amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-03-26 DURBAN MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54703&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/durban/myeza.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] matter of Mr Absalom, Mr Dladla is it, and Mr Ndlovu. Mr Alberts, you are appearing for both of these applicants? MR ALBERTS That is correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And Mr Brink, you are leader of evidence? MR BRINK Yes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Are we ready to commence? MR BRINK Yes we are. I think Mr Wills is here to represent various next-of-kin. CHAIRPERSON Do you have a name of the list of the people that you represent? MR WILLS I do Mr Chairperson. If you could just bear with me? I represent the following people: Welcome Themba Ngoso Mkhize, David Lembeti, Nbongeni Nxobo, Theresa Theni Nxabi, Elbertina Bongikile Chezi, Makwapeli Dlamini, Pindile Zuma, Mita Mkhize, Janet Ndlovu, Florena Dlamini, Sibongili Trivina Ndlovu, Queen Khanyezi, Sipho Ernest Khoneni and Ntongkozizi Xulu, Titus ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON How do you spell that surname? Xulu? MR WILLS X-U-L-U Mr Chairman. Titus Dlamini, A S Dlamini and Dumisani Johannes Sithole. CHAIRPERSON These are people who are either parents of those that died or their next-of-kin or those who have suffered injuries themselves? MR WILLS That is correct in every instance Mr Chairperson. MR ALBERTS I then call the applicant Mr Dladla, the first applicant. MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON What are your full names? MR DLADLA Mabhungu Absalom Dladla. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. EXAMINATION BY MR ALBERTS You are currently serving a life sentence for a murder of ten people and attempted murder of two others on the 5th of March 1993, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON Was it the sentence or the commission of the offence? MR ALBERTS The offence was committed the 5th of March 1993. Mr Dladla you must please speak up, it is difficult to hear you. MR DLADLA I do not understand what you mean by life sentence. No, I was sentenced to death, not a life sentence. MR ALBERTS Where did you grow up? MR DLADLA I grew up in Camperdown. In Table Mountain. MR ALBERTS And where is that? MR DLADLA Near Pietermaritzburg. MR ALBERTS That is near Pietermaritzburg? MR DLADLA Ja. MR ALBERTS Did you grow up in a western community or were you brought up in a more traditional Zulu way? MR DLADLA It is traditional. MR ALBERTS Did you comply with the Zulu tradition, for example slaughtering animals? MR DLADLA Yes. MR ALBERTS And you were also a member of the IFP, is that correct? MR DLADLA Yes. MR ALBERTS How did you come to join the IFP? MR DLADLA My parents were IFP members and I started liking it because my parents were supporters of it. I became one of its members and I got a membership card. MR ALBERTS Did you have any specific authority in the IFP for example a chairman of something? MR DLADLA No, I was just an ordinary member. MR ALBERTS The incident that took place on the 5th of March 1993 for which you are applying for amnesty, how did it come about that you decided to commit this offence? MR DLADLA On 2 March 1993, the IFP children on their way to school, in a van, were murdered. This happened in Maqongqo. MR ALBERTS Do you know by whom? MR DLADLA Yes, I know one person who was mentioned by the survivors. He is Qeda Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Spell the first name of that man, Nxteta Zulu? INTERPRETER Qeda Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR ALBERTS And when you decided to commit this act was there somebody else with you? Did you discuss this matter? MR DLADLA Yes, there were other people. MR ALBERTS Who was with you? MR DLADLA Nkanyiso Wilfred Ndlovu and Makhekhe chistopher Zondi. MR ALBERTS Mr Ndlovu is the second applicant here with you today, who was also convicted with you? MR DLADLA Yes. MR ALBERTS Where did this meeting take place? CHAIRPERSON Let's just before you go to that. You see Mr Alberts he's talked about school children being killed. You haven't asked him where, what time, when, shouldn't that be cleared up? MR ALBERTS Yes. The school children who were killed do you remember their names? MR DLADLA Yes, I remember their names. I knew Wa Khumalo, a certain Mkhize, a Gwala girl. please give me a chance to remember some of them. CHAIRPERSON In the meanwhile can you tell us where were these children killed? MR DLADLA They were killed in Table Mountain area, at Mboyi. MR ALBERTS Do you know how this incident took place? What happened during this incident when the children were killed? MR DLADLA No. I was not there. I was at home and heard gun shots. i then got into the army car that was proceeding there, where the kids were injured. When we arrived there ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON He wasn't there. MR DLADLA I was there when they were killed. CHAIRPERSON What did you see there? MR DLADLA I found the kids there. Some of them were already dead and some were injured but could still talk. MR ALBERTS And this person that the people told you was involved, who was he? MR DLADLA He was Qeda Zulu. He was also a resident of Camperdown. My neighbour. Thereafter, he fled the area and went to stay in Nkanyezini. MR ALBERTS Yes who is he? Why would he have been involved in the killing of these children? MR DLADLA ...[no English translation] CHAIRPERSON Had they tell you what had happened? MR DLADLA I asked the children what had happened and they said they had been shot. They said Qeda was amongst those people who shot them. MR ALBERTS Why would this Mr Zulu have been involved in the attack on the children? MR DLADLA He is an ANC member. The parents of the children who were attacked were IFP members. Perhaps Qeda hated their parents and that is why he attacked these children. CHAIRPERSON They say it could be, is that what you are saying? MR DLADLA I think he killed them because they were staying in the IFP area and their parents were IFP supporters. MR ALBERTS What was the situation in the Tableview area at that time, was it peaceful? MR DLADLA There was violence. MR ALBERTS What resulted in the violence? What was the reason for the violence? CHAIRPERSON What was the cause? MR ALBERTS The cause for the violence? MR DLADLA It was between the IFP and the ANC supporters. MR ALBERTS Can you tell us what caused the violence between the IFP and the ANC? What caused them to fight against each other? MR DLADLA The ANC supporters were attacking us. MR ALBERTS Okay, after the incident of the children being killed you had a meeting with the other two people you mentioned, what was decided or discussed at that meeting? MR DLADLA After the attack on the children, I talked to Makhekhe and told him that we had to avenge this. I thought a revenge was necessary this was not the first time that the ANC supporters had attacked us. MR ALBERTS Where was this discussion held? MR DLADLA We were near Mkhize's house where the children were killed. I was there to offer support as a youngster, because the adults were mourning. Sepiwe was also there. I then discussed with him that we had to avenge, and he agreed. MR ALBERTS What did you then decide to do? MR DLADLA We discussed that our target should be Nofu's kombi that was driven by Qeda Zuma. We chose this kombi because it is the one that was used by ANC supporters to attack IFP supporters. MR ALBERTS Was it only you and Makhekhe at that time? MR DLADLA Yes. MR ALBERTS Okay what did you do to implement your plan? MR DLADLA We decided to approach Nkanyiso who had a better knowledge about the movements of this kombi. We then went to Nkanyiso CHAIRPERSON Just give us the name of the person so that we can write it down properly. Who did you go and discuss this with, who did you go and talk to? MR DLADLA Nkanyiso. CHAIRPERSON Can you spell that name? MR DLADLA N-K-A-N-Y-I-S-O. CHAIRPERSON Yes how do you spell that name? INTERPRETER N-K-A-N-Y-I-S-O. CHAIRPERSON And his surname? MR MALAN The second applicant. CHAIRPERSON Oh I am sorry the second applicant. Yes carry on. MR ALBERTS Is that the second applicant in this application? MR DLADLA That is true. MR ALBERTS What happened when you met up with Mr Ndlovu? MR DLADLA We got into Makhekhe's car and proceeded to Nkanyezini to look for Nkanyiso. We found him at Ngidi's stored and took him with us. On our way, we told him about our plans. MR ALBERTS Yes? MR DLADLA We asked him to explain to us the movements of this kombi. He did that. MR ALBERTS Yes? MR DLADLA We then influenced him to be with us when we attacked that kombi. MR ALBERTS Where did you go to then? MR DLADLA We then went to Makhekhe's house because all our discussions happened in the car. MR ALBERTS Yes and at Makhekhe's house what happened? MR DLADLA We waited at Makhekhe's house, thereafter Makhekhe took out three firearms, an AK 47, a shotgun and R1 rifle. He gave an AK 47 to Nkanyiso, an R1 rifle to me and carried a shotgun. MR ALBERTS When was this? MR DLADLA He took out three firearms. MR ALBERTS What kind of weapons was that? MR DLADLA It was an AK 47, a shotgun and an R1 rifle. MR ALBERTS What did you do with the three weapons? MR DLADLA To kill. MR ALBERTS What weapon did you take? MR DLADLA I had a rifle. MR ALBERTS And the second applicant? MR DLADLA He had an AK 47. MR ALBERTS And Makhekhe the shotgun. Okay what did you then do? MR DLADLA Thereafter he sprinkled us with muti. MR ALBERTS Yes? MR DLADLA We then planned where we were going to attack that kombi. MR ALBERTS Did you then go to that place? MR DLADLA We decided that it should be on a deserted road coming from town. CHAIRPERSON Which town? MR DLADLA Pietermaritzburg. MR ALBERTS Did you then go to that place? MR DLADLA Yes, we went there. MR ALBERTS And when you got there what did you do? MR DLADLA We slept there because we arrived during the night. MR ALBERTS Yes? MR DLADLA We waited since 4 o clock in the morning for the kombi to drive past there ...[intervention] MR ALBERTS Yes, and what happened on the following morning? MR DLADLA Yes. We went for this kombi driven by Qeda. MR ALBERTS Why were you waiting, were you waiting for a specific kombi? MR DLADLA Yes. MR ALBERTS Okay and did the kombi eventually arrive? MR DLADLA Late in the afternoon, this kombi came. When we saw it approaching, we started shooting. MR ALBERTS How far were you from the kombi when you started shooting? MR DLADLA We were as far from here to the wall there. MR ALBERTS Approximately 10 to 15 metres. MR WILLS With respect Mr Chairperson, I estimate that distance to be 8 metres. MR DLADLA I agree. MR WILLS As the Committee pleases. MR ALBERTS Tell us in detail what happened from the time you started shooting at this vehicle? MR DLADLA When we saw it approaching and was not far from us, we started shooting. MR ALBERTS How many shots were fired? How many shots did you fire? MR DLADLA I fired until the magazine was empty. MR ALBERTS Do you know how many rounds an R1 magazine can take? MR DLADLA There were twenty rounds of ammunition. MR ALBERTS And after the magazine was empty did you reload? MR DLADLA No, I did not. I had two magazines. MR ALBERTS Did you use both magazines? MR DLADLA Yes, I used both but did not finish the second magazine. MR ALBERTS Do you know how many shots the second applicant and the third person fired? MR MALAN Could we just come back to the second. MR DLADLA I did not count. MR MALAN You say the second casket wasn't finished, how many bullets did you use from that one? MR DLADLA I did not see how many were left. CHAIRPERSON Yes carry on. MR ALBERTS Did you move ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think his answer was he didn't know how many bullets his companions fired. MR ALBERTS Was there a lot of shooting? MR DLADLA It was a long time when we started shooting at it. We were still shooting at it when it drove past us until it stopped. MR ALBERTS And did you shoot at, during all of this time? MR DLADLA Yes. MR ALBERTS And after the kombi stopped? MR DLADLA After it stopped, we approached it and were still shooting. MR ALBERTS Yes? MR DLADLA When we approached it we realised that our victims were not the people we were looking for. The kombi was not carrying the ANC supporters but the members of the public. We also saw that there were females in the kombi, but we went on shooting. Although we had seen that these commuters were women, we went on shooting because they were staying in the ANC area. We wanted the ANC to feel what we felt. MR ALBERTS And eventually when the shooting did stop what did you do? MR DLADLA After we shot at them, some of them were already injured. MR ALBERTS Yes, and where did you go to then? MR DLADLA We stopped shooting and went into the bushes. MR ALBERTS Yes and then? MR DLADLA We waited until it became dark. MR ALBERTS Yes, where did you go to? MR DLADLA We then went to Nkanyiso's house. MR ALBERTS Was that at the end of this incident? MR DLADLA We gave Nkanyiso the firearms to hide them for us. MR ALBERTS And did you then disperse? MR DLADLA Yes, we dispersed. MR ALBERTS What did you hope to achieve by attacking this kombi? MR DLADLA There are IFP supporters in Mboyi. Our shortest route to go to town passed Nkanyezini. We could no longer, however, use this short route to town because they were shooting at us. I was once shot at too. We could no longer go past there. CHAIRPERSON What is the name of that place? What area that you had to go through? MR DLADLA Nkanyezini. MR ALBERTS Yes, can you explain to us what you hoped to achieve by attacking this kombi? MR DLADLA Nkanyezini is an ANC stronghold and we people from Mboyi could no longer walk past there. We could no longer go to town to buy. We were imprisoned in our area. Our people would be free to walk after this. MR ALBERTS What do you mean by saying that the route, the town was blocked? MR DLADLA Our aim was to avenge. Secondly, we could no longer walk past Nkanyezini. MR ALBERTS My question is how come that you could not pass through that area any more? MR DLADLA They were shooting at us. I was also shot in January 1993. We were blocked from walking there. MR ALBERTS How would the attack on this vehicle help you to move through this area again? MR DLADLA Our intention was to kill the people who were attacking the IFP supporters. This kombi was being used to ferry these people. It never carried members of the public, as far as we knew. We did not intend to injure the people who were in the kombi at that time. MR ALBERTS Yes, my question is how would the killing of ANC members assist you in being able to go into that area again? MR DLADLA These people in Nkanyezini were attacking us. This would have opened the way for us, IFP supporters, to walk past there. MR ALBERTS Yes, but in what way would it help you to kill ANC members to achieve your purpose of being able to use the area? MR MALAN Could I put it the other way around? After you had completed this attack was the route opened to you again, could you move through Nkanyezini? MR DLADLA That has since stopped because people from both areas can now visit each other. MR MALAN Did the shooting take place in that area where you were shot at? MR DLADLA It is in the area. MR ALBERTS How do you feel about the fact that 10 people died and others were seriously injured as a result of your actions? MR DLADLA I feel very bad. What I did was wrong and makes me feel bad. That is why I decided to appear before the Commission, to ask for the relatives of those people to forgive me. MR ALBERTS Did you personally gain anything? Did you get money or any gifts for what you did? MR DLADLA No, I did not gain anything. MR ALBERTS Is there anything you would like to say to the family members of the victims and the survivors of this attack? MR DLADLA Yes. I sympathise with then for what happened. I ask then to forgive me because what I did was wrong. MR ALBERTS Thank you Mr Chairman no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ALBERTS MR DLADLA Sorry, I have not said everything that I wanted to say. Can I proceed? When I was arrested, I did not say anything about Sepiwe. I protected him. To the police, I mentioned the name Sifiso Mkhize, and said he was with me. I mentioned Sifiso Mkhize because he is the first person I approached when I wanted to attack the kombi. When I told him that, He refused to be part of us. I mentioned him because this happened on Friday and we were arrested on Saturday. I then suspected him giving that information to the police. That is all what I wanted to clarify. I did not mention Makhekhe's name. MR DLADLA Sorry. CHAIRPERSON Who is this Sepiwe Mkhize? MR DLADLA Sifiso. CHAIRPERSON Sifiso? MR DLADLA Yes, Sifiso. CHAIRPERSON In the shooting did Zondi take a part as well? MR DLADLA Yes, he was present. CHAIRPERSON And he was not charged with you in the criminal trial? MR DLADLA He was not charged because I did not mention his name. CHAIRPERSON Did you give the police the name of Ndlovu as being the person who was with you? MR DLADLA Yes. I told the police. CHAIRPERSON Mr Wills? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS I am just testing my mike, the light isn't on. Is it working? Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Dladla did I understand you correctly when you indicated that you fired certain shots at the kombi, when it stopped you moved up closer, you continued firing and you then noticed that the people weren't the ANC members that you expected, i.e. the victim and then after that you carried on firing at them. MR DLADLA These people come from the ANC area, although they were not the people we sought. MR WILLS Is it on now? You don't seem to understand my question. I am concerned about what I infer your evidence suggests and that is when you saw the people in the kombi were not the targets that you intended to shoot at you still carried on shooting after that realisation. That is my question? MR DLADLA Yes. MR WILLS Why did you do this? MR DLADLA We were shooting them because they were staying in the ANC area. CHAIRPERSON Even though they may be people who were not interested in politics, who may not have been members of the ANC ...[intervention]? MR DLADLA I cannot dispute if they say they were not members of the ANC. However, they were staying in the ANC area and we attacked them in that area. We went on shooting because we wanted the ANC to feel that. MR WILLS It seems from your evidence that you must agree with the finding of the trial court in this matter. I quote from page 44 of the record Mr Chairperson. "He and his companions had absolutely no reason to think or suspect or believe that any of the passengers in this minibus had anything to do with the killing and they clearly did not have any such belief or suspicion." Is that correct? MR DLADLA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Give the gist of it? MR WILLS I will do Mr Chairperson, thank you. Basically the Court found that you realised that the people in the minibus had absolutely nothing to do with the killing of the children, is that correct? MR DLADLA That kombi was not used to carry ordinary members of the public, it was used by our attackers. Those were the people we intended to kill when we attacked this kombi. MR WILLS In fact it is true that you didn't know who was in that minibus whatsoever did you? MR DLADLA No, I dispute that. That kombi is used to carry ANC members. That is why we targeted it. CHAIRPERSON Now it didn't carry only ANC, it would carry anybody else too wouldn't it? MR DLADLA I do not know whether there were ANC or IFP members. What I say is that we knew this kombi as carrying ANC members. I agree that these people we killed had nothing to do with death of school children. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson. I put it to you that none of the victims, those people who were either killed or the people who were injured had anything whatsoever to do with the ANC. Can you respond? MR DLADLA As I have already explained, this kombi is not known to carry members of the public, it carries ANC members who were killing IFP members. MR WILLS Why did you not investigate more thoroughly or plan your operation more thoroughly to ensure that the people who you killed and injured were the people who you intended to kill and injure? MR DLADLA I could not. MR WILLS Just for the record I am going to put my instructions to you and that is that the injured people, the driver of the bus was an individual by the name of Welcome Thembankosi Mkhize. He was the driver. He was non-partisan. David Lembeti or sorry, the deceased Bongili Berta Limbeti was not a member of any political organisation. The deceased Bekiziwe Nxabi was a member of the IFP. And in fact he was even buried by the IFP after this incident. Do you dispute any of that? MR DLADLA I cannot dispute it. MR WILLS Do you dispute the fact that Muta Mkhize, his mother Zinzingi Zimu were members of an IFP family, both victims? MR DLADLA I cannot dispute it because I do not know them. MR WILLS Do you deny the fact that Bongani Zephaniah Ndlovu was an IFP member from an IFP family? MR DLADLA As I explained before, the people in the kombi were not the people we intended. I therefore cannot dispute that there were IFP members in that kombi too. What I say is that I knew the kombi to carry ANC supporters and those were the people we intended. MR WILLS What I am putting to you Mr Dladla is the fact of the matter is that a number, more than half of those persons who died ...[intervention] MR DLADLA Mboyi is an IFP stronghold. In Nkanyezini, there are ANC supporters, that is why they went to attack school children there. People in the area were very afraid, as I explained. I was also shot at in Nkanyezini. This was going to help us, therefore, not to be attacked by the ANC people. CHAIRPERSON Can I just ask you a few questions please? I want you to listen very carefully. There were three of you. You were armed? MR DLADLA Yes. CHAIRPERSON You could have stopped that vehicle by firing a warning shot. Is that not so? MR DLADLA We could not do that because the people using that taxi were always armed. CHAIRPERSON You could have fired a warning shot, the three of you to try to stop ...[indistinct] MR DLADLA Our intention was to shoot the people using that kombi. We did not intend stopping it. We were going to kill that people. CHAIRPERSON You are now applying for amnesty for having killed some IFP people is that it? MR DLADLA No. I ask amnesty for killing people I did not intend to. It has been explained to me that those were not the ANC supporters, the people we intended to kill. CHAIRPERSON I put it to you that you were totally reckless because you said in your evidence that even when you saw they were women and you did not intend to kill women you nevertheless proceeded to do so. How can that conduct be explained? MR DLADLA Where we attacked this kombi was in an ANC area. People staying there belong to the ANC. CHAIRPERSON This kombi picks up passengers all along the road from all areas. MR DLADLA That kombi is used by ANC people. Those were the people we wanted. The driver of that kombi is Qeda, who was involved in killing school children. CHAIRPERSON Let's come back to the question. When you discovered that there were women in the bus, you had no intention of killing women but you changed your mind and you decided to kill them. Why? MR DLADLA We did this so that the ANC can feel the pain. Like we did. CHAIRPERSON So you didn't think about the pain of innocent passengers? MR DLADLA I felt the pain later, not at that time. CHAIRPERSON Are there any other questions you wish to put to this witness? MR WILLS There are a number. CHAIRPERSON Yes please put them. MR WILLS Thank you. Do you realise Mr Dladla that one of the conditions of getting amnesty is that you have to fully disclose all the material facts concerning the incident? MR DLADLA Yes. MR WILLS Where did you get your guns from? MR DLADLA We got them from Makhekhe. MR WILLS Where did Makhekhe get the guns from? MR DLADLA I do not know. They were in one of his huts. He fetched them and gave them to us. MR WILLS Have you had any military training in use of firearms? MR DLADLA No. I was never trained. MR WILLS Can you tell me then how you were able to use the firearms on the day in question? CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) That is not relevant. The fact of the matter is he did and killed people, whether he knew or not how to use it. MR WILLS Yes, with respect Mr Chairperson, the instructions I have as regard to the issue of full disclosure is that there is in fact a deeper political connection between the supply of weapons and training and linking this individual up. But if the Committee doesn't want me to pursue that avenue I am perfectly happy to leave. CHAIRPERSON Yes I mean leave it. He has taken part in the shooting, he tells you he gets a firearm from Makhekhe, he doesn't know where Makhekhe got the guns from. Unless you are in a position to contradict him, unless you have information to show that he is concealing that fact that he got it from somewhere else, (...indistinct) that is the kind of information then you must put it to him. MR WILLS Yes as you please Mr Chairperson. Mr Dladla I put it to you that you were in fact a trained IFP operative in that area and this in fact isn't the first incident you are involved in. MR DLADLA I was never trained. MR WILLS Do you know a gentleman by the name of Mr Phillip Powell? MR DLADLA Yes. I know Phillip Powell. MR WILLS How do you know him? MR DLADLA I know him as one of the IFP members. MR WILLS But how do you know him as a member of IFP? CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR WILLS Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR WILLS Yes. Have you had any personal dealings with Mr Powell? MR DLADLA No, I never met him. MR WILLS Is it true that the second applicant in this matter was in fact a chairperson of the IFP youth in that area? MR DLADLA Which Ndlovu? I know him as just a member, not that he had any position. MR WILLS Were you yourself an active IFP member in the area? MR DLADLA I was just a member. I did not hold any position. MR WILLS Were you at all involved in any of the political violence you referred to in the area as occurring in the area around the time of the incident? MR DLADLA No, I was never involved. MR WILLS When you refer to the violence in the area can you tell the Committee what violence the IFP got involved in, in that area around the time of this incident? MR DLADLA The IFP was being attacked by the ANC members. CHAIRPERSON I think the question really tried to elicit an answer did the IFP members ever attack the ANC members? MR DLADLA No there was no attack by the IFP. If it happens, I did not know about it. MR WILLS If the Committee will just bear with me? I want to go back to the meeting that you had concerning the decision to attack this kombi. Am I correct in saying that you were the one who took the decision, or you were the one who motivated this action, decided on the attack? MR DLADLA Yes. I am the one. MR WILLS And then you got, was it two other cohorts to join you? MR DLADLA Yes. MR WILLS So in total there were three of you? MR DLADLA Yes, we were three. MR WILLS And the third person was Sepiwe Zondi? MR DLADLA Yes. MR WILLS Is Sepiwe Zondi still alive? MR DLADLA Sepiwe is deceased. MR WILLS Two of the persons who I represent and who were injured in the kombi on that day are reasonably sure that there were 5 people involved in attack on the kombi and they gave this information to the police. Can you comment on that? MR DLADLA We were three. MR WILLS You mentioned that you gave all the weapons to the second applicant after the incident, is that correct? MR DLADLA Yes. MR WILLS The police in the court indicated that when they came to your house to arrest you that you had indicated to them that you had given one of the weapons to a person by the name of Ntolo, and they actually attended with you to Ntolo's hut and they got that weapon from there. Do you recall that? MR DLADLA I remember that. The firearm I gave to Mtolo was mine. It was an AK 47 I picked up. I then asked Mtolo to keep it for me because he had a licence. I could not keep it. I told the police about this and Mtolo gave the firearm to them. MR WILLS Was this weapon used in the attack? MR DLADLA No. MR WILLS Why did you have that weapon? MR DLADLA I picked it up. MR WILLS I didn't ask you how you came to be in possession of that weapon. I asked you why you possessed it? MR DLADLA I grew up in a rural area. I was looking after cattle when I found it hidden. MR WILLS If you had such an innocent past as you would have this Committee believe on your evidence, why did you not hand this weapon into the police, why did you bother keeping it? MR DLADLA I had been attacked by the ANC members several times. I kept it to defend myself. MR WILLS Did you ever use it for self-protection? MR DLADLA No. MR WILLS I put it to you that you are not being candid with the Committee as regards the way that you and the second applicant came into possession of the firearms. MR DLADLA I am telling the truth. The firearms were given to us by Makhekhe and we could not ask him where he got the firearms from. CHAIRPERSON Are you nearly finished? MR WILLS Yes, just very briefly thank you Mr Chair. Just one last aspect. Who did you say or who did you think the driver of this kombi was? MR DLADLA Qeda is the driver of that kombi. MR WILLS Does this Keta have any other name? MR DLADLA Yes, he is Jeremiah Zulu. MR WILLS Do you his surname, Jeremiah's surname? MR DLADLA Zulu. Qeda Jeremiah Zulu. MR WILLS Well I put it to you on objective evidence which is accepted by the Court, that the person actually driving the kombi that day, and that person is present in this room today, was an individual by the name of Welcome Themba Ngoso Mkhize, and further that he has never been known by any of the names you have mentioned today. MR DLADLA Yes. The kombi was not driven by Qeda on that day, it was driven by its owner. Qeda is the regular driver because the owner is employed somewhere. MR WILLS Are you saying that on the day of the incident, that this person Keta was not driving the kombi? Yes sorry I didn't - so you further saying that even though you realised that, you still attacked the kombi? MR DLADLA Yes, we continued. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Do you have questions that you wish to put to this witness? MR BRINK No, thank you Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ALBERTS Yes Mr Chairman, just a few aspects on the point that my learned friend has just touched on. At what stage during this attack did you realise that the people in the kombi are not the people that you expected to find in the kombi? MR DLADLA This a dusty road. There was dust when it approaches and drove past us. It was only after the dust had subsided that we realised that the people that we were shooting at were not the people we intended. MR ALBERTS Was it before or after the kombi stopped? MR DLADLA It was after it had stopped. MR ALBERTS As far as the information you had was concerned, was this kombi usually used as a taxi? MR DLADLA It is not used by the public. MR ALBERTS According to your information what was this kombi used as? MR DLADLA It was used by ANC supporters to attack IFP supporters. MR ALBERTS And who did you expect to find inside that vehicle? MR DLADLA We expected the people who were attackers of the IFP. MR ALBERTS Thank you Mr Chairman nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ALBERTS CHAIRPERSON Mr Wills, is Mr Welcome Mkhize here? MR WILLS He is indeed Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And is he available to give evidence? I would like a few questions to put to him. MR WILLS I am sure he wouldn't mind. I haven't broached him on the subject but he is here. CHAIRPERSON You are excused. Excuse me, yes you are excused you can go off please. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Mkhize, are you here? Mr Mkhize I am sorry, you did not know that you were going to give evidence but I personally would like to clear up one or two questions about this vehicle. Are you prepared to answer questions? WELCOME MKHIZE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Your name has been mentioned as the driver of this kombi on the day when it was attacked by the applicant and his companions. Were you in fact the driver? MR MKHIZE Yes, I was the driver on that day. CHAIRPERSON Who is the owner of this kombi? MR MKHIZE I am the owner. CHAIRPERSON Were you at that time when this incident occurred - were you at that time the owner? MR MKHIZE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now what was the purpose for which this kombi was used? MR MKHIZE It was a taxi. CHAIRPERSON You say it was a regular taxi used like other taxis? MR MKHIZE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And where did you operate from and to what destination? MR MKHIZE I was operating from Pietermaritzburg town to Nkanyezini area. CHAIRPERSON And how many trips a day did you make? MR MKHIZE It depended on how many passengers I got. CHAIRPERSON Would there be a time when it would make more than one trip a day? MR MKHIZE Yes, about four trips a day. CHAIRPERSON Would you pick up passengers along the way? MR MKHIZE Yes. CHAIRPERSON You heard the evidence of the last witness who says that you operated from an ANC area. MR MKHIZE It was not true that the areas were divided as IFP or ANC areas. CHAIRPERSON To your knowledge did your vehicle only convey ANC passengers? MR MKHIZE No. It was ferrying all passengers. CHAIRPERSON The man Mthethwa whose name has been mentioned here, was he your regular driver? MR MKHIZE That is a lie. Qeda never drove my car. I was always driving it whenever my driver was not there. CHAIRPERSON You know the man Mthethwa? MR MKHIZE Yes, I know him. CHAIRPERSON On the day of this incident were you one of those who were injured? MR MKHIZE By the grace of Jesus, I was not injured. CHAIRPERSON Mr Alberts are there any questions you wish to put to this person? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ALBERTS Yes, Mr Chairman. How do you know this person Mthethwa? MR MKHIZE I knew Qeda as one of the home boys, like and other boy in the area. When the violence started, I left and went to stay in town because I could afford. I left them in the area. CHAIRPERSON Just come forward and talk into the mike. MR BRINK Sit up straight. MR MKHIZE I cannot remember. I was already in the suburb when the violence started. MR ALBERTS Did you still work in this area? MR MKHIZE I ran a taxi business. MR ALBERTS When was it that you moved to the suburbs? MR MKHIZE Long ago, before many people started dying. MR ALBERTS And what type of, you said you had a job, what job did you do in the suburbs? MR MKHIZE I was a manager for Rainbow Chicken. MR ALBERTS So during the day time you could not operate your taxi? MR MKHIZE I was driving it when I am off. MR ALBERTS And on the days that you were working, did that taxi just stand there at home? MR MKHIZE Thulani Zimu was using it. MR ALBERTS If I am not mistaken your evidence earlier was that you were the driver of that vehicle at all times, nobody else? MR MKHIZE Let me explain that I am working at Rainbow Chicken. When I was off, I would drive it. CHAIRPERSON What is the name of the person who drove it whilst you were at work, Thulani what? Thulani what? MR MKHIZE Thulani Zimu. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MR ALBERTS My question was if I remember correctly, when Mr Chairman asked you a question regarding who the driver of that taxi was, you said only you. MR MKHIZE I meant when I was not working I used to drive it. When not, Thulani would drive it. MR ALBERTS The question was put to you whether this Mthethwa ever drove the vehicle and you said: "Oh no" only you are the driver. Are you changing your evidence now? MR MKHIZE That is a mistake. MR ALBERTS Did this Mthethwa also drive the car from time to time? MR MKHIZE It never happened even once that Qeda drove my vehicle. MR ALBERTS If you say when you moved to the suburbs you forgot about the area but you also say every weekend or on your off days you drove the vehicle there and back as a taxi? MR MKHIZE Yes. CHAIRPERSON What is the question? I didn't hear the question. MR ALBERTS The witness stated earlier in his evidence that when he moved to the suburbs I think his words were he put that area behind him, giving the impression that he had nothing further to do with the area but now he says on his off days he is a taxi driver and he drives on that route on all his off days. CHAIRPERSON Because of the violence in that area he left ...(inaudible) MR MKHIZE I do not understand the question because on that day I was on the road the whole day. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR ALBERTS You only left after this - I'm sorry, you left before this incident of the shooting, you left the area and went to live in the suburbs, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR ALBERTS I just want to confirm; your earlier evidence was you only left to go and live in the suburbs some time after this incident where your vehicle was ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, he said: "But when the violence started I moved away to the suburbs." Now: "When the violence started" might mean the general violence in that area it might mean this incident. Now I think that if you want to clear that up what you might ask really is; did you move, were you living in the suburbs at the time of this incident? MR ALBERTS At the time of this incident where your vehicle was attacked, were you living in the suburbs by then? MR MKHIZE Let me explain that my mother was still staying in the area and I was running a business. I did not forget that there were people staying there. CHAIRPERSON Ja. MR ALBERTS And you also said that when you moved to the suburbs you put the area behind you. CHAIRPERSON What about the area? MR MKHIZE ...(no English translation) MR ALBERTS This taxi route that you take does it go into that area? Just maybe to clear that up. MR MKHIZE No. It was not reaching the area where people liked to attack each other. MR ALBERTS Isn't that where you were attacked, in the area where you were staying? CHAIRPERSON But I think that really you want to know on that day if it is clear that he was the driver and Nxedi, isn't that the end of the matter? MR ALBERTS Yes, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes. He says that on that day he was lucky he got out alive and wasn't killed, so he was the driver. MR ALBERTS Yes Mr Chairman, I am just trying to establish on other days as well. That is also relevant. What is your relationship with this Mthethwa? MR MKHIZE I was not related to Qeda. We just grew up together, even with the applicants here. I then moved to the suburb and left them there. MR ALBERTS Thank you Mr Chairman, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ALBERTS CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink are there any questions you wish to put? MR BRINK No, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON You have ...(inaudible) to say yes. MR MALAN I just want this one question to be, for the sake of my peace of mind answered finally, how would you know that Mthethwa never drove your vehicle or have never driven your vehicle if it was in the control of another driver? MR MKHIZE If I am at work, I would not know what happens to my vehicle. MR MALAN Was the other driver a permanent driver, this Thulani Zimu? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR MALAN Would any one from time to time stand in for him, drive on his behalf? MR MKHIZE It would happen that Ndaba Cebekhulu drive my car. MR MALAN Could Mthethwa have driven the taxi? MR MKHIZE I cannot say, but as far as I know, he never drove it. But one cannot know what the drivers do when one is at work. MR MALAN Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any questions? ADV MOTATA Just one. Mr Mkhize you said you moved to the suburbs because there was violence. In which areas was there violence? MR MKHIZE I was born in Mboyi. Violence then started and people left the area. I then moved to the suburbs for safety of my children. ADV MOTATA Now within this area when you say violence was it gangster related or was it organisation against organisation? MR MKHIZE I did not know what was happening because one would just wake up in the morning and find a person dead. When you ask who killed that person, there would be no answer. I then realised that I might also be a victim and the best thing for me was to leave the area. ADV MOTATA In respect of political organisations, that is the IFP and ANC do you bear knowledge of which organisation was dominant in the Ziboya area? MR MKHIZE It was the IFP in Mboyi at that time. One cannot say the killings were done by the IFP or the ANC, but it is still going on. ADV MOTATA How long after the violence had taken place in that area did you move out to the suburbs? MR MKHIZE I stayed there for some time, and when I saw that the killings were going on, I decided to leave. ADV MOTATA Now I am asking you an opinion here, if you can't answer this please say so. Whilst you were living in the area was there talk that the ANC and perhaps the IFP were attacking each other? Did you ever hear something of that nature? MR MKHIZE Yes. That happened but eventually I left because people were killed mysteriously. CHAIRPERSON I don't think that really the purpose of that question is that. I think the purpose of the question is to find out from you whether it was well-known that in that area there was on-going conflict between the ANC and the IFP. MR MKHIZE There were political differences and people started killing each other. CHAIRPERSON Yes, my question was that it is well-known in that area that there was this conflict. MR MKHIZE It was well known yes, because other people had left the area and were staying in tents in Pietermaritzburg. CHAIRPERSON Does that answer your question? ADV MOTATA ...(inaudible) MR MALAN Can I just follow up on that? CHAIRPERSON Yes certainly. MR MALAN Mr Mkhize do you support a political organisation? MR MKHIZE No. MR MALAN At the time of the incident were you a supporter of the one or the other organisation? MR MKHIZE No. MR MALAN This Mr Thulani Zimu do you know him well? MR MKHIZE I will not say I know him that well because I am married and have children and Thulani does not have children. ADV MOTATA Mr Mkhize did you vote during the last elections in April 1994? Did you vote for any political party? MR MKHIZE Yes. ADV MOTATA Which party did you vote for? MR MKHIZE ANC. MR MALAN Do you know whether Mr Zimu voted and where he voted? MR MKHIZE I do not know because he is a bachelor and I am married. CHAIRPERSON Very well, thank you very much. You are excused from further attendance. Thanks for coming and volunteering to give evidence when requested to do so. ...(indistinct) MR MKHIZE Thank you, too. WITNESS IS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink isn't it a convenient stage to take the adjournment? MR BRINK Yes, Mr Chairman it is. I don't know, possibly my colleague could give an indication how long he proposes being with the second application in this matter because? CHAIRPERSON Yes. I am prepared to carry on but I want to take into account the people that operate, the interpreters, the people that operate this equipment and so on. They may have transport problems. MR BRINK I understand. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BRINK Possibly if we can adjourn just for a few minutes then I can ascertain whether after the break they are prepared to carry on. CHAIRPERSON Very well I will stand down for a little while. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) of carrying on until a little later this afternoon but the prospect of finishing the evidence of a witness between now and 5 o'clock is remote and therefore we have decided that we are now going to adjourn and we will resume promptly at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. I trust that counsel will make themselves available in time with their witnesses and everybody else so that we can promptly begin at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. Will that be convenient to you? MR ALBERTS Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And Mr Wills? MR WILLS Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Very well we now adjourn until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS