept that the person that was injured is Mr Ndimphiwe Nthekiso, a policeman? MR NDLUMBINI Well, I was told at court that his name, but I didn't know who was in the van that time, because we were waiting for any vehicle of the patrolling, either the soldiers or the police. We were just waiting for the situation. MR WILLIAMS This person, Mr Ndimphiwe Nthekiso, did you know him personally? MR NDLUMBINI No, I don't know. MR WILLIAMS Was the attack directed at him in his personal capacity or at police in general? MR NDLUMBINI I will say on police in general, because you can't know at night who is in the van on that time, on that "dinges". MR WILLIAMS Mr Ndlumbini, I will now go to the second incident in respect of which you are seeking amnesty and that is the attack relating to Mr Eric Xegetwane. MR NDLUMBINI Yes. MR WILLIAMS Can you just tell the Committee how it came about that you decided to attack his house? MR NDLUMBINI Well, after we - I don't still remember. I think it was after the week, you see, we attack this police van and then it happened that we attend our youth meeting now, because I am also a member of the New Crossroads youth organisation. I am a member of the branch there, the ANC branch. So when we were attending, when we were in the meeting, well, some comrades call me that comrade was close to me, that time Chris Hani was briefing me, with him, about this action we must take, it was Comrade Xhoxho. So he call me and I explain about this house of Xegetwane. I was already hear that there is a person who is Xegetwane who is involved in this perpetrating of taxi wars and all this things, you see. He was one of the top people. So he explained to me that the unit is taken a decision that today we must alarm Xegetwane that he must move out of New Crossroads. Well, how we must attack the house so that they can, our aim was to shoo them, that they must move, because they are not needed in the community. That is how we went there, ourselves and attack the house of Mr Xegetwane. MR WILLIAMS Is it correct that this attack took place on the 27th of October 1991? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, if I still remember, I can't remember all the dates of this. MS KHAMPEPE Ms Ndlumbini, when you say that Comrade Xhoxho advised you that the unit had taken a decision, to attack Mr Xegetwane in order to scare him to leave his house, what unit are you referring to? MR NDLUMBINI What? MS KHAMPEPE In your evidence you say that Comrade Xhoxho told you that a unit had taken a decision to attack the house of Xegetwane in order to scare him out of his house. MR NDLUMBINI Yes. MS KHAMPEPE What unit is this that you are referring to? MR NDLUMBINI What ...? MS KHAMPEPE The unit. MR NDLUMBINI The unit? Oh. MS KHAMPEPE I heard you speaking of a unit. MR NDLUMBINI Oh, I am talking about the people who are working with them, you see. MS KHAMPEPE Is this a self-defence unit? MR NDLUMBINI Yes. MS KHAMPEPE You are referring to the ANC Youth League? MR NDLUMBINI No, we are just in the meeting there, in the ANC Youth League, but now we are talking about my unit is also the members of the Youth League, you see. MS KHAMPEPE So Comrade Xhoxho was one of the members of your unit? MR NDLUMBINI Yes. MS KHAMPEPE And this decision had been taken in your absence? MR NDLUMBINI Yes. MS KHAMPEPE By your unit? MR NDLUMBINI Yes. MS KHAMPEPE Were you the leader of the unit? MR NDLUMBINI No, I was not the leader of the unit. The leader of the unit was Comrade Xhoxho. MS KHAMPEPE Thank you. MR WILLIAMS How many people were part of this attack on Mr Xegetwane's house? MR NDLUMBINI We were the group of people, if I still remember we were six or more than six, eight, if I remember right. MR WILLIAMS Can you recall how many of these people were armed? MR NDLUMBINI No, there were only two people armed on that time. MR WILLIAMS Were you armed? MR NDLUMBINI I was armed with a hand-gun and one of my comrades was armed with an R4, the same R4 rifle. MR WILLIAMS And did you shoot at Mr Xegetwane's house? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, I shot. MR WILLIAMS Do you know whether anyone was injured or killed in this attack? MR NDLUMBINI Well, I didn't see nothing, but our aim was not to kill somebody in the house. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Ndlumbini, when you shot at Mr Xegetwane's house, did you not foresee the possibility that other persons, completely unconnected with his activities, could be injured, through your own attack? MR NDLUMBINI As it was at the night, all the people were sleeping and we were shooting at front, we will see that maybe some people can be injured, but it was really not our aim. On cross-fire it was going to happen like that, but it was not our aim to shoot at the innocent people. MS KHAMPEPE On which part of the house then did you direct your shooting? MR NDLUMBINI We direct our shooting on the front of the house, the wall. JUDGE WILSON What sort of house was it? MR NDLUMBINI It was the house there with the two windows and the front, and the gate and a sort of garage and store, next-door something there, I think they are selling chickens or what. MR WILLIAMS Was it a brick house? MR NDLUMBINI It is the corner house but no, it is made with the zincs, they make the house with the shacks, it is like a garage with shacks. MR WILLIAMS Was that corrugated iron? MR NDLUMBINI Yes. JUDGE WILSON So R4 bullets would go straight through. Is that not so? You had shot R4 rifles, you have done military training. You knew it would go straight through a corrugated iron house, wouldn't it? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, we were, we knew that the R4 will penetrate there. MR WILLIAMS Did you foresee the possibility that Mr Xegetwane might be injured or killed in this attack? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, we foresee that he could be injured, but it was not our aim to injure any person, but to alarm ... (intervention). MR WILLIAMS You nonetheless, foresaw the possibility that people could be injured or be killed. MS KHAMPEPE Did you know, Mr Ndlumbini, who was staying with Mr Xegetwane at that time? MR NDLUMBINI I'm sorry? MS KHAMPEPE Did you know who was staying with Mr Xegetwane at the time in the house? MR NDLUMBINI Well, I didn't know who stayed in the house at that time. I didn't know even the house, you see, I was just seeing the house. MS KHAMPEPE Who pointed the house to you, was that Comrade Xhoxho? MR NDLUMBINI Well, as we were moving, you see, I was already knew the house is the house of the one of the perpetrators of this taxi war, you see. MS KHAMPEPE Did you on your own make any attempt to find out if there were any other persons inside of the house at the time when your shots were directed at this shanty house? MR NDLUMBINI No, I didn't knew that there is a person inside, you see. MR WILLIAMS Mr Ndlumbini, in what respect did you say that this attack on Mr Xegetwane's house can be considered a political motive? MR NDLUMBINI As me, I was instructed by Comrade Chris Hani to ask and protect the people, you see. I have seen that this taxi wars as they are killing the people or endanger the people, that this is our way to protect the people from this taxi war and also gangsters, as the previous government formed the sort of structures that they called Thunder Storm and Gold Storm and Thunder Storm and all these things, Springbok. So that to delay the negotiation process. So I see that this we were the counter of those activities from the Death Squad and all these things. We were countering that because really the people, they were in danger on that time. MR WILLIAMS mr Ndlumbini, can you just tell me what are you doing now, where do you work now, what do you do with your life? MR NDLUMBINI Now I am working, I am in the South African National Defence Force. I am working as a storeman, OS. MR WILLIAMS Are you a member of the National Defence Force? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, I am a soldier in the South African National Defence Force. MR WILLIAMS And then very lastly, do I understand you correct that the attack on the police was motivated by the fact that you wanted to obtain their firearms in order to arm the self-defence units? Is that correct? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, is that correct. MR WILLIAMS And the attack on Mr Xegetwane's house was sort of to send him a signal that he is not wanted in the community, because he was seen as being instrumental in the taxi war. Is that correct? MR NDLUMBINI Yes. MR WILLIAMS I have got no further questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink, are there any questions? MR BRINK Thank you, Mr Chairman. I understand before putting questions, I understand that one of the victims, that is Mr Xegetwane has in fact arrived and I will after I have put questions, if I could have a short break just to consult with him about one or two matters. In fact, it may be convenient if that indulgence is granted me now, Mr Chairman, so I can talk to him. CHAIRPERSON Five minutes? MR BRINK Yes, I don't think I need more than five minutes. CHAIRPERSON We will take a short adjournment. ON RESUMPTION PATRICK NDLUMBINI (Still under oath). CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK Thank you, Mr Chairman, for that. I won't keep you long, Mr Ndlumbini, but I just want to ask you one or two questions relating to the allegations made in your affidavit, which was annexed to your application. I am referring, Mr Chairman, members of the Committee to page 9 of the bundle, towards the bottom. In fact, it is the last paragraph, but further down. You said "In the townships there was a taxi war raging and we suspected that the police were instigating the violence in order to sabotage negotiations progress, which were underway at that stage between the ANC and the NP-led government." Now what gave rise to the suspicion that the police were instigating the violence, which undoubtedly occurred, why do you say the police were assisting these people? MR NDLUMBINI One day in 1991, I don't remember the date of that line, but I was walking in New Crossroads, near to the house of Comrade Roy Sondo. There was one guy who was guarding Comrade Roy. So I meet him on the corner. He said no, there is a combi coming. I said what combi? He said there is a combi, you will see, because he was hiding himself and then I was waiting for this combi, because at that time I wanted to see what is happening really. But on that van there was a driver, a taxi driver was driving the combi, but there was no one in the combi when I look at the combi. But the combi is passing me, there are two people who were lying on their backs in the car. There are two policemen in the van. So I mean, I was telling the guy now that there are two policemen in the van, he must be careful because you said it is a taxi, I mean, taxi war, but now there are two people, two policemen in the - that's where I see the police were involved in this ... MR BRINK Was it a generally held perception amongst your people that the police were instigating this violence? Did everyone believe that or was it just you? MR NDLUMBINI Well, I think only people there, I mean not all. Some people, they knew that, especially my organisation knew that the police are very involved, and other people, they are also complaining that these police are there, who are busy ... (intervention). MR BRINK Now you told the Committee that your intention was to disarm the police. And obviously, to disarm the police you would have to use force. MR NDLUMBINI Yes. MR BRINK I didn't hear you? MR NDLUMBINI Use force. MR BRINK Yes. In order to disarm the police, to take their weapons from them, you and your comrades would have to use force to do that, not so? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, we have got to use. MR BRINK Yes, and that, the force which you used, could easily have given rise to the policeman's death. Do you understand me? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, I understand you. MR BRINK And you agree with me? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, I agree with you. MR BRINK Now as I indicated to the Committee, Mr Xegetwane is here and he has told me that he does not oppose your application for amnesty but he has asked me to ask you a few questions. I want to show you a photograph which Mr Chairman, I have marked Exhibit A. Unfortunately it is only one, it was given to me by the victim concerned. Just give that to the applicant, please. Just have a look at that photograph, Exhibit A. That photograph depicts, I am told, the remains of Mr Xegetwane's house. Is that correct? MR NDLUMBINI Yes. MR BRINK I think you must answer a little more loudly, it must be on record. Is that the remains of his house? MR NDLUMBINI I don't know about this picture, but I see it is a front of the house of Mr Xegetwane. MR BRINK Could you please speak up? Could you please speak up? MR NDLUMBINI I see that is the front of Mr Xegetwane. But maybe this happened after this attack. MR BRINK Well, did you have anything to do yourself, with the destruction of his house? MR NDLUMBINI Destruction of his house? MR BRINK Did you cause that damage? MR NDLUMBINI This damage? No. MR BRINK You didn't. JUDGE WILSON Could we have a look at the picture before you continue your cross-examination, so we can understand what sort of damage you are talking about? MR BRINK Very well, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Mr Chairman. Just give the photograph for a moment. To go back then, Mr Ndlumbini, did you have anything to do with the destruction of Mr Xegetwane's house? MR NDLUMBINI No, I think what I was involved in, is only that attack. I don't know about this. MR BRINK Did you leave the house immediately after you had shot at it? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, we leave the house immediately. MR BRINK Did you have anything to do with the theft of any of his cattle? MR NDLUMBINI No, no, I mean, I mean, me ... MR BRINK You, personally, yes. MR NDLUMBINI I mean, our organisation, we don't take other things, I mean, it is undisciplined, you see. That's all I can say. MR BRINK Do you know anything about his cattle having been stolen? MR NDLUMBINI I think I was already in prison that time, I was in prison when it happened. So I don't know. MR BRINK But in any event you haven't been charged with theft of cattle. MR NDLUMBINI I'm sorry? MR BRINK You haven't been charged with the theft of cattle. MR NDLUMBINI No, no. MR BRINK Stock theft. MR NDLUMBINI No. MR BRINK I have one other questions I must put to you. Are you aware that as a result of the noise caused by the shooting that night, Mr Xegetwane's daughter has been rendered death, she can't hear? MR NDLUMBINI MR BRINK Well, one last question. You said it was not your aim to injure or kill anyone. MR NDLUMBINI Yes. MR BRINK But when Judge Wilson questioned you earlier, you agreed that the firearms which had been used, could have had the effect of causing serious damage to the inhabitants of the house. JUDGE WILSON I have certain reservations now, having read the statement again. I mean, what sort of R4 was it, that this man had? I thought you said an R4 rifle? MR BRINK The applicant on page 10 ... JUDGE WILSON (Indistinct - microphone not switched on). CHAIRPERSON He said in his evidence that his companion had a rifle. JUDGE WILSON An R4, I thought he said an R4 rifle. MR BRINK Yes, that also appears, Mr Chairman, on page 10 of the papers, about halfway down the first paragraph "Four of us were armed and one person unarmed. I was armed with an R4 rifle." JUDGE WILSON Yes, that is on another (indistinct). What weapons did your comrades have when you attacked Mr Xegetwane's house? Was it a ,32 revolver? MR NDLUMBINI Yes. JUDGE WILSON An R4 rifle? MR NDLUMBINI Yes. JUDGE WILSON And a shot-gun. MR NDLUMBINI No, the hand-gun, not shot-gun. JUDGE WILSON So there was no shot-gun? MR NDLUMBINI No. JUDGE WILSON It was an R4 rifle. MR NDLUMBINI And a hand-gun. JUDGE WILSON Yes. An R4 is, my recollection, is a rifle, that is not a shot-gun, is it? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, it is a rifle. JUDGE WILSON Thank you. MR BRINK I have no further questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLIAMS If I can just clear one point. On the attack of Mr Xegetwane's house, how many people were armed? MR NDLUMBINI If I still remember, it was the R4 and the other people they were armed, but the only guns we shot ourselves is two guns. MR WILLIAMS Ja, and that is? MR NDLUMBINI ,32 and R4. MR WILLIAMS And is it correct that you had the ,32 hand-gun? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, ,32 hand-gun, yes. MR WILLIAMS Someone else had the R4. MR NDLUMBINI Yes, somebody else. MR WILLIAMS Is it an R4 shot-gun? MR NDLUMBINI Yes. MR WILLIAMS Thank you, Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON You have just said it was an R4 rifle. Will you please be careful about your evidence. What was it? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, it is a R4 and a ,32 hand-gun, yes. JUDGE WILSON And what was the R4? CHAIRPERSON What is the R4, is it a rifle or is it a shot-gun? MR NDLUMBINI The R4 is the rifle gun. MR WILLIAMS That is all, sir. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS MS KHAMPEPE Mr Ndlumbini, having had sight of the photograph that was shown by Mr Robin Brink, to your knowledge, was the house of Mr Xegetwane still standing when you left the scene, after you had attacked it? MR NDLUMBINI Everything was standing, even here, there was a bungalows, I think he also sell the bungalows. But there were the bungalows here and all, everything was all right that time. I am surprised to see this. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much. JUDGE WILSON I'm sorry, I want to ask one last question. Do you know that it was the policy of the ANC at this time to try to bring peace to the community by establishing self-defence units with members of the community? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, as I - I am from Tanzania, so Comrade Hani he arrived there in Tanzania to brief us about this, that they are going to form - the organisation will form the self-defence unit because the people are going inside the country, and then in South Africa, they don't allow us to come with our equipment. So they are going to form the self-defence units. So I was aware that the ANC is going to form this self-defence units. JUDGE WILSON And they were to be in the communities? MR NDLUMBINI Yes, they would be in the communities, yes. MS KHAMPEPE It was, Mr Ndlumbini, part of politicising the masses with a view of intensifying the people's war, which the ANC was waging then. MR NDLUMBINI Yes, it was. CHAIRPERSON Very well, thank you very much. You may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED MR WILLIAMS Judge Wilson, the applicant does not intend calling any witnesses on his behalf. CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink, are you proposing to call any witnesses? MR BRINK I think as Mr Xegetwane is here, and I think he would like to say something, if he could be sworn in. CHAIRPERSON Mr Xegetwane, are you wishing to make a statement to this Committee? MR XEGETWANE I am not prepared to make any statement. I just want to thank the person who appeared here, who was actually behind all this that happened to my house. I just wanted to ask a few questions to Mr Patrick Ndlumbini, what was the reason behind. I have nothing more and I have peace because he is my brother. That's all. Can I pose a few questions to him? CHAIRPERSON Will you recall the applicant, please. MR WILLIAMS I will do that. CHAIRPERSON You are being asked to come in, because Mr Xegetwane wishes to put some questions to you. Do you understand? MR NDLUMBINI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Xegetwane, you may put your questions to the applicant. MR XEGETWANE Mr Patrick, it is the first time that I see you today. I am happy to see you there and I have peace in my heart and everything that has been said here, just because you are my brother, I have forgiven you. But I want to know, what was the reason that you even go to such an extent of burning my house and you even injured my children, because of the type of the rifles that you used in shooting. What was the reason? MR NDLUMBINI Mr Xegetwane, Comrade Xegetwane, I am going to try to answer the question like this. While the people were burning