amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-03-18 EAST LONDON 2 M A NQWENDU, MZIMHLE ELVIS BAM, DUMOSANI ERNEST MBHEBE, NDONISO MDYOGOLO, S V MPHAMBANE, SAKOMZI BHEQESI, ANDILE H GOLA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54711&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/el/el2.htm MR BRINK The first matter will be that relating to Mr Mqwendu, Bam and the others. My friend Mrs Collett appears for these applicants. I may say that there was only one person interested. He was notified, that is Sidentini Mplabani. Notice was sent by registered post. It was returned by the post office. The Investigation Unit in the region endeavoured to trace him at Gobozane Location without success. Whether he has got wind of the matter I do not know. I see if he is here. If I can call his name? JUDGE MALL Just give me the name again. I could not hear you properly. The name of the interested person. MR BRINK Sidenti, S-I-D-E-N-T-I and the surname, M-P-L-A-B-A-N-I, Mplabani. And that is the widower of the woman who was killed. I will just see ...(intervention) MS KHAMPEPE Who is it Mr Brink? Who is Mr Sidenti? The person that you have just told us was notified, Mr Mplabani. What relation is he ...(intervention) MR BRINK He is the widower of the deceased. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 116 MR BHEQESI Is Mr Sidenti Mplabani here? MS KHAMPEPE Can I just pronounce it properly? Mr Sidenti Mplabani. Is he present? Mr Mplabani? It does not look like he is present, Mr Brink. MR BRINK No. Thank you. JUDGE MALL Very well. You may proceed. MR BRINK The applicants are present and I believe - whether they are sitting in the order, I wonder if they could be in the order that No 1 will be Mr Mqwendu, No 2 will be Bam, No 3 Mr Mbhebe, No 4 Mr Mdyogolo and so on. If that could be arranged. MISS COLLETT I first intend calling Sakomzi Bheqesi who will give us the background to the incident that has occurred on the day in question for which the applicants seek amnesty. SAKOMZI BHEQESI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MISS COLLETT Now Mr Bheqesi are you a member and were you a member of the ANC Youth League? MR BHEQESI I am a member of the ANC Youth League at Gobozane. MISS COLLETT Did you live in what was known as the former Ciskei? MR BHEQESI Yes I was residing there. MISS COLLETT Now, what was the situation in the Ciskei that led to this incident that occurred for which you people seek amnesty? MR BHEQESI On the release of comrade Nelson Mandela in 1990 and the unbanning of all political organisations we here in Gobozane, we also saw ourselves involved highly in the struggle. This started by showing unity here in Gobozane. We were all members of the ANC National Congress. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 117 MR BHEQESI There was no other party than the ANC. On the release of Mandela in 1990 we held a meeting as the youth of Gobozane where we decided everything that belonged to the past Government, where the past Government gave the people cards called 'snips', so that they should pay for those cards. Those cards people would be able to earn money at certain times, but we as the youth were not aware as to exactly how do people go about getting these cards, but we knew that our parents were paying for these cards. We united as the youth in many numbers in Gobozane and we decided to collect all these cards from all the Council committee members. We collected all these cards from the community and it was mainly kept by adults. We collected those cards and burnt them. As time went on one day we held a meeting at a school in Gobozane where the ANC Youth League and the ANC and Sanco jointly, held a meeting where people decided collectively that there must be change in the community. After lengthy discussions we decided amongst the people that should change in the community, the Councillors must step down and a Chairperson must be elected by the masses and govern in Gobozane. We had a Councillor from the past regime in Gobozane by the name of Nsibele Mona. He was at that meeting on that particular day. He supported the idea and thus there was harmony when we all took one decision. As time went on we had to elect a Chairperson to lead the community. We heard that Brig Qozo who was the leader of Ciskei is calling all the people who were Councillors to Bisho and this we heard through the radios. And even Mr Nsibele Mona went to that meeting in Bisho. It was heard EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 118 MR BHEQESI that the Brigadier told the Councillors that they must go back to the villages and govern again. And they must not associate themselves with the ANC. Mr Mona came back from Bisho and he called all his previous committees. Mr Mona held several meetings with these committee members in his house and this he did in the evenings because he knew that us as the community we did not want him as the chief. And when he came back from Bisho he did not tell us about all these changes that he is bringing about. MISS COLLETT Was there conflict between any particular parties in the Ciskei at that stage? MR BHEQESI I do not understand the question. MISS COLLETT Mr Bheqesi I said to you, was there conflict between any two political parties in the Ciskei at that stage? MR BHEQESI Yes, at that time the African National Democratic Movement was not active in Gobozane. We as the African National Congress we were united at that time. MISS COLLETT Did you experience any problems belonging to the ANC Youth League and residing in your area at the time? (The applicant's microphone was not switched on.) MISS COLLETT I will repeat the question. Did you find any problems belonging to the ANC Youth League and living in your area? MR BHEQESI We did not have any problems until ADM became involved in our community. That is when we could not see eye to eye with each other. MISS COLLETT And what was the reason for that? MR BHEQESI ADM in the community was supporting the Chief that he must lead the community but the ANC and the African EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 119 MR BHEQESI National Youth League and Sanco did not see it fit that the Chief must lead the community. It saw that the Chairperson elected must lead the community. MISS COLLETT So what evidenced this conflict in the area? MR BHEQESI They wanted the Chief and we did not. And that is what lead to the conflict. MISS COLLETT And was the conflict violent? MR BHEQESI Yes, there was a lot of violence then in Gobozane. MISS COLLETT What used to happen? MR BHEQESI At a meeting held by the ANC Youth League under the oppression that we survived in Gobozane due to the ADM and the Peaceful Security who were protecting the Chief led to us deciding that in order to show our resistance we must go to all the houses of the ADM members and burn them down, in order to show our feelings and the anger and hurt. MISS COLLETT Had the ANC main structure attempted to negotiate or attempted to settle the dispute that existed in your area? MR BHEQESI The ANC tried under which the Youth League fell, to convince the Chief to step down, but all in vain. There were no changes and there was no improvement in our lives. We were just being continually suppressed. MISS COLLETT As far as the ANC Youth League was concerned was there freedom of association and freedom of political organisations in the area? MR BHEQESI Please repeat the question? MISS COLLETT As far as the ANC Youth League was concerned was there freedom of political movement and association in your area at that time? MR BHEQESI We were not liberated at all. We were not EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 120 MR BHEQESI granted the opportunity to show our political affiliations and even our meetings were disrupted. There was no free political movement in Gobozane at that time. MISS COLLETT So was it a decision of the ANC Youth League structure to go and burn the houses of the Headman and the ADM members? MR BHEQESI Yes it was our decision as the youth. MISS COLLETT And did you in fact do that? MR BHEQESI Yes we did that. MISS COLLETT Can you mention some of the places that you burnt, some of the people whose houses you burnt? MR BHEQESI Yes, I can. Mr Mbuzo Lifeni's house was burnt, one out of the two houses that he had. He tried to defend himself by fighting against the youth with an axe, but the youth overpowered him and he died. The house of Mr Mona who was the Chief was very difficult to burn because of the Security. And the Security was shooting at that time. His shop was burnt down. It was not in his house. It was burnt down to ashes. Mr Hotozo Jesele's house it was all burnt down. All five rooms. His combi, a 16-seater was burnt down to ashes as well and his Isuzu van. He also tried to fight against the youth but he was overpowered. Mr Msimbiti Mlindi's house, who was a member of the ADM was not easy to burn down because his son was a member of the ANC Youth League. He begged with us not to burn down his house. We must only do whatever we want to do to his father and therefore we assaulted his father and he sustained injuries. Mr Mbhebe as well we burnt his three-roomed house as well to ashes. He also tried to defend himself and the EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 121 MR BHEQESI family but we overpowered them, but they managed to hit one member of the ANC Youth League, Mr Tsehu who was found dead the following day. He was hit, they said that they extracted his eye. And there was a Mrs Nohombile Mphambane. Her house was not burnt down but only shattered her windows, because at that time the Brigadier's security forces were already there, but her son pleaded that we must not burn the house because only she was an ADM member not himself and his father, but we had to run away at the time because the security forces had already arrived. MISS COLLETT Did you regard these acts that you performed in the name of the ANC Youth League as essential for political emancipation? MR BHEQESI I will say so as a member of the ANC Youth League. All theses things that we did, we had hope that this would have a landmark on the politics. MISS COLLETT After you committed these particular incidents did you actually go to the ANC structure office in King Williamstown? MR BHEQESI Yes, we did go there. MISS COLLETT Did you inform them of what you had done? MR BHEQESI When we got to the ANC's buildings in King Williamstown we told all the comrades who were there as to what happened. MISS COLLETT Did anybody express disapproval of your actions? MR BHEQESI Amongst the comrades who were there no one criticised or disapproved but they just provided us with security. MISS COLLETT In other words you believed that they EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 122 MR BHEQESI supported what you had done as a main structure? MR BHEQESI Yes it is so. MISS COLLETT What happened after these incidents? Did you go into hiding for a while? MR BHEQESI Each and every individual escaped because we knew that by killing in the community one knew that it was endangering one's life. Therefore we ran to different places, Cape Town, Dimbaza and all other places. MISS COLLETT And the ANC main structure was aware of this? MR BHEQESI Yes they were aware. MISS COLLETT Subsequent to this there was a meeting at which you were not present, is that correct, which led to the incident for which you seek amnesty? MR BHEQESI Yes there was a meeting that was held on the 26th of April 1993 and I was absent. MISS COLLETT But you became aware of the fact that this meeting decided that the deceased in this particular incident should be killed? MR BHEQESI Yes I had the knowledge. I said whilst I was on my way to school I met members of the ANC Youth League, it was round about six o' clock in the morning. They told me on the bus about the decision taken and I supported the idea after they had given me the reasons as to why they wanted to kill the deceased. MISS COLLETT And is it correct that you thereafter associated yourself with the killing of the deceased in this matter? MR BHEQESI Yes I did. MISS COLLETT Can you tell us what particularly you did to the deceased? MR BHEQESI The deceased, we went her house. They saw us EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 123 MR BHEQESI approaching her house, toyi-toying on the 27th. She ran away with her two children and approached the veld and we chased after her. We found her near a river and we caught her. The comrades who caught her were around about 10 to 15. She was already bleeding at that time on the head and on the chest. MISS COLLETT Is that when you arrived, she was already bleeding? MR BHEQESI Yes she was already bleeding when I arrived. MISS COLLETT And what did you do to her? MR BHEQESI The comrades came with her towards me. They were bringing her to the group that I was with. I was amongst the first group that was going to arrive at the incident. And when I got there I wanted to find out where were they taking her because I said we had decided that we are going to kill Mrs Mphambane, but then they said that we are bringing her to the comrades. I picked up two stones. I hit her twice on her head and on her chest. She never fell. And I picked up another stone and hit her on her head, but she did not fall. I picked up the bigger stone of all the crowd and hit her on her head and she landed on her backside and that was her final fall. As she died there. MISS COLLETT Was your intention to assist in killing her? MR BHEQESI My intention was to assist in killing her according to the decision taken by the comrades. MISS COLLETT Now was this lady who was killed an ADM member? MR BHEQESI Yes she was an ADM member. MISS COLLETT At this stage I wish to call another one of the youths to testify as to what actually took place at the EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 124 MR BHEQESI meeting prior to the death of this lady. I have finished with this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MISS COLLETT JUDGE MALL Hold it. There may be questions that may be asked of this witness before you call the next one. MISS COLLETT I have no problem with that, Judge. I might just indicate Judge, that he was not part of the actual meeting where the decision was taken to kill this lady. JUDGE MALL Yes it is quite clear from his evidence that he took part and made sure that she was killed. MISS COLLETT That is quite so. JUDGE MALL Mr Brink have you any questions to put to the witness? MR BRINK Yes, I will not be long Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK You've told the Committee that the deceased was a member of the ADM, is that the African Democratic Movement? MR BHEQESI Yes it is so. MR BRINK Was the ADM a formal party or organisation with structures such as the ANC had? MR BHEQESI ADM was not a similar party like the ANC, but I do not have full knowledge of their motives, but as the ANC we were against the leadership of the Chief. We as the ANC we believed that she formed part of the past regime that suppressed the citizen of South Africa. She was a symbol of apartheid. MR BRINK Did the deceased's husband hold office in the ADM or was he merely a supporter? MR BHEQESI Mrs Mphambane was known as the organiser of the African Democratic Movement and her actions showed that EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR BRINK 125 MR BHEQESI clearly. MR BRINK Now, obviously the ADM was unpopular as far as you and the ANC Youth League were concerned, but can you tell me whether there was any large-scale support for the ADM in your region even though you objected to that organisation? MR BHEQESI They had very few supporters. MR BRINK Are you saying that it was a minority trying to control the majority? MR BHEQESI Yes it is so Sir. MR BRINK Who was the Chief against whom objection was raised, Mr Bheqesi? What was his name? Can you remember? MR BHEQESI It was Mr Mtsibeli Mona. JUDGE MALL Can I just - can you just spell his name for me please. MR BHEQESI M-T-S-I-B-E-L-I, Mtsibeli. JUDGE MALL Yes. MR BHEQESI Mona, surname, M-O-N-A. JUDGE MALL Thank you. MR BRINK And was he an ADM member? MR BHEQESI Mr Mtsibeli Mona was a member of the ADM, because Brig Qozo said that each and every chief must be a member of the ADM, and thus we believe that he was a member of the ADM. JUDGE MALL Is that all? MR BRINK Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK MS KHAMPEPE Mr Bheqesi, how did - you in your evidence you touched on the fact that the ADM inhibited the ANC from exercising free political activities? MR BHEQESI Yes it is so. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/EASTERN CAPE MS KHAMPEPE 126 MR BHEQESI MS KHAMPEPE How did it do that? MR BHEQESI Firstly, it did that by trying to nominate the chiefs as the leaders and they used to assault us and they would kidnap some of us and keep them in the Chief's house so that they wanted them to reveal all the activities of the ANC in the community. There was no free political activities because of the ADM. They used to go to funerals in full ammunition. The people lived in fear all the time. JUDGE WILSON There seemed to have been quite a lot of them if they could do all these things. MS KHAMPEPE How were your meetings disrupted by members of the ADM? MR BHEQESI Our meetings were disrupted by members of the ADM because the Peace Force Security that was residing in Gobozane were associated with ADM. They knew all about the meetings that we were holding at the school. They were aware that it was ANC meetings and they were always in the Chief's house. MS KHAMPEPE Sorry to interrupt. I just want to know how your meetings were interrupted by them? If you can just confine yourself to answering my question. The manner in which the ADM members disrupted your meetings. MR BHEQESI ADM members would sent the Peace Force Security, they would not go there personally, but would send the Peace Force members. They disrupted the meetings of the ANC Youth League and the general ANC membership. Members of the Ciskei Police and Police Force Security dispersed us with teargas and the Chief was there in the school surroundings although he did not enter the premises. That is when we decided that it was the ADM that disturbed everything. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MS KHAMPEPE 127 MR BHEQESI MS KHAMPEPE Who is this Peace Force? Is it a part of the Ciskei Police Force? MR BHEQESI The Peace Force is a security that was there before the leadership of Brig Qozo and they were protecting the Chief but I would not really say what their relationship is with the Ciskei Police Force, but they were offering ADM members protection. JUDGE WILSON Was Brig Qozo ruling the Ciskei at this time? MR BHEQESI Yes he was ruling Ciskei at that time. JUDGE WILSON And was the ADM the party that supported him and the party that he in turn supported? MR BHEQESI Yes because he was the leader of ADM. JUDGE WILSON And they wished to retain the system of chieftainships in the Ciskei? Is that so? MR BHEQESI Yes it is so. JUDGE WILSON And that is what the Government of the Ciskei wanted? MR BHEQESI Yes it is so. JUDGE WILSON But you as the ANC Youth League did not like this and that is what led to the trouble? MR BHEQESI That is one of the things that led to the trouble. JUDGE WILSON And that is why you burnt their houses and killed them. Is that so? MR BHEQESI Yes it is so. JUDGE MALL Do you have a copy of your application form before you? MR BHEQESI No I do not have one. JUDGE MALL Will you please make that available to him. I want you to turn to paragraph 11 of your application EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE JUDGE MALL 128 MR BHEQESI form. Have you found it? Now before you read it I want to ask you a question. You took part in the killing of this woman because you felt yourself bound by a decision that was taken at a meeting that she should be killed, is that it? MR BHEQESI Yes it is so. JUDGE MALL Now just read paragraph 11.A to me. Read it aloud. MR BHEQESI "There was no approval from the organisation, because we didn't plan to kill anyone. This was an accidentally act. Our plans was to negotiate with her". JUDGE MALL You understand what that is? MR BHEQESI Yes I got that. JUDGE MALL It says that this was an accidental act. You have told us that you intended to kill her. MR BHEQESI Yes it is so. JUDGE MALL Now which is right? MR BHEQESI When I met the youth in the morning they told me that they had reached a decision in the previous meeting that Mrs Mphambane must be killed. Although the youth in that meeting, it was clear that there were few of them who were not supporting the idea, but finally it was decided that she must be killed. JUDGE MALL I am not asking you that question, I understand that. You have already told us that it was decided at a meeting that she should be killed. That was conveyed to you. You then took part in the killing of this woman. That is not my question. You have already given that as an answer. My question now is, you say here in you EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE JUDGE MALL 129 MR BHEQESI application form that this killing was accidental. That you did not intend to kill. MR BHEQESI We had the intention to kill Mrs Mphambane. JUDGE MALL So why do you say here in this application form that it was accidental? MR BHEQESI The murder of Mrs Mphambane was due to a decision taken that she must be killed. The reason why I wrote this in the application in front of me it is because I was told that this was discussed, although there were people who were opposing the decision. The killing of Mrs Mphambane was not an accident. It was decided the previous day. JUDGE MALL Yes. JUDGE WILSON But why write it was "an accidental act"? "Our plan was to negotiate with her", why say that in your application? You swore that it was true didn't you? MR BHEQESI The reason why I wrote this on my application form is because us as the ANC we had no intention to kill people who were against us, but I tried to indicate in my application form that her murder was not the main objective. We were just trying to negotiate with her, but although it was a decision taken I still say that it is accidental. JUDGE MALL I do not understand how anything is accidental when you go and throw stones at that woman to make sure that she dies. How can that be accidental? MR BHEQESI The reason why I said she was killed accidentally is the fact that when we filled in the form we were doing it on our own. We were just trying to show that her death was an accident because although we did kill her that was not our main purpose, but we were just trying to show our feeling that her death was accidental. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE JUDGE MALL 130 MR BHEQESI It was the main objective to kill her although we had to kill her in order to protect ourselves. JUDGE MALL Yes, I am now not talking about what your main objectives were. We are just confining to this little point here you see. So you now admit that what you have said here in this form was not true? MR BHEQESI It is the truth Sir. JUDGE MALL How can it be the truth when you say that it was accidental? MR BHEQESI It is the truth in the sense that the death of Mrs Mphambane as I have stipulated on the form was an accident although it was a decision taken that she must be killed, but her killing will state that it was a clear accident that happened. JUDGE WILSON And further in your application you said, didn't you, that when she ran away you went home in order to leave your uniform and your books? You didn't arrive at the place where Mrs Mphambane was murdered. You met the Youth League when they were returning to chase her. Is that not true? That's not true is it? MR BHEQESI That is the evidence that I gave in court in order to protect myself. The genuine truth is that I did not go home. I chased her together with the youth. That is what I said in court in order to defend myself. MS KHAMPEPE I think that you have given us two annexures. There is Annexure A which sets out your participation and Annexure B which sets out the evidence that you gave to the judge presiding at your criminal trial, which you have indicated that was in fact not the right evidence. Annexure A is in fact what happened. MR BHEQESI Yes it is so. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE JUDGE WILSON 131 MR BHEQESI JUDGE WILSON And in Annexure A you said, "There were some of us who arrived late and did not beat her". MR BHEQESI Yes it is so Sir. JUDGE WILSON That wasn't you was it? MR BHEQESI When I got there I assaulted her. I was not in the group that later arrived who found her dead. There were girls whick were comrades as well who arrived after she was dead. JUDGE MALL What did she die of? MR BHEQESI Mrs Mphambane was killed through stabbing, through being stoned and by knobkieries. I cannot actually say which one led to her final blow. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Bheqesi, what is troubling me is what you are saying in your evidence and what is contained in your application. If you check page three of your application form you state that the intention of approaching Mrs Mphambane was not to kill her but to dissuade her from further participating in the activities of ADM. That what is contained in your application is further amplified by Annexure A, which you annexed to your application. MR BHEQESI Yes it as I have put it down here. Why I say it in this Annexure is because we were against what Mrs Mphambane is doing altogether and our intention was to kill her. JUDGE MALL Do you understand the meaning of the word 'democracy'? MR BHEQESI Yes I understand it. JUDGE MALL Does it mean that a person can belong to any political party in which he has faith and has a right to belong to any political party? EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE JUDGE MALL 132 MR BHEQESI MR BHEQESI Yes it is so Sir. JUDGE MALL Now if the ANC were in a majority as you say in your area, and there were a small minority who wanted to belong to a different political party, did they not have a right to belong to a political party? MR BHEQESI We as the ANC stressed that everyone has got the right to join their political organisation of their choice, but the problem with the African Democratic Movement is that Mrs Mphambane took steps that frightened us and she went to another village to find people who should assassinate the leadership of the ANC. We were not against the fact that they belong to their political organisation but their decision to terrorise the African National Congress leadership led to the conflict. MS KHAMPEPE Now you seem to have been motivated by the fact that Mrs Mphambane had organised assassins to kill members of the ANC. MR BHEQESI Yes it is so. MS KHAMPEPE Now where did you get that information that she was behind organising people to kill members of the ANC? Was that information obtained from someone who was reliable? MR BHEQESI We got this from a reliable person. Firstly Mrs Mphambane - before I met the ANC on the bus it was already known in the community that she wants ADM members to assassinate the leadership of the ANC. And this became true when one of our leaders who by going to this particular village in the afternoon on the 26th saw her, although he didn't see her coming back with the ADM or as to what she was already doing, but people really believed that she was intending to do what she was doing, although there was not EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MRS KHAMPEPE 133 MR BHEQESI enough evidence. And that is when we believed that what has been said is true and we decided as comrades that we should protect ourselves because we did not know who was going to die in the long run. We were all scared. JUDGE MALL So a group of grown-ups, men, young men, strong young men, because there is a rumour that she might want to attack and kill members of the ANC, go and kill a woman. I find that very difficult to understand. Just because she has different views from yours. MR BHEQESI At that time in the villages in Ciskei it was very difficult to undermine even ideas that came with females, moreover if they belonged to the ADM. We were bound to take the decision that we took regarding Mrs Mphambane, because the ADM that she approached, in that particular village, was heavily armed and dangerous. And we heard in that particular village that this ADM has killed ANC members in that village and therefore we had to take the steps that we did in order to protect ourselves. JUDGE WILSON How many ADM members did you kill in your village? MR BHEQESI It is two, including Mrs Mphambane. JUDGE WILSON I thought you told us more than that when you were burning houses? MR BHEQESI In my explanation I stated that it is Mr Mboso Lifeni who died during the burning of the house but a member of the ANC was hit by Mr Headman Bembe, Mzwetu Tseu who died and Mrs Mphambane is the one member who died in the ADM in Gobozane. JUDGE MALL Any re-examination? MISS COLLETT Thank you Mr Chairman. Just a few questions. RE-EXAMINATION BY MISS COLLETT I see that you filled in EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/EASTERN CAPE MISS COLLETT 134 MR BHEQESI your application form in English. MR BHEQESI That is so. MISS COLLETT Are you fluent in English? MR BHEQESI Although I have passed matric I am not so fluent in English. MISS COLLETT Now, what you have told the Commission here today that there was a plan and that you associated yourself with that plan or that decision to go and kill Mrs Mphambane. Is that the truth? MR BHEQESI Yes it is so. MISS COLLETT You have given different versions up until today. Is that correct? MR BHEQESI Yes it is correct. MISS COLLETT And do you confirm those versions that you have given up until today are not the whole truth? MR BHEQESI They are absolute truth. That is exactly what I did. MISS COLLETT What you have said today, is that the truth, the whole truth? MR BHEQESI Yes it is. MISS COLLETT Now, if you look back on what you did at that time in the name of the ANC Youth League, have you any comments on that? MR BHEQESI Yes there is. MISS COLLETT What is it that you wish to say? MR BHEQESI In the past struggle in our ANC, there were no other things that we intended to do. We were very active and very conscientious and moreover, the death of Mrs Mphambane hurts a lot. We were not so politically aware. The youth in Gobozane were not so politically aware. What I can say now, I am very sad with the past, because at that EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 135 MR BHEQESI time our political struggle was still very new and we were just struggling to achieve the new South Africa. That is all. MISS COLLETT And do you regard yourself as being more mature now? MR BHEQESI Yes I see myself as a freed person and should I get forgiveness I am prepared to play a role in building the new South Africa, because I am now politically aware and on my release I am prepared to have a role in the building of South Africa. MISS COLLETT Do you realise that the taking of life is not justified? MR BHEQESI Yes, I see. MISS COLLETT Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MISS COLLETT JUDGE MALL Yes, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 136 MR MPHAMBANE MISS COLLETT Mr Chairman I would now like to ask Sekumbuso Mphambane to testify because he was the person who was present at the meeting that took the decision to kill the deceased in this matter. SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MISS COLLETT Now Mr Mphambane, have you heard the evidence of your co-applicant in this matter? MR MPHAMBANE Yes I have heard the evidence. MISS COLLETT Do you confirm that the evidence which he gave regarding the political situation as the ANC Youth League saw it in Ciskei is consistent with that of your opinion? MR MPHAMBANE Yes. MISS COLLETT Were you a member of the ANC Youth League? MR MPHAMBANE Yes it is so. MISS COLLETT Now was there a meeting that was held at a school in Gobozane Location on the 26th of April 1993? MR MPHAMBANE Yes Ma'am. MISS COLLETT Were you present at that meeting? MR MPHAMBANE I was present. MISS COLLETT Did that meeting take place after the incidents to which your co-applicant has testified regarding the houses of the Headmen, etc? MR MPHAMBANE Yes it is so. MISS COLLETT What happened at that meeting? MR MPHAMBANE It was the 26th of April 1993. The comrades of the ANC Youth League were from court. They had been accused of arson. As the youth of the ANC league we waited for them at school, ...(indistinct) school. When our comrades arrived they gave us a report, according to the court cases. They told us that the cases had been EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 137 MR MPHAMBANE postponed. After that we had our regular meeting on Mondays. In the meeting we discussed Mrs Mphambane's issue. The youth discussed this. As we were discussing this issue the youth got excited about what the Chairperson was saying about Mrs Mphambane. Apparently Mrs Mphambane had gone to a village called Bele. She was trying to get assistance to overcome the ANC executives. The youth discussed this issue. As we were discussing this issue one of our comrades came. He also became part of the meeting. He told us that that afternoon he saw Mrs Mphambane going to Bele, but he did not see her coming back. As we heard that report her son came in, Lukane Mphambane. As he heard what was being said about his mother, and as he was aware of the decision that would be taken by the youth, he asked us that whatever we do to his mother, he said we can do anything to his mother but not to the house that belonged to his father. The youth then decided that Mrs Mphambane must be killed. We then decided going to Mrs Mphambane, that evening. It was before eight o'clock. We got to her house and we did not find her, although the doors were opened we could see that she had escaped. We then held a small meeting as the youth. We decided that we must go back to school to sleep there. We went as the youth back to school. However, before we got to the school one of our comrades, Nqolo Mzitji(?) was saying that we should not sleep over at the school, because the police would find us and Mrs Mphambane must have gone to the police for refuge or perhaps had gone to call the ADM. He then assured us that there were three rooms at his house EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 138 MR MPHAMBANE that we would be able to sleep in. We were very pleased because we were scared to sleep at the school, because the police would arrest us. We then went to Nqolo Mzitji's house. We got up in the morning, the next day, that was the 27th of April 1993. We waited for a bus at the bus stop. We were looking for Mrs Mphambane at the bus because we thought that she would use the morning bus to go to the police to report us. The bus arrived. We asked the driver if we could go in to search. He allowed us. We could not find her in the bus. We did, however, found one of our comrades, Sakomzi Bheqesi. He was going to school. We then made him get off the bus. We forced him to join the struggle because we too were missing out on school. As a member he did not give us too much trouble. He joined us. We then concluded that we must go to look for Mrs Mphambane at her house. We then went to her house. Not far from her house we saw her running towards the forest. We ran after her. It is not that we discussed that we would run after her. We just spontaneously ran after her. She ran with two of the children. When we got towards the top, because she was at the bottom her daughter Kanyiswa stopped, saying to her mother that she must not run away, she must stop, because the youth had arrived. Her daughter said she must ask for forgiveness. She did not listen. She just kept on running. I ran passed Kanyiswa because I was not chasing after her but after her mother. As the youth I was the first one, one of the first ones to get to Mrs Mphambane. I took stones because I saw the other members throwing stones at her. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 139 MR MPHAMBANE I also picked up stones and started throwing them at her. I then said to myself- she then said to me that I, as Victor's son was in the Youth and within the ANC. She was surprised. We continued to stone her. We took her to yet more youths. The other members then asked, where are we taking her because she was meant to be killed. We continued to throw stones at her. She fell on the ground. The others arrived. She was already on the ground. They continued to throw stones at her. Some were beating her up on the head with canes. After that when we were sure that she died we left as the comrades, we left her body there. We saw her children on the way. They asked if we'd killed their mother. We told them that we'd killed her and we then proceeded to ask which side they belonged to. The daughter then said she is an ANC member. Then she was asked to sing one song of the struggle. She sang. We then went to the bus stop trying to catch the eight o'clock bus. The bus was there at the bus stop. There were people going to King Williamstown. We asked everybody going to Cape Town to get off. We said this bus belonged to the comrades and it is going to town. Everybody got out of the bus. We got on. We did not pay. This bus took us to King Williamstown. We were not all able to fit into the bus. There were so many of us. Others were even on top of the bus. Others got transport from around the village. When we got to town the bus driver, his name was Nzima Sinjokonja he closed the door. He did not want to open the door for us. He said he is going to tell his superiors that we got into the bus without paying. As the other buses came, one of the windows was opened. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 140 MR MPHAMBANE We got out through the window, some of us. I was one of the people who got out of the bus. We went to the ANC offices at the Old Mutual in King Williamstown. We then divulged all. After that they gave us both a resting place and a hiding place because the police were roaming around King Williamstown. We heard that those that were in the bus had been arrested. In the afternoon I left the comrades in the office. I left for Cape Town, where my family stayed. There was no other place I could go to. I went to Cape Town that same day. Then in 1994 I was arrested over the same incident. I was sentenced in 1995 on the 28th of February. I was sentenced to nine years imprisonment, in Mdantsane Prison. Thank you. MISS COLLETT What was the purpose of going to the ANC office in King Williamstown to report this incident to them? MR MPHAMBANE We wanted them to know what we have done as members of the ANC Youth League. MISS COLLETT Was disapproval or discipline ever metered out to you by the ANC main structure? MR MPHAMBANE They were not totally against what we have done. MISS COLLETT Do you mean to say by that that they approved of what you had done? MR MPHAMBANE I could say that because they never rebuked us. MISS COLLETT At that time, did you think that what you were doing was wrong or not? MR MPHAMBANE We thought that what we had done was good and righteous, because in our village, Gobozane, we wanted EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 141 MR MPHAMBANE liberation. MISS COLLETT Did you believe at the time that what you were doing was for the political struggle and for emancipation? MR MPHAMBANE Yes, because the presence of the ADM in our community was oppressive. MISS COLLETT Now, do you stand by what your co-applicant said that there was an intention to kill this lady on that particular day? MR MPHAMBANE Yes, we had intentions of killing Mrs Mphambane on that day. MISS COLLETT And you associated yourself with that intention? MR MPHAMBANE Yes, I absolutely associated myself. MISS COLLETT Now, prior to today have you given other versions wherein you have not told the truth? MR MPHAMBANE Yes, in the application that I made I think there would be a discrepancy between the application and what I say now. MISS COLLETT And is it also correct that you didn't give this evidence that you have given today at court? MR MPHAMBANE It is so. MISS COLLETT Now, do you confirm that what you have told the Commission today is the truth? MR MPHAMBANE It is the absolute truth. MISS COLLETT And if you look back on the deed in retrospect is there anything that you would like to comment? MR MPHAMBANE Yes there is. MISS COLLETT What is that? MR MPHAMBANE The presence of the ADM in our community was EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 142 MR MPHAMBANE oppressive. We then had to do something. I feel great remorse for having taken somebody's life, but there was no other way that we could do this. We were the youth, we are the youth. We did not have a full grasp of political movements and steps. We did this because of the energy of youth. We did not go through the correct thought processes or channels. We did not think of the repercussions either. MISS COLLETT Do you regard yourself as being more matured now? MR MPHAMBANE Yes I would say so, because at the time it was in 1993, in retrospect and by reflection I realise that this is the time of democracy and politics are no child's play. MISS COLLETT Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MISS COLLETT CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK I am afraid at one stage during the course of your evidence my translation device went off, but I picked up something about someone spoke to you and said, leave my father's house alone but you can do whatever you like to my mother. As I understand it, was that the daughter or son of the deceased? MR MPHAMBANE It was the son. MR BRINK And that he indicated that he did not mind if you killed his mother as long as you left his father and his father's house alone? MR MPHAMBANE He did not say that he would not mind or be hurt. He just said that we could do anything we wanted to do to the mother, but not to the father's house. I do not think that he thought that we would kill his mother. He thought that we would beat her up, not take her life. MR BRINK Was he a member of ANC Youth League? EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR BRINK 143 MR MPHAMBANE MR MPHAMBANE I am not sure, because he would miss most of the meetings. The first time I saw him was the meeting that we went to on the 26th of April. MR BRINK Was he at that meeting? MR MPHAMBANE He came to the meeting but it was already in the middle. MR BRINK Do you know what the policy of the ANC was at this time in regard to the killing of oponents, political opponents? MR MPHAMBANE We were not very politically aware in a literal sense at the time, therefore we did not know the policy of the ANC. MR BRINK Now, the Chairman of the Committee you will recollect questioned the previous applicant in regard to paragraph 11. Would you look at that same paragraph? It seems to be in all the applications, it seems to have been compiled by the same person in prison, is that correct? In other words, all the applications which are together appear to be in the same handwriting. Was it another prisoner who assisted you, or a prison warder, or who assisted you? MR MPHAMBANE No, these applications we made ourselves. Some of us had problems, because we could not write properly. I was the one who could write properly. MR BRINK So are the applications in your handwriting, in the main? I am not criticising you, I just would like to know, to get clarity. I am not trying to trap you, I just want to find out. MR MPHAMBANE It was me Sir, it is my handwriting. MR BRINK So then it was you who referred to, if you have a look at that paragraph to which I referred, paragraph 11.A on page 5 of the application and your application as well, EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR BRINK 144 MR MPHAMBANE talks about, "...no approval from the organisation, because we didn't plan to kill anyone, this was an accidental act". Can you explain why it was an accidental act if you intended to kill Mrs Mphambane? And why all the applicants seemed to, as far as I see, say the same thing? MR MPHAMBANE As we all made the applications together, it would be difficult for others to remember properly about what exactly what happened in the meeting, the procedures. I based this application on the statement that I made in court. I had in mind that I would be given an opportunity to speak out and say what happened on that day. JUDGE WILSON Are you seriously suggesting that young men who attended a meeting at which you decided to kill a prominent member of your community, would have difficulty in remembering that you decided that and would think it was accidental? Do you ask me to believe that? MR MPHAMBANE I am not seriously saying that some of us forgot. What I am trying to reveal is that perhaps they had forgotten as to exactly what decision was made at the meeting. Secondly, this part of the application we compared to what we said in the court of law. JUDGE WILSON The fact that you were filling in an application for amnesty and swearing to the correctness of it did not influence you in any way. You were quite prepared to put something in you knew was untrue. MR MPHAMBANE It did influence us, because we have to tell the truth so that we can be freed as prisoners. JUDGE WILSON Why did you lie then and say, because what you are telling us now it was a lie, we did not plan to EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE JUDGE WILSON 145 MR MPHAMBANE kill, this was an accidental act. That is a lie, a blatant lie, isn't it? MR MPHAMBANE What we have said here that we did not plan to kill her, this was evoked in a meeting that we should kill her. I think this is what this paragraph is trying to clarify. JUDGE MALL ... by the paragraph it can't, because a decision is taken. Everybody is aware of the decision. They go looking for this woman. They do not find her. The following day they go there determined to carry out that decision. They succeed in carrying out their decision and you, then you say here in the application form, "it was accidental." Now you have passed matric, and I am sure you must admit that by the most stretch of the imagination can it be said that Mrs Mphambane had died as a result of an accident? Her killing was intentional, is that not so? MR MPHAMBANE We had intentions Sir, to kill her. We had intentions to kill the late Mrs Mphambane. MS KHAMPEPE You see Mr Mphambane, the difficulty that we have is that it is not only paragraph 11 that you have been referred to wherein you seem to indicate that the decision of the ANC Youth League that was taken was not to kill her, but to discuss with her about her involvement or the allegations that she was involved in organising ADM members from Bele Location to kill ANC members. In your application when you were responding to the questions in paragraph 9, you go on to say, "The Youth League organised a meeting to tell Mrs Mphambane that what she was doing you were against". EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MS KHAMPEPE 146 MR MPHAMBANE And you go on to explain in your Annexure A in which you said contained the true fact of what happened that day, you go on to say. "... the Youth League decided...", do you have your Annexure A, now on the third line of your Annexure A you say, "The Youth League decided to go to her house to discuss the above matter with her and we were a group of about 300". Now unless you want to tell us that it was another meeting wherein the Youth League took a decision to meet with Mrs Mphambane in order to discuss the allegations that she was organising members of the ADM to kill the ANC members, we cannot, I cannot reconcile what you are saying now in respect of paragraph 11, to what is also contained in your application in respect of the other paragraphs. MR MPHAMBANE There was one meeting on the 22nd, sorry the 26th of April, there was no second meeting on that particular day. What I am referring to where I say that we tried to discuss with Mphambane, this was just to show that the Youth League made efforts to try to talk to Mrs Mphambane. These were in vain, because when we tried to go to her house she would chase us away, swearing at us. JUDGE WILSON When you went to her house that night you say the house was open, she was not there and you went back to the school, is that so? MR MPHAMBANE Yes Sir. JUDGE WILSON ...(indistinct) MR MPHAMBANE Yes it is the truth, because we went back to school, but we did not go inside the school. JUDGE WILSON You see when you made your application you said, EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE JUDGE WILSON 147 MR MPHAMBANE "When we approached her house she ran away before listening to us, what we were going to say, and we did not chase her". That is not the same as coming and finding her house empty, is it? But you now say you did not go into school, you told us that one of the comrades told you not to go, the police would find you there and you went to this house where you stayed in the three rooms. Do you remember telling us that? MR MPHAMBANE Yes Sir I did say so. JUDGE WILSON Now in your application in Annexure A you say, "When we arrived at the school hall we decided to wait for her until the following morning. During the course of the night we were busy discussing other matters pertaining to the way African Democratic Movement members were treating us. We stayed in the hall for the whole night". Where is this, going to somebody else's three rooms, and once again, a completely different version. Which is the truth? MR MPHAMBANE The truth is we ended up going to our comrade's house. By saying that we went to sleep at the school in my application, because there were so many of us, we could not all fit in into those rooms. (Tape ends.) .... whether they should go to the house or not. This is where I think that they went to sleep at the school. JUDGE WILSON What you said is, "We stayed in the hall for the whole night". "WE", it's not other people, is it? That is not true is it? I just want to know why you put so many things into EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE JUDGE WILSON 148 MR MPHAMBANE your application that don't accord with the evidence that you have given here today. MR MPHAMBANE The reason why there is a discrepancy between my evidence here today and my written application, what I am saying here today is the truth. My saying that we slept at the school hall the whole night, we were one, I was one with the people who slept over at the school. MS KHAMPEPE When you were completing this application form were you and your friends all together, probably in one place? MR MPHAMBANE Yes we gathered in the same place. It was difficult to fill in this form as individuals because some of us are almost illiterate. MS KHAMPEPE And were you under some kind of stress? MR MPHAMBANE Yes, because when these applications arrived we had to fill them in and complete them the same day. We were not given time to fill them in properly or give proper detail. We were just given these application forms and were told to fill them in very quickly. We were in a hurry. MS KHAMPEPE Who told you that you had to complete them quickly? MR MPHAMBANE It was at the prison. They would tell us that they had to post them immediately. MS KHAMPEPE Were you not told that you could be legally assisted in the completion of such application forms if you so requested? MR MPHAMBANE No we were never told that. I was surprised when I read a book on the amnesty of the Truth Commission that, because this application is quite lengthy, there must be someone who is legal who would help us. I was surprised because when we filled in this form the circumstances were EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MS KHAMPEPE 149 MR MPHAMBANE contrary to that. JUDGE MALL It may be convenient to take the adjournment at this stage. HEARING ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MS KHAMPEPE I think the Interpreters did not pick up your response. (Question inaudible) MR MPHAMBANE She was my aunt. Her husband is my father's younger brother. MS KHAMPEPE Did you know the deceased to have been a very active member of the ADM? MR MPHAMBANE Yes. MS KHAMPEPE And was she active because she was the organiser of the African Democratic Movement? MR MPHAMBANE Yes, because she would go to Bele to organise ADM. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Mona was the Chief at the time. MR MPHAMBANE Yes. MS KHAMPEPE And by virtue of his position as Chief, was he the Chairman of the Council, you have actually - I think the previous applicant has referred to him as a member of a Council. Was he a Chairman of the traditional Council - Mr Mona? MR MPHAMBANE Yes Mr Mtsibele Mona was a Chief at the village. We heard that Brig Qozo, saying that all the people that were headmen should go back to their status and they should join the ADM. He came back and he resumed his seat as Headman again. MS KHAMPEPE Is he presently still alive? MR MPHAMBANE Yes he is still alive. MS KHAMPEPE Was he not considered a threat to the ANC EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MS KHAMPEPE 150 MR MPHAMBANE to the extent that Mrs Mphambane was? MR MPHAMBANE Yes he was perceived as a threat just like Mrs Mphambane. When he accepted his seat as a Headman, that caused the violence and chaos in the village. MS KHAMPEPE Thank you. JUDGE MALL Did you see the persons that actually stabbed her? MR MPHAMBANE Yes Sir. JUDGE MALL Besides a knife and stones were any other weapons used? MR MPHAMBANE Yes there were other weapons, like canes. JUDGE MALL By canes, you mean sticks? MR MPHAMBANE Yes Sir. JUDGE MALL How old was she? Do you know? MR MPHAMBANE Are you talking about Mrs Mphambane? I am not sure how old she was. I think she was over 50. JUDGE MALL How old are her children? MR MPHAMBANE She has elder children than me. I am not sure exactly when they were born, but she has two that are older than me. She has had four others, one of them is my age and three of them are younger than me. JUDGE WILSON Well the two who were with her that day, what age were they? MR MPHAMBANE I am not sure, perhaps 16 or 17 years of age. JUDGE MALL I want you to listen to what my notes say about your answers to the questions on a certain aspect of your evidence. Among other things you said, because you all were young you did not have a full grasp of politics, do you confirm that? EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE JUDGE MALL 151 MR MPHAMBANE MR MPHAMBANE Yes Sir. JUDGE MALL Then you said it was the energy of the youth that drove them to do what they did, is that right? MR MPHAMBANE Yes Sir. JUDGE MALL And that they did not think of the consequences. MR MPHAMBANE Yes Sir. JUDGE MALL But you believed that you acted righteously, because in your village you wanted liberation, because of the presence of the ADM in your community you felt oppressed. MR MPHAMBANE Yes Sir. JUDGE MALL So it was not the Nationalist Government that was oppressing you, it was the ADM that oppressed you. MR MPHAMBANE Yes Sir, it is so because the outskirts of Ciskei was under Brig Qozo. JUDGE MALL ... village how the youth - I am now not talking about how you had seen other parts of the country reacted, I am talking about in your village. MR MPHAMBANE Yes Sir. JUDGE MALL And did you really believe that by killing this woman you are going to feel liberated? MR MPHAMBANE Yes we believed that, because with past deeds of peoples' houses being burnt down her house, the windows got broken, but she did not stop evoking violence in our village. JUDGE MALL So all the burning down of the houses that we have heard today done by the youth and in the process of which somebody died, indicated the kind of lawlessness on the part of the youth. Is that right? MR MPHAMBANE Yes, because it was not right to take EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE JUDGE MALL 152 MR MPHAMBANE somebody's life. JUDGE MALL To get onto the bus and order all the passengers off the bus, to commandeer the bus, and not pay anything and to order the driver to go where you want him to go, that is also a kind of lawlessness, was it not? MR MPHAMBANE Yes Sir, it was breaking the law. JUDGE MALL It was the reckless disregard of the rights of other people. MR MPHAMBANE Yes Sir, you can put it like that, but it was the spirit of the day. JUDGE MALL In other words lawlessness was the spirit of the day, or perhaps anger was the spirit of the day. MR MPHAMBANE Yes Sir, as I tried to explain before, that was the energy, the spirit of the youth in a political setting. JUDGE WILSON What you wanted you could do. If you wanted a bus you could take it, throw everybody else off, that was what your feelings was, was it not? MR MPHAMBANE Yes Sir that is what we did on that day. JUDGE WILSON After having brutally murdered this old woman you came back where her children are standing waiting, and they ask whether you have killed their mother, you say yes, that is correct. MR MPHAMBANE Yes Sir. JUDGE WILSON And then you start questioning them, what side did they belong to and when this young girl said she belongs to the ANC you made her sing a song, knowing her mother is lying dead a few yards away. What sort of behaviour is that? MR MPHAMBANE As I have said before Sir, that we were young, we did not think properly, when we killed their EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE JUDGE WILSON 153 MR MPHAMBANE mother we were in the spirit. JUDGE WILSON You have told us that you went to King Williamstown to the ANC Headquarters, tell me who you spoke to there? MR MPHAMBANE There was a comrade who was the President of the ANC Youth League at the border, we referred to him as Shoes but his proper name I do not recall, also Toto. JUDGE WILSON Were these two with the ANC Youth League that you were talking to? Not the ANC itself, not the responsible members of the Party? Is that what you are now saying, you went to King Williamstown to the Youth League? MR MPHAMBANE We went to the offices of the ANC Youth League, it was the Executive of the ANC Youth League that we went to. JUDGE WILSON You see I have totally misunderstood your evidence. I understood that you went to the ANC as such and that is why your counsel asked you whether they were - you were asked and you said they were not totally against what you had done, I took it that was - it was not the ANC it was still the Youth League that all of you were going to chant before? MR MPHAMBANE The ANC Youth League is formed by people. Those officers were comprised of the Executive of the ANC Youth League. JUDGE WILSON We have heard enough about the acts of the members of the ANC Youth League to know what regard they had for the rights of others. You did not talk to any mature proper member of the ANC? Senior member? Your acts were never approved by the ANC as such. Is that the position? MR MPHAMBANE Yes Sir we never spoke with the body of EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE JUDGE WILSON 155 MR MPHAMBANE the ANC per se we spoke with the Youth executives at the ANC offices. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Mphambane to your knowledge was the ANC local branch aware of what you did? MR MPHAMBANE I think they became aware after we had run away with the bus. MS KHAMPEPE I am talking about the local branch of the ANC and not the ANC Youth League. Was it aware of your conduct? MR MPHAMBANE We did not report to them that we would do this. They heard our report after we had left. MS KHAMPEPE So they became aware of what you had done to Mrs Mphambane and the circumstances under which what you did, happened. Did they distance themselves from your conduct? The local branch. MR MPHAMBANE They knew that we killed Mrs Mphambane, and they also were aware of what Mrs Mphambane was doing. MS KHAMPEPE How did they know, or how did they become aware of what happened to Mrs Mphambane? Who gave them the report? MR MPHAMBANE At the time, especially that particular day they did not get a report from the youth, because we were running away. They must have gotten a report from comrades that had been arrested when they came from court and were going back to the village. MS KHAMPEPE So you cannot say whether they became aware of had happened in 1993? You cannot say that as a fact? You can simply presume that they became aware of what had happened after the .... MR MPHAMBANE No, I am not emphasising, because I did not go as an individual. They must have gotten a report from EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR BRINK 156 MR MPHAMBANE the comrades that have been arrested. On that particular day they must have heard because the police went to fetch the corpse. JUDGE WILSON Wouldn't everyone in the village have been talking about this murder by 300 ANC Youth League people? Her children would have been talking about it. MR MPHAMBANE Her children got on the bus with us that day. Therefore, what I am saying is that they must have heard when the police went to fetch the corpse. JUDGE WILSON Did you take the children with you? MR MPHAMBANE Yes Sir we took them with us. MS KHAMPEPE Were you ever admonished by any member of the ANC in your village? MR MPHAMBANE Yes, when we were in jail, after we had been arrested they came. JUDGE MALL Any re-examination? MR BRINK Sorry, I have not quite finished. JUDGE MALL Well, I am sorry Mr Brink. MR BRINK I shall not be long. I just have one question in the light of that. JUDGE MALL Do carry on. CROSS-EXAMAINTION BY MR BRINK (cont) Were all your co-applicants involved in the killing, that is the actual killing of Mrs Mphambane? MR MPHAMBANE Yes Sir, all of them were involved. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK JUDGE MALL Any re-examination? MISS COLLETT Thank you Mr Chairman. RE-EXAMINATION BY MISS COLLETT Now, when you filled in this amnesty application form, did you know exactly what was required of you when filling it in? EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 157 MR MPHAMBANE MR MPHAMBANE It was the seven of us that filled in the form. MISS COLLETT Did you know what information exactly was required of you? What you exactly had to say in that application form or were you uncertain? MR MPHAMBANE We were not certain, but we had a good idea, because we read it, we filled in what we could. Some parts were quite difficult, but we endeavoured to fill in the form because we had to give it back immediately, so that it could be posted. MISS COLLETT Now you referred to lawlessness of the youth. Sorry before I ask you that, were you offered your forms in Xhosa at all, or were you only given English forms? MR MPHAMBANE We were only given English forms. MISS COLLETT Would you have been more comfortable with filling in the form if it were in Xhosa? MR MPHAMBANE Definitely. MISS COLLETT Now, you have referred to the lawlessness and you have agreed that there was a certain amount of lawlessness on the part of the youth. Do you stand by that? MR MPHAMBANE Yes. MISS COLLETT As far as you are concerned, was this consistent with the behaviour of other ANC Youth League members throughout the country at the time? MR MPHAMBANE Yes at the time. The areas around us were behaving in a like manner. MISS COLLETT Did you ever hear of the ANC distancing themselves from the actions of the ANC Youth League? MR MPHAMBANE No, never. MISS COLLETT Did you believe that your actions were part of a legitimate struggle towards political liberation? EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 158 MR MPHAMBANE MR MPHAMBANE Certainly. MISS COLLETT The Executive of the ANC Youth League, did it report to the ANC main structure? MR MPHAMBANE I am not sure but I think that they must have reported to the ANC regional border committee. MISS COLLETT Did you as members of ANC Youth League ever receive information or reports from the main ANC structure via your Executive? MR MPHAMBANE We did not get a report. MISS COLLETT Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MISS COLLETT JUDGE MALL Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 159 MR MBHEBE MISS COLLETT Mr Chairman it is my intention to call each of the further five applicants individually, so that they can just tell the Commission what role they actually played on that day in the actual killing. JUDGE MALL In the actual killing. MISS COLLETT In the actual killing. JUDGE MALL Yes. MISS COLLETT I will confirm with them that they associate themselves with everything that the other two applicants have already said. JUDGE MALL Yes. MISS COLLETT I call Dumisani Mbhebe. DOMUSANI MBHEBE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MISS COLLETT Mr Mbhebe were you a member of the ANC Youth League in 1993. MR MBHEBE Yes. MISS COLLETT Now you have heard the evidence or testimony of your two previous co-applicants. Do you associate yourself with everything that they have said? MR MBHEBE Yes I do. MISS COLLETT Do you confirm that it was correct and that it pertains to yourself as well? MR MBHEBE Yes. MISS COLLETT I am simply going to ask you now did you associate yourself in the intended killing of the deceased in this matter? MR MBHEBE Yes. MISS COLLETT What role did you play? MR MBHEBE After we got to Mrs Mphambane she had been bleeding. I picked up a stone, threw it at her, it got her at the back of her head because I was throwing the stone EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/EASTERN CAPE MISS COLLETT 160 MR MBHEBE from her back. After she had fallen I hit her yet again. MISS COLLETT Now, how do you feel about the fact that in the struggle for your political objectives you killed a person, now? MR MBHEBE It is painful and I feel remorse because I took part in taking her life. Now I do realise that we were not supposed to have done that, but because of the spirit of the day I found myself in such a situation. MISS COLLETT That is the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MISS COLLETT JUDGE MALL Mr Brink? NO EXAMINTION BY MR BRINK JUDGE MALL Yes, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/EASTERN CAPE MISS COLLETT 161 MR GOLA MISS COLLETT Mr Chairman I now ask for Andile Gola to take the stand. ANDILE GOLA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MISS COLLETT . MISS COLLETT Mr Gola you have heard the evidence of your co-applicants? MR GOLA Yes. MISS COLLETT Do you confirm that the evidence that they have given is correct and that you associate yourself with that? MR GOLA Yes I am involved. MISS COLLETT Is it true what they have told the Commission? MR GOLA It is the truth. MISS COLLETT Now I want to refer you to the actual killing of the deceased. Do you confirm that it was an intentional killing on the part of the youth? MR GOLA Yes it was an intention. MISS COLLETT What role exactly did you play in the death of the deceased? MR GOLA I was one of the first ones that arrived. She just stood as we were running after her. I stood behind her. She said that I must forgive her. She will join the ANC. I then said she must go and tell the community. When everybody came she came towards me. I took out a knife and stabbed her. MISS COLLETT Why did you stab her despite the fact that she had said that she was asking for forgiveness? MR GOLA Because I saw her coming towards me. I was not sure whether she was being sincere or not. MISS COLLETT So is it your evidence that you did not EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 162 MR GOLA believe her? MR GOLA I did not believe her at all. MISS COLLETT Now she died as a result of this attack on her by the youth. MR GOLA Yes. MISS COLLETT Looking back retrospectively, how do you feel about the fact that you took a life of a person in your political struggle? MR GOLA I feel a lot of remorse. MISS COLLETT Why is that? MR GOLA Because when you sit down and think that somebody's life and the gravity of somebody's life is not a light thing. MISS COLLETT Are you sorry for what happened on that day? MR GOLA Yes I am sorry. MISS COLLETT That is the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MISS COLLETT JUDGE MALL Mr Brink? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK I just want to clear up one point. When you saw the deceased, was the group who was approaching some distance away? MR GOLA Yes. MR BRINK So you were quite close to her? MR GOLA Yes I was very close to her. MR BRINK And she said that she sought forgiveness and promised to join the ANC. MR GOLA Yes she did say that. MR BRINK And she was unarmed? MR GOLA No, I did not see any weapons. She just had a small blanket around her. MR BRINK Having told you that she repented she moved EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MR BRINK 163 MR GOLA towards you, why didn't you then call upon the others in this group who were now approaching to hold it. Here is a woman who now repents and wishes to join us, or join our movement, or the ANC. MR GOLA Because the people were very angry when they got there. I could not talk to them. MR BRINK But why did you stab her? Here is a woman who said she repents, she wants to join the ANC, notwithstanding which you take you knife and you stab her. Why? MR GOLA Because she was coming towards me. I was protecting myself. It was self-defence. MR BRINK Protecting yourself from an unarmed woman when you had a knife. A woman who said that she sought repentance, would join the ANC and you were defending yourself. Please explain that? JUDGE WILSON And a woman who was over 50 years of age. MR GOLA I was protecting myself because she was coming towards me in a hurry. MR BRINK With what? With what was she coming towards you? Here is an elderly woman ...(intervention) MR GOLA She had a blanket around her. I did not know what she had underneath that blanket. I was scared that she would take my knife too, because I was tired. JUDGE WILSON How old were you at the time? MR GOLA I was 17 years of age at the time. JUDGE WILSON And you were scared that this old woman of 50 might take your knife? You seriously ask us to believe that? MR GOLA Yes I was scared. MS KHAMPEPE Are you saying that if she had not come towards you you would not have stabbed her? EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MS KHAMPEPE 164 MR GOLA MR GOLA I would not have stabbed her. I would just have followed after her. I would have just taken her to the rest of the group. MS KHAMPEPE But, what was your intention to run after her, if it was not to stab her? Had there not been a decision to kill her? MR GOLA The intention was to kill her. MS KHAMPEPE I think Mr Gola, you must stick to the truth. That is a fundamental requirement to your application. JUDGE WILSON Why did you draw your knife if you were frightened that she might take it away from you? MR GOLA I took my knife out because when the group was approaching she ran towards me. I did not know why she was running towards me. And I took out the knife to protect myself, because I was tired as well. MR BRINK No I have nothing further. The Committee has taken it out of my hands now. No, I have nothing further, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK JUDGE MALL How many times did you stab her? MR GOLA I think it was twice. I am not sure, because I have never stabbed anyone before. JUDGE MALL Where did you stab her? MR GOLA Towards her face. JUDGE MALL Did anybody compel you to do that? MR GOLA She compelled me because I realised that even after the first stab she was charging towards me still. JUDGE MALL So even after the first stab you saw her charging towards you and that is why you stabbed her a second time. You feared that she was going to go for your knife ...(intervention) EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE JUDGE MALL 165 MR GOLA MR GOLA Yes I stabbed her a second time. JUDGE WILSON And she had still not drawn a weapon. MR GOLA No, except that she kept on charging towards me. JUDGE MALL When did you join this group that chased after her? MR GOLA I joined the group after the bus stop. JUDGE MALL You joined the group willingly because you knew where they were going? MR GOLA Yes, I was aware of what they were going to do because I was at the meeting. JUDGE MALL So it was quite clear - it did not occur to you that you should not join them? MR GOLA Yes, I knew where they were going. JUDGE MALL And nobody compelled you to join them, that is correct, isn't it? MR GOLA Nobody forced me to go. JUDGE MALL I want you to look at your application. Attached to your application are two documents in handwriting. One is called Annexure A and the other is Annexure B. Is that your handwriting in Annexure A? MR GOLA Somebody was writing on my behalf in this application. JUDGE MALL Annexure B, is that also somebody else who wrote on your behalf? MR GOLA Yes Sir. JUDGE MALL And were you satisfied with what he had written there on your behalf? MR GOLA I would say I was satisfied because he was writing on my behalf. JUDGE MALL And you signed it, Annexure B. Is that your signature? Look at Annexure B. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE JUDGE MALL 166 MR GOLA MR GOLA Yes I signed. JUDGE MALL I want you to tell me, what is meant by this statement where it says, the last paragraph "The above is my statement I made in the court. It was untrue, because I took part in the killing of Mrs Mphambane". That is correct, isn't it? MR BRINK Mr Chairman, I do not think you are reading from the right place. This applicant appears, he is Gola and he is - Annexure G, or Bundle G, Gola. He does have an annexure. JUDGE MALL I thought it was D. MR BRINK No, no. Is you have a look at the index you will see Gola, Number 7 Gola, is G. D, is Mdyogolo. This applicant is A M Gola and he is G. JUDGE MALL I am sorry, I withdraw all the questions I put to you. I made a mistake. I mistook your name for the other person, with a similar name. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Gola what kind of a knife did you use to stab the deceased? MR GOLA It was a small knife, a fish knife. It was a pocket knife, a fish knife that I would keep in my pocket. MS KHAMPEPE And why did you bring along that knife on that day? Was it for a particular reason? MR GOLA Because back home in the village we would carry a knife all the time in the pocket. We would slaughter sheep, cows ... MS KHAMPEPE Thank you. JUDGE WILSON Was this knife suitable for slaughtering cows? MR GOLA Yes, it was suitable. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE JUDGE WILSON 167 MR GOLA JUDGE WILSON It must have been quite a big knife? MR GOLA It was a small knife. MS KHAMPEPE I suppose it was small, but very sharp. MR GOLA Yes it was sharp. JUDGE MALL Any re-examination arising out of what has been said now? RE-EXAMINATION BY MISS COLLETT Thank you Mr Chairman. Just a few things. When you associated yourself with this group who intended to kill the deceased, did you also intend to participate if you could? MR GOLA Yes. MISS COLLETT And if the opportunity presented itself for you to have stabbed the deceased you would have done so with that knife? MR GOLA Yes I would have done so if I would have been given the opportunity. MISS COLLETT And in fact that stabbing that you did do with that knife assisted in bringing about the death of the deceased, didn't it? MR GOLA Yes, it is so. MISS COLLETT You at no stage disassociated yourself with the intentions of the group. It was at all times your intention with the group to kill the deceased. MR GOLA Yes it was an intention. MISS COLLETT Even after she had asked for forgiveness? MR GOLA Yes, because I did not trust that she was sincere. We did not trust that she was sincere. MISS COLLETT It still remained your intention to kill her? MR GOLA Yes, because she was not trustworthy. MISS COLLETT Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MS KHAMPEPE 168 MR GOLA NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MISS COLLETT . MS KHAMPEPE It wasn't because she was not trustworthy, Mr Gola, there was a decision already taken to kill her. Is that not the reason why you participated? MR GOLA Yes, that is why I participated. JUDGE MALL Yes, thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 169 MR BAM MISS COLLETT Mr Chairman I call Mzimphle Bam. Mr Chairman it is B in your papers. JUDGE MALL Thank you. MS KHAMPEPE Your full names? MZIMPHLE ELVIS BAM (sworn states) MISS COLLETT Mr Bam were you a member of the ANC Youth League in 1993? MR BAM Yes. MISS COLLETT You have heard the testimony of your other co-applicants. Do you associate yourself with that and is it the truth? MR BAM Yes that is the truth. MISS COLLETT Did you associate yourself with the actions of the ANC Youth League on that day and intend to kill the deceased in this matter? MR BAM Yes. MISS COLLETT Did you go along with the group when they chased the deceased in this matter? MR BAM Yes I was together with them. MISS COLLETT Where in the group were you? MR BAM I was at the back of the group. MISS COLLETT Did you inflict any physical injury yourself on the deceased? MR BAM No. MISS COLLETT Why was that? MR BAM Because when I arrived there she was already dead. MISS COLLETT If you had been one of the first to arrive there would you have assaulted the deceased with the intention of killing her? MR BAM Yes. MISS COLLETT So your evidence is that at the time you got EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 170 MR BAM there it would have been a pointless exercise? MR BAM Can you please repeat the question? MISS COLLETT Is your evidence that at the time you got there it would have served no purpose in you assaulting the deceased because she had already been assaulted and was dead? MR BAM Yes. MISS COLLETT Do you confirm that you associated yourself with the actions of the people that were inflicting the physical harm to the deceased that caused her death? MR BAM Yes. MISS COLLETT Do you also confirm that you intended that she should be killed? MR BAM Yes. MISS COLLETT How do you feel now, looking back retrospectively, about the fact that you associated yourself with the intention to kill a person who ultimately died? MR BAM I feel very bad about this. Firstly, in the Mphambane family, yes at that time we were forced to act the way we did, but now today I feel very painful about this matter and to the Mphambane family I ask for forgiveness. MISS COLLETT Now, why do you say you were forced to act as you did at that time? MR BAM The reason is that all that happened in the village at that time, I was part of that group, although I did not injure her but if I was the first person to arrive there I would have taken part in injuring her, but when I arrived she was already dead. MISS COLLETT Do you confirm that this was an act that you believed was committed because of the political struggle that existed at that particular time? EAST LONDON HEARING AMNESTY/E CAPE MISS COLLETT 171 MR BAM MR BAM Yes I do confirm that. MISS COLLETT That is the evidence, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MISS COLLETT MR BRINK I have no questions thank you, Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK JUDGE WILSON Were you part of the group that chased her? MR BAM Yes I was part of that group. JUDGE WILSON So these various other statements you put up in your application were completely untrue? First of all you put up a statement, Annexure B which you say, is a true statement, where you said you were looking for your grandfather's cattle, goats and cattle. Do you remember that? MR BAM Yes I do remember that. JUDGE WILSON And that was all untrue? MR BAM That is what I said in court. It was a lie. JUDGE WILSON