amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1977-08-07 DURBAN 7 MR VUSI LINDA HLENGWA 4687/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54698&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/durban/hlengwa.htm CHAIRPERSON This is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee which has met to consider an application by Vusi Linda Hlengwa. The Committee comprises of myself as Chairman, Advocate Chris de Jager as Senior Counsel on my right and Advocate Ntsiki Sandi on my left. Mr Brink are we ready to proceed? MR BRINK Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Shembe? MR SHEMBE Yes Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHEMBE CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHEMBE My full name is Phinda. (spelt) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHEMBE Surname is Shembe. (spelt) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHEMBE Thank you Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER Mr Brink, why are we starting so late? MR BRINK The prisoner was not here on time, the applicant rather. ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON The prison opens up at seven. MR BRINK Pardon? CHAIRPERSON The prison opens up at seven. MR WILLS ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON I understand you are ...(inaudible) Mr Shembe are you ready to proceed? MR SHEMBE CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHEMBE Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHEMBE CHAIRPERSON Will you please stand? VUSI LINDA HLENGWA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR SHEMBE MR HLENGWA With regard to all the counts. MR SHEMBE Can you take us as to how did you come about to commit the offence number one, that is the murder Masulele Makanja? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON I think it would be better ...(inaudible) instead of allowing him to ...(inaudible) put your questions to him specifically you know, lead him. It would be better if you led him. MR SHEMBE Thank you Mr Chairman. MR HLENGWA ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHEMBE I beg yours Mr Chairperson ? CHAIRPERSON Now if you could tell us who was the victim Makanja? MR SHEMBE Mr Hlengwa can you tell us who was this victim Masulele Makanja? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON When...(inaudible) the eruption ...(inaudible) MR HLENGWA I could say this started in 1989. MR SHEMBE Do you know which political party was this Masulele Makanja? MR HLENGWA Yes, I do. MR SHEMBE Which political party was it? MR HLENGWA He was a member of the UDF. MR SHEMBE And what is your political affiliation? MR HLENGWA I was a member of Inkatha. MR SHEMBE Are you still a member of Inkatha? MR HLENGWA MR SHEMBE In your application for Amnesty you mentioned that your house was burnt down and that thereafter ...(intervention) MR HLENGWA That is correct. MR SHEMBE And thereafter there was this attack which, there was this anger which you had inside you which prompted you to attack. Did you any specific person to attack after the burning of your homestead or you had the anger vented against the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR SHEMBE For the record Mr Hlengwa, is it correct that your homestead was burnt down somewhere in 1988? MR HLENGWA Yes, that is true. MR SHEMBE Do you have ...(intervention) MR HLENGWA That was in 1990 when my house was attacked. MR SHEMBE Do you know or do you have any knowledge as to how was that house burnt? MR HLENGWA Yes, I do have some knowledge as to how my house was attacked. MR SHEMBE Can you briefly tell this Commission as to how this house was burnt and ...(intervention) MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR SHEMBE When you say ...(intervention) MR HLENGWA I was arrested all by myself. The other one who was with me has since been deceased. MR SHEMBE You have not come to the exactly, come now to the actual burning of your homestead, how was your homestead burnt then? MR HLENGWA It was at night, we were just sitting not expecting anything and we heard some gunfire outside. Whenever there was gunfire people would switch off their lights and seek some hiding places and I was able to peep through and see as to what was going on. I saw a group of people from different directions as well as the direction of the hostel and some were coming from just above my place. When this happened it was apparent that these people were coming towards my place and I decided that we should either defend ourselves or run away. I was armed at the time, I had petrol bombs as well as self, a self-made pistol or gun and I was able to shoot at them, they got scattered. ADV SANDI MR SHEMBE ...(no sound) MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER ADV SANDI And also Mr Shembe, when your client goes further can you ask him to connect Mr Makanja to this, can you tell us how ...(intervention) MR HLENGWA I will do that in the course of time. ADV SANDI Okay. MR SHEMBE Were you able to see whether in that firing of yours on the day of the burning of the house, were there any persons injured there? MR HLENGWA MR SHEMBE ...(inaudible) identify anyone, anyone as to whether these are the members of ...(intervention) INTERPRETER Could you please finish your question? Could the speaker please finish his question. MR SHEMBE ...(inaudible) in a position to identify the attackers? MR HLENGWA No, I was not able to positively identify anyone but I heard voices that I could identify and I knew that they were the members of the UDF. As I was a member of Inkatha, I believed that Inkatha was fighting for freedom and I believed that the UDF was trying to thwart our attempts to fight for freedom. MR SHEMBE So before coming to that, how did you feel about the attack on your family toward ...(intervention). MR HLENGWA Thereafter I felt very unsafe and not free because there were these sporadic attacks. I also had some scars which had been inflicted by the members of the UDF. It became clear to me that even when I was arrested under the State of Emergency, they had pointed me out and I realised that the UDF was my enemy or our enemy as Inkatha members and they wanted to kill us. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) and general you know, I want to know for example when was he arrested during the State of Emergency, where was he arrested, for how long because he might want to make enquiries from the police whether that is true. MR SHEMBE MR HLENGWA Xhosa, no Englsih translation. CHAIRPERSON What wounds did you have? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) to say that these are the injuries he received on that occasion when people came there to attack his house and he fired and they scattered, is that the occasion when he got these injuries? MR SHEMBE CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHEMBE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Hlengwa do you, just wait ...(intervention) You ... (intervention) ADV DE JAGER MR SHEMBE You have just mentioned the injuries, on which day or on which incident did you sustain those injuries? MR HLENGWA These were on different occasions but on this particular day of the attack they were not able to injure me because I was able to defend myself. These happened on different occasions, there were many times where we had fights with the UDF, where they would attack us and at times we would launch some counter attacks or defend ourselves. CHAIRPERSON MR SHEMBE CHAIRPERSON MR SHEMBE MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR SHEMBE MR HLENGWA Xhosa, no translation. CHAIRPERSON Between himself, as we are concerned not with his political party, we are concerned about his involvement. MR HLENGWA MR SHEMBE How did you then arm yourself to defend yourself? MR HLENGWA I tried all means to get enough stuff in order to be able to fend off my opponents, or my political opponents. I got a self-made gun and I made a resolution that I was going to retaliate whenever there was an attack upon us then the UDF started being my enemy, I could not trust them anymore. As a result ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) I think you must exercise greater control ...(inaudible) ADV DE JAGER On the night of the attack on your house, you already had a self-made gun because you fired the gun. MR HLENGWA On the day of the attack, yes I had the gun, I already had it, I had two of them. ADV DE JAGER ...(inaudible) get the first one? MR HLENGWA The first time that I obtained a gun was from, when I came from detention that is from CR Swart and the second one ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER Just a moment, the first one you got when you came from the detention from CR Swart. MR HLENGWA Yes. ADV DE JAGER When was that? MR HLENGWA If I remember quite well, I was arrested on the 2nd of November and I stayed for a period of two months. ADV DE JAGER ...(inaudible) the 2nd of November of what year? MR HLENGWA In 1989. ADV DE JAGER Thank you November 1989 - and then you were released at the beginning of 1990, is that correct if you stayed two months? MR HLENGWA Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER Okay after your release, how long after your release did they - was there an attempt to burn your house? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON What happened after the attack, what was the next thing that happened after his house was attacked? MR HLENGWA After my home was attacked, I also tried to retaliate or revenge - on these the UDF members. No sound. CHAIRPERSON I obtained a gun. MR SHEMBE MR HLENGWA MR SHEMBE ...(inaudible) and to retaliate with those guns, what action did you actually do when you say you retaliate with those guns, the actual action now we want to know. MR HLENGWA My revenge that whenever I came across a UDF member, I would regard him as an enemy and I launched counter attacks on the members of the UDF. I went to Section 23 ...(intervention) MR SHEMBE CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) you came across a UDF member you would attack them, is that what you said? MR HLENGWA Yes, that is correct, that is what I said. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) a UDF person you attacked and when? MR HLENGWA The first attack, I did not attack a specific person but we were fighting. There is a school that divides us so there were members of UDF on the other side and members of Inkatha on the opposite side and we were fighting against each other. At times they would throw stones at us and we would throw them back and we started shooting at each other. CHAIRPERSON When was that? MR HLENGWA It was during 1990. I think it was somewhere in March, between February and March. MR SHEMBE Can you recall whether there was (no sound) person killed in that attack of yours? MR HLENGWA Even if there was a person that was injured or killed, it was not easy for us to look because we - after the attack the people would take their injured and run away with them and ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) know whether there were any injured? MR SHEMBE And then what was your next retaliation on the UDF people and what is the next retaliation? MR HLENGWA Yes, I could say there were people who died as well as people who got injured, on both sides. CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHEMBE ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA Masulele Makanja, what made me kill him was I was not specifically gunning for him but I wanted to kill somebody who was staying in the UDF stronghold and who was also a member of the UDF because that is how they were launching their attacks. That is how I planned to launch my attack, I did not specifically single Makanja out. ADV DE JAGER ...(inaudible) moment then. CHAIRPERSON Did you go alone? MR HLENGWA When I went to attack it was at night. ADV DE JAGER Please listen. MR HLENGWA I was with Bheki. ADV DE JAGER Just a moment, you would make it very easy if you only listen to the question. The Chairperson asked you whether you went alone, did you go alone or did somebody accompany you? MR HLENGWA There were two of us. ADV DE JAGER ...(inaudible) MR HLENGWA Bheki Patrick Zwane. MR SHEMBE Now you arrive at ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) Bheki Patrick Zwane, is that one person or are they the names of two different people? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) person? MR HLENGWA ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON No, he said he went with ... MR HLENGWA There were two of us, myself as well as Bheki Patrick Zwane ... there were two of us. MR SHEMBE Now you are at the scene of the UDF people, what action did you do as Hlengwa, tell us that? When you arrived there, now you arrived at the place, what did you actually do, tell us ...? MR HLENGWA Even before I get to the point where I got Masulele, I went ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA When I got there I shot, I killed. CHAIRPERSON How many shots? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Where, in whose house did this incident occur the shooting, where did this happen? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Is there any way in which we can identify the place where this occurred? MR HLENGWA When I went there I told myself that I was going to attack a UDF stronghold so I did not specifically know the house as to who it belonged to. ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER What section? MR HLENGWA Section 23. CHAIRPERSON Where were you living at that time? MR HLENGWA I was staying at Section 19. CHAIRPERSON What happened to the man Simiso, was he injured? MR HLENGWA MR SHEMBE Did you realise after you were shooting that someone has died? MR HLENGWA MR SHEMBE Were you also, did you also realise as to how many might have died, how many people died or you were only sure of one person? MR HLENGWA Xhosa no translation. MR SHEMBE Were you exact of the number of the deceased, how many people died at your shooting? MR HLENGWA One person died. MR SHEMBE At the time of your shooting, where was this other person who were in your company, Bheki Zwane? MR HLENGWA He was standing outside just next to the door. MR SHEMBE What was, what were you carrying with you besides the gun you were shooting with? MR HLENGWA It was gun as well as something that looked like a tomahawk, I could refer to it as an axe. MR SHEMBE Did you use, did you also use that tomahawk in your attack? MR HLENGWA Yes I did but what I remember using is the gun, I remember clearly using the gun. CHAIRPERSON What did you use the axe for? MR HLENGWA I think I hacked Masulele because mine was a self-made gun and I wanted to make sure that he was dead. After shooting him I hacked him. MR SHEMBE What did you do after you shot him? CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR HLENGWA I started by shooting him and then I finished him off with the tomahawk. MR SHEMBE What did you further do? MR HLENGWA I left thereafter, I went back home and I came across Ngamula, we went back. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) any other questions relating to this incident that you would like to bring out? You may then pass on to the next event - you know, try and make it in sequence so that we can have a clearer picture of what is happening. MR SHEMBE MR HLENGWA MR SHEMBE Was it on the same ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER Yes, can you kindly repeat the name of the other person injured which you realised was injured at the court, what was his name? MR HLENGWA That was Simiso. CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA Simiso. (spelt) MR SHEMBE CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA It was only Simiso and Makanja Masulele died. MR SHEMBE Now there is another offence for which you were convicted, that is the one of assault and robbery on Letuli, Rosemary Letuli, what can you tell us as to how that robbery and assault happened. Take us steadily and precisely as to what actually happened and your actual part you played in that assault. MR HLENGWA Xhosa no translation. MR SHEMBE And the date as to when even if you cannot remember exact date, the approximation of the date and the year. MR HLENGWA If I remember well the month was April, it was still very early in April and I would like to relate the background as to what happened that led me to that. There is a certain man by the name of Langa ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA Yes, that could be true because it was still early in April. CHAIRPERSON Tell us, where did this incident occur? MR HLENGWA That was in Section 18. MR SHEMBE What happened, what did you do on the 13th then, tell us the exact event you did. MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) he ran into whose house, this man Langa Tsele? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA At that stage whilst I was chasing Langa, Bheki Patrick Zwane came across because he had realised that there was a fight and he came, he was in a warpath also. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR SHEMBE CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHEMBE Mr Hlengwa ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) the following day. MR HLENGWA On the following day Tembi Nkosi, Agripa, Mkhize came, Tembi Nkosi, Agripa, Mkhize ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR HLENGWA Mkh, do you want the surname or the name? CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA Xhosa, no translation. ADV DE JAGER And she was staying at 1863 KwaMakhuta. MR HLENGWA INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA MR SHEMBE MR HLENGWA ADV SANDI ...(inaudible) say he did to the door? CHAIRPERSON He kicked and broke the door. ADV SANDI He kicked. INTERPRETER MR SHEMBE Now Mr Hlengwa, I understand that we are through with this issue of Letuli. There is another count whereby you killed Zwane, Gamla Zwane, can you tell us - can explain to us as to how did that come about? ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA Xhosa, no translation. MR SHEMBE Mr Hlengwa, Bheki Patrick Zwane, is it correct that he was one of your friends? MR HLENGWA Yes, that is true. MR SHEMBE Is it also correct that you were in the same party with him? MR HLENGWA MR SHEMBE But his death came about through you? MR HLENGWA That is correct. MR SHEMBE When was that? MR HLENGWA It happened between the 27th and the 28th of April. MR SHEMBE How did it ...(intervention) MR HLENGWA April 28th. MR SHEMBE Of which year? MR HLENGWA Xhosa, no translation. MR SHEMBE Of which year? MR HLENGWA 1990. MR SHEMBE Tell us then ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA That is correct I would say. CHAIRPERSON Tell us, where did you kill Zwane? MR HLENGWA I killed him at the same section where I stay, I shot him. I shot him in the street, not in the house. CHAIRPERSON Was it during the day or at night? MR HLENGWA It was broad daylight. MR SHEMBE Who was also there when you shot Bheki Zwane? MR HLENGWA There were a lot of people. I do not know them by names but there were a lot of people. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR HLENGWA I was alone. CHAIRPERSON Who was Zwane with? MR HLENGWA He was all by himself. We were drinking there. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR HLENGWA Yes, it was a joint or a shebeen. MR SHEMBE ...(inaudible) house or at the street? MR HLENGWA He died outside at the street. MR SHEMBE At the street or you were from drinking at the house? MR HLENGWA He died on the street. CHAIRPERSON When you say we were drinking, who is we? MR HLENGWA There were a lot of people drinking. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) drinking there as well? MR HLENGWA Zwane was not present at that time when we were drinking. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) your shooting him occurred on the street? MR HLENGWA When I shot Bheki Patrick Zwane it was a mistake. CHAIRPERSON Tell us what mistake it was. MR HLENGWA It was a mistake. I had a mind that Bheki was selling me out to my opponents, I was not sure but I did not want my fears to be confirmed but I realised after I had shot him that it was a mistake on my part. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) at any rate before you talk about what happened after you shot him, tell us what led you to shoot him? You thought he was selling you out to your opponents so what happened then? MR HLENGWA I had a suspicion that he was going to sell me out ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) to that. MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA That is correct. ADV DE JAGER ...(inaudible) drinking in a shebeen? MR HLENGWA Yes, I was drinking. ADV DE JAGER You walked out of the shebeen, is that correct? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) what is the intervention and between who, do you know that? MR SHEMBE As far as I understand what he is saying in Zulu he said, Bheki was not there but somebody had to go and call him from where he called him to say he must reprimand Vusi as maybe I understand, he was becoming violent at that incident. CHAIRPERSON Who was becoming violent? MR SHEMBE The applicant. CHAIRPERSON Whilst he was in the shebeen? MR SHEMBE CHAIRPERSON I see, so all right. MR SHEMBE CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) happened after that while you were in the shebeen, did you walk out of the shebeen? MR HLENGWA MR SHEMBE CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR HLENGWA Sbongeni. (spelt) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You had an argument with this boy, you hit him and you were saying that the people of the house ...(intervention) MR HLENGWA Xhosa, no translation. CHAIRPERSON What did he say? INTERPRETER He hit this Sbongeni across the face. CHAIRPERSON And then you say that the people of the house, what did they do? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) you, what did you do with your gun? MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR HLENGWA Yes, they were. ADV SANDI Did the police see the gun you had on you before you shot ...(intervention) MR HLENGWA Yes, they did. ADV SANDI ...(inaudible) MR HLENGWA I went into a blank, I only came to and I realised that I had been injured and when I went to the police, as I was still running towards them I heard some gunfire and I turned away and I fell along the road. The police came and arrested me, they also assaulted me and they asked my as to why I had killed Bheki because they were also shocked. MR SHEMBE Did you mention to the police that at one stage you suspected him of having a double agenda or double standard? MR HLENGWA Xhosa, no translation. CHAIRPERSON ...(not audible) MR SHEMBE MR HLENGWA MR SHEMBE Is it correct now that you are applying for amnesty in respect of the death of Bheki because his death was politically motivated? MR HLENGWA Yes, I have come to ask for amnesty but what I wanted to stress is that my condolences do go out to the families or the relatives of the deceased as well as their families because I really do regret the way in which Masulele died. I do understand that if that could happen to my family, I would also be as distraught as the families of the deceased. MR SHEMBE ...(inaudible) a charge also that you were convicted of, of possession of the unlicensed firearm, how did you obtain this firearm that you caused these two murders with. MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA Yes, that is true. ADV DE JAGER Your Counsel asked you where did you get these firearms so tell us where did you get it, who gave it to you, did you buy it and if you bought it, from whom did you buy it? MR HLENGWA I bought the gun from Tulani Nzama - he was staying at Mkazeni. CHAIRPERSON When did you buy that gun? MR HLENGWA Immediately after I had been released from detention, I bought the gun. ADV SANDI How much did you pay for the gun? MR HLENGWA One hundred and fifty rand. I paid one hundred and twenty five rand but the gun was going for one hundred and fifty. CHAIRPERSON The Committee will take an adjournment for fifteen minutes at this stage. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR SHEMBE Thank you Mr Chairman. The applicant would like to make a submission as far as Counsel is concerned the death of Mr Zwane ...(inaudible)one, three, four, five and six ...(inaudible) amnesty on count two. CHAIRPERSON Are there any other questions you wish to put to him? MR SHEMBE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHEMBE CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink, to you knowledge are there any members who are related to his victims who may ... MR BRINK Yes, ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Are there any questions you wish to put Mr Brink, to the witness, to the Applicant? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK MR HLENGWA I never took any radio even Rosemary can tell you that I did not, even Mr Mkhize can explain that I did not take the radio. MR BRINK MR HLENGWA MR BRINK In respect of what assault and robbery were you convicted? MR HLENGWA MR BRINK I do want to stop you but I just want to get one thing clear in my mind and the answer is quite simple so please, keep it short Mr Hlengwa. Whether or not you committed those offences, were you convicted of having assaulted her and having taken her radio, were you convicted of those offences? CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink, I think ...(intervention) MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON MR BRINK ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Yes. INTERPRETER MR BRINK Listen to me very carefully please Mr Hlengwa, when you appeared in the Regional Court at Uhmlazi, you were convicted of the murder of Mr Makanja, you were convicted culpable homicide relating to the death of Mr Zwane, is that correct? MR HLENGWA That is true. MR BRINK MR HLENGWA MR BRINK INTERPRETER MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON For which he was convicted and sentenced. MR BRINK Yes. MR HLENGWA MR BRINK Do you say that you never committed an assault on any person? CHAIRPERSON ADV DE JAGER Mr Brink? MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER MR BRINK ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON MR SHEMBE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR HLENGWA May I speak? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR HLENGWA MR BRINK ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA MR BRINK MR HLENGWA That is correct. MR BRINK Oh I see, all right. Now as far as Mr Makanja is concerned, had you known him for some time as member or support of UDF? MR HLENGWA Yes, I did. MR BRINK Had you been on friendly terms with him in the past? MR HLENGWA Yes, I could say we were neighbours and we were friends though not close friends but we were used to each other and we grew up together. We were not particularly close, we attended the same school at some stage. I knew him quite well and I also knew his father. MR BRINK When you heard the voices which you identified as those being UDF people at the time your house was attacked, did you recognise the voice of Mr Makanja? MR HLENGWA Xhosa, no translation. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR BRINK MR HLENGWA MR BRINK Were you able to identify them as specific people after having heard their voices? MR HLENGWA MR BRINK Yes, I understand that, I understand that. MR BRINK So, you say you heard voices but you identified them as voices of supporters belonging to the UDF? MR HLENGWA Yes, that is correct. MR BRINK And is that because of what they were saying or shouting or whatever at the time? MR HLENGWA MR BRINK Was your killing of Mr Makanja a vengeance killing? MR HLENGWA MR BRINK I just want to get to the question of your detention under the Emergency Regulations, is it the position that supporters in the main of the UDF would have attained? MR HLENGWA Could the speaker repeat the question? MR BRINK In regard to your detention, when you were detained you were a supporter of the IFP. MR HLENGWA That is true. MR BRINK Is it not correct that most detainees were supporters of the UDF? MR HLENGWA No, the police were arresting indiscriminately because at some stage we would get together at the prison but the Inkatha members would have their own cell and the UDF members would have another cell. MR BRINK Were you questioned while you were in detention? MR HLENGWA Yes, there were some detectives from Durban police station. MR BRINK And I presume you told them that you were a supporter of the IFP? MR HLENGWA Yes, I told them but they knew it before I could even tell them because there were certain documents that we filled in when we were arrested, our names as well as our political affiliations. MR BRINK And were you detained at CR Swart Police Station? MR HLENGWA That is correct. MR BRINK For the whole period of your detention? MR HLENGWA That is correct. MR BRINK Were you detained alone in solitary confinement or were you with other IFP people in your cell? MR HLENGWA I was detained with other people. MR BRINK But while you were in detention, were you in a communal cell or were you kept in solitary confinement? MR HLENGWA MR BRINK Thank you very much Mr Hlengwa. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON The attack that led to the killing of Makanja, was that your decision to go there and attack the people? MR HLENGWA Yes, I could say that it was my decision because I was personally attacked. CHAIRPERSON How many days after or how long after your house was attacked? MR HLENGWA If I remember well I think it was about after two days. It was after two or three days because I was planning my attack during that stage. I planned the counter-attack and I wanted it to be effective. I saw them as my opponents as the Inkatha members and that they were standing in our way in fighting for freedom. CHAIRPERSON CHAIRPERSON What were they fighting for? MR HLENGWA Maybe they were fighting for freedom but I just did not realise it at that time, I only came to know it later. CHAIRPERSON Any questions you wish to ask? ADV SANDI Let us talk very shortly about your association with the IFP, when did you join the IFP? MR HLENGWA From 1988 when I came back from prison. When I came back from prison I realised that there had been a change, there were different political groups with Inkatha on one side as well as UDF on the other side. Thereafter the others explained ...(intervention) ADV SANDI Mr Hlengwa, can you make sure that your answers to our questions are as clear and short as possible and where you can you can even say yes if the answer is yes, you can even say no and try and give us some time to take down notes as you are replying to the questions. When you joined the IFP, did someone come to you to persuade you to join IFP or did you personally go out to ask for membership to the IFP? MR HLENGWA Nobody persuaded me but I was forced by the situation where I stayed because where I was staying it was an Inkatha stronghold and my parents were Inkatha members from ... ADV SANDI What were you told would be your responsibility as a member of the IFP? MR HLENGWA ADV SANDI Can we talk now about the attack on your house and the subsequent killing of Mr Makanja by you, you say on the day your house was attacked you heard what you referred to as UDF voices, can you explain what you meant by that, UDF voices? Do you mean to say that these were specific ...(intervention) MR HLENGWA ADV SANDI You say after your house was attacked you took a decision that you would just attack and maybe kill anyone who belongs to the UDF. I understand Mr Makanja was not according to you, he was not one of the people who came to attack your house. Why exactly was Mr Makanja killed by you, why did you kill him specifically? CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR HLENGWA ADV SANDI Now let us talk about the radio, was the radio found in your house? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Just give us the name of that friend again please. MR HLENGWA Bheki Patrick Zwane. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) ADV DE JAGER Would you kindly explain, you told us about an attack, stone throwing between the two groups in the vicinity of the school, can you remember that? MR HLENGWA Yes, I do. ADV DE JAGER During the confrontation there, did you people have somebody sort of in command and who called upon you to go and gather in order to throw the stones or how did you come together and who called on you to come together? MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER Did you have a youth leader there, who was the leader of your group if you had one? INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Perhaps we can clear it up with him. Is Sheaman his name? MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER During that violent period, did anyone instruct you or tell you listen, whenever you come across a member of the UDF you should attack him? MR HLENGWA No, we used to discuss that as the youth group or youth members, there was no specific person who would give us an instruction or a specific instruction to attack. ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA Yes, we would hold some meetings where we would discuss issues or routes to be followed on that particular day or to launch a counter attack as well as with regard to meting out punishment to ...(inaudible) members of the group and at times we would work in consultation with the Chairman. If I remember very well, at times they would tell us that if you are an Inkatha member, it does not mean that you should kill indiscriminately. They used to give us those motivational talks as well as meting out punishment to certain members of the group. ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA We used to make those decisions all by ourselves that UDF members should be killed because they were also killing us indiscriminately as Inkatha members so we also did the same as a group of youths and we would go and launch an attack. The reason for that was that at times we would be with a certain group and fight against the other members then one member of the group would go out of Inkatha and join the UDF and these were the things that were causing the cracks or the break-up between the two groups. ADV SANDI Mr Hlengwa, as I understand the situation what was happening here as you have put it, there was a conflict between two main political parties and members of those parties or organisations were fighting each other and the youth in particular seemed to have been deeply entangled in this conflict, is that a correct understanding of what was happening here, very briefly yes or no? MR HLENGWA Yes, I could say that. I could say we were caught in the middle at some stage. ADV SANDI Am I correct to understand that anyone of the two groups could just kill a member from the other side even if he had not done anything to him specifically? It was enough if he just ...(intervention) MR HLENGWA I do not understand your question. ADV SANDI One could be killed simply because he belonged to a political group? MR HLENGWA That is correct, if you were a member of a different or opposing political group you would be killed because you are standing in the way of the other group. They were killing Inkatha members because they regarded us as their enemies and we were also killing them because we regarded them as our enemies. ADV SANDI And Mr Makanja was a member of the UDF, when did you become aware that Mr Makanja was a member of the UDF? MR HLENGWA Yes he was and I got to know that because I used to see him together with members of the UDF, that is the youth of that particular village. He was always amongst the UDF youth just like myself, I was always amongst the Inkatha youth. CHAIRPERSON At the time of your arrest for these offences, what work were you doing? MR HLENGWA At that time I was not working because it was difficult for us to commute from home to work but I was working at the Checkers stores at Dawnside. CHAIRPERSON When last was it that you worked at Checkers store? MR HLENGWA I last worked immediately after I was released from detention. CHAIRPERSON When was that? MR HLENGWA It was in 1988. CHAIRPERSON For how long did you work at Checkers? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA I think I worked there for three weeks. CHAIRPERSON After that did you work for anybody else? MR HLENGWA Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON For who? MR HLENGWA In Rosebank. I was working for Mr Haka in Rosebank, we were making furniture, lounge suites and bedroom suites and it was in 1986. CHAIRPERSON My question was, after you worked for checkers did you work for anybody else? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Mr Shembe, any re-examination? MR SHEMBE NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SHEMBE CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, you can move off from that chair now. MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR HLENGWA WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Yes, all right. Yes, thank you. Mr Shembe are you calling any other witnesses? MR SHEMBE ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink, do you propose calling any witnesses? MR BRINK ADV DE JAGER None of the victims present that want to say something? CHAIRPERSON There will be indicated to you Mr Brink, their attitude? MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON I will stand down for a short while for you to find out whether members of the family would like to say anything. You will call us as soon as you are ready? COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Brink? MR BRINK During the short adjournment Mr Makanja and Mr Msomi who was injured in one of the attacks have indicated to me that they wanted to speak to the Applicant and they have done so and other members of the family will do so after the Committee adjourns but none of them will be giving evidence. CHAIRPERSON Mr Shembe, you have an opportunity to address us if you desire to do so. MR SHEMBE let the world know what happened and why did that happen. As far as the killing or the death of Mr Makanja it has been clearly stated by the Applicant before this Commission that there was no personal vendetta per say between the Applicant and the deceased but the political misunderstanding which led them to resolve their differences through the barrel of the gun instead through negotiation around the table. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHEMBE That him and the deceased to end up being, the other one being the victim, the other one being the killer to have murdered Mr Makanja. Other than that they grew up together as during the adjournment the father has stated that he took both of them, his son the deceased together with the Applicant as his own sons or as his own children so it is clear before this Honourable Commission that there was nothing personal between the Applicant and the deceased, only the political difference which would have been addressed, had according to the words of the Applicant, been given the guidance from their leadership including the Chairman as he has specifically said that there was a person who was the Chairman from whom they were expecting to get the guidance as to what is the way for what, only to find that they only took their independent decisions around the street corners whereby each member of the political organisation took his own initiative without having been directed by any member of his or any senior of his political organisation to say go and kill so and so. More than that the Honourable Commissioners, the vengeance that was there in the Applicant was aggravated by the attack that had happened to his homestead the previous two days before that. That was a blanket activity which did not specifically target any individual person but directed against the members of the UDF. The acquisition of the firearms that the Applicant had, he had explained to them how he acquired them, that he bought them from a certain person and he mentioned his name for the sole purpose that because they are being attacked he cannot on his own sit idle and look his home being gutted down. On his own accord he went to acquire the firearm illegally for the sole purpose of defending his homestead. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHEMBE If the Commissioner can bear with me. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHEMBE 22 April 1990 Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHEMBE Further than that, the other offences ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR SHEMBE Though I may not be correct Mr Chairman but somewhere immediately after he was released from incarceration, that was in 1989. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHEMBE Before that Mr Chairman, there were other numerous attacks which are not relevant to the situation for which the Applicant is before this Honourable Commission today. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) the firearm was obtained to avenge this particular incident, the firearm was obtained because ...(inaudible) feeling of insecurity because of other trouble? MR SHEMBE That is correct Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER But he acquired two firearms as far as I can recollect, the one before the attack on the house and one immediately after the attack. MR SHEMBE That is correct Mr Chairman. To elaborate on that and to emphasise in that in the words of the sentencing Magistrate, he conceded that their was a climate at that time and it was accepted that there was a climate of violence in the area meaning that there were - between the two warring factions, that is the UDF and the IFP and then it happened that Mr Hlengwa was one of these parties. Not unless my Honourable Commissioners, you want me to address on specific issues, those are my instructions and my humble request from the Applicant to submit to you, thank you. ADV DE JAGER Simiso was in fact injured on the same occasion when Makanja was killed, was part of the same attack. MR SHEMBE That is correct Sir, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Have you had an occasion to look at the Act? MR SHEMBE I had the occasion to look at the Act Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON From what I understand the position this is a revenge killing. As a result of his house being attacked he made up his mind that he was going to kill whoever he could lay his hands on, it just happened that the deceased was the one who got killed. What was the political objective? MR SHEMBE ADV SANDI Mr Shembe, we have not received any evidence of Mr Makanja in particular having been involved or can I say, actively involved in these attacks, why him particularly? MR SHEMBE ADV SANDI I do not intend to take this any further but can I say Mr Makanja, was it accidental that he was shot, he was the intended target, do you mean to say that it was just accident. CHAIRPERSON MR SHEMBE CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Is there anything else you wish to add? MR SHEMBE No Mr Chairman, thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink, is there anything you wish to say? MR BRINK Very briefly Mr Chairman, I think one must accept that at the time there was an enormous amount of political upheaval and an enormous amount of conflict with houses being burnt down and vengeance burning downs and killings and vengeance killings and again vengeance killings, it just went on interminably so I think one can accept that the Applicant had a vague political motive, whether it gets over the questions of revenge is another matter which does concern me but in general I do think that having regard to what was going on in the townships at the time, having regard to the appalling loss of life and the appalling damage to property that the IFP would go on a rampage against the UDF and visa versa. This was just going on in this Province particularly. CHAIRPERSON MR SHEMBE Thank you Sir. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) there are no other matters for this Committee to hear? MR BRINK No, there are not Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...(Inaudible) COMMITTEE ADJOURNS