your house I was not present. I am going to talk about the attack, while using the R4 and the other hand-gun. As we had already heard, that there was this taxi violence in the communities, what used to happen was this. We realised that there was another organisation that was an opponent of the ANC. Therefore we realised that you were the person in the forefront of this opponent organisation. You are among the people who were perpetrating violence in our communities. That was the reason we came to that decision that we must remove your from our community. That was, the aim was to show you that you are not needed in our communities. Killing was not our aim. Because this was a common action, it was something that used to happen in other places to show the people that are not wanted in the communities. MR NDLUMBINI What do you think and say about the expenses? I lost 26 000. My house was burnt down to ashes and one of my children is deaf. CHAIRPERSON MR XEGETWANE Thank you very much. This is the last question. I am happy to see you here. The battle is over. I wish that this court can forgive you. Thank you very much. I am also happy to see you because I never knew you before. It is my very first time to see you here. It is obvious that I was looking for a person that I don't even know. Can you please come and shake hands with me, if the battle is over, because the battle is over. Thank you. Can I go back to my seat now? CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may do so. You are also excused. APPLICANT EXCUSED MR BRINK I don't propose calling any witnesses other than Mr Xegetwane. CHAIRPERSON Mr Williams, we do not wish to hear any argument from you. Mr Brink, is there anything you wish to say? MR BRINK No, no, I think the applicant has made out a case, with respect, for the grant of amnesty. JUDGE WILSON Mr Brink, I was lucky enough last week, sitting in Bloemfontein, to have counsel appearing before us who somehow had a surplus of the recent submissions of the ANC. I don't know if you have had an opportunity of seeing them yet, but it does appear that this applicant, what this applicant has told us, slots very much in to the submissions made by the ANC, set out in their further submissions, dated the 12th of May. MR BRINK Yes, I haven't had an opportunity of reading them, I haven't been supplied with a copy. I would like to get a copy, I probably will. In the light of your remarks, I appreciate the Committee is extremely busy. This matter does assume some urgency in view of the fact that the applicant has to go back to court, in July. I merely mention that because it would seem an incredible waste of time and money for him to be - for the trial to continue and possibly to go to prison on his plea of guilty. CHAIRPERSON As I understand the situation correctly, that as far as he is concerned, he only has to go back to court in respect of the application, the first application and not the second one, that is the damage to Mr Xegetwane's house. That is not the charge against him. MR WILLIAMS That is not the charge against him. CHAIRPERSON Yes. JUDGE WILSON There is a charge of attempted murder, isn't there? In respect of Mr Xegetwane, page 14 of the papers. MR WILLIAMS Judge Wilson, that attack relates to the evidence which applicant gave here, it relates to the firearm attack on Mr Xegetwane's house. JUDGE WILSON So he is facing two charges not just one? MR WILLIAMS The charges he face relates to Mr Xegetwane's and the policeman. Those are the only charges. CHAIRPERSON And what happened to the trial? I thought you said he pleaded guilty? MR WILLIAMS He pleaded guilty to the one charge relating to the policeman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. And has he been found guilty? MR WILLIAMS He has been convicted in respect of that and I refer to his plea of guilty which I annexed in the papers. It is in the file. CHAIRPERSON And in respect of the second offence, was he found guilty? MR XEGETWANE He has not yet been found guilty in respect of the second offence. CHAIRPERSON He has not yet been found guilty? MR WILLIAMS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So the trial has not concluded? MR WILLIAMS The trial is not concluded. CHAIRPERSON Oh? MR WILLIAMS Can I just explain the reason for that, is that the victim in the second, or the complainant in the second matter, has never been to court, despite the fact that the prosecutor allege that he has been subpoenaed on several occasions. And the Court granted a final indictment to enable to the prosecutor to see if he can't find the complainant in that matter. CHAIRPERSON I understand. Thank you very much. Mr Brink, will this be a convenient stage to take the adjournment? MR BRINK Yes, yes, it would. CHAIRPERSON You are ready with the next matter. MR BRINK I would like a few minutes. I haven't met the attorney appearing in the next matter and just to see if everything is all right and bring him through, and possibly we could have a 15 minutes adjournment. CHAIRPERSON Very well, we will take a short adjournment at this stage. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS