amntrans AMNESTY HEARING DURBAN NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54704&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/durban/ndlovu.htm CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Alberts, are we ready to begin? MR ALBERTS Yes Mr Chairman I will then call the second applicant Mr Ndlovu. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ndlovu are you prepared to take the oath, give evidence under oath? NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON You may sit down. What are your full names? MR NDLOVU Nkanyiso Wilfred Ndlovu. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell that first name? MR NDLOVU N-K-A-N-Y-I-S-O. EXAMINATION BY MR ALBERTS Mr Ndlovu, how old are you? MR NDLOVU I am 27 years old. MR ALBERTS And where were you born? MR NDLOVU In Camperdown. MR ALBERTS Where is that? MR NDLOVU In the rural area in Pietermaritzburg. MR ALBERTS And where did you grow up? MR NDLOVU I grew up there. MR ALBERTS Is that a rural area or is it a suburb? MR NDLOVU It is a rural area. MR ALBERTS And when you grew up were you brought up in a western way or more in a Zulu traditional way? MR NDLOVU I grew up in a rural set up. When I grew up, we used to look after the cattle and play the games of fighting sticks. The manner in which I grew up even taught me that my friends is independent upon me as much as I depend on him. So, if he is attacked ...[intervention] MR ALBERTS Mr Ndlovu, did you also practise the Zulu ceremonies, slaughtering animals for your ancestors etc.? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR ALBERTS And you were an IFP member as well, is that correct? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR ALBERTS How did you come to join the IFP? MR NDLOVU In the area where I grew up all the people were IFP members. I then became fond of the IFP and I then joined it. I followed all the policies of the IFP. MR ALBERTS Why did you like the IFP? MR NDLOVU Firstly, it abides by the Zulu values and the culture of the Zulus. It likes all the traditional ways of the Zulus and that is what we were following even at my house. I then liked it. MR ALBERTS You are currently serving a sentence for ten counts of murder and other counts of attempted murder and the possession of firearms committed on the 5 March 1993, is that correct? MR NDLOVU Yes, that is true. MR ALBERTS And you committed these offences together with the first applicant Mr Dladla? MR NDLOVU No, only Mabhungu. The only person who has already testified and was with me on that day was Mabhungu. A third person is not here. CHAIRPERSON What was the name that you mentioned? MR NDLOVU Mabhungu Absolon Dladla. MR ALBERTS Mr Dladla yesterday gave evidence regarding a third person that was involved in the shooting. MR NDLOVU That is true. MR ALBERTS Who is that third person? MR NDLOVU He is late Siphiwe Zondi. MR ALBERTS You heard the testimony of Mr Dladla yesterday, is that right? MR NDLOVU Yes, I did. MR ALBERTS And what he told us, is that correct? MR NDLOVU Yes, that is true. MR CHAIRPERSON Perhaps your question should be a little more specific. What he told us about the commission of the offence and matters relating to that, do you confirm his evidence in that regard? MR NDLOVU There are some other things that I cannot confirm because I was not present when those things happened. MR ALBERTS The shooting at that mini bus and the killing of the people, were you present at that time? MR NDLOVU I was present. MR ALBERTS And as far as the aspects where you were mentioned by Mr Dladla, his testimony in that regard, correct and the truth? MR NDLOVU Yes, but I want to put my own version. CHAIRPERSON Yes, tell us your role? MR NDLOVU In Nkanyezini where I was now staying, because my family had to leave eMboni where we used to stay because of the violence, violence erupted also there. I was already a grown up when we arrived at this place because I was already attending school. I realised after some time that there were people who were now disgruntled and did not want to support the IFP and longer. The secretary of the IFP, Mr Shelembe then died. Before he died, Mr Mkhize's kombi, the one who gave evidence yesterday, was seen driving past there. I ignored that... CHAIRPERSON I think you should confine yourself to what you saw and what your experience was rather than tell us what others told you, please. I think that the general background of the conflict in the area generally between people who were in the IFP and those who were against the IFP we have heard evidence about that generally, you understand. I think that counsel is trying to get information from you about what happened on the day when the passengers in this kombi were shot at. How did it come about that you were involved in that incident? MR NDLOVU On the 4th, Thursday 1993, I was sitting at a shop, having a rest when Mr Makhekhe's car stopped there. CHAIRPERSON Whilst you were just sitting where? MR NDLOVU It was at Ngidi's shop. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR NDLOVU A white car, belonging to Makhekhe then came there. makhekhe was with Mabhungu Dladla in this car. We belonged to the same party, and they said that they were looking for me because they wanted to talk to me. Makhekhe then asked me to get into the car and we then drove off. Makhekhe then told me that they were planning a revenge for what happened to the children. He also told me that they were now suffering in eMboni. They told me that they were no longer free. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR NDLOVU Yes, I heard that children had been shot. CHAIRPERSON MR NDLOVU Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but that conflict had been there before the children had been shot, isn't it? MR NDLOVU They told me that they wanted to attack Thembinkosi Mkhize's kombi because it is known that this is the kombi that was used to attack IFP members. I felt very determined when I heard that because he also tried to kill me and I survived. Another person who was with me in that taxi was killed by them. CHAIRPERSON MR NDLOVU Yes, I heard that through the radio. CHAIRPERSON So now they tell you that they want to avenge that killing? MR NDLOVU Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now tell us what happened then? MR NDLOVU They told me that they wanted to avenge and attack Nofo's kombi because it was known as the kombi that was carrying people who were attacking IFP members. CHAIRPERSON Which very same kombi? MR NDLOVU Ja, it is the kombi belonging to one Nofo. CHAIRPERSON When was this attack that you survived? MR NDLOVU I think it was in August 1992. MR ALBERTS At the time, did you see the kombi or did you just suspect that that kombi was involved? MR NDLOVU I saw it with my very own eyes. I also saw three people alighting from that kombi. It was not very far. MR ALBERTS And who was the driver of that kombi at the time? MR NDLOVU It was far. I think it was between 500 to 700 metres from me. I therefore could not see who were the people in the taxi. I could only see that three people alighted. CHAIRPERSON MR NDLOVU Yes. MR ALBERTS What happened on that day in August 1992? MR NDLOVU We were five, walking together. One of us was injured, also by being attacked by the ANC supporters. I was also with him on that day when he was shot and got injured. As he was limping, we walked faster than him and he was therefore left behind. When we reached a place where there were bushes we decided to wait for them and as we were waiting there, we observed a car that was driven not on a used road, but on the disused one. At that time, this disused road was only used by pedestrians. This surprised me and I even commented about this to a person who was next to me. It then stopped near the river, where three people alighted. I thought these people were going to fetch water. After about thirty minutes after we saw this car, shots were fired. I could not make out whether these shots came from far or where. When I looked to the direction where we were coming from, I saw a person carrying a firearm and shooting towards us. I do not know what happened to the person who was with me. I ran away. MR ALBERTS And one of your companions died during that attack, is that correct? MR NDLOVU The person who died is not the one who was with me at that time. MR ALBERTS And when Mokeke told you that they want to avenge the attack of the children and you talked about the kombi, what did you say to him? MR NDLOVU Makhekhe told me that he wanted that kombi to be attacked, because it was known as the kombi that carried people who were attacking us, the IFP supporters. MR ALBERTS And what was your response? MR NDLOVU I felt bitter because this kombi was seen driving past when Shelembe was killed. I also saw it the day we were attacked. I was therefore easily influenced when Makhekhe told me that he wanted this kombi to be attacked and wanted me to be present so that I could be of assistance. MR ALBERTS And did you give Mokeke the information you gave us regarding the kombi? MR NDLOVU I did not mention it because this was widely known by the IFP and the ANC supporters in Nkanyezini. Everybody knew about these incidents. MR ALBERTS Regarding the kombi being involved in attacks, did you volunteer that information to Mokeke and Mr Dladla? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR ALBERTS And did the planning of the attack and did the attack take place as Mr Dladla testified yesterday? MR NDLOVU No. MR ALBERTS Is there anything that you feel you should add regarding how the attack happened as far as your involvement is concerned, to what Mr Dladla has already testified? MR NDLOVU No, there is nothing I can say. CHAIRPERSON First of all, do you confirm how you came into possession of firearms on that occasion? MR NDLOVU Yes, they were given to us by Makhekhe. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR ALBERTS Anything you want to add regarding the attack as such? MR NDLOVU After attacks on us, the kombi would then be driven to Lion Park, where the attackers would then hide. MR ALBERTS After this attack, what did you do? Mr Dladla said that the firearms were left with you. What did you do then? MR NDLOVU The firearms were left with me. I then hid them. MR ALBERTS Yes, and what did you do with the guns? MR NDLOVU After crushing these people and the firearms were left with me, I took the AK 47 and the R1, and wrapped them in the overall I was wearing when attacked these people. This is after the attack. I took the shotgun with me to Ntombela's house where I was spending my nights because I had run away from home. I am related to the Ntombelas. MR ALBERTS Yes, and what did you do with the firearms? MR NDLOVU I hid the AK 47 and the R1 in the bushes nearby. I concealed the shotgun in the room I was sleeping in. Because this Ntombela house was also not a safe place, because it was once attacked, I knew... CHAIRPERSON MR ALBERTS MR NDLOVU Yes, I am telling you about what transpired after the attack. I took the firearms that were left by my friends and I put the R1 rifle and the AK47 together, I wrapped them together and went to conceal them. I then took the shotgun with me to where I spending my nights. CHAIRPERSON What did you do with the R1 and AK after wrapping them in overalls? MR NDLOVU I hid them in the bushes near my house. CHAIRPERSON What guns did you keep? Apart from the AK and the R1, what guns did you keep? MR NDLOVU I only kept the shotgun that I took with me to Ntombela's house. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR ALBERTS How did you think this attack on this mini bus was going to help the cause of the IFP in that area? MR NDLOVU Our aim was to kill and threaten these people who were killed the IFP members. We could not go and get instructions from our leaders before we did something because our leaders were also threatened when they visited our area. CHAIRPERSON How would you know that the people in that kombi would be the ones that killed the children? MR NDLOVU These people live in our area and they were using the kombi. CHAIRPERSON But there were lots of other people in that area who used that kombi as well? MR NDLOVU What I am saying is that chances were very slim that we could get people we did not want to attack. CHAIRPERSON MR NDLOVU Yes. CHAIRPERSON Will you please interpret to him properly? You did not know the identity of the people that killed the children? MR NDLOVU Yes, I did not. CHAIRPERSON How would you know then that the time you were going to attack this kombi it would have the people that killed the children? MR NDLOVU I regard everything that happened in Nkanyezini, including the incident where children were killed, as the work of the ANC supporters. It does not matter who, individual, has done it. It is wholly done by the ANC. We, the IFP were hurt when children were killed. All of us who belonged to the IFP. It then had to hurt the ANC leadership too, so that they could come and tell their supporters to stop doing this. Furthermore, Mr Gwala, who was the leader then before he died, also encouraged ANC to kill us. He would have felt something then, if his supporters were killed. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR ALBERTS How did you believe that the killing of ANC people would help the cause of the IFP? MR NDLOVU Firstly, I want to tell the Commission that the IFP members in the area were no longer as free as they used to be, before the ANC came into the area. Secondly, there is another area known as Ndweba that is adjacent to iNkanyezini. These areas are separated be the river. The IFP supporters in Nkanyezini were killed extensively in such a way that one family, that was a very strong pro-IFP supporter was shot at and their houses burnt until they decided to leave the area. I therefore want to make it clear that the IFP supporters in the area were no longer safe because whenever it is rumoured that one is the IFP member, one would be killed. Our killing of the AnC supporters to realise that they were not the only people in the area. CHAIRPERSON Can I just interrupt you and say that from what you tell me, is it correct that, just as there were attacks by ANC people on IFP, there were numerous attacks by IFP people on the ANC? MR NDLOVU I would not say so because there was never a known incident in Nkanyezini, where an ANC member was killed. Attacks on ANC members by the IFP was only happening In Maqongqo. MR ALBERTS You stated that you wanted the IFP to grow because of this killing. How would the killing of these people in the mini bus help the IFP to grow, that is what I am trying to get at? MR NDLOVU We wanted to make people who know themselves to be IFP supporters, not to be shy or afraid to be known as such, because of fear of being killed. The killing was going to show the ANC supporters that they were not the only people who could kill. IFP supporters could also kill. This would then stop them from killing us. They would know that if they attack us, we would avenge that attack. MR ALBERTS Mr Ndlovu did you hold any position in the IFP or were you just an ordinary card carrying member? MR NDLOVU I was just a card-carrying member. MR ALBERTS And how do you feel now about this killing of ten people which you were involved in? MR NDLOVU I feel very very bad. I do not even know what to say to my people. These people were just captives in the car, who could not help themselves or run away. I also feel pity for this woman who is in the wheelchair today, because I know her before she was injured. I know how beautiful she was. I realised now how bad it is for such a young person not to be able to walk on her own. I also hope that God forgave all those who died for what they were doing while they were still alive. I am very sorry to everybody and I do not know how I can show how sorry I am. Even if these people who were attacked were the ones we were looking for, it would have been the same case. As we are in prison, we were visited by the leadership of the IFP, and were told how inhumane it was not to respect other peoples lives. It then dawned on me that that even if we got the people we were looking for, I would have felt bad now because those people were also black people like me. They were not supposed to have died, whether they were IFP or ANC members. These parties can both exist without any problems. MR ALBERTS Thank you Mr Chairman. Nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ALBERTS CHAIRMAN Any cross examination Mr Wills? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS MR ALBERTS MR WILLS Yes, thank you for pointing that out. Possibly I might ask and it will be interpreted to you. In answer to the question in Section 11(a), was your act committed in the execution of an order or with the approval of an organisation, institution or body and you say, and I quote the English, "Nobody ordered me, but I did it as an act of vengeance." MR NDLOVU That is true. MR WILLS MR NDLOVU As far as I know, if you say that I must go and get that cup, you will be sending me to do that. But if you say, let us go and do this, you are not sending me because both of us will perform that act. Nobody therefore sent me to do something. The only person was the one who said we must go and do something, together. MR WILLS MR NDLOVU When I joined the IFP, I did not do that because I liked a certain leader or a person. I did this because I liked the policy of the party. Nobody, even the president of the IFP can say that is contrary to the policies of the party. I knew then, that it was against party policy to kill people, therefore nobody from the party would have told me to do so. I did not have a commander to give me instructions. I was not trained. CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS MR NDLOVU That is true. The leader of the IFP in the Midlands did announce that in the media that we should not avenge the killings. This was also reiterated by the leader for the IFP in Mboyi that IFP supporters should stay calm. As I say, this is what I decided on my own free will after I was asked to join in this by my friends. I am also a human being who can be hurt, and who knows what to do if he feels that his life and that of the people around him was not safe. There is nothing I could do. MR WILLS MR NDLOVU Yes. I want to ask all the IFP structure to forgive me in this because it was against the IFP policy. This is against the party policy, but we had to do it so that the party could grow. I believe in doing something that you feel is helpful at the time and that is how I felt at that time. MR WILLS I put it to you, that you could not have been doing it for your organisation. If your very organisation from the leaders in your area and to that extent I refer to Mr Bernard Mkhize had told you specifically not to take revenge? MR NDLOVU I deny that. I felt this is what I had to do for the party. I was not going to drink these people's blood, nor was I going to eat them after they had died. I was not going to gain anything. MR CHAIRPERSON I think the question really was that you did this to satisfy your own anger and not to satisfy the policy of your organisation? What do you say to that? MR NDLOVU I cannot say I was doing this for gain. I am the IFP member... CHAIRPERSON MR NDLOVU Where did that anger come from? CHAIRPERSON MR NDLOVU I had an anger within me, yes. I was angered because were being killed as IFP members. I was also a victim of attacks but fortunately I was not injured. I am not boasting about this. What I am saying is that I got angered because of the attacks on us. The IFP as such, however, cannot get angry but because it is made of us, the people, we get angry as individuals about what is happening to us. Many people were angry but perhaps they did not get a chance to avenge their anger. MR WILLS Mr Ndlovu I want to turn to another aspect of this incident which causes me great concern. I refer the Committee to the finding of the Trial Court at Page 60 and effectively what the Judge found, he found as a fact that they and by they, the Judge refers to you and your co-accused, the first applicant in this matter, that you did not believe that the people in the kombi were in fact ANC supporters. Can you comment on that? MR NDLOVU What did the Judge say? (Laughter) CHAIRPERSON I think to quote the exact words of the Judgment, let that be translated to him, this is Page 60, lines 3 to 5. MR WILLS MR NDLOVU That is what was said by the judge. MR WILLS The Judge went further and I quote; "We find as a fact that they did not believe that they were." MR NDLOVU No, the judge was mistaken there. We are the IFP members and we could not have killed anybody who is not an ANC supporter. MR WILLS MR NDLOVU Do you mean that the people in the kombi were ANC supporters? MR MOTATA CHAIRPERSON The conclusion which the Judge drew, yes. MR WILLS MR MOTATA I follow thank you. MR ALBERTS With respect Mr Chairman, the evidence at the original trial was in fact that they believed that they were ANC members. This Amnesty application form is a very cryptic form. It surely would not have given all the evidence he gave us today. CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS That is indeed so. Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON In your application form, I think he better have his application form in front of him so that in fairness to him he may look at it. We have a terrible copy but Mr Alberts do you have a copy that your client can have a look at please? MR ALBERTS Mr Chairman I think my copy is a bit better. CHAIRPERSON: He has a copy of his application form. Precisely what is it that you say he has not put down in his application form. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Your application form, is that correct? MR NDLOVU The problem with this form is that I was replying to the questions in the form as they were. I therefore did not see a space where I could put this story. But I am telling the truth. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR WILLS If the Committee will just bear with me very briefly. I refer you to the Paragraph in the Zulu application form, the application form which you filled out and the question 10(b). MR NDLOVU Yes I can see that. MR WILLS Can you look at the Section of your application form Section 10(b)? CHAIRPERSON That is Page 11 of the papers? MR WILLS Page 13, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Will you turn to Page 13 please. MR WILLS Can you see that you had left half a page empty there? ...[intervention] MR MALAN Mr Wills, may I just ask, is this material to the application? This is not a new version brought to us. It is the version that was presented also at the trial time. What are you really looking to achieve? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON What is it that is not the truth. Because if I look at the English translation on Page 21 of the answer to 10(b). He says it was to protect the IFP members and to create a climate where they would canvas support freely without fear of ANC attacks. The answer is given in his application form. MR WILLS Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What do you find wrong with that answer? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS MR NDLOVU Do you say this because I did not mention it? If that is the case, please note that you cannot put a donkey and a same kraal. This space here was for something that I had said in that space. I would not have put something else there. MR WILLS When you were attacked by, on the numerous occasions you refer to by the ANC people, were those people women that attacked you? MR NDLOVU No. Those were young boys like me. MR WILLS So when you saw that the people that you were shooting in the bus were women, why did you continue? MR NDLOVU Let me explain that. People fled Mboyi to other places. When they came back in order to attack Mboyi, they would go to eNkanyezini first to prepare themselves. Woman or mothers in eNkanyezini were not supposed to allow fugitives to come and hide in the area, in their houses. They were supposed to chase those people away. MR WILLS Mr Ndlovu, we are in fact in a position to put to you today, that not only were the people that were actually in the bus on that particular day not ANC supporters, they also had absolutely nothing to do with any killing of children. MR NDLOVU That is true. What is important is that we did not get the people we were looking for. it was not important then who were the people we attacked then. We however realise that what we did was wrong, that is why we are here today to say that we are sorry, we made a mistake. MR WILLS Did you attack the wrong bus? MR NDLOVU No the bus was right but the people inside were wrong people. But we are still sorry, even if the bus was right. We blame ourselves for that. We had no right to disturb these people if they were ANC supporters. What we had to disturb was their deeds. MR WILLS I want to concentrate for a little while on the issue of the procurement of firearms. MR NDLOVU Yes, but I still want to say something about the firearms. MR WILLS In the evidence before the Committee there were three firearms utilised in this attack, is that correct? MR NDLOVU Yes. CHAIRPERSON Just answer the question please. MR BRINK Mr Chairman, sorry to interrupt. Is this line of questioning really essential to the merits of this application? CHAIRPERSON MR NDLOVU ... [no English translation] MR WILLS You say that you procured these guns or these guns were provided immediately before the attack or shortly before the attack by one, I think his name was Simon Zondi, is that correct? Siphiwe Zondi? MR NDLOVU Yes, Makhekhe is Siphiwe. MR WILLS MR NDLOVU ... [no English translation] MR WILLS Now, am I correct in remembering that all of these three guns came from that same source? MR NDLOVU Yes. We got them from his hands. MR WILLS Do you know where he got the guns from? MR NDLOVU ... [no English translation] MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON There might have been all kinds of reasons, for security purposes, he might have felt unsafe having the guns with him. What has that got to do with the issues really? MR WILLS If somebody comes to this Committee and even on certain issues which possibly are material but are not absolutely essential to the issue of amnesty, the evidence is blatantly incorrect. CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON You see, if you know what the truth is then you can put the question to him. How are you to know what the truth is when the man who supplied the guns has died? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON If you have information with those light on it, put it to him. MR WILLS Mr Ndlovu do you know how Mr Siphiwe Zondi did die? MR NDLOVU i did hear that Siphiwe died. MR WILLS Is it correct that there is a certain person by the name of Mr Bernard Mkhize who is presently awaiting trial in regard to this matter? MR NDLOVU No. I do not know. What I know is that Makhekhe attacked Mkhize's house and that is where he got killed. MR WILLS If you could just bear with me for 30 seconds, thank you. Thank you Mr Chairperson that will be all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink are there any questions you wish to put. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK Mr Chairman, just one from the point of view of clarity. Mr Ndlovu, during the course of your evidence you mentioned that a close relative called Mtombela with whom you stayed? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR BRINK Is that David Mtombela? MR NDLOVU No. It is another ntombela who is our neighbour MR BRINK Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK MR MALAN Mr Ndlovu, this Mr Mokeke, was he an office bearer of Inkatha or an SPU or anything? MR NDLOVU He was initially staying in Maqonggqo. He then came to Mboyi after IFP structure had already been established there. He therefore did not have any position in Mboyi. I never hear that he was an SPU member. MR MALAN Mr Dladla gave evidence that you were also sprinkled with traditional medicine before you left for the attack. Who did the sprinkling? MR NDLOVU The sprinkling was done by Makhekhe Zondi. MR MALAN The witness, Mr Mkhize that gave evidence yesterday, the owner of the taxi. In the trial you said that you know him well, is that correct? MR NDLOVU Yes. I grew in front of him. MR MALAN Did you know that that kombi belonged to him? MR NDLOVU I knew. MR MALAN Do you know the name of the driver that Mr Mkhize alleges was the driver in his absence Tulani Zemu? MR NDLOVU Yes, I knew the driver. MR MALAN Was he often driving that vehicle? MR NDLOVU Because I had left iNkanyezini, I did not know what was then happening there. I only heard stories about Nkanyezini from my co-members. They have gone underground now because they are afraid, but they are still members of the IFP. MR MALAN Do you know Kepa? MR NDLOVU His name is Qeda. I know him. i grew in front of him. He was ny uncle's neighbour before we left Mboyi. MR MALAN Was he also the driver of the kombi? MR NDLOVU I have never seen him driving it. i only heard from colleagues in Nkanyezini. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR ALBERTS Nothing thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much. You may go to your seat. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Are you calling any further witnesses? MR ALBERTS No, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Wills, are you calling any witnesses? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson we will not be leading any witnesses. MR ALBERTS IN ARGUMENT CHAIRPERSON Even if they continued after realising that they were women and not the men they were targeting? MR ALBERTS Mr Chairman, with respect, in a number of incidents violent, politically motivated incidents in the past, some of them who have received amnesty. The people surely should have known that they were going to attack innocent people. If you plant a bomb in a street or in a busy restaurant, surely you know you are, right from the start, your intention is to kill innocent people. CHAIRPERSON MR ALBERTS Mr Chairman, as I have been saying, surely this Commission is not bound by decisions on other matters by the Truth Commission but where a person do get amnesty, that should be taken into account, other decisions made by the Commission. CHAIRPERSON MR ALBERTS CHAIRPERSON ... [inaudible] whether the Act, the requirements of the Act have been satisfied apart from the point that you have mentioned and that is that they have made a full disclosure. MR ALBERTS CHAIRPERSON MR ALBERTS MR MALAN Mr Alberts on this point, when confronted with the question as to proceeding with the shooting after realising that they had the wrong target, their reply was given that they continued because they wanted the ANC to feel the same pain that they had felt. Now measured by this proportionality principle against the objective, would you argue that on whether they qualify for amnesty? MR ALBERTS Yes. Their evidence was even at the time when they realised this is not the same people they thought would be in the vehicle, they still thought these are people from the ANC area and therefore they thought they were still attacking ANC supporters at least. CHAIRPERSON MR ALBERTS Mr Chairman their evidence was that they believed this bus to be involved. Mr Dladla said that one of the people at the scene where the children were killed made mention of this bus. Therefore their initial belief was that they were now going to act against this bus. Their bona fide belief at that stage was this bus was connected to the violence and the occupants would be the perpetrators of the violence. MR MALAN The argument then, on the evidence is that because they came from that area, if they should be killing them, that would be advancing the cause which is the basis of your whole argument. The question is, is that not so far removed that it could not be taken into account at all as furthering the objectives through the proceeding with elimination after realising the identity? MR ALBERTS CHAIRPERSON MR ALBERTS