amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-04-21 DURBAN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54695&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/durban/dbn5.htm CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. At the conclusion of the proceedings yesterday Mr Wills who is representing Mr Mbambo, indicated that he has just a few more points to raise while Mr Mbambo is giving his evidence in chief. Mr Wills, are you ready to proceed? MR WILLS Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbambo, I remind you that you are still under your former oath. MR MBAMBO (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS (Cont) Mr Mbambo, there are just two areas that I want to cover with you this morning, the first concerns your stay in Westville Prison. Were you approached by any persons representing any political party to have to have anything to do with your amnesty application? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is so. MR WILLS Can you tell the Committee and the members of the public what that was about? MR MBAMBO They had come to advise us not to make applications to appear before this Commission, the Truth Commission. MR WILLS Who are they? MR MBAMBO Captain Shalengwa who works for the Durban office of the IFP, Mr Nicky Britz who works at the Durban offices of the IFP and he's in charge of the IFP Dutch Project and Miss Lolita Sing who is a member of Parliament in the National Government as well the Minister of Correctional Services, Minister Sepong Umzumela. MR WILLS Now you've heard - I don't think we need to get into detail about this, you've heard the evidence of Mr Mkhize concerning the meeting that you had with the Minister of Correctional Service, Mr Mtetwa - sorry, Mr Umzumela, when you were taken out of the prison and I think the evidence was to the effect that you had a meeting in some offices which were outside of the prison, is that correct? By that, I mean outside of medium B but within the confines of Westville Prison complex, is that correct? MR MBAMBO Yes, this is correct. MR WILLS And do you confirm the statements made by Mr Mkhize in regard to the contents of that meeting? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Now just briefly, why do you think those persons didn't want you to apply for amnesty? MR MBAMBO It was because they did not want the truth to be revealed because it was well-known that if we made these applications the prerequisite for such applications would be a full disclosure of the activities that we were involved in thus we would have been forced to expose the truth and by so doing implicate all IFP Ministers and others who are in Parliament on behalf of the IFP, as well as other respected Nkosis and chiefs and in that way the IFP's image would be damaged. I think it was to protect the IFP's image. MR WILLS Yes, thank you. The last area I want to cover briefly Mr Mbambo is your current political allegiance. Are you a member of any political party at this point in time? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is so. MR WILLS Can you tell the Committee what that is? MR MBAMBO It is the Inkatha Freedom Party. MR WILLS Now you mentioned yesterday that you were involved in a process within the prison which as I understood, the purpose of this process was to reconcile various prisoners serving sentences from various political parties in Westville Prison, is that correct? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is so. MR WILLS And obviously the two main parties there being the ANC and the IFP? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is so. MR WILLS And I think your evidence yesterday was that you are the Chairperson of this Committee, is that correct? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS Now, which political party are you mandated by in respect of your endeavours in this Committee? MR MBAMBO I was elected by the IFP to represent it in the ...[indistinct] this Committee. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Mbambo, when you say you were elected by the IFP, are you saying you were elected by the IFP members who were in prison or was it beyond the walls of the prison from this election came? MR MBAMBO I was elected by IFP prisoners at Westville Prison and there were representatives from the IFP offices as well. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions for this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Wills. Mr Stewart, do you have any questions to put to the witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEWART Thank you Mr Chairperson, yes I do. Mr Mbambo, it has been suggested in the press and also in the Human Rights Violations Committee Hearings in August, that Mr Dalaxolo Luthuli was acting without any instructions or authority from the IFP and that he was commanding some group of hit men for his own purposes and in his own fashion, is that to your knowledge true? MR MBAMBO That is blue lies. MR STEWART How do you know that it's lies? MR MBAMBO I know because Maglanduna was always in the present in the hierarchy that we have spoken about before this Commission, people such as Prince Gideon Zulu, M Z Khumalo Captain Langene and other amakosi. He would be present when they gave us instructions and if there was a task that we hadn't performed well, the person who will be reprimanded will be Maglanduna and he in turn would reprimand us so it is not true that Maglanduna used us for his own purposes. MR STEWART And who would reprimand him? MR MBAMBO I remember Prince Gideon Zulu, in the last meeting that we had at his house where he reprimanded us for not killing Nazi Gumedesuna. He did this to Maglanduna and Maglanduna reprimanded us in turn and that is when we expressed the opinion that we did not have a vehicle at our disposal to carry out this operation. That is why the vehicle from the Chief Minister's Department was given to us. MR STEWART And did you know yourself at that time that Maglanduna has been designated the Political Commissar of the Caprivi trainees? MR MBAMBO Yes, I did. ADV MOTATA If you just for a moment Mr Stewart. Mr Mbambo, you say Prince Gideon Zulu would reprimand you through Maglanduna, that is Dalaxolo Luthuli, where the instructions or the reprimand as you put it, to Dalaxolo Luthuli made in your presence, that he should reprimand you? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. ADV MOTATA Thank you Mr Stewart. MR STEWART Thank you Mr Committee Member. Is it true Mr Mbambo that throughout all of this time from before your first arrest and subsequent to your arrest and your various trials and right up until today, that Mr Luthuli has remained loyal to you and to your colleagues? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR STEWART And that he stood by all of you and supported you? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR STEWART And that he's also assisted and advised you? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR STEWART And that he's held in high regard by you and your colleagues? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR STEWART Is it also true that Mr Luthuli encouraged you at the time after your arrest and when it became apparent that you were not getting legal support and so on, that he encouraged you to tell the whole story and that this was now the new South Africa and that a new beginning must be made? MR MBAMBO Yes, he said he did not see a reason to continue with the fighting. MR STEWART And also that he encouraged you to tell the whole story? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR STEWART Now, Mr Mbambo, I want to deal briefly with this question of random attacks in so-called ANC areas, and it's been said by Mr Luthuli and Mr Mkhize what the objectives were and indeed you've covered that to a certain extent but I want to confirm some of what I understand the others have said. Is it true that the political objective in such attacks was to demonstrate the strength and power of the IFP? MR MBAMBO Yes, it is true. MR STEWART And is it true that the purpose of such attacks was also to terrorise the people in those areas? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR STEWART And by so doing to discourage the people in those areas from supporting the ANC? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR STEWART Because they would then know if they supported the ANC they would be placing themselves at risk and subject to attack? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR STEWART And that this strategy would justify in your view, that sometimes non-alliant people would be killed or injured in the process? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR STEWART And is it also true that at the same time that you had that strategy which I've spoken of, of these random attacks, you also had the targeted strategy, of targeting particular individuals who you regarded as most dangerous, isolating them out and eliminating them through assassination? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR STEWART And these two strategies existed at the same time, hand in hand? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is so. MR STEWART Now Mr Mbambo, to your knowledge is it true that the amnesty applications of yourself and Mr Mkhize and Mr Hlongwane on the one hand were prepared in isolation and without contact with Mr Luthuli and Mr Dlamini and Mr Khumalo and their legal representatives on the other hand? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR STEWART And that there was no liaising between the two and preparing the affidavits together? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct, there was no contact. MR STEWART Now Mr Mbambo, in your experience working in the IFP over these years, is it right to say that there was both simultaneously a public face and a private face to your organisation? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is the truth, that's what we're exposing here today. MR STEWART And that the public face was a spousing or propagating peaceful and non-violent political means and the private face was propagating violent and ruthless extermination of political opponents? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR STEWART And lastly Mr Mbambo, I want to deal with the role of Zweli Dlamini in the eSikhawini area. His application and his evidence in due course will show that he'd been involved elsewhere and then he came to eSikhawini and he joined the group which you also became part of. Is it correct that in that group he did not play a leadership role? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is the truth. MR STEWART And that he didn't play a role whereby he initiated actions or operations? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR STEWART And that generally speaking he was the sort of person who did what he was told to do? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR STEWART And in fact that he was often not even part of the strategising meetings, he was very often guarding those meetings while the decisions were being taken? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR STEWART Thank you Mr Mbambo, no more questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEWART CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Stewart. Mr Ngubane, do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you. Mr Mbambo, I noticed that you have your statement in front of you but you have related these incidents with a very scant reference to that affidavit and you have mentioned quite a number of names without mixing them up and that to me creates an impression that the stories that you are telling come out of you voluntarily and you know them ...[indistinct] too well, is that a fair impression? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR NGUBANE For the benefit of the public, you have mentioned that you had various code names for your group and for your activities and for your equipment, if you can tell the members of the public the code name you used for your hit squad, can you do that? MR MBAMBO We were called Bafana Bafana or Bafana Bumshlaba or Easy Bogey. MR NGUBANE And what name did you assign to your equipment, the explosives, firearms and ammunition? MR MBAMBO Explosives, that is hand grenades we called Ama Gabati or Large Stones, guns we used to call Ingoge, such guns as pistols and revolvers, the AK47 rifle was called Igeja. MR NGUBANE Now you have mentioned a certain gentleman by the name of Sepiwe Umvuyani, is it correct that that man was your close friend, you were almost inseparable with him? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR NGUBANE Is it fair to describe that gentleman as the most dangerous hit squad policeman in the Province of KwaZulu Natal? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR NGUBANE What relationship did he enjoy with Chief Gaja Buthelezi? MR MBAMBO He was regarded as a son by the Chief Minister and he trusted him wholeheartedly. If you were a KwaZulu policeman you would not just go and meet the Minister of Police if you were a Constable as Sepiwe was, there are various channels that you are supposed to use. Even these channels go up to the General's position, you cannot go beyond that to the Minister but Sepiwe Vuyani used to wear leather shorts and wear a leather vest as well as a cap and he would go directly to Parliament and meet the Chief Minister without liaising with any other person. MR NGUBANE And when he was, that is Vuyani, when he was transferred from the South African Police to join the KwaZulu Police, he was an ordinary Constable, is that correct? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR NGUBANE Did he have a motor vehicle at that stage? MR MBAMBO No, he did not. MR NGUBANE And immediately after joining the KwaZulu Police, can you describe his lifestyle, the type of motor vehicles that he had and so on and so on? MR MBAMBO His first car was a Mazda 323, a GI, those cars were new at the time. His second car was a red Golf GTI 16 Valve. His third car was a 200E Mercedes Benz, the latest model for that year. His fourth car was a BMW M5, the latest model for that year. His fifth car was a BMW 325IS which was also the latest model for that year. His sixth car was a Caravelle, a 2.1I, the latest model for that year and his seventh car was a Mercedes 2 Door, 380SEC. He also had a flat in St Andrews Street, Durban. He had a house for R750 000 at Umhlanga Rocks. He also had car phones in all of his cars. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbambo, did he have a fleet of cars or those seven cars, were they successively owned? Did he get rid of one and get another one or did he have them as a fleet? MR MBAMBO He would not have less than three cars at one time. MR NGUBANE Thank you Mr Chairman. As a close friend of his, did he tell you where he got the money to buy all these assets? MR MBAMBO Yes, he did tell me and I also observed some of the other things. MR NGUBANE Can you tell the Committee what you saw and what he told you about the acquisition of these assets? MR MBAMBO He received money from the IFP, from the Chief Minister, Doctor M G Buthelezi. Other amounts of money he used to receive from Mr Gogo who was the owner of the Executive Hotel in Umlazi. Mr Sabela, a member of the KwaZulu Parliament who was also an IFP leader at Umlazi had initiated contacts between Sepiwe Vuyani and Mr Gogo so that Sepiwe would protect Mr Gogo from ANC members and Kama Qota where Mr Gogo had businesses. Sepiwe did this job as a member of the IFP, that is protecting Mr Gogo. I have mentioned a meeting that Sepiwe had with Doctor M G Buthelezi in Ulundi. I also explained in my statements that on returning he had a large amount of cash that he had on him which he had been given by M G Buthelezi. MS KHAMPEPE May I interpose Mr Ngubane. Mr Mbambo, when you alleged that the Chief Minister gave Mr Vuyani some money, in what capacity did the Chief Minister give Mr - no, in what capacity did Mr Vuyani receive monies from the Chief Minister, do you know? MR MBAMBO I would not really know, I will leave it to this Committee to conclude about that but Sepiwe used to receive money. Firstly, if you are a policeman you do not receive your salary directly from the Minister of Police and you don't earn your salary in cash so I do not know why he gave him the money. I did not ask or enquire because I understood that he was given the money because of his activities for the IFP. I did not concern myself to ask why he received so much money. ADV MOTATA Before you proceed Mr Ngubane, Mr Mbambo, you told us that this was your best friend actually and as Mr Ngubane has put it to you or asked you rather, you said you were inseparable at some stage, did I understand you correctly? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. ADV MOTATA Now as your best friend and you accompany him to Ulundi and he comes with such large amounts of cash, didn't you ask: "Friend for what purposes were you given these monies by the Chief Minister, Doctor Buthelezi"? MR MBAMBO I did not ask him because what he said was that he had money. ADV MOTATA Thank you Mr Ngubane. MR NGUBANE Thank you. When you Mr Mbambo, you thought that he had received this money because of his work in the IFP, do you agree with me that Mr Vuyani was not the organiser in the IFP but he was actually the hit man? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MS KHAMPEPE May I interpose again Mr Ngubane? When Mr Vuyani went to Ulundi with you - I can't remember the period, I think it was pre '91 when you both went to Ulundi and he came with this stack of money that he had received from the Chief Minister, was he already a hit man to your knowledge for the IFP? MR MBAMBO Yes, he already was. MR NGUBANE I'll move to another point now Mr Mbambo. You say that you were involved amongst things in the coverup where criminal acts had been committed by the members of the hit squad, is that correct? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR NGUBANE And is it correct that you were largely responsible for transporting corpses of ANC people that had been killed to Zwelezane in order for post-mortem examinations to be conducted? MR MBAMBO The company AVBOB will fetch these corpses from the police station and I would be present when the post-mortem was conducted. MR NGUBANE And did you know Doctor ...[indistinct]. MR MBAMBO Yes, I knew him well. MR NGUBANE And he conducted most of the post-mortems on the ANC people at Zwelezane, is that right? MR MBAMBO Yes, he conducted post-mortems on all those that fell within the KwaZulu jurisdiction. MR NGUBANE At that stage did you participate in the coverup when the post-mortem examination was conducted? MR MBAMBO No, I haven't been. MR NGUBANE So you wouldn't know about the allegation that for example, Mr Daliwe, there was no proper post-mortem examination done? You wouldn't have any comments on that? MR MBAMBO No. MR NGUBANE Do you know if anyone of your hit squad helped in any manner in the commission or the irregularities when the post-mortem examinations were conducted? MR MBAMBO No, I don't know of anyone. MR NGUBANE Now, do you recall the ANC rally that was in 1991 at eSikhawini, November 1991? MR MBAMBO I hadn't arrived at eSikhawini by that time. MR NGUBANE Now this rally which you talked about yesterday which was in August 1992 where Prince Gideon Zulu was present, as far as you were aware was it the first rally of the IFP at eSikhawini? MR WILLS Sorry Mr Chairperson, if I can intervene. I think that rally was February and not August '92. MR NGUBANE That is correct. Oh sorry, I'm quoting another incident, thank you very much. That rally where Gideon was present in February 1992, was it the first rally of the IFP as far as you are aware? MR MBAMBO It was the first rally that I attended of that magnitude. MR NGUBANE I see, but there were many rallies that taken place prior to that big rally? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR NGUBANE Did you learn that after each and every IFP rally that was held at eSikhawini, people belonging to the ANC were attacked? MR MBAMBO Before and after. MR NGUBANE So because of the hugeness of the rally in February 1992, there was going to be huge trouble, there was going to huge attack on the ANC people? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR NGUBANE You have testified that that rally was interrupted by the ANC person who shot at the Inkatha members who were at the rally, is that correct? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR NGUBANE Had that person not fired a shot at the Inkatha rally, do you think that the damage that would have been caused to the ANC people would be far larger than what occurred after the rally? MR MBAMBO The rally was actually intended to wipe out the entire ANC at eSikhawini, from Emakandeleni to Eshonobeli hostel. MR NGUBANE So that shot that was fired at the rally interrupted the plans and the objectives of the IFP rally, is that correct? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR NGUBANE You have testified about this rally that Prince Gideon Zulu was carrying a rifle, a 303, is that right? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR NGUBANE And there were many people who were gathered there, as far as you were aware did these people emanate from a single area or were they brought from various areas? MR MBAMBO They came from different areas in KwaZulu Natal and some came from Johannesburg. MR NGUBANE Were most of them armed? MR MBAMBO Yes, most of them were armed. MR NGUBANE If someone were to suggest that that rally was a mere peaceful rally, what would be your comment? MR MBAMBO I would say that person is telling a lie. MR NGUBANE Other than the violent objective of that rally, as far as you were aware was there anything else that was going to be discussed in that rally except to embark on violence? MR MBAMBO No, what I knew was that the ANC was going to be attacked and forced out and after that people gather at the J2 Stadium and Prince Gideon Zulu would address the people. MR NGUBANE Oh, so his address to the rally would have been after the attack had taken place? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR NGUBANE Were there any specific people targeted or was it just a random attack that was going to be undertaken? MR MBAMBO ANC leaders were known at eSikhawini and therefore they were going to be killed one after another, Willis Nkunu for example but it was known that because they were going to start from Emakandeleni and proceed to Eshobeli Hostel and proceed to J1 they would have completed everything when they got there. Willis Nkunu was attacked but fortunately he was no longer there. MR NGUBANE I know it's an incident that took place some time ago and there were quite a number of people involved in the attack of Mr Willis Nkunu's house but as far as you are aware were there any specific people that were directed specifically to attack the house of Mr Willis Nkunu? MR MBAMBO Yes, there were people. MR NGUBANE Can you still recall them and can you tell us who they are? MR MBAMBO It was Nglagane Mpumatengua, Lucky Mbuaze, Bernard Mlambo, Constable Mkwanazi, those are the ones that I can still remember. MR NGUBANE Is it correct that those are the people that actually and finally participated in the destruction of Mr Nkunu's house? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR NGUBANE Now from what you have said, correct me if I'm wrong, I gather that the mode of operation was that certain people were going to attack certain targeted houses - and the people whom I shall refer to as the ordinary people in the rally, were going to attack at random and destroy all the houses, was that mode of operation? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR NGUBANE Now speaking about rallies, you mentioned extensively and gave evidence on the ANC rally that was on the 22nd of August 1992 where Chris Hani and Cyril Ramaphosa were present, you gave us some extensive evidence on that, do you remember? MR MBAMBO Yes, I do. MR NGUBANE Did you know a gentleman by the name of Syela Stele? MR MBAMBO Yes, I know him very well. MR NGUBANE Was he present during the destruction and attack on the ANC people prior to the rally and after the rally? MR MBAMBO He was such a coward, he was only present spiritually. MR NGUBANE What was Syela Stele's status, was he a member of the IFP, was he a member of the KwaZulu Police or was he a member of the hit squad? MR MBAMBO He was not a member of the hit squad but he knew about the hit squad and we would seek and discuss several things with him. He was a police reservist at the KwaZulu Police and he was also Chairman of the IFP Youth at eSikhawini and he was very close to Mrs Mbuaze and Bebe Biela and Brigadier Umzumela because Brigadier Umzumela was his induna. MR NGUBANE Syela Stele participate in the planning of any attacks by the hit squad members? MR MBAMBO No, he only came now and then complaining to Mrs Mbuaze and ourselves that his place Port Dunford is not taken care of because the ANC is attacking them frequently and that is why he brought these boys so that I could train them and the boys went back to Port Dunford to fight. MR NGUBANE Now turning to Daliwe's matter once again, you mentioned that 7.65 pistol was used in shooting him and that pistol had been issued to Mrs Mbuaze, is that correct? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR NGUBANE If you say it was issued to Mrs Mbuaze, are you suggesting that it was a licensed firearm or it was one of those firearms that were issued without the holder having a valid license thereof? MR MBAMBO It was issued by the KwaZulu Police and it was signed for at Ulundi. MR NGUBANE Now as far as I understand the position, if a person was given a firearm license at that time, he had to apply to the Commissioner in Pretoria, is that correct? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR NGUBANE Now are you suggesting that there was this irregular procedure in the KwaZulu Police where certain people were issued with firearms by the KwaZulu Police in Ulundi, is that right? MR MBAMBO Yes, many leaders of the IFP were issued with guns. Chiefs and Indunas were given G3 rifles and shotguns. MR NGUBANE Did that occur according to your knowledge - you might not know it or you may know it, did that occur as a result of a sanction by the Minister of the KwaZulu Police at that time? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR NGUBANE And who was the Minister of the KwaZulu Police at that time? MR MBAMBO Doctor M G Buthelezi. MR NGUBANE I see. If the Committee can just bear with me. Let's come to the incident of Nagtal Nxumalo, there is some clarification we would like to have there. Do you know anything about Vusi Myene? MR MBAMBO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Ngubane, what was that name again? MR NGUBANE The incident is the murder of Nagtal Nxumalo and the person is Vusi Myene. Did he have any role to play in the murder of Mr Nagtal Nxumalo? MR MBAMBO No, not at all. MR NGUBANE Did he at any stage participate in the activities of the hit squad? MR MBAMBO Not at all. MR NGUBANE Thank you very much. You mentioned about an attack on Gabela who resided at J1716, did you? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR NGUBANE Can you get into that matter in greater detail -just to guide you, how it was planned, with whom it was planned, who participated, how it was covered up if it was ever covered up? MR MBAMBO Gabela's house was attacked by the IFP Youth, Nglagane Mpumatengua, Lucky Mbuaze, Bernard Mlambo, Siabonga Mbuaze and Constable Mkwanazi. They had been instructed by Mr Mbuaze with his wife, Mrs Mbuaze. We did not know about that imminent attack and we did not even know a thing about the Gabela family. The Mbuazes and Gabelas were neighbours. I also know that at the time when these boys attacked the Gabela household Mr Mbuaze was wearing a uniform, the KwaZulu Police uniform and he was moving up and down the street as the attack was being carried out. I learnt about this the following day when Mr Mbuaze and the boys came bringing the firearms back to me so that I could clean them because two of them, those were the G3's that came from the eSikhawini Police Station, they requested that I try and clean the guns so that in the event of the guns being sent to Pretoria for forensic tests, the forensic laboratory should fail to associate these guns with the Gabela incident. They then explained to me everything that happened the previous day and they also gave me the reason for the attack. MR NGUBANE I see. What was the reason for the attack? MR MBAMBO There is a hostel that is very close to J2, it is closer to the Gabela household and separated by a main road. I referred to this hostel yesterday as the Railway Hostel and that is the ANC ...[end of tape] ...[inaudible] who had a boyfriend who resided in the Railway Hostel. She was seen frequenting the hostel and they concluded that the girl was also a comrade and apparently there was also a quarrel between Mrs Mbuaze and the parents to the girl over the very same issue of the girl rubbing shoulders with ANC members. It looks like the girls parents were not prepared to tell the girl to stop frequenting the railway hostel. That is the reason I know for the attack. MR NGUBANE Now on a point of clarification, did you say that Mr or did you say Mrs Mbuaze had a quarrel with the parents of the Gabela family? MR MBAMBO Mrs Mbuaze. MR NGUBANE Thank you. And you said that during the attack Mr Mbuaze was wearing a KwaZulu Police uniform? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR NGUBANE Was he a policeman, Mr Mbuaze? MR MBAMBO No, he was not, he was a police reservist. MR NGUBANE Was it the habit of the KwaZulu Police officers to make a police reservist wear a police uniform or was it a strategy of the hit squad people and those other people who were not the hit squad members but who were attacking ANC to clad the attackers in the KwaZulu Police uniform? MR MBAMBO He had the police uniform on that night to cover the boys during the attack but his police reservist position was necessarily the IFP strategy at eSikhawini because all the councillors who were IFP members, leaders of the IFP at eSikhawini had the opportunity to become police reservists. MR NGUBANE Yesterday you testified about the incident where Mlege was killed and one, I think it's Vilane, was injured, can you sketch to us the background leading to the killing of Mr Mlege? MR MBAMBO I would not be in the position to explain to this Commission the background to the killing of Mr Mlege because I only learnt about this whole thing after he was killed and that was at the time when we were discussing that and things that transpired after Mlege was killed. MR NGUBANE When you discussed about his murder, were you furnished with reasons why he was killed, except that he was ANC? MR MBAMBO No other reason was furnished except that he was an ANC member. MR NGUBANE Do you recall the incident when the Gumede family at Gobandlovo was attacked on the 11th of September 1992? MR MBAMBO I still remember there was a house that was attacked Gobandlovo but I have no idea as to the surname and people died, about three or four of them or even more than that. MR NGUBANE Yes, in fact I understand that there were six people that were killed there. Did you participate in that incident? MR MBAMBO No, I did not but I know the people who were present. MR NGUBANE Can you assist us with their names? MR MBAMBO Nglagane Mpumatengua is one of them, Lucky Mbuaze, Bernard Mlambo, Constable Mkwanazi and a certain police who came from the reaction unit of eSikhawini, he ended up committing suicide but I have forgotten his surname. I don't know whether I can request my co-applicants to assist me, if that is permissable. CHAIRPERSON I don't think it's really necessary because what he's giving is also hearsay evidence and I don't think it would be advisable to consult with fellow applicants on a question of hearsay. MR NGUBANE Thank you Mr Chairman. Do you know why that family was attacked? MR MBAMBO They were attacked simply for the reason that they were ANC members. MR NGUBANE And the people that attacked them, were they all members of the KwaZulu Police? MR MBAMBO They were members of the hit squad and the other one whom I said committed suicide was a Caprivian as well and they did this following the instructions of the leader of the IFP at Gobandlovo, a leader who had a Spurs shop at H2 eSikhawini at the Umzumeli garage complex. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Ngubane, where is the Gobandlovo that the applicant is referring to? Is it in the surroundings of eSikhawini? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR NGUBANE Thank you. Now the other incident which I asked Mr Mkhize about was the incident of Dan Ndlovo and a Mabiga girl that were burnt at the hall, do you know about that incident? MR MBAMBO Yes, I know about this incident, the ones who were burnt in a car. MR NGUBANE Yes. Tell the Committee and the members of the public what you know about that please. MR MBAMBO I would like to explain here because I would not explain anything further here because on arrival the car had already been burnt but I know that they were burnt by people that I know. That was the day prior to the march that we spoke about, the big march. Beasts had been slaughtered at S Hall in preparation for the rally the following day and local level leaders at eSikhawini's surroundings were also present at the Shlanganani Hall. There were also members of our hit squad present, people like Israel Hlongwane, Victor Buthelezi and others. They were also the ones whom we referred to as Inkapi who came from Johannesburg being brought by Themba Xhosa. These are the people who killed these people together with Israel Hlongwane. Israel is the one who can explain this better to the Committee. MR NGUBANE Thank you very much. There is another incident which occurred at Mzuzwane's shebeen, do you know anything about that, where Mr Mathaba was injured, Leonard Mathaba? MR MBAMBO No, I don't know. MR NGUBANE It could be one of those incidents where ANC areas were attacked but you didn't know who actually was injured in that incident, is that right? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR NGUBANE Yesterday you mentioned a lady by the name of Vera Zulu who was injured during the operations, do you remember? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR NGUBANE And do you recall that she was taken to the ICU? MR MBAMBO Yes, I do. MR NGUBANE And is it correct that you at some stage visited the ICU? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR NGUBANE The Intensive Care Unit? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR NGUBANE What was your purpose of going there because she instructs me that she was terrified when she saw you there, can you just explain why you went there? MR MBAMBO It was not Vera Zulu who was at the hospital on that day, there were also others who were injured that very same night at eSikhawini. And because our members had attacked that area it transpired that some escaped, survived. I came as a detective to get statements from these people and to try and establish as to whether they could identify the people who were launching the attack and if that's the case, if they knew the people who attacked them I would then do my job by saying: "The victims don't know the people who attacked them". MR NGUBANE Thank you. The last question is, you mentioned a certain driver by the name of Xele who was from the Chief Minister's Department who furnished you with a motor vehicle to undertake certain missions, did he explain to you how it came about that he had this official motor vehicle from the Chief Minister's Department to all these dirty works? MR MBAMBO Yes, he did explain. MR NGUBANE Can you explain to us what he told you? MR MBAMBO He explained to us that Chief Mangosuthu Buthelezi heard our complaints and concerns that we didn't have vehicles to carry out the duty of attacking the ANC in large numbers and therefore Mr M Z Khumalo together with Mr Mangosuthu Buthelezi made this car available from the Department of the Chief Minister so that this car be brought to us at eSikhawini to enable us to carry out the duties that we were expected to do. And they also gave him these two guns to add to what guns we already had. The car was a white kombi with a registration of ZG1- and other numbers thereafter. The ZG1 explains that this is a vehicle from the Department of The Chief Minister. And the two guns were AK47's and an Uzzi sub-machine gun. MR NGUBANE Mr Chairman, I'm sorry I said it was the last question I was asking, I just received a note here so can I just ask for a short adjournment because I don't understand the import of what is written here, so that I can instructions? CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly Mr Ngubane. We'll take a short adjournment to enable Mr Ngubane to take some instructions. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION R MBAMBO (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON I think if we can proceed. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE I'm indebted to you Mr Chairman. Mr Mbambo, do you of any policeman by the name of Makhunsu who was involved in the hit squad activities? MR MBAMBO Makhunsu? MR NGUBANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON What was that name again? MR NGUBANE Makhunsu: M-A-K-H-U-N-S-U. MR MBAMBO No, I don't. MR NGUBANE If you can recall, can you assist me, do you remember the incident on the 1st of May 1993 when the Mathaba family of Langeso was attacked? MR MBAMBO No, I don't know of that incident. MR NGUBANE And you have never heard about it, is that right? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Ngubane, I'm sorry to be coming in at this time, I think we have allowed you some attitude to ask questions which do not impinge directly on the offences in respect of which amnesty is being sought by the applicant, so I am not with you with regard to the names that you have put forward to this witness, whether they have any relation whatsoever to do with the offences in respect of which they are seeking amnesty. MR NGUBANE Thank you Member of the Committee, my understanding is that the applicants have applied for amnesty in respect specific incidents and in respect of other incidents about which they may be ...[indistinct] but which they might have forgotten and that is why I had to ask about these incidents. MS KHAMPEPE If that is the ambit of your question, I think you have the right to ask those questions. MR NGUBANE Thank you very much. May I just point out that in fact there are no more incidents I'm going to ask about except to put to you Mr Mbambo that I've been requested by Mrs Zulu, who is in a wheelchair in front of you, to advise you that she is one of the people that were injured when you attacked the Set me Free shebeen and there were a number of people that were attacked along the road after that incident, is that a correct account of what happened on that day? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR NGUBANE And were you one of the people that stopped her as she was coming from the university, conversed with her and then shot her? MR MBAMBO I was not with the group that attacked, I was only given an instruction to give them weapons and how they should proceed. MR NGUBANE Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Ngubane. MR MBAMBO I would like to pass words of apology to Miss Zulu even though I was not present at the scene, I am involved in your attack and your injury. I regret this and I sincerely apologise for causing or rather for being the cause of the situation that you are in today. I request you to find it in your heart to forgive me. I am very sorry. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Ngubane. Mr Hewit, do you have any questions to put to the witness? MR HEWIT Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbambo, are you in a position to proceed or would you like us to take a tea adjournment now? MR WILLS Mr Chairperson, I wonder if I could intervene, I think it would be appropriate to take the tea adjournment at this stage. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hewit, I see it's ten to eleven and I agree with Mr Wills. MR HEWIT Yes, I have no difficulty with that Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON We will now take the tea adjournment and we'll resume again at twenty past eleven. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION R MBAMBO (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Hewit, are you ready to proceed? MR HEWIT Mr Chairman, before I do, during the tea adjournment my learned friend Mr Ngubane approached me and informed me that he'd been approached by family members of the victims, of further victims, and as a result of that approach he had further questions which he wished to put to the applicant. I have no objection if he finalises his questions before I proceed. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Hewit. Mr Ngubane? FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE Thank you Mr Chairman, I do apologise for the inconvenience that this is causing. Mr Mbambo, do you recall that you testified about the attack on a house where a lady who was asleep was killed eSikhawini? MR MBAMBO Yes, I remember. MR NGUBANE Did you get that information as a result of a report or did you personally participate in that attack? MR MBAMBO I was not involved in the attack but I saw it. MR NGUBANE Would you then be in a position to dispute the fact that in fact the person who was killed in that house was not a female but it was one, Sipho Khumalo? MR MBAMBO I would not object of refute this. MR NGUBANE Do you know about the attack at the Umzumela family in Langezu? MR MBAMBO No, I do not. MR NGUBANE Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Ngubane. Mr Hewit? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEWIT Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mbambo, you told us yesterday at some length that you were regarded as a hero by the IFP leadership and it's members for all the attacks you launched on the ANC and the UDF and the murders you committed, is that right? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT You also told us that you were constantly, after each operation, praised by and thanked by various people like Mrs Mbuaze, Brigadier Umzumela and various other high ranking people, is that correct? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR HEWIT Now a Sergeant earns more than a Constable, doesn't he? MR MBAMBO Please repeat the questions? MR HEWIT A Sergeant in the police earns more than a Constable? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT And a Lieutenant earns more than a Sergeant? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR HEWIT And a Major earns more than a Lieutenant? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT And so we go on right to the top of the pile to someone like Brigadier Umzumela who earns a lot more than all those people? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR HEWIT Now, you joined the police as a Constable, is that correct? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR HEWIT By the time you were arrested and convicted and sentenced to imprisonment you were still a Constable? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT Did you ever ask these people who were so grateful for your activities, discuss with them the question of promotion to other higher ranks with more money? MR MBAMBO There would be discussions about it but not a ...[indistinct] that we were requesting it. MR HEWIT Didn't you want to advance, didn't you want some recognition for the hero status you say you had? MR MBAMBO Yes, we did. MR HEWIT Do I understand your last answer to be that you did deal with the question of promotion to higher ranks with more money with your superiors? MR MBAMBO Yes, it happened during discussions but we did not meet specifically to discuss promotions. MR HEWIT Well, did you ask Captain Langene if you were ever going to be promoted for the good work you were doing? MR MBAMBO I never asked Captain Langene. MR HEWIT Did you ever ask Brigadier Umzumela, he's pretty high ranking, did you ever ask him about promotion to higher ranks for the good works you were performing? MR MBAMBO I've never requested but he sometimes suggested it. MR HEWIT So why weren't you promoted? MR MBAMBO I have no idea. MR HEWIT Well, did he ask you to take a promotion to higher ranks, Brigadier Umzumela? MR MBAMBO During our conversation when he was recommending us on our activities, Brigadier Umzumela would say we shouldn't be concerned because shortly we would be becoming Warrant Officers. It was seen that we were going to just become Warrant Officers. MR HEWIT When did you join the police? MR MBAMBO In 1990. MR HEWIT And when were you arrested and imprisoned? MR MBAMBO In July 1993. MR HEWIT And was July '93 the last time you ever performed any duties as a policeman? MR MBAMBO I stopped in April 1993. MR HEWIT And during that entire time you'd never received a single formal acknowledgement of the good work you've done, through a promotion or though it was suggested? MR MBAMBO No. MR HEWIT Did the same apply to Brian Mkhize? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is true. MR HEWIT He started as a Constable? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR HEWIT And he ended his career as a Constable? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR HEWIT Were you ever present when the question of his promotion was ever discussed? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is true. MR HEWIT Do you know why he also was never promoted? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR HEWIT What's the reason for that? MR MBAMBO I don't know of the reason. MR HEWIT Did you never discuss the fact that your work was not being tangible acknowledged with promotions and more money? MR MBAMBO No. MR HEWIT Were you not interested in promotions? MR MBAMBO Yes, I did want to be promoted. MR HEWIT But you can't yet tell us why you weren't? MR MBAMBO No. MR HEWIT Did you receive sums of money like this person you mentioned, Umvuyana? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR HEWIT Over and above your salary? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR HEWIT How much money did you receive over and above your salary? MR MBAMBO Bebeyela the Mayor would sometimes sign a cash cheque for R1 000. Mrs Mbuaze if I had requested money from her she would ask how much I needed, maybe I would be needing R100 at that time and she would give me the money. MR HEWIT Was this money that you just received for expenses in connection with various operations or was it in effect an extra salary or extra income you received for doing such good work? MR MBAMBO It was not a salary. I would request the money if I needed it. MR HEWIT For expenses incurred for the operations? MR MBAMBO No, for my personal needs. MR HEWIT Well now, approximately how much do you say you received over and above your salary from the time you joined this hit squad until you were arrested? MR MBAMBO I would not be able to specify the amount because I received this money at various points in time and from various people. The last amount we received, myself together with Xene from Chief Mataba. Another amount that we received when we had already been arrested was from Prince Gideon Zulu, from the Mtuzini Court and he asked Mr Njose to give us this money, the amount was R200 for each of us. MR HEWIT So, are you able to give us any idea at all, over this period of time from 1990 to 1993, how much plus or minus you received extra over and above your salary? MR MBAMBO I would say ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I think Mr Hewit, you're talking about Mr Mbambo personally, the you is singular? MR HEWIT I'm only referring to the money that you received. MR MBAMBO I would say plus minus R5 000 because there was R2 000 that I received M R Mkhize, he was in fact shutting me up, he didn't want me to talk about it because we had realised or discovered that the guns that had been brought to him by Citi Mtetwa were supposed to be distributed within the police and he was not supposed to sell those guns but he did so. He gave me this amount of R2 000 so that I would not report him. MR HEWIT And are you talking about a person who was a member of the hit squad? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR HEWIT So it came to your knowledge that a member of the hit squad was in fact stealing money that was earmarked for other purposes? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR HEWIT Did any other crimes like this, theft of trust money in effect, come to your attention amongst members of this hit squad? MR MBAMBO No. MR HEWIT Did all members of the hit squad receive sums of money at various points of time from various different people for the jobs they did? MR MBAMBO They would receive money but not for the activities that they carried out. MR HEWIT What would they receive money for then? MR MBAMBO In case of their personal needs like furniture instalments and such other things. MR HEWIT In other words sums of money which would make their standard of living better? MR MBAMBO You will say that if you like. MR HEWIT So the hit squad members then were not doing what they were doing simply for love of their particular ideology but they were also making a tidy bit on the side? MR MBAMBO Even if I did not receive the money, because the money issue was not even discussed initially, I would have carried out these activities for the IFP. So, the money was not an issue but our love and patriotism of the organisation and for the Zulu people inspired us to carry out these activities. MR HEWIT The receipt of this extra money must have made your work more attractive, correct? MR MBAMBO You would say that. MR HEWIT So it would be an over simplification to say that you simply did what you did for ideological reasons but you were also somewhat of a higher dun and so were other members of your group? MR MBAMBO No, that is not correct. MR HEWIT When you joined the police did you have a motorcar? MR MBAMBO No, I did not. MR HEWIT Did you ever own a motorcar during your membership of the KwaZulu Police Force? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR HEWIT What motorcars did you own? MR MBAMBO A VW Jetta and BMW 328I, 320I. MR HEWIT Yes, any other motor vehicles? MR MBAMBO No. MR HEWIT Now those two motor vehicles which you have mentioned, did you own either of them at the same time? In other words have two motor vehicles together? MR MBAMBO No, it was at different periods. MR HEWIT When Nati Gumede was murdered, what motor vehicle did you have? MR MBAMBO I did not have a car. MR HEWIT Was Nati Gumede the person that you had bought a motor vehicle from? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR HEWIT What motor vehicle was that? MR MBAMBO The VW Jetta. MR HEWIT And at the time he was murdered, did you still have that blue VW Jetta? MR MBAMBO No. MR HEWIT Where was that Jetta then? MR MBAMBO I have no idea. MR HEWIT Well when you bought the Jetta from him, didn't you say in your affidavit that you took in for various repairs? MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT Were the repairs effected to that VW Jetta? MR MBAMBO Yes, but they hadn't completed the repairs. MR HEWIT So where was the VW Jetta then when Nati Gumede was murdered? MR MBAMBO It was no longer at the panel beaters at Richards Bay. They said somebody had come and fetched the car. I went to the vehicle theft unit in Empangeni and saw Warrant Officer Cloete because he knew about the car. I asked him about it and he said he didn't have any information. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying Mr Mbambo, that that vehicle was stolen? MR MBAMBO I would say that it was stolen although Cloete thought that Nati could have taken it. MR HEWIT Did you have your BMW motor vehicle up until the time you bought the Jetta from Nati Gumede? MR MBAMBO No, I bought it thereafter. MR HEWIT Yes, but did you get rid of the BMW just before you bought the Jetta? MR MBAMBO I did not have a car before I owned the Jetta. MR HEWIT For how long a period of time was it that you didn't own a car? CHAIRPERSON Between the VW and the BMW? MR HEWIT Between the BMW and the Jetta? MR MBAMBO I think it was about two or three months. MR HEWIT Now Brian Mkhize, did he have a motorcar? MR MBAMBO He had a Mazda 323. MR HEWIT A Mazda 323? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR HEWIT And did he have that Mazda 323 at the time of Nati Gumede's murder? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR HEWIT At the time of the murder, round about that time you used to see Brian Mkhize driving that Mazda 323? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR HEWIT Who was the other person that committed the murder on Nati Gumede with you, apart from Mkhize and yourself? MR MBAMBO Israel Hlongwane, Zwele Dlamini, Andile Xele. MR HEWIT Alright, let's deal with Israel Hlongwane, did he have a motor vehicle? MR MBAMBO No, he did not. MR HEWIT Are you saying that Israel Hlongwane never owned a motor vehicle? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR HEWIT Who was the other person you mentioned? MR MBAMBO Zwele Dlamini, did he have a motor car at that stage, round about the time of Nati Gumede's murder? MR MBAMBO No, he did not, he used a vehicle from the IFP offices. MR HEWIT And this other person you mentioned, I think it was Andile Xele, did he have a motor vehicle at the time? MR MBAMBO No, he did not. MR HEWIT Right, now is there any particular reason why you couldn't have gone to Durban to kidnap Nati Gumede, using Brian Mkhize's Mazda 323? MR MBAMBO We wouldn't have used ...[indistinct] car because it was his personal car and not for these activities. MR HEWIT Is that the only reason you wouldn't have used his car? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR HEWIT Not because it could be recognised? MR MBAMBO No, you could have changed the registration numbers. MR HEWIT Now what vehicle do you say you were given to perform this murder? MR MBAMBO It was a white Open Monza. MR HEWIT And you drove to Durban in this Monza to kidnap Gumede? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR HEWIT Now whose Open Monza was this? MR MBAMBO It belonged to the Chief Minister's Department. MR HEWIT With official government number plates on? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR HEWIT So, is your evidence that your private car - was your private car ever used for any operation? MR MBAMBO No. MR HEWIT Was Brian Mkhize's private car ever used for any operation? MR MBAMBO No. MR HEWIT Were the cars of any of the members of the hit squad, their private cars, ever used for any operation? MR MBAMBO Except for Bebe Biela's. MR HEWIT And every time you used Biela's motor vehicle, did you change number plates or just drive the motor vehicle? MR MBAMBO Yes, we did change the number plates. MR HEWIT So he was happy each time for you to change his number plates for these operations? MR MBAMBO Yes, we changed our plates regularly. MR HEWIT And was this his private motor vehicle, not a government motor vehicle? MR MBAMBO As far as we knew it was a car allocated to him as the Mayor of eSikhawini. MR HEWIT Now, didn't you also use, according to you, Mrs Mbuaze's motor vehicle? MR MBAMBO No. MR HEWIT Did you never drive her motor vehicle? MR MBAMBO Mrs Mbuaze's vehicle? MR HEWIT Yes. MR MBAMBO I drove it many times. MR HEWIT And when you drove it on those other occasions, were the number plates left on or did you change those number plates? MR MBAMBO I would use it with it's original number plates. MR HEWIT And did you often drive in that car with her as well? MR MBAMBO It was my duty at the time when she teaching at Nongoma and she was staying at KwaZulu Government flats in Ulundi, to drive her every Sunday afternoon together with Mrs Mtale taking her back to Ulundi and I will return with the car and leave it with her husband Mr Mbuaze. On Fridays I will then go back to Ulundi to fetch her using her car. MR HEWIT And she would be in the car with you sometimes? MR MBAMBO Yes, on many occasions. MR HEWIT Did Mrs Mbuaze not have any problem or difficulty being seen in your company? MR MBAMBO No, she was very proud of being seen with me. MR HEWIT Now, these operations which you performed, would you describe them as covert operations? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR HEWIT No covert operations means that they're under cover, they're clandestine and that the people who perpetrate the murders or the attacks, their identity shouldn't be known, isn't that correct? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR HEWIT And you wanted to keep your identify presumably secret? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is why I would wear a balaclava at night. MR HEWIT Mrs Mbuaze, did she want to keep her identity in this hit squad hierarchy a secret? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is so. MR HEWIT Prince Gideon Zulu, did he want to keep his identity in the hit squad hierarchy a secret? MR MBAMBO They all wanted to remain anonymous, that's why they're not here today. MR HEWIT And Mr Biela too, presumably he wanted to remain anonymous himself? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's true. MR HEWIT Now, as I understand your evidence, you and various other members of the hit squad were constantly at Mrs Mbuaze's house, is that correct? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is the truth. MR HEWIT And as I understand your evidence yesterday, after one particular operation you actually all walked back to her house from the operation and she was outside waiting for you, is that correct? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR HEWIT Was she not concerned about you members of the hit squad immediately coming back to her house after an attack? MR MBAMBO No, she was only concerned about our safety. She would only relax when she saw we were all returning safely. MR HEWIT So those instances then when you were seen at her house or went back to her house after an attack she didn't seem particularly worried about remaining anonymous or staying distant from you people? MR MBAMBO No. MR HEWIT Can you explain that, if the whole object of this manoeuvre was to be a covert operation and she was to remain anonymous? MR MBAMBO Firstly I will explain by saying that these covert operations you're talking about, you used your own definition of explaining it and I agree with certain elements of your definition but as reference to the IFP's definition of covert, all that happened as has been explained here, happened within that ambit of covert operations and therefore our presence at Mrs Mbuaze's house made her proud and pleased. She would normally ride with me or Zina in her vehicle or Zweli Dlamini ...[end of tape] MR HEWIT ...[inaudible] read to you paragraph 89 of your affidavit at the typed page 37. In that paragraph you state as follows "At J2 section we went to a certain house. The house is situated in an area known as University Lecturers Section" Is that correct, do you remember that? MR MBAMBO Yes, I remember. MR HEWIT "A house was pointed out to us by Siabonga Mbuaze" Correct? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT "He said the house belonged to an ANC member who had once spread rumours that Mrs Mbuaze was killing people" Is that correct? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT "We attacked the house" Correct? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT "We fired shots through the front windows and front door" MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT "I do not know if anybody was injured" MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT "From there we walked on foot to Mrs Mbuaze's house and she was sitting outside waiting for us" MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT Now, were you told to attack this house because the person in it was spreading rumours that Mrs Mbuaze was killing people? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT Was Mrs Mbuaze, did she say that to you? MR MBAMBO We were told by her son Siabonga Mbuaze. MR HEWIT Well, did her son say that his mother was very annoyed about people spreading rumours that she was killing people? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR HEWIT And do you know for a fact yourself that Mrs Mbuaze was annoyed and cross and angry about the fact that someone was spreading rumours that she was killing people? MR MBAMBO I do know. MR HEWIT From that did you conclude that she didn't want people to think she was killing people? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR HEWIT Yet she was happy to be seen in your company on a fairly regular basis? MR MBAMBO That's true. MR HEWIT Did the people in eSikhawini, the UDF, ANC people, did they know that you were a hit squad member? MR MBAMBO They had suspicions but were not certain of that fact. MR HEWIT But you were suspected of being a hit squad member? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR HEWIT Well don't you think that your continued association at Mrs Mbuaze's house made it obvious then to those people with those suspicions that Mrs Mbuaze must also be involved in the killing? MR MBAMBO That's something that has never concerned me, I've never thought that far. MR HEWIT Is your evidence that Mrs Mbuaze at no stage told you and other hit squad members to distance themselves from her or her home? MR MBAMBO She wanted us to remain close to her. MR HEWIT So you wasn't worried about people seeing you at her home? MR MBAMBO No, not at all. MR HEWIT But in the next breath she was very annoyed when people associated the two of you as possibly suspected of killing people? MR MBAMBO That is so. MR HEWIT Did Mr Biela ever object to you going to his home? MR MBAMBO No, never. MR HEWIT Did he at no stage ever say he was concerned about people associating hit squad members with him? MR MBAMBO When rumours started circulating that his vehicle was suspected in the activities of hit squads the only thing that the did was to take this car and drive it personally and he took the Nissan Skyline and gave it to his wife, that was the only thing that he did. MR HEWIT Mr Luthuli told us that there was a certain chain of command with eSikhawini hit squad, is that correct? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR HEWIT Who was your immediate superior? MR MBAMBO Ginam Mkhize. MR HEWIT Who was his immediate superior? MR MBAMBO Mr Mbuaze, Bebe Biela, Brigadier Umzumela, G M Mkhize the Councillor, Chief Mataba, Mr Mnzuza, a J1 Councillor, Mrs Njali, a Councillor at H1. MR HEWIT So it would be incorrect to state then that Mkhize was to take his instructions only from a superior officer in the Police Force, namely Captain Langene and no-one else? MR MBAMBO It is not true. He received instructions from Captain Langene as well as from Prince Gideon Zulu, as well as from the local leadership because a matter would be taken from the local leadership and then referred to Captain Langene and then it would be referred back to Ginam Mkhize. MR HEWIT If that was the system surely the only person that Mkhize would ever have to deal with would be Captain Langene? MR MBAMBO Not only Captain Langene but the others that I've mentioned as well as Dalaxolo Luthuli as well M Z Khumalo. MR HEWIT Why could Captain Langene not get information from the hierarchy and then just deal with the policemen immediately below him, namely Mkhize? Wouldn't that have been a more secure system? MR MBAMBO I would agree with you but that was the way the IFP chose to operate. MR HEWIT So what you're saying to us is that in this whole establishment of the hit squad system and the way it worked no regard whatsoever was paid to security as one would normally find in the police force or in the military? MR MBAMBO We did take precautions because if we hadn't done so we would be arrested or incarcerated for these other crimes that we exposed here. MR HEWIT I want to look at paragraph 22 of your affidavit. In that paragraph which is headed "Meeting at Shlanganani Hall eSikhawini" you say that in late February or early March 1992 you attended a meeting: "and the people present were Chief Mataba, Mrs Mbuaze, Mr Bebe Biele, Mr Ginam Mkhize, Brian Mkhize, Victor Buthelezi and myself" do you remember that? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR HEWIT And then on paragraph 24 of your affidavit you state that at that meeting it was further suggested by Mrs Mbuaze that "firearms and explosives as well the names of persons to be eliminated be kept by ourselves" do you remember that? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR HEWIT And then you stated also in that paragraph "the names of the persons suggested to be eliminated was Captain Masinga, Captain Manzini and Sergeant Dlamini" MR MBAMBO Yes. MR HEWIT So was it decided at that meeting, which is February or March '92, that Dlamini was to be murdered? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR HEWIT When was Dlamini actually murdered? MR MBAMBO In 1993. MR HEWIT What month in 1993? MR MBAMBO I think it was between June and May. MR HEWIT And once you'd received an instruction to eliminate someone, did you have to obey that instruction? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR HEWIT You couldn't disobey it under any circumstances? MR MBAMBO No. MR HEWIT Could you quarrel with that instruction? MR MBAMBO We were expected to do as we were instructed and that's it. MR HEWIT You couldn't persuade the hierarchy not to carry out the instruction or that they should abandon the instruction? MR MBAMBO No, we would not, we would only suggest. MR HEWIT Well please have a look at paragraph 29. In paragraph 29 you state "The list of names that were discussed at the first meeting were handed to us by M Z Khumalo and he asked us whether we knew these people" do you remember saying that? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR HEWIT Now do you remember when that meeting was in relation to the first on in February or March '92? How long after was that second meeting? MR MBAMBO Two weeks did not lapse before we were called to Ulundi. MR HEWIT And then in that paragraph you say "We informed him that we all knew of them except Mgwaie. We then discussed Detective Sergeant Khumalo and we informed them that we were not quite satisfied that he was involved with the ANC and that we would wanted a chance to monitor his movements" MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT Didn't you raise those objections at the first meeting? MR MBAMBO No. MR HEWIT Why not? MR MBAMBO There was no opportunity to suggest that. MR HEWIT Is that because you didn't have any role of questioning orders, you just simply had to accept them and carry them out? MR MBAMBO We had an opportunity. MR HEWIT Well why did you at the second meeting tell you that you weren't going to carry out the order in effect? MR MBAMBO This would not be accepted, it would actually upset the local leadership because they were the ones who were directly involved pertaining to Sergeant Khumalo. And the leadership at Ulundi got information from the eSikhawini local leadership. If the leadership at Ulundi advised that we did not continue with the killing of Sergeant Khumalo and if the eSikhawini leadership suggested that we continue, the Ulundi instruction would outweigh that from eSikhawini and therefore we would follow the Ulundi instruction. MR HEWIT Who actually finally decided that Dlamini should be killed? MR MBAMBO I on that day had a meeting with Captain Masinga, my branch commander. MR HEWIT Yes, carry on. And? MR MBAMBO After the discussion I went to Ginam Mkhize's office at the Reaction Unit and we left for Mrs Mbuaze's place and informed her and after that the three of us went to Shlanganani Hall where she phoned Brigadier Umzumela and after that a call came from Ulundi and that was Captain Langene on the line and he gave an instruction to ...[indistinct] Mkhize that Sergeant Dlamini must have been killed by Monday. That was on a Friday, that day. MR HEWIT In paragraph 110 of your affidavit you deal with this raid on your home where various white policemen arrived and found weapons in your home, correct? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT Now when did that occur? MR MBAMBO It happened in '93 but I cannot remember exactly when. MR HEWIT Was it shortly before Dlamini was murdered? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT Now this raid on your home by these white policemen, Sergeant Dlamini was outside the home when they entered your home, destroyed the door and found the guns, correct? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT And how long before that then was he killed, a day, two days? MR MBAMBO No, I would not say, maybe a week or two must have lapsed or a month, I cannot be sure. MR HEWIT And was that the incident where you saw him outside your home? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT Was it obvious to you that he had brought these policemen to your home on a report by him that you had unlawful firearms in your possession? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT Now that is what, in April '93? MR MBAMBO I would not say: "no" if you say that. MR HEWIT What monitoring did you do of Sergeant Dlamini between February and March of 1992, before this raid on your home in '93? MR MBAMBO Nothing. MR HEWIT So you persuaded the leadership in February or March '92 that Sergeant Dlamini shouldn't be eliminated immediately but that you should monitor his activities before he was eliminated, is that correct? MR MBAMBO We are talking about Sergeant Khumalo? CHAIRPERSON Paragraph 29 Mr Hewit, it says that they were talking about Detective Sergeant Khumalo. MR HEWIT May I refer also to that paragraph Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR HEWIT In paragraph 25 at the same meeting where you say "Brigadier Umzumela mentioned that Masinga, Mazini and Dlamini were to be eliminated" You say in paragraph 25: "The names person decided on by the local leadership above were" and then you mention Captain Masinga again, then you mentioned Detective Sergeant Khumalo and you also mentioned Sergeant Dlamini, is that correct? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR HEWIT So both Khumalo and Dlamini were selected and an instruction was given to you and other members of the hit squad to eliminate him, according to the dates, during late February or early March 1992? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT Right, now what I want to know is what did you do about eliminating Dlamini between February or March 1992 and the time in 1993 when these policemen raided your home and found unlawful firearms in your possession and Dlamini was outside and it was obvious to you that Dlamini had brought them there? MR MBAMBO It was to monitor him, trying to kill him but we failed. MR HEWIT Are you saying that for that entire year before, between the two dates, you were trying to kill him? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR HEWIT How did you fail? MR MBAMBO He had two houses, one in J2 and another one is H1 and his legal wife resided in H1 and she was a police woman at the KwaZulu Police and the house is just in front of the police station gate. ...[indistinct] he resided with his second wife. If he was in H1 it would be very difficult to attack him there because first of all his house was opposite the police station. Secondly his wife was a police and because of that we would not attack his home. And in J2 he never used to frequent the place and therefore it would be difficult to establish as to which house he was at what time. And thirdly there was also Constable Skanjiso who was also a Caprivian but he was not within our hit squad because he was drinking excessively and he was always next to Dlamini. They drank together and moved around together a lot. Even when we came across his car with an intention of hitting it, Skanjiso would be inside the car and therefore we would abort the operation. These are some of the things that prohibited us from carrying out our duty and we also had something else to do at the same time. MR HEWIT So how many attempts were made between the time that he was, his name was put up for elimination and the police raided your home for the illegal firearms? MR MBAMBO Four times. MR HEWIT And on the actual day which you did kill him the operation seemed to go incredibly smoothly, without any hitches at all, is that correct? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR HEWIT And the day that you killed him was a short time after he brought the police, the white policemen to your home where they found illegal firearms? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT And are you saying that it was just a coincidence, nothing more than a coincidence that he was killed after you had been found in possession of unlawful firearms? MR MBAMBO Yes, I can say that. MR HEWIT You say that his murder, very shortly of that incident, had absolutely nothing to do with that incident? MR MBAMBO No, what he did at my house after for example having reported to Mrs Mbuaze, she reported to Brigadier Umzumela and Brigadier Umzumela requested that myself and Mr Mbuaze come to his office. On arrival he reprimanded from the time when I entered his office until I left, saying that he had long issued an instruction that the person should be killed and what were we waiting for. He said we were not sharp anymore and he then sent me to go to Mrs Mbuaze at Ulundi and obtain a statement about what Sergeant Dlamini did at my house and he was going to file this statement in the BSI file. That would be the file to the effect that instructions to the death of Mr Dlamini had to be carried out. I indeed went to Ulundi and wrote the statement and I brought it back to Brigadier Umzumela. I think the statement is still in the file if it had not been removed. MR HEWIT In paragraph 115 of your affidavit you describe your working clothes and there you say "I woke up, put on my working clothes which are my balaclava, black tracksuit pants and a grey jacket" is that the attire which you donned every time you went out on an assassination? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR HEWIT Then in paragraph 117 of your affidavit where you actually deal with the murder of Sergeant Dlamini, at the end of that paragraph you say "He did not answer me but he took Mtetwa's 9mm service pistol and went back inside the house and fired one shot and then came out. Israel then jumped the fence into Sergeant Dlamini's neighbour's yard and broke the outside light" do you remember that? MR MBAMBO Yes, I do. MR HEWIT "He came back to us and then he took my head under his right armpit and covered me with a jacket to conceal my identity as I was very well known in that area because of my being very fair and well built" is that correct? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT Can I assume then that when you went to murder Sergeant Dlamini you weren't wearing your working clothes, namely a balaclava over your head to conceal your identity? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT Well now it seems to me that the murder of Sergeant Dlamini does not appear to have been executed in a professional way as if it was simply a political assassination. It seems to me that this murder was effected out of anger and rage because he'd done his duty as a policeman and brought policemen to you home to find illegal weapons. Can you explain why you didn't take precautions by covering your identity to go and murder this person? MR MBAMBO Firstly, I was wearing the camouflage that I usually used but I did not have my balaclava on. If you still remember very well, on leaving the house we did not have an intention to kill Ndanda and Sergeant Dlamini but we were accompanying Xena to look for Lamula, not with the intention to kill him but they had to have a fair fight. That is the reason why we went with Allie who was not a member of the hit squad. And when we were at Paul's shebeen and Xena was at Nbula's in the house and Ndanda came, after having looked for him for some time I therefore did not see reason to let go of that opportunity. I then went to Ndanda, myself and Israel as I appear here with not disguise. That is why when I called him, on turning to face us he recognised me and he tried to draw his gun. After that we then went back to J2 where I resided. And because we had just completed a successful operation we then decided to go via Dlamini to check if he was not home and we also carried out an attack there. Xena has already explained that he shot twice using a shotgun. He was shooting upwards knowing that nobody was going to hurt with these two shots, so that Sergeant Dlamini should answer and that would indicate to us as to his presence and we were hoping that he would shoot back but he instead insulted us. I agree with you that it was unprofessional, the manner in which we carried out our attacks in these two places because we did not have an intention of hitting them when we left the house. That is why those two cases landed us in jail, yes I agree with you. MR HEWIT Before the police came to your home, the white policemen came to your home and found the firearms, you had not personal problem with Dlamini? MR MBAMBO Not at all. MR HEWIT There was no ill feeling between the two of you? MR MBAMBO No, not at all. MR HEWIT It was simply a job of work, that you'd been told to kill him? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR HEWIT After the policemen came to your home, and in doing so they smashed down your door as I gather. MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT And it appeared to you then that you were going to be arrested initially? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR HEWIT You then see that the person that is responsible for all of this is Dlamini outside. MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT I presume that at that point your feelings for him became a little more personal, you must have been annoyed with them then. MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR HEWIT So the first time that a dislike or a hatred or an annoyance with Dlamini came into the picture was the very night when the police burst into your home and found you in possession of unlicensed firearms? MR MBAMBO Yes, you can put it that way if you wish but I decided perhaps that what he did confirmed what was happening at the Goldstone Commission because Goldstone, Dlamini was working hand in hand with Goldstone initially pertaining to the investigation reference to the hit squad. And what he did to me, he did not only do it because I am Romeo Mbambo. He could have done it if it were Ginam Mkhize who had an arms cache. And because the firearms were at my place he decided to bring them to my place, not because I am Romeo Mbambo. And for example, I can say he was continuing to fight the hit squad and the IFP. MR HEWIT Anyway, the point of the matter is that the very first time you tried to kill him after you had a personal reason to dislike him, namely after the raid on your home and the firearm incident, you were successful. MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT And you'd failed on four occasions before to kill him when you didn't have a personal dislike of the man? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT And you're asking this Committee to believe are you, that your killing of Sergeant Dlamini was strictly political and had nothing to do with any personal grudge because he almost got you arrested? MR MBAMBO It is within the Committee to decide which one of the stories to believe. But what I have said here before the Committee, that is what I know to be the truth, nothing else. MR HEWIT Right, let's talk about this incident involving the murder of Nati Gumede which also seems to have a bit of a personal connection between you and him. Did Nati Gumede know that you were a member of a hit squad when you bought this VW Jetta from him? MR MBAMBO I don't know. MR HEWIT You have no reason to believe that he was aware of your secret life? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR HEWIT As far as you were concerned he was just conducting a commercial transaction with an ordinary person? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR HEWIT Why then do you assume that when he blamed you over the BMW and reported you to the police regarding this BMW and a criminal activity, that he was acting in pursuance of some ANC/UDF plot against you? Why did you think politics came into it at all? MR MBAMBO After Captain Langene had told Ginam Mkhize that we should monitor Nati and establish whereas he came from and what reasons did he have for telling lies about me and we started doing exactly that. The first person that we spoke to was Andile Xele who told us that he knew Nati Gumede from Langezwa and he knew that he was an ANC Youth at Langezwa and he's also one of the ANC members that they were fighting now that he fled and settled in Durban. From then on we started monitoring him and find out what reasons he had. One day in the evening Zwele, Dlamini and myself together with Israel Hlongwane as well as Principal Mbambo who leader of the IFP Eshowe travelled in his car to Langezwa going to Nati Gumede's place. It was in the evening. On arrival we found two cars and we knew that those cars belonged to the ANC offices in Empangeni. It was a white Ford Meteor with a black stripe down and a red Ford Escort. And we went back. This happened and Xena was reporting everything to Ulundi until we were summoned to Ulundi by Prince Gideon Zulu. And on arrival there we were given this instruction and Dalaxolo Luthuli was also present. The instruction was that we should go and kill Nati Gumede ...[intervention] MR HEWIT You've given us all this evidence before. Basically what you're saying is that because you saw that there was a red Ford Escort and a black and white Ford Meteor parked in his yard and that these same vehicles had been parked outside the ANC Regional Office, you concluded that he must be a member of the ANC, is that what you're saying? MR MBAMBO Yes. CHAIRPERSON We also have information that he was ANC Youth fighting at Shlangeni. MR HEWIT So established he's ANC? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT And right. So then in paragraph 104 then, you say that you reported this whole thing, your observation of Nati Gumede, back to Captain Langene by telephone, is that right? MR MBAMBO Yes, Ginam Mkhize did this. MR HEWIT And then you say "He asked us what our decision was on the whole thing" is that right? MR MBAMBO That was on the first report, that's Ginam to Captain Langene. MR HEWIT So Langene didn't tell you to assassinate this man then and there because you now established he is ANC? MR MBAMBO Those were the first developments and we continued with those. Finding the ANC vehicle at his home happened a while after we'd been told by Andele Xele what he knew about him. Therefore the conversation between Xele and Captain Langene concerned the very first developments. Subsequent to other developments we were then summoned to Ulundi and it was at that time that we received an instruction to kill him. MR HEWIT Yes, and that suggestion was made by Luthuli wasn't it? MR MBAMBO It was Prince Gideon Zulu and Dalaxolo Luthuli. MR HEWIT Well in paragraph 106 of your affidavit you say this "We discussed my arrest and they showed their anger with Nati Gumede. Dalaxolo Luthuli said that we should eliminate Nati Gumede" is that correct? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT So was he the first person that said that the way to deal with this problem was to kill the man? MR MBAMBO No. Dalaxolo said this after he'd been reprimanded heavily by Prince Gideon Zulu. MR HEWIT Well who before Luthuli said: "Kill Gumede"? MR MBAMBO Prince Gideon Zulu. MR HEWIT Well that's not how your affidavit reads. MR MBAMBO I agree with what you say. MR HEWIT You agree that in your affidavit you make it clear that the suggestion to kill starts with Luthuli, at paragraph 106? MR MBAMBO But Prince Gideon Zulu was the first to suggest because he was going to give us the car. MR HEWIT So is your affidavit incorrect then? Because in the previous paragraph ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Perhaps if he could be given that - do you have a copy of the affidavit before you Mr Mbambo? MR MBAMBO I don't. CHAIRPERSON I think Mr Hewit, it would be easier if he had a copy. It's paragraph - are you busy with paragraph 106? MR HEWIT I think in fairness to the witness Mr Chairman, I should probably start at paragraph 104. CHAIRPERSON Yes. It's paragraph 104 of your affidavit that's page 46 of the record, page 44 of your affidavit. MR HEWIT Do you have that affidavit in front of you Mr Mbambo? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR HEWIT Right, paragraph 104 reads as follows "We reported the whole observation on Nati Gumede to Captain Langene by telephone and he asked us what was our decision on the whole thing. We told him that we have not yet come up with a decision. He told us to keep an eye on Nati Gumede and watch his movements carefully" is that correct? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR HEWIT So you confirm that even though it was reported to Nati Gumede, sorry, to Captain Langene, that Nati Gumede now was obviously ANC because these vehicles were seen outside his home, he did give you an instruction then to kill the man? Do you agree with that? MR MBAMBO I do. MR HEWIT Right. Proceed to paragraph 105. You then say "During May '93 Brian and myself got a message from Israel that we had to report at the IFP office at Empangeni the following morning" is that correct? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT "The following morning we went to the IFP offices. Zweli Dlamini told us that Prince Gideon and Captain Langene have requested to see us. Zweli offered about R200 to us as bus fare to go to Ulundi to meet Prince Gideon Zulu and Captain Langene" is that right? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT "We arrived at Ulundi and went to the KwaZulu Legislative Flats occupied by Ministers, where Mrs Mbuaze was staying" is that correct? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT "We told her about our meeting which was to take place with Prince Gideon and Captain Langene" correct? MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT "Mrs Mbuaze gave us her Toyota Corolla to drive to Prince Gideon's house" MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT Another incident where she doesn't seem to worry about this hit man, you, driving her car, which is known? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT "We first drove to Dalaxolo Luthuli's home and discussed my arrest with Dalaxolo Luthuli" correct? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT "Dalaxolo told me that all the hit squad hierarchies were perturbed at my arrest" MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT "We asked him if he knew about the meeting that was to take place between us and Prince Gideon Zulu and Captain Langene" correct? MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT "Dalaxolo told us that he knew of the meeting and he told us to go to Prince Gideon's home to wait for him there as he was going to be there as well" is that correct? MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT "We then went to Prince Gideon's home. MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT "Prince Gideon was not there" MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT "We waited for him at his house until he arrived at 17H00" MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT "Prince Gideon greeted us" MR MBAMBO Yes. MR HEWIT "Shook hands and was very delighted to see us there" MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT "And he said that he was very delighted with the jobs that we were doing in Empangeni and surrounding areas" MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT "People present at that meeting were Prince Gideon Zulu, Dalaxolo Luthuli, Robert Umzumela the Secretary, Chief Kawula, Captain Langene, Mr Niauza, Chief Biela and Brian Mkhize and myself" MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT And then you say this in paragraph 106 "We discussed my arrest and they showed their anger with Nati Gumede" MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR HEWIT Then you say "Dalaxolo Luthuli said that we should eliminate Nati Gumede" MR MBAMBO Yes. MR HEWIT So he is the first man that says: "Kill the person", not Prince Gideon Zulu. MR MBAMBO No. ADV MOTATA No, in fairness Mr Hewit, you should also have in the background that the tenor of his evidence was that Prince Gideon Zulu would never speak directly, he would speak through Dalaxolo Luthuli, in fairness to the witness. MR HEWIT I don't - I'll deal with that in argument, I don't propose to deal with that now. Was it Dalaxolo Luthuli who raise the question of the assassination? MR MBAMBO Prince Gideon Zulu did. ...[intervention] MR HEWIT In his words he spoke first, not Dalaxolo Luthuli? MR MBAMBO He was reprimanding Dalaxolo saying: "Why have you waited so long to kill this person. Then Dalaxolo reprimanded us. Xena then mentioned that ...[end of tape] ...[inaudible] for us to take or to travel with to Durban. MR HEWIT Well I'm happy with the different answers that you've given. Would you bear with me Mr Chairman? I want to go to paragraphs 7 and 8 of your affidavit now, and in particular paragraph 6 of your affidavit. I want to start with the last part of that where you are dealing with your association with this Mr Umvuyana. Do you see that? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR HEWIT Now Umvuyana is deceased isn't he? MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT Right, you say at the bottom of paragraph 6 "Whilst in the KwaZulu Police there were moves by the South African Police to suspend Umvuyana for numerous offences which he'd allegedly committed around kwaMakutha, Lamontville, Umlazi and Umbumbulu" MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT Was Umvuyana at that stage a fugitive from the police, was he on the run? MR MBAMBO No. MR HEWIT Was he a member of the South African Police? MR MBAMBO No. MR HEWIT Was he a member of the KwaZulu Police? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR HEWIT Well, what - did the South African Police want to arrest this man? Tell us, what were the South African Police interested in him for? MR MBAMBO He was wanted for crimes committed in kwaMakutha, Umbumbulu, Lamontville and Umlazi. He had 36, 35 cases against him, 35 or 35. MR HEWIT Were some of those cases, to your knowledge, for theft and armed robbery as well, alleged theft and armed robbery? MR MBAMBO I knew about murders. MR HEWIT Any other crimes that he was allegedly hunted for or wanted for? MR MBAMBO I do not know of any. MR HEWIT Anything, any crimes involving motor vehicles? MR MBAMBO No, I don't know about that. MR HEWIT It could be so but he didn't tell you about it, is that what you're saying? MR MBAMBO It could happen. MR HEWIT Go to paragraph 7, you say "During 1990 when I made an application to join the KwaZulu Police, the then Chief Minister and Minister of the KwaZulu Police, Doctor G M Buthelezi called Constable Umvuyana up to Ulundi and offered him a position at Ulundi" MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT Is this what Umvuyana told you? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's true. MR HEWIT You weren't present when Doctor Buthelezi spoke to him? MR MBAMBO I was not present in the office but I was around the premises at Ulundi and the KwaZulu Parliament. MR HEWIT Yes. Alright, anyway it was Umvuyana who told you that Doctor Buthelezi wanted to see him? MR MBAMBO Yes, and he went into his office. MR HEWIT Right. Then you say "Doctor Buthelezi offered him a position at Ulundi as Doctor Buthelezi refused to suspend him" is that correct? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR HEWIT "I accompanied him to the Chief Minister's office at Ulundi and I waited in the vehicle when he went up to see the Chief Minister" MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT You stayed in your vehicle, the vehicle the entire time? MR MBAMBO No. MR HEWIT Well while you waited for him, were you not in your vehicle? MR MBAMBO I was but I did not spend the rest of the time in the car, I got out of the car at some point. MR HEWIT Did you park the car outside the building? MR MBAMBO Yes that is correct. MR HEWIT In the road? MR MBAMBO In a parking area just near the building. MR HEWIT Right. And when you got out, did you just get out to stretch your legs and walk around the area where the car was parked? MR MBAMBO No, I went with him to the entrance and there were police there and it was just himself and he also introduced me and he explained whom he had come to see and was searched and they took his gun. He went ahead and I remained behind. After a while I went back to the car. MR HEWIT Alright, so I gather from what you're saying, you did not enter the building? MR MBAMBO No. MR HEWIT And at no stage did you enter the building? MR MBAMBO No. MR HEWIT And at no stage did you see Doctor Buthelezi? MR MBAMBO No. MR HEWIT Everything you're telling us here about what transpired, if it transpired at all between Doctor Buthelezi and Umvuyana, is what this dead man Umvuyana told you according to you? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR HEWIT Right, now let's carry on with this paragraph. "I accompanied him to the Chief Minister's office at Ulundi and waited in the vehicle when he went up to see Chief Minister" You don't say in that paragraph you got out and went to the door do you? MR MBAMBO No. MR HEWIT No. "When he came back he told me what had transpired. Constable Umvuayna stated that he will only work Ulundi if he was made in charge of a unit of a branch" This is all what this dead person told you? MR MBAMBO Yes, and it did occur. MR HEWIT This now dead person, this now dead person? Correct? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR HEWIT "He was then placed in charge of a firearm unit at Ulundi which has jurisdiction all over KwaZulu Police areas" MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT "He was issued with a powder blue 4 x 4 Toyota Stout which was used by the then Commissioner of the KwaZulu Police, General Buchner" MR MBAMBO A mistake was committed here. That car eventually ended up being used by General Buchner. MR HEWIT Have you finished? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR HEWIT Anyway, the point is that at no stage were you present when the Chief Minister was allegedly having conversations with this Mr Umvuyana? MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR HEWIT Everything you're telling us is hearsay? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR HEWIT Now, in neither of those paragraphs do we see any reference to the evidence which you gave at this hearing, namely that when he came back out of this building he was carrying a lot of money. MR MBAMBO It is not in the affidavit. MR HEWIT Why not? MR MBAMBO I do not know why it is not in the statement but in the statements that I made to the ITU I mentioned it. MR HEWIT Mr Chairman, I have no further questions for the witness. I simply wish to place on record as previously, the denial of those persons that we represent and their implication and any offences that he's testified to, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWIT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Hewit. Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions to put to the witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE Yes, Mr Chairman. Mr Mbambo, I want you to turn to page ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, maybe if you swop your mike with Mr ...[indistinct] it might be better because I notice that sometimes when two are on, you get this whistle but not always. MR MPSHE I want you to turn to page 8. CHAIRPERSON Page 8 of the affidavit or the record? MR MPSHE Page 8 of the record. CHAIRPERSON It's page 5 of your affidavit. MR MPSHE Paragraph 15. MR MBAMBO I've found it. MR MPSHE I'll read that paragraph for you. "The strategy that was explained to me" ...[intervention] Mr Chairman, I've got a problem with this hearing aid. PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES MR MPSHE Paragraph 15, I'll read it for you. It reads "The strategy that was explained to me initially by three officials, Captain Langene, Khumalo and Dalaxolo Luthuli was to eliminate and assassinate specific leaders of the ANC" and then the next sentence continues: "They also stated that we were not to injure or kill innocent people in the company of the person to be eliminated" Now my question is going to be based on that last statement. "we were not to injure or kill innocent people in the company of the person to be eliminated" Do you see that? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR MPSHE Did you agree and cherish this instruction? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR MPSHE Did you, when agreeing and cherishing this instruction, take it upon yourself not to do the contrary of your instructions? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR MPSHE Did you, in the operation you carried out, desist from doing the opposite of what was told to you? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR MPSHE Then how do you account, if that is the position, the operations in the shebeen in particular? MR MBAMBO The strategy changed and it was changed by Prince Gideon Zulu and the leadership of the hit squads. MR MPSHE Now did you agree to the change of that strategy? MR MBAMBO We did no have a choice. MR MPSHE But did you find it in order? I'm talking about yourself now. Let's put aside the leadership instruction, did you find it in order to kill innocent people? MR MBAMBO I did not see them as innocent people. In the IFP and ANC person was not an innocent. MR MPSHE I'll be specific with you, if you remember the time when Sergeant Khumalo was killed there was this Mabika innocent person who was standing next to Khumalo, how do you explain that one? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's right. MR MPSHE Was there any establishment about Mabika, that he was an ANC member? MR MBAMBO No, Mr Magika's death was an accident. MR MPSHE And if then you are applying for amnesty for the killing of Sergeant Khumalo, you definitely are not going to include Mr Mabika as well? MR MBAMBO We also include him. MR MPSHE Why would he be included because he was just an innocent bystander? MR MBAMBO We include him because we no longer had control of Nglagane Mpumatengua when he shot at Sergeant Khumalo. And we did not see Mabika, myself, Xena and Bennie Mlambo. The only person who saw him was Nglagane Mpumatengua. We only heard when we went to the police station to confirm if he indeed was dead and we discovered that it was not only Sergeant Khumalo who had been killed but that there were two people who had died and one of them was Mr Mabika. MR MPSHE If you were in the position of Mpumatengua, would you find any political justification in the death of Mabika? MR MBAMBO No, I would not. MR MPSHE At the beginning of your evidence you testified that you knew Ginam Mkhize before 1992. MR MBAMBO Yes. MR MPSHE Was together in the police force, do you remember that? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR MPSHE Did you know at that time about his covert operations? MR MBAMBO No, but I knew about the operations of the Israelites and Ginam was one of the people who had been trained in Israel as far as we knew at that time. MR MPSHE What in particular besides Mkhize being a colleague in the police force, what in particular did you know about him? MR MBAMBO I didn't know anything else. MR MPSHE ...[inaudible] Mr Chairman, if you could just bear with me, I'm trying to find something here in the pages. Thank you Mr Chairman. Now you were approached by Ginam Mkhize, if I recall well, recruited by him? MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR MPSHE And at the time when he was recruiting you he must have told you why he wanted you to join them? MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR MPSHE And amongst others he told you that the killing of ANC members would be involved? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR MPSHE Did he put any pressure on you to join them? MR MBAMBO No, the only thing that he said, he first explained to me that he had seen me on a number of occasions with Sepiwe Umvuyana and he enquired about my relationship with him, which I have explained to this Commission. From then he learnt that I was a staunch IFP member and he told me that he has been making his enquiries because what he was going to tell me must be something that he was going to tell to the right person because if he were talking to a wrong person he would have to silence me so that I do not tell others. MR MPSHE At that time when he was saying this to you, had he already started telling you about their operations? MR MBAMBO No. He first asked me about my relationship with Sepiwe and about my life. He told me about the operations after he had said that if he had been taking to a wrong person he would have to silence me, but he said this jokingly. MR MPSHE When he said this to you that if he was saying this to a wrong person then you'd have to be silenced, didn't that trigger something in your mind as to something unlawful was going to be - or that you were going to be asked to do things that would not normally be done, especially when he spoke of the silencing? MR MBAMBO Honestly speaking I was already aware of what was going on and I was aware that there were people that were operating in hit squad activities and Ginam was known to be one of the Israelis. So I realised that what he was telling me was in line with all of this. MR HEWIT Then we can safely conclude that you voluntarily joined the operations or joined the hit squad, there was no pressure or force on your part? MR MBAMBO No, not at all. MR MPSHE Which would mean that the instructions given to you later on by Dalaxolo Luthuli, by Langene and others, you were looking forward to such instructions voluntarily, not that if you do not carry them out something would happen to you? MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR MPSHE You were told by Ginam and perhaps by Langene and Dalaxolo after you had been introduced to them, that your target or the opposition was the ANC? MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR MPSHE And you would kill the ANC? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR MPSHE You just told us that you agreed voluntarily to participate in the killing of the ANC? MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR MPSHE If I say to you that you agreed to join and to kill, not because of any other reason but because you had this hatred against the ANC? MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR MPSHE Mr Chairman and Members of the Committee, that will be all the questions from my side but I want to bring this to the attention of the Members of the Committee that you will recall that we had, when Ginam Mkhize had testified, we had the family member from the Khumalo family who was accorded an opportunity to put questions to Ginam Mkhize. A similar request has been made by the family members again of the Khumalo family and I discussed this with them yesterday, that the incident is the same and they had that opportunity but they insisted that they wanted to be given this opportunity again because it's a different person but we finally came to a compromise that rather they write the questions and I put them to him on their behalf. I need direction from the Committee as I've got a list of questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Yes, you can do that. Would there be any objections to that Mr Wills? MR WILLS No, Mr Chairperson, we're committed to answer any questions from any member from the floor. What I would like to suggest, I do see it's 1 o'clock and it is a taxing session for the ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Yes, no I was going to suggest that I wouldn't be doing it now as it's past 1 o'clock. Mr Mpshe, then perhaps we can proceed on the basis that you have put to us now but we will do so after the lunch adjournment. MR MPSHE Perhaps Mr Chairman before we adjourn, another directive I want. Another victim, Mr Bongani Msome also approached us, by us I mean me and my colleague, to do the same thing with reference to evidence by the current applicant and I also indicated to him that only if he touches on him, he'll only be allowed to ask questions only inasfar as that is concerned but I will take this up further with him again, to continue after lunch. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think we'd have to establish which incident was involved and whether Mr Mbambo was personally involved in that incident because if not I don't think it would really be appropriate but if so then, yes. But we will at this stage take the lunch adjournment, thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION R MBAMBO (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Sorry, could we have some quiet please? Mr Mbambo, you can take your jacket off if you wish. Mr Mpshe you mentioned before the lunch adjournment that you were to put some questions that have been posed by the members of the Khumalo family and Msome family, thanks. MR MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mbambo, I'm going to put questions to you on request by the Khumalo family. MR MPSHE PUTS QUESTIONS TO MR MBAMBO ON BEHALF OF THE KHUMALO FAMILY They want to know as to whether Sergeant Khumalo was a true policeman doing his police duties properly or not? MR MBAMBO He was known as a very dedicated police. MR MPSHE What were the sources of information within the KwaZulu Police other than Captain M A Malinga or Masinga? MR MBAMBO Apart form the MSI information at the local leadership, that he discussed dockets with the ANC dockets. There is nothing else to my knowledge. MR MPSHE Now at that time of effecting the brutal killing of Sergeant Khumalo, the rank he was holding was that of a Sergeant whilst at the same time being a branch commander of such a big Murder and Robbery Unit controlling eSikhawini, Nthambanana and other places, is that correct? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR MPSHE If then you say yes to the above question, the rank he was holding, was that the best he was deserving being a branch commander whilst his colleagues were holding higher ranks e.g. Captain Major, wasn't it showing hostility or any form of negativity by the local police management, including the Ulundi office? MR MBAMBO Yes that is correct. MR MPSHE How many years did he serve in the police being a Sergeant? MR MBAMBO I don't know but I think it may have above 10 years. MR MPSHE If you had not been found guilty or convicted of certain criminal activities excluding my brother's assassination, as you were not charged, would you have disclosed the killing of Sergeant Khumalo or not? MR MBAMBO I would not be in the position to answer that question because things that led me to appear here happened after my arrest. MR MPSHE Now had the TRC not been established to allow people to apply for amnesty as you are now doing, what else would you have been doing to rehabilitate yourself, get yourself to meet the victims or the next of kin of those killed and to establish a form of compensation to the bereaved? MR MBAMBO I would do this through the Court because statements that involve this case in the ITU, that simply means that the ITU was not investigating for the TRC but it was undergoing a Court investigation. That was the route I would take to inform the Khumalo family as to how Sergeant Khumalo died and also furnish reasons thereof and also give names of people who were involved. Pertaining to the compensation to the Khumalo family I would go back to the IFP because the IFP is a bit organisation, strong with good finance of their own and also being government in this KwaZulu Natal Province. Maybe this would have happened and I would plead that a trust be established to look into the needs of the people who lost families and members of kin during the time of the IFP's struggle, struggling for the success which they finally attained here in KwaZulu Natal. Because the IFP has contacts in foreign countries, asking for funds there, could have helped to assist the relatives of those who suffered. I therefore do not see any other way through which I can help those who suffered. I cannot do anything in particular myself as an individual but I know that with the assistance of the organisation, that is the IFP together of course with the ANC, I know that this can be a success because these people are victims of the two organisations. That's the way in which I think these people could be helped. MR MPSHE Do you remember the instance when Bebe Biela was being arrested for cross questioning by the members of the Murder and Robbery Unit under the command of Sergeant Khumalo? MR MBAMBO No, I don't. MR MPSHE In expressing you dissatisfaction to eliminate Sergeant Khumalo, your main point of argument you raised was that there was not sufficient evidence, is that correct? MR MBAMBO If you are referring to the meeting at Ulundi, yes we had a reason that I would like to state here. We knew Sergeant Khumalo as a person who was close to the IFP leaders and he used to wear dust coats, the kind of overalls that are used by people working in factories and he would also wear inside or just beneath the overalls, this IFP T-shirt, a T-shirt that would have a picture of M G Buthelezi. MR MPSHE Then if your answer to that question is: "yes", this was then accepted by the hit squad hierarchy that you were going to monitor the movements of Sergeant Khumalo and if your findings were positive you should proceed with the elimination, is that correct? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR MPSHE And again if that is how the position was to be, it is contradictory with Mkhize's evidence, Ginam Mkhize's evidence, who said himself and yourself did not have to do any investigation in implementing the killing. Thus this gives a benefit of doubt that what you are telling the Committee is true. In other words the question is that if you say the hierarchy of the IFP had instructed you to carry on in spite of the fact that you had indicated your dissatisfaction, it contradicts Ginam Mkhize's evidence who said that there was no need for investigation on your part in order to carry out the elimination, do you see that contradiction? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is a contradiction but what Ginam said is true. He was trying to explain that there was not need for us to monitor him and report to the Commander, we just had to kill him. But knowing him I want to believe that Ginam was very fond of Sergeant Khumalo. He raised that, not because it was a suggestion or Ginam's suggestion, that would not be a final decision. If for example the IFP leadership said they don't care, he just had to be killed, we would do exactly that, we would not even monitor him. MR MPSHE Mr Chairman ....[intervention] ADV MOTATA Before you proceed Mr Mpshe, I would draw your attention to the record, page 116, paragraph 85 where it said that - I will just get the line for you, it would be the 6th line "It was then resolved that we must tail after him in order to establish information about his affiliation with the ANC" What I'm saying to you is that if you want to further canvass that point, but it would appear from the record that Mr Ginam Mkhize also mentioned a fact of that nature. MR MPSHE Thank you, I'm indebted to the Committee Member on that aspect. Mr Chairman, this concludes the questions from the Khumalo family. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mpshe. MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, as I had indicated before the lunch adjournment about the other victim Mr Bongani Msome, I had a short talk with him during the lunch adjournment and the restriction will be to what shall have been said by the current applicant and he's said he's aware thereof, he will just put questions about what he has said about him. If the Committee permits, may he be called to the stand? He is available, he's sitting right in front. CHAIRPERSON Yes, is Msome present? Mr Msome can you come forward please? I wonder if someone could make a microphone available for Mr Msome? Mr Msome, what are your full names please? MR MSOME My name is Bongani Msome. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Msome, it's been indicated you have some questions to ask of the witness, is that correct? MR MSOME Yes, that is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Will you proceed please. MR MSOME Thank you very much Chairperson for granting me this opportunity. I would like to ask as to what is it that in the testimony of the people who are applying for amnesty, when they are asked questions or when they are giving examples, especially examples that they are giving here seem not to be examples taken from their affidavits. I am saying this because in what Mr Mkhize said and that which has been said by Mr Romeo Mbambo, it is clear that the one person that they wanted very strongly here was myself. Mr Ginam also said when he was asked questions, there was nothing that they did not do to try and get hold of me so as to kill me. They only fell short of bewitching me. I therefore want to ask as to why other similarly important incidents do not appear in their statements? CHAIRPERSON Do you understand the question Mr Mbambo? MR MBAMBO Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Are you prepared to answer, can you answer it? MR MBAMBO Yes. At the time of writing these statements we wrote them at the ITU. The ITU is this unit that was investigating the hit squad activities but they were investigating for the Court, not for the TRC purposes. We mentioned a number of things because we indicated to them that if we were speaking about only one incident there are some things that we might forget. It would be best that we should start from the beginning and explain everything and they would only take what they required and write it down and leave out those incidents which they felt were not important in building up the case. And therefore they were very much concerned about the conspiracy and the people who were involved in the conspiracy during that particular incident. And therefore many things such as that, yourself for example we tried very much to kill you but your incident was left out because we did not shoot you and we did not kill you. They were very much concerned about the cases that they wanted to investigate. Therefore I would say the ITU is the one to blame here. MR MSOME Mr Chairman, I do understand the question by I would wish that perhaps Mr Mbambo should perhaps state here as in yes or no as to whether the statements that they are using here for amnesty, do you regard them as complete or not. MR MBAMBO We are asking amnesty for incidents where we attacked. This information is complete except for example if it happened that we didn't remember certain things. Things that happened such as discussions, meetings, these do not appear in the affidavit, these are things that pertained to the political situation. For example, the plot to kill you does not appear here, that is why this was left out even though we had informed the Court about it. CHAIRPERSON Mr Msome, perhaps I can inform you that at the commencement of these proceedings when we were still sitting in Durban, this point about precisely what the applicants are applying for was raised by the Committee and the legal representatives are working on bringing out a table of incidents for which they are actually applying for amnesty. Obviously we as a Committee can't grant or refuse amnesty in respect of an incident which hasn't been applied for because in their application forms they've merely said "Refer to affidavit" for what they're applying for amnesty for. But it's very difficult because if one takes a look at a 130 page affidavit there's many sorts of incidents and we've for it to be tabulated so that's in the process of being done. MR MSOME Mr Chairperson, thank you. But I am saying this because they had repeated on several occasions that they were involved in a number of attempts to try and kill me. I lost everything. My house was burnt down and I don't even know the people who burnt my house and as to who sent them. My car was also burnt and I don't know who instructed these people to do so. My life was just shattered. I would wish therefore that they explain to the community that in their wish and attempts to kill me, what exactly it is that they did to try and kill me. MR MBAMBO Firstly, we knew that Mr Bongani Msome stayed in Gwelezane. There is a house in Gwelezane B Section where Mr M R Mkhize who was in charge of the IFP office, used to stay. We met there one day, myself and Zwele Dlamini as well as Israel Hlongwane and he showed us where Mr Bongani Msome stayed. We went to look for you there but we did not find you and on a second occasion we got an information to the effect that you were not residing in Port Dunford. It was alleged that you had a girlfriend there with whom you were staying and we went there as well to look for you and we could not find you. We also went and parked at the Murder and Robbery Unit offices at Umpangeni and we waited for your Skyline because we knew that you had a green Skyline. The offices of the Murder and Robbery Unit are closer to the ANC unit at Empangeni. We saw your Skyline and we also saw ...[end of tape] ...[inaudible] waited for these two vehicles, hoping that you would leave and we would follow you thereafter and kill you on the road. We waited there until it was dusk and we waited there until dusk and you had not left the office. I still remember very well that Ginam prayed asking you from your ancestors ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Can you keep quiet please. Could they repeat? MS KHAMPEPE Ginam had to pray to ask for ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON I missed that. I wonder if the interpreter could repeat what was said because we couldn't hear because of the reaction. MR MBAMBO I still remember that Ginam ...[indistinct] prayed to your ancestors to afford him the opportunity to kill you. After praying we stayed there hoping that you would come out so that we could shoot you because it was now in the evening. We waited there until sunrise the following day and we decided to leave. We went back to the station and Zwele went to the office, the IFP office. We did not know where you stayed then and we could not locate you and that is why the IFP plotted your arrest at the time when Mrs Mbuaze's house was attacked. At time Bebe Biela and Mrs Mbuaze orchestrated a plan that Zazi should write a statement to give to the police about the attack Mrs Mbuaze's place and state that he personally saw you attack Mrs Mbuaze's household. That was the only way that would make it possible for you to be removed. They knew that you were the strongest ANC member because you had also been fired from Enseleni. The statement that was written ended up with you being investigated and it became clear that we were not able to locate you because you came back to J2 but we could not see you. Those are the attempts that we made. That's the one attempt for example that I was involved in. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbambo, do you know anything about the burning down of Mr Msome's house and the burning of his motor vehicle that he referred to? MR MBAMBO No, I know nothing about that. MR MSOME I would also like to ask another question. According to Mr Mbambo's knowledge, how much was the cooperation between them and the SAP, because at the time when I was arrested for the Mbuaze case the people who brought the warrant of arrest to arrest me were not the ZP but the detectives who were white, stationed at Empangeni. One of them was Sergeant Masser. These are the people who took me to eSikhawini. I just want to know, according to yourself, how much was the cooperation between the police of KwaZulu and the SAP? Secondly, is it that - my arrest at the time, does it not involve your attempt to kill me because I was not called to the case to Court, I was only summoned to Court when a lawyer came and indicated that these people arrested me without any communication with you and you were not at the police station at the time. And therefore my appearance before the Court was delayed so that you could come back. And that happened exactly as I was told, that I was not going to be called among those who were going to Court and this led me to making a lot of noise. Did you thereafter attempt to kill me? MR MBAMBO ...[No English translation] Secondly, our communication and collaboration with the SAP was such that it was confined to the Special Branch of the SAP, not other units. Only the Special Branch came to Mrs Mbuaze and we would discuss the ANC. MR MSOME ...[No English translation] That my arrest on that day was not the first one? MR MBAMBO Yes, I do. MR MSOME Can you tell this Committee and the public of other instances? MR MBAMBO The other instances that I knew of was the time that you were found in possession of weapons and ammunition and IFP membership cards. MR MSOME I am speaking of a plot when my house and vehicle were burnt down. Instead of arresting the perpetrators I am the one who was arrested and it was alleged that I had weapons and guns on me but I am the one who ended up being arrested. I am asking if you have any knowledge if that was still a plot to remove me? MR MBAMBO I have no knowledge of that. MR MSOME Chairperson, I will return the Mbuaze case, whether it was one of the tricks because Ginam has indicated that they had skills of infiltrating their enemy. Maybe my arrest was one of their tricks that would have cause a division amongst us as ANC leaders. I say this because you wouldn't as an ordinary member of the public go and attack another person's house. I can also say that this has caused some divisions amongst the ANC, I was not longer regarded as I was before within the ANC. It has caused problems for me. MR MBAMBO I know that what happened at Mrs Mbuaze's house was not intended to cause divisions between yourself and the ANC because we knew that what you were doing at the time was for the ANC. We knew that the people who had attacked Mrs Mbuaze's house were ANC members because Mrs Mbuaze was an enemy to the ANC but we did not know who the specific people were. And because we had been looking for Bongani Msome and had been unsuccessful in getting him and because you Bongani, had been seen around with the boys, travelling in a white kombi when they attacked people it could be that you had knowledge about the attack on Mrs Mbuaze's house. We should just say that you were indeed seen at the scene and Zazi volunteered that he will write the statement. We in fact assumed that the ANC had attacked Mrs Mbuaze's house, we were not sure. MR MSOME Would I be wrong to say that people who attacked Mbuaze's house were IFP members? MR MBAMBO That information is incorrect, it was not the IFP. MR MSOME But you say that you are not certain that it is the ANC that had attacked Mrs Mbuaze's house and her house was in J2 and we knew that the ANC could not set foot, it was an IFP area. Then I wonder how the ANC could go to Mrs Mbuaze's house whilst people like you guarded the house at the time. MR MBAMBO If this indeed was a plot by the IFP so that you could be arrested, I would have known about it and maybe I could have been part of the group who would attack Mrs Mbuaze's house so that we could allege that it was you. So I knew it was definitely not the IFP that attacked Mrs Mbuaze's house but a group of unknown persons. MR MSOME Let me go back to the issue of my house being burnt. In Mr Mkhize's testimony he said that amongst these five police stations the hit squad that had operated amongst this station was yours and it was headed by Mr Nagam Mkhize. I want to know, how does it happen that if something had happened or occurred at Ntsalene and the person you worked with from Ntsalene was Joyful Mtetwa, did Joyful Mtetwa not tell you that he indeed was involved in the attack on my house? Because on one occasion 11 houses were burnt in Ntsalene and the police were present amongst the group of people that attacked those houses. MR MBAMBO But Joyful Mtetwa has never told me about this. There was a group of IFP youths who worked under Joyful Mtetwa which did not have anything to do with us. It could be that it is indeed those youths who attacked your house but Joyful never told us about it. MR MSOME What you are saying is that it could happen that Joyful had his own hit squad which he commanded from Ntsalene? As you said in your testimony that you received certain guns and weapons from Joyful, so it could happen that there was another hit squad commanded by Joyful? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is so. MR MSOME Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MSOME CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Msome. Mr Wills, do you have any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS Yes, thank you Chairperson. Mr Mbambo, just to go back to the incident of the policeman who committed suicide, was his name Constable Madondo? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. We used to call him 4 x 4. MR WILLS The issue of your motor vehicles, you bought the VW Jetta for R4 000, is that correct? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR WILLS And that the BMW you bought was for an amount of R38 000, is that correct? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR WILLS And you paid for this by a deposit which you'd saved up, or just explain to us how you paid for it? MR MBAMBO I paid a deposit and then I thereafter paid instalments, monthly instalments. MR WILLS And was this through a financial institution? MR MBAMBO Yes. MR WILLS Now, Mr Hewit was asking you questions relating to your frequent or the fact that you spent so much time with Mrs Mbuaze. Can you explain as to why, or some of the reasons as to why you spent so much time with Mrs Mbuaze? MR MBAMBO Firstly, it was because I was a hit squad member. Secondly, because I resided near her home in J2. Thirdly, Mrs Mbuaze could not travel along to Empangeni and to the city, therefore if she wanted to go to town to pay her accounts and do her groceries, I would accompany her. Other than that we also attended meetings together or sometimes I would drive her to Ulundi and fetch her from there or I would take her to Chief Nzuza's place or to Chief Machaba's place at Injuni. MR WILLS From your evidence it's clear that at least some of the time you spent with Mrs Mbuaze was to protect her, is that correct? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is so. MR WILLS Is it not so that one of the specific instructions given to Mr Hlongwane was to be stationed at Bebe Biela's house for the specific purpose of guarding him? MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR WILLS And I take it that these two people would be happy with that arrangement? I mean Mrs Mbuaze and Mr Biela? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR WILLS Now the other thing is that Mrs Mbuaze lived in J2 Section, is that correct? MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR WILLS This was the one area in eSikhawini which was IFP controlled? MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR WILLS Now Mr Hewit also cross-examined you at reasonable length surrounding the issue of the meeting between Umvuyana and your information that he'd met with Mr Buthelezi in Ulundi, do you recall that? MR MBAMBO Yes, I do. MR WILLS And he indicated that all the information that you got from Umvuyana you related to hearsay from what he referred to as being: "a dead person", is that correct? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR WILLS I want to know - you make two allegations in your affidavit and in your viva voce evidence that I just want you to confirm, the one is, was it a fact that Umvuayna was given this permission, this position as Branch Commander of the firearms unit, and that can be established, in fact that's not hearsay? MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR WILLS And was it also a fact that he was issued this powder blue, I think you said, 4 x 4 vehicle? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. It had a picture of a bull's horn on the sides of the doors. MR WILLS You actually saw this, this isn't just what you heard from somebody else? MR MBAMBO Yes, I saw it. MR WILLS Now, I want to turn to the issue of Nati Gumede and if the Court will, sorry, if the Committee will bear with me, I want to refer again to that volume that - I think it's the 3rd volume, if we could just for ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Just call it the documents. MR WILLS Thank you, the documents bundle, to page 37 and I want to - I don't think we have a spare copy, but I'm going to read something which I want you to confirm and listen to it carefully, whether or not this happened in the Court. And I'm reading from Judge van der Reijden's sentence, and it refers to the issue of you getting the car and the evidence concerning his assessment of what you got the car for, okay. And I quote "Mr Myuza the driver of Prince Gideon Zulu confirmed in his testimony on the merits and before the accused were convicted, that he had placed accused number two in possession of a KwaZulu Opel Monza. At that stage of the trial, the existence of the eSikhawini hit squad had not yet been proved nor the fact that the three accused were members of the hit squad. In our Judgement on the merits we remarked on Mr Myuza's pathetic and woeful tale in which he described how accused number two got possession of the KwaZulu Government vehicle. At one stage during his evidence the Court interjected and expressed the view that his story was a fairy tale. At a later stage when it became apparent that he had been involved in the falsification of that particular vehicle's log book to cover the period of plus or minus 5 days that accused number two had the car, the Court remarked that his tale was an attempt at covering up for reasons unknown at that stage. However it is not clear why he told this Court" ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON "VK]], it is now clear" MR WILLS Sorry, thank you. "However, it is now clear why he told this Court the unbelievably complicated and totally improbable story in his attempt to explain how and why accused number two got possession of the Opel Monza. He could never concede that he had received orders from persons in authority to give accused, to give the car to accused number two" To continue: "In the absence of any evidence from Prince Gideon Zulu, accused number two's version that the killing of Nati Gumede was sanctioned by Prince Gideon Zulu and others and that he was given an official KwaZulu vehicle to enable him and his fellow hit squad members to travel to Durban to kill Nati Gumede, stands uncontroverted. Dalaxolo Luthuli, the witness called by the State conceded under cross-examination that he cannot dispute that Nati Gumede's killing was sanctioned by Prince Gideon Zulu for the reasons advanced by the accused numbers one and two" Do you recall that as being a correct reflection of the Judge's sentence? MR MBAMBO Yes, I do. MR WILLS Is it true in fact that this is what happened? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS So the Judge's finding in this regard was an accurate, an accurate assessment, he had uncovered what actually happened? MR MBAMBO Yes, that's correct. MR WILLS Thank you. Now in answer to a certain question put to you by the Evidence Leader, Advocate Mpshe, I'm not sure if you understood the question clearly and I just want to clarify it. He asked you - and I can't remember the details of his question, about why you got involved in these killings and you said that it was for the sole reason or you conceded that it was for the sole reason of your hatred for the ANC. Was that what you wanted this Committee to understand? MR MBAMBO No. MR WILLS Can you just briefly explain what were your reasons? MR MBAMBO What I was trying to explain was that I did this for the reason that I wanted to carry out the objectives of the IFP and I did this as a member of the hit squad instructed by the IFP leadership. I was trying to show that - I do not want to deny that I did hate the ANC from the time that I grew up until I became a KwaZulu policeman, but throughout my fighting with the UDF when we were still fighting using stones, I had never killed a UDF or ANC person until such time that I became involved in the hit squad's structure, working under the instruction of the IFP leadership and the KwaZulu Police. That was the only time when I started killing people but I was not just killing them from personal hatred but from instruction from the IFP leadership. That is what I was trying to explain. MR WILLS Yes, thank you Members of the Committee, Mr Chairperson, that concludes my questioning. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Wills. Mr Moloi, do you have any questions to put to the witness? MR MOLOI Thank you Mr Chairperson, I would just like to clear one issue. Mr Mbambo, correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding of a criminal investigation is that it's not easy to simply put aside and discard of a murder docket, am I correct? MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR MOLOI And I also understand that it's going to be more difficult if we talk of multiple murder. MR MBAMBO That's correct. MR MOLOI You have mentioned here a number of instances where multiple murders were committed and you and the members of your squad were not charged. MR MBAMBO That is true. MR MOLOI Isn't it customary that the officers in the police force examine these dockets and see if proper investigation has been done and if there is the necessary follow-up on all those investigations? MR MBAMBO Yes, that normally happens. MR MOLOI In these particular instances you mentioned, do you know if somebody else other than you as perpetrators were charged? MR MBAMBO No, I don't know of any other person. MR MOLOI So, those dockets inasfar as you are concerned are still lying there unattended? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is so. MR MOLOI Why would that happen if there are officers in the police force charged with the duty to follow up such instances? In this particular case, why would it happen? MR MBAMBO Because the person in charge of eSikhawini at the time was Brigadier Umzumela and he knew about these cases. Secondly, Major Mxunu in charge of the Riot Investigation Unit at eSikhawini was my commander and that was the unit that investigated political murders. He also knew about our operations, although I came to learn this when I got arrested for Sergeant Dlamini's murder. I didn't know that he also had knowledge, I only knew of Brigadier Umzumela. When I got arrested for Sergeant Dlamini's murder that is when I learnt that he was also involved in these operations. So in that way I do not see how it could have been possible for the investigation of these murders to be successful if they were being investigated by a unit headed by a member of hit squads. MR MOLOI So is your answer, is it your answer that it was possible in these several instances you referred to here because the involvement of the officers in the police force? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR MOLOI Had they not known, had they not known you as the hit squad was involved, would those dockets have been ignored? MR MBAMBO No, they would have been thoroughly investigated. MR MOLOI I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Moloi. Mr Motata, do you have any questions? ADV MOTATA Just two Mr Chairman, thank you. Mr Mbambo, I just want to ask you two questions for clarification that I should understand perfectly in my mind. What you have told us is that your hit squad operations would be covert, did I understand you correctly? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. ADV MOTATA And again we knew that Prince Gideon Zulu was in the upper hierarchy of the hit squads, would we regard him as well as a hit squad member because he belonged to this hierarchy? MR MBAMBO Yes. ADV MOTATA Let's return to the rally of the 16th February 1992. Would I be correct to say the same was to take place during the day? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. ADV MOTATA And you further testified that that was intended to wipe out the ANC? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. ADV MOTATA So your operations as the hit squads, would you carry then even covert, even during the day? MR MBAMBO On that particular day we would not be working but it would be Amabuto who would carry out these activities. It would be made to seem like the KwaZulu Police had lost control of the marches and that is how the destruction had come about. ADV MOTATA Now, would the Prince, that is Gideon Zulu, carrying a 303, would that still give the public that impression that it is the Amabuto who would have gone out of control when a Prince of that nature and respected be seen with such a weapon in his possession? MR MBAMBO I think he became very emotional and therefore could not control himself when he wanted to fight back at the time. I was forced to hold him down because of the shots that were being fired from Sonebelo Hostel. ADV MOTATA At the point of disembarkment you mentioned that there was a concern or complaint by the ANC people who met you and said this is potential conflict, do you recall you saying so? MR MBAMBO ...[No English translation] ADV MOTATA When the - for instance, when the IFP people alighted from the buses and had to undertake this long march, you recall? MR MBAMBO I do. ADV MOTATA That there was a warning that this is a potential conflict situation? MR MBAMBO Yes, I do. ADV MOTATA Because Prince Zulu, as I understand you, was present, was there a word of advice to him that the ANC for instance has shown this concern? MR MBAMBO No, nobody told him that because the ANC leaders spoke to Brigadier Umzumela and other officers who were in a police casspir. They laid this complaint with Brigadier Umzumela and he appeared as a person who was going to try and fix the situation but he did not do anything about it. ADV MOTATA Let's return to your incarceration. In short, the understanding I have is that the IFP has washed it's hands of you people, you and your co-applicants, would I be interpreting you correctly? MR MBAMBO That is correct, even though the IFP tries to pretend as if they have not abandoned us because in public they speak of us as criminals but they send their leaders to the Westville Prison to talk to us and discuss the situation. We view this a mock of our intelligence because we realise that they have abandoned us although they deny this when they meet with us. Therefore I agree with you that in our view the IFP has abandoned us. ADV MOTATA And again when Doctor Sipho Umzumela spoke to you and said: "Look we are not interested in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission because that is a creation of the ANC, you nevertheless went ahead and lodged your applications with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission? MR MBAMBO That is correct. ADV MOTATA And again you find that they speak words of referring to you as criminals, that must be hurting? MR MBAMBO That hurts very much. ADV MOTATA But from a question here which puzzles me Mr Mbambo, is that you still despite all that regard yourself as a member of the IFP despite all what has occurred or obtained, you still regard yourself as a member of the IFP. MR MBAMBO That is correct. I have intentions of creating reconciliation between the ANC and the IFP. I know the workings of the IFP in and out and therefore I and my co-applicants and others are in a position to create this reconciliation between ANC and IFP members because we speak with one voice on matters that have we have experienced. If I were to leave the IFP now I would not be able to persuade other IFP members, to persuade them to reconcile with the ANC. If I were to leave the IFP I would regard it as an enemy, therefore I wouldn't be able to persuade them. Therefore if I do not leave the Party I will be able to work with them as brothers and we will be able to create this reconciliation between the parties. That is the reason. I am not a member of the IFP just because I have intentions of fulfilling the objectives of the IFP but I intend using the powers that I have. To use such powers to create peace between the ANC and the IFP, that is my main objective. ADV MOTATA Let's imagine a situation here Mr Mbambo, that with you appearing before us you have the belief that you may get amnesty, that should you get this amnesty would you find a home within the IFP? If you get out of jail, would you find a home, a warm reception other than the reconciliatory work you are doing in prison between the members of the ANC and the IFP who are incarcerated? MR MBAMBO Within the IFP I know I am regarded as an enemy and right now as I am speaking here I know that they are very angry with me but I also know that there are certain leaders within the IFP whose names I have implicated here. They are angry as well that the IFP has abandoned us now after having done so much for their organisation. I am saying this with the knowledge that within the IFP leadership at the moment there is a division. They do not seem to see things the same way because there are leaders such as Doctor Ben Mgubane, Doctor Frank Mjolse, Doctor Ziba Djiane, who are diplomats, people who are apposed to violence and people who did not know anything about this operation. But there were also warlords, Chief Mataba and others who knew about these covert operations and right now they are busy with Doctor Frank Mjolse to try and build up this movement whereas others were undermining the movement and that creates a conflict and because of that I know there is a division. Some will definitely receive warm heatedly. I am therefore not(?) prepared to go back. My intention is to reconcile the ANC and the IFP. ADV MOTATA Thank you Mr Mbambo. Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Sorry could you just keep quiet please. Mrs Khampepe, do you have any questions to ask the witness? MS KHAMPEPE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mbambo, you have testified that some time in 1992 you were given orders by Mrs Mbuaze to train a large number of young persons with a view of enabling them to engage in veracious attacks on ANC members and ANC areas. My question is, to your knowledge then as a member, as an ordinary member of your hit squad, did you think that the local leadership had authority to give you such orders? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MS KHAMPEPE Why did you think that they had such authority? Can you explain to us? MR MBAMBO The local leadership had authority to all the hit squad members based here at eSikhawini because we were working under them and they were the ones who knew everybody who were enemies within the ANC and therefore we would not have followed the instructions following the leadership's wishes. What information they gathered about the ANC in eSikhawini and the surrounding areas was received from the local leadership so that they received this information knowing that it comes directly from this leadership. The BSI itself used this information from the same leadership therefore they had, yes indeed, authority to give us such instructions. MS KHAMPEPE But I thought in the evidence led by your commander, Mr Mkhize and also the Commander in Chief of the paramilitary wing of the IFP, the authority that both the local leadership and the national leadership which we have been referring to here as the hierarchy of the IFP, the authority which they had was to identify specific targets for elimination as well as giving you instructions to engage in indiscriminate attacks on ANC people but not to train a group of young persons with a view of attacking other people. MR MBAMBO They had such authority. For example, even though they were leaders at the local level, people such as Mr Mbuaze who was a member of the Central Committee of the IFP, that was a very big structure within the IFP and within the national, at the national level. She was not only a leader at the local level but she was also a leader nationally because she was a member of the Central Committee of the IFP and we also have Chief Matabe and Mr Suba Buthelezi. They were members of the KwaZulu Legislature, that gave them the authority to be provincial leaders in all these areas referred to and by so doing they featured within the hierarchy at Ulundi, they did not end up at the local level. And you also had others such as ...[indistinct] the Councillors and G M Mkhize, Bebe Biela whom I can refer to as having had a limited authority at local level. MS KHAMPEPE This group of young persons that you trained, what were the average ages of such children, if they were children? They've been referred to as youths. MR MBAMBO None of them except for Mbambo from Port Dunford, he was older than ourselves but the rest of them, Habit Sithole was also older, they rages between 18, 16 and 20 years. MS KHAMPEPE And Mr Siabonga Mbuaze, how old was he? MR MBAMBO He was - according to my knowledge, he was above 21 but his age was restricted. He would restrict himself to 16 and 18 so that he remained a minor in the event of his arrest. He would use ages such as 16 because he had this small body structure. MS KHAMPEPE And was he the eldest of the Mbuaze brothers? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Hewit has questioned you extensively with regard to the circumstances under which Sergeant Dlamini was killed and I would like to invite your comment on the reason which was advanced by Mr X during your criminal trial, if you recall that Mr X gave evidence and advanced a reason which is different from the one that you've testified to during these proceedings. I think it appears on page 22, paginated page 22 of the documents bundle. And the reason that he advanced was that you stated that you were tired of Sergeant Dlamini and that's why he should be killed. May I invite your comment on the reason which was stated by Mr X? MR MBAMBO I cannot remember whether I said that or not. MS KHAMPEPE No, that was not said by you, that reason was advanced by Mr X at your criminal ...[end of tape] MR WILLS ...[inaudible] permission. This person's name has been disclosed at this hearing, possibly we could use that name, it might refresh. Yes, that is, I think his name is Sergeant Mtetwa, Constable Mtetwa. MS KHAMPEPE That's right. I think it's a Constable Mr Wills, not Sergeant. Mr Mbambo, you will recall that he was also part of the group which participated in the elimination of Sergeant Dlamini and this is the reason that he advanced to the Court for his elimination. MR MBAMBO That is correct. Yes, we were together but I did not say that I was tired of Sergeant Dlamini. MS KHAMPEPE Was Sergeant Mtetwa then not telling the truth when he stated that that's what, these are the words that you uttered? MR MBAMBO He was not telling the truth, he was trying to run away from the fact that he was a member of the hit squad and that he was present out of his own will. And he indicated that he was forced by Nagam Mkhize to accompany us. MS KHAMPEPE No, in your evidence you've stated that there was an occasion when you gave instructions for certain operations to be committed whilst Mr Mkhize was away, I think he was in Dundee on sick leave. MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct, I did explain that operation. MS KHAMPEPE Were you given permission by Mr Mkhize to give such instructions for the conduct of those operations since you were not the commander, that he had been appointed as the commander? MR MBAMBO I did not issue any instruction myself as commander but you will remember that Mr Xele who was working at Ulundi, he would often during weekends he would bring this white Mitsubishi, a minibus from Chief Minister's office, to use it on attacking the ANC. Even though Ginam was not there, that did not stop, it continued happening. That is what I was trying to explain. MS KHAMPEPE So you are in other words saying that that was the standing practice of your operation, that's how you operated and there was nothing new that you had put into effect by proceeding with the operations when the kombi was brought to you? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MS KHAMPEPE I think I only had one question which I wanted to ask which has already been dealt with by Mr Hewit, with regard to the reference to the Chief Minister in that regard. I wanted to find out, when you give your evidence with regard to the purpose for which the kombi was brought to you by Mr Xele, are you suggesting that the Chief Minister was in fact aware of the objective of which the transport was being provided to your hit squad? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is how he introduced himself to us, that is the case. MS KHAMPEPE Did he in fact explain to you that the Chief Minister was aware of the specific objective for which the transport had been provided to your hit squad? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Wills, do you have any questions arising? FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS Yes, just one question. Mr Mbambo, I want to refer you again to the documents bundle, page 41 and I want you to confirm again whether the Judge's finding in this regard was correct and it refers specifically to Committee Member, Mrs Khampepe's questioning as regards the motivation for the killing of Sergeant Dlamini. And I quote at line 15: "The lack of proper and vigorous investigations of these murders and more so Sergeant Dlamini's murder tend to support the accused's version that the murders were committed on instructions as part of the hit squad activity" Is that correct? MR MBAMBO Yes, that is correct. MR WILLS And again, is that a case where the Judge actually made a finding as to what happened in reality? MR MBAMBO That is correct. MR WILLS Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Mr Stewart? MR STEWART Mr Chairperson, I have a couple of questions which arise strictly speaking more out of the cross-examination of one of my learned friends, save that it's important - it's very brief, but it's important to the admissibility of certain evidence which will be dealt with of course in argument in due course. CHAIRPERSON As long as it's very brief because we've got to bring an end to the questioning otherwise we will continue ...[intervention] MR STEWART I'm conscious of that, thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mbambo, was it ever your experience that Mr Umvuyana misled you or lied to you in connection with how, his relationship with important people? MR MBAMBO No. MR STEWART Did he ever give you cause to disbelieve him because he was perhaps trying to be self important? MR MBAMBO No. MR STEWART Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEWART CHAIRPERSON Mr Ngubane, any questions arising out of questions put by the panel? MR NGUBANE Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hewit? MR HEWIT Certainly not arising out of those questions Mr Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HEWIT CHAIRPERSON Mr Kladla? MR KLADLA No, I do not have any questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR KLADLA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mbambo, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED RECORDING EQUIPMENT SWITCHED OFF