amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS DURBAN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54688&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/durban/botha.htm TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION DAY 1 - 12 AUGUST 1996 AMNESTY APPLICATION DAWID PETRUS BOTHA CHAIRPERSON Ladies and gentlemen, this is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee which comprises of myself as Chairman, Judge Andrew Wilson, on my right, Judge Ngoepe on my left, Mr Chris de Jager SC on his left, and attorney Ms Sisi Khampepe on the extreme right. You may begin. MR BRINK: MS VAN DER WALT Mr Chairman, I appear on behalf of Mr Dawid Petrus Botha. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, I represent Mr Smuts. MR WILKINSON: Andrew Wilkinson, and I appear on behalf of Eugene Marais. MR BRINK Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, I understand that the first applicant to give evidence will be Dawid Petrus Botha. What language do you wish to speak? MS VAN DER WALT Afrikaans. DAWID PETRUS BOTHA (sworn states) MS VAN DER WALT Mr Botha you are currently in the Zonderwater Prison at Cullinan is that correct? MR BOTHA MS VAN DER WALT: And you were - on what date were you convicted? MR BOTHA On 13th of September 1991. MS VAN DER WALT You were convicted on what charges? MR BOTHA Seven Charges of murder, twenty-seven of attempted murder, and one for the illegal possession of firearms. MS VAN DER WALT And you were sentenced to death initially for the seven charges of murder? MR BOTHA That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT After that your sentence was commuted and you were given lifelong imprisonment. MR BOTHA That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Or a period of imprisonment? MR BOTHA I received a period of 30 years imprisonment. MS VAN DER WALT Could you sketch your background to the Committee and then also place before the Committee what actually happened. MR BOTHA The Afrikaner, or the Boer could not obtain good positions of employment and as a result of the policy which was followed by the British in those years and also Louis Botha and the Jan Smuts Government, my grandfather who fought in the Anglo-Boer War came to the realisation that if you cannot speak both languages that you would not be able to obtain any significant post. As a result of this, my grandfather sent his children, namely my father and his brothers and sisters, they were sent to English schools for their academic education in a foreign language, in other words, not their mother tongue, and that meant that I was also sent to an English school. And as I grew up I realised that it was not right that I was forced to speak a different language to my home language to be able to become something in this world, and for that reason I was very proud of the National Party Government who espoused the cause of the Boer Nation. When the CP was founded in 1982 I became a supporter of the Conservative Party. I could identify with the ideals and policy of this party. In the 1983 referendum, when the issue to be voted on was whether there should be a change in the then political dispensation, I voted against it. I was not in favour of the change. I could see that the Boer in his own country would be alienated once again, and that everything which he had thus far brought about and established would be taken away from him. Everything which the Boer nation has established and achieved in the history of this country it achieved through struggle and humiliation, oppression and suffering. For that reason I aligned myself very firmly with the Conservative Party and I supported it. In 1987 elections I voted for the CP, and that was the first election that the CP took part in and they were so well supported that they became the official opposition in Parliament. In this period I also became a member of the AWB - Afrikaner Weerstands Beweging because I felt that this movement supported the ideals of the Boer nation, and wanted to protect us. All that we asked was that which any nation asks, namely to govern itself in its own territory. During that time there were independent Black states, namely Transkei, Venda, Bophuthatswana and so on, and we did not begrudge any nation the right to govern itself in its own sovereign] territory. We did not claim for ourselves anything which we did not allow any other nation. We believed that whether Zulu, Boer or Xhosa, that you have the right to live amongst your own people in your own territory and to govern yourself. And that is what the AWB requested from the then National Party Government but our requests were regarded with contempt. Although I was a member of the AWB at that stage, I was not an active member and with the election of 6 September 1989 election, in the period before this election, I started working for the Conservative Party. We put up posters, we registered voters, we canvassed and I became known to the Conservative Party and eventually I was elected as the chairperson of the management of the Conservative Party, that is the Empangeni branch for the Umfolozi constituency. I devoted myself to the task at hand and I worked very hard . I was so intensely involved with the election campaign that I endured a lot of stress to the point where I actually suffered a heart-attack, and in 1990 I had to undergo a heart by-pass operation. The result of that election is now history today, and I realised that the political dispensation in this country had changed irrevocably; that the political dispensation as we had known it was something of the past, it was gone forever. I realised that the Boer nation would have to enter the fray again, to enter the struggle to regain that which had been taken away from it, namely our freedom and the right to govern ourselves in our own territory. For that reason I contacted Mr Eugene Terreblanche, the leader of the AWB and we had a political meeting in Richards Bay, and due to the fact that I was very well known in right-wing circles in the Umfolozi area, I within a very short period of time, gained and recruited a whole group of new members for the AWB. At that stage the so-called Wenkommando of the AWB had not yet been established, but once it had been established, I got together a group, a commando group, and we started training them. Mr Eugene Terreblanche appointed me as Kommandant of the AWB in the Northern Zululand region. Whilst I served in the AWB I was also elected to deputy-chairperson of the financial Committee of the AWB, and in this capacity, I attended various meetings throughout the Free State and the Transvaal. At one such meeting I was approached by members of the Orde Boerevolk. They wanted to recruit me to establish a cell of this Orde Boerevolk in Richards Bay. They explained to me what the motives and objectives of this cell would be, and I could identify with these objectives because they believed in what I believed in. I identified with their objectives because my beliefs were the same as their beliefs, namely that we would have to struggle to regain that which had been taken away from us. I had to swear an oath. They told me that if I could not identify myself with any particular item in this oath I should tell them that and then that meeting would be regarded as never having taken place and not be held against me and I could just leave. I read through the oath and I agreed with each and every point contained in the oath. I took the oath and they then told me, and I indeed believed it at the time, that there was already a civil war existing in South Africa although it might have been a very low intensity civil war, but the violence was present MS VAN DER WALT Mr Botha may I interrupt you at this point. You are referring here to an oath which you swore. I would like to show you a document with the permission of the Chairperson. I can then hand it in as exhibit A. I would like to show you the oath of the Orde Boerevolk and you could then just indicate whether that is the oath and then read it to us. Is that the oath? MR BOTHA Yes, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT The name here is Mr Eugene Marais, but that - is this a similar oath to the one you took? MR BOTHA MS VAN DER WALT Could you then please just read this into the record. MR BOTHA I think, Chairperson, I must just explain, that at the time that I was recruited, the Orde Boerevolk had already declared war officially against the National Party Government, and that they did by means of a video taken by the leader of the Orde Boerevolk, Piet Rudolf, after he stole weapons at the Air force headquarters in Pretoria. MS VAN DER WALT Excuse me, you are mentioning a video was that actually broadcast? Was it seen in South Africa? MR BOTHA MS VAN DER WALT But the citizens of this country took note of what Piet Rudolf had said? MR BOTHA Oh yes, most definitely. At the time that this video material was made available, it followed shortly after the incident when the weapons were stolen at the headquarters in Pretoria and it was quite a sensational issue at the time, so I think everybody realised that this was an official declaration of war. Would you ..... MS VAN DER WALT Yes, read the oath. MR BOTHA It says "I hereby......" and then my name "DAVID PETRUS BOTHA, and your date of birth. I take an oath that I commit myself to the freedom struggle of the Boer nation to: 1) to establish the independence of the Boer Republics in 1902; 2) the current, so-called Republic of South Africa to bring that to an end; and I also swear that I will be faithful to this oath and carry out all orders issued to me in the furtherance in the above objectives. That I will ensure that all instructions which I might issue in the furtherance of the above objectives and I further declare under oath that I will not, in respect of an instruction by any body in respect of the ideals of the Orde Boerevolk and the old Boer Republics or the Republic of the Orange Free State that I will not infiltrate, commit espionage or report on their activities, whether orally, in writing or in whatever form, and furthermore I undertake to never, in respect of the activities of any member fighting the above struggle, to report the activities of such a member to anybody. And lastly, that I never in any court of whatever nature, will testify against any existing or former member, or in respect of the activities of the Order or its supporting bodies will never testify against it or these people. So help me God." And was signed in the presence of two witnesses. MS VAN DER WALT And you then took this oath on that particular day? MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT And did you believe everything mentioned in this oath? MR BOTHA We prepared ourselves for an onslaught against our people, and on the morning of the 9th of October 1980, I heard on SABC news that a group of about 30 Black people clad in PAC T-shirts had attacked Whites on the Durban beachfront using knives, and that various people had been wounded and taken to hospital and that an elderly man had died as a result of the wounds so sustained. JUDGE WILSON Yes, the date, you said 1990, is that correct? MR BOTHA When the attack took place? JUDGE WILSON Yes. MR BOTHA Yes that is when the attack took place. JUDGE WILSON Because it was interpreted I think as 1980. I may have misheard it, but I think the interpretation was wrong. MR BOTHA Thank you. I was under the impression that the campaign of terror by the PAC against Whites had now commenced, and since we had already declared war against the National Party, and as a result of this attack, I as cell leader felt that we should launch a counter-attack to prove to the government of the day, and to show to it that the road it was following was full of danger and that incidents of this kind would increase in frequency. Our purpose was also to show to the PAC and its communist allies that attacks of this kind would not be tolerated, and that we would take counter-measures in a very forceful way. And I also felt that the counter-attack should take place in Durban where the attack from the PAC had taken place in the morning and I felt that the attack by the PAC and the counter-attack should be seen in context, and I think we succeeded in this, because in the Sunday Tribune of the 14th of October 1990 in which interviews had been conducted with passengers in a bus from where the attack was launched, it said that they believed that the attack had been launched by Boers as a result of the PAC attack that morning on White people at the beach front. INTERPRETER MR BOTHA When I refer to "we", when I heard of the attack, I immediately contacted Adriaan Smuts and Mr Eugene Marais and asked them whether they had heard about the attack. I must say that both Mr Adriaan Smuts and Mr Eugene Marais were members of my cell, the cell that I had established, a cell of the Orde Boerevolk. I could not immediately get hold of Mr Smuts, but I spoke to Mr Marais about it and he also felt that if this attack should just be allowed to take place and nothing be done about it without any counter-attack that we would not succeed in our objective of making people realise that this kind of attack would not be tolerated in future, or be allowed to happen with impunity. When we arrived in Durban, we drove in the vicinity of the bus ranks, but the area was very - quite quiet. The next day was the 10th of October, which would be a public holiday, Kruger Day, and perhaps that contributed to the fact that the streets of Durban were fairly quiet. We saw a minibus taxi driving past us, it was full of passengers, and we decided that we would attack this minibus. We followed the bus from the central area of Durban and the bus moved in - along the freeway in the direction of KwaMashu. The bus turned off the freeway and entered a very densely populated area, and as a result of this, I aborted the attack. I decided that we would attack this bus and gave the instruction. We then followed the bus in our car, and near the Duff Road off-ramp, I was driving the car, I should say that, and Mr Adriaan Smuts sat in the back of the car on the left-hand side, and Mr Eugene Marais was sitting in the passenger seat. We overtook the bus and I told my colleagues to fire in the direction of the bus. We used automatic attack rifles to fire at the bus as we passed the bus - as we overtook it. Immediately after the attack we returned to Richards Bay. The following day, that is the 10th of October, the very next day, I contacted the news office of the SABC and told them that I was a member of the Orde Boerevolk and that the Orde Boerevolk accepted responsibility for the attack the previous night on the Putco bus. I once again contacted the Natal Mercury offices, spoke to the same reporter and told him that I was aware of the fact that news of this kind would normally be suppressed by the government and I threatened that unless the news was published and unless they mentioned that the attack had been launched by the Orde Boerevolk and mentioned our reasons for doing so, unless this was published, I would launch a similar attack. I later learned that at the time of the second call to the Natal Mercury , the security police were actually in the office and had spoken to the reporter during my phone call. On the 17th of October 1990, I, Mr Smuts and Mr Marais were arrested by the police. We were detained in terms of Section 29 of the Internal Security Act whilst the case against us was being investigated. After that we appeared in court where we were charged with murder, attempted murder and illegal possession of fire-arms. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Justice Galgut was the presiding judge? MR BOTHA MS VAN DER WALT And before sentencing what did the judge say? MR BOTHA He summarised the entire court proceedings and he said that he and the two assessors had to decide whether they were going to impose lengthy prison sentences or whether the death penalty would be introduced. He also said that, although he believed that we would not launch such an attack again, our political convictions were so deeply ingrained that they decided to impose the death penalty. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Botha, when you went for trial did you plead guilty? MR BOTHA That is correct, Mr Chairman. MS VAN DER WALT And you and Mr Adriaan Smuts were tried together? There was a separation of the trials as far as Mr Marais was concerned? MR BOTHA That is correct Mr Chairman. MS VAN DER WALT In mitigation, you testified in mitigation? MR BOTHA Yes I did, Mr Chairman. MS VAN DER WALT And you also outlined the events for the court as you have done for us today? MR BOTHA I did, yes. MS VAN DER WALT So from the beginning you have never tried to conceal anything? MR BOTHA MS VAN DER WALT Listening to your evidence, it seems that you joined the Orde Boerevolk and then you established a cell in Richards Bay? MR BOTHA Yes. MS VAN DER WALT That cell - did they operate openly -or what was the situation? MR BOTHA MS VAN DER WALT It is quite clear from your evidence that you summoned the other two members of the cell and that you gave the instruction to shoot on this bus. Is this correct? MR BOTHA That is correct, Mr Chairman. MS VAN DER WALT You took the decision. Was it your personal decision, or did you do so on behalf of the organisation? MR BOTHA I did so on behalf of and in the name of the Orde Boerevolk. At the time that I had been sworn in, and considering the expectation that there was that violence was on the increase, and that violence would increasingly become not Black on Black, but Black on White. At that time they told me that I should hit back firmly and effectively so as to make it clear that such actions would not be tolerated. Where attacks of this sort took place and where Whites lost their lives as a result of organised political violence we had to hit back firmly, to such an extent that ten Blacks should die for every White who lost his life. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Botha, did you give this instruction because you would get anything personally for it? MR BOTHA Certainly not. It was a military operation to bring home the point to the then government and the so-called liberation organisations that the Boer people would not again allow themselves to be suppressed and humiliated, that we were prepared to enter the struggle and that we would fight for our rights to continue to exist in our own territory. MS VAN DER WALT And when you were detained in terms of Section 29 of the Internal Security Act, did this include people who were detained on account of political crimes? MR BOTHA MS VAN DER WALT No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT JUDGE NGOEPE Am I correct in assuming that there is no application for amnesty by this applicant in respect of illegal possession of firearms? By this particular applicant. MS VAN DER WALT No, there is such an application. It relates to all the charges on which he was convicted. JUDGE NGOEPE Have you really dealt with that, with the illegal possession of firearms? MS VAN DER WALT MR BOTHA MS VAN DER WALT And you did so regarding all the charges of which you were convicted? MR BOTHA Quite correct. MS VAN DER WALT MR BOTHA MS VAN DER WALT And now - and then you applied again in terms of the new law and you did that for murder, attempted murder and illegal possession of firearms? MR BOTHA That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT And the illegal possession of firearms - these firearms, what were they? MR BOTHA They were an FN automatic assault rifle and an AK47. MS VAN DER WALT Who owned which weapon? MR BOTHA I was in possession of the FN rifle and Mr Eugene Marais had the AK47. MS VAN DER WALT And these arms, did you have them in your possession in order to carry out work for the Orde Boerevolk? MR BOTHA That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT This firearm was unlicensed? MR BOTHA Yes, it was. MS VAN DER WALT That will be all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT JUDGE WILSON When did you get it? MR BOTHA The firearm? It was before the attack, probably about two months before I came into possession of the FN rifle. CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness? MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. EXAMINAION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairperson. MR BOTHA MR PRINSLOO On what date was it signed? MR BOTHA It was on the 24th of September 1990. MR PRINSLOO So that was before the attack? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR PRINSLOO The other co-accused, Mr Smuts, did he sign a similar oath? MR BOTHA Yes he did. The evening before we left from Richards Bay on our way to Durban, he took the oath and he signed it, and I and Mr Marais acted as witnesses to his oath. MR PRINSLOO MR BOTHA Mr Chairperson, the forms were in my possession and on the morning of the 17th of October I arose very early. I saw through my bedroom window that there was a vehicle parked outside my flat. I used my binoculars to take a closer look and I saw that there were security police there. I recognised them. I immediately became concerned, so I took the forms with the oaths with the signatures of Mr Marais and Mr Smuts and I put them in my refrigerator in the vegetable drawer. I hid them there under the vegetables. Immediately thereafter I heard knocking on my door and 17 security policemen under a Brigadier came into my flat and informed me that they were detaining me and they searched my flat. They did not find the oath forms. MR PRINSLOO Mr Botha, after that you were detained in terms of Section 29? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Did you tell the security police where Exhibits A and the other document relating to Mr Smuts were hidden? MR BOTHA Yes, I did, and then they returned to my flat, found the forms where I had left them. MR PRINSLOO And is that where exhibit A comes from, from your flat? MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO MR BOTHA Most certainly. MR PRINSLOO At that stage were you opposed to a take-over by a PAC/ANC majority government? MR BOTHA Most certainly, because I did not believe that either of these organisations would serve the interests of the Boerevolk and I believed that they would alienate us from our own fatherland and from that which had been built up for the Boerevolk, that would be taken over simply for their own gain. MR PRINSLOO But Mr Botha, presently, what do you feel now as opposed to what you felt at the time? How - what are your present feelings? MR BOTHA I still feel committed to the struggle of the Boerevolk. The struggle for their own territory and the right to be ruled by their own people. MR PRINSLOO And how do you envisage achieving that at the moment? MR BOTHA Considering the situation as it is at present in this country, everyone is negotiating. The right-wing parties have also entered this negotiating process. There is a Volkstaat Committee which is negotiating with the current government for the right to establish a Volkstaat, and I understand that this right is also entrenched in the new constitution. So I believe that the struggle which we began and the declaration of war that we issued are no longer valid. That we are negotiating with these organs, with the government and that we should continue with these negotiations. MR PRINSLOO Now, Mr Botha, this action that you led, there was the loss of human life, there was mutilation, how do you feel about that? MR BOTHA The progress of political developments in this country has brought about tremendous loss of life on both sides, that is on the ANC, the PAC, the Security Forces, and as I said earlier, the Boerevolk are not strangers to oppression, to humiliation, all that they have ever wanted is to live in peace in their own territory and to govern themselves. That is the evidence of our history. MR PRINSLOO Mr Botha, this attack was in Durban, and not in Richards Bay where you resided? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And what was the reason for that? MR BOTHA MR PRINSLOO Mr Botha, if I understand your evidence correctly, this Orde Boerevolk cell operated underground in secret? MR BOTHA That is quite correct. MR PRINSLOO Mr Smuts, one of your members, he was your subordinate? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR PRINSLOO At that stage you were also a member of the AWB? MR BOTHA That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR PRINSLOO And that also applied to Smuts? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Was Smuts also your subordinate in the AWB? MR BOTHA That is correct. Yes, he was a Field-cornet. MR PRINSLOO Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO EXAMINATION BY MR WILKINSON Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Botha, you testified that you were instructed to establish a Orde Boerevolk cell in Richards Bay? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR WILKINSON Do you think Mr Marais specifically had any doubt in your role as leader of the cell? MR BOTHA Absolutely not. MR WILKINSON You also testified that while you were moving past the bus that you gave the instruction to fire on the bus? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR WILKINSON Given that time, do you think Mr Marais would have fired at the bus? MR BOTHA MR WILKINSON MR BOTHA MR WILKINSON Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILKINSON CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK MR BOTHA MR BRINK MR BOTHA MR BRINK Did you never discuss the matter with Mr Rudolf perhaps to ascertain the size of this group? MR BOTHA I must say that at the time of the attack, although I had seen Mr Rudolf, I had never spoken with him. And also at the time of the attack, if my memory serves me correctly, Mr Rudolf was already in detention in terms of Section 28 of the Internal Security Act. MR BRINK Can you tell the Committee how many members of the Orde Boerevolk there were in your particular group in Richards Bay? MR BOTHA I only recruited four members. My order was that a cell consisted of five, a leader and four members. MR BRINK You see, I ask these questions because you refer in your evidence to a declaration of war, and what I really want to know, is who declared war and on whom? MR BOTHA The leader, Mr Piet Rudolf, as I said in my evidence. He stole the firearms from the Airforce headquarters. Out of that, by way of a video which the movement made and released to the media, he, by means of this, declared war on the then government. MR BRINK MR BOTHA MR BRINK After you had heard about the attack upon these White people at the beach front by allegedly PAC members, did you take advice from anyone more senior to you in the Orde Boerevolk, or were you not able to do so? MR BOTHA No, I did not. MR BRINK So this was a unilateral action, which you decided should be taken without consulting anyone at all? MR BOTHA Mr Chairman, I explained that this attack had to take place in Durban on the same day as the PAC attack so that the one attack could be related to the other. It was not an action that one could plan days before the time. Action had to be taken - and fast. MR BRINK MR BOTHA That is correct. MR BRINK Did you not think, perhaps it might be better to hold back and investigate the offices of the PAC, the whereabouts of the local offices of the PAC, because they were unbanned at that stage? MR BOTHA MR BRINK Well, what is your military experience, Mr Botha? Conventional military experience? MR BOTHA I did my national service, my military service in the South African Navy. MR BRINK For how long? MR BOTHA MR BRINK MR BOTHA MR BRINK Very well. When you got to - when you got to Durban that evening, you told the Committee that you saw a taxi and as I understand your evidence, you followed the taxi for some distance? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR BRINK And the taxi drove into what - built-up area consisting of so-called White houses? MR BOTHA No it was a non-White area. MR BRINK MR BOTHA MR BRINK What I really want to know is why the attack on the taxi was aborted? MR BOTHA MR BRINK MR BOTHA Mr Chairman, when one is waging a war, you do so in such a way that one can fight again the next day. We are not like the Japanese Kamikaze pilots. We are waging war so that we can continue to wage that war the next day and for years. MR BRINK But - you talk about war. These were innocent people, these were innocent people going home from work. MR BOTHA MR BRINK MR BOTHA And in the prevailing climate of that time, one of political violence and increasing crime, it was my aim to bring home the point that attacks of this kind in which the simple factor was that a Black organisations attacked Whites because they were White hat such attacks should not be allowed. And the whole aim of my attack was to bring that point home to both the PAC and the government against whom we had declared war. JUDGE WILSON MR BOTHA Mr Chairman, no not in the sense that I felt that I had been acted against personally. JUDGE WILSON Do you remember that in your application you wrote about medium B and you said "I immediately approached - contacted Smuts and Marais who were both members of the Orde Boerevolk and we decided that we should take vengeance". MR BOTHA CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR DAWID PETRUS BOTHA (s.u.o). CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK (cont) Just before the adjournment you were talking about this having been a war, it was imperative that you had to do what you did. My question is this, did you not think that it would have been better to have left the investigation of the assaults upon the White people at the beach front to the South African Police? MR BOTHA Mr Chairman, you must understand, we had declared war against the National Party Government and any other organisations striving to take away our rights from us, those are our rights to self-determination. INTERPRETER MR BOTHA MR BRINK You will agree with me, I think, that violence breeds violence, do you agree with that? MR BOTHA Unfortunately, history has proved that to be the case, yes. MR BRINK Did you not consider the possible repercussions of your activities, that there could have been enormous, enormous follow-up violence, Black on White, White on Black, whatever? MR BOTHA MR BRINK Is it your belief today, as you sit there, that what you did was the right thing to have done? MR BOTHA MR BRINK What I really want to know is if whether you today regret what you did and have remorse for what you did? MR BOTHA MR BRINK Thank you Sir. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK JUDGE WILSON: You made an application, a very long application - do you remember that? In which you asked for indemnity, release ... [intervention] MR BOTHA Are you referring to the new application which I made? JUDGE WILSON No, the old application. MR BOTHA Yes, yes, that is correct. JUDGE WILSON In this application you also said on page 31 "Without the applicant having any specific plan, the applicant walked to Eugene Marais and asked him whether he had heard. After Eugene Marais denied having heard, the applicant told him the news, and added, that vengeance had to be taken". Do you remember that? MR BOTHA JUDGE WILSON Application for indemnity or release - applicant DP Botha. MR BOTHA No, those - those are not my words. JUDGE WILSON MR BOTHA Sir, it was not ... [intervention] JUDGE WILSON 36 pages? And on page [intervention] MR BOTHA JUDGE WILSON Maybe your attorney can explain to me what is going on here? MS VAN DER WALT Your Honour that application was not in my possession. It was obviously an earlier application. This morning my learned friend told - showed me the documents. I did not actually draft the documents as such. JUDGE WILSON MS VAN DER WALT I believe so. JUDGE WILSON And on page [indistinct] INTERPRETER The microphone is not on. JUDGE WILSON On page 32 it says "The applicant then took the oath forms and they walked out of the flat, after which he told Adriaan about the incident. Between the three of them they decided that a vengeance attack should be launched. The applicant told both men that it should take place under the auspices of the Orde Boerevolk and not the AWB." MR BOTHA JUDGE WILSON It also says that you also took his false number plates. MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct. JUDGE WILSON Where did you obtain these number plates, and when? MR BOTHA Mr Chairman, false number plates are easily obtainable at a scrap-metal yard from old cars. I took them on the evening of the attack to use them to conceal the identity of the car. JUDGE WILSON Thank you. JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Botha, to follow up on the question that was put to you by my brother. From the Judgment by the Appellate Division, one finds the following on page 29 of the bundle of documents - the second page 29. "The first appellant testified that the attack on the bus was an action of the Orde Boerevolk with which the AWB had nothing to do". Is that in fact how you in fact testified during your trial before - before the trial court? MR BOTHA I remember that in my trial before Judge Galgut, I made it clear that, although I was a member of the AWB, the AWB had not been involved in the attack in any way, and that it was an Orde Boerevolk action. Yes, that is correct. JUDGE NGOEPE MR BOTHA As a cell leader of the Orde Boerevolk I took the decision, yes. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you think it would be in line with the policy and instructions of the Boerevolk? MR BOTHA Yes, I did think that, since at the time of my swearing in as a member of the Orde Boerevolk it was said to me that if a White person should lose his life as a result of Black organised political violence, ten lives must be taken. Ten Black lives should be taken for each White life lost in this kind of attack. That was our policy. Those were instructions given to me and I carried out these instructions. JUDGE NGOEPE Was that aimed at achieving any political purpose, the killing of ten Blacks for every White killed? MR BOTHA The objective behind that instruction was to demonstrate to the then government and to the PAC to persuade them that they should change their views and to show that if they continued with their objectives, that would lead to great confrontation. JUDGE NGOEPE I have difficulties in understanding you because what you are really saying according to your evidence is that - if the following day, after the attack of the bus, if one White person was killed, you would go on and kill another ten and so on and so on and so forth. MR BOTHA Yes, that was the instruction that we received. JUDGE NGOEPE MR BOTHA Or until I was killed. JUDGE NGOEPE How do you manage to achieve any political objective by so doing? MR BOTHA JUDGE NGOEPE I accept that it was not for you to question the policy or instructions of the OB, but why do you seek to justify the instructions of one White per ten Black in terms of political achievement? MR BOTHA Mr Chairman, if you look back at what happened in history, like for instance when America dropped the two atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, hundreds of thousands of people were killed after the dropping of one bomb. That was not done to commit mass murder, but to compel the Japanese government to stop the war, to prevent further loss of human life, to bring an end to the aggression on the part of the Japanese people. And those were my objectives - to stop the aggression of the PAC, to change their views. As far as I was concerned at the time, the only way in which that could be done was not by means of half-hearted conduct but to act in a very forceful manner to bring that message across. JUDGE NGOEPE You see the same judge on page 34 says the following "As already indicated, the motive was revenge and nothing else. In fact, the first appellant admitted this in his testimony." By eerste applikant he is actually referring to yourself, am I right? MR BOTHA That is correct. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you in fact say so because that is what the learned Judge says here. He says you yourself actually said so, that the motive was weerwraak (revenge). Did you in fact say so during the trial? MR BOTHA Yes, but let me put this into context. I also there drew a comparison that in the war in Israel - for instance if a Palestinian crossed the border into Israel and killed an Israeli citizen, he would then be acting against the Israeli Defence force, and the Defence force would then act in a cross-border operation and they would eradicate a whole town in one attack - a whole Palestinian village. JUDGE NGOEPE You are not saying that the Judge misunderstood you, are you? MR BOTHA I think maybe the Judge incorrectly understood the word in the context in which I used it. JUDGE NGOEPE Well maybe that should have been pointed out to him. The firearms, or rather the FN of which you were convicted, where did you get it from? MR BOTHA It was a Defence force issue rifle. JUDGE NGOEPE Had it been regularly or properly issued to you? MR BOTHA JUDGE NGOEPE How did you manage to get hold of it? MR BOTHA It had been in the possession of a fellow AWB member. JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry, come again? MR BOTHA It had been in the possession - it had been issued - it had been issued to a person who had been a member of the AWB and I was friendly with this person. JUDGE NGOEPE And then he gave it to you? MR BOTHA And he gave it to me to use. JUDGE NGOEPE With ammunition? MR BOTHA With? JUDGE NGOEPE With the ammunition? MR BOTHA With the ammunition, yes, that is correct. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you tell him what you wanted it for? MR BOTHA JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Botha, when you drove into Durban for the purpose of launching an attack, your intention was throughout that the people to be killed should be Black, am I right? MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct. JUDGE NGOEPE Irrespective of whether they supported the PAC or the members of the PAC. MR BOTHA That is correct because the attack which had been launched that morning by the PAC, had been launched on exactly the same basis. They did not first ask the White people they attacked whether they were members or supporters of the National Party, the Democratic Party, the ANC or whatever. They were simply attacked because they were White. JUDGE NGOEPE And you thought the attack that you had always been fearful of by Blacks on Whites had now ... [intervention] MR BOTHA Commenced? JUDGE NGOEPE Had now commenced? MR BOTHA That is correct. JUDGE NGOEPE With a few knives in the streets of Durban? MR BOTHA That attack was the beginning and if you look back from that attack to today, how many other attacks there have been by the PAC on Whites, it has increased. That which we expected materialised, it was real, it was not just our imagination. JUDGE NGOEPE You referred to a training of some kind which members of - which you received, I think, as members of the AWB. MR BOTHA No, the training to which I referred was training which I received when I was doing my military training. JUDGE NGOEPE No, I thought you recruited a few people and then the training started? MR BOTHA JUDGE NGOEPE Is that military training? MR BOTHA Yes, yes that is military training. JUDGE NGOEPE For what purpose? MR BOTHA To prepare us for the struggle ahead. JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Botha I would like to ask you some questions about the decision that was taken that for every one White man that would be killed, there must be ten Blacks who should be killed. When was that decision taken? MR BOTHA Mr Chairman, when the Orde Boerevolk declared war against the government by means of the video, it was also the aim of the Orde Boerevolk by means of this declaration to make the government realise that the policy that they were pursuing was fraught with danger and as I have said, in right-wing circles attacks of this kind ... [intervention] CHAIRPERSON No, I understand the reasons, I want to know, when was that decision taken that, that should be the policy and where was that decision taken? MR BOTHA CHAIRPERSON Is there a document which records that, that was an official decision being taken? Is there some such paper? MR BOTHA CHAIRPERSON And to your knowledge there is no document which records this as a decision? MR BOTHA As far as I know yes, that is the case. Nothing other than the video recording which was released by the Orde Boerevolk. CHAIRPERSON And so how was this decision communicated to you personally? MR BOTHA This happened at the time when I was recruited, when the objectives of the Orde Boerevolk were explained to me and when I was sworn in as a member. That was when the instruction was conveyed. CHAIRPERSON All that happened one day, the same day, the day you took the oath? MR BOTHA That is correct. ADV DE JAGER You realise that if you want to be given amnesty, it is a requirement of the Act you must make a full disclosure of what your participation was and what you have done and where you received your instructions from? MR BOTHA Yes, I am fully aware of that. ADV DE JAGER Now in the light of that could you tell the Committee where were you sworn in, who undertook the swearing-in ceremony, and who conveyed these instructions to you? MR BOTHA I was recruited as a member of the Orde Boerevolk by an AWB training camp at Theunissen in the Orange Free State. I was notified that a meeting would take place of the Financial Committee of the AWB and that I should attend this meeting. An unknown person came to me and asked me whether I was Kommandant Piet Botha from Richards Bay, and I answered in the affirmative. He then took me into a building and said I had to walk down the passage and enter the second door on the right as there were people there who wanted to see me. I walked down the passage. I thought that maybe this was the start of the meeting. When I got to the door, the door was closed. I knocked, but it was locked. The question was asked "Who are you?" and I told them. They asked me to wait for a moment. The door was opened and I entered. Two people were sitting inside the room dressed in khaki clothes, not in the uniform of the AWB, they simply wore khaki clothes without any insignia. Both of these persons wore Balaclavas, and when I entered the room they locked the door behind me, and then they told me that they were members of the Orde Boerevolk and that they had been watching me for quite a considerable time, and that they wanted to appoint me as a member of the Orde Boerevolk. They wanted me to establish a cell of the Orde Boerevolk in Richards Bay. Whether I had seen them before I could not tell you because I could not identify them as a result of the fact that they were wearing Balaclavas. We also discussed ways of communicating with each other. For instance, code names, telephone numbers etc. I could contact them and they would be able to contact me. ADV DE JAGER At that stage, were there no channels of communication you could use to negotiate matters? What was the attitude of the CP, the AWB and the Orde Boerevolk about negotiation? MR BOTHA ADV DE JAGER Mr Botha, what I am trying to get at, is, was the AWB prepared to negotiate at Kempton Park? MR BOTHA ADV DE JAGER Was the Orde Boerevolk prepared to do that? MR BOTHA ADV DE JAGER Thank you. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Botha, would you please just explain to us how Mr Marais came to be recruited into your cell? MR BOTHA At that stage it suited me to keep it like that and when I founded the cell of the Orde Boerevolk I discussed it with him. Just as I had been recruited, I recruited him and submitted the oath form to him and asked him if he would be able to associate himself with the provisions in the oath and whether he was prepared to take that oath. He answered in the affirmative, and that is how I recruited him as a member of the Orde Boerevolk. MS KHAMPEPE Was he not introduced to you by a person who was also a member of the AWB? MR BOTHA That is quite correct. MS KHAMPEPE And what was the name of that person? MR BOTHA It was a Mr van Wyk. MS KHAMPEPE And was Mr van Wyk also a member of your cell? MR BOTHA MS KHAMPEPE Did you not think of recruiting him as well? MR BOTHA MS KHAMPEPE Now you obviously took your job seriously as a cell leader, that you had to establish a cell? MR BOTHA Most definitely. MS KHAMPEPE Particularly in view of the fact that you had declared war against the Nationalist Party? MR BOTHA Absolutely correct, that is quite right. MS KHAMPEPE What recruitment measures did you employ to get more members into your cell? MR BOTHA People who were well known to me as members of the AWB, those were the people I approached, people who I felt were just as committed to the struggle as I was. MS KHAMPEPE And how many members did you ultimately succeed to recruit? MR BOTHA I recruited four members for the Orde Boerevolk. MS KHAMPEPE Now why did you choose only Mr Smuts and Mr Marais for the attack in Durban and not the other members? MR BOTHA I thought at that stage that those two individuals were the most suitable out of the four members that I had recruited. MS KHAMPEPE Why were they more suitable, was it because Mr Marais possessed an AK47? MR BOTHA That was one of the main motivating reasons, yes. MS KHAMPEPE And how did you know that he owned an AK47? MR BOTHA MS KHAMPEPE What kind of training did your cell members receive? MR BOTHA MS KHAMPEPE Now Mr Botha, you obviously feared that there was going to be an attack from an organisation like the PAC because it had received extensive military training and that was a well known fact. MR BOTHA MS KHAMPEPE And training pertaining to automatic weaponry? MR BOTHA Certainly - of course. We all know that members of the PAC, ANC, Swapo at the time, all of them had received military training. Some in Russia, some in other African States and we knew that they were in possession of very advanced modern equipment. MS KHAMPEPE On this occasion, that is, the knife killing of the Whites at the beach front, was it not strange to you that the youth involved had used only knives and not a single firearm had been used? MR BOTHA MS KHAMPEPE Now, you heard in the news that the people who launched that attack had, according to your statement, red PAC T-shirts? MR BOTHA That is correct. MS KHAMPEPE Did you know the colour used by the PAC for their T-shirts? MR BOTHA MS KHAMPEPE MR BOTHA MS KHAMPEPE You did not think it reasonably important for you to consult with the other cell leaders in order to confirm that indeed, or to verify that indeed the attack was an attack by a political organisation? MR BOTHA Perhaps I could mention that the following day, that is the 10th of October, I did report back to the chiefs of staff of the Orde Boerevolk and I informed them that I had launched that attack and they expressed their approval. MS KHAMPEPE Now in your evidence given today, you stated that you could have consulted with other cell leaders, but you did not have time, you had to carry out the counter-attack immediately. MR BOTHA MS KHAMPEPE CHAIRPERSON Chiefs of staff. MS KHAMPEPE Chief of staff. MR BOTHA MS KHAMPEPE Why was the attack particularly in Durban, why could you not have sent your message by attacking nearby in Richards Bay? MR BOTHA I have already said in my evidence, if I had attacked people in Richards Bay, then that attack would not have been linked to the attack which had taken place that morning in Durban. The PAC attacked in Durban. The counter-attack also had to happen in Durban so that one would be linked to the other. MS KHAMPEPE And your attention was to attack Black people? MR BOTHA That is correct. MS KHAMPEPE Thank you. JUDGE WILSON What were the names of the members of your cell? MR BOTHA They were Mr Adriaan Smuts, Mr Eugene Marais, Mr David Tennant ... [intervention] JUDGE WILSON David? MR BOTHA Dawid Tennant. JUDGE WILSON Tennant? MR BOTHA JUDGE WILSON MR BOTHA The other one was Mr Smuts. JUDGE WILSON MR BOTHA JUDGE WILSON Thank you. And the name of the man who had the FN? MR BOTHA That was Mr Smith. S-M-I-T-H. JUDGE WILSON Smith. Did he have many rifles? MR BOTHA Mr Chairman, not as far as I know. This was his official weapon which had been issued to him by the defence force. He did tell me that it was possible that he could get more. I said I would like to have those weapons, but as far as I know that was his official military-issue rifle and it was the only one in his possession. JUDGE WILSON And as a member of the AWB - you said that the members of the AWB and OB had to collect weapons. MR BOTHA JUDGE WILSON But Smith gave his away? MR BOTHA JUDGE WILSON Thank you. ADV DE JAGER Mr Botha, just relating to a question which you were asked a moment ago about revenge and your intentions. On page 32 of the court record, under addendum C, it was put to you, MR BOTHA Now if you refer to revenge, in what sense were you referring to revenge? MR BOTHA ADV DE JAGER For the sake of clarity, this Mr Piet Rudolf that you have been referring to, was he involved in the arms theft from the Air force, the defence force? MR BOTHA Yes, that is so. ADV DE JAGER Can you just say what arms were stolen? Did he escape? Was he caught? What happened? MR BOTHA MISS KHAMPEPE Mr Botha when you were recruited to be a cell leader, were you provided with any weaponry by the OB? MR BOTHA No, no Mr Chairman, they did not provide me with any weapons, any arms. CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Mr Purshotam ? MR BRINK Just moving down just a ... [intervention] CHAIRPERSON Will you step forward, please? Would you place on record who you represent, the name of the person that you represent. MR PURSHOTAM Yes, Mr Chairperson, I represent the victims and their families who were the target of the attack which has been the subject of the proceedings this morning. CHAIRPERSON Which of the victims? Because I understand that there are some who are present here who have an attitude which might be different from others in connection with this application. MR PURSHOTAM Mr Chairman, the Legal Resources Center discovered almost by accident that these proceedings were going to be heard today. Most of the victims and their families live in the outlying rural areas of this province, and it has been less than a week in which attempts have been made to make contact with them, but from the mandate which we did receive to commence civil proceedings it would be clear in my view that they would oppose any application for amnesty by the applicants. And therefore I am here today to represent their interests. There are a few victims and their families present this morning and I would submit and ask that these proceedings not be concluded until all the victims, at least the living victims, and their families are heard on the applications which are before your Committee. CHAIRPERSON Are you in a position to tell us who the victims are that you represent here today? MR PURSHOTAM Do you want me to tell you the names of the people who are here today? CHAIRPERSON Those whom you represent here today. MR PURSHOTAM Well, I can give you a list of all the people who we are representing in the civil proceedings. CHAIRPERSON MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON Is it not possible to get a representative view instead of getting all of them coming to express the same view? MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON Are you then in a position to proceed with putting questions this morning to witnesses who might be giving evidence. MR PURSHOTAM Yes I can, I can lead the witnesses who are present this morning. CHAIRPERSON And are you in a position to question witnesses who are in fact - or applicants who are giving evidence? MR PURSHOTAM Well, I have been making notes this morning and I would like to put questions to Mr Botha. JUDGE NGOEPE MR PURSHOTAM Well the victims who I have spoken to this morning do oppose the applications for amnesty, yes. CHAIRPERSON In that case, on behalf of your clients you may ask questions of the applicant. MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Boha, you outlined in your evidence the problems which the Afrikaner people and the suffering which they underwent in the early parts of the century, and you mentioned that you had to go to an English language school and obviously you were not very keen on engaging in that language in your education. And you felt that you had to engage in a struggle. And as you grew up you saw that the National Party, the PAC and the ANC were going against the wishes of the Afrikaner people of whom you were a member. And that is how you decided that you had to ... [intervention] CHAIRPERSON We have had all this on oath. I think if it is possible for you to formulate your question, it will save a great deal of time. MR PURSHOTAM Thank you, Mr Chairman. I put it to you, Mr Botha that the only reason why you did not attack the minibus taxi was that there were too few people in that taxi and that you wanted a target such as a big bus in which there were a lot of people involved and that is why you shot up the Putco bus. MR BOTHA MR PURSHOTAM MR BOTHA MR PURSHOTAM Well I mentioned that since you were going for a bigger target, and since the Putco bus was fully lit at that time, you saw that it was fully occupied and there were more chances of you killing Black people in the Putco bus rather than killing people in the minibus taxi. MR BOTHA MR PURSHOTAM MR BOTHA I had never received instruction about those Conventions and I also believe that that particular Convention, as far as I know, only deals with prisoners of war and the waging of war in general. There are three types of war - a conventional war, a guerrilla war and counter- insurgency war. MR PURSHOTAM Well if, if it is true that you were engaged in a Guerrilla war, I put it to you that guerrillas select their targets and select their enemy. Who was your enemy in this case? MR BOTHA Our enemies at that stage were the National Party Government and any other organisation which opposed the right of the Boerevolk to their own self-determination. MR PURSHOTAM MR BOTHA Mr Chairman I indicated in my evidence that waging war is not like a game of chess. And I referred to the Second World War in which the Germans bombed London and the Britons bombed Berlin and the Americans bombed the Japanese. And these were soft, civilian targets, people who perhaps had nothing to do with the war, but in hundreds and thousands they were blotted out. The object of any military action regarding the people who orchestrate or organise an attack, in a counter-attack they have got to be shown that if they sustain this dangerous policy that there is going to be - people are going to hit back. That was our aim. I had nothing against the people in the bus, nothing personal. It was a military strategy. JUDGE WILSON MR BOTHA There was not yet any official communication between the chiefs of staff of the Orde Boerevolk and me at that stage, that apart from the instructions that I received when I was sworn in. Neither do I know what actions the Orde Boerevolk were planning in the future against the government. I was just waiting. I established my cell, I was preparing myself for the eminent war and I was waiting for orders. JUDGE WILSON But you got no orders. You have just told us that you regarded your enemy as the Nationalist Government and other organisations which opposed the aims of the Orde Boerevolk, is that correct? MR BOTHA Not the Orde Boerevolk, not the Orde Boerevolk, the Boer people - Boerevolk as a whole. JUDGE WILSON MR BOTHA That is correct. JUDGE WILSON MR BOTHA Because when I was sworn in, I did in fact receive instructions in that where a structure perpetrating organised political violence, in such a case ten Blacks had to be killed for every White who died. JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Botha, I get a little bit confused about this piece of your evidence, particularly when you refer to - when you give two examples of Americans and the police and the like. I thought the Americans attacked the Japanese because they regarded the Japanese as their enemy. And the Germans attacked or bombed Britain because they regarded the British as their enemy. Now, who in the bus did you regard as your enemy? MR BOTHA JUDGE NGOEPE MR BOTHA Mr Chairman, I did say in my evidence that I did not hate the Black nation or any nation. Since I gained any consciousness, we, I grew up in this country and we grew up next to one another, why should I suddenly develop hate to the degree that I wanted to attack a bus full of innocent people? JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Botha, did you regard the people in the bus as your enemy or did you not? MR BOTHA MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Botha your parallels between what happened in the Second World War and what you were engaged in, are to put it mildly, very far-fetched, because you, by your own admission mentioned that you were involved in a guerrilla war, whereas I put it to you that what happened in the Second World War was conventional warfare. So how can you draw the parallel between what happened then and what you were engaged in a few years ago? CHAIRPERSON MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman. You mentioned in your evidence in chief that your enemies were the government, the National Party, the ANC, and PAC and that you did not have enough time on that particular day to select a particular target, but if, if it is true that your enemies were the National Party and the government, surely you should have gone to any Government building and blown it up. Why did you select this group of people who were going home after work as your target? MR BOTHA I selected the group all for the same reason that the PAC had selected the Whites on the beach. As I said in my evidence, I did not write the rules, the PAC wrote those rules. MR PURSHOTAM MR PURSHOTAM IS EXCUSED ON RESUMPTION DAWID PETRUS BOTHA: (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may re-examine your witness.MS VAN DER WALT: I have no further questions. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman may I put a question to the witness? It concerns a document which is not before the Commission yet. I must apologise. We have tried to make copies and currently we only have two copies. May I hand one in to the Commission, and I will try and make further copies before the adjournment. That will be Exhibit B.CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, do you have any questions for the witness? MR BRINK No thank you. CHAIRPERSON "If you sign the documents then we do not undertake not to oppose your application for amnesty." and it is signed by a Mr Purshotam. MR PRINSLOO WITNESS EXCUSED