amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-08-04 DURBAN 6 MR MSIZI JETHRO HLOPE 1779/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54699&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/durban/hlope.htm CHAIRPERSON MR BRINK Yes, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I understand the application for amnesty relates to the conviction for the murder of Zazi Kuzwayo and Nicolas Mkhize. The application also relates to the attempted murder of C D Sekekane and J Letule and you will see from pages 128 to 132 of the bundle, affidavits from those two gentlemen appear which indicate what happened to them. The applicant in this matter ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER Sorry could you kindly repeat the pages? MR BRINK Yes. Pages 128 to 132 - the affidavits Mr Sekekane and Mr Letule. The applicant has not however been charged ...(inaudible) The next of kin are represented by, well let me say the applicant is represented by Advocate Shangweni and the next of kin and interested parties, are represented by Mr ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER MR BRINK Sorry. CHAIRPERSON What is the name of the other person...(inaudible) MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON May we proceed? MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON Are you prepared to take the oath? MSIZI JETHRO HLOPE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Shangweni? MR SHANGWENI Thank you Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, the applicant Msizi Jethro Hlope will now give evidence. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) Mr Diaz is appearing for the victims and relatives ...(inaudible) MR BRINK Well I agree with you Mr Chairman, I was told the situation as such was that he would listen and then he would change places when ...(inaudible) agree, possibly he could get a table. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) during the adjournment ...(inaudible) MR BRINK ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR BRINK Could we adjourn for two minutes or so just to see if that could be done? CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MSIZI JETHRO HLOPE (s.u.o.) MR SHANGWENI Thank you Mr Chairperson. With your permission Mr Chairperson, I would like to call Msizi Jethro Hlope who will now give evidence. CHAIRPERSON Yes. EXAMINATION BY MR SHANGWENI Msizi, do you accept the contents of the affidavit you have written as true and correct? MR HLOPE MR SHANGWENI With your permission Mr Chairperson, I beg leave to submit the original of his affidavit for the purpose of record. I think you have copies thereof. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SHANGWENI Thank you Mr Chairperson. For the purpose of record please state your name and surname. MR HLOPE I am Msizi Jethro Hlope. MR SHANGWENI How old are you? MR HLOPE I was born in 1972 on the 4th of December, in Klenaville, Nduduma. MR SHANGWENI How long did you live there? MR HLOPE I was born there and I grew up there until I was arrested. MR SHANGWENI Which schools did you attend and up to which standard? MR HLOPE I attended school at Zakele HP School until standard four. MR SHANGWENI You are presently incarcerated at Pietermaritzburg prison for the murder of Zazi Kuzwayo and Nicolas Mkhize, is that correct? MR HLOPE MR SHANGWENI Could you in your own words tell the Commission how it came that you were involved with Samuel Begezizwe Djamile? MR HLOPE Yes, I can do that. MR SHANGWENI Could you explain please. MR HLOPE Mr Djamile is my neighbour at 21 Street. Mr Djamile was a prominent member at Claremont. In 1987 Mr Djamile at Claremont, he was of the prominent political leaders for the IFP. I started working with Mr Djamile. At that time I was 16 years old and I was not affiliated with any political organisation, neither was I a UDF nor IFP member. I became an IFP member after I pointed some members of the UDF to Mr Djamile, then Mr Djamile gave me a membership card. It was in 1987. MR SHANGWENI Mr Hlope, now let me direct your attention to the events leading to the killing of Mr Zazi Kuzwayo, what happened? MR HLOPE I was coming there. I just wanted to take you step by step. MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON I think you should just answer questions as they are put to you. MR SHANGWENI MR HLOPE CHAIRPERSON The same day, was that the same day? MR HLOPE Not at the same day but he said they were going to go back - not at the same day. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR HLOPE Later the same day Vela came and told me that they were successful in their operation of killing Mr Kuzwayo and Vela told me that he was the one himself who shot at him and then he said, as they were running away from that shop they met someone whom they also killed. CHAIRPERSON What day of the week or when was that, do you know? MR HLOPE ADV DE JAGER MR HLOPE ADV SANDI MR HLOPE Yes, I did. He was a business man at Claremont. ADV SANDI Did you in any way regard him as a political opponent or enemy to you or a political organisation to which you belonged? MR HLOPE Yes, he was a UDF member. ADV SANDI Did you at any stage feel that - I mean you personally - for the background and information you have given about Mr Kuzwayo, did you at any stage feel that it was necessary that Mr Kuzwayo be killed or eliminated? MR HLOPE ADV SANDI Thank you. MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON Where does that appear? Where does that appear in the affidavit ...(inaudible) please. MR HLOPE This was the first incident. MR SHANGWENI ADV DE JAGER Could I just enquire about the previous killing. You said on a question of my brother here, that you regarded him as a political opponent - he was a member of the UDF, is that correct? MR HLOPE ADV DE JAGER And at that stage the UDF and the IFP were political opponents fighting each other in that area, is that correct? MR HLOPE ADV DE JAGER Were there also members of the IFP killed during that period? MR HLOPE ADV DE JAGER Was Mr Djamile himself attacked? MR HLOPE Yes, he was attacked several times even his houses were being attacked. ADV DE JAGER MR HLOPE ADV DE JAGER MR HLOPE Mr Djamile instructed me to direct and point out these houses, so I was carrying these orders. ADV DE JAGER Were you carrying out his orders when you went to point out the place of the deceased? MR HLOPE MR SHANGWENI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Hlope, let me once more direct you to the attempted murder of Delane Sekakane and Begelita Letule as stated in your affidavit, paragraph 8 thereof. What happened? MR HLOPE What I know is that in 1987 at Claremont, after Mr Djamile was attacked by a hand grenade, there were people who belonged to UDF and they were swearing at Mr Djamile and they were swearing heavy at Mr Djamile. I saw this happening and during that week Mr Djamile called me - he actually sent my father to call me and when I arrived at his house he took me behind his house and he asked me if I knew the boys who were swearing at him. I told him yes, I knew those boys and he also asked me if I can go with the police to point out to the houses where the boys were staying and I said yes, I can do that. And then I stayed at his house because he told me to stay there. I stayed with Vuzi Mbete and Mr Djamile came to us, he had three balaclavas and three overalls and he an ammunition inside a Standard Bank plastic bag. He gave me torch and he gave Vuzi and this other boy bullets and then he told me that we should go and I must point out the houses belonging to these boys who swore at him the other day. ADV SANDI You say after the attack on the two boys who had sworn at Mr Djamile, you went back to Mr Djamile to give a report, is that correct? MR HLOPE ADV SANDI And according to your report everything had gone well, who was giving this report to Mr Djamile, was it you? MR HLOPE Mr Djamile asked us as to how the operation went and we told him that we went well - the operation went very well - after that he gave us muti to wash and to drink. ADV SANDI My question is, which one of you as a group was giving a report to Mr Djamile, was it you yourself or another member of the group? MR HLOPE As he was asking, he was asking all of us, the three of us so we all reported this matter back - we said very well and I also answered. MR SHANGWENI Msizi, after this attempted murder of Delane Kakane and Begelita Letule, did Mr Djamile give you any money as a reward for what you have done? MR HLOPE No, he was not paying me. MR SHANGWENI In terms of paragraph 19 of your affidavit which deals with the killing of Nicolas Mkhize, could you explain to the Committee what happened before and after Mr Nicolas Mkhize was killed? MR HLOPE Yes, I can do that. MR SHANGWENI Explain please. MR HLOPE MR SHANGWENI At that stage Msizi Hlope, what other duties were you doing MR HLOPE No English translation. MR SHANGWENI That is correct. MR HLOPE MR SHANGWENI Are you saying you were a special constable for Mr Djamile, is that correct? MR HLOPE MR SHANGWENI According to my knowledge, for one to become a special constable an appointment certificate had to be issued, where you at any stage issued with an appointment certificate? MR HLOPE Yes, I was given an identity card. MR SHANGWENI When was that year? MR HLOPE In 1989. MR SHANGWENI Who arranged it for you? MR HLOPE Mr Djamile. ADV DE JAGER But was that the ordinary identity card, your identity book or was it a special document? MR HLOPE The usual one which is used by the ZP Police, Special Constable. ADV DE JAGER MR HLOPE CHAIRPERSON Who, where did you get this or who issued it to you? MR HLOPE Mr Djamile. CHAIRPERSON He may have handed it to you ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Which person appointed you as a Special Constable? MR HLOPE I was not trained, I never went to any training, I just went to a ...(inaudible) patrol and I learnt to shoot and Mr Djamile was there and then he took photographs of me and the gun was issued and given to me which was a 9mm, that was the gun I was using. CHAIRPERSON I want to know who did it, who issued the gun and who issued this document? ...(inaudible) Government authority? MR HLOPE It is Mr Djamile. CHAIRPERSON Signed by him? MR HLOPE No English translation. CHAIRPERSON Who was it signed by? MR HLOPE CHAIRPERSON Was it an official document that you were aware of? MR HLOPE MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON You can ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI Msizi Hlope, whose name appeared on the appointment certificate? MR HLOPE The name said Tembiso Mkhize but the photograph was my photograph. MR SHANGWENI MR HLOPE MR SHANGWENI What happened to that appointment certificate? MR HLOPE ADV SANDI In your knowledge Mr Hlope, did Mr Djamile make the same sort of arrangement for people who were doing the same operations as you, arranging these appointment certificates? MR HLOPE ADV DE JAGER Was it in fact necessary to protect them? MR HLOPE Are you asking me if it was necessary? ADV DE JAGER In your mind, did you think it was necessary to protect them? MR HLOPE Yes, because they were being attacked. MR SHANGWENI Thank you Mr Chairperson. With your permission Mr Chairperson, I would like to ask the applicant to state other incidents he was involved in but if it suffices to the Commission that evidence in the affidavit is sufficient, then I will not lead him in that regard. That is, other incidents as mentioned in his affidavit. CHAIRPERSON You must consider what is relevant in the interest of your client and the decision must be made by you. MR SHANGWENI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Hlope, are there other incidents that you were involved in whilst working with Mr Djamile that you can remember? MR HLOPE Yes, there are. MR SHANGWENI Could you disclose them to the Commission please. MR HLOPE MR BRINK ADV DE JAGER MR BRINK Yes, that is the point Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGWENI NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink? MR BRINK I think it might be a convenient time to take a short adjournment and to give Mr Diaz of discussing the matter with his clients. ADV DE JAGER Just for the record, the affidavit handed in, do you confirm everything in this affidavit as being true and correct? MR HLOPE Yes, I do confirm that. CHAIRPERSON MR HLOPE CHAIRPERSON Did you work for an employer? MR HLOPE CHAIRPERSON Who paid you this money? MR HLOPE Mr Djamile used to give me an envelope with the money inside. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) cheque? MR HLOPE Cash. CHAIRPERSON So you looked upon Mr Djamile as your employer? MR HLOPE Yes, I can say that as well because I was his bodyguard. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) issued with this special constable appointment before you were given a document, what work were you doing? MR HLOPE CHAIRPERSON Who was supporting you, how were you living? MR HLOPE My father, he was supporting me. I was still very young at that time, my father was clothing me and buying me food as well. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) between your father and Mr Djamile? MR HLOPE CHAIRPERSON MR HLOPE Yes, he was a tenant. CHAIRPERSON MR HLOPE No English translation. CHAIRPERSON Why was he killed? MR HLOPE CHAIRPERSON MR HLOPE CHAIRPERSON MR HLOPE Yes, I heard about it. CHAIRPERSON MR HLOPE CHAIRPERSON Very well now, were you told why Mr Mkhize had to be killed? MR HLOPE No, I was not told. CHAIRPERSON So you went around taking part in the murder of Mkhize without knowing why you were doing it? MR HLOPE I would like to explain there. I went to check if he was in his house and to check at what car he was driving. CHAIRPERSON MR HLOPE CHAIRPERSON MR HLOPE I would like to put before the Commission that it is because ANC/UDF meetings were held at his house, I think that was the reason he was killed. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) thing which you think was the reason. You were never told why he was killed, is that so? MR HLOPE CHAIRPERSON MR HLOPE CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON MSIZI JETHRO HLOPE (s.u.o.) MR HLOPE CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness? MR BRINK I think I come at the end Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Why Mr Brink? MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Are there any questions you wish to put to this witness, to the applicant? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIAZ CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR DIAZ No that is - sorry, insofar as Zazi Kuzwayo, I represent Mrs Kuzwayo the wife, the surviving spouse. Her instructions to me is that the applicant has it would appear to her, been reasonably or satisfactorily honest and truthful about his testimony insofar as that murder is concerned. She does not support his application for amnesty, she does not oppose it either, she would leave the matter in the hands of the Honourable Committee Members. Insofar as Mrs Mkhize is concerned, the surviving spouse of the deceased Mkhize, Mrs Mkhize however wishes to testify - would like to confer with me further - has not had proper regard to all the documents before us - would like to confer with me - give me a detailed statement and for that purpose it would appear that I would require much time. Insofar as the last family member that I represent is concerned, that is Mr Kuzwayo whose the next of kin of Kushana Kuzwayo, Kushana Kuzwayo being his deceased father, he also is in a position where he would required to consult with me further - would like to deal with the contents of these papers - feels that as the matter stands presently that he would like oppose the application and would like to testify to that effect. CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink, what is your attitude in this matter? MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR BRINK The application for the matter to stand down? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BRINK Sorry. MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON Do you have the assistance of an interpreter? MR DIAZ CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON MR DIAZ ...(inaudible) that will suffice. ADV DE JAGER Perhaps Mr Brink, could somebody of R and R, the Reparation Committee assist him in dealing with the victim that needs help. CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink, if somebody - is a representative of the R and R Committee present? MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) adjourn now. MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Will you make ...(inaudible) MR BRINK Yes. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR BRINK I will do. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR BRINK I will do that, yes. ADV DE JAGER Mr Shangweni, could you kindly assist me, are you applying or your client applying as a member of a political party or as a member - or as an employee of the State? If you could think about it and have a look at Section 20, Sub-Section 2 and when we resume try to assist us. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGWENI And a member of IFP. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI That is correct but the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) All we have is his word that at some stage he ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI With your permission Mr Chairperson, I need direction in respect of the matter of Mrs Pearl Shabalala. According to my instructions the applicant is applying in respect of Zazi Kuzwayo, Nicolas Mkhize, the attempted murder of Begelita Letule and Cornelius Nsomi. We mentioned Mrs Pearl Shabalala for the purpose of full disclosure because we felt that it was necessary, ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI That is correct, I wanted my learned friend to take that into account. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGWENI Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON Are we ready to proceed? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIAZ Thank you Chairman. I propose to cross-examine the applicant ...(intervention) INTERPRETER: CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) CROSS-EXAMINATION MR DIAZ (cont) Certainly, Mr Chairman. Firstly I would cross-examine the applicant in regard to the death of Mr Mkhize, Mandla Mkhize acting on the instructions of his surviving spouse Mrs Tandi Mkhize and on an aspect of that testimony supported in corroboration by Mrs Prisile Kuzwayo, surviving spouse of Zazi Kuzwayo, thank you. MR_DIAZ Mr Hlope, you have been charged at some stage with the murder of Mr Mandla Mkhize and other persons, do you recall? CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) in fact convicted of that. MR HLOPE Yes, I do remember that. MR DIAZ Apart from the judgement that I have here for the purpose of the Committee Mr Chairman and Committee members is on page 84 leading up to page 88, Justice Mitchell deals with admissions made by you to Mrs Mkhize, the surviving spouse about the active involvement in the killing of the late Mandla Mkhize. This submission having been made from your cell rooms to Mrs Mkhize as she passed by you to the toilet and in whose company was Mrs Filicile Kuzwayo, the surviving spouse of Zazi Kuzwayo, do you recall much talk in the trial about that admission? MR HLOPE MR DIAZ Do you admit to having made the admission that you did indeed kill Mr Mandla Mkhize? MR HLOPE No, I deny that, that was not the truth and I do have testimony that I can bring forth to the Commission negating that so that even the relatives should know and be on the clear that I did not kill Mr Mkhize. I deny that, I will deny it up till my death. I do feel for the relatives but I had nothing to do with his death. MR DIAZ CHAIRPERSON I think in fairness to him you must tell him that, that was the evidence that was given by her. MR DIAZ Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Hlope, evidence given by Mrs Mkhize at the trial against you was to the effect that you had made this admission about your killing, about your having killed Mr Mkhize and that you were forced to do so and that when you returned to court you would make that admission, do you recall that? MR HLOPE MR DIAZ "The accused will say that he did tell you that he was not going to hide anything but explain everything that happened". Do you recall saying that? MR HLOPE MR DIAZ I would have to deal with this in some detail. My client Mrs Mkhize says that you are not making an open disclosure truthfully, about your active involvement in the death particularly of Mr Mkhize. Do you recall on that particular day during the coarse of the trial, having called Mrs Mkhize by saying sister Tandi, sister Tandi? MR HLOPE MR DIAZ Do you recall also that Mrs Mkhize was in the presence of Mrs Kuzwayo, the surviving spouse of Zazi Kuzwayo at the time? MR HLOPE Yes, I do remember because I was in my cell and they were going past. The policeman had just taken me out of my cell. MR DIAZ Do you also recall that it was a day or two prior to that in fact, on Thursday the 7th of June as is evidence from page 85 of the record, that you were spoken to by Mrs Mkhize who asked you why did you kill my husband and that worried you? MR HLOPE I do not remember that. MR DIAZ But it was following thereupon that you called Mrs Mkhize sister Tandi, sister Tandi and you said to her you were hearing her voice calling upon you to explain why you killed her husband. MR HLOPE MR DIAZ "I heard the words that you uttered towards me yesterday that I shot your husband" Do you remember saying this to her? MR HLOPE MR DIAZ Then you said to her - words following - as follows and I quote "I did not do it of my own free will to go and kill brother Mandla here referring to Mandla Mkhize, I had been pressurized or forced by Djamile". Do you recall saying that? MR HLOPE ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON ADV DE JAGER MR DIAZ Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, that is correct, you read the transcript correctly with respect. My difficulty however is this and this is where it becomes distinguishable, my instructions are whilst those are indeed the words that he uttered, it is also true that the applicant made admissions to Mrs Mkhize to the effect that he, the applicant had caused the death directly of Mandla Mkhize. And as you would notice from a later reading of the Judgement, those admissions become clearer. CHAIRPERSON The court accepted her evidence and on the basis of her evidence, he was convicted. MR DIAZ CHAIRPERSON MR DIAZ Mr Chairman, I take you point, I accept what you say - that is true. I would simply have to leave it to evidence that would have ...(inaudible), thank you. Mr Hlope, do you recall the existence of two cassettes in which was recorded your voice wherein you admitted to having directly killed Mr Mandla Mkhize and Mrs Shabalala but wherein you indicated that your role as regards the killing of Zazi Kuzwayo and Kushana Kuzwayo was purely to the extent of having pointed the latter two out? MR HLOPE Yes, I do remember the two cassettes that were played by Warrant Officer Magaza. He did play those cassettes, I do remember them. MR DIAZ Do you stand by what was contained in that cassette as being correct? MR HLOPE Even though they played those cassettes, I did not hear properly what was being said because they were not audible because the voice there was clear that the person was drunk. Whoever was talking there was drunk. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) Warrant Officer please? ...(inaudible) by Warrant Officer who? MR DIAZ Sorry Mr Chairman? MR HLOPE MR DIAZ Do you deny that you were recorded on that cassette? MR HLOPE I do not deny that. MR DIAZ Did you ever make an admission on that cassette or any other cassette that Mr Frank Dutton had, admitting that you had killed Mr Mandla Mkhize and Mrs Shabalala? MR HLOPE MR DIAZ Sorry, were you drunk at the time you were listening to the cassette? MR HLOPE At the time that I was listening to the cassette I realised that, that was my voice but at the time that I was recorded, I was drunk. That was my voice in the cassette. MR DIAZ But however drunk you may have been at the time the recording took place, you do not deny that on that cassette is contained an admission by you that you directly killed Mr Mandla Mkhize and Mrs Shabalala? MR HLOPE MR DIAZ I said, however drunk you may been ...(intervention) Sorry, Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR DIAZ Inability to hear on his headphones. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER MR HLOPE No English translation. INTERPRETER MR DIAZ ADV DE JAGER INTERPRETER MR DIAZ Can you hear me now? MR HLOPE No English translation. MR DIAZ The question is this Mr Hlope, ...(intervention) INTERPRETER MR DIAZ Mr Hlope, can you hear me now? INTERPRETER MR DIAZ Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now? MR HLOPE Yes, I can hear. MR DIAZ Can you hear me now? Good. My question is this, however drunk you may have been at the time the recording took place, do you deny that what was contained in the cassette was an admission by you that you had directly caused the death of Mr Mandla Mkhize and Mrs Shabalala? ADV DE JAGER Mr Diaz, before proceeding, were these cassettes admitted as evidence in court? MR DIAZ ADV DE JAGER MR DIAZ CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DIAZ Thank you Mr Chairman, members of the Committee. MR HLOPE MR DIAZ MR HLOPE MR DIAZ MR HLOPE I do hear that. MR DIAZ MR HLOPE Yes, I do remember that. MR DIAZ Mrs Mkhize instructed me that there was no old lady that she ever had as a tenant and particularly not during the lifetime of the late Mr Mkhize. MR HLOPE MR DIAZ ...(inaudible) when the -sorry, do you recall that when the Chairman questioned you about the death of Mr Mkhize, you agreed that however much you may have participated in the death of Mr Mkhize, yours was not politically motivated? MR HLOPE Could you repeat that question once more? CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR DIAZ Yes, I agree Mr Chairman. Mr Hlope, what I want to show is this, you did not know of any political involvement as regards Mr Mkhize. MR HLOPE Yes, I was a member of the IFP, I was in the IFP Youth Brigade. CHAIRPERSON MR HLOPE MR DIAZ MR HLOPE That is correct that was hearsay, I do admit that. MR DIAZ MR HLOPE MR DIAZ Mr Hlope, you admitted earlier that you were paid R600-00 a month - you were given a membership card - you were given a 9mm firearm, do you remember? MR HLOPE Yes, I do. MR DIAZ But all of that took place after the death of Mr Mkhize, do you recall that? MR HLOPE Yes, I do. MR DIAZ Mr Mkhize died on the 15th of July 1988 and you were given your so-called membership identity card, firearm and overalls etc., in 1989, correct? MR HLOPE That is correct. MR DIAZ MR HLOPE Could you please clarify that? MR DIAZ Well as regards the killing of Mr Mkhize, all you did was simply listen to Mr Djamile and point out Mkhize, is that your evidence? MR HLOPE I have admitted at first that I had a part in the killing of Mr Mkhize because I went to check on him personally being directed by Djamile who was a senior member of the IFP which was my organisation and I did that as a member of the IFP. MR DIAZ MR HLOPE ADV DE JAGER MR DIAZ CHAIRPERSON MR DIAZ Thank you Mr Chairman. MR HLOPE During 1987. MR DIAZ And did IFP members carry cards to show proof of their membership of the IFP? CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) I think you want to know what ...(intervention) MR HLOPE What do you mean, memberships cards or what are you referring to? CHAIRPERSON Just listen to this - you say you joined the IFP in 1987, were you issued a membership card to show that you were a member? MR HLOPE Yes, that is correct. MR DIAZ Thank you Mr Chairman. And you say that in listening to Djamile you did so in the execution of your orders as a member of the IFP? MR HLOPE That is correct. MR DIAZ MR HLOPE I would like to explain that Mr Mkhize was involved in politics although I do not know to what extent. I had heard from people, that is the person who was giving information to Mr Djamile had given information to the effect that Mr Mkhize was involved in politics. MR DIAZ Yes but Mr Hlope you did not know this of first hand which is the reason why when the Chairman questioned you, you admitted that you only heard of such activities of Mr Mkhize, correct? MR HLOPE That is correct, I had heard. MR DIAZ You talked about how you identified a red Chevrolet that the late Mr Mkhize drove in. MR HLOPE That is true, he was using that car. MR DIAZ Do you know whether Mr Mkhize was killed in the red Chevrolet? MR HLOPE I have no truth thereof but I heard later on that he was shot in the car. MR DIAZ By saying, in the car you mean the red Chevrolet? MR HLOPE MR DIAZ How long before Mr Mkhize came to be shot, did you identify this red Chevrolet, was it a day before, a week before or a month before? MR HLOPE I saw that before he was shot. MR DIAZ Yes sorry, but how long before, was it the day before? MR HLOPE I saw it on the very same day, that is today then the following day he was shot. MR DIAZ MR HLOPE MR DIAZ Could you be mistaken about this vehicle? MR HLOPE MR DIAZ MR HLOPE Yes, if that is what you say maybe that could be so. MR DIAZ My instructions are also that Mr Mkhize did not have any or did not hold any ANC or UDF meetings at his home as you had spoken of. MR HLOPE MR DIAZ Mr Hlope, who is this person that will admit the killing of Mr Mkhize? MR HLOPE I would like to confer with my attorney before I go any further with regard to that matter. CHAIRPERSON He may well be giving hearsay evidence. MR DIAZ I accept that Mr Chairman. You see Mr Mkhize had housed a number of youths who were pursued by the police at the time and that is as much as he did as opposed to holding ANC and UDF meetings. CHAIRPERSON MR DIAZ CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR DIAZ Thank you. Mr Hlope, if I understand my instructions correctly, at some stage you had admitted and it would appear as though this is contained in the two cassettes we talked about earlier that you admitted to having shot Mr Mkhize by using your firearm, having shot him in the cheek when a tooth of his came off and fell on the seat of his car, do you remember making that admission? MR HLOPE CHAIRPERSON MR HLOPE CHAIRPERSON MR DIAZ ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR HLOPE Yes, that is correct. I do not remember saying all those things, I do not know as to when they took place or the taping took place so I cannot explain with regard to the cassettes but I do admit that was my voice there. I could not even hear what I was saying in that cassette when I listened to it thereafter. They played the cassette at the Supreme Court. MR DIAZ Mr Hlope, Mrs Mkhize will testify and say that she was surprised that you had knowledge of the bullet wound to the face of Mr Mkhize and the fact that a tooth of his had flung out and fallen in the car, recorded by your cassettes well before your trial began. If you did not kill Mr Mkhize, how could you possible have known of this to have caused it to have been recorded. MR HLOPE MR DIAZ CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) not a question that is a technical ...(inaudible) MR DIAZ Mr Hlope, I want to take you to paragraph 22 of your affidavit. I see you do not have a copy there before you. In it you say - do you have a copy before you? MR HLOPE Yes, I do. MR DIAZ You would see from paragraph 22 that you say MR HLOPE Yes, I do know that. MR DIAZ Than you follow by saying MR HLOPE Yes, that is true. MR DIAZ MR HLOPE Yes, that is the same person. MR DIAZ MR HLOPE That is correct. MR DIAZ Why would she have done that? MR HLOPE MR DIAZ MR HLOPE MR DIAZ MR HLOPE MR DIAZ MR HLOPE MR DIAZ I have said to you earlier that we are dealing with Kushana Kuzwayo and if you look at paragraph 32 of your affidavit which deals with other incidents, you deal there with Kushana Kuzwayo in particular. MR HLOPE Yes, I do understand that. MR DIAZ Now will you answer that question relating to your involvement? Do you want me to repeat that? MR HLOPE MR DIAZ Will you look at paragraph 32 of your affidavit? MR HLOPE Yes, I do see that. MR DIAZ Do you see there you say the following MR HLOPE That is true. MR DIAZ And thereafter you say" MR HLOPE MR DIAZ Do I understand you to mean that you remained behind and they went by car? MR HLOPE That is correct. MR DIAZ MR HLOPE MR DIAZ MR HLOPE MR DIAZ MR HLOPE I still deny it. CHAIRPERSON You will remember that he was found not guilty on this count. MR DIAZ Yes, Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER What did he in fact do when he participated, did he ...(inaudible) MR DIAZ And of course additionally that the applicant had travelled in the vehicle of the group of persons who arrived there, so that his affidavit, paragraph 32 to the extent that he was not in the vehicle that travelled is untrue, thank you. ADV DE JAGER MR HLOPE MR DIAZ MR HLOPE I think his answer has already been given. MR DIAZ Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, that is all that I have to deal with. I have no further instructions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DIAZ CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink? EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK MR HLOPE Could you please repeat that? MR BRINK Is it correct that you and Mr Djamile were on trial together in the Supreme Court? MR HLOPE Yes, that is true. MR BRINK And you were both convicted and sentenced? MR HLOPE That is correct. MR BRINK Do you remember what sentence Mr Djamile received? What was it? MR HLOPE Yes, I do. Life sentence. MR BRINK Was he subsequently released? MR HLOPE That is correct. He was given indemnity and my application was turned down. MR BRINK He was given indemnity and your application was turned down? MR HLOPE That is correct. MR BRINK Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR SHANGWENI No, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SHANGWENI ADV DE JAGER Could I kindly - could you inform me, you were sentenced to 23 years imprisonment on the murder of Mr Kuzwayo, is that correct? MR HLOPE Yes, that is true. ADV DE JAGER And what sentence what sentence did you received on the murder of Mr Mkhize? INTERPRETER ADV DE JAGER What sentence did you receive on the murder of Mr Mkhize? MR HLOPE 22 years and they were supposed to run concurrently. CHAIRPERSON Did your client appeal against his conviction and sentence? MR SHANGWENI No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Are there any other witnesses you propose calling? MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON Mr Hlope, will you please stand and raise your right hand? JABULANI BOBBY HLOPE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR SHANGWENI Thank you Mr Chairperson. State your full names and surname please. MR HLOPE Jabulani Bobby Hlope. MR SHANGWENI How are you related to the applicant, Msizi Jethro Hlope? MR HLOPE MR SHANGWENI How old are you Mr Hlope? MR HLOPE MR SHANGWENI Where do you live? MR HLOPE I stay in Claremont. MR SHANGWENI How long did you live there? MR HLOPE MR SHANGWENI Do you know someone, Begezizwe Djamile? MR HLOPE MR SHANGWENI How did Msizi come to know MR Djamile? MR HLOPE MR SHANGWENI Do you remember the incident? MR HLOPE Yes, I do. MR SHANGWENI How many times did you call Msizi at the request of Djamile? MR HLOPE MR SHANGWENI At that time, after the first meeting between Msizi and Djamile, did you suspect that Msizi was involved in any unlawful activities? MR HLOPE MR SHANGWENI MR HLOPE I was scared of him. MR SHANGWENI How did you know that he was going to be against you? MR HLOPE I do know because there are some other people that I can cite as examples that he fought with and attacked after he had realised that they were not on his side. MR SHANGWENI Could you explain to the Committee? CHAIRPERSON What was that question? MR HLOPE He killed Tulani Sebisi in my house. MR SHANGWENI Do you know why he killed Tulani Sebisi in your house? MR HLOPE He had killed him because they had an argument and he hit him with a knopkierrie and he fell down. Djamile was later called to shoot him. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGWENI Mr Chairperson, I was asking the witness of incidents he knows of that made Djamile kill his opponents or people he disagreed with. CHAIRPERSON And he says ...(intervention) MR SHANGWENI And he said before the Committee he was fearful of Djamile. CHAIRPERSON I understand but ...(inaudible) he killed Tulani ...(intervention) MR SHANGWENI As a result he did not report him to the police. CHAIRPERSON I understand but he says he killed Tulani Sebisi in my house and then he called Djamile to shoot him, did I hear that correctly? MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON What does that mean - he says he hit him in the house with a knopkierrie ...(intervention) MR SHANGWENI Not a knopkierrie Mr Chairperson, the witness said he hit him with a stick first, someone hit him with a stick first and then Djamile came later and shot Tulani Sebisi at his house. CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon. So it was somebody who hit Tulani Sebisi with a stick and then Djamile shot him. MR SHANGWENI That is correct. At his house. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SHANGWENI Mr Hlope, what do you think of Djamile now, after all that happened? MR HLOPE MR SHANGWENI No further questions Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANGWENI MR BRINK Just wait there, wait there. CHAIRPERSON Just tell him to wait there. Excuse me? Are there any questions you wish to put to this witness? ADV DE JAGER No. MR DIAZ None at all Mr Chairperson. MR BRINK No thank you. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) ADV DE JAGER But what does this have to do with politics, the fact that your son is in jail, is it related to politics of what? MR HLOPE ADV DE JAGER MR HLOPE He was a high profile member, he was holding a very high position although I do not know as to what the position was. DV DE JAGER Was he in Parliament at that stage? MR HLOPE ADV DE JAGER Was he - he was not in the Kwa Zulu Natal Government at that stage? MR HLOPE Yes, he was. ADV DE JAGER What position did he have in the Government. MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON ADV DE JAGER MR SHANGWENI I will withdraw my comment then. MR HLOPE ADV SANDI Besides the fact that you were a tenant at the premises of Mr Djamile, did you have any other relationship with Mr Djamile? MR HLOPE No, we were not related in any other way. ADV SANDI Were you a member of the same political organisation with Mr Djamile? MR HLOPE ADV SANDI Did Mr Djamile mention anything to you about his son being a member of the same political organisation with him? MR HLOPE No, he never mentioned anything to that effect. ADV SANDI Mr Djamile has never said to you your son was a member of the IFP together with him - Mr Djamile? MR HLOPE No, he has never told me that. ADV SANDI Did you know your son to be a member of the IFP? MR HLOPE I knew that they were in the same group as Mr Djamile but I did not know that he was a fully fledged member. ADV SANDI Can you explain what you mean by a fully fledged member of the IFP? MR HLOPE ADV SANDI What would the difference be between what you have called a fully fledged member of the IFP and your son or a person in the position of your son? MR HLOPE I think that the difference is that if you are old, you cannot involve yourself in politics. CHAIRPERSON ADV SANDI You may not have understood the question clearly. What do people ...(intervention) INTERPRETER You may continue. ADV SANDI CHAIRPERSON Alright, thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED MR SHANGWENI With your permission Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee, I will now call Maqnoba Abraham Hlope. CHAIRPERSON Can you spell that name please for the purpose of the record? MR SHANGWENI Maqnoba Abraham Hlope, (spelt) the brother to the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SHANGWENI State your full names and surname please. MR HLOPE Maqnoba Abraham Hlope. CHAIRPERSON Will you please stand Mr Hlope. Are you prepared to take the oath? MAQNOBA ABRAHAM HLOPE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR SHANGWENI Thank you Mr Chairperson. For the purpose of record, please state your full name and surname please. MR HLOPE Maqnoba Abraham Hlope. MR SHANGWENI How are you related to the applicant. MR HLOPE MR SHANGWENI When you grew up, how did you relate to your brother? CHAIRPERSON What does that mean? MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI How did you relate to your brother Msizi Jethro Hlope? MR HLOPE We grew up like any other normal - like normal people. We had our tiffs as brothers and he got involved with Djamile at some stage but at a later stage we got on quite well. MR SHANGWENI During his involvement with Djamile, did you at any stage suspect him in any involvement of unlawful activities? MR HLOPE MR SHANGWENI Are there any incidents that made you think that ...(intervention) MR HLOPE No English translation. MR SHANGWENI What are those incidents? INTERPRETER The speaker did not finish the question. MR SHANGWENI Are there any incidents that made you think Msizi was involved in unlawful activities and what were those incidents? MR HLOPE When I got into that office, I saw some policemen, two White policemen who had some walkie talkies as well as guns and two other males who were unknown to me. Msizi was present during that day and he told me that he had worked with Msizi for a long time and he wanted me to also join so that we could be one thing and be united. MR SHANGWENI Did you report this to the police? MR HLOPE No, I did not because I realised that he was collaborating with the police. He killed a man at my place but he was never arrested. He also shot another one but he was not arrested during all those incidents. The other one who survived was scared to report the matter. And he also gave him R100-00 not to report the matter. MR SHANGWENI No further questions Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGWENI The purpose of this evidence Mr Chairperson, was that I wanted to show that Djamile was a type of a person who could manipulate anyone for the purposes of achieving his political goals. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI Yes, he tried to manipulate him Mr Chairperson and he succeeded in manipulating his brother Msizi Jethro Hlope. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGWENI I was putting it for the purpose of record Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Are there any questions ...(inaudible) NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIAZ None from me Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK No thank you Mr Chairman. WITNESS EXCUSED ADV SANDI What was the purpose of the evidence that was led by the witness before this one? MR SHANGWENI Djamile, taking into consideration his age at that time. ADV DE JAGER MR SHANGWENI That is correct member of the Committee. CHAIRPERSON At an appropriate time you will address us on that aspect of the matter. MR SHANGWENI I will do that Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Anyway we have no question of this witness. NO QUESTIONS BY COMMITTEE MR SHANGWENI Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Are there any other witnesses you are calling? MR SHANGWENI No, Mr Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON MR DIAZ Mr Chairman, yes indeed I was hopeful to start with Mrs Mkhize this afternoon, I see it is now just past 3.30 ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR DIAZ Do I have time, thank you. May I start with Mrs Mkhize. Mrs Mkhize? CHAIRPERSON Mrs Mkhize will you just stand and raise your right hand? Are you prepared to take the oath. ZAMASWAZI TANDI MKHIZE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON May I have your full names please. MR HLOPE Zamaswazi Tandi Mkhize. CHAIRPERSON Yes. EXAMINATION BY MR DIAZ Thank you Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, before I begin perhaps I should say that on the record that has been handed in is contained a statement if not an affidavit by this witness numbered pages 109 to 111, otherwise numbered on the index seven. CHAIRPERSON MR DIAZ That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we have it. MR DIAZ Thank you Mr Chairman. Mrs Mkhize, do you recall that I read out to you the two page document contained in the record dealing with what you regard as your proposed testimony before this Committee today? MRS MKHIZE Yes, I do remember. MR DIAZ And do you confirm the contents thereof as being correct? MRS MKHIZE Yes, I do. MR DIAZ In addition, may I just ask you the following, you recall an incident during the trial of Mr Hlope and Djamile when you and Mrs Kuzwayo were walking towards the toilet during a tea recess when Mr Hlope approached you and talked to you. MRS MKHIZE Yes, I do. MR DIAZ Was there an incident prior to this when you enquired from the said Mr Hlope about who killed your husband? MRS MKHIZE Yes. MR DIAZ Can you tell this Committee firstly about that prior incident? MRS MKHIZE The following day when we were proceeding to the toilet, I heard somebody calling me sister Tandi, sister Tandi. I asked Mrs Kuzwayo as to who was calling me but he was somewhere at the window and Mrs Kuzwayo said I should go to that window and I proceeded towards the window. I stood there, the window was just above me and I heard somebody saying, I heard that yesterday you were asking as to why I had killed your husband, I was sent by Mr Djamile. He even told me that he pointed out Mr Zazi and I screamed later on and called people to come and listen to Msizi. MR DIAZ Mrs Mkhize is it true that after Mr Hlope said, sister Tandi, sister Tandi addressing himself to you, Mrs Kuzwayo in whose company you were tried to stop you from going to this voice but you of course indicated the person was addressing you and you were desirous of listening to him? MRS MKHIZE That is true. MR DIAZ And then when you got to the voice, did you recognise this voice as being that of the applicant, Mr Hlope? MRS MKHIZE Yes, he told me that he was Msizi Hlope because I could not see him as the window as a little bit above me and I just could not see who was behind the window. MR DIAZ Did he then say to you, I heard the words that you uttered towards me yesterday that I shot your husband, I did not do it of my own free will to go and kill brother Mandla, I had been pressurized or forced by Djamile? MRS MKHIZE That is true. MR DIAZ Did he then proceed to say, I am now prepared to confess about everything because I did not do any of these things out of my own volition, I had been pressurized to do it? MRS MKHIZE He did not say that he was prepared to confess or admit, I said to him, you must tell the court whatever you are telling me. MR DIAZ Did Mr Hlope the applicant, admit to you that he had killed your husband or did he not? MRS MKHIZE Yes, he did. MR DIAZ In admitting that he killed your husband, what did he say to you, what were his words? MRS MKHIZE He said, I am the one but I was instructed by Mr Djamile, I did not do it out of my own volition. MR DIAZ According to page 86 of the record, for the purpose of the record, you then became hysterical, you fell to the ground, you were taking away back to the parking area by Mrs Kuzwayo but before this you said to the applicant - it does not help to come and tell me all this since you killed my own husband, correct? MRS MKHIZE That is true. MR DIAZ Thereafter the applicant said to you that he was prepared to go and confess in court and tell the court everything about what happened. MRS MKHIZE That is true. MR DIAZ Is it not correct that you then enquired form the applicant when precisely he was going to make such a confession whereupon he replied that when it came to his turn to talk in court, he would make such a confession? MRS MKHIZE That is true. MR DIAZ Is it not true that you then left with Mrs Kuzwayo, you went to the front of the court and you said to persons that Msizi had made this admission to you whereupon persons including Constable Zuma approached the applicant? MRS MKHIZE ADV DE JAGER Sorry Mrs Mkhize, did you tell him to go to the court and tell the court the truth or did he offer to tell the truth? MRS MKHIZE MR DIAZ And Mrs Mkhize, is it not true that you made a report of this to Constable Zuma and to other persons? MRS MKHIZE MR DIAZ Thereafter you made statements to Advocate Mike Himber about this and so did Mrs Kuzwayo who was then in your company. MRS MKHIZE That is true. MR DIAZ Do you recall the applicant having responded under cross-examination that when he talked to you under those circumstances, his principle objective was to ask you to bring clothing for him from his sister? MRS MKHIZE MR DIAZ During the trial you mentioned that as you were crying and you turned away, it is then that he talked about some clothing but that was not the chief motive, correct? MRS MKHIZE MR DIAZ Mrs Mkhize, at some stage you had the opportunity ...(intervention) MRS MKHIZE No English translation. MR DIAZ ... you had the opportunity of listening to two cassettes, were these cassettes given to you ...(intervention) MRS MKHIZE Yes, that is true. MR DIAZ MRS MKHIZE MR DIAZ To the extent that you were familiar about the manner in which your husband came to be killed, was the description on the cassette in accordance with that, that really took place with the facts. MRS MKHIZE I was not present during the time that he was killed, I was in the upstairs room and he was killed where the cars were. I heard some sound of gunfire, about three shots and I heard my child screaming but when I listened to the cassette I heard because he was shot on the cheek and his tooth fell out onto the car seat and we go the tooth and a later stage. MR DIAZ Was there any admission on the cassette that the person who spoke on it admitted to having killed Mr Mandla Mkhize and Mrs Shabalala? MRS MKHIZE Yes, he did. MR DIAZ And is it not true that the voice on the cassette also identified himself as a person who pointed out Zazi Kuzwayo and Kushana Kuzwayo for the purposes of later killing them too? MRS MKHIZE Yes. MR DIAZ You heard the evidence of the applicant about an old lady who was a tenant of your late husband and who also gave information, apparently to Djamile about certain ANC and UDF meetings that took place at your house, do you wish to say anything about that? MRS MKHIZE MR DIAZ MRS MKHIZE MR DIAZ To recall, the applicant as having spoken of a red Chevrolet that your husband had, did your late husband had at the time he was killed, would you confirm that? MRS MKHIZE Yes, he did own a Chevrolet but at the time of his death, the Chevrolet had long been sold. MR DIAZ Was the Chevrolet sold in February 1988? MRS MKHIZE The last time I got into it was when I had gone to hospital to undergo an operation and the car was sold whilst I was in hospital because I remained at the hospital for quite some time. By the time I came back from hospital the Chevrolet was sold already. He fetched me in a tax or in a E20 and he told me that he had sold the red Chevrolet and he had bought a Ford Cortina with a sun roof. MR DIAZ Your husband died on the 15th of July 1988, is that correct? MRS MKHIZE That is true. MR DIAZ And at the time of his death he had a blue Ford Cortina and a maroon Peugeot? MRS MKHIZE That is true. MR DIAZ But he used the blue Ford Cortina more often, did he not? MRS MKHIZE That is true. MR DIAZ MRS MKHIZE MRS MKHIZE MRS MKHIZE MR DIAZ NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DIAZ CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) questions? MR SHANGWENI No questions Mr Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK Very briefly, Mr Chairman. MRS MKHIZE He used to say that he like the UDF. MR BRINK But was he active in the UDF? MRS MKHIZE As a business man he did not have time to go to meetings but whenever the children came looking for cars, he used to give them cars especially after Mrs Mkleni had been killed. They came and asked for the car keys so that they could go to the memorial service as well as the funeral and they would bring the keys back. I think what I would say is, he was a sympathizer. MR BRINK Do you think his activities and his sympathies were well known in the community? MRS MKHIZE It is possible. MR BRINK Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK ADV DE JAGER As far as you know, was there only one person involved in the shooting or were there more than one when your husband was shot? Could perhaps your - I see your child begged to save hi life, did he tell you whether he saw more than person or only one person? MRS MKHIZE I do not know because when I got to the scene, I saw no-one and by the time I got there people were now milling around and I came across my brother Bheki, coming towards my direction and he told me that they had already shot my husband and Phiso was screaming asking as to why his father was being killed. And when I asked as to who had killed his father, he said he did not see but he was begging for his own life. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much, you are excused. Do you have what we normally call in legal parlance, a short witness we might sandwich in? MR DIAZ Indeed, I was just about to concede to that Mr Chairperson. Mrs Pilesile Kuzwayo. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Kuzwayo, will you please just stand and raise your right hand. PILESILE KUZWAYO (sworn states) MR DIAZ Thank you Mr Chairman. Mrs Kuzwayo, you are the surviving spouse of the late Zazi Kuzwayo, is it not? MRS KUZWAYO MR DIAZ Your testimony however is relative to Mrs Tandi Mkhize, the surviving spouse of Mandla Mkhize, the late Mandla Mkhize? MRS KUZWAYO MR DIAZ You were in the company of Mrs Tandi Mkhize, the last witness during the trial relative to the applicant and one Djamile, when you heard the applicant make certain admissions, correct? MRS KUZWAYO MR DIAZ Will you please tell this Committee about that incident, starting from how it came about that the applicant spoke to you sorry, to Mrs Mkhize? INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Can she hear if you speak, nobody has talked to her yet? ADV DE JAGER Can you hear me? INTERPRETER MR DIAZ Can you hear us now? Can you hear us? INTERPRETER MR DIAZ INTERPRETER ADV DE JAGER We have an English on three. INTERPRETER Yes, she can hear. MR DIAZ Thank you Mr Chairman. Mrs Kuzwayo, perhaps I should just take you briefly through it. During the course of the trial relative to the applicant and Djamile, you and Mrs Tandi Mkhize were on your way to the toilets when you heard a voice calling sister Tandi, sister Tandi, do you remember that? MRS KUZWAYO Yes, I do remember that. MR DIAZ You continued to the toilet and you beckoned to Mrs Mkhize, calling her away from the voice but she insisted on listening to the person who called her, correct? MRS KUZWAYO MR DIAZ You do not know what the person who called her said to her until much later when you returned from the toilet and you saw Mrs Mkhize on her back, distressed, distraught, hysterical, correct? MRS KUZWAYO MR DIAZ At that stage Mrs Mkhize made a report to you about the person that spoke to her and what he had said? MRS KUZWAYO Yes. MR DIAZ What did Mrs Mkhize tell you? MRS KUZWAYO The next day we were asked to put statements as to what happened outside the Supreme Court. We gave our statements and another day during the same week, I was a witness in court. MR DIAZ And of course following upon this discussion, you and Mrs Mkhize made statements to Advocate Mike Himber about this incident, correct? MRS KUZWAYO MR DIAZ And you testified at that trial in this regard? MRS KUZWAYO MR DIAZ MRS KUZWAYO MR DIAZ Thank you Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, that is the testimony of this witness, thank you. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI No questions your Lordship. CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink? MR BRINK No thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Kuzwayo, thank you very much. MRS KUZWAYO Thanks. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR DIAZ CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR DIAZ Certainly, thank you. MR DIAZ The person being called is Mr Sebusiso Kuzwayo, the son of the late Mr Kushana Kuzwayo. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kuzwayo, will you please stand. SEBUSISO KUZWAYO (sworn states) MR DIAZ Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Kuzwayo, you are the son of the late Mr Kushana Kuzwayo, is that true? MR KUZWAYO MR DIAZ MR KUZWAYO Yes, I heard of him. MR DIAZ Are you aware that the applicant has been acquitted on the charge of the death of your late father? MR KUZWAYO Yes, I heard. MR DIAZ MR KUZWAYO CHAIRPERSON Was he at the trial, was your client at the trial? MR DIAZ CHAIRPERSON You may proceed. MR DIAZ Thank you Mr Chairman MR KUZWAYO My brother who was there when this thing happened and he was also present in court. MR DIAZ And you intend to have your brother testify here as well, do you not? MR KUZWAYO MR DIAZ He is the brother who has made these statements which is contained in the record which we earlier dealt with, correct? MR KUZWAYO MR DIAZ Mr Kuzwayo, you do recall that the applicant mentioned in this application that he did have some role to play as regards the death of your late father? MR KUZWAYO Yes, I read about that on his affidavit. MR DIAZ MR KUZWAYO You referring here or in court? MR DIAZ MR KUZWAYO Yes, in court he denied having participated but in his affidavit he does agree that he was there. MR DIAZ MR KUZWAYO MR DIAZ According to your knowledge, more particularly from what your brother has told you, the applicant was present at the house when your father was actually gunned to death? CHAIRPERSON MR KUZWAYO Yes, he was there, he pointed out and he was also present. CHAIRPERSON MR DIAZ CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR DIAZ CHAIRPERSON Lets be absolutely clear. You were not there when these people came to your house on the occasion when your father was killed? MR KUZWAYO CHAIRPERSON MR KUZWAYO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any questions to put to this one? MR SHANGWENI No questions Mr Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR SHANGWENI MR BRINK No, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK MR DIAZ Mr Chairman, as mentioned earlier, unfortunately I have no further witnesses for today except for his brother who unfortunately is not available today. I do not know when he would be made available. Perhaps if this Committee can tell me when next we are sitting I could then ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON We are sitting tomorrow morning at half past nine. MR DIAZ Could I then take instructions, Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DIAZ Thank you. Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, my client indicates that his brother would be able to make himself available first thing tomorrow morning and would be able to testify but I understand from my learned colleague now who tells me aside that he has problems about tomorrow. Perhaps he can address the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Why is that so? MR SHANGWENI Thank you Mr Chairperson. I was informed that the matter will disposed of today. CHAIRPERSON Informed by whom? MR SHANGWENI By my learned colleague, Mr Robin Brink. And I made arrangements to the effect that ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON So when did you ...(intervention) MR SHANGWENI ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink? MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV DE JAGER Mr Diaz, your witness would be testifying in connection with an incident or a murder as a matter of fact which is not on our role for amnesty, is that correct? MR DIAZ Indeed that is so. ADV DE JAGER MR DIAZ Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, I had considered that and as has been heard from the testimony of the last witness, the applicant has not been convicted in regard to Kushana Kuzwayo but my instructions were to lead that evidence for the purpose of credibility to show that in fact the applicant has not been absolutely truthful, honest and open with his application. And purely from the point of credibility the next witness who is intended to be called tomorrow morning, will show that this applicant falls short at that level. ADV DE JAGER MR DIAZ Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, I agree with that reasoning totally, I cannot disagree with that but only to the extent that the applicant has chosen of his own free voluntary decision and perhaps on the advice of his counsel to lead that evidence relative to the death of Kushana Kuzwayo, did my client come to instruct me to counter that on that level. Had the applicant not dealt with the death of Kushana Kuzwayo, then obviously we would not have dealt with that either. It would seem to me that the applicant has an objective in dealing with that and as has been submitted by my learned colleague his counsel, it was purely to give a fuller honest, truthful impression. It is at that level that my client seeks to counteract it. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) now does that make things, does it simplify matters as far as calling further evidence is concerned? MR DIAZ CHAIRPERSON Are you ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI That is correct Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI ADDRESSES The applicant in his application, has shown the following: ADV DE JAGER MR SHANGWENI Page 191 member of the Committee, of the bundle, paragraph 56 thereof. ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGWENI That is correct Mr Chairperson but what is important is that, where did that money come from, it came from the tax payers money, that is from the State. CHAIRPERSON How do we know? How do we know that? ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI I will withdraw that ...(inaudible) Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGWENI At that time Mr Chairperson, the applicant believed that UDF or ANC supporters were terrorists who were just murderers who had no respect for the law. His acts were associated with a political objective because he was instructed by Mr Djamile who was a member of Inkatha then and he was also a member of Kwa Zulu Government. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGWENI INTERPRETER MR SHANGWENI Thank you. Sorry for that Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, it was well known at that time in Claremont that a political conflict existed between UDF and Inkatha supporters. This was as a result of an attempt to incorporate the Claremont township to the then Kwa Zulu self-governing State. There was resistance to that effect and a committee was formed to oversee that process whereby Claremont residence were against the incorporation of Claremont township to the Kwa Zulu self-governing State. Therefore Mr Chairperson, in light of that conflict, the applicant found himself on the other side of the conflict, that is on the side of Inkatha. His acts were committed in an execution of an order by Djamile who was also part of that conflict and he was made to believe and he believed ultimately that UDF supporters are his enemies. In respect of the killing of Zazi Kuzwayo, the statement of Begezizwe Alex Kumalo, at page 187 of the bundle, paragraphs 43 and 46 thereof, if I may read - paragraph 43 reads: "During the planning, Maslanduna meaning Dalikolo Woodsworth Letule said there was a boy, meaning Msizi Jethro Hlope who was going to accompany us and he was to go to see if Zazi Kuzwayo was present and if so, he was to come back and tell us the position as to where Zazi was. It was agreed that if Zazi was there and the circumstances allowed us, we were to carry out the operation but if he was there and the situation was not right, we were not going to act but instead we had to check how the place looked like." If I may further take you to paragraph 46 Mr Chairperson, which reads: Thereafter Msizi Hlope left us and walked away". MR SHANGWENI Mr Chairperson ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER MR SHANGWENI INTERPRETER MR SHANGWENI ADV DE JAGER MR SHANGWENI ADV DE JAGER MR SHANGWENI ADV SANDI MR SHANGWENI Thank you Mr Commissioner. The appropriate words I think which I could use is, he was a political tool in a sense that he was made to believe that whatever he was doing was correct. If ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) ADV SANDI ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGWENI That is correct Mr Chairperson, the applicant was willing in a sense that he had differences with his brother. He would have foreseen that as a result of those differences whatever he was doing was wrong but he believed in what he was doing and he continued. He defied his brother and he even stopped consulting his father concerning clothing, food and so forth. CHAIRPERSON Was that not because he was being paid for what he was doing? MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGWENI I am saying that statement in that context Mr Chairperson. In his case he was influenced and he believed that whatever he did for Mr Djamile was correct because he was a figure, high political profile and someone respected in the community. CHAIRPERSON He would do whatever Djamile would ask him to do? MR SHANGWENI ADV SANDI Had Djamile not come to the applicant and ask him to do all these things he was asking him to do, would he have been in jail today for example, would he have landed where he is today? MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGWENI In fact Claremont was a stronghold of UDF. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) either UDF or Inkatha ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI ADV DE JAGER Could you kindly assist me, section 20 sub-section 3 quote "If we wanted to decide whether it was an act associated with a political motive, we should do so at the following ...(inaudible) criteria Is there any evidence before us what his motive was and what he wanted to achieve? MR SHANGWENI Thank you Mr Commissioner. His motive was that he wanted to see to it that those who opposed Mr Djamile must be dealt with because he believed that UDF supporters did not abide to the ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER MR SHANGWENI ADV DE JAGER MR SHANGWENI ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON His motive was to satisfy Mr Djamile with whom he got on reasonably well and who paid him from time to time. MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI ADV SANDI Can I ask Mr Shangweni, just on the question of full disclosure, is it a coincidence that your client in all the incidents referred to, he seems to have been consistent in playing a very sort of minimum role, is that a mere coincidence? MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Your client was a young man from what you tell us, he was unsophisticated, is that correct? MR SHANGWENI That is correct Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON He merely carried out instructions from time to time and at some stage, according to what you say, he began to appreciate the importance of what Djamile was doing. In other words, Djamile was carrying out certain political objectives in going around doing what he was doing - killing people. MR SHANGWENI That is correct Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Brink ...(inaudible) ADV DE JAGER Could I just ask you please, you should help me here. The Act says ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER ADV DE JAGER Section 23(e) says "Whether the act, omission or offence was committed in the execution of an order of the organisation" Would you say there was an order from the organisation that he should point out or kill somebody? MR SHANGWENI If we take an approach that there should be an order from an organisation writing a letter that these things must be done, any organisation would end up not giving people amnesty if we are approaching it in that strict sense of the way. ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON All we know he was a prominent political figure. ADV DE JAGER Was he authorised ...(no sound) MR SHANGWENI Thank you Mr Chairperson. I think that question whether the acts of Msizi were authorised by Inkatha, is for Mr Djamile to answer for the following reason It was ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER MR SHANGWENI ADV DE JAGER MR SHANGWENI Thank you Mr Commissioner, I will withdraw that question but I will answer it in this way. Djamile was a member of Inkatha. Djamile was opposed to people who were supporting UDF. Djamile asked Msizi Jethro Hlope to point out his opponents to the would-be assassins. Djamile told Msizi Jethro Hlope that UDF supporters are acting unlawfully, they were terrorists and they were murderers. Msizi believed that because he respected Mr Djamile. Msizi believed that because he thought Inkatha was a correct organisation. That is the nexus between the orders that were given to him, irrespective of whether he understood them or not, orders given to Msizi Jethro Hlope by Djamile. CHAIRPERSON ADV DE JAGER Mkhize? CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGWENI Thank you Mr Chairperson. From the affidavit of the applicant, he states that he was told by Mr Djamile that UDF supporters are terrorists and murderers. In his evidence he said he believed that to be true. ADV SANDI Mr Shangweni, I thought you said Claremont was a stronghold of the UDF and I understand from the affidavit of the applicant, that he was also resident in that area, is that correct? MR SHANGWENI That is correct. ADV SANDI In his evidence he does not say anything about having experienced or witnessed anything that shows that these UDF people were what Mr Djamile was saying they are, did he have any basis for believing what Mr Djamile was saying to him about these UDF people? MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SHANGWENI I will end my address, thanks Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink? MR BRINK Save ...(inaudible) the difficulties which you have a share ...(inaudible) to some extent, it does appear that Mr Mkhize anyway was a well known UDF supporter. That appears in the evidence of Mrs Mkhize and also at page 109 of the papers, paragraph 3, she in her statement says he was a well known - well he was an activist, he was a UDF activist. CHAIRPERSON MR DIAZ ADDRESSES That becomes increasingly apparent if one has regard to - if I may on this occasion as well refer to the Judgement, of copy of which is in the bundle particularly at paragraph 90 thereof in which the Honourable Judge had ...(inaudible) recorded his findings on credibility and fact insofar as these two witnesses are concerned. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR DIAZ Page 90 Mr Chairperson. The Chairman and Honourable Committee members will note that immediately preceding page 90 of the Judgement, the learned Judge had dealt at some length with the testimony that I caused to be adduced through these two witnesses namely, Mrs Mkhize and Mrs Kuzwayo and having dealt with that, arrives at the conclusion that their testimony must be accepted and says the following on page 90 from line three onwards "Accused number one gave evidence, he was a thoroughly mendacious witness, his demeanour was shocking. He contradicted himself, he changed his instructions to his counsel with no satisfactory reason given and it is patently clear from the record and patently clear to us that the conspiracy that he spoke of was a fabrication. From his counsel one would expect the best testimonial of his evidence before us that he could get and this is what Mr Steyn on his behalf said rightly, in our view ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON That is why he was found guilty ...(inaudible) ADV DE JAGER MR DIAZ CHAIRPERSON MR DIAZ Under those circumstances, what I was endeavouring to achieve was to endorse the sentiments expressed by the learned Judge, included in the Judgement, not failing to understand that he has been convicted but simply saying that, having regard to his application today, I would endorse those sentiments as being applicable even today. And the learned Judge as mentioned on 92 says: "We reject his evidence as being false" I submit that, that finding can well be made, even today, thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON If the applicant wishes to speak to your clients and show his contrition to them, are they willing to do so, are they willing to meet and talk to him because if they are, then I will adjourn here, the Committee will adjourn to enable the applicant and whoever wishes to be with him, to meet and speak to the victims and the dependants of the victims, rather to the relatives of the victims. MR DIAZ Mr Chairperson, unfortunately I have no instructions thereon, I personally have no difficulty with that. Could I perhaps take instructions? Thank you. Mr Chairperson thank you for the indulgence, my instructions are that Mrs Mkhize and Mrs Kuzwayo are not agreeable to talk to the applicant. Mrs Mkhize is still crying, has not answered me except for a nod of the head indicating her disagreement with the idea. CHAIRPERSON I would like to address a few words to the applicant. The fact that in this gathering which is electrically charged at present, where strong views have been expressed by both sides, there seems to be some reluctance on the part of people who have been affected by the offences with which you are associated but I think that the initiative to attempt a reconciliation, that initiative will have to come from you. The fact that at present it is not possible to do so does not mean that you cannot, through your attorneys and legal representatives, attempt to arrange a meeting, a personal meeting in the absence of members of the public, to arrange a meeting with the people with whom you would like to talk and from whom you would like to ask forgiveness, do you understand? MR HLOPE Yes, I do understand. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGWENI CHAIRPERSON All right, that brings us to the end of this application and the Commission will now stand adjourned until the next hearing. When will that be Mr Brink? MR BRINK That will be on Thursday. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) efforts to see whether it is impossible to arrange for it to be heard earlier. MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON MR DIAZ Mr Chairman sorry, am I to be regarded as being excused? CHAIRPERSON You are excused, the hearing is now adjourned. MR DIAZ COMMITTEE ADJOURNS