amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1997-08-13 DURBAN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54708&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/durban/zulu.htm "We take note with regret, that you have made no attempt whatsoever to compensate our clients or their families. This seems to be a good indication that your application for amnesty is untimely" With respect, Mr Chairperson, it does seem that this is about reparation or compensation. And then later on it said" "Alternatively, it might be an indication of an absence of remorse on your part. We consequently of the intention to oppose your application with all the means at our disposal". "If you sign these documents then we hereby undertake not to oppose your application for amnesty in any way". With respect, it therefore seems clear that if the person consents to the sentence, then no further application by the members of the families and the injured will be considered. Could Mr Purshotam please explain this matter to the Committee and then present his basis to us. CHAIRPERSON Mr Purshotam, how do respond to these points that have been made? MR PURSHOTAM Subsequently, I have had an opportunity of speaking to a number of our clients, most of them by the way are still not present before this Committee and all of them have indicated to me, their opposition to the applications. And secondly, the suffering which has occurred as a result of this incident and the lack of reparation or compensation on the part of the applicants. CHAIRPERSON MR PURSHOTAM Yes, Mr Chairman, I have prepared an address in that regard and I intended relating it to the Committee towards the end of the proceedings but if the Committee wishes that I address them on that aspect, I shall do so now. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] benefit of counsel ...[inaudible] on what basis ...[inaudible] MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON Yes, your outline ...[inaudible] MR PURSHOTAM Section 20 of the Act mentions that, in considering an application for amnesty, this Committee shall satisfy itself that the application complies with the requirements of the Act. The Act, omission or offence to which the application relates, is an Act associated with a political objective. The term, "associated with a political objective" is mentioned on numerous occasions in the Act and it appears to be a central part of - central consideration in any application which comes before this Committee. JUDGE NGOEPE MR PURSHOTAM JUDGE NGOEPE Yes, and you will then grant me an opportunity later to address you on each of those points. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes, all you require is the outline ...[inaudible] on what basis you are here to lead evidence, in the light of the contents of that letter. MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON Mr Prinsloo, we are disposed towards granting Mr Purshotam the right to proceed with the calling of evidence. We are satisfied that he has outlined the basis on which he is approaching this case. MR PRINSLOO As you please, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes Mr? MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman. I call Tabani Richard Zulu as the first witness. Mr Chairman, will this evidence be on oath? CHAIRPERSON He must be sworn in. TABANI RICHARD ZULU (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman. For the record Mr Zulu, what is your age? MR ZULU MR PURSHOTAM Are you married and do you have children. MR ZULU MR PURSHOTAM How many children do you have? MR ZULU MR PURSHOTAM Are you employed presently? MR ZULU MR PURSHOTAM Mr Zulu, the Committee would like you to relate to them, the incidents which occurred on the 9th of October. Were you traveling on a Putco bus on that particular day? MR ZULU That is correct. MR PURSHOTAM Had you finished off work on that particular day? MR ZULU That is correct. MR PURSHOTAM And were you then proceeding home? MR ZULU That is correct. MR PURSHOTAM Could you please tell the Committee what happened while you were on the Putco bus and the incident which led to you losing your right arm. MR ZULU I was from work on that particular day. We boarded the bus in Alice Street. The bus ferried us from Alice Street through the centre of town and when we got to a certain place called Sereteri, that Hill. There was a garage further down there. I was sitting on the right hand side. I saw White gentlemen in a private car. Just as we were passing in the bus, they got into the car very quickly, with so much speed. As the bus was driving along the road - apparently the driver had also noticed that they were apparently following us. It was still the old road, not this new one that has been rebuilt. There was a sharp curve. Just as the bus was taking the curve, we saw this car speeding up towards us. The bus continued on that road - they followed us. Just as the bus was approaching the bridge - that is the side from which we got injured - I saw two White people, they were protruding through the windows and they were having machine guns. They started firing at the bus. We all started screaming in the bus. Many that I saw were still alive, some were already dead at that time. They continued firing at us, despite the fact that there were some who had already died. Thereafter, I realised that I had been injured. I lost consciousness thereafter. MR PURSHOTAM How long did this attack last, in your view? MR ZULU They were quite quick because I believe they had an intention. It happened so quickly. MR PURSHOTAM If I were to ask you to put a time frame to the attack, would you say it lasted 10 seconds, two seconds, one minute, whatever? Would you be able to put a time limit on the attack? MR ZULU I cannot be able to do that because all this happened so quickly. Apparently they were trying to kill us all. MR PURSHOTAM Was the bus full at that time? MR ZULU The bus was very full. MR PURSHOTAM And were the lights of the bus switched on at the time? MR ZULU The lights of the bus were constantly on, they were never switched off at any stage. MR PURSHOTAM So it was easy for someone who was on the outside to see that the bus was fully packed? MR ZULU That is correct. MR PURSHOTAM Could you tell the Committee what happened - what injuries you suffered in the incident? MR ZULU MR PURSHOTAM Are you a right-handed person or a left-handed person? MR ZULU MR PURSHOTAM What job did you do before this incident? MR ZULU MR PURSHOTAM Are you a petrol or a diesel mechanic? MR ZULU Both, I work on both. MR PURSHOTAM Are you qualified in both the fields. MR ZULU That is correct. MR PURSHOTAM Who did you work for? MR ZULU I was working for NPA. MR PURSHOTAM How many years of service did you have at the NPA? MR ZULU It was now 19 years. MR PURSHOTAM Being a right-handed person, after this incident, have you ever been employed as a result of this? MR ZULU MR PURSHOTAM How are you managing to support your wife and children? MR ZULU I was given retirement. MR PURSHOTAM Are you a member of any - at the time of the incident, did you think that you might be attacked on that particular day, as a Black person? MR ZULU MR PURSHOTAM Did you know that on that particular day, in the morning, there was an incident at the beach-front where allegedly PAC members stabbed White people? Did you know about that incident? MR ZULU I heard that after quite a long time. After I had regained my consciousness when I was in hospital. MR PURSHOTAM But did you know about that incident while you were traveling on the bus on that particular day. MR ZULU No, I had absolutely no knowledge thereof. MR PURSHOTAM Did you think that any reasonable person would attack you as a Black person as a result of that incident on the beach-front? CHAIRPERSON He had not heard of that incident. MR PURSHOTAM Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. If you had heard of the incident on that particular day, do you think a person - any person would have attacked you as a Black person as a result of that incident - if it was within your knowledge that the incident had occurred on that day? MR ZULU When that happened, we as Black people, we were hated so much by the Whites. MR PURSHOTAM Do you think that the attack was related to any political objective? MR ZULU I do not believe so, I do not believe that they could have killed innocent people if it had to do with politics. MR PURSHOTAM Do you have anything else to relate to the Committee. MR ZULU They should be forgiven and their children should continue with their education. I am totally dissatisfied and I refuse to do that because when the case was still on in Durban, we were a laughing stock. They kept on looking at us and they kept on laughing at us. That actually showed that whatever they did, they did to animals. Now how do you forgive a person who regards you as an animal? They did not even hide it that they regarded us as animals. MR PURSHOTAM Have any of the applicants approached you and asked for forgiveness? MR ZULU MR PURSHOTAM Have they written to you asking for your forgiveness? MR ZULU MR PURSHOTAM Thank you very much. That is all Mr Chairman - from this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON Are there any questions you wish to put to this witness? MS VAN DER WALT Mr Zulu, ...[intervention] INTERPRETER The interpreter could unfortunately not hear the question, could it be repeated please? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Mr Zulu, were you present yesterday when the applicants testified? MR ZULU I was sick. MS VAN DER WALT MR ZULU MS VAN DER WALT Mr Zulu, did you instruct Mr Purshotam to oppose the amnesty application of the applicant? MR ZULU That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Zulu, why did Mr Purshotam write a letter to the applicants in which he said that if they paid the amount of compensation claimed, there would be no further opposition to the amnesty application? MR PURSHOTAM Mr Chairman, may I answer that question? CHAIRPERSON Just let him answer and see what he has to say. MR ZULU MS VAN DER WALT MR ZULU My main concern is my children as well as my family because whatever I had at the time, my resources are now being finished. I have absolutely nothing left. Now I am rightfully concerned that I have nothing. I should be compensated. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Zulu, is that correct, that your interest lies with the payment of compensation only? MR ZULU Yes, we should be compensated but that is not my main concern MS VAN DER WALT But you cannot contribute anything relating to the evidence of the applicants where they testified why they committed the acts and the fact that they were relying on the fact that it was an act committed with a political motive. MR ZULU If that was the case, they should have gone to the beach where the Whites has been attacked. They were not supposed to have come to us to attack us as innocent people. MS VAN DER WALT No further question. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Have you any questions Mr Prinsloo? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Zulu, do you receive a pension from the Natal Provincial Administration? MR ZULU MR PRINSLOO Do you receive a pension from the Natal Provincial Administration? MR ZULU MR PRINSLOO What is the amount of pension you receive monthly? MR ZULU MR PRINSLOO Does you wife work? MR ZULU No English translation. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILKINSON MR ZULU MR WILKINSON Immediately after the attack on the bus, you were admitted to hospital, is that correct? MR ZULU Yes, that is correct, I was admitted to the hospital. MR WILKINSON And it was while you were in hospital that you learnt that there had been an attack that same morning - that there had been an attack that same morning launched by Black people against Whites in Durban, is that correct? MR ZULU No, you must listen properly. When this happened I was at work. I was working and I was going to knock off at night. I knocked off at night and I boarded a bus. I did not know that something had taken place at the beach-front that morning. MR WILKINSON But you later learnt of the incident, is that correct? MR ZULU I only heard later when I was at the hospital, after a few months. MR WILKINSON Why do you think Black people attacked Whites that morning the beach? MR ZULU I do not know because I was not there. MR WILKINSON Do you think politics could have played a role? MR ZULU No English translation. MR WILKINSON Is it possible that politics could have played a role in the attack? MR ZULU I do not believe that it had anything to do with politics. I think they just intended to kill Black people. MR WILKINSON No, please listen to my question. The attack that morning by Black people on White people, could that have been done for any political motive or for political gain? MR ZULU I have absolutely no knowledge thereof. MR WILKINSON Is it possible? MR ZULU MR WILKINSON Why would thirty people armed with knives run down a street and start stabbing people left and right? MR ZULU MR WILKINSON Is it entirely impossible that the attack that morning could have been politically motivated? MR ZULU MR WILKINSON Sir, I would actually like you to answer the question in respect of reconciliation. Will you agree with me that the incident could possibly have been politically inspired? MR ZULU ADV DE JAGER Will the answer one way or the other make any difference? Will it actually assist us in any way as far as the application is concerned? MR WILKINSON ADV DE JAGER But that is something about which the Committee will have to decide on the facts before it. Somebody who was not involved cannot really give an opinion on the matter. MR WILKINSON He has formulated certain rather strict opinions but let us leave it there for the moment as it pleases the Committee. MR WILKINSON JUDGE WILSON INTERPRETER MR WILKINSON Since the conviction of the applicants and up till today, all three applicants have been in custody for five years of which three and a half years were spent on death row. How do you expect the applicants to have been able to pay you any compensation or assist in compensating you? MR ZULU I have a belief that their organisation had sent them to do this, so they can see to finish what they do about the whole situation. MR WILKINSON No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILKINSON JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Zulu, did you know some of the passengers in the bus? MR ZULU Yes, because we used to board the very same bus almost every day. JUDGE NGOEPE Where were they from, as far as you know? MR ZULU Do you mean the same people that we board the bus with? JUDGE NGOEPE Yes. MR ZULU We were staying at different places because the bus was going to the tents. There were those who were staying at Canning as well as Nozaza, as well as at the ...[inaudible] JUDGE NGOEPE Let me put my question this way because I realise it was ambiguous. You were coming from work when you boarded the bus ...[intervention] MR ZULU That is correct. JUDGE NGOEPE Now, these other people that you knew that you used to board this bus with, as far as you know, where were they from - that evening? MR ZULU We always board the bus with them when we are coming from work so they were also coming from work. JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you. ADV DE JAGER How old are your children. MR ZULU My son that is my first born, finished university last year. The other one is doing matric at the moment. ADV DE JAGER A boy or a girl? MR ZULU ADV DE JAGER And the rest, are they all at school? MR ZULU ADV DE JAGER So all the rest of the children are still at school? MR ZULU That is correct. ADV DE JAGER MR ZULU I think that can be handled by my attorney. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink, are there any questions you wish to put to the witness? MR BRINK No thank you, Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Mr Purshotam, any re-examination? MR PURSHOTAM No, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON Mr Zulu, thank you very much. Yes, Mr Purshotam WITNESS EXCUSED MR PURSHOTAM Mr Chairman, I now propose to call Themba Buthelezi. THEMBA BUTHELEZI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR PURSHOTAM Mr Buthelezi, what is your age? MR BUTHELEZI MR PURSHOTAM Mr Buthelezi, what is your age? MR BUTHELEZI MR PURSHOTAM Do you have any children? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR PURSHOTAM How many? MR BUTHELEZI Three. MR PURSHOTAM What are their ages? MR BUTHELEZI My first born is nine years old, my second born seven years and third born six years. MR PURSHOTAM Are you employed at present? MR BUTHELEZI No. MR PURSHOTAM When did you loose your job? MR BUTHELEZI When I got injured. MR PURSHOTAM Are those the injuries which you suffered in the incident which has been mentioned this morning? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR PURSHOTAM MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I do agree with him. MR PURSHOTAM Do you have anything to add to that, without repeating what he said? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I do have something to say, more especially about myself - how I got injured. MR PURSHOTAM Yes, please proceed. MR BUTHELEZI MR PURSHOTAM Yes, and were you shot as well? MR BUTHELEZI MR PURSHOTAM In which parts of your body were you wounded? MR BUTHELEZI MR PURSHOTAM How long were you in hospital? MR BUTHELEZI MR PURSHOTAM Have you applied for employment since your discharge from hospital? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I did. MR PURSHOTAM And what was the result of your application for employment? MR BUTHELEZI MR PURSHOTAM What are you suffering from at present? MR BUTHELEZI MR PURSHOTAM What is your attitude towards the application for amnesty? MR BUTHELEZI MR PURSHOTAM Yes, what is your attitude towards the application for amnesty made by the applicants? MR BUTHELEZI MR PURSHOTAM So, are you saying that the applications for amnesty should be granted or not? MR BUTHELEZI I mean no-one should grant these people amnesty. MR PURSHOTAM Have any of them approached you for forgiveness? MR BUTHELEZI No. MR PURSHOTAM Have any of them written to apologizing for the incident? MR BUTHELEZI No-one. MR PURSHOTAM That is all, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON Do you have any questions? MS VAN DER WALT No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT MR WILKINSON No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILKINSON MR PRINSLOO I have a couple of questions - a few questions. Do you think that attack on that evening was of a political nature? MR BUTHELEZI NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Very well. Thank you very much, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED MR PURSHOTAM Mr Chairman, I now propose to call Sipho Jeremiah Mabaso. SIPHO JEREMIAH MABASO (sworn states) MR PURSHOTAM MR MABASO 42 years old. MR PURSHOTAM Do you have a family with children? MR MABASO Yes, I do. MR PURSHOTAM How many children do you have? MR MABASO I have eight children. MR PURSHOTAM What are their ages? MR MABASO The first born is 22 years old, the second born is 18 years old, third born is 16 years old, the fourth born is 12 years old, the fifth one is 8 years old, the sixth one is 7 years old, the seventh one is 4 years old and the eighth one is 1 year old. MR PURSHOTAM What was your job at the time of this incident? MR MABASO I was a driver, a long distance taxi driver from Durban to Johannesburg. MR PURSHOTAM Have you worked since the date of this incident? MR MABASO No I was no longer able to work. Even my doctor did confirm that I could not work any more because I had been severely injured. MR PURSHOTAM What injuries did you suffer? MR MABASO MR PURSHOTAM How long were you in hospital? MR MABASO I stayed for five months. MR PURSHOTAM Was the treatment rendered to you in hospital successful? MR MABASO Yes, it was successful but it was very difficult because I was in so much pain but they did succeed and they also told my wife to keep on looking after me, even after I was discharged. MR PURSHOTAM Are you still suffering from the effects of the injury - up to the present day? MR MABASO MR PURSHOTAM You heard Mr Zulu relate to the Committee, the facts of the incident in the bus. Without repeating what he told the Committee, is there anything that you wish to add about the incident? MR MABASO Just immediately after that, I left and I was heading home. Immediately after parking I was just talking to other people and I saw this bus coming. I ran towards the bus and I boarded the bus. It was quite full and I was with other people too. The bus drove along the road. It went around picking other people. It even went over the Umgeni river and picked people up from there also. It went up to Red Hill until we got to a bus-stop where it picked more people. I was standing right behind the driver because the bus was very full. Now, I grew up as a herd boy. And I grew up as an orphan, I do not have any sister, brothers or parents. I grew up at my aunts place. When I grew up I was always taught that I should not do anything silly. I was always taught to behave myself, behave in an orderly manner. Now at that time, I faced so much difficulty, I decided to come to Johannesburg to work and I worked for a White person. I worked for four years, then I went to work at the flats. MR PURSHOTAM Do you think that the attack on the bus could possibly be construed as a political attack? MR MABASO I cannot explain anything because I do not know anything about politics. I grew up in non-political environment, I know nothing about politics. MR PURSHOTAM What is your attitude towards the applications for amnesty? MR MABASO Now, I think they deserve to stay in prison, they deserve to be incarcerated so that their families should suffer as much as our families have suffered because when they get out - it is difficult for them in prison, now they want to be reunited with their families. What about us, what about those died and left their families? What about the families of the deceased? What about the children of the deceased? What about my children, what if I had died, what would have happened to my children? Who could they have asked forgiveness from had I died? MR PURSHOTAM Have any of the applicants approached you and asked for forgiveness personally? MR MABASO MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PURSHOTAM MS VAN DER WALT No questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILKINSON Mr Mabaso, did you instruct your attorney, Mr Purshotam, that if the applicants consented to Judgment - this is now in the civil case - then you would not oppose the application for amnesty? MR MABASO want them to be forgiven because they did this intentionally. Because now, they cannot bring me back to a state where I was before. MR WILKINSON Just a quick indulgence your honour. MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR WILKINSON Mr Chairman? MR BRINK INTERPRETER MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON Well, it may a convenient stage to take a short adjournment so that this matter can be resolved amongst yourselves and copies made available to everybody concerned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR PURSHOTAM ...[inaudible] Constance Msoni. CONSTANCE MSONI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman. Are you the mother of Duke Msoni who was the driver of the bus on this particular day? MRS MSONI MR PURSHOTAM What was his age at that time? MRS MSONI At that time, I think it was about 24 or 25. MR PURSHOTAM Did you identify his body after the incident? MRS MSONI I beg yours? MR PURSHOTAM Did you identify his body at the mortuary? MRS MSONI Yes. MR PURSHOTAM How had he died? MRS MSONI MR PURSHOTAM MRS MSONI I think so. MR PURSHOTAM Did he support you while he worked? MRS MSONI He was doing everything, supporting me, supporting the kids. MR PURSHOTAM How many children did he have? MRS MSONI Two, about two. MR PURSHOTAM And what are their ages? MRS MSONI Age? MR PURSHOTAM Age yes, age? MRS MSONI MR PURSHOTAM And who is supporting them at the moment? MRS MSONI I am supporting and no husband. MR PURSHOTAM How do you support yourself? MRS MSONI MR PURSHOTAM MRS MSONI MR PURSHOTAM What is your attitude to the application for amnesty made by the applicants? Do you think they should be given amnesty? MRS MSONI MR PURSHOTAM MRS MSONI MR PURSHOTAM Should I repeat? INTERPRETER She can hear. Yes, you can repeat the questions. MR PURSHOTAM The question is, do you think that the applicants should be granted amnesty? MRS MSONI Absolutely not. MR PURSHOTAM Why do you say that? MRS MSONI MR PURSHOTAM Have any of them approached you to ask for forgiveness? MRS MSONI No, no-one came to me. MR PURSHOTAM That is all, Mr Chairman. MRS MSONI MR PURSHOTAM Yes, please go ahead. MRS MSONI MR PURSHOTAM Is there anything else that you wish to communicate to the Committee? MRS MSONI No English translation. MR PURSHOTAM Thank you very much Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON Are there any questions to be put to this ...[inaudible] MS VAN DER WALT No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT MR WILKINSON No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILKINSON MR PRINSLOO No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO ADV DE JAGER How many children have you got? MRS MSONI I beg yours? ADV DE JAGER How many children have you got? MRS MSONI ADV DE JAGER Three children. What are their ages? MRS MSONI What are their? ADV DE JAGER How old are they? MRS MSONI One is 20, one 31 and another one is 25 and the last one is 16. ADV DE JAGER MRS MSONI Yes. ADV DE JAGER Are you married? MRS MSONI Widow. ADV DE JAGER Widow? MRS MSONI Yes. ADV DE JAGER MRS MSONI No. ADV DE JAGER He had no children or did he have children? MRS MSONI He was helping me. ADV DE JAGER The deceased, did he have any children? MRS MSONI Yes. ADV DE JAGER Three? MRS MSONI Yes. ADV DE JAGER The eldest? MRS MSONI I beg yours? ADV DE JAGER The oldest one? MRS MSONI The eldest one? ADV DE JAGER Yes, how old his he? MRS MSONI I think about - I think 13 now. ADV DE JAGER 13? MRS MSONI 13. ADV DE JAGER 18? CHAIRPERSON 13. ADV DE JAGER Oh, 13. MRS MSONI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Can that be right? I thought he was - your son who died was about 24 or 25 years old. MRS MSONI Yes. CHAIRPERSON And you say that his eldest child is now 13 years old. MRS MSONI CHAIRPERSON You say the eldest child is about 10 now? MRS MSONI Yes. CHAIRPERSON And the other children? MRS MSONI MS KHAMPEPE Mrs Msoni, are you referring to the children that you stated as having been born in 1988 and 1984, are those the children of the deceased? MRS MSONI Yes. ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON ADV DE JAGER In 1990? CHAIRPERSON In 1990. ADV DE JAGER 18. Thank you. MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON Are there any questions to be asked at this stage? MS VAN DER WALT No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT MR WILKINSON No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILKINSON MR PRINSLOO No questions. MR PURSHOTAM Mr Chairman, I now propose to call William Lwambo. MR WILLIAM LWAMBO (sworn states) MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Lwambo, are you the father of deceased Jabulani Lwambo? MR LWAMBO Yes, I am. MR PURSHOTAM Did Jabulani die in the incident where a bus was shot at? MR LWAMBO Yes. MR PURSHOTAM Did he support you while he worked? MR LWAMBO Yes. He was my first born. MR PURSHOTAM How old was he at the time of his death? MR LWAMBO 27 years old. MR PURSHOTAM Did he have any children? MR LWAMBO Yes, he had two kids. MR PURSHOTAM MR LWAMBO No-one. MR PURSHOTAM Who is supporting you at the moment? MR LWAMBO MR PURSHOTAM What is your attitude towards the applications for amnesty before this Committee? MR LWAMBO MR PURSHOTAM Have any of the applicants approached you and asked for forgiveness? MR LWAMBO Not even a single day from September 1991, no-one came and apologised. MR PURSHOTAM MR LWAMBO No. MR PURSHOTAM Have they written any letters to you asking for forgiveness? MR LWAMBO No letter was written to me. MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON Any questions to put to this witness? MS VAN DER WALT No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT MR WILKINSON No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILKINSON MR PRINSLOO No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO MS KHAMPEPE How old were the children of the deceased, the two children that you have mentioned? MR LWAMBO One is seven years old, one is six years old. MS KHAMPEPE MR LWAMBO CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Lwambo, thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman. I now propose to call Zithulele Doyesa. ZITHULELE DOYESA (sworn states) MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell the surname? MR PURSHOTAM The surname is spelt D-O-Y-E-S-A. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR PURSHOTAM Mr Doyesa, is it correct that your father was on the bus on the day of the incident and died as a result of the injuries which he sustained? MR DOYESA That is correct. MR PURSHOTAM What was the name of your father? MR DOYESA He was Pukuese Doyesa. MR PURSHOTAM How old was he at the time of the incident? MR DOYESA He was born in 1930, in October 1930. ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON Number 15 of the injured. ADV DE JAGER Oh, the injured. MR DOYESA No English translation. MR PURSHOTAM Is it correct that your father did not die on the spot but died later in hospital? MR DOYESA That is true. MR PURSHOTAM How many brothers and sisters do you have? MR DOYESA MR PURSHOTAM And did your father support any of you at the time of the incident? MR DOYESA We were also working. My brother was working and I was also working. We were maintaining him at the time but he was still working. Then I was maintaining him at the time of his death. MR PURSHOTAM Did your father support your mother at the time of the incident? MR DOYESA That is correct. MR PURSHOTAM So, are you saying that your father would have given up employment very soon after the date of the incident, had he lived? MR DOYESA I think so. I think that was the case because he was about to get his pension. MR PURSHOTAM What is your attitude to the applications for amnesty before this Committee? MR DOYESA The way I hear them expressing themselves, there is absolutely no way that I can forgive them because they show no remorse whatsoever. They just show that they had contempt for us and they did this purposely - they planned it. MR PURSHOTAM Have any of them approached you and asked for forgiveness, today or yesterday? MR DOYESA There is no-one who ever came to me asking for forgiveness. MR PURSHOTAM Have any of them written letters to you, asking for forgiveness? MR DOYESA MR PURSHOTAM That is all Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PURSHOTAM MS VAN DER WALT No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT MR WILKINSON Mr Doyesa, when did your father die? MR DOYESA He died in 1994, May on the 26th. MR WILKINSON Do you know what was the cause of his death? MR DOYESA Yes, I do know. MR WILKINSON What was the cause? MR DOYESA That was subsequent to the attack that we are talking about now. He got paralysed thereafter. His left foot was no longer working and he continued working but one day when he was going to work, he could not walk properly and a car hit him because he could no longer walk properly or fast after the accident or after the attack. He was killed by being hit by a car. MR WILKINSON Did you or your family file a claim against the person driving the motorcar? MR DOYESA Yes, we did but the case is still on. We are still attending MR WILKINSON So Doyesa, if any of the applicants had shown remorse, would you have forgiven them? MR DOYESA Yes, I would have been prepared to forgive but I hear the manner in which they address the Commission, as well as the manner in which they present their story. They show no remorse whatsoever. MR WILKINSON No further questions. Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILKINSON MR PRINSLOO No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO JUDGE NGOEPE What was the cause of the paralysis in his leg? Was it the injury sustained on that day or was it something else? MR DOYESA Yes, it was subsequent to the attack that took place. He got injured during this attack when they were being shot. He was shot behind the ear and the bullet went and got stuck in the nose. He was also shot on his foot - that this the leg. Thereafter he could not be able to walk properly and he could not walk fast. JUDGE WILSON What work was he doing? MR DOYESA He was working at NCP at Umgeni. JUDGE WILSON Doing what? MR DOYESA They were mixing concrete - they were mixing beer. Apparently he was working at the brewery. They were making ingredients for home-brewed beer. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR PURSHOTAM No Mr Chairman, that is all. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PURSHOTAM. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED MR PURSHOTAM Mr Chairman, I now propose to call Patricia Mbatha. MRS PATRICIA MBATHA (sworn states) MR PURSHOTAM Mrs Mbatha, are you the wife of Stanley Mbatha, the person who died in the incident? MRS MBATHA Yes, I am the wife. MR PURSHOTAM Did he die on the spot or later in hospital? MRS MBATHA MR PURSHOTAM How old was he at the time of the incident? MRS MBATHA In 1990, he was 33 years old. MR PURSHOTAM I should have asked you this before - but what was his name? MRS MBATHA Stanley Mbatha. MR PURSHOTAM Where did he work at the time of this incident? MRS MBATHA Railway, at Umbelo. MR PURSHOTAM Did you visit him in hospital? MRS MBATHA MR PURSHOTAM What kind of injuries did he suffer, do you know? MRS MBATHA He was shot in his stomach. MR PURSHOTAM Do you have any children? MRS MBATHA Yes, I have two kids. When he died, the first born was 10 years old, the second one was six years old. MR PURSHOTAM And was he supporting you and the children at the time? MRS MBATHA Yes, me and the kids and his mother. MR PURSHOTAM Who is supporting them at the moment? MRS MBATHA MR PURSHOTAM What is your attitude to the application for amnesty which is before this Committee? MRS MBATHA MR PURSHOTAM Have any of them approached you and asked for forgiveness? MRS MBATHA No, no-one. MR PURSHOTAM Did anyone write a letter to you, asking for forgiveness? MRS MBATHA No-one. MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PURSHOTAM MS VAN DER WALT No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT MR WILKINSON No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILKINSON MR PRINSLOO No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Mrs Mbatha, thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman. I now propose to call Patrick Gele. ADV DE JAGER Mr Chairman, could I ask whether something could be done about ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON Yes ...[inaudible] MR PATRICK GELE (sworn states) MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman. MR PURSHOTAM How hold are you, Mr Gele? MR GELE MR PURSHOTAM Were you on the bus on the day of the incident? MR GELE That is correct. MR PURSHOTAM MR GELE There is nothing more I can say as far as the accident or the attack is concerned. I also lost consciousness. MR PURSHOTAM What injuries did you suffer as a result of the attack? MR GELE CHAIRPERSON [inaudible] MR PURSHOTAM Could you merely tell the Committee what kind of injuries you suffered, without displaying the injuries? MR GELE MR PURSHOTAM Yes, what is wrong with that leg? MR GELE MR PURSHOTAM How many children do you have? MR GELE I have three children. MR PURSHOTAM And what are their ages? MR GELE One is 8 years old, one is 12 and one is 4 years old. MR PURSHOTAM How are your children supported at the moment? MR GELE MR PURSHOTAM Were you working at the time of the incident? MR GELE I was working. MR PURSHOTAM Where were you working? MR GELE I was working at Umgeni. MR PURSHOTAM And what was your job? MR GELE I was a ...[inaudible] MR PURSHOTAM Are you saying you were a labourer? MR GELE I was a labourer. MR PURSHOTAM What is your attitude to the amnesty applications which are before this Committee? MR GELE MR PURSHOTAM So, are you in favour of the applications or not? MR GELE I oppose the application. MR PURSHOTAM Have any of the applicants approached you and asked for forgiveness? MR GELE No, they never came to me to ask for forgiveness. MR PURSHOTAM Have they written any letters to you, asking for forgiveness? MR GELE Absolutely not. MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON Questions? MS VAN DER WALT No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT MR WILKINSON Mr Gele, are you also known as Sipho? MR GELE That is correct. MR WILKINSON Thank you Mr Chairman. MR PRINSLOO No questions. JUDGE NGOEPE Were you injured in your leg - the leg that you wanted to expose to us? MR GELE That is correct. It is from my leg upwards to my thigh. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you remain immobile for some time at the hospital? MR GELE JUDGE NGOEPE After how long did - were you able to walk again? MR GELE JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Right Mr Gele, thank you very much. MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON Can my remarks be interpreted please, in Zulu? Do you close your case Mr Purshotam? MR PURSHOTAM Yes, Mr Chairman. Those are the only witnesses I wish to call. CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink, is there any or are there any witnesses you propose calling? MR BRINK MR PURSHOTAM Mr Chairman, may I intervene and maybe ask you if we would be afforded an opportunity of bringing evidence before this Committee on affidavit because there are numerous people with who - with whom no contact has yet been established. And if they did know of these hearings, they would have wanted - would have wished to come forward and give evidence. And would it be in order if we made those affidavits available after establishing contact with those individuals? CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may make those affidavits available to us but I would like you to ensure that counsel for the three applicants also received those affidavits. MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Are counsel ready to address? Well Mrs van der Walt, will you begin? MS VAN DER WALT ADDRESSES Evidence was also led on his behalf that before he joined Orde Boerevolk, Mr Piet Rudolph, by means of a video broadcast by the SABC, had declared war and Mr Botha associated himself with the objectives of the Orde Boerevolk. I submit -and you also observed him - that he is a strong leader and a person who will carry through whatever he believes in. In your possession you also have Exhibit A, which is the oath of the Orde Boerevolk and I would like to submit that, that is what Mr Botha believed in. To comply with the requirements of Section 22(a), he had to lead evidence before the Committee that he was a member of supporter of a political organisation and I submit that, that has been ...[intervention] Could you please repeat it? JUDGE NGOEPE My brother is saying to you ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON You omitted the words "publicly known". MS VAN DER WALT I would submit that the Orde Boerevolk was known, because when Piet Rudolph made the declaration of war, he did so in the name of the Orde Boerevolk. And I submit that he acted on behalf of that organisation when he believed, bona fide, that he was involved in a political struggle and the political struggle was not only aimed at a particular organisation, but also at the then governing party, the National Party. I submit that those requirements posed by Section 22(a), that his evidence shows that he complies with these requirements. The same goes for Section 22(d). He took the oath - and also in respect of the declaration of war by Piet Rudolph. In - as far as his act is concerned, he believed that as member of the Orde Boerevolk, he was performing his duty as a member of the Orde Boerevolk against the Government and the PAC. It was clear from the evidence that the Orde Boerevolk and more particularly, Mr Botha who acted as a member of that organisation, that they wanted to send a message to the Government that war had been declared and that if any action was to be taken by organised bodies and organisations, that counter-measures and counter-attacks could be expected. And that is what happened on that particular day. It is so, that shots were fired at a bus full of innocent passengers. The evidence was led today before you and that is an unfortunate situation but at the same time that very morning, members of the PAC perpetrated an attack against innocent people. I submit to you that Mr Botha, in his evidence and the cross-examination, as well as the questions put to him in respect of this act - I submit that he performed well under cross-examination and that he explained to the Committee why that particular action was taken. In the same way, Section 22(f) where the Act provides: "that any person - any person referred to in Paragraphs (a) and (d), who on reasonable grounds believed that he or she was acting in the course and scope of his or her duties and within the scope of his or her express or implied authority" I submit that seen in the light of the fact that he pleaded guilty - that he made no bones about his involvement and that he came to this Honourable Committee - he came to tell his story - the fact that he said that he was sorry and that he knew that innocent people had been injured and had died, I would submit that the Committee should take into consideration that he acted under the banner of the Orde Boerevolk and in their name and that he believed that he was involved in a war. I submit that the evidence led by the Legal Resources Centre in Durban and placed before you, that the evidence related to injuries, the financial loss suffered by the parties, the Representative of the Legal Resources Centre submitted to you that he would lead evidence which would prove that this was not a politically inspired act. I would like to submit that no such evidence was placed before you today. That is all, thank you. MR PRINSLOO I would like to submit that the applicant in these circumstances, should be granted amnesty as set out in the indictment, should be granted amnesty on all these charge, seven charges of murder, 27 charges of attempted murder and then a contravention of the Weapons Act, possession of a FN as well as possession of ammunition and teargas grenade. I may also mention that a page or two is missing but I believe that this page has now arrived and that will be made available to the Commission. This - that will explain more fully what our position is. Thank you Chairperson. MR WILKINSON In Section 22(b) the Act stipulates certain criteria, six criteria to explain what is meant by an act committed with a political objective. Eight of these criteria independently and in the light of the circumstances of the case must be considered. During the trial Judge Hugo also said the following during sentence" It is so that the Act constituted a grave human rights violation ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON MR WILKINSON If I can take the Commission back to the trial court where Judge Hugo said the following: He also says that: "We accept that Botha gave the ultimate order to shoot". "In such cases, it must be recognised that there may be little or no explanation as to why a particular target has been selected for attack and I do not consider that the absence of such explanation is decisive against the act being political". He continues: "I therefore ...[inaudible] relevant to consider whether the act was one which could have been regarded as within the scope of the campaign". ADV DE JAGER Could you please give us that quotation? Could you please give us that reference? MR WILKINSON JUDGE NGOEPE MR WILKINSON JUDGE WILSON CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MS VAN DER WALT MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON [inaudible] INTERPRETER MR PRINSLOO No, not the AK47. The AK applied to the third applicant. ADV DE JAGER So, all the charges up to charge 35? MR PRINSLOO All the charges except the last charge regarding the grenade and only one charge regarding the FN rifle and the ammunition. That is all Mr Chairperson. MR WILKINSON JUDGE WILSON 5037,62 rounds, who was found guilty of that? INTERPRETER The microphone is not on. MR PRINSLOO JUDGE WILSON ...[inaudible] MR PRINSLOO INTERPRETER The microphone is not on, the interpreter cannot hear. JUDGE WILSON And none of the 20mm rounds. And the 7,62, was that only for the AK? INTERPRETER The microphone is not on. MR PRINSLOO I beg your pardon. We are restricted to ...[no sound] None. CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink, do you propose addressing? MR BRINK MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman. It appears that Section 20 of the Act sets out the requirements which need to be satisfied before an application for amnesty may be granted. The first three Sub-Sections are of relevance in this regard. The first sub-section deals with two important provisions and both are contained in Sub-Section 21(b) and they read as follows: "The act, omission or offence to which the application relates is an act associated with a political objective committed in the course of the conflict of the past, in accordance with the provisions of Sub-Sections 2 and 3. And (c), paragraph (c) states that: "the applicant has made a full disclosure of all the relevant facts". It may be instructive to deal with what is meant by the term "associated with a political objective" first. The Act has given guidance in this regard. And the guidance is contained in Sub-Section 3 and Sub-Section 3 has been divided up into 6 sub-paragraphs. The first one says that: "in determining whether it is an act of a political objective, the motive of the person who committed the act, omission or offence, shall be taken into account". "AN OATH THAT I SHALL COMMIT MYSELF TO THE LIBERATION STRUGGLE OF THE BOER PEOPLE". It did not matter to them what political affiliation those Black people followed. It was sufficient for their purposes that the people that they were going to attack, had Black skins - full stop. So much for the motive of the attack. In fact I have skipped a section I should have gone on to sub section B and that is the context in which the act, omission or offence occurred. And in particular whether the act, omission or offence was committed in the course of or as a part of a political uprising, disturbance or event or in reaction thereto. I think one has to look at the events of the morning before one can deal with a reaction. And the Act is clear, it has to be a political uprising, disturbance or event. CHAIRPERSON I think if you remember the evidence, none of them saw these assailants wearing T-shirts, they went by the announcement on the radio and TV that these people wore particular clothes. MR PURSHOTAM Yes, I agree Mr Chairman. They did go by what was announced over the media and the conclusion they came to was that because the attackers were Black and wore PAC T-shirts and the victims were White, that per se was sufficient for them to conclude that the threatened uprising of the Black people was imminent. JUDGE WILSON MR PURSHOTAM Yes. JUDGE WILSON MR PURSHOTAM JUDGE WILSON MR PURSHOTAM With respect Mr Commissioner, I would call that and those individuals, common criminals. CHAIRPERSON MR PURSHOTAM ADV DE JAGER Could an event be political as well as criminal or both? MR PURSHOTAM "Against whom is the attack launched - against what is the attack launched - the target". We now deal with the next Sub-Section and that is: "Whether the act, omission or offence was committed in the execution of an order of, or on behalf of or with the approval of the organisation, institution, liberation movement or body of which the person who committed the act was a member, an agent or supporter". Sub-Section (f) ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE MR PURSHOTAM JUDGE NGOEPE But they knew when they issued that directive, they knew that it is serious. They knew that it was not trivial. They were quite aware of that but notwithstanding the fact that they knew that it was not anything trivial, they issued a general policy to say, do it. MR PURSHOTAM JUDGE NGOEPE MR PURSHOTAM JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry Mr Purshotam, the directive that for every one White there must be 10 Blacks killed, did not come through the radio. What came through the radio was the coverage of the incident that had happened at the beach but according to the applicants, as they joined the OB they were taught about the strategies and objectives and one of them was that for every one White killed there must be 10 killed - 10 Blacks killed. That is what they were told as they joined the organisation. MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that whatever appeared on television cannot be regarded as an order as required by Sub-Section (b)? MR PURSHOTAM May I now proceed to Sub-Section (f)? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PURSHOTAM Thank you. ADV DE JAGER ...[inaudible] What about approval - approved by the organisation? The day after the killings, it was - if I remember correctly - there was evidence that they approved of it later, on the day after when Botha reported it to them. MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON Nobody? MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON Except the evidence of the man who gave the order and then said others approved it. MR PURSHOTAM JUDGE WILSON MR PURSHOTAM Well ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER JUDGE WILSON You see, if he was told when he joins the organisation that this is the policy of the organisation - as my brother put it to you - does he then have to go and get authority to carry out their policy? MR PURSHOTAM JUDGE WILSON Or the ...[inaudible] Or on behalf of. MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] your argument. As I understand your argument, there was no evidence about any order, all there was, was a policy. ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Nobody has come forward to say they approved it, beyond the man who gave the order himself, then said somebody approved it. Now, is that enough? MR PURSHOTAM JUDGE NGOEPE MR PURSHOTAM JUDGE NGOEPE MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON Proceed. MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman. Sub-paragraph (f) deals with the relationship between the act, omission or offence and the political objective pursued and in particular the directness and proximity of the relationship and the proportionality of the act, omission or offence to the objective pursued. JUDGE WILSON Are you not going to address us on the proportionality of the Act? Here we have, as I understand the evidence, the desire of the Orde Boerevolk to show that they objected to White people being killed. So rather than make a statement or anything, they slaughtered 10 - 7 innocent people surely is out of all proportion to what they hoped to achieve? MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON MR PURSHOTAM Sub-Section (f) 2, says that: "Any act, omission or offence committed by any person referred to Sub-Section 2, "The act, an act is not included within the ambit of Sub-Section 3, if it was out of personal malice, ill-will or spite directed towards against the victim of the acts committed". CHAIRPERSON MR PURSHOTAM Mr Chairman, the individuals who are before this Committee are not those individuals who committed those acts on that particular morning. They may be in a position to argue along those lines, that they had a malice White people. JUDGE NGOEPE MR PURSHOTAM JUDGE WILSON MR PURSHOTAM MR BRINK Mr Chairman, I apologise for the interruption. There was another application that was due to start today but I very much doubt ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Yes. ...[inaudible] MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON And will you arrange with the authorities to ensure that your client is here as well. ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Yes, do carry on. MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman. Sub-Section 2 of Section 20 deals with individuals and organisations which were involved in political acts and what is referred to in the Act as a political struggle. My learned friends have apprised this Committee that the applicants intend basing their applications on provisions in Sub-Section (a), (d) and (f), so it may be instructive to look at those provisions and determine whether the applicants fall within the ambit of those Sub-Sections. Sub-Section 2 starts off by saying that: "The act must be an act associated with a political objective, advised, planned, directed, commanded, ordered or committed by Sub-Section (a). Any member or supporter of a publicly known political organisation or liberation movement on behalf of, or in support of such struggle or movement, bona fide, in furtherance of a political struggle waged by such organisation or movement against the State or any former State or another publicly known political organisation or liberation movement". The acts which are committed by members of that political organisation must be directed against: "the State or any former State or another publicly known political organisation of liberation movement". "the State, a former State or a publicly known organisation of liberation movement". The next Sub-Section that was relied on, is Sub-Section (d). And that reads as follows: "Any employee or member of a publicly known political organisation or liberation movement, in the course and scope of his or her duties and within the scope of his or her express or implied authority directed against the State or any former State of any publicly known organisation or liberation movement, engaged in a political struggle against that political organisation or liberation movement or against members of the security forces of the State or any former State, or members or supporters of such publicly known political organisation or liberation movement and which was committed bona fide in furtherance of the said struggle". "in the course and scope of his or her duties" "the express or implied authority" "the State or a publicly known political organisation or a liberation movement" against whom the attack has to be carried out. And then reliance was placed on Sub-Section (f) ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON MR PURSHOTAM It is conceivable to have that interpretation. CHAIRPERSON But not for Botha? MR PURSHOTAM Definitely not for Botha. But I would urge the Committee not to put that interpretation on those provisions because ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON As I understand your argument that in this case here, the act that was perpetrated was not against the State or any political organisation, but against the victims. MR PURSHOTAM CHAIRPERSON You heard their evidence in which they said, their aim was to draw the attention of the State, the Government, that the Government was traveling along wrong lines. MR PURSHOTAM ADV DE JAGER I - would that also be the case if a bomb was planted on the border and farmers were killed? MR PURSHOTAM JUDGE NGOEPE MR PURSHOTAM JUDGE NGOEPE CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PURSHOTAM Thank you Mr Chairman. The last Sub-Section on which I would like to address the Committee, is Sub-Section 21(c), which states that "The applicant has made a full disclosure of all the relevant facts" CHAIRPERSON Which one? MR PURSHOTAM This morning while I was leading the victims and their dependents, I asked of each and every one of them, have you been approached by any one of the applicants in this hall today or yesterday, to ask forgiveness. I belaboured the point, it was mentioned eight times but up to now none of the applicants have cared to approach CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink, is there anything you wish to say? MR BRINK ADDRESSES that the events of that morning, when the PAC people attacked the Whites near the beach-front, were events which can be described as political as contemplated in Section 20, Sub-Section 3(b). Unfortunately, we do not have a constitution of Orde Boerevolk. We do not know how many members there are of Orde Boerevolk. All we do know, that a certain Mr Piet Rudolph was the founder of this organisation. And all we know is that the applicants were members of a cell in the Northern parts of this Province. But what they could have done to bring this thing more within the political ambit of what they had in mind, was to have sort out the PAC. Sort them out in the sense of looking for them and bombing their offices if need be, or even going as far as the top and assassinating the chief of the PAC - as ...[inaudible] as that might be. They had the power to do it. The reason they did not shoot the people in the taxi was because they were terrified that had they done so, they might well have been surrounded and killed, -themselves. So they the taxi alone - they now think what shall be do? They go to the garage and have cooldrinks and unfortunately, the Putco bus comes past and they decide to follow it and they commit what can only be described as a cowardly, cold-blooded mass murder. Nothing more, nothing less. And I agree, with respect for my learned friend for the victims, that they appear not to have shown remorse. It is true that the applicant Marais, indicated that he had severed all connections with the right-wing but the point is, that is ex-post factor. What was his attitude and the attitude of his co-applicants at the time? CHAIRPERSON Do you wish to reply? MS VAN DER WALT JUDGE NGOEPE MS VAN DER WALT Mr Marais. JUDGE NGOEPE Was that Mr Marais? MS VAN DER WALT Mr Marais. JUDGE WILSON The note that I have is that we were told it was Mr Marais at page 157 and 158. [no sound] MS VAN DER WALT "regarding the steps of the National Party Government, its accomplices who support it and the ANC - just to combat those and the Communist Party with all the means at my disposal" JUDGE NGOEPE MS VAN DER WALT I, I ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE MS VAN DER WALT I agree with you but now one takes it further. It was, and this was always the case - the policy of the PAC - their policy was opposed to White people, White people who were dominating and as I understand it throughout the years no White person has been a member of the PAC. JUDGE NGOEPE MS VAN DER WALT JUDGE WILSON MS VAN DER WALT MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO State v Messina and others 1990 (4) SA 709 (AD) judgment of acting Appeal Judge Friedman as he was at the time, page 718, letter C "In respect of the fifth finding, it needs to be mentioned that the evidence does not reveal that the appellants were mere puppets who were obeying the orders of their superiors of the ANC without thought or questioning. They were under the general command of their leaders. They themselves identified as targets for assassination, people whom they considered in accordance of ANC policy, to be appropriate victims" With respect, these people also identified suitable targets for the purposes of suicide. The Act was accepted as one which had a political motive and that is how it was implemented. With respect, this is the case here as well. Here Mr Botha was acting as the leader of the cell, such as the person I referred to acted. The people who were killed in this case - there was a policeman who was described as a person who would have killed other members of the ANC or Black people. There was a Mr Lukele who had a tendency to kill people or could tend to do so, that was analogous. So this is a matter of a consequence of a previous act. In Exhibit A which has been submitted to the Committee says that: "I shall ensure that commands that I give in the course of the achievement of the above-mentioned ideals are carried out". So, I submit that there was a full disclosure and as my colleague said and I associate with it, I say that amnesty should be granted to the applicant. Thank you. MR WILKINSON what has been submitted, should be approached holistically and objectively. JUDGE NGOEPE MR WILKINSON The Act specifically refers to criteria. JUDGE NGOEPE Yes, not requirements. MR WILKINSON Yes, criteria, guidelines. JUDGE NGOEPE MR WILKINSON INTERPRETER MR WILKINSON CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS