amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-03-26 DURBAN THULANI MZOKHONA MYEZA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54702&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/durban/myeza.htm MR BRINK Mr Chairman this is the application of Thulani Mzokhona Myeza. MR ALBERTS Mr Chairman my surname is Alberts: Nel, Coetzer, van Dyk in Durban. I will be appearing on behalf of the applicant. CHAIRPERSON What are your initials Mr Alberts? MR ALBERTS H L. CHAIRPERSON Are you calling the applicant? MR ALBERTS That is correct. MR BRINK Mr Chairman just before he does so I may indicate that Mrs Zikhali is here. That is the widow of one of the deceased and I am informed that she opposes the application. CHAIRPERSON Well when the time comes you will put forward her views to us. THULANI MZOKHONA MYEZA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR ALBERTS Mr Myeza tell us where were you born? MR MYEZA In Gezinsila location, Eshowe. MR ALBERTS Can you tell us something about your family, do you have brothers and sisters. MR MYEZA Sorry. MR ALBERTS Tell us something about your family, do you have brothers and sisters? MR MYEZA I have a mother, two brothers and two sisters. My brothers are Nicholas and Vincent. My sisters are Noxolo and Jabu. I am the eldest. MR ALBERTS I see you also mention a brother Mbeki Myeza who died in 1996, how did he die? MR MYEZA I was in detention when he died. I do not know how, but I was told that he was sick. MR ALBERTS Tell us how did you get involved with the IFP? MR MYEZA There was violence in Eshowe between the IFP and the ANC. I then got into contact with the IFP leader in the location, Mr Dlulane. At that time, I ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Can you just give us the name of this person again, Mr who? MR MYEZA Mr Dlulane Nyawuza. He is the driver of uMntwana Gideon. MR ALBERTS Why did you get in touch with him? MR MYEZA We planned that we had to attack the ANC supporters who intended to disrupt the election in the location Eshowe. We then agreed to do that. CHAIRPERSON You talked about doing what to ANC members? MR MYEZA We had to shoot them because they were also shooting the IFP members. CHAIRPERSON Sorry I didn't get the interpreter. You talked about doing what to the ANC members? INTERPRETER ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Stamping out? INTERPRETER Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MYEZA We started attacking them. Mr Nyawuza would drive me in his Mazda, and leave me at a certain place, where I would shoot people. I was with another boys from Enseleni, namely Vusi Myeza and Phazimani ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON When you arrived where? MR MYEZA When we arrived at Nyanini, we destroyed there because they had killed Mbeshe Mahaye. He was killed near the bottle store. MR ALBERTS Mr Myeza I just want to take you back to your joining of the IFP. MR MYEZA I joined the IFP when we were paying for the cards. That was long ago. In the beginning of the 90's we were given another card written Inkatha Freedom Party. MR ALBERTS What was your reason for initially joining the IFP? MR MYEZA I joined the IFP because the people in the area where I was living belonged to the same party. MR ALBERTS When you grew up did you grow up in the traditional Zulu way or did you grow up in a western style? MR MYEZA Traditional way. MR ALBERTS Did you also comply with the Zulu customs for example slaughtering animals and having the traditional ceremonies? MR MYEZA Yes. MR ALBERTS The first incident that you apply for amnesty for is the killing of Mr Zikhali. Can you give us the detail of how that happened? MR MYEZA Yes. Mr Dlulane who was the leader of the IFP in the location took us to the Security Branch policeman, Thusi's house. I was with Vusi Myeza ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I think that rather that we have a sequential account, so if possible put your questions in such a way that you go step by step. I have an idea we are getting a somewhat disjointed explanation. Let's just talk about when was the decision taken to attack Zikhali, who took that decision, how was it taken, and then proceed as to precisely what was done. Very well. MR ALBERTS Yes Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Will you please do that? MR MYEZA The decision to kill Mr Zikhali was taken when we had a meeting. We had to plan how we were going to shoot him because he was eluding us. We had been looking for him for some time. CHAIRPERSON Just hold on. I want you to understand that what you are saying has to be translated to us in English so you have to talk in such a way that you give the translator time to translate what you are saying. Do you understand? MR MYEZA Okay. CHAIRPERSON And I think that the translator, she finds or he finds that his evidence is being given too fast he or she should remind the speaker to slow down. MR ALBERTS Mr Myeza when you had this meeting ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He said: "We took a decision to kill him." I think that you should ask him now who is we. MR ALBERTS Indeed Mr Chairman that is exactly my question now. When you took this decision who was at that meeting? MR MYEZA Mr Nyawuza was chairing the meeting. The people who were present were Vusi Myeza, Sbu Zuma and myself. MR ALBERTS And who was the person leading this meeting? MR MALAN Just before you get there ...[intervention] MR MYEZA Mr Nyawuza was given instructions. MR ALBERTS And what was decided at this meeting? MR MALAN Just before you get to the decision, who were these people, who was Dlulane? MR MYEZA Sorry? MR MALAN Who is this Mr Nyawuza Dlulane? MR MYEZA He is the driver of uMntwana Gideon. He was the leader of the IFP in Gezinsila location. I reported to him when I came to the location and the IFP members whose houses had been burnt were accommodated by him in his scrap yard. He was also providing them with food. CHAIRPERSON And who was Sbu Zuma? MR MYEZA Zuma was just an IFP member. He was staying at Mandini. CHAIRPERSON Very well take it from there. MR ALBERTS Thank you Mr Chairman. Why was the decision taken that Mr Zikhali had to die, what was the reason for that? MR MYEZA Mr Zikhali was the ANC member. People from Nyanini who were ANC members could no longer enter the location at that time, but Mr Zikhali used to drive his car, fetch the people from Nyanini and bring them in the location. MR ALBERTS And when he came into your area what did he do? MR MYEZA After bringing these boys in the location, IFP members would than be killed. CHAIRPERSON Just explain this to me, because the deceased would come into your area which is an IFP area people would die. What does that mean, how would people die just because a man came there? MR MYEZA Mr Zikhali was not the one who was doing the shooting. This was done by the people he brought in the location from Nyanini. At 10 pm, Mr Zikhali used to go fetch the Kentucky/Chicken Licken staff members from their place of the employment in town. He would then visit his girlfriend who stayed at Ntuli cottages. MR ALBERTS And did you have information stating that or is it just a suspicion that you had? CHAIRPERSON What did you see it? MR ALBERTS Or did you see that happen? MR MYEZA This was not just a suspicion. He used to bring people in the location. MR ALBERTS Did you see that happen or did you get information from somewhere else? MR MYEZA I once saw him doing it. MR ALBERTS Okay and what was the decision taken at ...(intervention) MR MALAN Sorry just before you. What did you see happening, him bringing people into the area or killing people in the area? MR MYEZA On the first day, on Saturday, a Ndlovu boy was shot and killed in the scrap yard. This happened after Zikhali has brought the ANC boys, like Schoolboy, in the location. The Eshowe police came there and instead of making arrests, they just continued shooting. Mr Zikhali thereafter drove off and left the scene. Nobody was arrested there. This happened during the day. MR ALBERTS Regarding the killing of this boy ...(intervention) MR MALAN Were you there, did you see this? MR MYEZA Yes, I was present. I saw it happening. CHAIRPERSON Just stop there. When this man came into the area with other people was there a fight between his people and the people in the area? MR MYEZA Yes, a fight would ensue. CHAIRPERSON And was it as a result of that fight that this Ndlovu boy died? MR MYEZA Yes, he died during that fight. CHAIRPERSON Were there other people that were involved in that fight? MR MYEZA From which party? CHAIRPERSON You have to have two groups of people if there has to be a fight isn't it? MR MYEZA It was the IFP and ANC members fighting. CHAIRPERSON Yes and were you part of the IFP that took part in the fight on that day when Ndlovu died? MR MYEZA These boys were brought on that day and they alighted near Mr Nyawuza's scrap yard. I was from the shop on that day and I saw this car driving past. These boys were ten. They walked toward the scrap yard and I then heard gunshots being fired by these boys who alighted from Zikhali's car. Zikhali then drove off. This IFP boy was left there. The police arrived and intervened. One of the ANC boys died at the scene was found by the heard boy the following day. CHAIRPERSON So you were not involved in that fight? MR MYEZA No, I was not personally involved on that day because I did not have a firearm. CHAIRPERSON Alright, now it as a result of this fight that Ndlovu boy died that you people took a decision about Zikhali? MR MYEZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR MALAN Sorry Mr Alberts. Could I just take you back. What time of day did this happen on that Saturday? MR MYEZA It was during the day, in full view of the public. MR MALAN And you said that the body was discovered only the next day, is that correct? MR MYEZA Yes. MR MALAN Did you run away yourself when you heard the shots? MR MYEZA Yes, I also ran away. MR MALAN Did you see the shooting or did you just hear the shots? MR MYEZA I saw where the firing was taking place. Not that I heard. I ran away after Ntokozo Ndlovu of the IFP was shot. CHAIRPERSON You can't run away because the Ndlovu boy died because you did not know the Ndlovu boy, his body was only discovered the following day. MR MYEZA No, I did not say the body of Ndlovu was found the following day, I said the body of one of the ANC boys, who was shot when the police arrived there, was found the following day. Ndlovu boy's body was taken by the police on the same day he was shot. MR ALBERTS Just to get this clear, did you see the body of the Ndlovu boy on that same day? MR MYEZA Yes. MR ALBERTS Was that only after you went back to see what has happened after the shooting had ended? MR MYEZA When I came back after the police have arrived, it was after all the shooting had ceased. I then saw the police removing the body of this Ndlovu boy. MR ALBERTS Was it because of the shooting that you initially ran away? MR MYEZA Yes, I ran away because of the shooting. It was also because I knew that they were also looking for me. MR ALBERTS When you saw this kombi did you also see Mr Zikhali at that time? MR MYEZA The car was driven by him on that day, not by his driver. MR ALBERTS Okay let's go back to the meeting that you had. MR MALAN Let me just get a bit more of the picture, the background. You say you knew they were looking for you, why were they at that stage looking for you? MR MYEZA It was because I was an IFP member. MR MALAN But there are millions of IFP members, they weren't looking for all the IFP members were they? MR MYEZA That is true. I was a person well known in the location because I was vocal. I used to approach people and tell them to stop what they were doing because they might find themselves in trouble in future. CHAIRPERSON Had you in the past attacked ANC people and that is why they were looking for you? MR MYEZA Before that, we became involved in skirmishes with the ANC people. This happened during the day and it was after the ANC members had killed a lot of people. CHAIRPERSON When you say we I am talking about you. I am talking about you, did you yourself ...[intervention] MR MYEZA I was involved, yes. CHAIRPERSON So you were known to them? MR MYEZA I knew that they were looking for me because there were other people who came from Pietermaritzburg on that day. I was a known person then. CHAIRPERSON And so you think that on that day they may have been looking for you? MR MYEZA They did not say but I could see by their actions that they were looking for me. CHAIRPERSON They didn't tell you that we are looking for you, you just assumed that they were looking for you? MR MYEZA This scrap yard that was attacked is where a lot of IFP members were staying. Their houses had been burnt at Nyanini and Mr Nyawuza had given them a shelter there. He built shacks for them there. This is the place then, that was always attacked by the ANC members. CHAIRPERSON But you couldn't have seen from their actions because when the shooting took place you were away from them. There was a shooting and you hid and you looked at it. So how could you see that they were looking for you? MR MYEZA I knew that they were looking for me because they had shot at me before. This happened a day after I was chased by people with firearms. CHAIRPERSON The question was relating to you. I am talking about you, how did you know that they were looking for you? MR MYEZA I knew because they shot at me before. CHAIRPERSON Alright, carry on. MR ALBERTS The shooting incidents that you mentioned between you and the ANC before this incident of the Ndlovu boy, where did that take place? MR MYEZA It happened in the location near Nsibande's house. MR ALBERTS Is that in the IFP area or in the ANC area? MR MYEZA This was an IFP area. There is also an ANC area in the location but is far. MR ALBERTS And how did you become involved in those shootings? MR MYEZA I was involved with Mr Dlulane because I was a resident in the location. One could not stay in the location if one was not an IFP member. You had to move out of the area. I stayed there because I am a boy from KwaZulu. I had to look for myself. MR ALBERTS What I am trying to get at, when this previous shootings took place who was doing the attacking? MR MYEZA ANC members were the ones who was doing the attacking. MR ALBERTS And were you shooting at them in defence? MR MYEZA I was shot because I was defending myself. MR ALBERTS Okay let's go back to the meeting regarding Mr Zikhali, was only Mr Zikhali discussed at that meeting? MR MYEZA Because of what Mr Zikhali did, we sat down and planned what we were going to do about him. He could move in and out of both areas whilst we could not do that. We realised that he was no longer involved with taxis as a taxis operator, but was now involved in politics. We planned how we were going to attack him. We were four when we planned, but there were only three of us who attacked him. We then went to ...[intervention] MR ALBERTS Just hold on a second. Was it a decision that was made between the four of you or was there somebody taking the lead and in fact eventually giving an order? MR MYEZA The person who was taking decisions was not there when we went to do this. After dropping us at a certain place, he drove to his house and waited there for us to phone him. That is Mr Dlulane. MR ALBERTS And when was it decided that this killing were to take place? MR MYEZA I think he was supposed to be killed in January 1993. This, however, did not happen as we planned. On this day then, we knew that his car had gone to the casino and we saw him being dropped somewhere by his driver. CHAIRPERSON When was this decision taken, when? MR ALBERTS Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON When was this decision taken? MR ALBERTS Yes when was the decision taken to have Mr Zikhali killed? MR MYEZA I cannot remember, but I remember that he was finally shot on a Sunday at about 8pm. MR ALBERTS I see the date of death as indicated on the inquest document is the 21st of November of 1993, how long before the incident did you come to this decision? MR MYEZA It took a long time. We started planning to kill him in 1992 and he was killed in 1993. We could not get him at that time, and violence intensified in 1993 in the location and IFP members were killed without any reason, and I was also shot. I do not know why they were being attacked. MR MALAN Mr Myeza, - Sorry Mr Alberts, I am just trying to get an idea when he was killed in relation to the decision taken. We have the dates, end of 1993 he was killed and you say in 1992 the decision was taken, can we try and approach this differently? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MALAN When you took the decision to kill Zikhali what did you do? MR MYEZA We were still deciding whether to kill him or talk to him so that he could stop what he was doing. I then said to Mr Nyawuza ...[intervention] MR MALAN No. Sorry for interrupting. Let's accept that you have now taken the decision, after the discussion he was to be killed, that decision was now taken, what did you then do to implement the decision? MR MYEZA There is nothing else we did other than to kill him. CHAIRPERSON You waited nearly a year to do that? MR MYEZA Yes, because we could not get hold of him. We only managed to get him when we heard that he had a girlfriend staying in Ntuli's cottages in the location. MR ALBERTS How did this girlfriend assist you in killing him? MR MYEZA Before we got hold of Mr Zikhali, our intention was to kill a Security Branch policeman. When we went to his house, we were disturbed by a dog, and that policeman came out of his house with an R4 rifle. We then ran away. As we were running away, we saw Mr Zikhali accompanied by his girlfriend. She was taking him to the bus stop where he was going to wait for his kombi to pick him up. Vusi Myeza, without asking him anything, then shot him. MR ALBERTS Can I just go back to my previous question, did the girlfriend actually assist you in killing or is it just the fact that you saw him with his girlfriend that assisted you? MR MYEZA No, his girlfriend did not assist us in anyway. She left him at the bus stop and went back into her house. We then got a chance to shoot him. MR ALBERTS Was it just by chance that you now saw him somewhere where you could get to him? MR MYEZA Yes, because he was walking on foot and not in his car. MR ALBERTS Okay tell us in detail what happened after you saw him going to the bus stop or rather to the taxi rank? MR MYEZA We followed him because we were on the road. We then saw his girlfriend leaving him alone, and we then used the opportunity to attack him. Myeza then shot him once in his chest. We then left. These boys ran to the scrap yard and I went to Mr Nyawuza's house. CHAIRPERSON Okay before we go to the details about where you went after the shooting, just give me some details about who was the person that did the shooting? MR MYEZA Vusi Myeza. CHAIRPERSON Were you also armed with a gun? MR MYEZA Yes, I had a firearm. CHAIRPERSON You didn't fire? MR MYEZA I did not shoot on that day. CHAIRPERSON So after he was shot what happened to him? MR MYEZA After he was shot, we ran away. I went to Nyawuza's house while these other boys went to Regina Gcabashe. I did not tell Mr Nyawuza of what we had done. Regina Gcabashe then phoned Mr Nyawuza and informed him that the boys had told her that they had been attacked. Mr Nyawuza and myself then got into his car to go and fetch these boys. Mr Nyawuza handed his shot gun to me ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I think that this is becoming a little confusing. Do you understand what is being said, are you getting a comprehensive picture of what he is saying? MR ALBERTS Mr Chairman, no not quite. CHAIRPERSON Well now why are you allowing it? MR ALBERTS Yes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Please I want you to understand that I would like this step by step. You have told us that after the shooting your friend Myeza and his companion went to somebody else's house, they went to that scrap yard and they went to somebody else's house. You went to Mr Dludlani and you reported to him that this man Zikhali had been killed, is that right? MR MYEZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Oh I thought you said: "I went and reported to Dludlani? MR MYEZA No, I did not tell him. A short time after my arrival the phone rang. CHAIRPERSON Alright so you went to Mr Dludlani's house and what did you do there? MR MYEZA I kept quiet because there was females around. We did not want them to know what we were doing. CHAIRPERSON Alright I don't want an explanation. What was the next thing that happened while you were at Mr Dludlani's house? MR MYEZA Regina Gcabashe who stay near the scrap yard then phoned and asked Mr Nyawuza to go and fetch the boys because they were being attacked. Mr Nyawuza then took his shotgun and gave it to me, and we went there. We found Vusi and Sbu Zuma and took them away. As we were driving past the place where we had shot Mr Zikhali, we saw the police taking his body away. We stopped our car to take a look, and Mr Nyawuza praised us for a job well done. MR MALAN Could you just please slow down a little so we can follow it? Would you tell us again, you went in the car to fetch Vuzi Myeza and Zuma? MR MYEZA Yes. MR MALAN And then you said something about the police taking the body? CHAIRPERSON Let's put it this way, where did you go to after you picked Vuzi Myeza and Zuma up? MR MYEZA We were on our way back to Mr Nyawuza's house. CHAIRPERSON And what happened there? MR MYEZA We went to sit at Mr Nyawuza's house, just to see whom did the police suspect. We realised that the police were not suspecting anyone of us. CHAIRPERSON My question was not all that, not what you suspected, my question was when you went to Nyawuza's place what happened if anything? MR MYEZA Nothing else happened. CHAIRPERSON Were the police there? MR MYEZA There were no police at Nyawuza's house. CHAIRPERSON Were the police in the vicinity of Nyawuza's place? MR MYEZA The police came and took Mr Zikhali's body. CHAIRPERSON You saw them? MR MYEZA Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON They picked up the body of Zikhali? MR MYEZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON There was no further shooting on that day in that area? MR MYEZA No, there was no further shooting. CHAIRPERSON Nothing further happened on that day? MR MYEZA Nothing happened until the following morning. CHAIRPERSON Right then that is the end of that chapter. MR ALBERTS Yes Mr Chairman. MR MALAN Sorry could I just get one follow up. You said there was a telephone call from Regina Gcabashe? MR MYEZA Yes. MR MALAN You went to fetch Vusi and Zuma, correct? MR MYEZA Yes. MR MALAN You went to Mr Nyawuza's place? MR MYEZA Yes. MR MALAN Is his place close to the scrap yard? MR MYEZA It is not that close to the scrap yard. MR MALAN So did you not go and investigate the attack that Mrs Gcabashe phoned about? MR MYEZA We had gone to fetch the boys, not that we went to investigate the attack. We knew what had happened there. MR MALAN Were the boys at Mrs Gcabashe's place, Vusi and Zuma? MR MYEZA They went into the scrap yard but thereafter went to report to Regina Gcabashe. She was also helping at the scrap yard. MR MALAN Were they attacked at the scrap yard? MR MYEZA No, they were not being attacked. This is the trick we use if something has happened in the location. MR MALAN What did you see there? MR MYEZA Nothing, we just went to fetch the boys. CHAIRPERSON Look here just understand, after the shooting incident when Zikhali was killed you received a telephone call whilst you were at this house from Mrs Gcabashe that there was an attack so you take your friends Vusi Myeza and the other friend of yours and you go there, was there an attack that the telephone call was all about? MR MYEZA No, there was no attack. CHAIRPERSON There was no attack. So on that day there was just this one incident when Zikhali was killed? MR MYEZA There was no fighting in the location on that day. CHAIRPERSON Yes can we move on to the next incident? MR ALBERTS Okay the next incident that you applied for amnesty for is that of the killing of a person by the name of Botha, is that the same person as Vusimuzi Mbokazi? MR MYEZA Botha was staying in the Ubambiswano School teacher's quarters. He was just a school attending boy. CHAIRPERSON No, just the question is, is he the same person? Is his full name Vusimuzi Muntukaziboni Mbukazi Botha, is that one person? MR MYEZA I do not know his surname. I know him as Botha. CHAIRPERSON Is that the only name by which you know him? MR MYEZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes do carry on about talking about this killing of Botha. MR ALBERTS Okay was a decision made to kill this Botha person? MR MYEZA Yes, we took a decision to kill Botha. MR ALBERTS Who was present when this decision was taken? MR MYEZA It was Mr Dlulane, Vusi Myeza and myself. MR ALBERTS The three of you? MR MYEZA Yes. MR ALBERTS And that is the same three persons that were involved in the meeting regarding Mr Zikhali, is that right? That is the same people you mentioned when you spoke regarding Zikhali? MR MYEZA We were four when we decided to kill Mr Zikhali. MR ALBERTS Yes but that is the same people, three of those people that were mentioned there are the three people you are mentioning now? MR MYEZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON When was this decision taken? MR MYEZA I cannot remember the date when Botha was killed, but it was a Saturday. MR ALBERTS Where was this meeting held? MR MYEZA We were at Mr Dlulane's house. MR ALBERTS And why was it decided that Botha was to be killed? MR MYEZA Mr Botha came to Mr Dlulane one day, after it was known that he was friendly to some ANC members. At that time, IFP supporters were no longer allowed to attend classes at Ubambiswano School. We were of the opinion that whenever Botha visited Mr Nyawuza's house in our absence, he would gather information and see whether Mr Nyawuza's house was guarded or not. We then decided, the three of us, that we must do something to him. We decided to shoot. MR ALBERTS Okay was this suspicion that you had regarding him being, let's call it a spy, is that something you saw or that you heard or is it just a mere suspicion? MR MYEZA We were not just suspecting. We knew that when he went to Mr Nyawuza's house when we were not there, he wanted to get some information from the boys who were also staying there. MR ALBERTS Okay but can you tell me how do you know that? MR MYEZA He was also in the company of the ANC boys, and was not attending IFP meetings in the location. MR ALBERTS If you say he was extracting information, how did he go about doing that? MR MYEZA He was asking the boys when we were going to a meeting and where. The boys would then report to us. Usually, after getting this information, our bus would then be ambushed on the way. That is how we knew that he was passing information. CHAIRPERSON So what did he do when he gathered this information about where meetings were going to be held, what did he do? MR MYEZA He was telling the ANC people that information. MR ALBERTS Are you trying to say that is why the bus or how the bus was attacked? MR MYEZA Yes. MR ALBERTS You also spoke about school kids not allowed to go to school, what was this Mr Botha's involvement in that? MR MYEZA He was involved in hitting the IFP youth members, especially the girls. He was in the forefront. He used to do this with other boys like Schoolboy and others. MR ALBERTS What do you mean he was in the forefront, did he do something physically? MR MYEZA They used to carry firearms and use to stab schoolgirls on their buttocks. They were doing this because these children were IFP members. CHAIRPERSON Let's just get this clear, I get a very confused picture from you. You say he would stop children from going to school, how would he stop children from going to school? MR MYEZA The children were attending school at Ubambiswano High School. When this violence started, they attacked these children and chased them away from the school. These children could no longer attend school. CHAIRPERSON So are you saying that he, this Botha and others would go to school and attack the children and the teachers at school? MR MYEZA I had warned Botha several times that they should not attack the children because they were just attending school. I told him that I did not like it. His reply was that it is because we were "klovas" (derogatory word referring to IFP members). CHAIRPERSON Did you see this happening? MR MYEZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Were you at the school when this happened? MR MYEZA Yes, I saw it with my own eyes. CHAIRPERSON So when you see this happening did you not go up to him and ask him why he is attacking the children? MR MYEZA I approached him. CHAIRPERSON So you were on talking terms with Mr Botha? MR MYEZA Yes, we were on talking terms with him. CHAIRPERSON What did he say when you asked him not to interfere with the children's schooling, what did he say? MR MYEZA He used to tell me that there was nothing I could do and that I was speaking on their behalf because we were all IFP members. ADV MOTATA Mr Myeza did he come out clear that he was an ANC member? MR MYEZA Yes. He told me that he was an ANC member and nobody would change him. ADV MOTATA So when initially you said it was known that he was an ANC sympathizer, that could not be correct then? MR MYEZA I would not know whether he had an ANC membership card, but the were wearing ANC T-shirts. MR MALAN Was this in the location? MR MYEZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON When he went and prevented children at school, he and his friends prevented children from studying at school you saw it, every other Inkatha member in that area, IFP member in the area would see him doing this? MR MYEZA Yes, other people saw them doing it. CHAIRPERSON And they did nothing about it? MR MYEZA The community could do nothing because it was afraid of the ANC children. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MYEZA Schoolboy, their secretary would be present with other boys. MR MALAN The question if I understood it correctly was: did the community, the Inkatha community in the location do nothing when Botha attacked the children? MR MYEZA No. MR MALAN Who came with Botha to tell these children not to go to school, was he on his own? MR MYEZA Schoolboy, their secretary would be present with other boys. MR MALAN Were they from the locatio, the other youths? MR MYEZA Yes, they were from the location. MR MALAN This is the youths with Botha who were ...(inaudible) - just leave that till I have finished. Please leave the microphone till I have finished the question because you won't be able to hear me if you switch on yours. The people who stopped the children from going to school, they were people that Botha was part of, were the others some of the school children or were they coming from outside the location? MR MYEZA Some of them were also attending school there, and were staying in the location. Some of them had fled the location and were staying in Nyanini. MR MALAN So these were people who came in from the Njanini, they weren't people from your area? MR MYEZA This is one area under the one iNgoso. It was a location and a missionary that is rural. MR MALAN Thank you Mr Alberts. MR ALBERTS These people when they came to the school did they just talk to the children or what did they do to chase children out of the school? MR MYEZA They would go to this school when children are on the break. The car would then drop them there and when the children go to the shops to buy, they would then approach them and attack them. MR ALBERTS Okay and at this meeting you later held what was the decision that you came to? MR MYEZA We decided that he should be shot dead because he did not want peace in the location. Mr Nyawuza then took out the rounds from ammunition from the firearm we got from another policeman stationed at Eshowe town. He gave those rounds to Vusi Myeza. I am the one who knew where this boy was staying and I then led them there. MR ALBERTS Just before we go onto that. Was that a decision that was taken unanimously by the three of you or was there an order given? MR MYEZA We were just followers of the IFP. The person in charge was Mr Dlulane. MR ALBERTS Was an order given? MR MYEZA Yes. MR ALBERTS How long after this incident was Botha eventually murdered? MR MYEZA We did not take a long time, we planned during the day and he was shot that evening. MR ALBERTS Okay you said you were to point out the house of Botha, when you left the meeting ...[intervention] MR MYEZA Yes, I went to point where he was staying. MR ALBERTS What happened after you left the meeting? MR MYEZA When we arrived there, we got into the house. I was with Vusi Myeza. We talked to him and asked him to show us the room that was to be let. He did not know the person who was with me. He then showed us that room that was unoccupied. He had a candle and Vusi then shot him twice. MR ALBERTS Where was he shot? MR MYEZA Vusi fired twice. I think he shot him on the head because Vusi was following him as he was going to show him this room. We thereafter ran to Mr Nyawuza's house. We reported this matter to him and he confirmed that he had heard a gunshot. MR ALBERTS After a shot was fired what did you then do? MR MYEZA Nothing happened after we shot him. What I remember is that his body was only found by the police the following day. MR ALBERTS And did you report to your superiors that the shooting was in fact done? CHAIRPERSON Which superiors? MR ALBERTS This Dludlani. MR MYEZA Yes, we told Mr Nyawuza that we had shot him. CHAIRPERSON In point of time when was this killing, do you know? MR ALBERTS Mr Chairman I see on the inquest it looks like 21/11 or 21/10/93 the person Mbukazi as far as I can gather. MR BRINK 21/11 Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Where does that appear Mr Brink? MR BRINK Page 47 of the papers about, after identification the deceased: adult male 27 years there is: 21/11/93. MR ALBERTS If that is in fact the person named Botha. As far as we can gather that is the inquest ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON So if that is correct then this happened the day after Zikhali was killed? MR ALBERTS That is correct. MR MYEZA As far as I can remember Botha is the first person to be killed. MR ALBERTS Did the two incidents happen within a day of each other? MR MYEZA I cannot say, but I think we killed Botha first, then Zikhali. CHAIRPERSON Where is the date? MR ALBERTS I see the date given on the two inquest documents are both 21/11/93. What time of the day was Botha killed? MR MYEZA Botha was killed at about 8:30 pm. MR ALBERTS Was he alone at his home? MR MYEZA Yes, he was staying alone. CHAIRPERSON How old was this person Botha? MR MYEZA Botha was a little older than me. CHAIRPERSON Yes carry on. MR ALBERTS Can we proceed to the next incident? The next incident would be the killing of ...(intervention) MR MALAN Sorry just before you proceed, just this one last question. Can you remember that Botha and Zikhali, that you killed them on the same day? MR MYEZA I cannot remember. MR MALAN Can you remember whether you killed them within a week or was it a year apart, what does your memory tell you? MR MYEZA It was the same year, either 1992/93. MR MALAN Are you sure that it wasn't on the same day? MR MYEZA I am sure it was not on the same day. CHAIRPERSON You see the court papers record that they were both shot, they give you the date of death as being the 21st of November 1993. MR MYEZA That is not true, they were not killed on the same day. CHAIRPERSON Well since you don't have a recollection of whether they were killed within the same month or within the same year your evidence is not very helpful. MR MYEZA It was the same year but not the same day. It could be the same month but definitely not the same day. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MYEZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Very well there is nothing we can do about that. Yes will you move on? MR ALBERTS The third incident that you are asking for amnesty is Bonginkosi Khanyile. Can you tell us who Bonginkosi Khanyile was? MR MYEZA I was told that Bonginkosi Khanyile was from Vuma area. I did not know him. He was accidentally killed. We were from the conference at Ensingweni. MR ALBERTS Who was this Mr Kanyele, was he an ANC member at the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No just, just don't put it like that. He says it was done by mistake. Let's just get some more details about where this was done, how it was done? You said that you were coming from a meeting, where was this meeting? MR MYEZA The meeting was Ensingweni where our IFP president was. CHAIRPERSON And what happened when you were coming from this meeting? MR MYEZA It was about 4 pm when we came back. We were in the bus and they through bottles at our bus. I then pursued him and asked him why they threw bottles at our bus. I then stabbed him with a knife. Muhle Mthethwa then came there and shot him with pellets on his eye. I am the one who stabbed him. CHAIRPERSON Just give me that name again, Muhle who? MR MYEZA Muhle Mthethwa. MR ALBERTS Did you see Mr Kanyele at the shops? MR MYEZA I saw him. MR ALBERTS And with who was he or who was with him? MR MYEZA They were four, sitting near the bottle store, drinking some beer. The other three managed to run away. MR ALBERTS Did they first throw bottles at your vehicle? CHAIRPERSON No, no. MR MYEZA They threw bottles at a bus. They did not throw stones. They had beer bottles. CHAIRPERSON The bus they threw bottles and stones at a bus. MR MYEZA They threw them at a bus. MR ALBERTS And where were the bottles thrown at or what? MR MYEZA (... no English translation) MR ALBERTS What bus are we talking about now? MR MYEZA The bus was carrying IFP supporters. MR ALBERTS And where were you at that time? MR MYEZA I was there. MR ALBERTS Do you know why stones were thrown at the bus, bottles? MR MYEZA Yes, I know why they were throwing bottles at our bus. MR ALBERTS Why is that? MR MYEZA It is because many IFP supporters were not in the area. They had attended this conference we were coming from. Because they are ANC members, they attack our bus. CHAIRPERSON So because they didn't attend the rally you regarded them as ANC members? MR MYEZA He could not have sat there with ANC members if he was not a member. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but then there were four of them? MR MYEZA I did not know them, but I knew one of them as a resident in the location. CHAIRPERSON You don't even know them? MR MYEZA We did not think that they were ANC supporters. We knew they were. The only person we did not know was the deceased because he was sitting with them, we thought he was also one of them. CHAIRPERSON And because they didn't attend the rally you took it for granted that they were all ANC? MR MYEZA They were wearing ANC T-shirts. MR ALBERTS Apart from them being with ANC members and not attending the rally, is there anything else that gave you the impression that he was an ANC member? MR MYEZA They were wearing ANC T-shirts. CHAIRPERSON On that day? MR MYEZA Yes. MR ALBERTS And who started throwing the bottles? MR MYEZA Khanyile started throwing stones. MR ALBERTS And did you people get off the bus? MR MYEZA Yes. MR ALBERTS Did you get off while the bottles were being thrown or only afterwards? MR MYEZA We got off at that time. MR MALAN May we hear the interpreters? CHAIRPERSON What did he say? MR ALBERTS Yes and what did you do when you got off the bus? MR MYEZA We got off, I grabbed him and stabbed him. Muhle then came there and shot him. MR ALBERTS When you got off the bus and stabbed him what was Mr Khanyile doing at that time? MR MYEZA He was running away but one could see he still wanted to come back and fulfil what he wanted to do. I then stabbed him. MR ALBERTS So do I understand you correctly there was no planning done before this incident, it happened on the spur of the moment? MR MYEZA Yes. MR ALBERTS And what is the reason for killing or stabbing Mr Khanyile? MR MYEZA The reason why I stabbed him is because he was throwing stones at our bus. I then pursued them when they were running away and I managed to catch him and then stabbed him on his shoulder with a knife. He tried to run away again ...[intervention] MR ALBERTS Were you with this other person who eventually shot Mr Khanyile at the time when he was shot? MR MYEZA Many people followed me when I got off the bus, but the person who shot him was Muhle. MR ALBERTS You also mentioned in a statement ...(intervention) MR MALAN Just before you proceed. Did you leave the body of Mr Khanyile there? Did any of the other members go to the body? MR MYEZA There were KwaZulu Police on that day. Mr Khanyile's body was then taken to the mortuary by the police. MR MALAN Did this attack on Khanyile happen in the presence of the police? MR MYEZA Yes. MR MALAN Were you arrested there? MR MYEZA Nobody was arrested. MR MALAN Did the police just allow you to leave? MR MYEZA Yes, that is true. MR MALAN And you say they saw the killing? MR MYEZA Yes, they did see when he was shot. MR MALAN When you started to give evidence on this incident you referred to the four people sitting on the stoep or sitting at the shops with their case of beer drinking beer and you said you did not know any of them. You also then already said it was a mistake, but when you were questioned you said you knew three of them. Do you have the names of the other three for us? MR MYEZA I know the first person as Peter Dludla. The other one is Dube, I do not know his first name. He was a special constable in the Police Service. MR MALAN And the third one? MR MYEZA The third one was Mvana Biyela. MR MALAN Did you know them to be ANC members? MR MYEZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Even the man who was a special constable, Dube? MR MYEZA Yes, he is a special constable in the police service. CHAIRPERSON I thought that special constables were taken and picked on amongst the Inkatha supporters. MR MYEZA It is true that the special constables were IFP supporters. Dube joined before this happened. After he was appointed as such, he then showed his true colours that he was an ANC supporter. MR MALAN Was he on duty that afternoon? MR MYEZA He was sitting at his house. He was from Ulundi, I think. MR MALAN Did he wear a uniform? MR MYEZA No, he was not wearing a uniform. MR ALBERTS I see in your initial application you give the name of Ngoso Dludla and Bonginkosi Khanyile as being the same person, is that correct? Is that the same person? MR MYEZA You mean Dludla. CHAIRPERSON Where are you reading from, just read it please? MR ALBERTS Page 2 of your application form. CHAIRPERSON Yes what does it say there? MR ALBERTS At number 4, third person Ngoso Dludla also known as Bonginkosi Khanyile. Is that the same person? CHAIRPERSON Let him have a look at that application form please. MR MYEZA Mr Dludla is someone else. MR ALBERTS Why I am asking the question is, in your statement that was added to your application for amnesty you also make mention of an incident where Ngoso Dludla was killed while you were out of town. MR MYEZA I have not mentioned Ngoso Dludla yet. MR MALAN That application form that you have before you is that your handwriting, did you fill that in or who did it for you? MR MYEZA This is not my handwriting. CHAIRPERSON Whose handwriting is it? MR MYEZA It is the handwriting of the policeman who came to take statements. CHAIRPERSON And all the information was given to him by you? MR MYEZA Yes, I can read. He wrote what was said by me. CHAIRPERSON Well now if you look at that page on page 2 where the names are written - just let him have it again please, did you give him the first name, Vusi Muzi Mundungazi Gaziboni Mbokazi? MR MYEZA I do not know this name Vusimuzi Mbokazi. There are people who were shot in the house that I did not know. I was told these names by the policeman. CHAIRPERSON Now then in the second line it also said also known as Botha do you see that? MR MYEZA I cannot dispute that Botha is also Vusimuzi Mbokazi because I did not know his real names. CHAIRPERSON Now what is the second name? MR MYEZA (... no English translation) CHAIRPERSON What is his name? MR MYEZA (...no English translation) CHAIRPERSON Read the third name. MR MYEZA Yes I can read, that third name is his. His name is Ngoso Dludla. I cannot dispute that his other name is Bonginkosi Khanyile. I only know him as Ngoso Dludla. CHAIRPERSON It says Ngoso? MR MYEZA I cannot dispute that. CHAIRPERSON Also known as Bonginkosi Khanyile. MR MYEZA I do not know. CHAIRPERSON So in respect of all these incidents in which you took part in killing you were not arrested nor were you charged? MR MYEZA Yes, that is true. CHAIRPERSON Why? MR MYEZA I know what caused all that. CHAIRPERSON I would like to know? MR MYEZA The reason why we were never arrested is because many police officers in Eshowe police station were IFP members. They were also providing us with information. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do complete your questioning. MR ALBERTS Okay the person you know as Khanyile and Ngoso Dludla is that the same person? MR MYEZA I will admit that that is the same person because that is how it is written down. MR ALBERTS What I am trying to find out, you gave us an explanation of how you stabbed one Bonginkosi Khanyile and he was later shot, is that the same person as Ngoso Dludla? MR MYEZA The person who was stabbed and shot was not Ngoso Dludla. Dludla's story is still a long one. MR ALBERTS You were not present when Ngoso Dludla was shot, is that right? MR MYEZA I was present when Ngoso Dludla was killed. MR ALBERTS Was a decision taken to have ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Hold it, "I was present" where? What happened? MR MALAN What was your question Mr Alberts, was he present where? MR MYEZA I was present when a decision was taken that he should be killed. I was also present when he was killed. MR ALBERTS Who else was present when the plan was made to kill him? MR MYEZA Thandazani Linda, Mr Nyawuza, Muhle Mthethwa and myself were there. MR ALBERTS Who is Thandazani Linda? MR MYEZA Thandazani Linda came from eNseleni. He was the guard in Mr Nyawuza's house. MR ALBERTS Muhle Mthethwa who was he? MR MYEZA Muhle Mthethwa was an IFP member from Mandini. MR ALBERTS Why was it decided that Mr Dludla had to be murdered? MR MYEZA I cannot say why Mr Ngoso Dludla was killed because this was not done by my hand. What I know is that Mr Nywwuza was not in good terms with Dludla because of the attack on his wife. Mr Nyawuza's wife was shot in 1993 ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Just give us the name of the person? MR MYEZA I do not know Mr Dlulane's name. His familiar name in the location is Nyawuza. MR ALBERTS Is that the same person you have been referring to in your previous testimony? MR MYEZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Alright so now I am not fast, I didn't take down. I want you to tell me now why do you think that Ngoso Dludla was killed? MR MYEZA The reason why Ngoso Dludla was killed is because Mr Nyawuza's house was one day attacked, and his wife was shot. MR ALBERTS What is the name of the wife of Dlulane Nyawusa? MR MYEZA Fakazile Gumede. MR ALBERTS Was it suspected that Dludla had something to do with the killing of this lady? MR MYEZA He was suspected. They in fact said he should be the first person to be killed. MR ALBERTS But you didn't know it, you just accepted the word of the other people at this meeting? MR MYEZA Yes. MR ALBERTS And what was then decided regarding Mr Dludla? MR MYEZA It was decided that he should be fatally shot. MR ALBERTS How long was the plan to have him killed implemented? MR MYEZA It took a long time for Mr Ngoso Dludla to be killed because his parents had taken him away from the area and he was now attending school at Gqikazi in Nongoma area, where he was with Nyawuza's children. MR ALBERTS Just to come back regarding one aspect of this meeting, was it decided between the people at the meeting that he should be killed or was an order given? CHAIRPERSON What is meant by: "an order given" when they are all agreeing among themselves that he should be killed? Who issues orders then? MR ALBERTS Mr Chairman I am just trying to establish was it decided between themselves or was it somebody who made the decision on their behalf. MR MYEZA We, as supporters, were just told what we were supposed to do. We would then follow that order. MR ALBERTS From who did you receive this instruction? MR MYEZA Mr Nyawuza. MR ALBERTS When did this meeting take place, can you remember the date? MR MYEZA I think we decided about Dludla in 1992. MR ALBERTS And how long after this meeting was Mr Dludla in fact murdered? MR MYEZA He was killed in Easter in 1993. MR ALBERTS Can you tell us how it happened that he was killed? MR MYEZA On that day, the Thursday, I was supposed to leave for Newcastle. However, I did not leave because the ANC was going to hold a meeting in Nyanini. I then saw Mr Dludla leaving the place he was staying and he went to a shebeen. MR ALBERTS Were you waiting for him at that time? Did you know that he was going to pass by there? MR MYEZA I was visiting at Khuzwayo's house when I saw him walking past. CHAIRPERSON Where was this ANC rally to be held? MR MYEZA It was going to in Nyanini. It was not a rally, but a meeting. CHAIRPERSON Oh I thought you said it was a rally, maybe it is the translation. MR ALBERTS Just to come back to my question. CHAIRPERSON Hold it. Dludla was on his way to an ANC meeting at Nyanini, and then what happened? MR MYEZA He went to a shebeen, and stayed there until late in the evening. The people who were ordered to kill him namely Muhle Mthethwa from Mandini and Thandazani Linda were there. When he came out, they then shot him. They carried him after he died and put him in the passage near his house. CHAIRPERSON Just tell us who shot him? MR MYEZA Muhle Mthethwa is the one who fired a shot. MR ALBERTS Were you present when he was shot? MR MYEZA I was present and saw everything MR ALBERTS After the body was dumped what ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry did anybody else take part in the shooting besides Muhle Mthethwa? MR MYEZA Nobody else shot him. After that, Thandazani and Muhle carried him and dumped his body in the passage near his house. MR ALBERTS After the body ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Please just hold it. What passage are you talking about? You say the body was dumped next to the passage, what passage was that? MR MYEZA This is a thoroughfare used by pedestrians in the location when they go to other sections in the location. MR ALBERTS And after the body was dumped what happened? MR MYEZA I heard them saying that some of his body parts should be removed because a certain invanga wanted them. I did not want to be involved in removing some of his body parts because we had done what Mr Nyawuza had ordered us to, that is to kill him. They removed some of his parts. MR ALBERTS Were you present when that happened, when the body was mutilated? MR MYEZA I was not present when his body was mutilated. MR ALBERTS And where did you go to? MR MYEZA I went to Khuzwayo's house. MR ALBERTS Did you report this incident to anybody? MR MYEZA I did not tell anybody. MR ALBERTS Just to take you back to one aspect, did you know why the wife of Dludlani was killed? MR MYEZA No, Mr Nyawuza's wife was not killed, she was shot and her hip was injured. MR ALBERTS Sorry but did you know why that was done, why it happened? MR MYEZA His house was attacked because he was an IFP leader. CHAIRPERSON He won't know, he just thinks so it doesn't take the matter very much further. We will take the short adjournment at this stage and resume in 15 minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR ALBERTS Mr Chairman there are two incidents mentioned in a statement by the applicant that is attached to his application that happened before the cut-off date but it is not mentioned in his form 1, the application itself. I don't know whether I will have permission to proceed in leading evidence in that regard. CHAIRPERSON Where are they? MR ALBERTS It is on page 24 and 25, middle paragraph on page 24 and the first paragraph on page 25. MR MALAN Mr Alberts, are you referring to the Mahaye incident and the son of Nthuli? MR ALBERTS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON This is in the form of an affidavit. This statement is in fact an affidavit isn't it? MR ALBERTS That is correct, its heading says affidavit but it was however not deposed as an affidavit. CHAIRPERSON Well it does appear to be, page 27. MR BRINK In fact Mr Chairman the typewritten document appears to be a transcript of the handwritten document which appears from page 8 to page 20 and it appears on page 20 that in fact the applicant affixed his thumb print and the Commissioner of Oaths certified it. MR ALBERTS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And is it his desire to apply for amnesty in respect of these matters? MR ALBERTS That is correct Mr Chairman. MR MALAN Mr Alberts, may I also refer you to page 26 at the top there, the reference to two school boys, are you not including that as well? MR ALBERTS I apologise, yes that should also be included. MR MALAN You may proceed. CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink may not this be, may produce some difficulties in the sense that parties who may have an interest in this matter are not here? MR BRINK That is absolutely correct. CHAIRPERSON And there is no way of finding out whether they may not have a view that might affect the facts that are set out? MR BRINK Indeed. CHAIRPERSON In these paragraphs. MR BRINK Indeed. I think with great respect Mr Chairman, it would be inadvisable to proceed with this aspect of the application at this stage. CHAIRPERSON Unless we hear his evidence and then you take it upon yourself to obtain affidavits from the affected parties only to the extent that they may have a view of the fact that are different and then you obtain those affidavits to place their version of the facts. MR BRINK Yes, that could be done. CHAIRPERSON And we may postpone taking a decision on the matter and you and Mr Alberts can go through those facts to find out whether there is any difficulty between the two of you, otherwise it might mean postponing this application and then sitting again on another day when the three of us may not be sitting together for a long time. MR BRINK Yes, I see the problem. CHAIRPERSON What do you say to that? Yes I think that it is only proper that we will not make a decision on this matter until the dependants and the relatives have had an opportunity to express their views concerning them, concerning the matters that affect them. In the meanwhile we will allow and we will accept his application in respect of these matters so you may start, you may proceed with them. MR ALBERTS Thank you Mr Chairman. You also made mention in your affidavit of an attack of the Msomi kraal. Was there a meeting held to decide on this aspect? MR MYEZA We were still talking about Ngoso. MR ALBERTS Mr Chairman. I don't know if anybody else has something further about Ngoso or the previous incident that we dealt with? CHAIRPERSON Well for the time being we haven't but we may ask him questions if the need arises. MR ALBERTS Thank you. Okay we moving onto the attack on the kraal of Msomi now, was a meeting held? CHAIRPERSON No, start off with, instead of whether a meeting was held, start off with what was done, what did these people do before you talk to him about what the meeting was about isn't it? MR ALBERTS Yes, Mr Chairman. Do you know why the kraal of Msomi was attacked? MR MYEZA Yes. MR ALBERTS What was the reason? MR MYEZA The reason why Msomi's kraal was attacked is because another boy, namely Mbeshe Mahaye was killed. MR ALBERTS Do you know by whom he was killed? MR MYEZA I do not know why Mbeshe was killed, I only received a message that he was killed. MR ALBERTS Did you suspect anybody? CHAIRPERSON Well they just received a message that he had been killed. Did you know this man Mahaye? MR MYEZA Yes, I knew him. CHAIRPERSON When was he killed? MR MYEZA It was in 1993/94, as far as I can remember. CHAIRPERSON Where was this man from, Mr Mahaye? MR MYEZA Mahye was from Mkhukhuze, in Nyanini. It is in Exhowe area. CHAIRPERSON You received a message that he had been killed, what happened after that? MR MYEZA We came together, we IFP boys. A KwaZulu policeman was also present. CHAIRPERSON Just give me the names of the people who gathered? MR MYEZA The KwaZulu policeman was Ngema, I have forgotten his first name. Another person was Thokozani Ntuli. He was not a KwaZulu police but an IFP member. Mbeshe Mahaye's brothers, namely Mso and Kusakusa were also present. Kusakusa is still a KwaZulu policeman. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell that? MR MYEZA K U S A K U S A. CHAIRPERSON B-U-S-A? Yes do carry on. MR MYEZA I do not know the other people because there was many. Thulani Myeza, Thokozani Ntuli, Kusakusa Mahaye and myself. CHAIRPERSON There was yourself. MR MYEZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Where did you gather? MR MYEZA We met in the scrap yard. MR ALBERTS What was decided at this meeting? MR MYEZA We decided that we must destroy these boys houses because they had killed another boy. MR ALBERTS Why was the kraal of Mr Msomi chosen? MR MYEZA The message we received ...[intervention] MR ALBERTS What was the message? MR MYEZA The message was that the people who killed Mbeshe were staying at Msomi's place. MR ALBERTS Yes but what does that have to do with Mr Msomi, why was he chosen? MR MYEZA The reason why Msomi's house should be attacked is because the boys who murdered Mbeshe stayed there. MR ALBERTS And how did you know the identity of the attackers or that they were there at Msomi's place? MR MYEZA That is the message we got, that these boys were at Msomi's kraal. MR ALBERTS And what was decided at this meeting? MR MYEZA We decided to go and destroy Msomi's house. MR ALBERTS Was that a decision taking by everybody together or was it one person that made the decision? MR MYEZA This was a decision from all of us. MR ALBERTS Did you immediately after this meeting proceed to the kraal of Mr Msomi? MR MYEZA We first sent the KwaZulu police to this house, so that these people would think the police were the ones who were coming there. We then followed the police. MR ALBERTS Was that on the Sunday? MR MYEZA Yes. MR ALBERTS Okay you now follow the KwaZulu Police to the kraal, what happened at the kraal? MR MYEZA We went in and destroyed the whole kraal. MR ALBERTS How many people were you at that time when you attacked the kraal? MR MYEZA We were more then twenty. MR ALBERTS Were you armed? MR MYEZA Yes, we were armed. I had a firearm and other people had homemade firearms. MR ALBERTS If you say you destroyed the kraal, what did you do? MR MYEZA When we arrived there, we dosed the kraal with petrol that we had, and we set it alight. MR ALBERTS Did anybody die on that day? MR MYEZA The police did tell me that some of the people were killed there. MR ALBERTS Do you know how these people died? MR MYEZA They were burnt in the house. There was also a girl from Durban who was visiting. MR ALBERTS How did they die? MR MYEZA Before the kraal was set alight, a shot was fired while we were outside there. MR ALBERTS Apart from the burning of the huts, were shots fired, was anybody physically assaulted? MR MYEZA ...[no English translation] MR ALBERTS And after these houses were set alight what did you do then? MR MYEZA We then left. MR ALBERTS Yes where did you go to? MR MYEZA We went to other kraals in that Nyanini area. We did the same to those kraals, and we thereafter left. MR ALBERTS Do you know who the other people are whose kraals were attacked? MR MYEZA I do not know the owners of that other kraals in Nyanini. MR ALBERTS Apart from the Msomi household, can you give us any other names of people whose kraals were attacked? MR BRINK Mr Chairman, I am sorry to interrupt but this aspect of the matter is not covered by the affidavit. I don't think it with respect be included in this application. CHAIRPERSON Is this talking about the Msomi house? MR ALBERTS Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Alright now before you attacked the Msomi house did you satisfy yourself that there were people living in the house? MR MYEZA We did not ascertain whether there were any people in the house, we just attacked without knocking. CHAIRPERSON What time of the day was this? MR MYEZA It was during the night. CHAIRPERSON But were you expecting people to be there in the house? MR MYEZA We knew there were people living in those kraals. CHAIRPERSON What did the police do that went ahead of you, what did the police do at this place? MR MYEZA The police did not enter Msomi's kraal. CHAIRPERSON What did they do? MR MYEZA They walked past and went to wait at Mbeshe Mahaye's kraal. CHAIRPERSON Where who had been stabbed, Mbeshe Mahaye? MR MYEZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MR ALBERTS Can you remember the date of this attack on the kraal of Msomi? MR MYEZA I think it was in 1994/95. MR ALBERTS I see in your statement you state it was in 1994 before the elections, is that more or less correct? MR MYEZA Yes. MR MALAN Sorry Mr Alberts this is rather crucial, it's not a question of more or less correct. If it is after the elections then there is no application, so could you try and establish whether he has any recollection as to the relative date relating to the elections? MR ALBERTS Have you got any idea, do you know if it was before the election or after the election? MR MYEZA I cannot remember because this happened long ago, I think it was in 1994, before the election. MR ALBERTS You gave us two times, initially you said 1993/1994 or 1993 beginning of 1994 and now later you say 1994/1995, which is now correct? MR MYEZA I think it was before the election. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MR ALBERTS This Mbeshe Mahaye, who was he? MR MYEZA Mbeshe Mahaye was an IFP supporter. MR ALBERTS And do you know why he was killed? MR MYEZA Yes, I know why he was killed. MR ALBERTS What is the reason? MR MYEZA He was an IFP member. MR ALBERTS And after the attacks on these houses, did you all go back, where did you go to then? MR MALAN Sorry Mr Alberts, the answer was that he was killed simply because he was a member of the IFP. Was he a youth leader in the IFP? MR MYEZA He was the leader of the youth. MR MALAN What was his position? MR MYEZA He was just a secretary of the place where he was staying. MR MALAN Which particular place is this? MR MYEZA Mkhukhuze. MR MALAN You said initially when asked that you know him very well, is that correct? MR MYEZA Yes. MR MALAN When you were asked in the beginning whether you know Mbeshe Mahaye your response as it came over through the interpretation service was: "I know him very well." MR MYEZA Yes. MR MALAN Was he ever part of your group that went attacking ANC's? MR MYEZA No, he was not some of our group. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MR ALBERTS The other incident that you mention was the son of Ngodini Nthuli. Who was this person, the son of Ngodini Nthuli? MR MYEZA I do not know the name of this Ngodini Ntuli son. MR ALBERTS Why was he killed? MR MYEZA He was killed because he was a member of the ANC. MR ALBERTS Did he have any position in the ANC, any specific reason why? MR MYEZA I knew him as the teacher in the area. I do not know whether he had a position in the ANC. MR ALBERTS And who decided that he had to be killed? MR MYEZA The person who decided that he should be killed is Nyawuza. MR ALBERTS And who was present when this decision was made? MR MYEZA Bonga Dlamini was present. MR ALBERTS Only him, you and Dludlani? CHAIRPERSON He didn't say he was. MR MYEZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Were you present as well? MR MYEZA Yes, I was present. MR ALBERTS And did Dlulane give any reason why Nthuli had to die? MR MYEZA There are reasons, yes. MR ALBERTS What reason did he give? MR MYEZA Mr Nyawuza and him once argued to the extent they drew firearms and wanted to shoot each other. MR ALBERTS Do you know what happened during that confrontation? MR MYEZA It was because of the political party. MR ALBERTS Yes, do I understand you correctly that there was a shooting incident? MR MYEZA They did not shoot each other, they just drew their firearms and a person who was present had to intervene. MR ALBERTS Were you present? MR MYEZA No. MR ALBERTS After the meeting regarding Ntuli, or let me put it this way first, who made the decision that Ntuli must die, was it one person that said Nthuli must die or was it a consensus that was arrived at? MR MYEZA The person who ordered that Mgodini's son should be killed is Mr Nyawuza because he is the one who had an argument with him. MR ALBERTS Nyawusa that is the same person as Dlulane? MR MYEZA Yes. MR ALBERTS Can you remember when this meeting took place? CHAIRPERSON Let's just talk about when the shooting took place or the confrontation, when did that take place? MR ALBERTS The confrontation between Dlulane and Ntuli's son do you know when that took place? MR MYEZA It happened in 1993. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR ALBERTS Can you remember when this meeting deciding on the murder of Ntuli's son took place? MR MYEZA The meeting was held in 1993 that he should be killed. MR ALBERTS And do you know whether this decision was ever implemented? MR MYEZA ...[no English translation] MR ALBERTS How long after this meeting did the eventual death of Mr Ntuli take place? MR MYEZA I still remember the date. MR ALBERTS Do you remember the date of the incident when Ntuli died? MR MYEZA It was a Saturday. MR ALBERTS Yes when was that? MR MYEZA I cannot remember the day. CHAIRPERSON What month? MR MYEZA I cannot remember. MR ALBERTS Do you remember the year? MR MYEZA It was 1995. MR ALBERTS Are you sure about the year? MR MYEZA I am sure about the year, it was 1995. MR ALBERTS Do you remember whether it was before or after the first election? MR MYEZA I cannot remember which election. CHAIRPERSON Were you present when Ntuli's son was killed? MR MYEZA I was there on the day of his killing. CHAIRPERSON How many of you? MR MYEZA Two of us were to kill him. The KwaZulu Police were however accompanying us. CHAIRPERSON Now just first tell us about those who were with you. You say there were two besides you? MR MYEZA It was Sbonga Dlamini. CHAIRPERSON Yes and who else? MR MYEZA Bheki Sibiya, a KwaZulu policeman. CHAIRPERSON How was Ntuli killed? MR MYEZA We parked a hippo near his house. Sbonga Dlamini, who had a teargas canister in his hand then got off. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR MALAN Where did he get that teargas? MR MYEZA We got the teargas from the KwaZulu police. MR MALAN Who gave it to him? He had it in his hand, was it given to him, was it given to some one else? MR MYEZA Sbonga Dlamini had it in his hand. MR MALAN Did Nyahusa Dludlani, did he give it to him? MR MYEZA Bheki Sibiya, who was the driver of the hippo on that day, is the one who took it out. MR ALBERTS Yes, he was given this teargas and what happened then? MR MYEZA We stopped near Mtuli's house, and Sbonga got off. MR ALBERTS Did he only have the teargas in his possession? MR MYEZA He had a canister and a parabellum that takes 16 cartridges. MR ALBERTS Are you now talking about a type of firearm? CHAIRPERSON What is a 16 shoot calibre? MR MYEZA A parabellum. MR ALBERTS Parabellum, is that a 9mm? MR MYEZA Yes. MR ALBERTS Did only he get out of the vehicle? MR MYEZA Yes. MR ALBERTS Okay what happened when he got out of the vehicle? MR MYEZA He knocked at the door and Ntuli boy opened the door, Sbonga then removed the pin of the canister and through the canister into the house. This boy then tried to run out of the house, and Sbonga shot him. He then came back, got into the hippo and drove off. MR ALBERTS Yes? MR MYEZA We drove off. MR ALBERTS Did you see the son being shot? MR MYEZA Yes. I saw because it happened near the door. MR ALBERTS We got into the hippo, where did you go to then? CHAIRPERSON Just hold it, it is going too fast. MR MYEZA (... no English translation) CHAIRPERSON So when the Ntuli boy ran out of the house who shot him? MR MYEZA Sbonga Dlamini shot him. CHAIRPERSON What did you do? MR MYEZA I was keeping guard at another house for the people who might come out. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR ALBERTS Were you also armed? MR MYEZA Yes, I had a G3 machine rifle. MR ALBERTS Did you fire any shots? CHAIRPERSON What did he have? MR MYEZA G3. CHAIRPERSON What is that? MR ALBERTS It is a machine rifle. Did you fire any shots? MR MYEZA We did not shoot further because nobody came out of the house. MR ALBERTS When Dlamini got into the Hippo, where did you go to? MR MYEZA We went back to Nyawuza's house. MR ALBERTS Did you report this to anybody? MR MYEZA We reported to Mr Nyawuza Dlulane. MR ALBERTS You also mentioned in your statement the matter where two school boys were killed by Sibonga Dlamini. CHAIRPERSON This is now page 26? MR ALBERTS That is correct. Do you know why these two school boys were shot? CHAIRPERSON How many school boys? MR ALBERTS Two school boys. MR MYEZA Who killed them? MR ALBERTS I am referring to two school boys according to your statement who was killed by Sibonga Dlamini. MR MYEZA That is another story. CHAIRPERSON Do you know anything? MR MYEZA Yes, I was not there, but I was present when the decision was taken that they should be killed. CHAIRPERSON I don't think that he was involved in the matter if you read that paragraph was he? MR MYEZA ... (no English translation) MR ALBERTS Do you know why ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You didn't take part in the killing? Because he wasn't even there? MR MYEZA I did not kill anybody there. CHAIRPERSON He committed no offence. MR ALBERTS I will then move on. CHAIRPERSON That is it. MR ALBERTS It seems from your evidence that there were a lot of shootings between the two parties, what would you describe the condition in the area between the parties at the time? MR MYEZA There was a no good relationship between the IFP and ANC in the Eshowe area. MR ALBERTS Can you give us an idea why all this fighting took place, what was the reason for the fighting? MR MYEZA What caused the friction in Eshowe is the affiliation to the two parties. The ANC started this by conducting meetings in the location and ordering everybody to become an ANC member. MR ALBERTS What did you try to achieve by these killings that you were involved in? MR MYEZA We were doing this as we were also trained as SPU's, because we were getting money. We were given money, but later this stopped. Mr Nyawuza would bring the firearms and tell that we were supposed to kill co many. MR ALBERTS How did you think at the time your actions would help the IFP? MR MYEZA I was told that if the ANC still had leaders my party would not prosper. MR ALBERTS And did you attack these opposition party members then to get them out of the area? MR MYEZA Yes. MR ALBERTS You mentioned being trained as an SPU member, when did this training take place? MR MYEZA The training took place in 1993, before election. MR ALBERTS By whom were you trained? MR MYEZA We were trained at eMandleni. MR ALBERTS And how would you consider or describe your role in this whole conflict, what would you say your role was? MR MYEZA The role I played in all this is that I was being called to go and kill people. CHAIRPERSON So a killer is called a facilitator? MR ALBERTS Wouldn't a better word be something like a hit-man? CHAIRPERSON Well he was a facilitator. That is what he means. If one kills somebody the killer is a facilitator, is that right? INTERPRETER (Explanation) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR ALBERTS And how do you feel about all these people that died by your hand or with your cooperation? MR MYEZA I am not boasting, I feel very sorry about what happened. MR ALBERTS And is there something you want to say to the family of the victims of these actions of yours? MR MYEZA Yes. To the families of the people I killed, I ask them to forgive me. I did not intend doing this. It happened when violence was still very rife in Eshowe area. I was also used to commit these murders because those people who were sending me to do this provided me with everything like firearms, etc. I was doing this for the location of Gezinsila. Today, My Nyawuza is happily living in the area now. Many families lost their breadwinners because those breadwinners did not see eye to eye with Mr Nyawuza. I ask those people to forgive me, not because I want to be freed from gaol. It is not for me to say what they should do, but just to say that I am guilty. I am really sorry. MR ALBERTS Yes? MR MYEZA That is all. MR ALBERTS The matter for which you are apparently serving a sentence is not one of the matters you did apply for amnesty for, you know that? MR MYEZA Yes, I did ask for amnesty for these two cases I am serving sentences for. MR ALBERTS You however realise that those matters fall after the cut-off date of amnesty and that you are not going to get amnesty on those. MR MYEZA I applied before closing date. MR ALBERTS Just one last aspect, what made you become what you call a facilitator, what made you go to this Dludlani and say to him: "Let me help you"? What prompted you to do that? MR MYEZA The reason why I realised that I was being used, is because the promises made to me were now not being fulfilled. MR ALBERTS Thank you Mr Chairman nothing from my side. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ALBERTS CHAIRPERSON Who made these promises to you? MR MYEZA Mr Dlulane. CHAIRPERSON What were these promises? MR MYEZA He promised me that I would be employed as a member of the KwaZulu police because people who were doing as I was doing were the ones that were sought. CHAIRPERSON What sort of work have you been doing? MR MYEZA I never worked. CHAIRPERSON And Mr Nyawuza what work does he do? MR MYEZA Mr Nyawuza is working, he is a driver of uMntwana Gideon. CHAIRPERSON Oh yes sorry, yes. MR ALBERTS Nothing further from my side. CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK Thank you Mr Chairman. I just want to deal firstly with the murder of Mr Ntuli's son. Did you in your evidence say that that took place in 1995? MR MYEZA Yes, I remember it happened in 1995, I had just been released from prison. MR BRINK When were you released from prison? MR MYEZA I was released on 2 July 1994, it was a Tuesday. MR BRINK So the murder of Ntuli's son took place after that date in July 1994, is that what you are saying? MR MYEZA It was long after I was released from prison. MR BRINK But certainly after July 1994? CHAIRPERSON Yes he said that. MR BRINK Ja. MR MYEZA Yes. MR BRINK Now I want to deal with Mr Zikhali. In your evidence I think you said that you saw Mr Zikhali waiting at the bus stop or the rank waiting for transport, you approached him, he was shot and you then left but that the shooting was done by Vusi Myeza? MR MYEZA Yes, that is true. MR BRINK Now when you made your affidavit, that is the supplementary affidavit to your application on the prescribed form - I refer to page 24 Mr Chairman, this is what you said regarding Mr Zikhali "Concerning the killing of Mr Zikhali who is an ANC member, the instruction came from Mr Dlulane also known as Nyawusa to go and kill Zikhali in Gensinsile location where he had visited his girlfriend at a cottage" Do you remember saying that? MR MYEZA Yes. MR BRINK You went on "I and Mr Dludlani who was the driver to Gideon Zulu conveyed Sbu Zuma and Vusi Myeza to near the Bonamuva School where Fana Ntuli's cottages are situated." Do you remember saying that? MR MYEZA Yes. MR BRINK What you said was "I and Mr Dludlani who was the driver to Gideon Zulu conveyed Sbu Zuma and Vusi Myeza to near the Bonamuva School where Fana Ntuli's cottages are situated." MR MYEZA Will you repeat what you said about Fana Ntuli? CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR BRINK You then went on "Vusi Myeza was armed with a .38 special revolver and Sbu Zuma had a 9mm pistol." Did you say that? MR MYEZA Yes, that is what I said to the detectives, but I did not put it that way here. MR BRINK I am talking about the affidavit which is put up in support of your application for amnesty. CHAIRPERSON Let him have a look at it if he has a doubt Mr Brink, please? MR BRINK Sorry I thought he had one. CHAIRPERSON No his handwriting, is that in his handwriting? MR BRINK I very much doubt it because he puts his thumb print to the affidavit. So ...(indistinct) is illiterate. CHAIRPERSON Ask him if he can read. MR BRINK Are you able to read English? MR MYEZA I will be able to read it if it is written in Zulu. MR BRINK Alright well let me take it slowly. I will read to you what is here and it will be interpreted into Zulu. CHAIRPERSON You don't have to read what you have already read. MR BRINK No. "After thirty minutes we fetched them at the scrap yard near Nkanyezi Magistrate's Court as arranged." MR MYEZA Yes. MR BRINK "Before we could fetch them they telephoned to say that they had killed him. Sbu Zuma killed him." What do you say to that? MR MYEZA No, I did not put it that way. MR BRINK Was this document read back to you or not? I will leave it Mr Chair. Now I am going to deal briefly with Mr Ngoso Dludla. I think you said in your evidence that after he was killed there was some attempt at mutilation of his body. MR MYEZA Yes. MR BRINK Well you see the postmortem report seems to indicate - I am referring to page 41 Mr Chair and members of the Committee., indicates that in regard to the body of Bonginkosi Khanyile who you in your application on more than one occasion referred to as being the same person as Ngoso Dludla, it was the body of Mr Khanyile which appeared to be mutilated, that half his face was moved as a result of having been cut away by a sharp blade and something was pushed, I can't read, something was pushed through the left eye. Now what do you say to that? MR MYEZA That is a mistake. MR BRINK But this relates to the body of Mr Khanyile, is that not the same person as Mr Ngoso Dludla? MR MYEZA I will agree with how you put it, but I know him as Ngoso Dludla. MR BRINK Alright so we can accept that Mr Ngoso Dludla is the same person as Mr Khanyile. MR MYEZA That is possible, I cannot dispute it. MR BRINK Mr Chairman I am now referring to page 25 of the affidavit. MR MALAN Mr Brink, just before you proceed, is it not possible that there is a mistaken identity of the individual that was killed at the occasion where the beer bottles were thrown at the bus? MR BRINK Yes, one can't exclude that possibility. But in any event you say that you were present when Mr Ngoso Dludla - please leave your microphone until I finish the question, when I finish the question and it has been interpreted to you then you can put your microphone on because every time you press your button it cuts me off. Going back to Mr Dludla. You say you were present when he was killed. MR MYEZA Yes, I was present when Ngoso Dludla was killed. MR BRINK You see again in your affidavit, that is the affidavit in support of your application for amnesty, you indicated that "I left on a Thursday afternoon for Newcastle before our plot, the plot to kill Mr Dludla was carried out. On my return on Sunday I was informed by those who were present that Ngoso Dludla was shot dead by Togozani Ntuli, Thandazani Linda and Pazman." CHAIRPERSON Where are you reading from? MR BRINK Page 25, middle paragraph. MR MYEZA No, the person who took down the statement made a mistake. MR BRINK Was the statement read back to you? MR MYEZA No. MR BRINK Who do you say killed Dludla? MR MYEZA The person who shot Ngoso Dludla is Muhle Mthethwa. MR BRINK Now finally, had you not been offered some sort of promise of employment by Mr Nyawuza, would you have embarked upon these various acts of murder or been party to them? MR MYEZA There would be no other reason for me to kill people. MR BRINK No, no I am not asking about instructions. My question was in the light of your evidence that Nyahusa had promised you should you require it, employment, would you have carried out these killings had he not made such an offer to you? MR MYEZA I would not have killed. MR BRINK So was your motivation in carrying out these killings and being party to them, your motivation's one of a possible gain by permanent employment which you haven't had before that? MR MYEZA Yes, that is what I say. MR BRINK Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK MR MALAN May I just follow up on that. I want to be as fair as possible to you Mr Myeza. For one I am not sure that you really fully understand the process and why you are here. You can only get amnesty if you tell the truth. You can only get amnesty for crimes that you committed. This is not a court that will find you guilty or not guilty, we have to find out whether we are satisfied that you are telling us everything that happened, inclusive of all your guilt, all your participation. Now frankly the difficulty is that we have different versions in your amnesty application, in your additional statement that you say you gave to the investigators and in your evidence today and you are simply saying to us that it wasn't your handwriting, you didn't say it, it wasn't read back to you but my question is, and I am coming back to the issue of Mr Dludla's death, you say expressly to whoever took this statement "I left on the Thursday afternoon for Newcastle before our plot was carried out. On my return on a Sunday I was informed that Dludla was shot dead." Now where would the investigator get this information from if you did not tell him? MR MYEZA He is not telling the truth. I did not say that to the person who was taking my statement. MR MALAN Let me ask you just a very simple question, are you satisfied, because it is in your own interest, that you have told us everything and that you have been truthful because we have to make that finding before we can seriously consider granting you amnesty. Are you satisfied that you have been open, truthful and told us everything? Is there anything more you want to tell us or to set the record straight on? MR MYEZA About Ngoso Dludla, and this is what I told the people who were taking down my statement, is that many people knew that I would be going to Newcastle. I did not go because he was killed on Thursday night before Good Friday. I do not make a mistake about what I said in my statement. CHAIRPERSON Let's talk about Mr Nyawuza. He is the gentleman who is the driver of Mr Zulu. When did Mr Nyawuza make this promise to you that you would get employment in the KZN Police, what year? You might not remember the date, you might not remember the month but when was this? MR MYEZA I remember that it was in 1993. CHAIRPERSON Where were you when he made this statement? MR MYEZA We first went for training. It was in C section in Ulandi. CHAIRPERSON Were you alone when he made this promise to you? MR MYEZA I was with Xolani Ngema. CHAIRPERSON What were you expected to do in return? MR MYEZA He said before we became permanent force members, Inkatha should first win the election in KwaZulu Natal. CHAIRPERSON No, my question is what were you expected to do in return for this promise? MR MYEZA I was expected to kill ANC members, the people who were a trouble and were not in good relationship with him. CHAIRPERSON Have I understood you to say that had he not made this promise to you, you would not have done what you have done? MR MYEZA No, we could not have killed people. CHAIRPERSON Did you receive any gifts or presents from him for doing things for him? MR MYEZA There is nothing else except the government firearms that were given to us. CHAIRPERSON And who was supporting and maintaining you in the meanwhile, giving you food and clothing? MR MYEZA Mr Dlulane used to bring food and clothing for us. CHAIRPERSON Throughout the period 1993/1994? MR MYEZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON As far as money was concerned, did you receive any money from him? MR MYEZA He was not giving us money. We were getting money from Ulundi. CHAIRPERSON You used to fetch money from who? MR MYEZA We were being paid as SPU members. We received it from a certain person in Ulundi who was in charge of finances there. I cannot recall his name. CHAIRPERSON Was that every month or every week, how often was that? MR MYEZA After every two months. CHAIRPERSON What is SPU, what does it mean? INTERPRETER (Explanation of Self Protection Unit) MR MYEZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON So this was full time as far as you are concerned? MR MYEZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And as member of the SPU who did you take orders from? MR MYEZA We got some orders from Phillip Powell when we were still in training. CHAIRPERSON Would he come there to where you were and give instructions or were these instructions conveyed to you in some other way? MR MYEZA At Umfolozi where we received training, we had commanders who were working under him. We had commanders like "Somatekisi" and others that I cannot recall their surnames. CHAIRPERSON But that was only during the time that you have for training but you were only for training for a short period? MR MYEZA Yes, ...[indistinct] six months. CHAIRPERSON After the training was over who did you get instructions from? MR MYEZA The person who organised training for us was Mr Nyawuza. MR MALAN Can you just tell us this Mr Philip Powell, have you met him? MR MYEZA Yes. MR MALAN Where did you meet him? MR MYEZA At Umfolozi. MR MALAN Did you see him daily? MR MYEZA He came once in a fortnight for six months. He is the one who also brought us the certificates to show that we had passed our training. MR MALAN What was that training called, what were you told what were you being trained for? MR MYEZA We were trained to protect the IFP. MR MALAN Now just a question as to the structure of the SPU, after your training did you have to report to anyone? MR MYEZA We, as the region of Eshowe were reporting to Nyawuza after performing our duties, another person was Sipho Mbambo. MR MALAN Did you have meetings of the SPU in Eshowe? MR MYEZA There were no meetings that were held at Eshowe. We held our meetings in Empangeni, where all the SPU's would come together. MR MALAN Did you then have regular meetings there? MR MYEZA We used to have meetings there were some of us would be picked to join the army at Mtubatuba. MR MALAN Who was the head of the unit in that region, was it Nwyawza or was it Mr Mbambo? MR MYEZA The person who was very helpful and we regarded as our commander was Mr Mbambo, Sipho Mbambo. MR MALAN Was Mr Nyawuza also an SPU? MR MYEZA No he was just a driver and the bodyguard of uMntwana Gideon. MR MALAN Why did you have to report on SPU matters to Nuyawuza? MR MYEZA The reason why we reported to him is because he is the one who facilitated that we had a contact with this white man who was in charge of the SPU's MR MALAN Thank you. ADV MOTATA Mr Myeza before you were trained were you an IFP member in the in the district of Eshowe? MR MYEZA I was a card-carrying member of the IFP. ADV MOTATA Did you believe in the IFP policies because I understand you to say to us that the card was taken out on your behalf, am I right in so understanding you? MR MYEZA I believed in the policies of the IFP because my family was also IFP members. ADV MOTATA Had there not been promises of a police job, would you have gone for the training? MR MYEZA I would not have gone for training. It would mean that I was not going to get a job after training. ADV MOTATA But you realise that after the training you were instead a facilitator in perpetrating crimes? MR MYEZA Yes, that is true. ADV MOTATA Did you ask at some stage before perpetrating these crimes: "When am I getting the job I have been trained for"? MR MYEZA I thought the job we were doing was the reason why we had been trained because we would go to Ulundi and get paid for what we did. ADV MOTATA You say you earned a salary for some time but it stopped, didn't your mind question if is this a permanent job or not? MR MYEZA I did not think of that because the reason why we could not get our money then, is because the person who was paying us was no longer at Ulundi. He had run away. When we went to Ulundi to protest about not getting our money, we found that this person had run away and there was a new person in his place. ADV MOTATA Now the people who trained you could you describe them to us who are they? We know that Philip Powell would from time to time show his face a day or after but did you know who trained you people? MR MYEZA The person who was training us at Umfolozi was Somatekisi Mthembu. That is how he was known. There were many other commanders, but I did not know their names, another one was Madlinyoka. What was happening there is that people were not giving their right names or surnames. ADV MOTATA For instance Mr Mthembu whom you knew to be owning a taxi, did you know his rank or what position he held in whatever organisation? MR MYEZA Let me correct this first. This man did not own taxis. This name "Somatekisi" was just his pseudonym and that is how we called him. ADV MOTATA Taxi man, now I understand you perfectly thank you very much. Was he a member of any organisation, IFP for instance and what rank did he have when he trained you people? MR MYEZA He was an IFP member. He was the commander there. ADV MOTATA I take it, correct me if I am mistaken, that you were trained in handling firearms, how to kill, would I be right to say you're saying so? MR MYEZA Yes, we were told that we were trained for 1994 election, to kill. ADV MOTATA Could you just tell us more that you were trained for the 1994 elections to do what, to show people how to vote or to kill people not to vote? MR MYEZA To kill the ANC leadership. ADV MOTATA Did you know which leaders were you supposed to kill from the ANC? MR MYEZA Yes, I know a few of them. ADV MOTATA Would you be kind enough to just give us the few you know? MR MYEZA The first one was Bongani Msomi in eSikhawini. ADV MOTATA Proceed. MR MYEZA The second one was Bheki Ntuli in Mtubatuba. ADV MOTATA Can you remember only the two? MR MYEZA Mr Nxumalo, here in Eshowe. Given Mthethwa from Eshowe, Schoolboy from Eshowe, Mr Msweli in Mandini. Those are the only people who were disturbing the election in KwaZulu Natal. ADV MOTATA I understood you to say to us that Eshowe was an IFP stronghold and I realised that for instance Nxmalo and Mthethwa are also from Eshowe. MR MYEZA That is true. ADV MOTATA Now lastly, you mentioned that when you attacked you were accompanied by the KwaZulu Police ...(indistinct)? MR MYEZA Yes. ADV MOTATA And prior to your attack you held a meeting, do you recall that? MR MYEZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Were the KwaZulu Police present in that meeting or if not when did they join you or how did they know that you planned this attack? MR MYEZA The KwaZulu Police would not be present when the decision is taken, but they would be told to go and raid the ANC members after we had taken a decision. The KwaZulu Police would then be led be Nr Nyawuza where they were supposed to raid. ADV MOTATA Would we understand you correctly that the police, that is the KwaZulu Police, were your allies when you attacked the ANC members, would we understand you to say that? MR MYEZA Yes. ADV MOTATA Thank you very much Mr Myeza, I have got no further questions. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Well will take the short adjournment now. Mr Brink can we resume at two o'clock? MR BRINK Yes. CHAIRPERSON We adjourn now and resume at two o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) put to this witness? MR BRINK No thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ALBERTS Just one aspect thank you. Before you decided to join the SPU training were you already an IFP member by then? MR MYEZA Yes. MR ALBERTS And when you decided ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I didn't hear him, sorry. What is the answer? INTERPRETER ...(inaudible) MR ALBERTS And when you decided to join the SPU training what was your purpose for joining? MR MYEZA The reason why I joined the SPU is because I had already been told by Mr Nyawuza that for us to protect the IFP, we had to be trained so that we could carry firearms legally. MR ALBERTS And these acts that you did commit, apart from thinking that you would get employment, is there any other reason that prompted you or that made you to do this? MR MYEZA No, there were no other reasons. MR ALBERTS Thank you Mr Chairman I have got nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ALBERTS ADV MOTATA Mr Myeza you were paid by this financial officer, did I hear you correctly? MR MYEZA Yes. ADV MOTATA Where was he from, where did he belong to, IFP, SPU? From where was this official who was paying you? MR MYEZA I do not know whether this person was a member of the IFP or the SPU's. He was employed in Parliament at Ulundi. I do not know what his position was. ADV MOTATA In other words you were paid by Ulundi, he was placed at Ulundi? MR MYEZA Yes, I thought we were paid by the KwaZulu Government. ADV MOTATA Thank you Chairperson I have got no further questions. Thank you Mr Myeza. MR MALAN Just one question on the same subject, did you not regard that as employment? MR MYEZA I had an SPU card but I did not regard myself as someone who was permanently employed as a public servant. MR MALAN What was your monthly salary there? MR MYEZA I was paid about R2 800. MR MALAN If you were not employed what did you think this R2 800 was for? MR MYEZA I thought this is the money that was paid to us because we were trained and we had carried the functions we were trained for. MR MALAN Mr Myeza what is employment, is employment not that you are expected to carry out some function? MR MYEZA I was promised that I was going to be employed as a KwaZulu Police officer. This did not happen, instead I was a mere SPU member. MR MALAN Were you employed as a ZP officer? MR MYEZA I think I was being used by them to do their job. MR MALAN What was your employment for and what did they pay you that salary for? Sorry what did you understand they were thinking, the government was thinking when the government was paying you? MR MYEZA There were slips to show how much we got whenever we went to Ulundi. MR MALAN Did you get a monthly slip with your salary? MR MYEZA No. CHAIRPERSON Did you tell us that - sorry, carry on. MR MALAN Just one question, was any tax deducted? Did they show deductions on your slips? MR MYEZA That is true. CHAIRPERSON I thought I heard you say during your evidence that this money that you were getting from Ulundi stopped when a middle man disappeared or left. Can you clear that up first of all? Who was the middle man and what do you mean by he disappeared or he left, what does that mean? MR MYEZA I did not know the name of this middleman. However, when all KwaZulu-Natal SPU members were called to Ulundi to get their monies, that was Friday, we went to camp at Emandleni. The following Saturday, we went to the soccer field in E section in Ulundi, and we were told that this person had run away. We barricaded the Parliament in protest of our salaries and demanded to talk to Mr Powell himself. He came and told us that that person had run away. He left Ulundi. I did not know his name. ADV MOTATA Mr Myeza was this man, the middle man white or black? MR MYEZA He was black. MR MALAN Mr Myeza, when were you arrested? MR MYEZA I was arrested in 1995. These people no longer wanted to see me. MR MALAN But in 1995 you were still paid when you were carrying out some of these orders as you told us in your evidence? MR MYEZA It was in 1995 when the payments stopped. I was then arrested when I came back from Ulundi. MR MALAN Was it not because you were arrested that you couldn't go and collect your money? MR MYEZA I cannot say, but we had a stay-away the last time I went to Ulundi. CHAIRPERSON So it wasn't just your money, all the others who were with you also didn't get their money? MR MYEZA Yes. All of us did not get our money. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much. You are excused. You can move off from there. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Are you thinking of calling any other witness? MR ALBERTS No. CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink? MR BRINK I am not calling witnesses Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Is there anything you wish to say to us in argument? MR ALBERTS IN ARGUMENT Firstly the one incident where the evidence was that it happened in 1995. In the statement given by the applicant he mentioned before the election 1994. I would ask the Commission not to make a finding on that, whether it fell within or without the cut-off date before all the information was gathered by Mr Brink. There were some inconsistencies in his evidence especially where dates and times etc., was not, could not be remembered but it is my submission it happened some time ago, at least four years, five years ago and it is a number of incidents and where he could not remember or he could not give exact details or where it seems he might have contradicted himself it might well have been as a result of the long time period and the number of incidents in which he was in fact involved, that some of the details got confused. It is my submission that the actions that he did perpetrate was according to his evidence for political motives. He was instructed by this Nyawuza to commit certain acts on behalf of Nyawuza for Nyawuza's political gain and then to assist the IFP in winning the elections. Also the evidence he gave later on regarding the SPU's etc, he had a bona fide belief that what was done was for the political gain of the IFP. It is my submission he did tell the truth, although sometimes he was not all that really clear as I have already stated. He might well not remember everything as clearly because he is not a well-educated man it seems from the fact that he is not able to read English, his thumb print was annexed to his affidavit, etc. Therefore I have requested the Commission to make a finding that he was truthful in what he did say to the Commission. The one aspect that might cause a problem is Section 23 (f) 1. It is my submission that he was a member of the IFP even before he joined the SPU. He did say that the only reason for his actions was to get employment and for the money. I don't know whether one can take this into Section 22(b) or (c), I'm sorry, (c) or (d) as being employed to do this. I will leave that in the hands of ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR ALBERTS No, Section 23(f) deals with a personal gain. Section 22(c) and (d) deals with a person that is employed by somebody committing certain acts on behalf of that party or government. We do not know where the funding came from. I will leave that aspect in the hands of the Commission. It is my submission that his amnesty should be considered. Is there anything else that the Commission would like to hear me on? CHAIRPERSON It is quite clear that it can't be said that he acted on behalf of the KZN government? MR ALBERTS Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And nor can it be said that he was acting on the instructions of the Inkatha Freedom Party? MR ALBERTS Yes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON So he was carrying out the wishes of a man called Nyawuza? MR ALBERTS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Brink? MR BRINK IN ARGUMENT Very briefly Mr Chairman, as far as the application relating to Ntuli is concerned and that is the one where in his sworn statement he indicated that that took place before the elections of 1994. He made it quite clear that this murder was committed after he had been released from prison in July 1994 which clearly puts it beyond the cut-off date. While it is perfectly true that the man's memory was to some extent unreliable, likewise his sworn affidavit was unreliable so you can't place any value on what he said in that statement relating to when Ntuli's murder took place. The second point I wish to make is that he clearly was, as Mr Chairman has pointed out, not acting on behalf of the IFP as a political party or indeed on behalf of the KwaZulu government at that time. It appears that he comes close to the personal gain matter which is referred to in Section 20 subsection (1). (a) I: Personal gain. His evidence was that he would not have committed any of these offences had he not been made an offer of employment and of gainful employment that is. My submission Mr Chairman, that can well be interpreted as having done these things for personal gain, promise of a job in the then KwaZulu Police. Those are my submissions. MR MALAN Mr Alberts, this question really is to Mr Brink too, on the evidence he was indeed employed, he was paid at Ulundi at the government offices on a monthly basis, quite a sizeable salary of R2 800 a month. Why should that not be construed as employment by the government? MR BRINK Well it may have been some kind of slush fund payment Mr Chairman. There is no evidence that this was KwaZulu government money. He said he didn't pay tax or tax wasn't deducted. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) secret fund. Yes, thank you very much. The Committee will wait until we get clarity in respect of the attitude of the victims of those who were involved in the applications he made which are not referred to in his application form but which are referred to in his affidavit. I trust in that counsel will sort out this among themselves before the necessary document is placed before us. It might be in the form of an affidavit or affidavits from clients. You will show them to counsel ...(indistinct) MR BRINK Yes. Mr Chairman when I return to Cape Town I will give immediate instructions for investigations to be done in regard to tracing the next-of-kin victims and the like in respect of all those matters but the one reservation I have, if the Ntuli matter is excluded then it would be pointless. CHAIRPERSON Well I can understand that. Yes I mean if it falls outside the cut-off date then the Committee has no discretion. MR BRINK Ja. I don't know whether the Committee is in a position to make a ruling on that aspect of his application at this stage. CHAIRPERSON No, we don't make any rulings at this stage you know, but you know that on the evidence as it stands this was after the cut off date? MR BRINK Yes. CHAIRPERSON That is the end of the matter isn't it? MR BRINK Yes. CHAIRPERSON But without making a final ruling on the matter it seems that that seems to be the position. MR BRINK Yes. CHAIRPERSON Very well, the Committee will reserve its decision and give it after it has received such information as might be thought appropriate by counsel in this matter. MR BRINK Mr Chairman, may we then adjourn for a matter of two minutes so the representatives can be reconstituted and the new applicants brought in in the next matter? CHAIRPERSON Yes. We will step down for a few minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS .