amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-04-14 RICHARDS BAY 4 BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54692&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/durban/dbn2.htm CHAIRPERSON Good afternoon everybody. I apologise for the late start today. We couldn't start this morning because it takes some time to set up the room, and then we were due to start earlier this afternoon because my colleagues were coming up on the airplane from Johannesburg, but unfortunately the plane was delayed and that accounts for the late start, so I apologise for the late start. Before we do start, I would like to just introduce the panel to you of this sub-Committee. On my right is Mrs Sisi Khampepe, she is an Attorney from Gauteng, on my immediate left is Mr Johnny Motata. He is an Advocate from Johannesburg, and on my far left is Mr Jake Moloi, who is an Attorney from the Free State and I am Selwin Miller, Judge from the Eastern Cape, Transkei. I would just like the legal representatives please to introduce themselves. They are on record already but if they may introduce themselves to the people. MR WILLS Good afternoon, my name is John Wills. I am an Attorney from Pietermaritzburg. I am here to represent the fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh applicants, that being Mr Bertwill Ndlovu, Mr Romeo Mbambo, Mr Brian Quna Mkhize and Mr Israel Mnyoni Hlongwane. MR STUART Thank you Mr Chairperson. My name is Angus Stuart, I am from the Durban Bar, instructed by the Campus Law Clinic of the University of Natal in Durban. I am representing the first, second and third applicants, that is Dalaqolo Luthuli, Bekhisiso Khumalo and Zweli Dhlamini. CHAIRPERSON The microphone doesn't seem to be working in front of Mr Ngubane. MR NGUBANE Thank you Mr Chairman. My name is Edward Emvuseni Ngubane, Attorney from Durban. I am representing the victims and the families of the victims, thank you. MR HEWIT Mr Chairman, I am Adv Hewit, Attorney Falconer on my right hand side and we represent various persons who will be implicated by the applicants concerned. ADV MPSHE Mr Chairman and members of the Committee, I am Adv Mpshe, representing the Truth Commission, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. This hearing commenced last week in Durban where we heard the evidence of Mr Luthuli the first applicant. We heard certain other evidence just in chief, but which will no doubt be repeated at this hearing. Mr Wills, are you ready to proceed? MR WILLS Yes, Mr Chairperson, just for the sake of the record, I confirm that the arrangements for this week would be that we would be commencing with the evidence of the sixth applicant, Mr Brian Quna Mkhize and then followed later by Mr Mbambo. Thank you Mr Chairperson, I call Mr Mkhize. BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Wills, you may commence. EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson, and members of the Committee. Mr Mkhize, you are presently a convicted prisoner being held and serving a 52 year sentence at Westville prison, outside of Durban? Is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS You were previously a Constable in the KwaZulu Police and you were stationed at eSikhawini? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS You were suspended from duty at the time of your arrest in connection with the matters you will be testifying about? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS You have the affidavit and your application for amnesty in front of you? MR MKHIZE Sorry, Mr Chairperson, there is a disconnection between me and my interpreters here, I can't hear. We can't get along. MR WILLS Sorry Mr Chairperson, for the record, there appears to be a problem with the ... MR MKHIZE Problem is solved. MR WILLS Can you hear Mr Mkhize? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR WILLS I wonder if you can speak up in an attempt that we can hear your voice naturally in any event. You have your application for amnesty in front of you together with the supporting affidavit which is attached thereto, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS That for the record, forms part of the bundle, pages 69 to 126. Mr Mkhize, I realise that this is an extensive and lengthy application, and you may refer to it from time to time. I will be taking you through that affidavit. Do you confirm the contents of the application and the affidavit? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR WILLS Do you confirm that to the best of your knowledge, that the information supplied therein is true and correct? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR WILLS Mr Mkhize, I want to commence today's proceedings with the issue of your personal background. I am going to take you through that as quickly as possible. You were born in the Mpolweni Mission in the New Hanover district? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS You were a staunch member of the IFP by the time you left school after you graduated with matric, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Can you tell us about the early influences in your life that led you to being a staunch IFP member at that early stage of your life? MR MKHIZE Shortly I can say whilst we were still at school, Inkatha was then a cultural organisation. It was one of our schooling subjects that we were taught at school. ADV KHAMPEPE Raise your voice, because as you speak the interpreter is interpreting in English, but others who are here cannot hear you because they are listening without using the headphones. MR MKHIZE I will try. At that time, whilst I was still at school, Inkatha was one of the several subjects as school, just like Biology, Maths and other subjects and therefore there was a subject that was called "Ubuntu Ubutu", which is about humanity. I studied that subject in that way. It later became clear that this was a way of contentising people, myself being part of everybody else at the time, I had to learn the subject. MR WILLS Is it correct that both your parents were also IFP supporting persons? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct because my father died whilst he was a Counsellor at Wembusy at Escort. At that time he wouldn't be a Counsellor for the KwaZulu government if you were not a member or supporter of Inkatha. At that time Inkatha was not yet a party, a political party, it was still a cultural liberation movement. It was not yet a political party and for a person to be appointed or elected to a Mayor or Counsellor position, a person had to be a staunch supporter of the movement. My father was therefore a Deputy Mayor at Wembusy at the time. MR WILLS In March 1986, you were approached by a certain Zakhile Mkehle to join the KwaZulu Police, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct, but maybe I would like to explain. Zakhile Mkehle was a member of the Central Committee of Inkatha, and we did not associate only in so far as politics was concerned, he was also my cousin. We were relatives, blood relatives. MR WILLS This Mr Mkehle was the same Zakhile Mkehle that was referred to by the first applicant, Mr Dalaqolo Luthuli during the proceedings last week, ie the IFP leader from the Mpumalanga area, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Can you tell the Committee and members of the public here, what you did in respect of the invitation by Zakhile Mkehle, the offer of a position in the KwaZulu Police? MR MKHIZE Shortly, if I can put it this way, at that time I was desperate, desperately in need of a job, I had just completed my matric and I started applying to Colleges of Education for admission, because my intention was to become a teacher. As I was waiting for a response from one of the Colleges, then came Zakhile whom I explained as a member of the Central Committee. He then told me that there is a position, a vacant post. As my cousin, I trusted him and I then asked for details relating to the position and he then explained to me that the position is in the KwaZulu Police. I then asked as to whether I was going to be a Police and he said yes. This is a position where you would be a policeman. MR WILLS Thank you. Mr Mkhize, I am sorry to interrupt you but it is important that you speak up as loud as you can. You then accepted the position and you went to a camp near Ulundi, called Hlungwani Camp, and at that camp a screening process was conducted by certain persons. Can you tell us about the screening process and also can you give the names of the persons who were instrumental in the screening process? MR MKHIZE Let me just explain this to clarify it. This doesn't mean I had not yet been admitted into the Police Force, but I would like to explain from my departing from Hammersdale, Mpumalanga where I finally left for Mhlahlane Camp in Ulundi where I was finally recruited as a person who would finally be trained in Caprivi. Beaufort Mkehle, Zakhile's brother took me and he was at the time Head of Youth Affairs in the then KwaZulu government. He connected me with Numzani Ntwe Mafole. Ntwe Mafole was at the time the National Organiser of Inkatha Youth Brigade. Ntwe Mafole then took me to Mhlahlane Camp where the recruitment was taking place, where people were being recruited which people were said to later become members of the KwaZulu Police. MR WILLS You have indicated in your affidavit in paragraph 7, page 74 of the bundle, the screening process. Can you just briefly tell the Committee what that entailed? MR MKHIZE Here I am talking about the screening process which was aimed at establishing as to how much a person qualified to be admitted for the training. MR WILLS Yes, but what were those qualifications? MR MKHIZE They were not necessarily looking at what educational qualifications a person had, the important thing that they were looking for was to first of all establish whether a person was a member of Inkatha and how trustworthy the person was within the movement, and they also looked at the physical strength, medically speaking, and they would also establish as to whether a person would be able to endure the kind of training laying ahead. They also emphasised the importance of trustworthiness within the movement, and they wanted to establish as to whether a person knew the aims of the movement and the policies of the movement. Those are the things on which they concentrated. These included among other things, things such as the Constitution and the kind of conduct that was expected of members. Basically they wanted to know how much a person knew with reference to politics. But mainly trustworthiness was important. MR WILLS You are saying in other words, correct me if I am wrong, the inference of your evidence is to the effect that in order to be selected for this position, you indeed had to be a loyal Inkatha supporter, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is what I am saying. ADV KHAMPEPE And committed Mr Wills? Loyal and committed member? There is some interference in our headphones. MR WILLS I am indebted to you Ms Committee member. Just to finalise the point, obviously the implication of your evidence is that if you were a member of another political party, you would not have been accepted into that recruitment process? MR MKHIZE Mr Chairman, they would discover such a thing timeously. Many people were sent back if I were to continue. Many people arrived in droves but only 200 were admitted and the rest was sent back. Not necessarily because they were not physically fit, but because their trustworthiness was questionable within the organisation. MR WILLS Mr Mkhize, you then received physical training for a few weeks at this camp I believe, and I am moving on to paragraph 8 of your affidavit, and then you were taken to Durban airport and you were flown to what to your knowledge then, was an unknown destination, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS I think it common cause amongst the legal representatives here, that the aircraft you were flown in was a military aircraft, and that you were taken from the camp in Zululand in an unmarked truck? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Now, can you describe fairly briefly the type of training that you received at the camp? Sorry to disturb you Mr Mkhize, I think we now all know that this was a camp indeed in the Caprivi area, in Namibia, so I am going to refer to it as the camp at Caprivi from now on. If you can describe the training you received in the Caprivi. MR MKHIZE Mr Chairman, I would like to go back a little bit because my lawyer has already spoken about two camps, the one camp in Mhlahlane. There might be confusion there, and now he is talking about the Caprivi camp. I would like to explain that the Mhlahlane camp did not entail any training, that was a transit camp, we were waiting there. Where we were waiting for a certain number of recruits, after which we would proceed on. We were only drilling and Themba Qosibe was the one in charge for that kind of training. He came from the KwaZulu Police where he was a Sergeant. He accompanied us to Caprivi. Others were also screened and they were checked by Doctors, white Doctors were also in Mhlahlane camp, checking their medical conditions and checking what other diseases they may have. The kind of training that I got there, was the kind of training that was physical, including drill among others. There came a time where we were about 206, then we were taken to Caprivi. If I were to explain, I would also say we were taken in these huge trucks that are referred to as furniture removals. Those trucks do not have windows. Many people Ii think, know those trucks. They were not necessarily meant for transporting people. We were taken into the trucks, driven to the airport and we arrived there at round about nine o'clock from Mhlahlane camp. There were not 206 of us in the trucks, we were divided into two groups and we were taken to the Durban airport where we caught a flight to Caprivi. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Mkhize, if you can just explain to the Committee members and to the members of the public, what your training at the Caprivi camp consisted of. MR MKHIZE Mr Chair, there are things that I would like to refer to, even though I realise that my representative, my legal representative seem to leave certain things out. I would like to explain some of the things, and I want to believe that as time goes on, I might come across questions which I shall have answered if I were to explain. I would like to refer my legal representative back before answering his question. If the Commission can permit? CHAIRPERSON Yes, proceed. MR MKHIZE Thank you. I would like to say on arrival at the Durban airport, we did not go through the normal airport procedure as would usually be the case when people go through the check out points, or the check in points. I am saying this because later on there might be questions that might put me in a difficult position. It is for this reason that I would like to explain that some things were not following the legal procedure and the accepted procedure, pertaining to the check in points at the airport. I am saying this because we were taken into a plane as would be the case with cargo. The plane was very close to the furniture removal truck in which we were being transported and we jumped like cargo as it was being off loaded and loaded into another truck. That on its own explains that there was something sinister about this whole thing. When we arrived at the airport where we waited at twelve o'clock, we were now approaching the airport and we realised that there was life where we were now headed. We travelled such a long distance that the flight itself, changed to freezing point. On arrival at the airport, lights went off. We landed at the airport with lights off and on landing, we were taken into some vehicles that are said to be armoured vehicles, Unimos, the ones that are used by soldiers. We used almost the same system as we did in the airport where we got into the flight, it is like cargo was being loaded. We left at about twelve o'clock at night, and we travelled for about three hours, headed for the camp at which we would finally be trained. What we observed along the way was that Unimos are no longer the same as furniture removals, they are a little bit open and people who did military training, would understand what kind of a vehicle I am talking about. What we observed however, was that the boards, the road signs and as we came here to Richard's Bay, many of you might have noticed the road signs and the boards indicating direction, indicating how far Richard's Bay is. The kind of boards that we came across along the way were covered with sacks and plastic bags. The kind of plastic bags that are used for garbage. I am saying this because I know that at the end certain questions would have been answered by so doing. Maybe the Commission and the IFP lawyers who are present here, will find it easier to follow. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Mkhize, if you can now answer my question in relation to the type of training that you received. ADV KHAMPEPE Mr Wills, I don't want to be interfering with how you are leading your witness in chief, but maybe you must have consulted with Mr Mkhize, he should ask that you ask certain questions because you know the kind of evidence that he should prefer before the Committee and to the public. It would really, I am just bothered by him prejudging the kind of questions that will be put to him by either the members of the Committee or the people who will be representing any implicated persons. MR WILLS Yes, thank you Ms Committee member. The I must stress that at this point in time, the witness does have a desire to detail his evidence as he feels that that is important for the members of the community who might want a detailed version, but if you can just bear with me for the rest of the afternoon and then I will consult later on and I am sure we will come to an acceptable arrangement. CHAIRPERSON We are here to hear your applications with regard to the various incidents which you have made reference to in your affidavit and while we appreciate your, the circumstances of your joining the Police Force, the training that you received, not only at Caprivi but at other places, is to a degree relevant to your application. It is not necessary to go into very fine detail with regard to these preliminaries. If certain questions are put to you under cross-examination relating to what happened at Caprivi and details of your training, etc, which you might not have referred to in your evidence in chief, then surely you will be protected by myself as Chairman because we understand that - well, you must understand that we cannot go into great detail with regard to that training, because it is not one hundred percent relevant to the incidents which come later. If you bear that in mind, then perhaps we can get through the preliminaries quicker. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mkhize, if you can quickly go through the kind of training you received, thank you. MR MKHIZE I will like to respond to the Chairperson first, before I get to the question. Chairperson, can I please say that the details that I am mentioning here, I do that because in this Commission and in the general public, I appear as a criminal. I appear as a person who because of his criminality just wiped out the entire community. Statements made by the IFP, B.B. Ndlovu, that are broadcast on the media implicate me as a criminal. I would like to make it clear to the Commission and the public that the criminality that they are according me today, started at that time before the training, during the training, and after the training, when I started killing people. That is when the criminality started. That I was taught by them. CHAIRPERSON You can proceed. I don't want to hinder you in your evidence, I am just saying we don't have to get the very fine detail as to the exact training that you received, but those points that you feel that you wish to stress, be free to do so. MR MKHIZE I would also like to say that coming to this Commission, is not just to seek amnesty. What is more important is to clear my name and explain to the public what happened. It is therefore important that I mention all the details so that everybody will know what happened. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Mkhize. If you could proceed with the answer to that question of mine, about the details of your training. MR MKHIZE Will you please repeat the question? MR WILLS Yes, Mr Mkhize, please can you briefly describe the training that you received at the Caprivi? MR MKHIZE Yes, I will do so. Firstly I would like to explain that the training was conducted over six months. I would also like to say that it was divided into three. The first part was Basic Training, the second part was an Advanced Course, the third and last part was called Specialised Course. In the first part, we were taught things like drill, physical training and knowing the basic functioning of a gun, the type of gun and how it works, before we got into the Advance Course. We then eventually got into the Advanced Course. In that course the course had to be more concentrated, we were taught things like field craft, that is where you are taught to behave in a military situation, and how you work in a military situation. You should be swift and you should be intelligence and you should be accurate and know what you are doing, and do it properly. There are different phases in the parts or different parts as I have mentioned. There are phases like Obstacle Crossing, where you are taught how you solve an obstacle, how you overcome a certain obstacle or problems and arrive at your objective. We were also taught about footing. That is where you are able to follow or follow certain people, maybe your group that you are working with, tracing them and getting to them. And also tracing your enemies, using such things as a compass. You were taught how to use that. You are also taught something like Fire Removements. This include positions - knowing different positions, standing, kneeling, laying positions, how you roll, how you duck, how you take cover. Such things in a military situation. We were also taught things like the buddy-buddy system where you are taught how you cooperate or how you work with some buddy, working shoulder to shoulder. How you compliment your movements, how you take different stands against the enemy. We also learnt things like house penetration, knowing how you enter a house. Maybe your target is inside, how you enter or penetrate the house and kill the target and not other people. How you enter through locked doors, what clues do you look for. If you want to remove yourself from a scene of crime, or if you want to eliminate all evidence, we were also taught things like assassination. How to kill your leaders or leaders of the community. We were taught how to assassinate such people. We were also taught about reconnaissance under the second phase. Reconnaissance is where you are taught how to trace a person, follow a person. You should know what he does in his daily life, what he watches on TV, what time he knocks off work every day, his routine. Something that he does almost every day, like going to work, coming back from work, going to play golf and so forth. That was included under what we called "recce", reconnaissance. We were taught such things, knowing what a person does in his daily life, what car he drives, knowing the type of car that he uses. We also learnt about kidnapping, where you take a person against his will. That is, he does this involuntarily. You force him to do so. It could be that you are going to kill him, or maybe you want to get some information from him that will help you or your organisation. We were taught about this and we were taught about the different ways of kidnapping so that people don't know or don't realise that you are kidnapping the person. We learnt this in the Advanced Course. We also learnt about different guns. We learnt about Eastern Block weapons. Those weapons are not used in South Africa. A lot of people don't know about them. If I can be permitted to enumerate the guns that we used, like the AK47 ... MR WILLS Mr Mkhize, if I can just interrupt, you have indicated and you can confirm this, that the list of weapons that you were trained in were the AK47, the Tocaroff, the Macaroff, the RPK, the RPD, Rocket Launchers like the RPD7, both anti-personnel and anti-tank weapons, Scorpion machine pistols, mortars, grenade launchers and the G3 rifle, is that correct? MR MKHIZE That is true, there are many others that my lawyer hasn't mentioned. MR WILLS Yes. While you were being trained, you also received some political training by as I understand, Mr Luthuli who is the first applicant to these proceedings. Could you just briefly explain the type of political training that you received? MR MKHIZE Chairperson, I will explain it this way. From the time that we arrived at Caprivi, politics was our daily bread. We were dealing with politics on a daily basis. It was the language that was used at the camp because it was important and it was emphasised that we should know it very well, whom we are fighting against and why we are fighting. We were being trained so that we would know who we are fighting against. The skills that we were being given, we were supposed to know who we are going to use them against. That was part of politics. MR WILLS And who was, you used the word enemy earlier in your evidence, who was this enemy and as explained to you by your trainers in the camp? MR MKHIZE The enemy is well known. The enemy of the IFP at that time was the ANC, but at that time it was using the UDF, the United Democratic Front. That was the wing that was used by the ANC, so a lot of things were referred to through the UDF, although it was known to be a wing of the ANC. MR WILLS And apart from the political training that you received from Mr Luthuli, is it not so that there were other white trainers in the camp, who also referred to this enemy from time to time, and used this in the process of your training? MR MKHIZE Chairperson, all our instructors were white, there was no black instructor. Luthuli was the only person who was black, and he had come with us. He was the Political Commissar. He was not only concerned with the training, but also with our welfare and moral, he would encourage us, and our general welfare. When we are talking about the training at Caprivi, it was carried out by white persons, there was no black person amongst them. MR WILLS You received a salary when you were in the Caprivi of approximately R400-00 per month, is that correct? MR MKHIZE We were informed ... (tape ends) ... amount of R400-00. Other amounts we will be receiving after the training, because we didn't really need the money at the camp. The money that we used, we would use at the canteen for beers, that was the only time that we used money. Otherwise we didn't use money for anything, because we received everything free. Guns, uniforms and food was given to us for free. And we were not in a state where we were in the public or in the community where we could buy anything that we wanted, we were in a bush. There were no luxuries, so they gave us that R400-00 so that we could have money, and we would use it or take it back, by buying those beers. MR WILLS Mr Mkhize, before I leave your training, you also make reference in your affidavit at paragraph 11, to getting taught about alibi's. For what purpose do you think you were taught about alibi's? MR MKHIZE Let me just explain what the alibi is. An alibi is a speech or a talk that you prepare in case you are confronted, that you would use. But your alibi should be believable, whoever questions you about it, should believe that you are telling the truth, whereas it is not so. We were taught about alibi's for the reason that we were told that we could be arrested. That was not hidden from us, therefore these alibi's were taught for the reason that if we attack the ANC and we happen to be arrested, there should be some things that we should put forward so that we divert information about the truth. These alibi's were carried out mainly personally, because at the end we were divided, receiving different kinds of training. In my group we did a lot of alibi's. The purpose for this was to enable us to have proper responses to the Police if they arrest us for our activities, that we would have committed to the ANC. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Mkhize. Just very briefly, you indicate in your affidavit that at certain times, certain officials would visit you at this camp, those included Mr M.Z. Khumalo and also Brigadier Marte, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Brigadier Marte only came once. The person who came on a monthly basis, was M.Z. Khumalo. At that time he was the Personal Assistant to the President of Inkatha. MR WILLS And he brought you greetings from a particular person, not so, when he arrived on a monthly basis? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. I have explained this in my statements. MR WILLS And who was the person he brought greetings from? MR MKHIZE It was the M.G. Buthelezi. MR WILLS The President of the IFP? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR WILLS Yes, Mr Chairperson, I am about to move on to another area. I got a note indicating that the time limit for this afternoon's proceedings was 4:30, I see it is approaching that time. Would this be a convenient point to adjourn? CHAIRPERSON Yes, I have been told that we should adjourn at 4:30 because of certain logistical problems, getting the applicants back to where they must stay tonight. I see it is just before half past four, so perhaps this would be a convenient time. I once again apologise to all the people present, who sat so patiently this afternoon for the late start in the matter that has only enabled us to have just over an hour's hearing, or an hour and a quarter's hearing. Hopefully tomorrow we will have a full day. If we adjourn to start at half past nine tomorrow morning, would that be convenient? MR WILLS Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we will then at this stage adjourn, and we will start again where we left off today, at half past nine tomorrow morning, that is the 15th of April 1998. Thank you. COMMISSION ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ON 15-04-1998 - DAY 5 CHAIRPERSON Good morning everybody. At the close of proceedings yesterday, Mr Mkhize was giving his evidence in chief and we will now continue with that. Mr Wills? BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE (still under oath) EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS (continued) Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mkhize, yesterday at the close of proceedings were busy finalising the aspects of your training in the Caprivi. MR MKHIZE Yes. MR WILLS Just to complete that issue, you were also trained in the usage of certain explosives, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR WILLS And those explosives are detailed in paragraph 11, on page 78 of the record? Is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR WILLS Now, you then returned to Ulundi, or to South Africa and then to Ulundi in a similar way to which you arrived, in that you flew back in a similar aircraft and then you drove to Ulundi. You were then given a few weeks' break and then you had a welcome back party, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR WILLS At this party, the Chief Minister, Mr Buthelezi congratulated you for completing the training, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR WILLS You were also then given an extra payment for undergoing the training and you recall that to be an amount of R2 000-00 is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR WILLS That was at the end of September 1986, after you had completed the six months' training, when you arrived in Ulundi? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR WILLS And then after your deployment, sorry after your return to Ulundi, you were deployed in the role of a person who was trained in contra-mobilisation in the lower South Coast, from that period until you were recalled to Ulundi in January 1988, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR WILLS Can you just briefly explain to the Committee and members of the public, what your role was in the lower South Coast region? MR MKHIZE I was posted with other three men at the South Coast, it was Mr Shinga and Mr Khumalo and Mr Shuzi. Our duty was to work at the Regional Office in uMzumbe, the IFP office in uMzumbe. We did office work and also field work, mobilising people, mobilising them to join the IFP. Secondly we would visit schools, making children aware against the UDF, because they were infiltrating schools and encouraging children to burn down schools. We did this, that is mobilising the children at school, because we were against the UDF policy of burning down schools because we were for learning and education so that we could be liberated. The UDF at the time used the slogan Education Later, Freedom First. We were against this. We visited schools to warn children against this practice. We also sold IFP attire like the uniform T-shirts and also were engaged in recruiting people to the IFP. MR WILLS You were called back to Ulundi by a certain Phillip Nqomalo in January 1988 and you then eventually ended up being trained by the South African Police in Koeberg. You have indicated in paragraph 17, page 81 of the record, that there was a little bit of a problem with this issue about being trained by the South African Police at that stage, can you just elaborate on that for the Committee? MR MKHIZE Can you please repeat the question? MR WILLS Yes, you had a problem with the issue of you being trained as a South African Police Constable and so, I am instructed, can you elaborate on that to the Committee, and how that problem was resolved? MR MKHIZE We were called from uMzumbe in January to Ulundi and we were told that we would receive further training. When we arrived at Ulundi and discovered that the training that we were going to be having, was that of being Special Constables. We had an argument with our authorities because we didn't think that after our training at Caprivi, we should go back and become Kits Constables. M.Z. Khumalo was then called and he addressed us and told us that the objective was not to become Kits Constables, but the objective was that the community of Pietermaritzburg had put a request through the IFP President, that they were experiencing difficulties. They were being attacked by the ANC. Because of that, and because the ANC was being assisted by the South African Police against Inkatha, therefore the IFP was in trouble. Therefore Dr Buthelezi had spoken to SAP authorities about this issue. He had therefore agreed with the SAP that he would bring his own people that were loyal and trustworthy to the organisation, that will be recruited into the SAP and investigate this allegation that the SAP was cooperating with the ANC, and they would in turn use means of attacking the ANC. It was for that reason that we were to join this group that was responsible for controlling riots. Special Constables were used mainly to guard certain people, and also to control riots because they would work closely with the Riot Unit. Therefore they would be directly responsible in cases like toyi-toyi and political activity. Therefore they needed people who could carry out this mission properly. Therefore our mission was to infiltrate the SAP as Special Constables, so that we could attack the ANC as Special Constables in Pietermaritzburg region. When M.Z. Khumalo addressed us like that, we realised that if that was the reason, we agreed to become Special Constables and were trained by the SAP. We were then trained at Koeberg. MR WILLS Yes, you were trained in Koeberg and then you were deployed in the Pietermaritzburg area for a while before you essentially deserted your role as a Special Constable and returned to Ulundi. During that period is it not so that you were paid both a salary in relation to your duties as a Special Constable and also you still received an amount of approximately R700-00 per month in relation to your training as a Caprivi trainee, so you were receiving two salaries during that period? Is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is true. When we left here, we agreed that our Caprivi membership will not end just because we were becoming Special Constables, and therefore we were going to continue being paid. But the SAP didn't know that we had received other training, therefore they also paid us as Special Constables. MR WILLS Is it also not so that you were advised by M.Z. Khumalo to ensure that you kept the fact that you had received previous training, a secret from the South African Police instructors at Koeberg? MR MKHIZE He emphasised that we should not reveal that we know anything about military activities. MR WILLS Yes, and then after you had finished your stint as a Special Constable in the Pietermaritzburg area, you received further training in Venda, is that not so and this training mainly consisted of a contra-mobilisation type training and political indoctrination? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. When we went to Venda, we didn't do any military activities. We concentrated mainly on contra-mobilisation activities, like advertising, mobilising and we were also taught on how to prepare public speeches, and how to conduct propaganda and things like rhetoric speeches, but we were mainly taught on how to build an organisation and strengthen it. MR WILLS And what - did this training have a particular organisational bias, did it favour one particular organisation? MR MKHIZE Can you please repeat the question? MR WILLS I will leave that issue. You then returned to Ulundi and it wasn't long thereafter, that you were recruited into the KwaZulu Police, where you were trained as a normal KwaZulu Policeman and you were eventually admitted into the KwaZulu Police in December 1989, is that correct? MR MKHIZE No, it is not so. I was not admitted in December 1989, it was on July, the first, 1989. MR WILLS Yes, sorry ... MACHINE SWITCHED OFF ON RESUMPTION BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE (still under oath) CHAIRPERSON Mr Wills, are you ready to proceed? EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS (continued) Yes, thank you Mr Chairman, we appreciate that indulgence, thank you. Mr Mkhize, before the break we were just about to commence the incidents in which you were involved. Now, the first one you have listed in your affidavit is at paragraph 46, page 96 of the record. That is the attack on ANC members at Gundani bus stop. Can you explain the circumstances of this attack to the Committee members and the members of the public? MR MKHIZE As I have already explained that Prince Gideon Zulu had already issued out an instruction that we should follow the same strategy as was being used by the ANC, by attacking mobs, attack ordinary ANC followers, so that we could fight for support. We agreed even though in his absence and that we did with my group, that we were indeed going to do exactly as it was suggested. I also remember the Gundani bus stop incident. What I would like to explain first is that this is not known publicly as the Gundani bus stop. I have referred to it as Gundani bus stop in my affidavit because there was a joint where that was nearer the bus stop. That is why I am referring to it as the Gundani bus stop, because it is near this shibeen. We knew that the ANC was going to hold a rally. I cannot remember very well whether it was a rally or a conference but we had already gathered information to the effect that they were going to ride busses out of eSikhawini. We verified the information and we learnt that they were going to come back home after that rally or conference. Usually when people were gathering to board busses, they would sing or chant slogans and sing songs. We concluded that we would be able to spot the busses and we wanted to attack them on their way back in the evening. We were hoping that they would delay so that they could come back when it was dark. I was not able to get everybody who would assist in the attack, but the ones that I managed to get hold of included Joyful Mthetwa and he too was a Caprivian, but he was based at Ntseleni that is where he resided. He was part of the attack, because I had already sent Zweli Dhlamini to explain to him that there is an operation in which I wanted him to participate. I have also forgotten to say earlier on that Joyful Mthetwa is one of the people that, whose name was actually raised by Captain Langeni to the fact that I was going to work with him. I agreed to work with him, I didn't have a problem, I knew what kind of a person he was. We then waited for the busses to return and we identified a place where we could lay our ambush. We saw one bus approaching as we were laying in wait for their approach. There were three of us there, it was myself, Joyful Mthetwa, and Victor Buthelezi. I would like to explain something about Victor Buthelezi so that the Commission can get to know him. He was not a Caprivian, but he was a staunch IFP member. He used to be the body guard of Bebebeyela who was a Mayor. He was a fully fledged Policeman based at the eSikhawini police station and then he was assigned to the body guard position to the Mayor. He was a strong Inkatha member. As I have already indicated how we used to communicate with Bebebeyela, there was a time where we could use Victor as our driver in our operations, and that is how he got involved. At the Gundani attack, as I have pointed out, there were three of us and we lay flat on our stomach. I remember I had a hand grenade and also I had an RG5 or something like that. We also had rifles, all of us and we also had pistols, magazines and magazines which were loaded because we wanted to hit as many people in the bus as we could. When this bus approached, which bus we knew and thought was ferrying the people from the rally, and knowing that that was the ANC area, the bus came to a halt and we were laying just next to the bus stop, laying a detachment pattern, such as would be the case in an extended line. Each one of us had their own positions in readiness for firing, deciding as to whether we were going to hit the wheels from the front to the back and vice versa, and everybody would aim a particular position and those who were getting off the bus. That is how we had planned our attack. We did exactly that and I still remember very well that I was the one who was supposed to pull of the hand grenade pin and throw it into the bus so that they could be confused, at which time we would start shooting. That we did. When the bus grounded to a halt, I threw in the hand grenade, it exploded inside and we started shooting. There was a lot of pandemonium in the bus, diesel started leaking, we continued shooting. I have no idea how many people died, I cannot be certain, but yes, we did that. I remember that I was not arrested for that incident and I was not even prosecuted for that, and none among us were prosecuted or asked about the incident, but people, yes, were injured and some died, even though I don't know how many and who they were. I also remember that I reported to Captain Langeni that we had already killed the people and he was excited about that. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Mkhize. I want to now turn to the incident, page 97 of the record, paragraph 47, that involves the attempted murder of Mr Welcome Mtimkhulu. If you could detail to the Committee and members of the public what the circumstances were concerning this incident? MR MKHIZE As I have already explained that Mr Welcome Mtimkhulu was one of the people who were on the hit list because he was rubbing shoulders with the ANC, and there were rumours and suspicions. The local leadership had a way of gathering information, which way I do not know, and therefore I don't want to commit myself as to how they gathered the information. But certainly there was a way of gathering information, there were also things like BSI which we knew that they had files which they used to follow up ANC leaders. I would not want to concentrate on that, because it doesn't involve me. What information was available at the disposal of the local IFP leadership, was that Mr Mtimkhulu had now become dangerous because he was now rubbing shoulders with people like Khumalo, discussing sensitive dockets as already explained. We are now in danger so that what covert operation we were involved in, could now be exposed to people and even our leaders run the risk of being arrested. We were at war because of that, because we wanted to protect the organisation so that it doesn't end up in trouble, and we did not want to lose our fighting members, it would not be a good idea that these people be arrested. That is the reason why Mr Mtimkhulu had to be killed. I also remember that on the day when he was to be killed, we took Bebebeyela's car, Bebebeyela being a Mayor, it was a Ford Meteor, white and small. Victor Buthelezi who was his body guard, drove the car for us. Victor was in the car, myself, Romeo Mbambo and Joyful Mthetwa, Zweli Dhlamini was also in the car. There is also another member who was present at the time of the attack, and that is Pios Ndlovu. He was a Police at the eSikhawini station, also trained at Caprivi. On that day, he was there even though I did not like using him in the operations, because of his behaviour but I remember that day we fetched him at the hostel. There were members from Caprivi who had been trained in the KwaZulu Police. ADV KHAMPEPE My question was when you restricted to the Caprivians, those Policemen who had been trained in Caprivi, in your area? So I take it that Mr Mbanza and Sikanyeso were people who had been trained in Caprivi and were based at eSikhawini police station? MR MKHIZE Yes. There is one thing that I will also like to explain. I explained earlier that I was not supposed to work, not only in the eSikhawini district but also in surrounding areas. eSikhawini as a district incorporated five police stations, Mandeni, Sundumbili, Dambanani, eSikhawini and Msani. There is one other that I am forgetting, it is Mbongolwani. It means I could work with people from either of this five stations. There were Caprivians in this other police stations, particularly in Mandeni there were Caprivians that I could work with, as a person who worked within the District Commandant and because we as the eSikhawini district were the Head of all these other police stations. MR WILLS Just to clear up the issue that the Committee member raised, Mr Mkhize. There were the two members you had mentioned who were at eSikhawini police station, to your knowledge were there other Caprivians at these other police stations, for example at Sundumbili or at Mandeni and at the other police stations that you mentioned, to your knowledge? MR MKHIZE Yes, the Caprivians I knew them very well because we were trained together at Caprivi, but at the time they were now with the Police as I was with the Police as well. MR WILLS Thank you. You then returned to, or after this meeting you returned to eSikhawini as you mentioned in paragraph 29 of your affidavit, page 88 of the record, and you liaised with the local leadership there, who confirmed with you that they had been aware of the fact that this structure was going to be set up, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS You then were called to go back to Ulundi where you met with Major Langeni and he referred you to a certain person by the name of Mr Thomas Buthelezi where you went to get some equipment. Can you just explain what equipment that was? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. Mr Thomas Buthelezi used to reside at Port Dunfort, that is at the time. There was a camp there, actually it is just a big house that had been bought by the IFP and the house was to be used by the Caprivians. Thomas Buthelezi used to reside in the very same house, guarding certain movement properties, he is actually the one to whom I was referred to go and take arms. That I did. I went to fetch the arms, things like bullets and guns. MR WILLS Yes, and you have indicated there that you picked up a stainless steel shotgun without a serial number on it, a 12 pump action and then also an AK47 with ammunition for both of those weapons, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS I just want you to refer briefly, or to cast your mind back to the issue of the Inkatha Youth that you mentioned earlier, that is Mlambo, Mbuyasi and Mkanlipo Matenywa. You indicated that they were already conducting violent operations at that stage. The question I want answered is at that stage you obviously had nothing to do with the operations up until this meeting in Ulundi in 1991, that although they were already operating at that stage, you had nothing to do with them, up until that point in time? MR MKHIZE At the time they were working, I was just doing my ordinary Police work like every other Policeman. I was not involved in violence and politics. MR WILLS Yes, and after this meeting you initially told them of your meeting in Ulundi and you allowed them to utilise the weapons that you had got from Buthelezi, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS But you weren't involved in the planning of the operations, you were just supplying them with arms? Is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes. I just gave them what help I had already received from Fort Dunfort, but I was not yet involved in their attack activities, I was not directly involved, but yes, indeed, I did assist them by giving them guns and bullets. I would follow up as to how the operation was going. MR WILLS I want you to now briefly explain to the Committee about how it came about that you recruited Mr Mbambo. MR MKHIZE As I have already explained that I had already been granted authority to formulate the structure that I was going to use, Mbambo came to eSikhawini after having completed his training in 1991 in December. I was not seeing him for the first time when he arrived at eSikhawini, I had known him before. I used to see him in the company of Siphiwe Mbuyasi. They were very close friends. Siphiwe is well known in Durban as a well known person, a member of Inkatha and he was known to be strongly against the ANC. Those are things that were even publicised. There was also rumour to the effect that he is very close to the Inkatha President. On seeing him being pushed to eSikhawini I then noticed that he is the same person who is always in the company of Siphiwe. I thought that there might be certain political things that he is aware of because at the time we used to call him our oxen, so to speak. I trusted that if I approached him, I would be able to use him. He was physically fit and he used to exercise quite a lot, and he was not drinking any alcohol. He did not often associate with women and that made me conclude that I could use him in the operations. I started one step at a time, asking him when last he saw Siphiwe and he would respond, not knowing what my intention was. I would ask him how Siphiwe was doing in Durban and he finally indicated without realising that he is indeed a staunch Inkatha member. One day I told him that I would visit him at J2 where he was residing, and that on its own made me realise that he was indeed a strong member of Inkatha, because Mbambo used to reside freely in that area because the very same boys that I was talking about, were very strong in the area. Mbambo indeed agreed that I should come and speak to Siphiwe, speak to him. I went to see him and I indicated to him that it is important that we discussed these things. He indicated to me that he knew that there were Israels, he would refer to the Caprivians as Israels. He knew that there were Israels, but his problem is that he didn't know who they were, he cannot identify them. But he has knowledge about their existence and I indicated to him and I am one of the Israels. I told him this is how I want us to work. Even though he started doubting and hesitantly and he wanted to ensure that what I intended doing, had the blessing of authorities. I told him that if I were to disclose authorities to you, you should know that there is no retreat, because if you were to retreat, that will be the end of you. You should involve yourself knowing exactly what is going to happen and one day we arranged, I spoke, telephoned Captain Langeni, indicating to him that I have already roped in someone whom I wanted, he should meet. Working with Mbambo would not be the same as working with Mdwane. Mbambo was a well trained, professional Policeman and he was quite mature. He wanted to know about his future in this whole thing, it would not be the same as working with these other people whom I thought I would work with. Therefore it became necessary that I arrange with Captain Langeni to bring Mbambo along, and Captain Langeni agreed and that we did with Mbambo. Mr Luthuli and M.Z. Khumalo were present when I introduced Mbambo. Prince Gideon Zulu himself was present. I told them that Mbambo is very close to the other one. MR WILLS: The persons you have mentioned, accepted Mr Mbambo as part of this hit squad operation, is that correct? MR MKHIZE They accepted him without reservation and I also promised, I knew that Mbambo had only received Police training and I indicated to them that I was going to train him, show him some things to prepare him so that he could be capable to kill. MR WILLS Yes, and you did in fact give him certain training, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes. We often used to do certain things, we would even go to the beach at Port Dunfort, teaching him many things. MR WILLS Yes, but this was training specifically in the use of certain weapons, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS You also received the assistance of other persons to help you with this hit squad. Can you tell the Committee who those people were? MR MKHIZE It is Mr Dalaqolo Luthuli, he actually promised that he was going to bring me another group of people with whom I was going to work, and he brought me people like Zweli Dhlamini and Israel Hlongwane. They finally arrived to come and assist in the operation. I knew them and I knew Dhlamini because we had been trained together at Caprivi and at the time when I was at Hammersdale, we were in the same IFP movement. Israel Hlongwane himself, I knew him even though he was still younger, but one person whom I knew very well, was Zweli Dhlamini. Israel Hlongwane was in the IFP Youth at the time at Mpumalanga. I just knew him as a person who was holding a position in the IFP Youth at Mpumalanga. So I knew him to be in charge of the Youth. And also, Israel Hlongwane at the time when I was at Koeberg, he was actually one of the people who were trained by the SAP there, but he did not come from the Caprivians group. There were actually two groups. Some people were recruited randomly and there were people who were trained with the intention of posting them to infiltrate certain movements. There were actually people who knew nothing, they just joined the Police Force to be Special Constables and I was trained with him at Koeberg. MR WILLS Now, you have indicated in your affidavit that certain members of the Police, the KwaZulu Police I refer to, were aware of the existence of this operation, this hit squad operation, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Not that they knew, they are the ones that formed this group. MR WILLS Can you expand a bit on that, which Policemen are you referring to? MR MKHIZE Would you please repeat your question, I am confused as to which Policemen you are talking about here? MR WILLS I will rephrase the question. As I understand it, you were at the time of doing these operations and we will be shortly getting into the operations that you conducted, you were also a member of the KwaZulu Police and so was Mr Mbambo a member of the KwaZulu Police. Now, it may seem strange to some persons that you were able to continue with these operations, whilst you were still an ordinary member of the KwaZulu Police. Can you explain how that could happen? MR MKHIZE Now I understand your question. This was possible because there was Brigadier Mzimela was District Commandant at eSikhawini and we, let me just put it this way, Brigadier Mzimela was used to communicate with the local leadership of the IFP at eSikhawini, people like Bebebeyela, etc. He knew about this as I have already explained. He is the one who was covering us up so that we do not land ... (tape ends) ... He placed us in a position where we would be able to carry out our duties. Mbambo for example was deployed to the Investigative Branch and he was not doing this as a part time job, but he was on a full time basis, also manipulating his full time duties. He is the one among the Detectives, who would actually go out and do something, cover something up so that the case disappears and the investigation is discontinued. I was in the Reaction Unit for the reason that I would be able to know where Mbambo and others were going to attack, so that I can stop the Police from going there, I am talking about the patrolling Reaction Police. Even after an attack has been carried out, we would, I would arrive there first, pick up the cartridges so that no trace or any trace of evidence can be left behind. This enabled us to proceed as we did. MR WILLS Thank you. Just to summarise and to finalise the issue of the formation of this hit squad and how the structure actually worked. As I understand it, there was a - you were in fact the person who were in charge of the eSikhawini hit squad and there were certain people that you gave orders to and those persons are amongst others, Mr Mbambo, Mr Hlongwane, Mr Dhlamini, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Now, on top of you there were persons, your direct Commander as I understand your evidence was Captain Langeni. Is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. ADV KHAMPEPE Is it the same Mr Wills as Major Langeni? MR WILLS Yes, thank you Ms Committee member, in the affidavit at the time this was drafted, he was in fact a Major, but at the time that this hit squad was formed, the witness has corrected me, he was in fact a Captain. It is the same person. Thank you. But Major Langeni was part of what I understand a Committee which comprised of M.Z. Khumalo, Mr Luthuli and Prince Gideon Zulu. This Committee had a broader ambit and they organised operations in other areas of the province, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Now, in regard to the information on the targets. This emanated from the local leadership at eSikhawini and the persons that you have mentioned in that regard, were mainly Mrs Mbuyasi and Mayor Bebebeyela. Is that correct? MR MKHIZE I would like to explain here with the permission of the Chairperson. I would like to explain so that this is well understood. MR WILLS Yes, go ahead. MR MKHIZE Our operation was such that the direct instruction that there should be an operation, came from Captain Langeni and I would go to Ulundi and he would also telephone me and I would also call him. We contacted each other now and then. Yes, he was giving me instructions. Some instructions I knew and I expected him of course to give me those instructions because these instructions had already come from the local leadership at eSikhawini. That is the cooperation between the leadership at eSikhawini and those at Ulundi was such that it looked like a wheel. If a person was problematic at eSikhawini it would not be Captain Langeni who would know that he is problematic. It would be the local leadership that would know first that such a person is troublesome and that if such a person died, would the movement or organisation benefit from his death, and therefore the local leadership would be the one who would contact Ulundi and I would in turn receive the instruction direct from Captain Langeni from Ulundi. That is how we used to operate. But, these will be instructions that I would know already because I would engage in conversations with the local leadership, there were good cooperation. Sometimes these were the things that I already knew and expected. MR WILLS Yes. There was a significant event which occurred in February 1992, when the IFP held a rally in eSikhawini and that rally was attacked by ANC members, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Can you tell us what the consequences of this was as regards the instructions you were given after that rally? MR MKHIZE At the time, there was an IFP rally at the Stadium in J2, and as the rally was in progress, two ANC youth came and they opened fire. Everybody fled and some got injured and everybody ran around. The leaders who were there themselves, escaped. Prince Gideon Zulu himself was present at the rally. He too fell at some point and he was infuriated that he could be treated that way. That very same day, in the evening, we had a meeting. He was really angry, asking what our duties are if the ANC is still so strong and still has the capacity to disrupt our meetings. We tried to give reasons and he then told us that we should use the same strategies that were used by the ANC, because the ANC is shooting indiscriminately leadership, followership and everybody and that was very dangerous to the organisation because we are dealing with people here and the issue is support. People would follow the kind of an organisation where there would be protection because protection is exactly what the people want. A person would not join an organisation if he cannot be protected and therefore we should not allow ourselves to target only leadership, we should just attack indiscriminately so that the ANC can realise that they are being beaten and they, by so doing, will weaken and this is how we can gain support. This is how our movement will benefit. We realised on observing this from the political point of view, we noted the sense in his so saying and it was agreed that we are going to adopt the strategy that we should also attack the ANC supporters, shoot them at the bus stops, because there were also demarcations. For example at eMalahleni, if a person who belongs to the IFP would attempt to go there, it would be trouble, because that is an ANC area. An ANC member would not put his foot at J2, because that is an Inkatha stronghold, and therefore we are fighting over support. The idea is that one should at the end of the day, throw in the towel. We undertook to hit everybody, even if it were two people, so that people should flee from the ANC, people should realise that the ANC is not invincible. That is what Prince Gideon Zulu after the meeting, that was disrupted at J2, instructed us to start doing. MR WILLS As I understand things, it wasn't only Gideon Zulu who was aware of this change of strategy, can you tell us who else was? Or who was, sorry let me rephrase that, were any other persons in authority supportive of this change of strategy that was initiated by Prince Gideon Zulu? MR MKHIZE There was Nkosi Mataba from Nyoni, he was a member of the Executive and also a member of the Legislature of the then KwaZulu government. There was also Mrs Mbuyasi and she was not yet a member of Parliament at the time, she was still a leader of Inkatha in this region. Nkosi Mataba was also present and Mrs Mbuyasi and Counsellor Nzuza of J1. MR WILLS Thank you. You had a meeting some time at Klangenani Hall in eSikaweni where certain problematical persons were identified and here I refer you to paragraph 42 and on page 94 of the record. Can you tell the Committee members and members of the public, who some of those persons were? MR MKHIZE The first person I will start by the Police, there was Captain Masinga. At that time he was not yet a Captain. Because Masinga was alleged to be an ANC agent, and the ANC had bought a car for him, we were no longer safe because we could be arrested and attacked. Because Masinga had been given money by the ANC and he had now become an ANC agent, and was supplying information for them. There was also Captain Manzini. He was involved in a lot of issues. He was alleged to have fetched some people who had been trained elsewhere, that rumour was later dispelled and he was alleged to be an ANC member and the ANC also claimed that he was an IFP member. Such that we didn't know which was his status. Eventually we realised that he had tried to be a double agent, working for both the ANC and the IFP. And he also wanted to look trustworthy in the KwaZulu Police. It therefore appeared that he was dangerous, even though he was not a fully fledged ANC member, he was dangerous because if the ANC gave him money, we would be in trouble. Therefore he was also included in the list. Sergeant Khumalo was included in the list as well, Sergeant Alec Khumalo. We knew him as Mlomomanzi. It was alleged that he had taken ten dockets that involved certain operations that had been carried out by the IFP, and he had taken these dockets to the ANC. It was alleged that he had been seen at some meeting with Mr Mtimkhulu and it was suspected that at this meeting, this dockets were discussed, therefore Khumalo was on a plan to get us arrested, and we would be exposed. MR WILLS Just on a point of clarity, the Mr Mtimkhulu that you mentioned there in your evidence, was Mr Welcome Mtimkhulu who was regarded by the eSikhawini community as a prominent ANC person, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. He was also included in the list to be attacked, he was a prominent ANC person. MR WILLS Yes, and I see in your affidavit you mention the fourth Policeman as Sergeant Dhlamini, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is true. MR WILLS Why was he on the list? MR MKHIZE In the first instance he was attacked because he had given information to the Goldstone Commission, that investigated hit squad activities. He had also been seen with certain boys who were alleged to be MK members. He had a lot of contact with ANC persons. I personally saw him at the eSikhawini Police station there was a portrait of Dr M.G. Buthelezi. Dhlamini would look at this portrait or this picture, and swear at it or insult the portrait. We observed this kind of behaviour. Sometimes if there were IFP rallies or maybe the annual celebration at Stanger, we will be told by the Brigadier to use State vehicles to ferry the IFP Women's Brigade to the celebration. When Dhlamini saw us doing this, when he saw State vehicles being used by these women, he would utter obscenities, even to the IFP President. Such behaviour made Dhlamini appear to be strongly against Inkatha, but when I got the instruction that he should be attacked, what I have just explained, was not put forth. The reason that was put forward was that he had become a danger to the organisation, because he had been in contact with the Goldstone Commission, which could expose our covert activities and people could be arrested. That was the danger that was being averted. That was the reason there was this insistence that he should be killed. ADV KHAMPEPE Mr Wills, may I intervene and find out who exactly was advancing the reasons given by Mr Mkhize as making these targets eligible for elimination? MR MKHIZE It was the local leadership of eSikhawini. The reason I am specifically called on Bebebeyela, Mbuyasi and Mataba is because they were the leaders and mainly participated in our meetings, but there were other people like Mrs Mtyali who was a Counsellor at H1, who would be at the meetings and people like Counsellor Mzuzu, (indistinct) Mkhize, they would sometimes attend these meetings. It was not only the three people I have mentioned who were at the meetings. I cannot therefore specifically say who said what, who said this and who said that. It happened a long time ago, but at the meetings people would participate and negotiate and discuss, but I cannot specifically say now who said this person should be killed for this reason, but it came out of the meeting. But the people that I mentioned, used to be at those meetings and ourselves, I would be there, Romeo would also be there. Israel and Zweli wouldn't be there. They were, they could be in the vicinity, but they wouldn't be in the meetings. We sometimes discussed at Mrs Mbuyasi's house or in the Klangelani Hall, but the people I have just mentioned, the three people, were usually the people who were mainly at these meetings. ADV KHAMPEPE Thank you Mr Wills. MR WILLS Thank you Ms Committee member. There were also persons and we will get into the details of why they were on the list, if necessary at a later stage, just to mention the names of persons who were perceived to be members of the ANC, who were listed. Can you mention just the names of those persons? MR MKHIZE Although I cannot remember all of them, but Welcome Mtimkhulu was on the list. Even some of the Youth that were perceived to be a danger, people like Sihle. MR WILLS Sihle who, sorry? MR MKHIZE Sihle Macatini, I am not quite sure, but I think it is Macatini. There are others that we didn't know, there was some person called Mnayi from Mquelisani, I didn't know this person well. I remember that I had asked Zweli to investigate about Mnayi. There were others that I cannot remember correctly, maybe I should have a look at the affidavit. MR WILLS Yes, certainly you can mention the persons you have indicated on the affidavit, on page 94 and 95, that is your paragraph 42. MR MKHIZE I have enumerated them, Masinga, Manzini, Khumalo and Dhlamini, Sihle Macatini who was alleged to be a trained MK member, Themba Mabaso, who was supposed to be a hit man for the ANC, Jerry Msibane, an ANC hit man, Vincent Makwanasi, and Mnayi that I have mentioned from Mquelisani and also Mtanda. His real name was Bafana Jele. MR WILLS You have indicated that in paragraph 43 of your affidavit, on page 95 of the record, that whilst this was a list, it wasn't in fact a physical, written list, it was just the names of people who were mentioned, is that correct? MR MKHIZE That is correct. It was well known that there was no written records, because this could be discovered later, so there was nothing that was written down. MR WILLS I want to now start concentrating on the actual incidents that you were involved in personally. I am going to go through these incidents in the same sequence that you have recorded them in your affidavit. Let us start with the attack on ANC members at the Gundani bus stop which occurs on page 96 of the record, and your paragraph 46. Can you explain to the Committee what happened in that instance, who was with you, who told you to do this, the general circumstances surrounding this attack? MR MKHIZE As I have already explained, there was a time when Prince Gideon Zulu instructed that we should use the ANC strategy, therefore the instances here that we carried out and attacked the followers, because of that reason. There are incidents that happened because some IFP members, three of them, were arrested, Dhlamini Pumatenwua, Ben Mlambo, I don't remember the third person's name. When we sought bail for these members, the Magistrate refused. When this bail application was still being debated at Ntinzeni, there was a certain Mr Willis Nqono who was an ANC leader who stood up and went to the witness box, and said that he requested the Court not to grant this IFP members bail because since they had been detained, there is peace as eSikhawini. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Mkhize, to interrupt. Mr Wills, you said that you were asking about the Gundani bus stop, but I see we are now talking about the attacks to influence bail, which appears on page 106, is this how you want to do it or how Mr Mkhize wants to do it. I think we should just clear it up for record purposes? MR WILLS Yes, thank you very much Mr Chairperson, I was wondering how I should deal with that problem. Mr Mkhize, I think the most efficient way of us leading this evidence is to stick to the format of your affidavit. If you notice the issue of the bail appears later, at in fact page 106 or paragraph 63. If you can just stick to the order in which I ask the questions, I realise this happened a long time ago, but if we can try and stick to the order of your affidavit, I and the Committee members would appreciate that. Just deal with the incident at Gundani's bus stop initially. ADV KHAMPEPE It is on page 96. MR WILLS Yes, it is paragraph 46. MR MKHIZE We can continue. MR WILLS Thank you, this incident occurred shortly after the ANC attack on the meeting at, the rally at eSikhawini is that correct, if you can just take us from there? MR MKHIZE That is why I was explaining the issue at the court, because I don't remember correctly whether to attack the Gundani bus stop was because of the rally incident or because of what I was just explaining now, which concerned Mr Nqono. I don't remember quite correctly the reason, but these incidents to attack busses, attacking mobs, was - I don't really remember why the attack on the Gundani bus stop was carried out. I was just trying to explain that other incident, so that we could understand the circumstances surrounding these attacks, because I don't really remember between the two reasons why the incident at Gundani was carried out. Let me put it to the Commission that I don't quite remember the incident or rather the motivation for the attack at the Gundani bus stop. ADV KHAMPEPE Mr Wills, I think that the reasons have been stated in the applicant's affidavit. If he wants to refresh his mind, let him do so. Or if you could come to his assistance by leading him on certain things, which really are ... MR WILLS Yes, thank you very much Ms Committee member, what I appreciate at this stage, there is and there are as the Committee can see, an enormous amount of incidents at this stage. I wonder if I could be given the opportunity to consult with Mr Mkhize now, it is just about tea time. If I could ask if we could take the tea adjournment at this stage, it would assist greatly, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I see that it is ten to eleven, and to enable you to consult with your client, we will take the tea adjournment and then we will commence - how long will you need Mr Wills? MR WILLS I am sure I will be ready by quarter past eleven, thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We will recommence then at, let's make it twenty past eleven, take half an hour now. COMMISSION ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON Mr Wills, are you ready to proceed? BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE (still under oath) EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS (continued) Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson, we appreciate that indulgence, thank you. Mr Mkhize, before the break we were just about to commence the incidents in which you were involved. Now, the first one you have listed in your affidavit is at paragraph 46, page 96 of the record. That is the attack on ANC members at Gundani bus stop. Can you explain the circumstances of this attack to the Committee members and the members of the public? MR MKHIZE As I have already explained that Prince Gideon Zulu had already issued out an instruction that we should follow the same strategy as was being used by the ANC, by attacking mobs, attack ordinary ANC followers so that we could fight for support. We agreed even though in his absence, and that we did with my group, that we were indeed going to do exactly as it was suggested. I also remember the Gundani bus stop incident. What I would like to explain first, is that this is not known publicly as the Gundani bus stop. I have referred to it as the Fundani bus stop in my affidavit, because there was a joint where that was nearer the bus stop. That is why I am referring to it as the Gundani bus stop because it is near this shibeen. We knew that the ANC was going to hold a rally. I cannot remember very well whether it was a rally or a conference, but we had already gathered information to the effect that they were going to ride busses out of eSikhawini. We verified the information and we learnt that they were going to come back home after that rally or conference. Usually when people were gathering to board busses, they would sing or chant slogans and sing songs and we concluded that we will be able to spot the busses and we wanted to attack them on their way back in the evening. We were hoping that they would delay so that they would come back when it was dark. I was not able to get everybody who would assist in the attack, but the ones that I managed to get hold of included Joyful Mthetwa and he too was a Caprivian, but he was based at Ntseleni, that is where he resided. He was part of the attack because I had already sent Zweli Dhlamini to explain to him that there is an operation in which I wanted him to participate. I have also forgotten to say earlier on that Joyful Mthetwa is one of the people, whose name was actually raised by Captain Langeni to the effect that I was going to work with him. I agreed to work with him, I didn't have a problem, I knew what kind of a person he was. We then waited for the busses to return and we identified a place where we could lay our ambush. We saw one bus approaching as we were laying in wait for their approach. There were three of us there, it was myself, Joyful Mthetwa and Victor Buthelezi. I would like to explain something about Victor Buthelezi so that the Commission can get to know him. He was not a Caprivian, but he was a staunch IFP member. He used to be the body guard of Bebebeyela who was a Mayor. He was a fully fledged Policeman based at the eSikhawini Police station and then he was assigned to the body guard position to the Mayor. He was a strong Inkatha member. As I have already indicated how we used to communicate with Bebebeyela, there was a time where we could use Victor as our driver in our operations and that is how he got involved. At the Gundani attack, as I have pointed out, there were three of us and we lay flat on our stomach. I remember I had a hand grenade and also I had an RG5 or something like that. We also had rifles, all of us and we also had pistols, magazines and magazines which were loaded, because we wanted to hit as many people in the bus as we could. When this bus approached which bus we knew and thought was ferrying the people from the rally, and knowing that that was the ANC area, the bus came to a halt and we were laying just next to the bus stop, laying in a touchment pattern such as would be the case in an extended line. Each one of us had their own positions in readiness for firing, deciding as to whether we were going to hit the wheels from the front or the back, and vice versa, and everybody would aim a particular position and those who were getting off the bus. That is how we have planned our attack. We did exactly that and I still remember very well that I was the one who was supposed to pull off the hand grenade pin and throw it into the bus so that they could be confused at which time we would start shooting. That we did. When the bus grounded to a halt, I threw in the hand grenade, it exploded inside and we started shooting. There was a lot of pandemonium in the bus. Diesel started leaking, we continued shooting. I have no idea how many people died, I cannot be certain but yes, we did that. I remember that I was not arrested for that incident and I was not even prosecuted for that, none among us were prosecuted or asked about the incident, but people, yes, were injured and some died, even though I don't know how many and who they were. I also remember that I reported to Captain Langeni that we had already killed the people and he was excited about that. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Mkhize, I want to now turn to the incident, page 97 of the record, paragraph 47 and that involves the attempted murder of Mr Welcome Mtimkhulu. If you could detail to the Committee and members of the public what the circumstances were concerning this incident. MR MKHIZE As I have already explained that Mr Welcome Mtimkhulu was one of the people who were on the hit list because he was rubbing shoulders with the ANC and there were rumours and suspicions. The local leadership had a way of gathering information, which way I do not know and therefore I don't want to commit myself as to how they gathered the information, but certainly there was a way of gathering information and there were also things like BSI which we knew that they had files which they used to follow up ANC leaders. I would not want to concentrate on that, because it doesn't involve me. What information was available at the disposal of the local IFP leadership, was that Mr Mtimkhulu had now become dangerous because he was now rubbing shoulders with people like Khumalo, discussing sensitive dockets as already explained. We are now in danger so that what covert operations we were involved in, could now be exposed. People, and even our leaders run the risk of being arrested and we were at war because of that, because we wanted to protect the organisation so that it doesn't end up in trouble, and we did not want to lose our fighting members, it would not be a good idea that these people be arrested. That is the reason why Mr Mtimkhulu had to be killed. I also remember that on the day when he was to be killed, we took Bebebeyela's car, Bebebeyela being a Mayor, it was a Ford Meteor, white and small. Victor Buthelezi who was his body guard, drove the car for us. Victor was in the car, myself, Romeo Mbambo and Joyful Mthetwa, Zweli Dhlamini was also in the car. There is also another member who was present at the time of the attack, and that is Pios Ndlovu. He was a Police at the eSikhawini station, also trained at Caprivi. On that day, he was ... (tape ends) ... and we proceeded, but I can also say that during the day I tried to establish as to how he got to work, that was Mr Mtimkhulu and I learnt that he was going to report for work the following day, at ten, the day prior to his attack. I engaged in reconnaissance and also learnt that he was no longer residing at his home, he was now taking occupation at one of the houses that were flats at the upper H2. On following this up, I saw a green Skyline parked on the driveway. By so doing, I confirmed that he was indeed residing in that area. I started looking for an appropriate spot from which we could shoot him, and when we approached H1 together with the guys whose names I have mentioned, I still remember, we entered via H1 and we proceed until we were parked near a house wherein a certain Mr Makwanasi, he was also an ANC member, used to reside, we parked in front of this house. The house is in an area that is a little steep and from that area, one would be able to walk or drive across to the other section. We parked at the H1 section, not where we shot him, so that Victor Buthelezi remained behind the steering wheel. We left the car there and walked on foot to the other side. Mr Mtimkhulu was supposed to drive passed place with a T-junction at which place he would be forced to slow down because he was supposed to turn, proceed straight to the bus stop. His car approached and I must also mention that we laid there early before ten in the morning - evening, and waited until we saw his car reversing and driving towards our direction. And we laid down over the road, so that we could be able to aim and shoot. I still remember very well that two of these people lay behind me as a back up so that in case one of us is injured, they should be able to rescue him and flee with him, and as the car was slowing down, trying to turn to the left, we started opening fire. We opened fire directing the shots to his car. We were not sure who the occupants of the car were, we were not even sure as to whether Mr Mtimkhulu was in the car or not. But we had this belief that it must be Mtimkhulu because on looking at the turn that we were looking at, it corresponded and we concluded that it must be him on his way to work. We then shot at the car and it jerked. We thought the driver must be engaging gears and we concluded he must be hit, we must have hit him. We thought the car would stop, but it engaged in another gear and fled at a high speed. We concluded that we must have failed. There was a gun, a Scorpion which is powerful and P.S. who is small in body structure, we thought that as he was firing, he got empowered by the strong gun, and all the bullets missed the target. The gun jerked up and resulting in him missing the target because of his small body structure. After that, we left the scene, got into the car and we fled. I went back to the Police station where I waited for any sign because when we left, we concluded that perhaps they would go to the Police station to report the incident, but nothing was reported and I could not get any information. I too was not in the position to make enquiries, because I did not want to be exposed. Thereafter it transpired that they went to report at Empangeni Police station where they were told that they could not take up the case, because that was not their jurisdiction. They were referred back to eSikhawini and we hoped that the incident would be reported, so that a docket could be opened, but it never occurred. Later I learnt that Mr Mtimkhulu was not even in the same car that we shot at. It transpired that there were women in the car, and according to information that we gathered, nobody died, but some people were injured. I reported this incident to Captain Langeni, that we tried to assassinate Mr Mtimkhulu but we failed, and we would go for a second attempt, but we did not do the second attempt. We were not arrested for the case, we were not prosecuted therefore. MR WILLS Mr Mkhize, whose car did you use when this operation was conducted? MR MKHIZE We used Mr Bebebeyela's car. He was the Mayor of eSikhawini at the time, it is a white Ford Meteor. MR WILLS Later on that evening, you conducted another attack at Ntokozweni bus stop. It is recorded in your affidavit in paragraph 49, page 99 of the record. Can you relate again to the members of the Committee and members of the public, the circumstances surrounding that attack? MR MKHIZE As I already explained that we tried to weaken up the strength and support of the ANC, so that the community could realise that they were supporting a weak and failing organisation. The Ntokozweni attack therefore was along the same strategy and belief that Mr Mtimkhulu should be attacked and the car took us to some veld near the eSikhawini College of Education. We went into this veld with an aim of attacking eMalahleni. I have indicated to the Commission that eMalahleni was a place well known, that even the cat there is ANC. We knew fully well that workers whom we would encounter at the bus stop, were obviously ANC and on arrival these workers were singing there. They were singing liberation songs. The ANC was very strong in that section, it was a section that had become worrisome to us, we wanted to disrupt that and disrupt their singing so that they could end up not trusting one another. We walked into the bush from the training side, that is the College of Education side. People were waiting at the bus stop on their way to work, and we advanced towards their direction and we took up our positions, and we lay flat at a place, the very same place that is bushy and we started shooting towards their direction. We did not want to shoot a specific person, but we were just shooting following the strategy about which I spoke earlier on. On shooting, they scattered and others retreated and there were some small markets, vegetable and fruit markets in the area and some people took cover behind the market and they shot back. We realised that some of these people were armed and I started using the military tactic and I indicated that we should not be defeated here, because if they defeated us here, they will start attacking our places. On shooting, they continued shooting back and they were able to do so because they were shooting us from cover and we were just hiding in the bush. We realised that this is dangerous, we should retreat and that is what we did. We retreated, I was also trying to avoid losing one of my members. We realised that they were using pistols, we could determine that from the kind of sounds. We were not in a position to shoot from where we were hiding, because it was not safe at all and they were better placed, because they would only shoot when it was safe to do so. We retreated until we fled back and each one of us took a different direction and we ultimately came across Romeo. We could not even see Victor, the car was not there, we could not even see Joyful and everybody just disappeared. It was now difficult for me to go back to see this people, because now that we have retreated, this people must be approaching. Romeo suggested that we go to the Mayor's house. We walked to the Mayor's house. We came across cars and we had to keep hiding the rifles that we were carrying. Some cars were just driving past and we ultimately arrived at the Mayor's house and asked where the people were. The Mayor asked me the same question, and we told him narrating to him that things did not go as planned and he got a fright. Our main worry was that they may have been shot and most probably left laying in the bush. It was a concern that if their corpses were found in the bush, this would create a problem. The Mayor and I decided to get into the car to go and look for them, but at the same time before we got into the car, they arrived and that became better. We concluded that already there were suspicions among the community that the Mayor's car is usually seen ferrying us in particular around, and it was therefore no longer safe to drive around at night, because there was a lot of shooting taking place. We tried to observe the situation for a while, and the Police also waited and we hoped that this would be reported, but nothing was reported at the Police station. It transpired that the ANC members had undertaken not to report anything at the Police station, because such cases are not investigated and no one is arrested, instead Inkatha are found in a better position, and they could not report the matter at Empangeni because Empangeni would refer them back to eSikhawini. I don't know whether some people were hurt or killed during the shooting incident, but I still remember very well that there was a rumour to the effect that there is one who was badly hit in the head. I don't know who he was and how much he was injured. Therefore we were not prosecuted and sentenced for the incident, but it happened exactly as I am explaining it. MR WILLS Was this incident and the incident of the attack of Mr Mtimkhulu investigated by the KwaZulu Police at eSikhawini? MR MKHIZE These incidents were investigated by the people like Romeo who were in the CID Branch, they were investigating such matters. MR WILLS When you say they were investigated by people like Romeo, can you expand on that? MR MKHIZE What I mean is that the jurisdiction in the eSikhawini area, that needed investigation, was investigated by eSikhawini Detectives. Romeo is one of the people who were deployed in the Detective Section, so that he could further the undercover operations that I am talking about. That is why I say these were investigated by people like Romeo. MR WILLS I just want you to exclude from your mind, Romeo's specific position within the hit squad at the moment, and you in your experience as a Policeman emanating from eSikhawini Police station, what would you opinion be as regards the impartiality of the investigations of the KwaZulu Police into attacks on UDF members? MR MKHIZE As I have explained Chairperson, this was a war situation. Everybody was fighting for his organisation. We had to explore all possible and available avenues, we used any strategy. We used investigations, fighting, any other strategy, even trying to arrest our opponents. We used anything that would make our organisation stronger and those were the instructions that we had received to wipe out the ANC. Therefore investigations that we used, there are about two or three ANC dockets that were investigated successfully with regards to ANC members or attacks against ANC members. But we tried by all means that investigations involving ANC members, that is those that we attacked, we tried by all means that they shouldn't be successful. There were however, instances where investigations couldn't be wiped out or where we couldn't cover the clues. We tried everything, even changing statements in the dockets, or even stealing the entire docket. There are dockets that Romeo will bring to Mrs Mbuyasi which will be destroyed in our presence. MR WILLS Yes, I see at the bottom of page, sorry the last sentence in paragraph 51 of your affidavit, on page 100 of the record, that some time later you reported these incidents to Major Langeni in Ulundi, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Mr Mkhize, I want you to go on to the next incident now, and that is the incident concerning the murder of Teliwe Makwanasi. If you can relate the circumstances surrounding that incident to those present. MR MKHIZE This incident of Teliwe Makwanasi, I had received instruction from Captain Langeni. Makwanasi was alleged to be most prominent in smuggling guns and he did not only operate in the eSikhawini area, but he was also influential in the attacks on Inkatha at kwaDlangezwa. He was helping the ANC there. We also discovered that Makwanasi had started the idea of two way communication, that they had walkie talkies that they used when they patrolled in the evening, and they would use this to communicate and they were working in cooperation with the hostels, the (indistinct) and the other hostel where they had their members who had infiltrated the hostels. There were also MK members who used to come periodically to the hostels, that they used to communicate with. Makwanasi was alleged to be in charge of the protection of ANC members, which involved smuggling weapons, but that was the information that we had. The part that I have explained on patrolling in the evenings, communicating through these radio's and we couldn't get hold of these weapons, as a Policeman we tried many times to get these weapons from the hostels, from raids, but we couldn't get the weapons. We would receive information that just before we entered the hostel, Makwanasi would have just left the hostel with the weapons that we are looking for. He had a sky blue car, I think it was a Ford, a station wagon of some kind. This is the car that was alleged to carry weapons that were used to attack IFP members. That way it was decided that he should be removed. There was a term that was used, that he should take the first bus. I remember that on that day, we first met at Mrs Mbuyasi's house, Israel was there, Romeo as well, myself and Zweli Dhlamini. There were three of us when we left and we were driving Mr Bebebeyela's Ford Meteor. There were supposed to be four of us who left the house, but ultimately there were just three of us who left. Our purpose for leaving the house was just reconnaissance, following him, tracking him, finding out where he is, what he is doing. Romeo was driving and I was in the passenger seat. Zweli Dhlamini was in the back seat. In J1 we saw Mr Makwanasi's car and it was reversing from a particular house and we passed and turned and came back, and we followed the car. We followed the car out of J1 and we followed it closely. When we were approaching the eSikhawini crossing, just before we approached the crossing, I concluded that he was going to the hostel, so we decided to overtake him so that he would be following us, and we would watch him from the rear view mirror. This we did and we turned towards Nqobele. It appeared like we were going to the (indistinct) supermarket. Makwanasi did not do as we had expected, he turned into the opposite direction, following the road out of kwaDlangezwa. We then made a u-turn and crossed and followed him. As we were approaching the bridge, there were two lanes on the road, two lanes in the same direction, so that cars could travel on different lanes, but going in the same direction. As we approached the bridge, we decided this was an ideal opportunity, we should hit him there and then. We agreed, all three of us. This was the ideal opportunity to hit him. We followed him closely and we realised that there were two of them in the car. We pretended to overtake the car. When the car was just next to his on the steep, because I was in the passenger seat, I was directly opposite their car. I was nearest to him. We travelled some distance, the two cars next to each other. I then took out my gun, the G3 gun, but I tried to shoot but the gun jammed twice. I then did what is called immediate action drill, trying to see what is wrong, what is jamming the gun. Whilst I was still doing this, Romeo then accelerated. As he did this, our car would be slightly in front of this other car. Romeo made sure that our car was in line with his at the back seat, that is Zweli Dhlamini would be in line with the driver of the other car. Our car was now slightly in front of the other car and Zweli Dhlamini at the back seat was the one who was now directly opposite the driver of the other car. Zweli then took out a .765 and he shot at that driver. He used only one shot and hit him on the head, and the car careered off the road and Romeo accelerated and we sped off. We eventually joined the main road to kwaDlangezwa, proceeding towards Forest Inn. When we approached the road towards Port Dunfort, we entered this road and from Port Dunfort, we returned to eSikhawini. I went to the Police station after delivering the guys I was with, to find out if the incident had been reported. The incident had been reported at the Police station, there were two people in the car, Makwanasi and one other boy. The boy was not hurt, it was only Makwanasi who got shot. I reported this incident to Captain Langeni in Ulundi by telephone. He was very pleased that we had managed to kill this animal. Nobody was charged or convicted for this crime, there were no investigations or prosecution, nothing happened. I returned the car to Bebebeyela and I told him about what we had done. He was also very pleased that we had eventually killed this person. MR WILLS Mr Mkhize, you have heard members of Mr Makwanasi's family in the audience, what have you got to say to them today? MR MKHIZE Yes, there is something I would like to say to them. To the wife of Mr Makwanasi and his children and his entire family, it is very difficult for me to say anything because I understand clearly that even if I were to apologise and beg for their forgiveness on my knees, this will not help them in any way. It will not help them with their children's education, it will not help her pay her rent. I do not wish for any other person to be in my situation now, I request the Makwanasi family to hand me over to God, because I have accepted that whatever happens to me is okay. What I did, the people I killed, I thought I did this with clear objectives. I request that one day they should find it in their hearts to forgive me. I don't even want to suggest that the death of Mr Makwanasi was because of political reasons, because the death of a person cannot be equated to politics. The death of a person or the killing of somebody is not acceptable for whatever reason. I understand fully what I have done to the Makwanasi family, something they will never forget. But I am thankful that I have been able to see the light through the Grace of God. What I am saying today or what I am explaining here is not just because I want to be granted amnesty, it is also because when I die, I wish to have said everything. I am grateful that I have accepted the Lord and realised that my life previously was not acceptable, it was criminal. I apologise entirely, with all my heart to the Makwanasi family, understanding the pain that I brought with the actions that I carried out. MR WILLS Mr Mkhize, just before we move off that incident, I notice that at paragraph 55 in your affidavit, page 100 of the record, you state that you received a direct instruction from Major Langeni in order to carry out this assassination of Mr Makwanasi. Is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR WILLS IS it also correct that and referring to paragraph 54, that you had a discussion at Mrs Mbuyasi's house with Mrs Mbuyasi and Israel before this incident and that the persons involved in that discussion were fully aware of the activity that you were about to engage in? MR MKHIZE Yes, they knew very well. MR WILLS And you have referred on a number of occasions in the incidents where you used Mayor Bebebeyela's car, can you tell the Committee whether or not whether he was aware of the purposes for which you were using his car? MR MKHIZE Yes, he was aware. Bebebeyela was part of the entire activities that we conducted. MR WILLS Mr Mkhize, I want to turn now to the next incident, which commences at paragraph 56 of your affidavit, page 102 of the record. It concerns the murder of Naftha Nqumalo. ADV MOTATA Mr Wills, may I just interpose here? Just to follow up on the question you asked about Bebebeyela's car. What I want to know from you Mr Mkhize, did you use Bebebeyela's car with his consent, in other words did he give you the car to use in these attacks you have enumerated? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. He gave us permission to use the car. ADV MOTATA Thank you Mr Wills. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Committee member. Can you again explain to the Committee members and the members of the public, the circumstances surrounding your involvement and the involvement of others in the murder of Naftha Nqumalo? MR MKHIZE In this incident, as I have already explained that even though instructions came from Captain Langeni, it was mostly things that I knew of because we were on good terms and cooperated with the local leadership of the IFP at eSikhawini. I knew about this things, but it was not policy that I should know why the person was being killed. My job was to get instructions from Captain Langeni to kill someone. It happened by chance sometimes that I knew the reasons for killing a person. This happened because of the good cooperation between myself and the local leadership of the IFP at eSikhawini. There was an allegation that Mr Nqumalo was involved in mobilising in the factories. I think he worked at a certain factory in Richards Bay. There were certain people in these factories who were IFP members, who brought it to the attention of the IFP leadership at eSikhawini that Mr Nqumalo was very active in opposing the IFP and the kwaZulu Police in the factories where he worked. The greatest problem about him was that he was very persuasive and people listened to him. When he mobilised against the IFP, he could sway the people that he was talking to, he could convince them to hate the IFP. He was reportedly very good at mobilising. There was also an allegation that Mr Nqumalo was highly regarded in the ANC and was earmarked to contest a Mayoral position. If this happened, and he got the support, this would overthrow Mr Bebebeyela. This could be problematic for the organisation because if Bebebeyela was no longer in authority, our organisation would have been harmed. If I can make an example, things like the news of Klangelani Hall, that was not granted to the ANC, they could not use that hall because Bebebeyela was in position, in authority. The ANC could not even hold gatherings because of this, so if Mr Bebebeyela lost his position, the IFP would be harmed. If Mr Nqumalo was in a position to contest this position with Mr Bebebeyela and win over Bebebeyela such that the ANC will then be in control of the area, the ANC would use that opportunity to wipe out the IFP because they would have the authority and therefore the power to wipe out the IFP. That was the reason why Nqumalo was targeted to be killed. I remember that on the day we were using Mr Bebebeyela's Ford Meteor. I remember that I was driving the car. Victor was with me, Romeo was also present. I had fetched him from a course at aMatikulu. Zweli Dhlamini was also there. Israel as well. When we left we were just intending to do reconnaissance, not really to hit him on that day, but we had our weapons with us. But when we passed his house, we saw him coming from the house, he was with certain people, approaching the gate. We then passed the house. Who knew him was Victor Buthelezi, Mr Bebebeyela's body guard. He was the person who was going to point him out to us. When he advanced to - we proceeded on. I cannot remember quite well how many people were in his company, three or four, I cannot remember, it is quite long. He was in the company of males. He looked like a person who was walking them to the gate after a short visit to his home. We drove passed and we parked at a dust road. We put off the car to look around, it was beginning to get dark, dusky. We came back on foot. It is quite a short distance. On walking back, we walked back at the time when they were actually parting, that is why I am saying he was actually walking them to the gate after a visit. We have now decided to make use of this opportunity and on getting nearer to them, Victor pointed him out to us. We shot him and he dropped dead, and we fled. I took the steering wheel and on starting the car, I saw a KZP bakkie leaving at a high speed. Isn't it gunfires had been heard already. I drove without having turned on my headlights and this KZP van followed us and we fled right up to Mkoboza with the same people in my company. I drove further down, taking the eMalahleni road, and we were still being pursued by this KZP van. I took my left at Mazankala, approaching the road that was connecting us to kwaDlangezwa. The very same KZP van was pursuing us. We decided to stop and speak to the Police and they indicated some people in the car, some people in the car in which we were travelling, indicated that if we did that, we would be arrested, because in the very same Police Force, there were ANC Police people who were planted to work within the Police Force and we didn't know what the situation would be like if we stopped. Israel suggested that we should just shoot at them, but we hesitated. We didn't think of that as a good idea and we exchanged ideas as we were fleeing and the van was right at our heels. They apparently noticed that we are the ones that opened fire, and I approached the crossing at kwaDlangezwa and the van was still at our heels. We took the Empangeni road, still being pursued and we decided that we should overtake the cars ahead of us, and I would turn off my headlamps and proceed overtaking, so that the ones pursuing us, should not see when we indicate and overtake. I just turned off my headlamps, overtook some cars and proceeded on. We arrived at some place, I am not sure whether it is Bassonia, and there is a road there that proceeds towards Ndebayake and we took a dusty road at some sugar plantation and the van that was pursuing us, proceeded on and we concluded that we have actually managed to get away. We took back the correct registration numbers for the vehicle in which we were travelling and we took out several things, like guns and hand grenades and we suggested that people like Zweli should walk on foot. We decided that there is no way that we can be found now that we are travelling in the car with its correct registration number. All the guns and arms that we had, had been off loaded from the car and we remained with our licensed firearm. The group that were left there, walked on foot towards Nqwelezwani, heading for M.R. Mkhize who was in charge of the Inkatha Offices at Empangeni. Myself and Romeo stayed behind and we were to drive back. I had to take Romeo back to (indistinct), and the remaining group proceeded on with the guns that we left behind, and we drove back to eSikhawini. I went to the Police station and I learnt that the incident had already been reported at the Police station. If I still remember very well, I arrived at the same time as the hearse was arriving to pick up the corpse. I reported to my authorities that we have already done it, they were happy that we had finally eliminated Naftha Nqumalo. We were not charged, nor arrested, nor prosecuted for the incident. The case just disappeared, just like that, to date. ADV KHAMPEPE Mr Wills, may I intervene before you proceed to the next incident. Mr Mkhize in your affidavit you stated that Constable Lucky Mbandwa also participated in this operation. Is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. He was a Special Constable Mbandwa. That is Lucky Mbandwa. He originally came from kwaMakutha, he was a very staunch IFP member. It might as well be now that I am explaining, I might have forgotten about him, but he was present as well. ADV KHAMPEPE Now, what I want to know is were any IFP members of Policemen closely associated with the IFP, free to participate in such covert operations? MR MKHIZE What I can say is that as I have already explained the formation of the hit squad, there was a time where I was given permission to recruit people who were not necessarily Caprivians. In fact I am the one who suggested that I use people who were not Caprivians. There were people who were within the Police Force, who were not Caprivians and who had not been members of the hit squad on its formation, but who joined this formation later, people like Victor Buthelezi who was a Constable at the Police. He was not trained for anything else except for the Police Force. People like Constable Lucky Mbandwa, people such as those were not Caprivians, but we did not form the hit squad around them. As time went on, they joined in resulting from necessity and the need for manpower. We trusted such people on realising on how committed they were to fighting rather for the movement and this was necessitated by the tension and the fight that was going on between the ANC and the IFP and these was growing on a daily basis, where people were dying and houses were set alight. There was therefore a need for a greater manpower to come and help out. Therefore I agree that there were members who ended up joining the operations resulting from their honesty and trustworthiness. But I cannot lie here and say I also took them like Romeo, to introduce them to our authorities because they did not demand that I do that. Romeo is a special case, because he is the one who insisted to be introduced to the authorities, he wanted guarantee as to his security. I therefore concluded that these people stayed with Bebebeyela, the Mayor on a daily basis and he must have known him. ADV KHAMPEPE Mr Mkhize, let me ask you a short question and hopefully you will give me a short answer. When he participated in this operation, was he a member of your hit squad, had he been recruited by you? MR MKHIZE Are you referring to Victor Buthelezi? ADV KHAMPEPE No, I am referring to this Constable or Special Constable Lucky Mbandwa. MR MKHIZE It is very difficult to explain this Chairperson, because Lucky was recruited at the Mayor's place. ADV KHAMPEPE I am going to interrupt you. I want to know at the time of the commission of this murder, was he a member of your hit squad? MR MKHIZE No, he was not a member of the hit squad, he had just come in that day. Maybe he will be implicated in later operations, but he was not necessarily a member of the hit squad at the time. Maybe there is one or two incidents where he will be later implicated. ADV KHAMPEPE Thank you Mr Mkhize, I only wanted to ascertain that fact, and that fact only. Thank you. MR WILLS Mr Mkhize, you report on page 104 of the record, paragraph 59 about some attacks on ANC areas. You have indicated in your testimony that eSikhawini was in fact divided up into areas, certain areas supported the IFP and certain areas supported the ANC. Now, can you just expand and let the Committee members know which these areas are. For example, if you can tell us the areas of eSikhawini, the various sections, which political parties were those areas generally, which supporters lived in those areas, the supporters of which political party lived in the specific areas. MR MKHIZE Mr Chairperson, I would not refer to section to section because in one particular section, you would not necessarily find the whole ANC or IFP. One section would for example be divided by a stream and people on this side of the stream would belong to the ANC, people on the other side, belonging to another movement. For example eMalahleni, which is H2 section, it is so big and it moves on, proceeding to D2 and covers the area towards the garage, proceeding towards Gundani. That is still H2, but it is not necessarily the whole area that was dominated by the ANC, there would be specific areas. There would be demarcations where we knew the ANC is strong, not necessarily the entire section. MR WILLS The short of your evidence is that the township was divided up into geographical areas, and certain geographical areas were ANC strongholds, and other geographical areas were IFP strongholds. It wasn't like I think, in other areas of South Africa where members of differing political persuasions, live altogether in one area. Is my understanding correct? MR MKHIZE There were times when such a situation prevailed at eSikhawini but as time went on, as the war proceeded or the fighting went on, houses were burnt down. For example in J2, there were initially ANC members in that area, but houses were burnt down and they were resultantly driven out. They left and Inkatha remained behind. The few who remained, realised that they too had to leave. It ended up being clean, that is the area and by so saying, this is suggestive of the fact that only one organisation was now remaining behind in the area, so that at the end of the day you would have only one organisation remaining behind. This is how it happened. MR WILLS So when, and now I am referring to paragraph 59, when Mr Xele from Dlanguba Reserve arrived with the white Husky, the ZG Husky, with ammunition and you attacked certain areas, you were aware at that stage that these areas were in fact dominated by ANC persons, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct, we attacked places about which we knew, belonged to the ANC. MR WILLS Did, I want you to go through this incident which is detailed in paragraph 60 of your affidavit, page 104 of the record, where you went to Msilgwenya school. Am I correct in assuming that that school was indeed in an ANC area? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS I am sorry Mr Chairperson, I am getting rather a lot of distortion through my headphones, I will try and proceed, I think it is the rain. CHAIRPERSON Yes, mine seems to be not too bad at the moment, but if it becomes too much of a problem, Mr Wills, just let me know and we can see if it can be improved. MR WILLS All right, I will try and proceed. I think I am just going to take you through this evidence very quickly, and you can confirm what you have said in the report. You basically drove in this Husky to the school, and on the way you identified two males, who were in the vicinity of the school, and you gave Mr Hlongwane the instruction to shoot these two males, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS And you later shouted out to Mr Hlongwane that another person who you had seen coming from the school, that that person should take the first bus, is that correct? And that person was indeed killed by Mr Hlongwane, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Why did you do this? MR MKHIZE I have already explained Mr Chairperson. We knew that this was the ANC area. Nobody would have thought that there were Inkatha people here, driving in the Husky that was brought to us by Xele, being sent by M.Z. Khumalo. And therefore we were in that mission as I have already explained, our aim was to attack ANC strongholds so that the ANC should come to realise that they are not the strongest in the area. That is why I am explaining that we had to attack these areas, so that the ANC can come to realise that they are not the strongest, we were basically the same strategy as the ANC. MR WILLS Yes, now, is it not so as you say in your affidavit that you got that vehicle, that ZG Husky, because you had made complaints to the persons who were in authority, that you didn't have the transport which you needed to conduct these attacks and it was as a result of that that Mr Xele brought the ZG Husky, which was given to you to utilise, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. We had complained because the very same vehicle that we were using, belonging to Bebebeyela was not always available. Sometimes he would use it and his wife as a nurse, would use the Skyline and as a result we would not be able to use it when we wanted to. ADV KHAMPEPE Mr Wills, I am probably not on the same wave length as Mr Mkhize because the divulged purpose which has been stated in his affidavit, was that the aim then was to shoot at ANC members whilst they were dispersing from the meeting. I thought the reason why you asked why he shot at the two persons and also the other person who was told to take the first bus, was to try and reconcile the two intentions, whereas initially the intention was to attack the ANC members, whilst dispersing from the meeting. He then gave instructions which were different from the initial or original intention of going to that school. I don't know whether I really understood your question to be trying to elicit that kind of evidence. MR WILLS Thank you Ms Committee member. Possibly I can ask for clarification. It is clear as you say in your affidavit, that your initial intention was to wait at that meeting and to wait for the persons to disperse from that meeting, and then to shoot at those people, is that not so? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. That is what I have stated in my affidavit. MR WILLS But what happened, please Mr Mkhize, if you can just let me finish. What happened in fact is that on the way to the meeting, you shot or your group killed two people, in fact Mr Hlongwane was the person who pulled the trigger and then later on, before the people even dispersed from the meeting, a third person was killed, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Now, the question that concerns the Committee member is why did you deviate from that initial purpose? MR MKHIZE I would like to explain something here. In our planning there are things such as alternatives. An alternative therefore would be a plan in place so that if plan A fails, plan B should be used. Secondly there are certain things which would happen unexpectedly, so that whatever strategy could be adopted at the time, would suffice. On that day, yes our aim was to attack them as they were leaving the meeting, because we had already heard that there would be a meeting. These first two people who were shot by Israel following my instruction, are not near, anywhere near the meeting. They were a distance away from the meeting, but in the same section, which section we knew had ANC followers. That is the first thing I would like to say. We have not yet arrived at the meeting to which we were headed. We shot these people knowing that they were ANC members, because they were walking freely around the area at that time. That was not a planned intention, and we knew that the firing of the guns, shooting at these two people, could not be picked up by the people to which we were going. We were just shooting, knowing that this is an ANC area. What disrupted the meeting, or our plan however, is that on arriving at Mzingwena entrance point, we were sitting inside the Husky, quiet. There was not even an indication that a meeting was going on. There was absolutely nothing to the effect that there was a meeting in that school. We started doubting as to whether the meeting was indeed going on or not, but it was also equally difficult to get off the Husky because we could be easily identified if we went out to verify the progression of the meeting. As we were sitting there, we concluded that there was no meeting, we must have gathered wrong information. There came this person, the third person and Israel was a distance from us. I cannot remember very well who shouted at who, saying first bus. By that time, we had become disillusioned, knowing of course that that was the ANC area and we had come to attack the ANC members following the reasons that I have enumerated earlier, and we just decided not to hit people as they were dispersing, and on shooting at this person, we got back into the car and left. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Wills, if I could just ask a question on this. Mr Mkhize, you made it quite clear that there were areas which were either ANC or UDF controlled and other areas which were IFP controlled. What would be the position if somebody let's say just for an example, a supporter of the IFP who lived in an area wanted to visit a friend who lived in another area, would he and in between the two areas, was an ANC controlled area, would he not walk through that ANC area to go and visit his friend, or let's say to go to church if it is in another area, or to go to the store or whatever? Would you never get in your view, a person, an IFP person in an ANC area for an innocent purpose? MR MKHIZE Mr Chairperson, I can tell you for sure no ANC member would set his foot in an Inkatha stronghold. People would not dare take that chance and IFP leaders would equally not dare take a chance by stepping on forbidden territory. People such as Lucky Mbuyasi would not even wait for dusk to fall, people would be hit in broad daylight, because the fighting situation was so tense, such that people would not take that risk. That would give us assurance that if we proceeded this way, we would be safe. Shops were such that this shop belongs to the ANC person and that one to the IFP person. I am not talking about shops only here, I am also talking about shibeens. If a person wanted to go to a shibeen, a person would not dare go to a wrong shibeen, because it was well known that a particular shibeen is patronaged by people belonging to a particular organisation. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mkhize, from that are you also implying or was it also your view that everybody who lived within a particular area, was a supporter of the organisation that was in control of that area or were there people who had no interest in politics and were neither ANC nor IFP supporters, but were let's say apolitical? MR MKHIZE Mr Chairman, in our townships the situation is as follows: J2 for example is known to be an IFP area. There is nobody who resides in that area who would not take out or pay a certain amount towards the IFP. People would pay and donate, people who were in charge of protecting the community, would be paid. Monies would be donated to buy guns and (indistinct), (indistinct) to strengthen the people and therefore anybody who resided in that section belonging to the organisation, would be expected to pay these monies, even though it would be against his or her will, but such a person would pay these monies and attend meetings, because if a person did not do that, such a person would be attacked and ex-communicated. So that such a person would be expected to pay the money to maintain the boys who were protecting the community, that was the kind of life that prevailed. That is why there was this assurance that people in a particular area belonged to a particular organisation. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV KHAMPEPE Mr Mkhize, what you are basically saying is that it was very difficult for persons to be apolitical, because you have previously stated that not even dogs and cats could not be political, so the situation was that intense in terms of politics, that everyone was compelled to choose between the two sides? MR MKHIZE Mr Chair, this is well put, you had to join either the IFP or the ANC. There is no, any other party, even the National Party, there is only two. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Wills, when it is convenient we will take the lunch adjournment, because I see it is one o'clock. MR WILLS Yes, Mr Chairperson, I will be two minutes hopefully with this. CHAIRPERSON Yes, if we can then conclude that, then we can take the lunch adjournment. MR WILLS Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mkhize, I see that in paragraph 61 of your affidavit you report that after this incident, you went back to Mrs Mbuyasi and informed her of these incidents and that later you reported the matter to Major Langeni, who confirmed that this Xele was indeed sent by him and M.Z. Khumalo for the purposes that he indicated, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS And just to complete these attacks, paragraph 62 you indicate that a few days later, Romeo picked you up in the same vehicle and you, Israel and Zweli went and attacked the ANC H2 section, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson, this is a convenient time for me before I move on to the next incident. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Wills, we will now take the lunch adjournment. COMMISSION ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Wills, you may proceed. BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE (still under oath) EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS (continued) Thank you Mr Committee member. Mr Mkhize, I want to turn now to discuss the incident on page 106 of the record, that is your paragraph 63. You have indicated in this paragraph, that your members of your syndicate were arrested, and by that you later refer to those persons being Mkanlipa Matenywa, Ben Mlambo and Lucky Mbuyasi. What were they arrested for? MR MKHIZE They were arrested for attacking the house of Mr Bekhi Ntuli. MR WILLS Do you know if they did in fact participate in that attack? CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Wills, before you proceed, just one point on clarity. Mr Mkhize, in your affidavit you say it was Lucky Mbuyasi that was arrested, is that Lucky Mbuyasi or Lucky Mbandwa? MR MKHIZE I am speaking about Lucky Mbuyasi now. MR WILLS Just to be certain, that is a person distinct from the Lucky Mbandwa who was a member of the kwaZulu Police, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, these are different persons. MR WILLS Yes, and Lucky Mbuyasi is in fact related to the Mrs Mbuyasi that you have been referring to throughout your evidence? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is her son. MR WILLS And just for clarity, Lucky Mbuyasi is now deceased, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Now, what I wanted to know is, you have indicated these people were arrested because it was alleged that they were involved in the attack on Mr Bekhi Ntuli's house. My question is, do you know whether in fact they were involved in this attack, which I think occurred if my memory serves me well, on the 26th of August, 1992? MR MKHIZE Yes, I am sure that they carried out the attack. MR WILLS Now, were you involved in any way in planning this attack? MR MKHIZE I was not directly involved in the planning of the attack, but I know about what happened. MR WILLS Can you just briefly say what happened in that attack? MR MKHIZE They attacked the house of Mr Bekhi Ntuli. It appears as if when they got there, they realised that the situation was quite tense. I am not sure how it happened, but when they entered the kitchen or rather when they shot at him through the kitchen, and they entered into the kitchen, and somehow he appeared as if he had been hit, it appeared that they were exchanging fire with Mr Ntuli. I don't know how he made it appear as if he had been hit, so when they got into the kitchen, he threw a hand grenade at them. The situation was quite terrible because they were severely attacked. They were with Makwanasi, a Special Constable who was a staunch member of the IFP and he was also a guard at Mrs Mbuyasi's house. That is where he was posted. He resided at the house opposite Mrs Mbuyasi's house. It was Special Constable Makwanasi who helped the three, he rolled them out of the house and went to report that these boys had been hit. They were taken in Mrs Mbuyasi's car, and she was also present. It became clear that they wouldn't be taken to the Mbulezani hospital because after this incident, the ANC would know that they will be taken to Mbulezani hospital and will wait for them there. It was decided that they should be taken to the Eshowe hospital. When they contacted Nkosi Mataba, I was then involved in that way. Mataba was asked to claim that these boys had been sent to him and they got injured at Nyoni in his area of jurisdiction, and not eSikhawini. That was to be used as an alibi when investigations occurred. Mr Ntuli did report that the boys were injured at his house. Eventually an Investigator was called in from Durban and investigations ensued and the boys were eventually arrested. MR WILLS Yes, just to confirm, it wasn't as a result of the kwaZulu Police's investigations that these people were arrested, it was as a result of an independent investigation from the South African Police in Durban, that resulted in the arrest of these three, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is the truth. The ANC said that this shouldn't be investigated in eSikhawini, but it was investigated by Captain Somario from Durban. That is why they could be charged, arrested and had to set bail. It wasn't investigated by the kwaZulu Police. MR WILLS Yes, and you have indicated that a certain Mr Willis Nkunu gave testimony at the bail application of these boys, that since they have been arrested, things had quieten down considerably in eSikhawini. As a result of that, you got involved with Victor Buthelezi, Israel Hlongwane, Romeo Mbambo, Zweli Dhlamini in attacks in eSikhawini which would prove that Mr Willis Nkunu's testimony was without substance, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is true. MR WILLS This decision to attack Mr Willis Nkunu's testimony, that was taken as a result of a broader discussion, it wasn't you alone who took that decision, please can you explain how that decision was arrived at and the parties to that decision? MR MKHIZE At the time we were seeking bail for these three boys, and we were still going to prepare for the trial, we spent quite a long time in the Ntinzeni court, trying to arrange bail. Mr Willis Nkunu then testified that on behalf of the community of eSikhawini, he requested these boys shouldn't be granted bail, because since they had been arrested, the killing of people had abated, there was peace in the area ... (tape ends) ... Bebebeyela and the others that I have already mentioned. Romeo Khumalo was also in that meeting. We then tried to find a way of refuting these claims made by Mr Nkuna, because what he had said, seemed to be true, the area was quiet. We then planned that we should attack ANC areas, attack the people there, kill them so that if we started attacking the ANC, killing them, the CR at the Police station would increase, we would use that CR to use it to apply for bail. We would say from this date, since these boys had been in prison or had been in custody, this is the number of people who have died. Who has killed these people, because the people who are claimed to be responsible, are in custody? This would then be in direct opposition of Mr Nkunu's testimony. We then did this indiscriminately. Because we had to raise the CR number quickly, we started shooting or killing people in large numbers, so that we could get bail for these boys. MR WILLS Was there a person who professed at that stage to be a lawyer party to this discussion, if so, what was his name or who was advising on the strategy? MR MKHIZE Yes, there was. There was Mr Gabela who had a house an Nyoni under Nkosi Mataba's district. He usually wore a black robe and represented people in court, although eventually it emerged that he was never a qualified or professional Attorney. MR WILLS It transpired that this person, Mr Gabela was in fact tried by the Magistrate's court at Ntinzeni and found, and convicted under provisions of the Attorney's Act for not being a lawyer, that is the case, not so? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR WILLS You then - I want to turn now to the incident that you referred to in paragraph 65, page 107 of the record, that involves the action that you took as a result of the incident where Constable Dunca was killed and Constable MacBeth Ngubane was seriously injured. I am going to go through this incident relatively quickly, or attempt to. My understanding is that you were present when Constable Dunca was killed, in fact he was in your arms when he died, is that correct? MR MKHIZE He died in my arms. MR WILLS And you conducted certain investigations and you got the information that a certain person whose code name, and MK person, by the name of Mbanda was in fact responsible for this attack? Is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. We all knew in the syndicate that the ZP who were attacked at J1, were attacked mainly by a person known as Mbanda who was trained by MK and who used to infiltrate schools and posed as a student and mobilised the youth and mobilised attacks against ANC congress enemies. We knew this person by the name of Mbanda. He was not only responsible for attacking Dunca. There are other incidents at J1, that occurred as I have explained in my affidavit. Incidents like that of Constable MacBeth Ngubane, all those who had been attacked in J1. MR WILLS And you say in your affidavit that as a result of that incident where Constable Dunca was killed, you wanted to take some action and so you discussed a plan of action with Mrs Mbuyasi and Chief Mataba. I am referring to page, your affidavit page 36 and page 108 of the record. Do you recall that? MR MKHIZE Yes, I remember. MR WILLS What was decided at that meeting, what action was decided upon, that is arising out of the meeting between yourselves and Mrs Mbuyasi and Chief Mataba? MR MKHIZE Let me explain this a bit. Our problem was that the ANC was still strong, if they could afford to attack a ZP van, like Constable Ngubane was shot whilst he was inside a van. (Indistinct) was also attacked in full uniform at J1. He is today crippled. Dunca was also attacked in J1, he is now deceased. We were then forced to do something about this, not necessarily because of retaliation purposes, but because there was political fighting. It had become clear that if Police could be attacked or defeated by the ANC, it meant that at the end the Police station would be mainly manned by ANC Policemen. Therefore it became clear that we were going to lose our support, even from the Police. As I have mentioned that the most important thing that we were fighting over was support. This necessitated that we should take steps to make sure that these attacks on Police people are stopped. We discovered that people at J1 were reluctant to give information on who was killing these Police, nobody was willing to talk to the Police. No one would come forward and give information on the death or the attack on Policemen. It became clear to us that these people were all ANC supporters, so we decided to take action to stop these attacks on Police. We then agreed in the meeting that if the ANC attacks a Policeman, we would then go directly to that area where the Policeman was attacked, and kill or shoot everybody in the area, to send a message to the ANC that they are being hit because they had attacked a Policeman. We were wanting to stop this practise. We wanted the ANC to know that if they attack a Policeman, people will die. That is why when Constable Dunca was killed, I decided to collect my group and go to the area where he was killed, and attack those people. MR WILLS Yes, and indeed you did that and together with you was Mr Mbambo, Mr Hlongwane, Mr Dhlamini and Siobonga Mbuyasi and as I understand, that person is the older brother of Lucky Mbuyasi, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, we did. Yes, the others that you haven't mentioned, Constable Mthetwa. It may be I also didn't mention them in the affidavit, but they were there. MR WILLS Yes, you have indeed mentioned Mthetwa in the affidavit. You then conducted an attack with these people in J1 section. When you were in fact driving a kwaZulu Police van and you have listed that as ZP777, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, I was driving the car. MR WILLS And you have indicated that as a result of that attack, you came to the knowledge that a person by the name, a female by the name of Mathilda was killed and other people were injured? MR MKHIZE Yes. I am not sure of all the people who were effected or hit in that area, but a lot of them or a lot of people were hit. We were not really specific on who we attacked, but we attacked at random. I am however, sure that Mathilda was killed in that incident. There are others who have also been hit and got injured but did not die. MR WILLS You then say that you picked up your men, you were the driver of the vehicle and you went back to Mrs Mbuyasi's house where you found her together with the Chief and you must be, I presume, referring to Chief Mataba and you were questioned about what kind of firearms you were using, because the gunshots were heard from Mrs Mbuyasi's house? And then you later reported that to Major Langeni, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR WILLS And at the same time when reporting that to Major Langeni, you were requesting more ammunition because you were running out of ammunition? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR WILLS As a result of the request for more ammunition, you got more ammunition? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS You have never been charged or prosecuted for this incident? MR MKHIZE No. MR WILLS I want to turn now to the incident involving the kidnapping and murder of Nathi Gomedi, which starts at your paragraph 68 at the bottom of page 108 of the record. You have indicated in your affidavit, the circumstances surrounding why Nathi Gomedi was isolated as a target and it is very briefly and I am going to summarise your affidavit very briefly, it relates to the fact that it was believed by you that he was the main principle in an attempt to fabricate charges against Mr Mbambo, car theft charges with the result that Mr Mbambo could well have been arrested? Is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, it is so. MR WILLS And as a result of this, you and Mr Mbambo attended a meeting at Prince Gideon Zulu's house in Ulundi where this issue was discussed, not so? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR WILLS Can you tell us who was at that meeting and what decision was taken at that meeting? MR MKHIZE It wasn't a formal meeting as such. The people who were present were Prince Gideon Zulu and his son, I have forgotten his name, and Mhlanduna, Mr Dalaqolo Luthuli, and Romeo and myself. There was also Prince Gideon's driver, Mr Nyaosa, we held this meeting on the front lawn on Prince Gideon Zulu's house. MR WILLS What was decided at the meeting? MR MKHIZE The decision was that Nathi Gomedi should be killed immediately. It was not only Nathi whom was decided that he should be killed, but a certain Mr Khumalo from Eshowe was also mentioned, as well as a security guard who worked at the Eshowe hospital, although I forget his name. MR WILLS So now, who made this decision, who issues, you talk about a decision, your affidavit speaks of Prince Gideon saying that you should kill this person, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is the truth. MR WILLS And that related to both the male nurse by the name of Khumalo and also Nathi Gomedi? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so, the three. MR WILLS Now, as I understand your evidence and you have also given evidence to this effect before Judge Van der Reiden in the trial on this matter, you were provided with a kwaZulu government vehicle, an Opel Monza, to be utilized for this purpose, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS This vehicle was provided from the Chief Minister's department? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Who gave you the keys for this vehicle? MR MKHIZE Mr Robert Mzimela who was the Secretary of the Legislature for the kwaZulu government at the time. MR WILLS Yes, now is it not so that you had this vehicle for a number of days and you conducted quite an extensive amount of mileage in this vehicle, I think if my memory serves me correct, it was something in the region of 3 800 kilometres? Is that correct? MR MKHIZE That was close to 5 000 kilometres. MR WILLS Yes, and is it not also correct that you were issued with a card or a means by which you could fill up with petrol on the kwaZulu government's account and also if you wanted, you could take the car in for services in the same account? MR MKHIZE Yes, we were given a petrol book and the order book. An order book would be used for repairing for tyres and any broken parts of the car. The petrol book was strictly for petrol and oil. MR WILLS So in essence you were given a free hand to utilise this vehicle for whatever distance or whatever purpose you wanted to use the vehicle for, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS You did in fact drive to Eshowe to try and execute the order to kill the male nurse Khumalo, but because of Police in the area, you abandoned that mission, is that not correct? MR MKHIZE No, he is not a nurse. He is a male nurse, he is a male nurse, it was not a female. MR WILLS Yes. Is it not true that the mission was eventually abandoned and you didn't in fact execute this command? MR MKHIZE We failed, we failed to kill him on arrival at Eshowe. MR WILLS And that was because there were Police in the vicinity and there were South African Defence Force patrols at the time you were in Eshowe? Is that right, it was too risky to proceed with the operation? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Now, your evidence is to the effect that you then went to Durban after picking up a person by the name of Andile Xele, who was a person who was used to point out where Nathi was then residing. You found where Nathi was, you kidnapped him, you brought him back to eSikhawini where you killed him, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Can you explain the circumstances of his murder? MR MKHIZE On arrival at the Brickfield where Nathi used to reside in Durban, Andile Xele pointed out the place to us and we went in, myself. If I still remember very well, Zweli Dhlamini was with me, Romeo as well. Romeo and Israel stayed behind in the car, that was at night. I spoke to Indians who were owners of the place and I indicated to them that I was a Police and I produced my appointment certificate, and they gave me permission to proceed into his house. I found him in the house and he was in the company of someone. I spoke to him, explaining to him that I am detaining him because I want to investigate him and his implication in a certain case, and he agreed. He put on his clothes and we left. As he was just about to get into the car, he saw Romeo in the car. On seeing Romeo in the car, he screamed and he started refusing to get into the car. We realised that now that he is screaming, this might lead to our arrest and we pushed him forcefully into the car. Andile took the steering wheel and we drove off, and we brought him back to eSikhawini. We were trying along the way to plead with him to tell us the truth as to people who were involved in planning everything and why they did it. He kept on refusing and denying everything, saying he knows nothing and when we were near Mandeni, he started owning up, indicating that there was nothing he could do himself as well, because he would be killed if he refused to be part of the plot. We proceeded and we had not indicated to him that he might die. We just told him that we are going to investigate him because we want to arrest everybody who is implicated in the plot against Romeo. Then we drove on to eSikhawini. Here at eSikhawini we took the road that headed for Port Dunfort. The one that proceeds straight to the sea. There are bushes around that area. On arrival at the bush, we took him out of the car and Nathi realised that there was no substance to the detaining story and he started fighting back. He beat us and we beat him back. He was fighting such that if he had found a chance to slip, he would flee and that would be attempted murder. We outnumbered him, it was myself, Zweli, Israel Hlongwane and Romeo and Andile Xele. We tried to surround him until we got a full grip of him and we were at this Port Dunfort bush towards the sea. As we were struggling, we all fell down. Israel drew a .38 pistol and on attempting to shoot him, the pistol jammed. Nathi prayed at the time and the second attempt at shooting him, resulted in nothing happening. Nathi also continued praying, calling upon his ancestors. We quickly fixed the pistol, Nathi still under our firm grip, myself and Romeo. We managed to get the pistol fixed, we were forced to use that pistol because it doesn't leave a cartridge behind, which cartridge would be used to trace us. The gun, the pistol finally worked and Israel shot him whilst we were still holding him. Two shots were fired. We then left. On getting into the car, we thought that the ANC has a tendency to burning IFP members on killing them, that was a common practice, because it was a common ANC practice to burn these people on killing them. The UDF would equally necklace people, this was not a common Inkatha practice, it was mainly the practice within the ANC, to necklace people. We thought that so that we can mislead evidence and any track of information, let us do exactly as the ANC does. Let us also burn this one so that the investigation can direct itself to the ANC and not the IFP, because it was the ANC that was popularly known at the time, to have a slogan to the effect that they will liberate the country with matches. If a person was found dead, this would have to be associated with the ANC, because they believed in liberating the country through the tyre and a match. We did this trusting that we would mislead investigation and we wanted the ANC to feel exactly how it feels like to burn our people. We were at war with the ANC. We did barbaric things because we were at war. We wanted them to go through the same pain as we did. We drained petrol from the car, we came back and we burnt him. We left. Because we had difficulty siphoning the petrol from the small petrol pump in the engine, we realised that it would not succeed because we didn't have enough petrol from the small petrol pump in the engine. That was for the first time that we burnt a person, and we never did it again. We realised that because there were not enough fumes to really burn him, we just left. I later learnt that there are certain things that one would have to do to ensure that a body burns completely, like throwing soil over the body. This I had not known about and I did not even know or learn about it during my training at the Caprivi. We left him there and we left. After some time, I was arrested for the same murder. Romeo was the first to be arrested and after a month, or within a month, I too was arrested. That was the first case that took us to jail, not the others. I suppose everybody knows the details of the case, and we were sentenced for that murder because we took Nathi from Brickfield and brought him here against his will. We were charged for kidnapping and I was sentenced for five years for kidnapping, and for killing him, I was then sentenced to 25 years. But it was indicated that I would serve me term concurrently, that simply means the five years was included within the 25 years, and it would therefore become 25 years for killing Nathi. I am still serving the sentence at the Westville prison. MR WILLS Yes, Mr Mkhize, is it not so that your prosecution followed again from an investigation that was conducted by South African Police at that time, under the command and control of a Brigadier Eric du Preez and a Major Scholtz, and not as a result of investigations emanating from the kwaZulu Police? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Why did you take Nathi back to eSikhawini before you killed him, why didn't you just kill him, if it was your intention to do so, closer to his home, closer to Durban? MR MKHIZE The reason was that if we killed him around Durban, if he should be found dead, the case would be investigated in Durban and therefore would be investigated by the SAP, which Police Force we did not have influence upon. We tried to bring him back to Durban and kill him within our jurisdiction, so that on finding him dead, the case would be investigated by the kwaZulu Police. MR WILLS Mr Mkhize, I am going to now refer you to the next incident, which commences at page 112 of the record, your paragraph 76 and that is the murder of Sergeant Dhlamini and other incidents of the 19th of June 1993. Is it not so that you are able to be specific about the dates in the matter, simply because of the fact that there has been a Supreme Court trial in this matter and the exact dates were established in evidence, and you are not in fact relying on your memory in regard to those dates, you are relying on the fact that the Supreme Court did establish that these incidents did occur on these dates? MR MKHIZE Would you please repeat the question? MR WILLS Throughout your affidavit, you haven't been specific about the dates of the incidents that you have been involved in, you have said about 1992 and late or early in 1992, but for these incidents you have specifically mentioned the date, ie the 19th of June 1993. I am trying to explain and ask your confirmation that the reason for you knowing this exact date, is simply because this has been established through a Supreme Court trial? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. I know the dates because indeed this incident to which you are referring, was the last incident before my arrest and I was arrested in the same year in 1993, there is no any other incident beyond that. It was actually the last one in my hit squad operations, and therefore I know that it was on the night of June 1993. MR WILLS Sorry, if the Committee will just bear with me for a moment. This, you have explained to the Committee earlier in your evidence what the problem was as regards Sergeant Dhlamini and by that I refer to the fact that it was alleged that he was supplying information to the Goldstone Commission and that was partly the reason why he was killed. I would like you to, sorry before going into that incident, I want you to just briefly go through the occurrences of that evening, prior to that which involved the murder of the four persons at Gundani Shezi's Shibeen and then go on to tell the Committee about the circumstances surrounding the death of Sergeant Dhlamini. MR MKHIZE Can I please explain this. Nobody died at Gundani's Shibeen. People died at Paul Ngema's Shibeen, not at Gundani's Shibeen. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, whose shibeen? MR MKHIZE They died at Paul Ngema's shibeen at J1 section. MR WILLS Yes, sorry Mr Chairperson, I must withdraw my question. I had in fact made a mistake, the events comments at Gundani's shibeen and then later on four people were killed at Paul Ngema's shibeen. That is correct. Can you describe the circumstances in which those four persons were killed to the best of your knowledge? I know that you weren't directly involved in this incident, and you were originally tried, as you have been alleged to have been involved in this incident, but you were indeed acquitted, but as far as you know what happened to those four persons, at that shibeen. MR MKHIZE On the night of the date referred to, I was at Gundani Shezi's place, H2 section. I used to go there sometimes either for information or I would sometimes go there, sit down and drink. As I was doing that, as usual, one person by the name of Nmbula said you think we are fools, we don't know what you are. We know exactly what you are, you cannot fool us. You mislead us. We know how dangerous you are to us, and you make yourself a brave person by coming to our place. We started arguing, because I, myself, had already taken some few beers and we quarrelled and we ended up fighting literally, by fists. He is quite a hefty person, maybe heftier than I am. He too, was drunk. The problem started, I had my 9 mm pistol and I saw everybody now coming forward as if they were surrounding me. I rushed to withdraw my pistol and everybody had now their hands on my pistol, which was still in my body. There was a struggle with my gun, which ultimately came out of my holster, and as the barrel of the pistol faced up, I don't know what happened exactly, but there was somebody who pulled the trigger. A bullet went off, but fortunately the barrel had faced up. I would not just let go of my gun like that, and everybody stepped away, frightened by the gunfire. I took the pistol and threw it to a boy who was called Skedi and I threw the pistol to him. Skedi received the pistol and I hit Membula with my fist. He hit me back, I fell face up. I picked myself up and I was now fighting with fear because I knew that I was all alone there, all these people were within the same group. I was hesitant to hit him properly with my fist, because if I did so, I feared I might end up in trouble. What annoyed me, what really annoyed me was that I realised that the people who were trying to set us apart, were actually not trying to separate us. And as I was being separated, they were giving Membula a chance to hit me, which he did. I got furious because ... (tape ends) ... I left the place and Gundani made his car available to take me home, and somebody was provided to drive me home. There was also a lady with whom we used to have a fling, and I did not want to give them any indication that I was furious. I was actually so furious about the fact that they were pretending to help and yet they were not. I now had these bulges, a bulging face and I knew that the person would not beat me if there were two of us. On arriving at my place, I spoke to Ali. He has a green Skyline. I requested him to take me to J2 to Romeo. He took me together with this lady who was to be dropped at HY where she resided. We went to Romeo's place. What God in heaven has written is such that it is known that I did not go to Romeo's place to accompany me back so that we can shoot the people. It is known that every man who gets beaten, can get angry. I only went to Romeo so that I too can have my own people and Membula already had his own people, and we should be given a chance as men, so that we can fight using our own fists. Also I had a chance to shoot Membula at the time, but I took the pistol which was loaded and threw it to Skedi who received it and I proceeded fighting with my fists. I did not try to shoot him. I then arrived at Romeo's place in J2, I knocked, they opened the door. I then told them about the whole story. I then asked them to return with me to this place, because I wasn't afraid of this person and he wouldn't really defeat me, but I was also tipsy. MR WILLS Sorry, Mr Mkhize, I just want to try and, we've got a lot to get through today, I want to get through some of the evidence a bit more quickly. I think it is common cause that you eventually ended up with Romeo and Israel and Andile at Paul Ngema's shibeen which was next door to Membula's house, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR WILLS And then you jumped over the wall to enter Membula's house in order to deal with this embarrassment that you had suffered earlier on in the evening, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, I was at the time looking for Membula. I went to look for him in his brother's house, whose house is opposite Paul Ngema's shibeen. MR WILLS Yes, and while you were in the house dealing with Membula, you heard gunshots being fired, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, I heard gunshots whilst I was still inside the house with Membula. MR WILLS You came back out of the house because the gunshots were close and you established on talking to Mr Mbambo and Hlongwane that they had in fact eventually killed this person who you knew as Mbanda. Is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is the truth. MR WILLS And in addition to that you established that they had also killed the three persons who were with Mbanda, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR WILLS Is it not also true that all of these persons were armed, these deceased persons and that you took their weapons, or shall I rather say Mr Mbambo and Mr Hlongwane disarmed them and stole their weapons, is that correct? MR MKHIZE From what I heard, I think it was Mbanda who had an AK47 and two of them had pistols, but one of them was not armed. MR WILLS And those weapons were taken by either Mr Mbambo or Mr Hlongwane, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Now, you decided for whatever reason to continue that night and proceed to Sergeant Dhlamini's home, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR WILLS Can you explain to the Committee what occurred at Sergeant Nhlamini's home? MR MKHIZE We parked the car and alighted. We entered Sergeant Dhlamini's house, there was a light shining outside. I think I am the one who shot at the light. We had parked the car just outside the house. Ali remained in the car. I tried to shoot inside the main bedroom, because I believed that he was in there but I was only shooting at the wall because I knew that as a Policeman he would be armed inside and he was likely to respond, so that I could locate him where he was inside the house. He didn't shoot back. I shot again and he did not respond. We then took our positions, Romeo was at the back near the kitchen door. I and Hlongwane were at the front. Constable Mthetwa took guard at the side near Sergeant Dhlamini's neighbour. On realising that Sergeant Dhlamini was not responding by firing, but we could hear his voice inside the house, he was shouting obscenities, it appeared that he knew who was shooting at him. From his insults it appeared that he knew who were shooting, saying that we were there to finish him off, sent by so and so. Saying that we would not succeed today, we should come inside the house and he would show us. We eventually managed to kick the door open, both the back and front doors and we fired. His wife emerged, carrying a baby on her back. We stopped firing and the wife passed us and she went to the neighbours. Then we advanced into the house. I then remembered that we had not parked the car properly, it was in front of the gate. As the gunshots were going off, I thought that the neighbours would look out and see the car and take the registration numbers. I then told the other guys that I was going back to the car but they should continue. I got into the car and I told the driver to move off. I went back to my place and slept. On the following day I woke up and went to Romeo's house and he told me that they had eventually succeeded. He explained how they had killed him. The person who eventually shot him, was Israel Hlongwane, but I wasn't there at the time because I had gone back. I heard this information from Romeo on the following day. MR WILLS Is it not also so Mr Mkhize, that you reported again back to Major Langeni and indicated to him that you had, your unit had successfully attended to this mission? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct, I reported back to him. He was very pleased that we had succeeded. MR WILLS Is it also not so that a Captain Nquno who was Head of the Riot Investigation Unit at eSikhawini called Romeo and you in to his office in order to question you about this incident? MR MKHIZE Yes, there was a time when I was called in by Captain Nquno about this matter. When I got into the office Romeo was already there. MR WILLS And what was said at this meeting? MR MKHIZE He told us that we are suspects in the murder of Sergeant Dhlamini, who was also known as Mdonono, but he said for the time being sworn statements made that person said he saw Romeo and that in fact would necessitate the arrest of Romeo, but nobody had as yet claimed that they had seen me, so I wouldn't be arrested. We then asked why, when did it start that if we carry out these operations, we get arrested and he said that ANC leaders are busy phoning saying that the evidence is there, why are the people not being arrested and they were saying that they were taking this case to the Goldstone Commission because there was evidence that we had killed Sergeant Dhlamini. We then realised that Dhlamini must have been an important person in the ANC. Captain Nquno told us that there were endless telephone calls from the ANC leadership on why we were not being arrested, therefore the matter was no longer in his hands, it was going to the Goldstone Commission therefore we should accept and be arrested and we will try to deal with the case, but I wouldn't be arrested because there weren't as yet sworn statements from witnesses. Romeo refused to be arrested and enquired as to who had given the instruction for us to be arrested, and Captain Nquno told us that Brigadier Mzimela had given the instruction. Romeo then asked for the Captain to take him to Brigadier Mzimela. They went there and I remained behind. I think Romeo can explain better what discussion they held with Brigadier Mzimela. MR WILLS I just want you to confirm one aspect of the evidence in this regard. In paragraph 84, page 116 where you say he and I trust you are referring to Captain Nquno he also informed me that they were going to take some precautions to destroy the evidence because it was suspected that the dockets would be taken to the Goldstone Commission for investigation. Did he in fact say that to you? MR MKHIZE We talked about this matter in his office because we didn't, it was the first time that we hear of being arrested. He assured us that we should do this for the time being so that the ANC leaders will be (indistinct), but afterwards they will try by all means that we are not touched or convicted and we believed him. MR WILLS Sorry, Mr Mkhize, my concern is the issue of destroying evidence. Did he make any statements in this regard? MR MKHIZE This, yes, we did. We talked about swopping cartridges that is swopping the cartridges on the scene. He said that maybe we should take cartridges from the scene in J1 and replace them, swop them for this at Sergeant Dhlamini's house. We protested against this because we had also carried out the murder in J1. MR WILLS Sorry, just to be clear for the members of the Committee. When you talk about the incident in J1, you are now referring to the incident where the four youths were killed at the shibeen, is that correct? The incident that had occurred earlier in the evening to Sergeant Dhlamini's death? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is the incident I am referring to. MR WILLS Now, I also just want to confirm before I leave this incident, is it not so that the area within which this shibeen is situated, where the four youths were killed, is indeed an ANC controlled area? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR WILLS Just to complete this incident, it is also true that you were convicted of the murder of Sergeant Dhlamini and sentenced to a 25 year term of imprisonment for this incident, and so too were Mr Mbambo and Mr Hlongwane convicted and given the same sentence and they also were convicted in respect of the murders of the four youths and also sentenced to 25 years, is that right? MR MKHIZE Yes. The murder of Sergeant Dhlamini carried two charges, one of house breaking because we had forcefully entered his house. It was house breaking with intent to murder and the second charge was murder. We were sentenced each one of us to 25 years imprisonment, we are serving that sentence at Westville prison. MR WILLS Before we go off the issue of the court, the trial and the sentence, it is correct that the cumulative effect of your sentence is in fact that you are serving a term of 52 years, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is 25 years for the murder of Sergeant Dhlamini, another 25 years for the murder of Nathi Gomedi and the two years was for checking or breaking into Membula's house at J1. Because I entered that house forcefully. MR WILLS Is it not so that during your trial in that matter, you did in fact not offer a version in defence of these matters, you simply remained silent in your trial, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, I did not offer any defence. I only spoke in mitigation of sentence where I requested for reduction of sentence, that is when I started speaking but from the beginning to the end of the trial, I did not offer any defence. MR WILLS And is it not so in your evidence in mitigation of sentence that the events you described in that evidence was substantially the same as the evidence you have given before this Committee in this amnesty application in relation to the same incidents? MR MKHIZE What I am saying here today is what I said in mitigation of sentence. I also spoke to the TRC, the Committee for the violation of human rights in exactly the same fashion as I am doing today. I think I am speaking here for the third time as I am seeking amnesty. ADV KHAMPEPE Mr Wills, are you going to give this incident? MR WILLS I am. ADV KHAMPEPE Can I just ask for clarity? I didn't know whether this was addressed, I was at one stage not catching up with the translation. Did Mr Mkhize say that Mr Membula was a member of the ANC? MR MKHIZE Yes, Membula that I was fighting at Gundani's house was an ANC member as I explained. He said it clearly that I thought that I didn't know the sort of danger I was to them, that made it clear to me that he was an ANC member. ADV KHAMPEPE Thank you Mr Wills, you may proceed. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mkhize, are you okay to continue this afternoon? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR WILLS I want to turn now to page 116 of the record, your paragraph 85 and deal with the murder of Sergeant Khumalo. CHAIRPERSON Page 44 of your affidavit, paragraph 85. Have you found it Mr Mkhize, it is page 116, page 44, paragraph 85. MR WILLS You have got it there Mr Mkhize? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR WILLS You have indicated earlier that Sergeant Khumalo was suspected to be an ANC sympathiser and that his name was included in this so-called hit list at a meeting that was held earlier at the Klangelani Hall and that his name in fact was included by Brigadier Mzimela, do you recall that? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR WILLS You also indicate in your statement here, that his name was also discussed at a meeting between yourself and Mr Luthuli, Mr M.Z. Khumalo and Major Langeni and Romeo at Ulundi, where you indicate that Major Langeni gave you an instruction to kill him, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR WILLS Now you initially had a problem with this instruction, is that not so? MR MKHIZE Yes, we did have a problem, myself and Romeo. MR WILLS Can you tell me what that was? MR MKHIZE The problem was that we were short to be given instruction to kill Sergeant Khumalo because of the way he was friendly towards us. Because of the nature of the Policemen, we knew him to be and he had never expressed any signs or any indication that he could be on the ANC side. What really troubled me or concerned me about killing him, is because I knew him to work at Ulundi, working very closely with the IFP leadership. I was therefore surprised or confused as to how he had come to identified as a target. I knew him to be a person who used to work very closely and was quite trustworthy. He was a body guard to the political leaders, that was a position of trustworthiness, so I was confused as to what was really going on. I thought maybe this order was maybe related to his being removed from Ulundi to eSikhawini. But we had a problem with killing him and we voiced this out to the leadership. We told them about our problem. MR WILLS Did the fact that you had a problem with this instruction, mean that you were not prepared to carry out this instruction? MR MKHIZE No, that is not what I am saying because we didn't have information on the motive for him being killed so that we could assess whether killing him was necessary. We had to do it when we were given the instruction because as I have explained before, you could not refuse a command. It was just something that you would not do. You would either maybe raise a point that you were failing, but not that you wouldn't do it. But eventually it emerged that why he was being killed, we realised that he had to be killed because eventually we confirmed information about him. I will explain this. Romeo was in the Detective Unit and they would parade in the mornings. He was called by Captain Masinga, who was the Head of their Unit and Masinga asked him to brief him on what is happening and Romeo enquired about what. The Captain said that he had heard about a lot of things and the Captain told him that he had heard from Sergeant Khumalo from a telephone call from Sergeant Khumalo that he should expect the arrest of some big fish. That members of hit squads would be arrested. He as well, Masinga, also had a hit squad in his unit. Masinga was then surprised about this, because he didn't know of the existence of this hit squad. Eventually Captain Masinga revealed that Romeo was implicated in this hit squad. Captain Khumalo had told him that Romeo was involved in a hit squad within the Detective Unit. He was happy - and Khumalo was happy that big fish would be arrested. He identified this big fish as Romeo and others. Romeo then came to me and told me about this matter. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Mkhize for explaining that, can you let the Committee and the members of the public know how it came to be that Sergeant Khumalo was killed? MR MKHIZE Romeo and myself went to Mrs Mbuyasi and we indicated to her that it is said that Romeo is now going to be arrested and thereafter the three of us went to Klangelani Hall. Mrs Mbuyasi's telephone could not make calls, it could only receive and we went to the offices at Klangelani and a telephone call was made to Ulundi. Myself, I still remember that I was held up in one of the offices called to the phone by Mrs Mbuyasi, saying here is Captain Langeni on the phone, calling from Ulundi. I took the phone and Captain indicated that what he has been saying has been confirmed, reference to Sergeant Khumalo and he indicated that the sun should not go down with him still alive. That is what led to the death of Sergeant Khumalo. MR WILLS Can you explain how the actual murder took place? MR MKHIZE We looked for him that night because Captain Langeni on the phone was very angry, he was concerned about the damage that this would have on the image of the organisation. This would have very bad political repercussions and we undertook to look for him. He wanted him dead before the end of the day. We looked for him until we came across him at the main road next to the College. He was actually headed towards his home, and we were moving towards the opposite direction. We made a U-turn and followed him. There was myself, Romeo and (indistinct) Matenywawya in the vehicle in which we were travelling. On following him we realised that he was headed for his place and we took a different road whilst he proceeded straight ahead towards a school that was painted yellowish, a school that taught people sewing. He proceeded on that road because that is where his house was, and we took the road to our right and met him ahead. (Indistinct) Matenywa offered that he was going to shoot him and we indicated to him that he is armed, you will not be in the position to do it and he insisted that he would shoot him. We asked him what certainty he has and he said he would wish to be given a chance. We knew that he was very good with firearms but unfortunately he had only five bullets. We tried to give him another pistol, but he wanted this one particular AK47 that had five bullets. When we reversed, there is these electricity transmitters, the ones that you find in the streets, (indistinct) Matenywa himself was shot and he hid himself behind one of these electric transmitters, the one that was just next to Sergeant Khumalo's gate and Sergeant Khumalo would have to park at the gate and wait for the gate to be open and (indistinct) hid himself behind this electric transmitter. We proceeded, dropped Matenywa and came back and went back to the school, parked the car at the school to which I referred earlier and we walked back, approaching and as we were approaching, we heard gunshots, single shots were being fired. On shooting him, he did not give him a chance to withdraw his own and as Sergeant Khumalo was still waiting for the gate to be opened, there came two men. They seemed to be from the same family, the Mabiga family and as the other one was getting nearer to Sergeant Khumalo, who was still sitting inside the car holding the steering wheel, Mabiga approached to speak to Khumalo. (Indistinct) Matenywa started shooting when Sergeant Khumalo was shooting to this Mabiga person, and the other one was standing at a distance. As Matenywa was shooting it hit Khumalo and Mabiga. Both of them were hit. The aim was not to shoot Mabiga, but instead to shoot Khumalo. I had also lost control because we were still approaching, we were not within the immediate place so that I was not in the position to say this is not the opportune time to shoot because we have a second person on the scene. Before I arrived on the scene, he started shooting. Sergeant Khumalo did not exchange fire, he had two firearms, a pistol and a rifle, and he was still talking to Mabiga and as a result he just died there in the car. Matenywa ran away towards our direction and we too were at the kind of direction where Matenywa was on the other side of the electricity transmitter and we just stood there. We did not even get nearer, but yes, indeed the two of them were shot that way. MR WILLS Now, you say that you reported this again to Major Langeni? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS What was his response? MR MKHIZE He was delighted about this, because he had earlier on indicated how dangerous Khumalo is at a meeting and he was quite unpleased. He went on to say if Khumalo is not stopped, he would continue and the organisation would be hurt. MR WILLS Yes, now is this another one of these unsuccessful kwaZulu Police investigations? MR MKHIZE Yes, this case was not prosecuted. I would say no one was prosecuted for this case, it is something that just disappeared, nobody was arrested. It was ourselves who was responsible for it as I have just explained. MR WILLS Do you think that there was a knowledge amongst the Policemen at the kwaZulu Police station that you and other persons were involved in the activities that you have been describing over the last few hours? MR MKHIZE Yes, as I have already explained that the ANC had already planted certain persons at the Police station, and at that way there were Policemen who knew what was happening, but it was difficult for them to speak out or expose it, because people knew what dangers that would involve. But yes, indeed there were Policemen who knew what was happening. They saw what was happening. MR WILLS I am not just referring to the Policemen who might have been or were alleged to have been sympathetic towards the ANC, I am referring to the Policemen who were just normal Policemen in the kwaZulu Police station, did they know, do you think, what you were doing, or generally what you and your group were up to? MR MKHIZE Yes, there were some Police who knew that there were Israels, but they didn't have the necessary details. Such ordinary Police would not have all the necessary information. ADV KHAMPEPE Mr Wills, may I interpose? Was this incident, this is the Khumalo murder, ever reported at all at your Police station to your knowledge? MR MKHIZE Yes, it was reported at the kwaZulu Police station. It was reported because if I still remember very well, after having killed him, I remember I went to the Police station that night, and from the Police station we went to check at the scene of the murder. ADV KHAMPEPE And was Mr Mbambo involved at all in the cover up operation for this particular incident? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Mr Mkhize, we are going to proceed now to the incident on page 117 of the record, your paragraph 87, that is the murder of the COSATU bus driver, Myale. What was the attitude of the persons, the leadership that you were dealing with in the IFP, what was their attitude towards members of COSATU and COSATU as an organisation? MR MKHIZE They did not perceive COSATU as a trade union, they saw it as a wing of the African National Congress because it was a structure that involved a lot of people and this is where the ANC got their support. Within the IFP we knew COSATU as just another wing of the ANC, it was actually the ANC itself, realising the objectives and the aims of the African National Congress. MR WILLS Now, you talk here about in your affidavit, that in early 1993 you were at Mrs Mbuyasi's house when Chief Mataba arrived and he wanted to speak to you specifically. Can you proceed from there? MR MKHIZE Yes. Mataba was a member of the Central Committee and also a member of the legislature in the then kwaZulu government. His aim to come to Mrs Mbuyasi's place at that time was so that arrangements can be made to call me to rush to his place at Nyoni to assist. He is a Chief at Nyoni. He also indicated to me that there is one person in the area who was a bus driver and I am just thinking that there must be some place where I am confusing the surname. I cannot differentiate the surname as to whether he was Myale or Mbanza, but I think one of these is his surname. The Chief indicated that this person was problematic in his area, because this person would make sure that the drivers were divided into two. There was this UWUSA group that was in loggerheads with COSATU. UWUSA itself was formed by Inkatha, formed by Chief Mangosuthu so that if a driver belonged to UWUSA he would therefore be a member of Inkatha, and if a driver was on the side of COSATU he would automatically be associated with the ANC. There was a problem because there was this unionism and it became a problem, there came a time when these people started fighting one another, some died and this person was alleged to recruiting people to COSATU leaving UWUSA and therefore this would mean that the organisation was losing support by so doing. He further indicated that this person was organising people so that when they were going to a meeting, a conference at Ulundi they were attacked on their way going via Nyoni. Such busses would be attacked on their way to Ulundi. One person who was alleged to be behind everything was this very same person. He requested that this person should be attacked as a matter of urgency because he was dangerous. That is how we came to kill him. MR WILLS There was a discussion between you and Mataba and Mrs Mbuyasi when this plan was hatched at Mrs Mbuyasi's house, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Mrs Mbuyasi expressed her favour for the plan and it was arranged that you would go down to Chief Mataba's area that very same night, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS And Mataba left a white Toyota Corolla car for the purposes of your transport, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, it is correct but I only got hold of the Corolla after everything else. We were using Jerry Mbanda's car who is now deceased. He was also IFP, he was a guerilla before and he defected from the ANC to the IFP and he is Jerry Mbanda. We drove in his Golf going down to Nyoni to Chief Mataba's place. MR WILLS Can you explain what happened? MR MKHIZE We went down Israel road, or should I say Israel and myself, can I just explain this or rectify this. It might happen that in the affidavit I have indicated that we went down with Zweli Dhlamini, but to the best of my recollection Zweli Dhlamini was not there, but only his brother was present and he worked at eSikhawini, not Zweli Dhlamini and Israel Hlongwane. MR WILLS Mr Mkhize, I know that you have given a lot of evidence today and you have been concentrating all day, but that we will deal with that, that is involved in the next incident. In this incident you don't refer to Mr Dhlamini whatsoever, it was just you and Israel that you say in your affidavit was involved in this incident. ADV KHAMPEPE Mr Wills, will you also ascertain if he is correct if he says he used Jerry Mbanda's car, because that is referred to in the next incident that you will be dealing with. MR WILLS Yes, thank you Ms Committee member. Also the incident, if you look at page 47 of your affidavit where you talk about the incident of murdering an ANC induna, that is where you mention Jerry Mbanda's car. MR MKHIZE I am sorry. Now, I remember. I remember very well now, I am confusing two different incidents where I was requested by Chief Mataba to do some job for him. At one place where we used Jerry Mbanda's car was the incident where we were going to kill Mzimela, the induna. We used the white Corolla when we were going to kill the person whom I said I am not sure whether it is Mdanza or Myale. Now I remember very well. ADV KHAMPEPE Mr Wills, is he saying he is confusing the two surnames between Myale and Mbamba or Mdanza? MR MKHIZE This is one person, it is just me who cannot remember whether he is Myale or Mdanza, but I am talking about one person who was a driver, a bus driver who was killed for the squabble over COSATU and UWUSA, this is one person. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mkhize, just for convenience, seeing that you have referred to him as Mr Myale in your affidavit, you can refer to him as Myale and we will understand that it might not be the correct name. MR MKHIZE Thank you, I will continue to refer to him as Mr Myale. In that incident, that is where I went down with Israel Hlongwane, not with the other two. These two were involved in the Mzimela incident, I am just sorry about that, I was confusing the two. I went down with Israel Hlongwane where we went to Mandeni and we found inkosi Mataba at a certain house at Mandeni, but Israel Hlongwane knows the place very well. On leaving the house, our cars one after the other, with the same Chief, myself driving the Corolla and the Chief in his own car, the house was along the road. This particular house can be seen from a distance from the road and we proceeded to a particular spot where there were trees, that is where we parked the cars. We got off the cars. The Chief himself pointed the house to us and he came back, went back into the car and drove away. We went into the house. This house itself being one of those houses you would find in the rural areas, women responded to our knock and we asked about the whereabouts of this person and they pointed to the upper house and we did not give any indication that we were there for something bad. They pointed to a house further up where he was said to sleep. We knocked at that house. He first of all refused to open the door, and we told him that we were Police, we wanted to search the house because we have information that he had guns and then he opened the door. On opening the door, we just shot him. We did not ask him anything. I think we were using a .38 if I still remember very well, and we just left. We went back into our car and followed Chief Mataba who was no longer anywhere near by, we would reconnect with him at a garage, at a place called Nyatini where we indeed found him waiting for us. We went to him and we explained to him how we fared. He was delighted on receiving the news and we were arranging to see him as time went on. On getting into the car we remembered that we did not have enough petrol in the car and I went to him to say we did not have enough petrol. He gave us R100-00 for petrol. We then came back. We were not arrested, charged or prosecuted for the case. MR WILLS Thank you. Mr Mkhize, finally I just want to clarify one point here. You have indicated in your affidavit that you were the person who shot this Mr Myale at close range, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. I was using .38. MR WILLS Thank you. Mr Chairperson, I see it is four o'clock. I am finished with this incident. I wonder if we could adjourn at this stage? CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Wills, I think this will be a convenient time seeing that it is four o'clock, we have come to the end of today's hearing and we will then adjourn until tomorrow, that will be the 16th of April, here at 09h30 again. We will adjourn until tomorrow at 09h30. COMMISSION ADJOURNS