amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS DURBAN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54700&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/durban/marais.htm TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION DAY 1 - 12 AUGUST 1996 AMNESTY APPLICATION EUGENE MARAIS MR WILKINSON The third applicant, Mr Eugene Marais. EUGENE MARAIS (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR WILKINSON Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Marais on the 9th of October 1990 you committed an offence which led to a violation of human rights. A few days later you were arrested. Who arrested you? MR MARAIS By the security police. MR WILKINSON Was there a specific branch involved? MR MARAIS The people who arrested us are known as the special rights investigation unit as we understood it. That was a branch of the murder and robbery unit which investigated political matters. MR WILKINSON Now in terms of what legislation were you arrested? MR MARAIS The day after we were arrested we were informed by the security police that we were being held under Section 29 and also Section 29 of the Internal Security Act for a period of about 96 days. MR WILKINSON Did you - you immediately pleaded guilty? MR MARAIS That is correct. MR WILKINSON On what charges did you plead guilty? MR MARAIS There were seven charges of murder, 27 attempted murder and the illegal possession of a firearm and ammunition. MR WILKINSON You received clemency from the State President? MR MARAIS That is correct. MR WILKINSON MR MARAIS That is correct. MR WILKINSON Why were these not successful? MR MARAIS The crimes which we were charged with took place on the 9th of October 1990. During November of 1990, during negotiations between the ANC and the then National Party Government, The Pretoria and Groote Schuur Minutes were issued and it was decided that amnesty would be granted for crimes which had taken place before the 8th of October 1990. MR WILKINSON So today you are before this Committee to apply for amnesty, not only for the murder charges but for the other charges? MR MARAIS That is correct. MR WILKINSON Thank you. Your history, your links with right-wing politics? MR MARAIS These are part of the application. MR WILKINSON In your own words, step by step, please tell us step by step what happened on the 9th of October which led to this incident. MR MARAIS Mr Chairman, I really only began to become interested in politics in 1980 while I was at university in Bloemfontein. That year there was a general election, and we as students were recruited to help with this election. Former Minister Kobie Coetzee stood there for the National Party and I served in his team to work on voting day. In fact he won that election and that was a great pleasure for all of us. I joined them, and in the next election I worked for them. I canvassed for them and went from house to house and I also acted as an electoral agent on various occasions. In about 1987 I was approached by a friend who invited me to an AWB meeting. I attended it and I found it most interesting. What was said there was very interesting, and it was precisely reflected my feelings and I became convinced that I should join the AWB and I did so. I also progressed in the AWB. At Kempton Park I even became the leader of the so-called Burgerraad. In 1990 I moved from Witwatersrand to Richards Bay where I began my own business. I became acquainted with a person, and from our conversation it became clear that he was a member of the AWB and that is how he introduced himself to me. A little while later he introduced me to Mr Botha as the local leader/Kommandant of the AWB. MR WILKINSON Who was this person who introduced him? MR MARAIS We thought this was a good idea, because at that stage the AWB had been so infiltrated by the security police that I thought there were more security police than others in the AWB. I attended an AWB meeting in Richards Bay, incognito because I was a photographer and I went there without a uniform and I took photos and I looked like any other person attending. It gave me the opportunity to be there. During September 1990, Mr Botha approached me - excuse me? MR WILKINSON MR MARAIS He was a Kommandant, also the local leader of the AWB in Richards Bay. MR WILKINSON Did he regularly visit your business? MR MARAIS He visited me very regularly. We discussed politics frequently when we had the opportunity. Obviously I was running a business and sometimes clients were present and we either moved to the back of the shop or waited till the people had left, but politics was definitely on the agenda. MR WILKINSON When Mr Botha visited the shop, how did he greet you? MR MARAIS MR WILKINSON So did you have any doubt about his leadership position in the AWB? MR MARAIS MR WILKINSON MR MARAIS MR WILKINSON What did you take with you? MR MARAIS I brought my rifle. MR WILKINSON What kind of rifle was it? MR MARAIS An AK47. MR WILKINSON: Where did you get the AK47? MR MARAIS The local residents saw us approaching because we were in uniform and in military vehicles and so they fled. We did a sweeping operation in the squatter camp and we found a number of items, things such as typewriters and various equipment - a tremendous amount of equipment. At a particular stage I entered a shack. I was alone. There was a plastic sheet under the bed on the ground. I picked it up and under that there was a bag - a plastic bag, and I found inside it an AK47 with magazines and ammunition. MR WILKINSON MR MARAIS MR WILKINSON What was the oath of allegiance? MR MARAIS MR WILKINSON What can you say off the cuff? MR MARAIS MR WILKINSON So the purpose of the meeting was to make the existing relationship more formalised? MR MARAIS MR WILKINSON May I interrupt? Mr Botha was a Kommandant in the AWB? MR MARAIS That is correct. MR WILKINSON: Did you ever dispute his role as a leader in the Orde Boerevolk? MR MARAIS We believed that this would not only lead to the destruction of the Afrikaners, but that it would also cause violence and we would be literally obliterated. At that stage we thought that what had happened after colonialisation, or after decolonisation in other African countries, Uhuru - that would happen here. We got into the car and left for Durban. On the way we decided amongst ourselves that we would have to identify a suitable target. That sounded like a good plan, that we should attack a minibus taxi. We arrived in Durban and we saw a taxi and followed it. We followed it into a residential area, but the circumstances were not conducive to a successful attack, so we abandoned the plan. We stopped at a petrol station to buy cooldrink, at that point a bus drove past and it seemed to us to be a suitable target. We followed the bus, and on a quiet road where there were no other cars, we overtook the bus. Mr Botha gave the command "Fire" and we shot at the bus. ... [intervention] MR MARAIS MR WILKINSON Why did you launch such an attack on the same day and in Durban? MR MARAIS MR WILKINSON So the offense was for no other reason than as a reaction? MR MARAIS That is correct. MR WILKINSON MR MARAIS At that stage I believed, I truly believed that a peaceful solution was not possible in this country. And co-operation among the people in this country was not possible and that the Whites - the Afrikaners, the Boer - that they were all confronted with - with obliteration. MR WILKINSON The time of the attack, that was the PAC liberation organisation - were you aware that they had registered as a political party? MR MARAIS Yes, I am aware of it. MR WILKINSON Can you say about when it happened? MR MARAIS MR WILKINSON But in 1990, that obviously was very revolutionary? MR MARAIS MR WILKINSON And the Afrikaner community then felt very threatened? MR MARAIS That is correct. MR WILKINSON Now linking up with my previous question - why these innocent victims? MR MARAIS MR WILKINSON Thinking back now - with a an armchair view - do you think you would have succeeded? MR MARAIS MR WILKINSON If I recall correctly, the press at that stage reported that one White would die as a result of that attack. You took seven lives. How can you justify that? MR MARAIS MR WILKINSON Why do you say that? MR MARAIS Although we shot with automatic assault rifles and because of the conflict of the past we were fully aware of the destructive abilities of such weapons. You must understand that when we attacked, it was at night. The stretch of road was pitch dark, there were no street lights. We were shooting at a moving target from a moving vehicle. We were shooting blindly into the night. MR WILKINSON MR MARAIS MR WILKINSON Did you have any bullets left in your magazine that evening? MR MARAIS Yes, I did. MR WILKINSON I know this is a difficult question - how many bullets did you have? Can you remember? MR MARAIS We had approximately eighty rounds between us in magazines, and as far as I know, in total, I think 32 two rounds were fired. MR WILKINSON MR MARAIS MR WILKINSON Is there anything you want to say in addition? MR MARAIS What is your political view? MR WILKINSON I can put it to the Committee like this. My arrest was a shock, it was the first time in my life that I had a clash with the law. I literally, before that I had never even got a traffic ticket. The Section 29 detention period - during that time I was in tremendous conflict - I was wrestling with myself and I came to the view that we had done something terribly wrong, and I also realised after conversations with a number of people that violence was not the solution to this country. And that truly it could lead to the obliteration of all the people in this country, and not only the White Afrikaners. After our detention under Section 29 I was granted bail. On the first opportunity after that I broke off my membership of all right-wing political parties, and since then I have had no political alignment. MR WILKINSON Why was it necessary to do that? MR MARAIS MR MARAIS Do you think the retribution and revenge and victimization are the key to prosperity in this country. MR WILKINSON MR MARAIS Good, and what else do you have to tell the Committee? MR WILKINSON I would like to refer you today to the words of our present State President when he said at his inauguration this year, that we should forget the past, what is past is past. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON No questions? WILKINSON No further questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WLKINSON MR BRINK Will you answer in Afrikaans? MR MARAIS I will be replying in Afrikaans, Sir. CROSS -EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK MR BRINK You, speaking for myself, strike me as a very intelligent man. You went to university? MR MARAIS Yes Sir,. MR BRINK You got your degree? MR MARAIS No, Sir. MR BRINK And just clear one thing for the record. In answer to my colleague you said that you pleaded guilty at your trial? MR MARAIS MR BRINK Is it not true that at the first trial you pleaded "not guilty" and the trials were separated? MR MARAIS So that was under the advice of my legal ... [intervention] MR BRINK No, no, ... [intervention] MR MARAIS MR BRINK I just want the facts. I just want to clear things up. You pleaded "not guilty" ... [intervention] MR MARAIS At my very first appearance ... [intervention] MR BRINK At the first appearance ...[intervention] MR MARAIS MR BRINK Then the trials were separated. It was thereafter you pleaded "not guilty"? MR MARAIS MR BRINK Now what I want to know is this, that having regard to the fact that during your incarceration and detention before your trial, you realised you had done a great deal wrong and you were full of remorse. MR MARAIS MR BRINK And you wanted to come clean. MR MARAIS MR BRINK Why did you plead "not guilty" initially? MR MARAIS Sir, that was on advice of my legal team at that stage to get the separation of trials on which they insisted. MR BRINK MR MARAIS That is correct. MR BRINK How did you know that was the policy? MR MARAIS That was told to me by Mr Botha, Sir. MR BRINK When you left Richards Bay that evening to travel to Durban. MR MARAIS MR BRINK What was in your mind, what did you think was going to happen? MR MARAIS MR BRINK MR MARAIS I can give you a bit of history which might substantiate my answer. During my stay in Kempton Park where I was an active member of the AWB, at that stage the members of the AWB were very much against Black people moving into the White townships - White suburbs, and especially going into White hotels and visiting White entertainment areas, and we would have gone some nights on trips looking for these people and chasing them around and chased them out of the suburbs. MR BRINK Yes. MR MARAIS And I must honestly tell you, Sir, when we got into the car that night leaving for Durban I thought it would be a similar exercise. MR BRINK Well, I - can that be right, Mr Marais? You see, you say the fact that these Whites had been attacked that day was the talk of the town. Botha had called you to his house and told you to bring your rifle, correct? MR MARAIS That is correct. MR BRINK MR MARAIS MR BRINK MR MARAIS No, Sir. MR BRINK MR MARAIS That is correct. MR BRINK What sort of political statement? Chasing people out of hotels and pubs? MR MARAIS Sir, at that stage I was under the command of Mr Botha, and I knew that the decision on our actions was going to be taken, and that he was going to give us orders, and I knew I was going to do it. MR BRINK Are you saying when, when you came to shoot at the Putco bus, was that the statement you were making shooting - the political statement you were making by shooting at the Putco bus without the intention of injuring or killing anyone. MR MARAIS MR BRINK MR MARAIS Our main intention was to make a political statement. MR BRINK By damaging the bus? MR MARAIS MR BRINK MR MARAIS MR BRINK MR MARAIS The argument about terminology ... [intervention] MR BRINK MR MARAIS No, Sir, you must see it as a whole. It was shooting at a bus with people inside to make the statement. MR BRINK You knew that they would be killed? MR MARAIS MR BRINK MR MARAIS MR BRINK And the reaction was to go to Durban and kill people. MR MARAIS That was the result in the end, yes, Sir. MR BRINK MR MARAIS I did not Sir, and you must take into consideration that we had to make use of whatever we had at our disposal at that specific time. As it was heard in evidence earlier, it was decided that we had to do something immediately. MR BRINK MR MARAIS MR BRINK MR MARAIS MR BRINK Yes. Now, did you not think perhaps that if you wanted to make a statement there were other ways of doing it - a political statement - other ways of doing it? MR MARAIS MR BRINK Did you ever consider the repercussions which, thank heaven, never took place? The possible repercussions of your having wantonly murdered innocent people, Black people. Did you think of any possible reaction - enormous reaction that that might have led to. MR MARAIS Yes Sir, and I can tell you what we thought the reaction would be. We thought the PAC would stop attacking innocent people. MR BRINK MR MARAIS No because ... [intervention] MR BRINK And you would go back and kill and it would be a never ending spiral of violence. MR MARAIS In retrospect, Sir, I can see that it would have led to a vicious circle but what I am trying to tell you our state of mind that night, and that is what we truly believed. MR BRINK And are you sincere in your repentance? MR MARAIS I beg yours? Pardon? MR BRINK Are you sincere in your repentance? MR MARAIS Yes Sir, I am. MR BRINK Thank you. JUDGE WILSON INTERPRETER JUDGE WILSON On whose behalf was Botha acting did you think? MR MARAIS Sir, at that night I did not question Mr Botha whether this was under the authority of the AWB, the Orde Boerevolk, the CP or whatever. I took it on authority from him as a person being the Kommandant of the AWB and also the cell leader of the OB at that specific stage. JUDGE WILSON Well what did you think it was? MR MARAIS Sir, at one stage I considered that I actually thought that it was under the auspices or the clearance of the AWB. After the attack, during the days before we were arrested, it was made clear to me then by Mr Botha, that this was actually - was - and that was after he told me that he phoned the media to inform them that this actually was an OB operation. JUDGE WILSON So you knew that? MR MARAIS I beg your pardon? JUDGE WILSON You knew it was ... [intervention] MR MARAIS Yes Sir. JUDGE WILSON Because it appears that you gave evidence saying that it was an AWB aksie. MR MARAIS JUDGE WILSON MR MARAIS Sir, I knew it was not true, and if you would permit I can give you the reason why I did that. JUDGE WILSON Carry on. MR MARAIS JUDGE WILSON With pleasure. MR MARAIS JUDGE WILSON In your evidence you said "I asked him why?" and he said to me that it was a revenge. That we as the AWB should stop this uprising. Did you say that? MR MARAIS JUDGE WILSON MR MARAIS JUDGE WILSON MR MARAIS That is correct. JUDGE NGOEPE In, - it is reported on the, on the record that you said that you took the AK47 upon the insistence of the, of Mr Botha? MR MARAIS That is correct. JUDGE NGOEPE Was it in fact upon his insistence. Does that mean that you were not keen to take it along? MR MARAIS It was more than six years ago. He told me bring the rifle and I brought the rifle. It was standard practice. Wherever we went we took our firearms with us. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MARAIS You asked me whether he told me to bring the rifle, and I maybe objected or insisted or whatever. He told me to bring the rifle and I did not even answer him, I brought the rifle. JUDGE NGOEPE Were you reluctant to take it along? MR MARAIS No, Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE Why did he have to insist that you bring it along if you were not reluctant to do so? MR MARAIS JUDGE NGOEPE Well I thought earlier on when you were asked about the carrying of firearms you said it was standard practice to go around with firearms as a show of force. MR MARAIS JUDGE NGOEPE Did you say that you did not know at all as to why you had to take your AK47 along? MR MARAIS It was not specified, no Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Botha did not tell you. MR MARAIS No, Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you ask him? MR MARAIS No, Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE Why not? MR MARAIS JUDGE NGOEPE MR MARAIS JUDGE NGOEPE MR MARAIS No, Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairperson, just two aspects. Did you again personally from this incident? MR MARAIS No, Sir. MR PRINSLOO Was it out of malevolence? MR MARAIS No, there was no malice. MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Mr Chairman. No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Botha, sorry, can I just ask you this which is troubling me? Is it correct that you told the trial court that Mr Botha said to you "Take the firearm along, we are just going out for a drive"? MR MARAIS JUDGE NGOEPE Did he tell you where you were going for a drive? MR MARAIS No, Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MARAIS No, Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE When did you realise that you were going to Durban? MR MARAIS When we got into the motor car, Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE Did he tell you then? MR MARAIS Yes Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE Well then he told you. MR MARAIS I beg your pardon? JUDGE NGOEPE Then he did tell you that you were going to Durban. MR MARAIS JUDGE NGOEPE Well you have just said to me earlier on that he did not tell you that you were going to Durban. You were going for a drive. MR MARAIS Well that is what he told me earlier in the day. Earlier in the day he told me to come to his house, bring the rifle and that we are going for a drive. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MARAIS Now we are going to Durban, yes Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE He told you the purpose of going to Durban? MR MARAIS Yes, Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE What did he say? MR MARAIS JUDGE NGOEPE Some form of attack? MR MARAIS JUDGE NGOEPE MR MARAIS JUDGE NGOEPE And then that is when he also explained this, what the nature of this "some" of attack was? MR MARAIS JUDGE NGOEPE And so when you left with him at Richards Bay, when the car drove off ... [intervention] MR MARAIS Yes? JUDGE NGOEPE You, you knew that you were going to Durban? You knew what exactly was going be done in Durban? MR MARAIS MS KHAMPEPE Can I ask something, Sir. When were you told by Mr Botha that for one loss of life there should be seven Black lives lost? MR MARAIS Mr Chairman that would have been around, if I look at my application form or the oath that I signed, it must have been more or less the 24th of September when he handed me the form and explained to me what it was about. And he also then explained to me the policies of the Orde Boerevolk. MS KHAMPEPE So you knew during that day of the 9th of October that was the policy of the OB ... [intervention] MR MARAIS MS KHAMPEPE To give such a reaction. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes, thank you. MR MARAIS Thank you, Sir. MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Yes. CHAIRPERSON Are there any other witness you propose calling on behalf of the applicants? MS VAN DER WALT No further witnesses. MR WILKINSON No further witnesses. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR PRINSLOO No further witnesses. CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink do you propose calling witnesses? MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Mr Purshotam, do you propose calling any witnesses? MR PURSHOTAM Yes, Mr Chairman, I propose calling the victims of this attack. CHAIRPERSON How many witnesses do you propose calling, Mr Purshotam? MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON My question related to how many witnesses do you have that you propose calling now? MR PURSHOTAM At the moment, two. CHAIRPERSON Well, it might be convenient for us to make a beginning tomorrow morning. Can we start at half past nine? May we commence tomorrow morning at half past nine, if it is convenient to all of you? MR PRINSLOO Certainly, Mr Chairman MR WILKINSON Certainly, I should think so. CHAIRPERSON Mr Purshotam, can you manage it at half past nine tomorrow morning? MR PURSHOTAM Yes. CHAIRPERSON Very well. This meeting will now adjourn until half past nine tomorrow morning. Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS