amntrans 1, AMNESTY HEARING 1997-03-17 EAST LONDON 1 K E THOBA, W THOMPSON, J W MAKOM https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54709&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/el/el1.htm JUDGE MALL Mr Brink, are we ready to proceed? MR BRINK Yes, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman the first application is that of K E Thoba, W Thompson, J W Makom. They are asking for amnesty in respect of various accounts of assault and crimen injuria. They are present but I think they should be seated at the applicants' table. They are represented by Mr Hole, who is a local attorney. I understand that the applicants are Mr Thoba, sitting at the right hand side of the table which is virtually on your left, Mr Thompson is in the middle and Mr Makom is on the left hand side of the table. Mr Chairman in regard to the victims, I understand that Mr Simandla is present, he is one of the victims and also Ms Msutwana. There are two other victims, Ms Maqana and Ms Nomoy, who were involved in various incidents. All efforts to trace these two people have been unsuccessful and therefore they are not here today. Mr Hole might like to proceed. JUDGE MALL Yes Mr Hole. MR HOLE Thank you Mr Chairman. May I ask, before I begin the case for the first applicant Mr Chairman to request to make a few amendments to the application. JUDGE MALL Certainly. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 2 ADDRESS MR HOLE In respect of the first applicant, Mr K E Thoba, I wish to ask for an amendment to include a further victim, namely Ms N Maqoma. The Committee will recall that he made application only in respect of three victims. JUDGE MALL Would you spell the name of that victim please? MR HOLE It is spelt M-A-Q-O-M-A Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON Was she the victim in respect of the trial that was heard at Alice? The second victim there? JUDGE MALL Yes. MR HOLE In respect of the second applicant, Mr Thompson I wish to amend his application by adding a further victim, namely Ms N Maqoma. She is the same person that has been referred to in the previous amendment. And in respect of the third applicant, Mr J W Makom, I wish to make application to amend and include application for immunity in respect of the assault and torture of Miss N Msuthwana. Mr Chairman the reason for this late amendment is that in respect of Mr Thoba he was acquitted in respect of the assault on Miss Maqoma, and on further discussions we had agreed that we should ask the Committee for amnesty in respect of that assault as well, although he was acquitted in respect thereof. In respect of Mr Thompson the same applies, Mr Chairman. In respect of Mr Makom he was not even charged with the assault on Ms Msuthwana, but he does wish to lay himself open to this Commission and ask for amnesty in respect of that one as well. Thank you, Mr Chairman. JUDGE MALL Are the applicants going to give evidence in Xhosa? MR HOLE Mr Chairman I have discussed this with them and Mr Brink next to me and to facilitate matters I propose to read. I have I made their statements in the form of affidavits which are available for the Commissioners as well. I propose to read EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 3 MR THOBA them for them and they are available to answer in Xhosa, whatever questions the Commission might want to put to them. JUDGE MALL Yes. MS KHAMPEPE Are you proposing to start with Mr Thoba, Mr Hole? KWANALE ENOCH THOBA (sworn states) W THOMPSON (sworn states) J W MAKOM (sworn states) JUDGE MALL Yes you may proceed. MR HOLE I have before me statements prepared by these applicants. Mr Chairman, I beg leave to hand them up to the Commission. JUDGE MALL Yes, you may hand them in. For convenience, we will identify these documents as follows The sworn statement by Mr Thoba to be Exhibit A; by Mr Thompson to be Exhibit B; and the one by Mr Makom as Exhibit C. MR HOLE May I proceed? JUDGE MALL Yes please. MR HOLE Thank you Mr Chairman. This is the statement prepared in support of an application by the first applicant, Mr Kwanale Enoch Thoba. It is in the form of an affidavit. Mr Chairman it reads as follows: "The facts deposed to hereunder are within my personal knowledge unless stated otherwise or the context otherwise indicates." Then he recounts his personal circumstances. He says: "I am 45 years old and married. I have three children, the eldest whom is doing standard seven. My last born is still too young to go to school. I have been a member of the Police Force since the 6th of EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 4 MR THOBA June 1979. I attended training at the Police College Hammanskraal for six months and was on graduation attached to the Uniform Branch of the Ciskei Police. After a number of years in the Uniform Branch I was transferred to the CID where I also worked for a number of years until I was transferred to the Elite Unit of the Ciskei Police. This is where I served until the military coup of March, 1990. The offences of which I was convicted and in respect of which I now seek amnesty were committed whilst attached to this unit. During 1992 I was arrested and sentenced in separate cases for crimes involving assaults on political detainees. I am now serving a period of ten years imprisonment for these offences. Although the offences I have made myself guilty of did not include murder of persons, as has happened in security related cases throughout the country, they are nonetheless very serious ones and for which I wish to express remorse and if possible ask forgiveness. I have been involved in assaults and torture of political prisoners in circumstances where wisdom and good sense should have told me to act otherwise. In order to understand why deeds like these were possible to perform perhaps one should look at the history of this region to be able to place things and understand them in proper perspective." Then he deals with the independence of the national states and the relations between the Ciskei and the Transkei. "As part of the wider scheme of apartheid Transkei became independent in 1976. Ciskei was to follow in December 1981 EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 5 MR THOBA under the leadership of President Sebe. From the onset Transkei was unhappy about Ciskei being given "independence". Transkei felt that Ciskei should be given to Transkei to realise their dream of a great Xhosa nation. These attitudes strained the relations between the states and these strained relations had far reaching consequences and have a bearing on the case before this Committee." It goes on to deal with the Ciskei state Mr Chairman. He says, "The Ciskei state was a creation of apartheid. To qualify as a country it had to have a population over which it held sovereignty. To achieve this masses of people were displaced and forcibly removed from the so-called black spots and removed to Ciskei. Those who could not be moved to Ciskei by promises of a land of milk and honey were moved by the Military and placed in Ciskei. A Secretary for Black Administration and Development wrote in Circular No 25 of 1967: 'It is accepted Government policy that the Bantu are only temporarily resident in the area of the Republic for as long as they offer their labour there. As soon as they become no longer fit in the labour market they are expected to return to their country of origin or the territory of the national unit where they fit. No stone should be left unturned to achieve this settlement in the homelands of non-productive Bantu.' This is a quotation from a book by Brian Lapink, entitled "Apartheid, A History." A priest, Cosmos Desmond, reported of a group that was forcibly removed and settled in Natal. He is quoted: "We found the first arrivals sitting in the bare veld, EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 6 MR THOBA surrounded by their belongings, looking bewildered and utterly lost. A little distance away was a water tank and a pile of folded tents, which the people did no know how to erect. Nothing else." This is also a quotation from the same work. "The scene painted by Father Desmond is true of many cases in Ciskei, especially in Dimbaza. This was the kind of people His Excellency President for Life, Lennox Sebe, was presiding over. Poor displaced and angry people. The Police were caught in this trap especially those falling into the Security Police category. It was only a question of time before more and more brutality was to be unleashed to subdue the brave ones who spoke out against the injustice." Then dealing with the Sebe family Mr Commissioner, Mr Chairman: "If the Ciskei Government was discredited for being an apartheid structure to enforce human suffering it was no less discredited for being an institution of upliftment and enrichment of the Sebe family and those close to them. Lennox Sebe was the Head of State. His other brother was Minister of Transport. The other brother was a Commander General of the combined forces, commanding and holding power over the following: the Army, the Police, the Prisons, the Special Forces, the Traffic Police. He was the most powerful person in Ciskei. He was consulted about and authorised all detentions, under Proclamation R252, and later under the National Security Act of 1982." EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 7 MR THOBA The Committee is at this stage referred to a judgment by His Lordship Mr Justice Pickard in a case of the STATE v SEBE, the reference is quoted in the statement. The judgment, Mr Chairman, is quoted at length and begins at page 16 of their representations. "The sons of Namba and Charles Sebe held ranks in the armed forces as well. It was indeed a Sebe state. During a state function held at the national shrine an unscheduled speaker rose from the ranks of the audience and advanced to the podium and made a speech based on the Scriptures. He prophesied that in the future Charles Sebe would be powerful, even more powerful than the President. The immediate result of this is that the President became fearful of his own brother and proceeded to strip him of his powers. He sidelined him in matters of state and the President's security. In turn Charles Sebe became afraid of the wrath of the President. He feared being detained as he had fallen out of favour." Again the Commission is referred to a judgment by Judge Pickard at specifically page 626. This is Annexure A of the representations, Mr Chairman. "Fear rose in the senior ranks of the police about their possible detentions. The events following the demotion of Mr Charles Sebe were as follows: A. Brig Tamsanqa who had served as Charles Sebe's Deputy, was detained. B. Senior Officers, including Charles Sebe gathered EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 8 MR THOBA around and discussed and questioned the legality of the detention. Suggestions of releasing Tamsanqa by force were made. C. Charles Sebe was detained and charged with terrorism. He was sentenced to 12 years' imprisonment by the Bisho Supreme Court. Again the Committee is referred to Annexure A which is the judgment of Justice Pickard and Annexure B which is an article quoted from the Daily Despatch, entitled 'Charles Sebe Trial Date set at Bisho. Annexure C, Gen Minnaar was also detained.' I am instructed, Mr Chairman, that Gen Minnaar was the side-kick of Gen Sebe. Also the Committee is referred to Annexure D which is an article by the Daily Despatch with the heading 'Sebe Jailed for Twelve Years'. "Soon after the arrest of Charles Sebe his brother, Namba, was also arrested on corruption charges. His son Kamba, was arrested and detained by the Police. Mr Namba Sebe sued the Commissioner of Police for arrest and detention. The Government requested further particulars to the particulars of claim. When he could not supply these the claim was dismissed with costs." The Committee is referred to Annexure E which is the combined summons by Mr Namba Sebe, suing for his son and Annexure F which is the Order of the Supreme Court of Ciskei which dismissed his action with costs. "Charles Sebe was to meet with a similar fate. He sued for arrear salaries. The Government defended the action and asked for further particulars, asking inter alia when and by whom he had been employed as a Major General in the Police Force. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 9 MR THOBA When he could not supply these particulars, his case was also dismissed with costs." Reference is made to Annexure G which is the combined summons, and Annexure H which is the Order of Court, dismissing his action with costs. "To the legal practitioner this might appear to be a run of the mill procedure in civil litigation. To us in the Security Forces this was a clear message that the President meant business. If he could do these things to his flesh and blood ....." Mr Commissioner I think there is a mistake here, but I will proceed. "A further factor was that the wives of his imprisoned and exiled brothers were evicted from their homes. This was believed to be at the instance of the President or he allowed it to happen." Mr Chairman, the Committee is again referred to Annexure I, which is an article by the Daily Despatch at the time, reporting on the eviction of Mrs Namba Sebe and Mrs Charles Sebe from their homes, which was in Tjajo in Ciskei. "Namba Sebe jumped bail and sought refuge in Transkei. Namba and Charles Sebe were tried and convicted of terrorism and sentenced to long terms of imprisonment for terrorism. " This is Namba and Charles Sebe's sons Mr Commissioner. "On the 26th of September 1985 a group of White men raided the maximum security prison in Middeldrift and freed Charles Sebe. This was the worst nightmare of his former juniors, who had whilst he had lost power, acted against him. Charles Sebe was reputedly powerful and influential. It was not known what he EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 10 MR THOBA would do when he was set free. Those who betrayed him had a lot to fear in the line of retribution. Pressure was put on the juniors to find him." Mr Chairman, the Committee is referred to Annexure J which is also an article by a local newspaper, reporting on the armed and violent skipping of Mr Charles Sebe from jail. "On the same day of the escape of Charles Sebe from prison the son of the President and the Commander of the Elite Unit of which we were members Major General Kwane Sebe and his Deputy Colonel Zandasile Waya were abducted. They were drugged and transported to Transkei in the boot of a motor vehicle. The pair had been abducted from the Amatola Hotel in Bisho where Charles Sebe was seen shortly after his escape. It was feared that they were in his hands. What became clear to the Security Forces was that we were dealing with not only with Charles Sebe but also his allies who were sophisticated and capable of out manoeuvering us. There was a state of panic, and pressure was being put on the Security Forces and the Elite Unit in particular to find the President's son alive. Soon after the abduction of the two it was learnt through Intelligence reports that they were kept hostage by the President's brother, Mr Namba Sebe." The Committee, Mr Chairman, is referred to Annexure K, which is an article by a local newspaper, reporting on the abduction and the claim made by Mr Namba Sebe that he was keeping these two hostage. "Soon demands were received for the release of Tony EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 11 MR THOBA Sebe and Kamba Sebe. These were sons of Namba and Charles Sebe respectively who were serving sentences for terrorism in Ciskei. They had been convicted of participation in an attack on a Cabinet member's home, Mr B M Pitje. These were most dangerous times in Ciskei. Days of intrigue and subterfuge. They were made even worse by the apparent free hand the Ciskei state gave to the insurgents ...(indistinct). Soon after the escape of Charles Sebe reports were received that he had joined an organisation, called Illisolomzi, formed by Ben Nomoy and Lent Maqoma, the latter a former member of the parliament in Ciskei. Reports of a guerilla unit under training were received. The Ciskei Government Intelligence fraternity sent W O Sidney Magauwli to infiltrate Illisolomzi. He sent home reports of the training, personnel and plans of Illisolomzi. What was most disturbing about the reports was that the armed units were trained by and with the assistance of the Transkei Defence Force. Pamphlets were distributed in Ciskei by Illisolomzi. One of the pamphlets confirmed that Charles Sebe had become a member of this movement." The Committee is now referred to Annexure L, which is an article by a local newspaper, reporting on the conviction of the sons of Mr Namba and Charles Sebe for terrorism. "The period after the escape of Charles Sebe was met by panic, fear and mass detentions of those perceived to belong to his organisation or were sympathetic to EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 12 MR THOBA its cause. It was in that context that Brig Simandla, Miss Msutwana and Mrs Nomoy were detained and tortured. This is by no means to justify acts of torture and suffering but to try, difficult as it might be, to explain the context in which such acts took place. Miss Msutwana was believed to be connected to Charles Sebe through her sister. Mrs Nomoy's husband was believed to be a member of Illisolomzi. She at that stage had been in hiding in Transkei. Brig Simandla was head of Middeldrift Prison when Charles Sebe was freed. There were reports that a cell key had been lost prior to their escape. There were reports that he had disarmed some of the guards prior to the escape. Whether these reports are true or not we cannot say. They were, however, the basis of his questioning." Then, the applicant, Mr Chairman, goes on to deal with the torture of Brig Simandla. "Soon after the escape of Mr Charles Sebe from Middeldrift Prison, information was received via intelligence sources that Brig Simandla who was head of Middeldrift Prison at the time, had A. Caused or allowed the guards of the perimeter fence to be disarmed on the day of the attack. B. Allowed or made it possible for a guard not to be posted at the tower post on the night of the attack. C. Made it possible for a cell key to be lost some weeks before the escape. This key was used in EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 13 MR THOBA the escape. This information had not been verified and Col Panzi who was acting as the head of the Elite Unit during the abduction of the Officer Commanding and his Deputy, instructed people to question Brig Simandla. The people instructed to do so were myself,( that is Mr Thoba, Mr Chairman), W/O Bojana, Lt Thompson. We proceeded to Tanaga Police Station where Brig Simandla was held and proceeded to question him. During this questioning no assaults were committed nor was the Brigadier manhandled in any manner. Having completed the interrogation we proceeded to Col Panzi to brief him. The summary of our report was that the prisoner was denying all participation in the escape of Charles Sebe. Brig Simandla admitted that no guard was placed at the tower post but said this was because the toilet at the base of the tower was out of order. Lt Thompson, who had been the head of the interrogation, told us that he had been commanded to conduct another interrogation of Brig Simandla. The following day we proceeded from our Bisho offices to Thamaka Police Station to conduct the interrogation. I noticed during interrogation that aside from Lt Thompson, Makom, myself and W/O Bojala, there were also other members of the Security Police from Mdantsane. They also took part in the interrogation. Again Brig Simandla gave us the same replies that he had given the previous day. At this stage the Brigadier was in the interrogation room being interrogated by; (i) myself; (ii) W/O EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 14 MR THOBA Bojala; (iii) W/O Nqandana of the Mdantsane Security; (iv) W/O Swelendao of Mdantsane Security; (v) W/O Shulane of the Mdantsane Security; (vi) Lt Funane of the Mdantsane Security; (vii) Lt Makom; (viii) Lt Thompson. We had known even before commencing this interrogation that we were to put pressure on the Brigadier to answer our questions. This had been talked about amongst us as being the orders from Col Panzi, to get the truth by assaults from the Brigadier, if needs be. When it became apparent that we were not getting any admissions the Brigadier was ordered to undress. Having undressed he was forced onto his stomach and suffocated with an inner tube of a motor vehicle. Pressure was applied to the tube which caused him to suffocate. Whilst this was happening other persons assisted in pressing him down and others held his feet and arms. Other people even sat on his back. This torture carried on for a while and people used to relieve each other and others would go out for fresh air or wash their faces. The object of this was to make the Brigadier confess to having had a hand in the escape and possibly gave us leads to the plotters of the escape who might still be in Ciskei. During the torture Lt Funane and Thompson seemed to be in command of the operation. A cigarette was also used to burn Brig Simandla on his body, in an effort to induce him to speak. W/O Swelendao was the one who applied the cigarette on him. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 15 MR THOBA At some stage during the interrogation Brig Simandla lost consciousness and we took him out of the cell to try and revive him. We feared that he might have been suffocated for too long and would die. Cold water was poured over his body to try and revive him. After a while he came to his senses. We were now all afraid to continue and he was asked to put his clothes on. A report of what had taken place was given to Col Panzi who said we should be careful that the detainee does not die during interrogation. Up to the end of the torture Brig Simandla denied complicity in the springing of Charles Sebe from prison." Then Mr Chairman he proceeds to deal with the torture of Miss Nomtunzi Msutwana. "Miss Msutwana was employed by the Department of Post and Telecommunication and based at Bisho. Miss Msutwana was also one of the persons detained following the escape of Mr Charles Sebe from prison. Her detention was in terms of the National Security Act of Ciskei. Having been taken from her home she was taken for a brief moment to our offices in Bisho where she was informed of her detention. After this she was taken to the Zwelitsha Police District Headquarters for interrogation. I was one of the people selected to interrogate her. On arrival at the District Headquarters she was questioned about her links with Mr Charles Sebe and Illisolomzi. She denied all association with these EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 16 MR THOBA people. During the course of her interrogation Miss Msutwana became tired and refused to answer questions, possibly because some of them were repetitive. When it became clear that no information would voluntarily came from her we gave her treatment, similar to what which had been given to Brig Simandla: (1), she was forced to take her clothes off; (2), a motor car inner tube was pulled around her face to cause her to suffocate; (3), she was forced to lie on her back; (4), a substance known as Sipapatxapa(?) was poured on her thighs and onto her vagina. This caused an itching and irritating tract. Burns resulted from this; (5), when these things were done to her, some of us would press her down to overcome any resistance. Others held her legs and others held and pressed her arms down. The people with whom I did this were: (i) Sgt Makwetu; Iii) Sgt Mzimkulu; (iii) Lt Thompson. These things we did caused much pain and discomfort to Miss Msutwana. She, however, was resolute in denying any participation in the deeds we questioned her about. She provided no information resulting in the escape of Mr Charles Sebe, nor Illisolomzi. After we had despaired and stopped the interrogation and torture, Col Panzi entered the interrogation room and asked if she had said anything. We replied that she was still denying it. He asked if we had done all that we had to do. When we replied in the affirmative he kicked her and left the room." EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 17 MR THOBA Then he deals, Honourable Members of the Committee, with the torture of Miss Maqoma and Mrs Nomoy. "Miss Maqoma and Mrs Nomoy, who are sisters, were amongst the people detained as a follow-up to the escape of Mr Charles Sebe. Intelligence reports were to the effect that Mrs Nomoy's husband was a member of Illisolomzi, referred to earlier in my representations. Miss Maqoma and Mrs Nomoy's father, Mr Lent Maqoma was also known to be a Illisolomzi members. The detention of these ladies was for them to be questioned on their activities and to get information from them about the agents of Illisolomzi in the Ciskei. Information had been received that these ladies had returned to Ciskei after a period of hiding in the Transkei. The following officers were detained to take part in the arrest of these ladies: Myself,(that is W/O Thoba Mr Chairman), Lt Thompson, W/O Bojana; and WO Makom. I had been the one who received a telephonic instruction from Capt Katangana to pick up men and go and arrest the two women. The instructions were phoned through to me at home in the evening. I proceeded to the homes of these Officers and told them of my instructions. We drove to the home of these people at Douglasdale Farm, Alice, in two motor vehicles that same night. On our arrival at Alice we started at the Police Station where we were to receive further instructions from Capt Katangana. Indeed Capt Katangana was EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 18 MR THOBA waiting for us together with his twin brother. W/O Makom, whom we could not get at his home had also travelled with them to Alice. From Alice we drove to the home of the Maqoma's. When we arrived at the home the lights were shining inside and outside the house. As soon as our vehicle stopped the lights were switched off. This gave us the idea that the people were alerted to our presence and might try to escape. We decided to surround the house and knock. Our knocks produced no results. I decided to kick the door in. We penetrated the house. A search was conducted and at different stages Mrs Nomoy and Miss Maqoma were found in the house, hiding. One person was found under the bed and the other in the wardrobe. The two women were slapped with open hands by us in the house and were sworn at and shouted at. They were still in their sleeping clothes. They were allowed to wear proper clothing and led out of the house. As they were being led outside, they were being prodded with muzzles of guns on their backs to hasten them up. Outside the house they were loaded into boots of cars and driven to Alice Police Station. In Alice Police Station they were kicked, slapped and insulted by us. They were undressed and kept completely naked whilst being questioned. A wet towel was used to throttle and suffocate them during interrogation, during questioning. I insulted Mrs Nomoy by saying that she is busy going up and down Transkei and Ciskei whilst her husband was EAST LANDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 19 MR THOBA busy with his girlfriends. When I said this she wept bitterly. After the interrogation we were satisfied that they indeed had information as their admissions about the activities of their father and Mrs Nomoy's husband corresponded with information we had. Capt Katanga telephoned Col Panzi and informed him of our success. Col Panzi instructed that they be taken away to be detained at Dimbaza police cells. The trauma suffered by Miss Msutwana and Brig Simandla, Miss Maqoma and Mrs Nomoy is beyond comparison. Whether or not they were involved in these activities could never have entitled them to such extreme acts of torture. I have a wife and children whom I love so much. Often whilst in the service of the Elite Unit I asked myself what helplessness and pain would overcome one if one were to be placed in the same circumstances I placed some of the people who came to our offices for interrogation. The years I have sat in jail have given me ample opportunity to think long and hard about how my life has unfolded and the events that overcame it. If there is anything that I could wish for more than amnesty it is to be loved, accepted and, hard as it might be, to be forgiven by those I have hurt so much. The things I did to these victims were things I could not even mention in conversation to my wife and children when they asked how my day had been. In spite of all the brutality and the pain I meted EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 20 MR THOBA out I bore no personal grudge to any of these people. They were people I would probably have met in like and circumstances different from what we found ourselves in. And I ask that it may please this Committee to extend amnesty to me." Mr Chairman this affidavit was sworn to and signed by the applicant at the Mdantsane Prison on the 15th March 1997. This concludes the written statement that he made in preparation for this, but with the leave of the Committee I wish to put certain questions to expand on some items to the applicant. Thank you. EXAMINATION BY MR HOLE Mr Thoba, in amplifying your application I wish to ask you certain questions and I want to ask you to give your answers to the Committee. In the judgment given by the Regional Court Magistrate, Mr Maqubela, at page 5 of that judgment, relating to the assault on Miss Maqoma, she is recorded as having been electrocuted with electric wires among others, and was also trampled upon. Do you confirm that this is what was done and you took part in this? MR THOBA Yes it is so. I did have a hand in that, a lot. MR HOLE Thank you. And in the same judgment Sir, relating again to the assault on these people, you in particular, are recorded as having brought a string with which this lady was tied up, this is at page 7 of the judgment, Mr Chairman, and that a tube was place around the face of this lady. Is this in fact correct? MR THOBA Yes it is the truth. JUDGE WILSON What page of the bundle is it? Oh it's not part of the bundle. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 21 MR THOBA MR HOLE It is what the Committee through Mr Brink, prepared. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Hole would that be under Annexure D of Mr Brink's prepared application? SPEAKER'S MICROPHONE IS NOT ON MR HOLE May I continue, Mr Chairman? JUDGE MALL Please do. MR HOLE Thank you. It is also recorded Sir, in the judgment of the court that a damp towel was used in suffocating these ladies and throttling them. Is this in fact what took place? MR THOBA Yes Sir, it is the truth. MR HOLE One of these ladies was at some stage ordered to lick the boots of one of the applicants, Mr Makom, and remove therefrom the blood that had flowed onto his boots. Is this also what took place in your presence? MR THOBA Yes it is the truth. MR HOLE The judgment, it is now bundle D, Mr Chairman, at page 9, it is recorded that there were burn marks on both breasts and burn marks on the thighs of Mrs Nomoy. I want to ask you was a cigarette used in torturing her? MR THOBA Telephone wires were used to torture her. MR HOLE Thank you. And at Bundle E, Mr Chairman, at page 323, Mr Thoba you are recorded as having taken part in removing the pantihose of one of the complainants and forcing her to lie down as well as pulling her hair. Is this what in fact you did? MR THOBA Yes it is the truth. MR HOLE And you are also recorded as having mocked her and remarked, perhaps not so appropriately, about her private parts. Is this also the truth? MR THOBA Yes it is the truth. MR HOLE Still at page 324, Mr Chairman, at Bundle E, Mr Thoba, you are also reported to have used a plastic bag to cover the EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 22 MR THOBA face of the victim, thus causing her to suffocate. Is this correct? MR THOBA Yes it is the truth. MR HOLE And Mrs Nomoy, at page 325 of Bundle E was also poured over with water and a fan was switched on and placed next to her as she lay down on the ground. Is this what took place? MR THOBA Yes this is the truth. MR HOLE And that at page 326 of Bundle E, Mr Chairman, Mr Thoba you are also reported as having used a baton with which you hit her. Is this correct? MR THOBA Yes it is so. MR HOLE Lastly Mr Thoba, how do you feel about these things? MR THOBA Today, I am very disappointed with myself. This is very painful. The deeds of torturing victims and this issue. It is not what I did willingly, it was painful for me to do, but because of the circumstances at the time as the Ciskeian Police, if you did not do your job appropriately, so-to-speak, you would be detained. MR HOLE Are you aware of any member of the Security Police or the Elite Unit in particular who was detained and ended up being tortured? MR THOBA Yes, Mr Mlungisi Ganda was one of the people who were tortured by four captains. They did not just torture him, he was charged with terrorism. Those were the circumstances that we lived under. Therefore a person like me was very sad because I was very low in the ranks, that was my fear, I had to do things that I did not like. MR HOLE Yes. And what rank did Mr Ganda hold in the Ciskei Police at the time of his arrest if you can recall? MR THOBA He was a Colonel. MR HOLE And do you know what happened to the officers who EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 23 MR THOBA assaulted him? MR THOBA These captains who were torturing him got promoted in fact. They were also taken to the court of law and were sentenced. There was a presiding officer there, after he had sentenced them he lost his job but the captains were promoted. They became majors. SPEAKER'S MIKE NOT ON What was the name of this gentleman? ...(indistinct) MR THOBA It was Mr Ngoxo. ...(indistinct) MR THOBA Yes Sir. MR HOLE Do you know who paid the fines for these officers who assaulted Col Ganda? MR THOBA The State paid. MR HOLE Have you today spoken at all to any of the victims of these assaults? MR THOBA Yes, I have spoken to Brig Simandla. I was just asking after his health. I was also trying to reflect repentance with the way I ill-treated him. Mrs Msutwana, I wanted to greet her but I was too scared, because I feel ever so guilty for what I did. I request Brigadier, Mrs Msutwana, Mrs Nomoy, won't you please forgive me? I ask for forgiveness for the deeds. You must recall that the cause of all this was the Government of the day. MR HOLE I see that you are also Sir, applying for amnesty in respect of Miss Maqoma and I understand that in the trial that you faced you were acquitted in respect of the assault on her. Can you tell the Committee why are you now asking for amnesty in respect of her as well when you were in fact acquitted of the deeds? EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 24 MR THOBA MR THOBA I am asking Lindela Maqoma for forgiveness because she is one of the victims even though I was acquitted in court, I am merely feeling guilty and I am asking the Committee here to forgive me as well. MR HOLE Mr Chairman, that terminates the questions I wish to ask from the applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HOLE . JUDGE MALL Mr Brink are there any questions you wish to put to the applicant? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK . MR BRINK Yes please, Mr Chairman Mr Thoba in your original application for amnesty and here I am referring, Mr Chairman, to paragraph 11(B) you indicated that the complainants with whom you were involved were detained following the orders of Col Panzi. That is correct? MR THOBA Yes Sir, that is so. MR BRINK Did the orders come directly to you from Col Panzi or did they come from one of your superiors who was below Col Panzi? MR THOBA These orders were from Col Panzi directly. MR BRINK He gave no instructions to torture people, did he? MR THOBA He did. MR BRINK Will you tell me what those instructions were? MR THOBA He said that I must visit the detainees. And I must endeavour to get the truth from them. If I did not get the truth I must beat them up. The aim was to get the truth. MR BRINK I do not want for the purpose the decency in this Committee to repeat what has already been said by you, but I suggest to you that no one would have given you an order to treat these women in the most appalling and disgusting and inhuman manner that you did. Revolting! EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR BRINK 25 MR THOBA MR THOBA Yes, Sir I did, but I was given orders. This is the way the Ciskeian Police conducted themselves. MR BRINK All of them? Are you saying that the Ciskeian Police all behaved or would have behaved in the manner you behaved? MR THOBA Yes, the Police that were attached from the original place where I was attached to, that is how they behaved. If you are to interrogate someone, that was the order of the day. MR BRINK I can understand that in the circumstances which happened in South Africa in the old days that detainees were knocked about and beaten up, I can understand that. What I cannot understand is the way you behaved, particularly in regard to these women. In the most revolting ...(tape ends) MR THOBA The way I tortured and ill-treated these women this is the way the police conducted themselves. I found the situation as thus. I just continued on the job as the others did. MR BRINK Yes and I am not surprised you say you could not mention it to your wife and children in paragraph 64 of your statement. Now it is correct, isn't that none of these victims made any confessions to you of subversive activities in the then Ciskei? MR THOBA They never revealed anything. Miss Msutwana and Brig Simandla did not admit to what I was asking them. MR BRINK Let's deal briefly with Miss Msutwana. She was arrested or detained rather, on the 23rd of October 1986. Do you remember that? MR THOBA Yes I do remember. MR BRINK On the same day she was appallingly treated by you and your colleagues. MR THOBA Yes Sir. MR BRINK Notwithstanding that grossly inhuman behaviour on EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR BRINK 26 MR THOBA your part she admitted nothing. MR THOBA It is so. MR BRINK And she was then left without any medical attention for a period of five days until the 28th of October 1986, when she was seen by a doctor. It is in the record. MR THOBA The medical attention that she was meant to have was dependent on the Captain of that particular police station. MR BRINK This woman was left alone for five days after the most savage, brutal and revolting assaults upon her and she had not made any confession whatsoever, please explain that? JUDGE WILSON Did you have anything to do with her for those five days Mr Brink? MR BRINK Did you visit her during those five days? That was after the time the assaults ceased and until she received medical attention. MR THOBA No, I did not have anything to do with her in those five days. MR BRINK Did you not think to see how she was getting on? MR THOBA I was too scared to go, because I was going to be accused of working with her, collaborating with her. The captain of the station was meant to look after her or after her needs. MR BRINK Did you tell the captain, we have treated this woman very badly, we have tortured her, we have got nothing from her, would you not go and see her and see whether or not she should see a doctor? MR THOBA Yes, I did tell him. MR BRINK Now you say, or your evidence was to the effect that what you did to these women in particular, the treatment you gave Brig Simandla was bad enough, but the treatment you gave to these women in particular, you say, you did not do it willingly? EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR BRINK 27 MR THOBA MR THOBA Yes Sir. MR BRINK It seems to me from reading the record that you had the most, from your point of view, enjoyably sadistic time. MR THOBA No Sir, it is not so. As a man who was married it was painful to me, but it was because of the circumstances that we worked under. MR BRINK You were laughing at these women. You were laughing at them. You only laugh if you are happy. MR THOBA I did not laugh because I was happy at all. You had to appear as if you were enjoying the job, so that it does not appear like you are working together with the victims. It was painful. It is painful to this day. MR BRINK Yes I can understand it is painful in retrospect. You were a married man at the time. Were you not? MR THOBA Yes I was married at the time. MR BRINK And your colleagues were married men at the time. Were they not? MR THOBA Yes Sir. MR BRINK And as married men did you not think women deserve some respect even if they were political enemies? MR THOBA Yes they had to be treated with respect. If we had not been given the instructions that we must torture them, I do admit that they were ill-treated, but this is because of the instructions that we received. We had to torture them. Even though to us it was painful to do so. MR BRINK So painful that you laughed at them. MR THOBA I was not laughing. I had to pretend that I was enjoying my job. If I had to sulk it would have repercussions. Police would be detained just because you had a negative attitude. This was under 2R52. These are the painful EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR BRINK 28 MR THOBA circumstances we worked under. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Thoba, you were given instructions to torture your subjects with a view of extracting information relating to the activities of Illisolomzi, is it not so? And you were not given instructions to torture in order to gain more information about the nature of your victim's private parts. MR THOBA It was one of the ways in which during torturing someone you would be just endeavouring to abstract the truth, so that when you give a report back to the person who gave instructions you would go with a positive report. JUDGE MALL Mr Brink you have no further questions? NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK COMMISSION ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION KWANALE ENOCH THOBA (s.u.o.) MR BRINK Mr Chairman may I just address you briefly. During the adjournment and following upon discussions with my colleague appearing for the applicants it has been agreed after consultation with the two victims present that there is no need for Mr Hole to read out the remaining applicants' affidavits. The copies which the Committee has will be made available to both victims and in those circumstances then Mr Hole is at liberty to put certain questions to his clients on the basis of these statements made and whether or not I cross-examination would depend on what comes out. It is very unlikely I will be doing any further cross-examination. I may say that Brig Simandla and Miss Msutwana, certainly Brigadier, has indicated that he does not oppose, I don't know whether it's the right stage to mention this, but before I forget he does not oppose the applications for amnesty, he says in the interests of reconciliation in this country. Miss Msutwana is EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR BRINK 29 MR THOBA more equivocal about that. She does not, however, wish to give evidence but both of them have asked me to have this matter referred to the Human Rights Violations Committee and the Rehabilitation and Reparations Committee. JUDGE WILSON I take it the affidavits will become public documents. Other people also want access to them. MR BRINK Oh yes, oh yes. JUDGE MALL Mr Hole these documents will now by consent, the statements of the affidavits will now no longer be - will be read into the record. You may then proceed to put such questions as you would like to, to the applicants. MR HOLE Thank you Mr Chairman. JUDGE MALL Who are we dealing with now? MR HOLE I propose to deal with applicant No 2, Mr Thompson. MS KHAMPEPE Before you proceed to deal with the evidence of Mr Thompson, may I just ask Mr Thoba one question. I want to know where did you obtain the substance which you poured on the private parts of Miss Msutwana, this Isiqwapaqwapa? Where was this obtained from? MR THOBA This Isiqwapaqwapa, the substance I found it from members of the Security Police, W/O Makwetu in the Zwelitsha Police Station and Sergeant Mzimkulu. MS KHAMPEPE Was it normally used in the interrogation of victims? MR THOBA It was the first time I saw that tool and they told me that they always use it but I only knew about the tube. When I asked them what kind of a substance was this, they told me that it is a medicine that is normally used by Zionists. MS KHAMPEPE Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 30 MR THOMPSON MR THOMPSON (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR HOLE Dealing with Mr Thompson, Mr Chairman. Mr Thompson Sir, you have deposed to an affidavit which was signed by yourself at the Mdantsane Prison, is that correct? MR THOMPSON Yes it is so Sir. MR HOLE And in that affidavit you seek to relate the events surrounding the torture of Mrs Nomoy, Miss Maqoma, Miss Msutwana and Brig Simandla? MR THOMPSON Yes it is so Sir. MR HOLE In your statement you relate the surrounding events as being the escape of Mr Charles Sebe from prison and the abduction of Mr Kwane Sebe, the son of the President. MR THOMPSON Yes it is so Sir. MR HOLE Would this have been the reason why these people were arrested and tortured? MR THOMPSON Yes it is so. MR HOLE Would you tell the Commission today, the Committee, how do you feel about what you took part in the gross treatment that was meted out by your colleagues and yourself to these victims before the Committee today? MR THOMPSON I hurt a lot because what I did to them, me and my colleagues was very painful. And thus I ask for forgiveness. I would not have laughed or accepted it if it was done to me but because of the working circumstances then we had to handle them in the manner that we did. MR HOLE You have heard Mr Thoba answer questions and you have also heard his statement being read. Do you confirm the contents of that as being the truth, a true account of what took place there? MR THOMPSON Yes it is so Sir. MR HOLE And the Elite Unit that you were a member of was it EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 31 MR THOMPSON formed in terms of any statute? MR THOMPSON Can you repeat your question Sir? MR HOLE Was there any law of the Ciskei Parliament establishing the Elite Unit? MR THOMPSON Yes it is so Sir. MR HOLE So you refer in your statement to the Elite Unit Act No 18 of 1986 which is annexed in your statement as Annexure A. Is this the Act we are talking about? MR THOMPSON Yes it is so Sir. MR HOLE Was there also a Security Branch of the Police in Ciskei? MR THOMPSON Yes there was Sir. MR HOLE But this Elite Unit was established over and above the existing units? MR THOMPSON Yes it is so Sir. MR HOLE You mention among the people who tortured these people, yourself, Mr Thoba, Mr Makom and you also mention a Sgt Makwetu, Sgt Belo, Sgt Mzimkulu, and a Lt Blaauw, yet those are the people you mentioned, are these serving members of the South African Police today? MR THOMPSON The last time I heard from them, they were working in Ciskei but since I was arrested I don't know where they are now. MR HOLE These people were not arrested in connection with this offence. MR THOMPSON No, they were never arrested Sir. MR HOLE You also mentioned W/O Nandana, Swelendao and Thlulane and Lt Funane. MR THOMPSON Yes it is so Sir. MR HOLE Do you know if any of them have left the service of the Police services? EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 32 MR THOMPSON MR THOMPSON The one I think that is still working is Mr Funane but I am not sure whether he is still employed as a policeman, but Mr Swelendao passed away. Funane and Nandana are no longer members of the Police Force. MR HOLE Can you tell the Committee how do you relate the torture of these people, especially the women in particular with the attainment of a political objective by yourself or the Government of the day, of which you were an agent of. MR THOMPSON Firstly Miss Msutwana, she is a sister to Nomalungela Msutwana, who is a girlfriend of Mr Charles Sebe. Mr Sebe escaped or he was released when he was sentenced for terrorism at maximum security prison in Middeldrift. There was information that landed in Elite offices that she is a link between her sister and Charles Sebe, after Charles Sebe had already escaped. That is when we interrogated and cross-questioned her about the assignment she was given by Charles Sebe on this side. Miss Lindela Maqoma and Mrs Nomoy are sisters. They are Chief Lent Maqoma's daughters who was an ex-minister here in Ciskei and he launched an organisation called Ciskei People's Rights Protection Party. He is also said to be a member of Illisolomzi. Mrs Nomoy's husband which is Ben Nomoyi also became a member of that Ciskei Peoples' Rights Protection Party and Illisolomzi as well. They escaped and sought political asylum in Transkei where they stayed for some time. These two victims followed thereafter and stayed in Transkei. They came back, they infiltrated unnoticed but we heard through our informers that they were around and they were suspected that they were being assigned to come here and that's when we cross-questioned them about Illisolomzi's activities and as to why were they here. MR HOLE Also you mention in your statement that the assault EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 33 MR THOMPSON was with a view to getting information from these people about agents of these organisations. Were these organisations lawful organisations in the Republic of Ciskei? MR THOMPSON No they were not lawful, because even the organisation itself, Illisolomzi and the Peoples' Rights were banned in Ciskei. Therefore, we had to know them and find them because they were radicals. MR HOLE Can you tell the Commission what was the aim of the Ciskei Peoples' Rights Protection Party? MR THOMPSON It was to overthrow Lennox Sebe's Government, so as to govern. MR HOLE That concludes the questions I wish to ask from the second applicant Mr Chairman, may I proceed with third applicant? NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HOLE MS KHAMPEPE Mr Thompson, was the Peoples' Rights Protection Party working together with Illisolomzi? MR THOMPSON Yes Ma'am. MS KHAMPEPE And how was it a merger between the two organisations or did they have different constitutions, only the same aims? MR THOMPSON They had the same aims. The Ciskeian Peoples' Rights Protection Party was an organisation, Illisolomzi was going to be the armed wing, because they were the ones who were trained in a military sense. MS KHAMPEPE When was the Peoples' Rights Protection Party formed Mr Thompson? MR THOMPSON I am not sure but I think it was June 1985 or even 1986. MS KHAMPEPE And Illisolomzi came into existence after the Peoples' Protection Party had been formed? MR THOMPSON Yes Ma'am. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MS KHAMPEPE 34 MR THOMPSON JUDGE MALL You say that this, these organisations and this party was banned, when was it banned? MR THOMPSON I cannot just recall the year, but they were banned immediately after formation, when they were known. JUDGE MALL And was this ban done by an Act of Parliament? MR THOMPSON Yes it is so Sir. JUDGE MALL Mr Hole would you know the answer as to whether this was done by Statute and if so, when? MS KHAMPEPE Mr Hole was it not the Suppression of the Banned Organisations Act? There was a reference somewhere by one of the applicants in the application to that effect. MR HOLE I am not able to supply the Committee with a specific Act, but if the Committee will have regard to Annexure Q of Mr Thoba's application, Mr Chairman this is a copy of the indictment in a Supreme Court matter between the State and one Matthews Lungi Sigenda, who was charged with, among others, with treason and terrorism. In the indictment it is spelled out clearly, in the preamble, that the Ciskei Peoples' Rights Protection Party was established on the 2nd of June 1986 and it goes on to say that this endeavour to overthrow the Government of the Republic of Transkei ...(intervention) JUDGE WILSON On the next page, at the top of the page, it tells you when and how it was banned. MR HOLE That is so. I am indebted to the Committee. JUDGE MALL What was the name of the Political Party that was in power at the time? MR THOMPSON Here in Ciskei it was the Ciskei National Independence Party that was headed by President Sebe. JUDGE MALL Were there any other political parties besides this one? MR THOMPSON I cannot recall, UDF was existing but they did not EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE JUDGE MALL 36 MR THOMPSON have effect as in the whole South Africa. JUDGE MALL I was thinking of a political party such as the Ciskei National Independence Party. Was there an opposition party in Parliament? MR THOMPSON No Ciskei was a one state party at that time. JUDGE MALL Was that by law? MR THOMPSON Yes it is so Sir. JUDGE MALL How did the Security Branch function apart from the Illisolomzi? What was the function of the Security Branch? MR THOMPSON Its duty was to watch ANC and UDF and other organisations. JUDGE MALL And Illisolomzi? MR THOMPSON The Elite Unit had to watch Illisolomzi because it was a direct threat to the Government. JUDGE MALL Mr Hole, any re-examination? I am sorry, Mr Brink are there any questions you wish to put to this witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK Just one or two, briefly. Mr Thompson one of the questions I put to Mr Thoba should perhaps more properly been directed to you. At the time that Miss Msutwana was in detention you held rank senior to that of Mr Thoba, is that correct? You were Lieutenant? MR THOMPSON Yes, it is so Sir. MR BRINK And he was a Warrant Officer, I think. MR THOMPSON Yes Sir. MR BRINK Now, you heard the questions and answers regarding the - after the assault the further detention of this victim without medical help, can you give any explanation for that? You were a commissioned Officer. MR THOMPSON Yes I heard that Sir. I agree with Mr Thoba because the duty of medical attention is the responsibility of the Station Commander. I had to tell Mr Panzi, but the Station EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR BRINK 37 MR THOMPSON Commander had the right of taking her to hospital, without consulting us if he thought that there was a problem. MR BRINK Well, did you recommend that she be taken to a hospital and seen by a doctor at least? MR THOMPSON No I never recommended that. MR BRINK Thank you. Mr Chairman, I do not propose asking any further questions. I just want to draw to your attention what appears to be an error, whether you have seen it. If you have a look at Annexure F of the bundle, which is the Appeal Court Judgement at page 4 at the top of that judgment, of this one relating to this particular application it's F of the whole bundle. MS KHAMPEPE That's annexure F of your own bundle Mr Brink? MR BRINK Yes, yes. And at page 4 of that judgment, the second paragraph, you will see that the learned Appeal Judge appears to have made an error. He refers to complainant being Voyisiwe Veronica Ntxanani. In fact Voyisiwe Veronica Ntxanani was a magistrate and that appears on page 5 of the judgment about a third of the way down, the second paragraph. Just an error. In fact the complainant on the second count is, it's common cause was Nomtunzi Msutwana. JUDGE MALL Yes. MR BRINK Thank you. JUDGE MALL Mr Hole, any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HOLE Mr Thompson, in your affidavit at paragraph 14, you tell the Committee that it was understood at the time that the African National Congress and its allies were not concerned with Ciskei, but rather with the South African state. Was that in fact the position? MR THOMPSON Yes it is so Sir. MR HOLE And at page three, of your affidavit, that's paragraph EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 38 MR THOMPSON 15A you say: "Ciskei had a one party and all other parties were unlawful except for the Ciskei National Independence Party, whose head was President Sebe." You go on and say: "President Sebe at some stage even declared himself President for life." Is that in fact the case? MR THOMPSON Yes it is so Sir. MR HOLE I have nothing further to ask the witness. Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HOLE WITNESS EXCUSED EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 39 MR MAKOM MR HOLE With the Committee's leave I propose to deal with the third applicant. JUDGE MALL Are you proceeding now to Mr Makom? MR HOLE That is so, Mr Chairman. May I proceed Sir. JUDGE MALL Yes. J W MAKOM (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR HOLE Mr Makom you have a document before you, an affidavit which was signed by yourself on the 16th of March 1997 at Mdantsane Prison. MR MAKOM Yes it is so Sir. MR HOLE Was this document an account of what took place between you and the victims, before this Committee? MR MAKOM Yes, it is to Sir. MR HOLE Is it correct that the Elite Unit of which you were a member was disbanded by the military government which staged a coup led by Brig Qozo in 1990? MR MAKOM Yes it so Sir. MR HOLE Mr Chairman, he annexes to his representation Annexure A, which is the Elite Unit's (...indistinct) decree, that is at page 8 of his representation. JUDGE MALL Page eight of the affidavit? MR HOLE That is so. In your papers Mr Makom you sketched the relations between the Ciskei State and the Transkei State and the problems arising from those relations. MR MAKOM Can you please repeat your question Sir? MR HOLE You mentioned in your affidavit the problems that existed between Transkei and Ciskei. MR MAKOM Yes Sir. MR HOLE And you also make mention of an operation, which you call Operation Katzen. JUDGE MALL I'm afraid I can't hear you. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 40 MR MAKOM MR HOLE I am sorry. You made mention, is it audible now Mr Chairman? You make mention of an operation which you call Operation Katzen. MR MAKOM Yes Sir. MR HOLE Can you tell the Committee what this operation was all about? MR MAKOM According to my knowledge this Operation Katzen it was planned in Transkei by Illisolomzi Military wing of the Peoples' Rights Protection Party. This operation was to overthrow the late Mr Sebe who was the President of Ciskei at the time. This operation was to be carried out by this Party that I have already mentioned and its military wing assisted by the Transkei Defence Force and other members of the Military Intelligence of South Africa. This happened and its aims were to overthrow the existing Ciskei Government then. This happened because there was an attack in Bisho during February 1987, I cannot recall the date exactly as it is quite some time now. The aims of this operation was to unite these two homelands, starting at Mzimkulu up to Gamtoos River. Secondly, it was to suppress the political organisations that were in the border region. If I can recall clearly information that we got was that since it was known by the Military Intelligence of Transkei and Illisolomzi and the South African Military Unit the intention was to suppress all the political parties in the border region in order to prepare for the elections so that the National Party should win. MR HOLE In your application, Sir you make mention of the fact that the Ciskei Government was seen as being too lenient on the African National Congress and its allies. MR MAKOM Yes Sir. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 41 MR MAKOM MR HOLE May the Committee bear with me. I am reading from page number 2. In your affidavit Sir, you also mention that there was a constant change of Commissioners of Police in the Ciskei hierarchy at the time. Can you expand more on this? MR MAKOM Police commissioners were being changed frequently in Ciskei at that time because there was an unrest and there was a feeling that the agents have already infiltrated the Ciskei. And this led to the interchange because nobody seems to be trusted. MR HOLE On page three of your aaffidavit, starting from paragraph no 13, you make mention of the fact that after Gen Sebe was put in custody he was replaced by Gen Makuse who was also removed in March the following year and replaced by Gen Zozi. And Zozi removed again six months later and replaced by Brig Takane. In February the follow year Brig Takane was removed and succeeded by Gen Makuzi. Is this what was taking place in Ciskei at the time? MR MAKOM Yes it is so Sir. MR HOLE In other words, nobody could be trusted even in the Security Police and in the Security Forces themselves? MR MAKOM Yes, I will add on the fact mentioned by Mr Thoba that even Mr Gendani was charged, because at that time there was not even trust by the Government even on high ranking officers. MR HOLE You have read Mr Thoba's affidavit and in there is reference to the trial of Mr Mlungisi Genda. In that annexure, the particulars given by the State alleged that Mr Genda was communicating with Mr Charles Sebe and he made copies of certain documents for him. Now Mr Chairman I am referring to Annexure Q, of the first applicant's affidavit, on page 80 of the bundle by Mr Thoba. MR MAKOM Yes Sir it is so. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 42 MR MAKOM MR HOLE You confirm also that Mr Genda was brutalised by members of the Elite Unit? MR MAKOM Yes it is so Sir. MR HOLE Do you recall what treatment he was given? MR MAKOM I was not one of those members but I just heard that he was beaten by those four Captains. And there was a court procedure because of that where they were sentenced and their fine was paid by the State. If I can remember clearly each of them was fined R600,00 but that was paid by the State. MR HOLE To bring you back to the Elite Unit Sir, you say in your statement that the Elite Unit reported directly to the President of the country. MR MAKOM Yes, it is so. MR HOLE Can you tell us who was the head of the Elite Unit? MR MAKOM It was Kwane Sebe, son of the late President. He was heading the Elite Unit. MR HOLE In other words reported to his father about the activities of his unit? MR MAKOM Yes it is so, Sir. MR HOLE And some of the chief enemies of the Ciskei state were in fact brothers of the President, is that correct? MR MAKOM Yes it is so, Sir. MR HOLE For instance Mr Charles Sebe and Mr Namba Sebe and their sons? MR MAKOM Yes Sir. MR HOLE You allude to an attack on the home of President Sebe, sometime during 1987. MR MAKOM Yes Sir. MR HOLE And you say that troops of the Transkei Defence Force were used in this attack? MR MAKOM Yes Sir, it is so. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 43 MR MAKOM MR HOLE And you also say in one of the annexures, Annexure D and Annexure F of your statement that a mercenary, a French National, Mr Desville was also used in the attack on the President's home. JUDGE WILSON He doesn't say it, he annexes newspaper reports that say it. MR HOLE Perhaps it is clumsily put, Mr Commissioner, that is so. It is Annexure D and Annexure F of his affidavit, Mr Chairman. Sir, are you aware of incidents where people whose origin could be traced back to Transkei were in fact repatriated by the Ciskei State? MR MAKOM I know about the soldiers who came to Bisho. One soldier died because there was a lot of shooting. Templeton Nondela, he is the one who died. He was released after negotiations. This was under Gen Bantu Holomisa who was at the time in power. JUDGE MALL What is the purpose of all this Mr Hole, this evidence? MR HOLE Mr Chairman, I am trying as much as possible to draw a full picture for the Committee to view whatever acts may have been committed by these applicants, within a full context of what uwas happening at the time. It might perhaps not be easy to understand why some of these acts had taken place, but I will not proceed in this line any further. I think I've (...indistinct) JUDGE MALL I am not stopping you. I just wanted some clarity in my mind. MR HOLE Mr Makom, you are also, Sir, making application in respect of Miss Msutwana and if I recall correctly you were acquitted, rather were not even charged with the assault on her. MR MAKOM When I made an application I thought it was necessary to mention this because I was there when she was being tortured. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 44 MR MAKOM At a certain stage I also tortured her even though I was not there all the time. I left the others, continuing with the torturing. But after the Reconciliation Act I thought it was necessary to reconcile with her, because truly no matter what the circumstances were at the time she was tortured and ill-treated. I ask for forgiveness from Miss Msutwana. I ask for reconciliation, that we walk hand in hand into the new South Africa, because I did not fight with her personally, even Mr Simandla, Mrs Nomoy or her sister Nomanlungela. I ask for forgiveness today. I am sorry. Because on reflection in jail, even though past deeds were perpetrated on our people, it was never my aim as a policeman, but I was on duty. I would have been in trouble if I did not show that I would stand up and protect the Ciskeian Government of the day. MR HOLE Sir can you tell the Committee how long do you still have to sit in custody in respect of the offences of which you are convicted? MR MAKOM I was sentenced to seven years imprisonment. On the 20 November this year I am supposed to be released. MR HOLE That is all the questions I wish to put to this witness thank you Mr Chairman. Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HOLE MS KHAMPEPE Mr Makom you were, if you remember, directly implicated by Miss Msutwana during the criminal trial of your co-applicant in her assault. MR MAKOM I cannot remember well whether she did say so or not Ma'am, because there were a lot of cases facing us at the time. What I remember properly is that I was not charged on her case or sentenced. JUDGE MALL Mr Brink, did I ask you earlier if you had any EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 45 MR MAKOM questions? Mr Brink I thought you told me you had no questions? MR BRINK I did not answer your question, because it was not put to me with respect. I think it was put to Mr Hole. JUDGE MALL Misunderstanding, I am sorry. MR BRINK Indeed, that is all right. I will not be long. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK Mr Makom, you likewise at the time were a lieutenant. MR MAKOM No, I was a Sergeant. I became a Lieutenant later on. MR BRINK I just want to put to you, maybe you personally were not involved, but the victims asked me to put these questions to you, which I propose to do. Is it correct that after the assault on Brig Simandla he was left without medication for some nine days until Maj Vuso called the doctor? MR MAKOM Yes, it is the truth, because according to the law, after we have completed our jobs we leave the detainee in jail then the Station Commander in the police station of that particular prison, if Mr Simandla requested a doctor, he was meant to have been taken to the doctor. It is the truth that we left him without care or medication at the time. MR BRINK And in so far as Miss Msutwana is concerned is it correct that the Station Master did at some stage ...(intervention) JUDGE WILSON Station Commander, not Station Master. MR BRINK I beg your pardon, Station Commander, did he arrange for this victim to be taken to hospital? She was in fact transported to hospital, but one or other or all of you went to the hospital and brought her back before a doctor could attend to her. MR MAKOM I cannot dispute that Sir, but that did not come to EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR BRINK 46 MR MAKOM my knowledge. MR BRINK I see. Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK JUDGE MALL Mr Hole, any re-examination? MR HOLE I have none. Thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HOLE WITNESS EXCUSED EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR BRINK 47 BRIG SIMANDLA JUDGE MALL Thank you. You are excused. Do you want to proceed with the next applicant? MR HOLE That was our last applicant, Mr Chairman. JUDGE MALL Yes, Mr Brink? MR BRINK I merely want to give an opportunity to Brig Simandla to make a statement. If you wouldn't mind Brigadier just go to the other side and introduce yourself. I do not think there is any need for this gentleman to be sworn in. He is not giving evidence. He just wants to ask questions about reconciliation. JUDGE MALL Perhaps you can start off by getting his full name for the purpose of the record? MR BRINK Would you give the Committee your full names Brigadier? BONISILE DAVID SIMANDLA MR BRINK You are the gentleman who has been referred to during the course of this application as having been assaulted during the problems which arose concerning these applications. Is that correct? BRIG SIMANDLA Yes Sir that is correct. MR BRINK Would you tell the Committee what your attitude is towards the grant or refusal of amnesty to these three applicants who testified this morning? BRIG SIMANDLA As I was working in the Ciskei the circumstances under which the Ciskeian Police worked was abnormal. They did ill-treat people and torture people but there is a fact that must be known, they enjoyed it. Even if they were instructed that they should beat people up they were not given instructions to per se to beat them. They were just merely given instructions to investigate about the truth. I would assume that they were taken for training and given EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR BRINK 48 BRIG SIMANDLA proper training as to how to get information from people, without torturing the people. I want to talk specifically about my case. I want to dispute the fact that I was Head of Prison at the time. I was a Commander. I had nothing to do with the prisons. There was a Head of Prison in jail. They did not investigate his situation at all. I want to refer to the issue about the keys. I reported to them. They were meant to give a report to Noqela and Pasha. They did not go to them. Therefore, they were meant to come to me directly. ...(intervention) MR BRINK Sorry Brigadier, I don't want to interrupt you, the Committee is really concerned to ascertain whether or not these applicants, in the light of the evidence they have given, and the information they have provided should be granted amnesty, And I think what the Committee is more interested to hear from you is what your attitude is and whether you would like the Committee to make a recommendation that would be referred to the Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee, so that possibly damages can be obtained for you, by reason of your previous assaults. This is merely to find out what your attitude is towards amnesty. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Brink have you canvassed Mr Simandla's view with regard to the substance of the application, whether he wants to oppose the application? I am just basing my view on his remarks. MR BRINK I did canvass it with him earlier, as I indicated to the Committee at an earlier stage but he indicated that in the interests of reconciliation he did not oppose the application, but he indicated firstly the whole truth hadn't been told. I did not want to call him to give details as to that but merely EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR BRINK 49 BRIG SIMANDLA to satisfy you that he does not oppose the grant for amnesty. JUDGE MALL If he gives evidence which goes contrary to what the applicants have said, one or other of the applicants has said it may then be necessary for him to be cross-examined in order to find out which version is acceptable. He has not taken an oath to give evidence in that regard and if it is still your wish to confine his comments to the issue that you talk about then perhaps he should get going with that. MR BRINK Yes. Would you indicate to the Committee Brigadier, what your attitude is. You indicated to me this morning, you will recollect, that you thought although you were not happy and you believe these people enjoyed doing what they did to you you thought in the interests of reconciliation you would not oppose amnesty. I am quite neutral in this affair, but I would like to have your views. BRIG SIMANDLA As I said I am not opposing this application, because of our country, South Africa, and its endeavour to reach a point of reconciliation, I am not disputing or against the amnesty. MR BRINK Thank you Brigadier. BRIG SIMANDLA Thank you. JUDGE MALL Thank you very much. BRIG SIMANDLA EXCUSED EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 50 ADDRESS JUDGE MALL Yes, where do we proceed from here Mr Brink? MR BRINK I do not propose calling any more, or any witnesses for that matter. I had discussed the matter with Miss Msutwana through the briefer with her and I do not propose calling witnesses. JUDGE MALL Mr Hole? MR HOLE Thank you Mr Chairman. JUDGE MALL Are these the only clients that you represent? MR HOLE These are the only people I represent in this application. JUDGE MALL Do you wish to address us? MR HOLE If I may. JUDGE MALL Yes, please. MR HOLE ADDRESSES COMMITTEE Honourable members of the Committee you have heard the evidence by these applicants. They have sketched a story of having been members of a Security Unit in the Ciskei Police, specifically called the Elite Unit. It does seem to be common cause that whatever acts, deeds or crimes that they stand before you in respect of, these were committed in the course and scope of their employment as members of the Security Forces of the government of the day in the former state of Ciskei. A question has to be answered whether these acts that they have confessed to confirms with the definition of the Act in respect of which this Committee may extend amnesty. In my submission, Mr Chairman, the offences or the acts that they have made themselves guilty of, which they have now confessed before this Honourable Committee, are offences or deeds or acts or missions as defined in the Act. It also has to be asked whether they have made application which complies with the requirements of this Act and in my EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 51 ADDRESS submission they have. They have made a proper application which were duly processed by the Logistic Unit of the Commission and it was decided that a hearing should be held and the hearing has duly been held and they have been afforded an opportunity to state their case and in my submission the acts of which they have made themselves guilty of relate to an act associated with a political objective, committed in the course of the conflict of the past. The Committee will recall the evidence they have given at large about their political situation in the country which they served at the time, the tensions between the so-called states of Transkei and Ciskei and the role that the security forces had to play to try and calm the situation. It will also be asked by the Committee whether they have made a full disclosure of the relevant facts. In my submission Mr Chairman, they have, in fact in two instances, if I am not mistaken, they have even applied for amnesty in respect of offences for which they were not even been convicted of. We are here dealing with convicted persons who are sitting in jail and it would not make their case any lighter if they confess to other deeds than for which they are sitting in jail, but in the case of Mr Makom for instance, the third applicant, he has confessed to the torture and assault on Miss Msutwana. Mr Thoba and Mr Thompson have also confessed to the assault on Miss Maqoma. The Committee will recall their evidence to the effect that they were acquitted in respect of these assaults, but they have laid their souls bare to the Committee and confessed heir guilt in respect of these. The Committee, Mr Chairman, will recall that extracts of the judgment by the Regional Court magistrate and in one instance the Supreme Court of Ciskei, detailing the assault, some of it very EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 52 ADDRESS tviolent, which they perpetrated on these victims, were put to them and they readily admitted their complicity in those offences. In my submission they have thereby satisfied the requirements of Section 20 of the Act regarding the granting of amnesty to applicants. Perhaps I should now, Mr Chairman, deal with whether or not the acts they have made themselves guilty of, the acts for which they seek this tribunal's amnesty are according to the definition acts or missions which were done with the political objective which were advised or planned or directed or committed within or outside the Republic. It is common cause, Mr Chairman, that they were members of the state security forces. It is common cause that at some instance some of them were commanded and at one instance one of them was in command of an interrogation team. It is common cause also that, as I have stated before their interrogations were in terms of an Act of Parliament, the National Security Act of Ciskei, which enabled agents of the state to detain and question persons who were held indefinitely at times at the pleasure of the state. So, there is no dispute as to the official nature of these detentions, but a question might be asked, Mr Chairman, whether acts such as these, the undressing of a lady, the abusing of a lady, pouring her over with water and applying a substance which had a burning effect on her private parts, or switching on a fan and place it next to a lady who is unconscious in order to revive her, could be acts as contemplated by this Act. In my submission, Mr Chairman, all these acts were. This Committee has heard quite gruesome acts perpetrated in the name of the state. In some instances, Mr Chairman, murders were committed and people came forward and confessed to murders EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 53 ADDRESS of persons for a political objective. In this present case, Mr Chairman, people, especially women were given the worst treatment one can imagine, short of killing them, but having said this I wish to say that it is indeed an act contemplated by this Act. One might perhaps ask why not simply slap her around, why not kick her or why not shove her against the wall? But it does appear that the whole object, Mr Chairman, was to instil fear. The whole object was to make anybody afraid, or shall I use the term Mr Chairman, the whole object was to terrorise members of a political organisation which sought to overthrow the government of the day. Whether this government was legitimate or not is now besides the point, but what was done, Mr Chairman is that terror was used, extreme fear was unleashed on people for two reasons. One, to gain information from them about their activities or the activities of members of Illisolomzi who might be in Ciskei or about the escape of Mr Charles Sebe from prison, or the people who assisted him to jump prison and the abduction of the Head of the Elite Unit, General Kwane Sebe. The other objective Mr Chairman, was to instil as much fear in the hearts of anybody who associated himself, sympathised with or was a member of this political organisation Illisolomzi, or the Ciskei Peoples' Rights Protection Party. Perhaps the difference would be in the methods used in instilling fear and terror, but I think the Committee will agree with me that we have lived through very terrible times. At some instances hit squads were used to mow down people, women and children in the name of the government. In some instances women and children were killed in the name of the struggle. And in the present case before this honourable Committee a man and women were tortured very severely, I readily concede, but EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 54 ADDRESS this was still in the name of the government of the day, the government of President Lennox Sebe. If one has a look at Section 20, Subsection 3(B) of the Act, the Act reads: "Whether a particular act, mission or offence contemplated in Subsection 2 is an act associated with a political objective, shall be decided with reference to the following: the motive of the person who committed the act, mission or offence". I have already submitted Mr Chairman that this was to instil fear and to extract information for the government of the day and b) the context in which the act, or mission or offence took place, and in particular whether the act, mission or offence was committed in the course of or as part of a political uprising, disturbance or event or in reaction thereto." Clearly, Mr Chairman, there were treasonable acts being done in Ciskei, according to the laws of Ciskei at that time. People were detained, a member and the Head of the Elite Unit, the son of the President was abducted and taken to Transkei, people claimed responsibility for detaining him, a neighbouring state was training troops to overthrow Ciskei, pamphlets were distributed by Illisolomzi in Ciskei, inciting and fanning the flames of revolution in Ciskei. The Security Police of which these applicants were members had to act against this kind of conduct. Rightly or wrongly, Mr Chairman, but what they did in my submission they did in reaction to acts of a political uprising or a disturbance. If one had regard to Subsection 3(D) of Section 20 which enjoins us to look at the object or objective of the act, or EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 55 ADDRESS mission, or offence, and in particular whether the act, or mission, or offence was primarily directed at a political opponent, or state property or personnel or against private property or individuals. In my submission, Mr Chairman, the acts of these people, the applicants, gruesome as they may have been, were directed against people perceived to belong to Illisolomzi or have association with members of Illisolomzi or agents of Illisolomzi. Whether this information was correct or not, in my submission, does not affect the case either way. What we should look at, Mr Chairman, is the state of mind of the applicants at the time. Whether they believed that these people had this information. They have given evidence, Mr Chairman, to say there was a whole lot of information about Brig Simandla, the question about the key having been lost, which the Brigadier has also alluded to in his unsworn statement. There was a question of the guard who was not posted at the tower. There was a question of the guards who were disarmed, shortly before the assault on the prison and all these things, the relations between Miss Msutwana, her sister and Gen Charles Sebe who has escaped from custody. The information that the Elite Unit had that she was acting as an agent or a contact of Mr Sebe. In respect of Mrs Nomoy ...(intervention) MS KHAMPEPE Can I just interpose there Mr Hole, but insofar as Miss Msutwana is concerned the evidence before us, is that she was not particularly involved in the activities of Illisolomzi. She was only related to a sister of Charles Sebe's girlfriend. And there is no evidence also linking the sister to the activities of Illisolomzi. How can you draw such an inference? MR HOLE Honourable Commissioner, if one recalls the evidence of these applicants they do concede that Miss Msutwana was a EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 56 ADDRESS sister to a girlfriend of Gen Charles Sebe, but they go further than that, Honourable Commissioner, they say: "The Elite Unit had information that she was a contact between Charles Sebe and in that capacity she was being used by Charles Sebe to communicate between Charles Sebe and her sister." MS KHAMPEPE There is no evidence that her sister was involved with Illisolomzi. I mean for all that we can take care of is that we can take into account that the link might have been concerning the affairs of the heart. I mean here was General - I mean, Mr Charles Sebe wanting to make contact with the sister in connection with affairs which had no relation to the political activities of himself as a member of Illisolomzi. MR HOLE I take the point given by the Honourable Member of the Committee, but if we were to look at the Act under which these people were detained, they were detained in terms of the National Security Act. This is an Act which was passed to enable police, to give them extra powers to detain and question persons in respect with subversive activities. JUDGE WILSON But wasn't their main interest in respect of her to discover how the contact was made, who the contact people were who were bringing messages or taking messages to Charles Sebe, who was a very dangerous man in an adjoining country? And that is what they wanted from her was it not? Information as to how contact was made. MR HOLE That and much more perhaps. One can imagine a situation where people did not have much information and they were looking for as much information as they can get. If one looks at the judgment of Judge Pickard he sketches Charles Sebe's profile in a very distinct way. This was the Commander General of all the Ciskei forces. He commanded all their Army EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 57 ADDRESS formations, the Police formations and this was the brother to the President. He had defected to a neighbouring state, there were rumours of armed bandits being trained and there was even an infiltration and an attack on the President. Surely, you would not have expected the police to question her about matters of the heart. Surely they would have questioned her about a pending assault on the President, about a coup, about army bandits who were being trained in a foreign country? Dealing with the further submissions by these applicants ...(intervention) JUDGE MALL I understand them vigorously questioning Charles Sebe's lady friend to find out what information she has received, what information she is to pass on to his followers if he had any, but to extend that to a sister of this lady and to subject her to the kind of torture that she has been subjected to is something that cannot be easily justified. They knew beforehand that she was merely the sister of the lady and if anybody had information it would be the sister and not she. MR HOLE That might be a point, Mr Chairman, but again I wish to ask the Committee to look at it against the background that in one of the affidavits by Mr Thoba. Mr Thoba says "Soon they realised that they were not only dealing with Charles Sebe, but dealing with a more powerful organisation than themselves, an organisation that could even outwit, outmanoeuvre them." One get a situation where the police did not know where to start. The police had no leads. The head of the Elite Unit had been abducted, put in a car and taken to Transkei. Mr Charles Sebe had been sprung out from jail by White people. There was shooting. One can understand the state of mind of these people. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 58 ADDRESS These were junior officers some of them. At least they were not ranked like Gen Charles Sebe, like Gen Kwane Sebe or Col Panzi who gave all the orders. The highest ranking seems to have been a captain, Mr Katangana at some stage and a lieutenant at some stage. One cannot impute much creativeness to them. One cannot impute much sophistication to these people. It appeared that the people that they got, namely these victims, they tried to extract as much as information as they could from them. And in two cases the Committee already knows that they failed dismally, because it appears that these people did not know anything. But what is clear Mr Chairman, is that the assaults on these people did not seem to be assaults that had no purpose. JUDGE MALL Didn't what? MR HOLE Did not seem to be assaults that had no purpose that was being tried to achieve. JUDGE MALL I thought that you said that the purpose was to instil fear. MR HOLE That and more, to instil fear and to get information if possible. And in the case of Mr Maqoma and Mrs Nomoy the affidavits do say they did get some information. If one reads the affidavit of Makom one will see that he does say: "There were reports, there was information that they gave about an attack on the President's house." JUDGE MALL Just give us a quick reference to ...(intervention) MR HOLE Mr Jonki Nkosi Makom. I am trying to find the exact.... MS KHAMPEPE It is on page 6, at paragraph 36. MR HOLE Thank you, Commissioner. There is this reference to an impending attack which they obtained and he says EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 59 ADDRESS "The Elite Unit had information that there was going to be this attack." And if one looks at the evidence of Mr Thompson and Mr Thoba, especially the annexures that are given by them, Mr Chairman I am referring to the annexure, relating to the case of Gen Genda, Col Genda, where detailed evidence was given by a W/O Magaoli of the Elite Unit who had infiltrated the Illisolomzi. Who gave information and testified in court about the plans that Illisolomzi had about toppling the Ciskeian government. He gives a graphic picture of the infiltration of the presidential guard and the capturing of the President, taking him to Radio Ciskei where he would be forced to make a statement in terms of which he will be standing down. There is also reference to the President, being killed in the event of him refusing to step down. I think one should look at that picture against unsophisticated police who had very little evidence and who had three victims from which they had to get as much as possible. If one looks as the affidavits of all of them they say pressure was being put on them to find the President's son alive. If one looks at this broad picture one can see clearly that the act which these people were committing was directed at a political opponent and not just against private individuals. These were private individuals but they were linked to these organisations in the forms that I have just described. Then, Mr Chairman, to proceed and look at whether the act, or mission, or offence was committed in the execution of an order or on behalf, or with the approval of the organisation or institution, liberation movement or body of which these people were part. I think my remarks that I have just mentioned apply the same here. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE ME HOLE 61 ADDRESS This was an attack more on the institution of Illisolomzi and its supporters than it was an attack on the individuals themselves. Brutality of an extreme kind was meted out to these people, but this was not just blind violence, this was violence meant to extend extreme terror to anybody who might want to join this organisation. JUDGE WILSON You keep saying, extend extreme terror, none of your applicants said that that was their intention. They said they were trying to interrogate these people, didn't they? Where do you get this 'extreme terror' from? MR HOLE Honourable Committee member, a reading of all these applicants' affidavits can only leave one with one impression, that extreme terror was meted out to these people. JUDGE WILSON Yes, for the purpose of getting information. Not - you're broadening it to say it was to terrify members of the organisation. They were ill-treating, brutally ill-treating these people to make them talk. Is it not what they have all said? MR HOLE That is what they have all said yes. Now, if I may proceed, Mr Chairman, to deal with the relationship between the act these people have made themselves guilty of and the attainment of their political objective. It is my submission that submitting these people to this kind of inhumane treatment was done with a view to getting these people to answer certain questions and to confess to certain deeds. The result of information that would have been obtained by them through this method would have been given to the Commander of these operations and in turn one can assume that the Commander would have given these to the President. The information they would have given would naturally have been intelligence that would have been useful for the political EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 62 ADDRESS situation assessment. Information that would have been useful for the President's son to be found or information that would have been useful for them to know who exactly had sprung Charles Sebe from jail. In my submission the acts they had made themselves guilty of were not remote from the political objective that they wished to seek. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Hole, would a reasonable policeman have used the same means which your clients used subjecting the women under the humiliation they were subjected to in order to extract the information that they intended to extract from their victims? MR HOLE Thank you, Honourable Member of the Committee. The idea of a reasonable policeman is a very elusive one. Certainly I cannot be heard to submit that we know of any in South Africa. The evidence we have heard from these people is that the methods that they have used on these people, except for Isixwapaxwapa which they admit for the first time, was what was used for interrogations throughout, when they joined the Elite Unit. JUDGE MALL That may be so, but the brutality of their methods, are they not out of all proportion to the kind of information that they were seeking from a girlfriend or Sebe or the sister of a girlfriend of Sebe for example? They are totally disproportionate to the objective that they had in mind. MR HOLE Mr Chairman, if one looked at the events in Ciskei at the time, if one looked at the fact that it was their own Commanding Officer who had been abducted, drugged and put in the boot of a car and taken by an opposing party to Transkei and which Transkei was hostile to the state that they was serving, one can understand how such extreme measures were used. Also looking at the fact that these ladies were transported from Douglasdale Farm in the boot of a vehicle to the police EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 63 ADDRESS station, one would assume that there would be people at the police station who would have seen them off-loading people from the boot. If one reads that scenario, Mr Chairman, one can see that it appears that even the Uniform Branch who might have been manning the Alice Police Station did not care two hoots about what was happening to these people, otherwise they would not have transported them to a police station in the boot of a car. This is the level to which the members serving in the Ciskei Police Force at the time had sunk. The transporting of a person in the boot of a car was also done to Gen Kwane Sebe, the son of the President, according to the affidavits of these people, when he was taken to Transkei. In my submission Mr Chairman, these applicants have made a proper case for the extension of amnesty to them. I would, on the basis of this and my argument and the evidence that have tended before this Committee, request that the Committee may be pleased to grant amnesty to each one them in respect of each of these offences. Unless the Committee wants to hear me on any further aspect, that would be my address on the merits of the matter. Thank you Mr Chairman. JUDGE MALL Mr Brink do you wish to address us? MR BRINK ADDRESSES Yes I will not be long. I see it is five past one, but if we could continue for a few minutes, it will give us time to get the next application ready if we conclude this one. Yes, I have no difficulty with the aspects of full disclosure Mr Chairman and members of the Committee at all. And I also have no real difficulty with all things being equal, no difficulty with an assault which may have been perpetrated on a political detainee. The question is where does one draw the EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR HOLE 64 ADDRESS line? You have here men having been charged with crimen injuria. That, in this particular case, amounts to an offence of a sexual nature. I have grave difficulty in seeing how an offence of that sort can be said to have been committed with a political objective in view. I accept what my colleague has said in regard to the situation then prevailing in Ciskei. I accept that there was an awful atmosphere, and I accept that everyone was being rounded up whenever there was the slightest suspicion of disloyalty to government - (Background very noisy.) JUDGE MALL You cannot compete with that noise. MR BRINK Certainly not. As I say I accept that there was -the situation then prevailing in Transkei was such that anyone who was vaguely suspected of being disloyal to the government would have been picked up, detained, beaten up, tortured and so on, yes, but the essence of the problem with which you're faced is whether an offence of a sexual nature can be regarded as having been committed with a political objective. JUDGE WILSON It was not of a sexual nature in any normal sense of the word was it, Mr Brink? It was torturing someone by administering some liquid to their sexual organs, it was not for any sexual gratification. MR BRINK Well, I say this with respect if you have a naked woman and you tell her to take off her underclothes, make her lie on the floor and then you mock at her genitalia. JUDGE WILSON You humiliate her as much as you can. You kick her around. It was absolute brutality and humiliation. It was not in the normal thing that people commit sexual offences to achieve some sort of sexual gratification. There is no suggestion of that here, is there? MR BRINK Well, if there had been improper sexual behaviour, EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR BRINK 65 ADDRESS in the sense that improper advances had been made I take your point, but there must have been some degree of gratification for these men to behave as they did, but I accept what you say, Mr Chairman, I accept what you say in regard to the - it wasn't a sexual offence in the ordinary accepted meaning of the term. I take the point. In conclusion then I ask the Committee to please have these two victims referred, in terms of Section 22, to the Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee. JUDGE WILSON It is a relevant factor isn't it which hasn't been mentioned by the applicants that while the attack on Miss Msutwana was taking place it was done in the presence from time to time of a Lt Col who was in charge of them, who walked in and out, who took part in the assault at times. He knew what was going on. MR BRINK Yes, that is relevant in regard to all of this. I presume or condoning the behaviour. Of course there is no evidence that that person himself gave a specific order for the assaults to take place, but he certainly associated himself with them. JUDGE WILSON Well he kicked her himself. And the other factor that I think is relevant to indicate the attitude of the Ciskei Police as a whole is the effort made by Col Simandla, to make known what had happened to him and was just ignored. He told the Station Commander, he said oh nothing can be done about it. He told a visiting Colonel, nothing was done. He saw the injuries, but apparently no further reports were made, it was allowed to drift on, which would appear to indicate that it was accepted by those higher ranking and in other things that this was the way things happened in the Ciskei at the time. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR BRINK 66 ADDRESS MR BRINK I agree. JUDGE MALL Mr Hole do you wish to reply? MR HOLE I have nothing to say in reply. Thank you Mr Chairman. JUDGE MALL The Committee will consider the application and make known its decision in due course. Thank you. We will adjourn now and resume at two o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE