amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-03-30 EAST LONDON 1 PATRICK THOPELA MASEKO https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54712&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/el/eln1.htm (TEN MINUTES LOST DUE TO EQUIPMENT FAILURE) MR MASEKO It was four of us, we started on three operations. We had three groups, the first one was assault group, the second one the support group, the third one was a cut out group. MR NTONGA Who was in the assault group and how many were there? MR MASEKO I can't remember not unless I can page through the document. MR LAX You'll find it on page 4 and 3. MR MASEKO I was with Mazi in the support group and Boponi, there was Kembe, there was Ianda, there was Haspa who was called P.B. that was the assault group. In the support group there was Jomo, Pagati, Jomo was called Pagati. There was Liza who was called Mpule, there was Kagis who was called Lungu and the other one it was myself, in the cut out group I was called Njebe. MR NTONGA Were you alone in the cut out group - with somebody else? MR MASEKO There were two of us it was myself and D.K. who was called Roobooi. MR NTONGA When you got to the University tell the Commission how did you carry out this raid. Did you plan before you get into the university? MR MASEKO Yes we planned before and we planned according to what was supposed to happen in the group, the support group was going to get inside and the support group was going to give them assistance in whatever that was happening so that if when the time to go out - if it was time to go out then they were going to help us, they were going to help the group that was inside and the cut out was left outside to try and terminate anything that would happen that would disturb the people who were already working inside. MR NTONGA What happened when you arrived there having planned all this and having divided yourself into three groups? MR MASEKO They went inside, they followed the instructions as they were given and assault group was the group to go inside and find some money and the support group was giving them assistance but when they weren't inside it happened that there were policemen in private clothes and they started to shoot. Then the others shot back that's where one of the people passed away and the two others were injured. I was injured, I didn't see what happened inside because I was outside, all I know is what I got from the people. MR NTONGA Who was in command of the unit when you carried out this operation? MR MASEKO The whole unit - the overall commander was myself and the three groups in the assault group, the support group -for each of them there was a separate commander so that the things would go as planned without any conflict but I was the overall commander. MR NTONGA Where exactly were you stationed during this operation? MR MASEKO I was outside in the cut out group, outside the premises, outside the target area. MR NTONGA And what happened after the assault group had gone inside the auditorium of the university? MR MASEKO I heard the gunshots after they were inside. There was exchange of gunfire and I was behind. I saw one person carrying a gun and he started shooting and I was shot right above the knee. That's where I started looking for cover at the residential area where somebody dressed my wound. It was already far from the car, I couldn't go to the car, I took a taxi. I went through the yard of the University. MR NTONGA Do you know the person who gave you assistance in the Campus? MR MASEKO It was a student, I don't know the name, I just saw the person at that time. I took a taxi, I went back to the spot where we agreed that we were going to meet after the operation and all the members of the unit didn't manage to reach the place. They came the following day, I saw them the following day. They came with all the money that was taken there, I took the money straight to the APLA Administrator in the Transkei Region. That money was about R5000. CHAIRPERSON R5000? MR MASEKO It was R500 000. MR NTONGA Okay, can you tell the commission before you made the raid or operation where did you get the instructions to carry it out? MR MASEKO As we were soldiers, soldiers normally get their instructions from their superiors. My superior at the time it was Lelape Mphalele. He's the one who was giving me the orders. MR NTONGA And after the operation did you report back to your superior? MR MASEKO Yes, after each and every operation you've got to make a feedback and tell exactly what happened in total things that we have taken from wherever, things like money or whatever, we would take them to the Administrator, it was Mandla, the one that I gave him all the things that we got during the raid. MR NTONGA And all this was planned and these were your instructions each and after every raid or operation? MR MASEKO After each and every operation we do a report back. MR NTONGA Page 22 of the bundle there's a list of people in the report made to the administrator. Let's start with that. Did you make this report to the administrator? You submitted an affidavit. MR MASEKO I can't see it. MR NTONGA See this part at 22? MR MASEKO Yes I can see. MR NTONGA Did you make it yourself or did somebody make it on your behalf? MR MASEKO This is not my handwriting but when I look at this report it's like that report the one that I did. MR NTONGA A list of names - there are eight and it does not tally with what you have submitted at page 4 of your affidavit. Can you explain to the Commission the nicknames and who is who? The number is correct, 8. MR MASEKO All these people who are here they had their pseudo names but whenever the people are making the - during the operation, just before the operation people normally get their new names but I can remember two or three of them, of their real names. MR NTONGA So are you saying to the Commission that the people in the report to the administrator are the same as at paragraph 12 of page 4 of your affidavit? CHAIRPERSON Which affidavit are you referring to? MR NTONGA That is page 74 - his affidavit. CHAIRPERSON Page? MR NTONGA 74. His own affidavit. MR MASEKO These people here are the same people but they are different names but they are the same people. MR NTONGA In this report it is alleged that Zambi was the commander. Does Zambi stand for your name? MR MASEKO It's Njebe not Zambi that was myself. CHAIRPERSON What did he say I didn't catch it? MR NTONGA Njebe. When you carried out the operation do you still remember what type of arms were you people carrying? MR MASEKO I can't remember clearly but we didn't have enough because we were eight and we had only seven arms so I ended up with a knife because there was shortage of arms. MR NTONGA So you won't remember what is in this report at page 22? These arms that have been listed down there? MR MASEKO There's a mistake here - there was a mistake we were supposed to be given the arms equivalent to our number but on that particular day there was a shortage. MR NTONGA Is that why you were armed with one Okapi as you say in the affidavit? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR NTONGA After the operation you said you handed over the money to the administrator in the Transkei? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR NTONGA What was he supposed to do with the money? ...[inaudible] in the reference? MR MASEKO Actually if there was no money - planning normally requires money and he would have to take money from the budget of APLA. And the same money would be used because we had a belief that this Boer Regime was the one that was actually oppressing us and part of their policies actually failed therefore, that's why I had to give this money to the administrator. MR NTONGA So are you saying to the Commission that the money was not for your personal gain or unit personal gain but for APLA ...[inaudible] MR MASEKO That's correct sir, that's what I'm trying to say. MR NTONGA You and the unit did not retain any money you handed to the channels ...inaudible? MR MASEKO: That's correct sir. MR NTONGA After you have met the following day with your unit members, what happened? MR MASEKO After we had given them the money they had to go back to their places and I was left in Umtata. They went back to their places, the others. MR NTONGA And you also made a report about the operation? MR MASEKO That's correct sir and in that report I ensured that it was written in my handwriting. MR NTONGA And then at the end of the operation you handed over the money and you made your report? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR NTONGA Let's go back to the auditorium where the robbery took place. MR MASEKO I have a problem when you mention the word robbery because soldiers are not actually involved in robbery they're just repossessing. MR NTONGA I stand corrected. When the assault group went inside the auditorium could you see what was happening there or you knew, just knew what's going to happen because of what had been planned? MR MASEKO I couldn't see because I was outside. I was not able to see everything that was happening even the one who had been injured I wouldn't see him or her but I would responsibility for each and everything that happened there as a commander as I was also working and the instruction and I take full responsibility of the unit. MR NTONGA So there's nothing you can shed or give us more light about what happened inside the auditorium because you were not in a position to see what was happening inside? MR MASEKO Yes, I'm not in a position to tell you because I didn't see anything. MR NTONGA And you already told the Commission that as a leader of this unit, commander, you take responsibility for whatever happened there? Confirm that? MR MASEKO Can you please repeat your question sir. MR NTONGA And you've already submitted to this Commission that as a commander of that unit you take responsibility of whatever happened inside the auditorium? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR NTONGA That's the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTONGA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR K. NODADA MR NODADA Mr Maseko can you throw some light on the preparations before the actual raid at the university? Where did you gather before you proceeded to the university? MR MASEKO Me, myself and who else? Whom are you referring to sir? MR NODADA I'm referring to the people who were under your command, the three groups which you have described as the assault, support and cut off group. MR MASEKO I have already explained that as a commander of the unit I knew where those people stayed, I went to fetch them so that we could start with our mission. MR NODADA Was it your first visit at this university on this day? Were you going to that university for the first time on that day? MR MASEKO No it was not for the first time. MR NODADA So you knew the place very well? MR MASEKO There's no operation that can take place without any recognisance without information - we've got to go there and make a recognisance and get more information about the place. MR NODADA I see. As a person who was in command of this unit, was it your decision not to have a firearm and only have a knife? MR MASEKO Truly I was not supposed to be there but because I wanted to give them the moral support I decided to be with them. MR NODADA Where were you supposed to be? MR MASEKO As a commander they were supposed to work alone and I would get a report from them. MR NODADA When I look at page 22 of the record of the report, that is the page which contains the report that was submitted to this administrator, I see that there were eight firearms that were in your possession, that is in the possession of the three groups and in addition to the eight firearms there was an Okapi knife. Was there anyone of you who had two firearms in his possession? MR MASEKO I have already explained that there's a mistake they listed eight firearms, truly speaking we had a shortage of firearms we had only seven, I already explain that. MR NODADA Yes, now when you say there's a mistake, who made the mistake? MR MASEKO The person who was writing this report. MR NODADA So this report was not written by you? MR MASEKO I said so that this is not my handwriting, I explained that. It was somebody else who was writing under my instruction. MR NODADA Did you read the report before you submitted it to the commander rather to the administrator? MR MASEKO I can't remember. MR NODADA So you are only noticing this mistake for the first time today? MR MASEKO Yes, it's only now that I realise that there's a mistake. MR NODADA For how long had you been a member of the Pan African Congress, APLA - that is the army section of the congress? MR MASEKO As a member of PAC I started in 1986. MR NODADA And you had been involved in a number of operations before you were involved in this one at UNITRA? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR NODADA According to the procedure that you follow what are the instructions when you are sent to go to a place and repossess money or firearms or jewellery. What is the purpose of being armed when you go out there? MR MASEKO We are soldiers first of all and the soldier is always having his firearm. Another thing, whatever can happen as a soldier, you've got to shoot first you must not wait for somebody else to do something before you shoot. Those were the instructions. MR NODADA I want to understand those instructions. What must happen before you can shoot? MR MASEKO When you draw your firearm - as a soldier I will shoot - I won't wait for you to shoot because I don't even know whether you are going to hit me or not but once you draw a firearm I shoot first. MR NODADA I'm made to understand that the purpose of going to the University of Transkei on that day was to get money which had been collected for the registration of students on that day. Is that correct? MR MASEKO Can you please repeat your question sir. MR NODADA My understanding is that the purpose of this operation at the University of Transkei was to get the money that had been collected on that day from moneys paid by students for registration purposes? MR MASEKO That's correct. MR NODADA And if that is then the position you'd only be expected to shoot when there was an imminent attack in the form of either a person drawing out a firearm apparently intending to shoot or some other indication that there was going to be a shooting, is that not the case? MR MASEKO The person didn't intend to shoot but he shot right away. MR NODADA Which person are you referring to now? MR MASEKO It was one of the people who were inside the auditorium. The policeman who was in private clothes. MR NODADA I understand your evidence to be that you do not know what happened inside because you were outside you only heard gunshots, is that not the case? MR MASEKO I said so but I got the report from the people who were inside. They told me when they came with the money, they explained to me what actually happened. Though I was outside but I got the report of what happened inside. MR NODADA So personally you do not know what happened inside and as such you cannot testify about anything that happened except for hearing gunshot from where you were standing? MR MASEKO Yes I said so from the beginning. MR NODADA And you do not know whether those who were shot and injured, killed and injured, some persons inside were justified, I mean in terms of the instructions that you had given to them since you were outside and did not know how they behaved inside? MR MASEKO I don't get your question sir. MR NODADA My question is, you are not in a position to say whether those who were inside actually followed your instructions namely that they should only get money and shoot only when there was an imminent attack? MR MASEKO I said so from the beginning sir. MR NODADA And you know that they got the money and that they also killed persons inside? Did you ask they why they killed and injured persons instead of just taking the money? MR MASEKO I said that the three groups had their own commanders - they explained after that, each commander explained to me the situation what actually happened and each commander was supposed to be my eye, was supposed to keep an eye on my behalf. MR NODADA So you only relied on their report as far as what happened inside and you cannot in this application swear to the veracity of what they said to you? MR MASEKO I said so, I said I was outside, I can't confirm what actually happened because I didn't see anything with my eyes and I'm tired of this question now because I've been telling you that I was outside and now you are asking this question you are phrasing it in different directions but I've told you that I was outside, I was not inside. MR NODADA After you had gathered, after the operation, did you personally prepare a report which you instructed someone to record down? MR MASEKO Yes I asked someone to right down a report. MR NODADA Did you keep a copy for yourself or did you allow the original to go off without a copy remaining in your possession? MR MASEKO I didn't keep any copy. ADV. SANDI Sorry, Mr Nodada, one question on this aspect so that we do not have to come back to it - who did you ask to write the report? MR MASEKO I asked one of the boys who were there. ADV. SANDI You mean someone who had participated in this incident? MR MASEKO No, the person was not there in the incident. ADV. SANDI When you say a person, a boy who was there, where was he? MR MASEKO Some of the APLA members but not the person who was personally there during the incident but just one of the APLA members. ADV. SANDI Thank you. MR NODADA We see on the list of the report that is page 22 that your name Njebe does not appear there amongst the eight people who were in that unit. Is that a mistake? MR MASEKO That is one of the mistakes because I said I'm not Zambi I'm Njebe. I was Njebe. MR NODADA Do you know this Zambi? Do you know this Zambi that is this Zambi whose listed as the commander instead of you? MR MASEKO I said they were actually referring to me but I'm Njebe not Zambi, there's a mistake. MR NODADA So the person you instructed to write the report made a mistake of your name and wrote Zambi instead of Njebe? MR MASEKO That's correct. ADV. GCABASHE Could I just ask, are you saying there is no such person as Zambi? MR MASEKO I said I'm Njebe, there's no one called Zambi that's one mistake and the other one is the once when they said there were eight firearms where we had only seven. MR NODADA So when you are reading this report, you didn't pick up this name Zambi instead of Njebe, you also didn't pick up this mistake of eight firearms instead of seven firearms? MR MASEKO No I didn't realise that. MR NODADA Would you be able to dispute - now we're going back to the auditorium, to dispute that your members who were inside the auditorium just fired shots before there was even a resistance or at least an indication that there was going to be a resistance? MR MASEKO I deny that because the soldiers were taking orders that's why I deny that. They were not doing their own things but they were following orders. MR NODADA You deny it because you believe what you were told by your commanders instead of believing what was seen by eyewitnesses inside? Is that the case? MR MASEKO I trust my commanders. MR NODADA Right, do you have by the way of identification any document other than the letter that forms an annexure to your affidavit that you were a member of the Azanian Peoples Organisation? MR MASEKO I'm sure that they can be able to explain that. APLA members didn't have identity cards, anything that would show because the reason is that those cards would put us in dangers. We wouldn't be able to make card for a lot of people, the card would even fall and get lost and a person would be in danger, a person whose card is lost would be in danger that's why didn't have such I.D.'s. MR NODADA But I suppose there must have been a record in the offices of the - like for instance in the head office of the organisation where the names of members who would not go out with any identification cards were actually recorded? Are you aware of any arrangement like that? MR MASEKO As I was not working in the office I don't know that. MR NODADA Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NODADA CHAIRPERSON Mr Prior? MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Maseko is it correct if I look at page 65 of the bundle, I refer to the statement that was made in Westonaria and this is just by way of background. You indicated that on the 18th June 1986 you left the country, you went to Botswana where you joined the PAC of Azania and stayed there until December '86 where you then left for Tanzania? Is that correct? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR PRIOR So it would seem you joined the PAC outside of the Republic is that correct? MR MASEKO At that time here in South Africa the PAC was not existing. MR PRIOR Alright, you've gone through the statement that forms part of the bundle, page 65 onwards and I'm only referring to the background, I'm not referring to any specific incident where you were involved, where you tell about your training where you underwent in Botswana and Rhodesia as it then was known, Boputhatswana and so on. Do you agree with the facts that relate to your background and your training? MR MASEKO Yes sir. MR PRIOR When you say you did not have an identification card, are you aware of any record of your membership of APLA and or the PAC being kept anywhere by the organisation or were no such records ever kept? MR MASEKO I didn't get that question sir? MR PRIOR Are you aware of any record kept of your membership or your status within APLA or the PAC whether it was in the head office, overseas or whether it was in the country, at any place, are you aware of any record being kept of your membership within the organisation APLA? MR MASEKO I don't know anything about that, I agree that there could be something like that but I didn't know anything. MR PRIOR Now at page 67 of the bundle you indicated in that statement that from Botswana and Lesotho you were told to go to the Transkei and there you were given a new unit which was called Beauty Salon or Saloon? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR PRIOR And who actually instructed you to return to the Transkei at that time? MR MASEKO It was the Director of Operations for APLA. MR PRIOR Was that Mr Letlape Mhapalele? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR PRIOR And did he meet you in Botswana or Lesotho or how did he communicate that instruction to you? MR MASEKO We met at some stage and we talked. MR PRIOR And are you able to assist the Committee in putting a time frame on that meeting when you started Beauty Salon, the repossession units, can you remember more or less when that happened? MR MASEKO I can't remember the year or which year was it but I think it was towards the end of 1990 or beginning of 1991. MR PRIOR And do I understand you correctly that you, this was your elite unit, this was a new unit that had been formed, it was a new strategy within APLA to embark on repossession of assets, money, arms, jewellery for the cause, is that correct? MR MASEKO Yes that was a new unit. MR PRIOR The identification of the University of Umtata, that was, as I understood it, information had been received from a female comrade within the organisation, is that correct? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR PRIOR And are you able to identify that person? MR MASEKO I can't tell you where is she now but her name was Nolita, she was a student in that university. MR PRIOR Was that also a code name, Nolita? MR MASEKO It was the name that I knew at the time, I'm not sure if she had any code name. MR PRIOR What specifically was the information regarding the university at that stage from the source? Can you remember? MR MASEKO Yes I can still remember. We knew that there was money, we can get some money there as we're looking for money. Truly speaking we got the money. MR PRIOR Was your information that the university had received registration money and there would be substantial funds available there at the university at that time being the - I think it was the 18th February? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR PRIOR And did it not matter to Beauty Salon, operation Beauty Salon where for example - let me rephrase that - did it not matter through your operation from whom you took the money? MR MASEKO Sir can you please repeat your question? MR PRIOR Did it not matter to you as the commander of Beauty Salon from whom you took the money? MR MASEKO If we get money from the white institution or the same institutions who were oppressing the black, the Africans, and they ...[inaudible] and the people who were actually enjoying Apartheid, it didn't matter as long as we're getting the money from such institutions. MR PRIOR Sorry, I don't want to misunderstand you, was the University of Transkei identified as a enemy type or hostile institution in so far as APLA was concerned? In other words was it seen as an enemy, type of enemy institution which then justified such action? MR MASEKO We regarded it as the institution that was oppressing our own people. MR PRIOR Now was Mr Letlape Mphalele informed that the University of Transkei had been identified as a target and that there was an operation being planned? MR MASEKO I'm not sure if he knew because he was trusting us as commanders that we will be able to identify the targets with using only our initiative so he was not regarding as robots people who would always wait and get information from him all the time. MR PRIOR So you would only report back to him once the operation had been completed? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR PRIOR May I ask you this question, was there anyone higher than Mr Mphalele who had given you or your unit the authority or the instruction to carry out repossession type operations? I'm trying to understand the hierarchy, who was all involved in this instruction to you - people on the ground? MR MASEKO I said that we were soldiers and there's what is called chain of command in the army. There's a commander for the squad, that's responsible for the squad and he's also reporting to another commander from the highest levels of the hierarchy, even Mr Letlape was someone who was getting instruction from Savilo Palmo who was the Director of Operations and Savilo was at the highest level of the hierarchy and the instruction would move from Savilo to Mphalele and to myself. MR PRIOR Thank you. CHAIRPERSON When you come to a convenient stage Mr Prior? MR PRIOR It may be convenient now, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Then, well we'll now take the adjournment till 2 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION PATRICK THAPELA MASEKO (s.u.o.) MR PRIOR (continues) Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Maseko as the commander of the particular operation, the UNITRA operation, was it not the and correct me if I'm mistaken, it was not the policy that the commander actually led the operation in the sense that he would participate in the operation personally. I mean for example he would lead from the front? Could I get your comment on that? MR MASEKO I can't clear clearly with my headphone. I can hear now. MR PRIOR Alright, let me rephrase the question, am I correct in suggesting - let me put it directly to you - that as the commander of the operation to repossess and in this case to take half a million rands from the university registration officers, that you would have led the operation from the front being the commander in charge of the operation overall? Is that not correct? MR MASEKO Yes I did participate. MR PRIOR The question is slightly more specific, I hear what you say, that you stood outside, I'm questioning whether that was correct or not? Shouldn't the commander of an operation of that magnitude - would he not have entered the premises and been always present to make decisions and to give command should shooting be required or other decisions being made to get away safely? In other words I would have expected you to have been at the actual site of the attack in other words inside the premises and not waiting outside? MR MASEKO I explained that I was not even supposed to be there in that operation, I was involved because I wanted to give them moral support but when it comes to policy a commander is supposed to be there but it depends on the situation and a commander will not have to do something that will not be going together with what is planned in a certain operation. That is a policy. CHAIRPERSON But you told us that you were the person who went and reconnoitred the building beforehand, didn't you? Do you remember telling us that? MR MASEKO I don't even know you, who are you? I haven't talked to you before, I don't even know you. CHAIRPERSON I'm the Chairman of this Committee and you're giving evidence here and you will kindly answer the questions. Did you not tell us that you went and reconnoitred the building beforehand? MR MASEKO I can't remember speaking to you but in most cases you normally instruct people to do a recognisance. CHAIRPERSON Did you not tell us that you did a recognisance? MR MASEKO I said so. CHAIRPERSON You did a recognisance, but you now say you're not even supposed to be there. MR MASEKO Can you please repeat your question sir. CHAIRPERSON You have told us that you went to do a recognisance, you just agreed to that, but after that you told us you were not even supposed to be there at the scene of the robbery. MR MASEKO That's true sir, I said sir. CHAIRPERSON So why was it necessary for you to go and do a recognisance, surely the people who were going to carry out the robbery should have done so? MR MASEKO I was responsible for the whole unit so it was necessary for me to know what was happening. CHAIRPERSON Carry on Mr Prior. MR PRIOR Mr Maseko, your intelligence from your surveillance of - reconnoitring of the target, if I can use that expression, was that there was going to be a substantial amount of money present at the or on the premises on that occasion, the 18th February, is that right> MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR PRIOR And was your intelligence also that there would be security guards in attendance whilst that money was either being collected or counted or processed or whatever was taking place at the university at that time. That security guards were in attendance obviously to provide security for the staff members of the university involved in that process? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR PRIOR And was your intelligence also that these members or these security guards were armed? MR MASEKO Yes, I knew that they would be there but I was not aware if they would be out of uniform, they would be in private. MR PRIOR No, not that they would be out of uniform, whether they were armed, whether they had weapons with them, side arms or shotguns or whatever. Was that not your information, your intelligence? MR MASEKO I knew that if they would be there they would be armed but I was not aware that they were not wearing their uniform. MR PRIOR And did you also anticipate that should there be resistance from their side that your unit would have to use force to overcome that resistance from maybe their side? MR MASEKO In a war you can anticipate that a person can die from your side or from the opposite side. MR PRIOR Yes, the question is did you anticipate that, was that part of your thinking process, before you launched that attack or that operation? MR MASEKO We are always taking each and every mission, we know that such things can happen, a shooting can take place. MR PRIOR So when the, as you say, the assault group went into the building and you remained outside, you knew that if resistance was encountered, shooting would happen and possibly, a very real possibility that people would be killed? Is that correct? MR MASEKO In each and every war people die. ADV. GCABASHE If I may just ask here - as I understand the question, it relates to this particular incident, it would assist us as the Committee if you can explain how you saw or how you had planned to deal with that resistance at this particular time for this particular incident. We understand the general approach but as I understand the questions that relate to this incident and it would help us to understand the planning and the anticipation that you foresaw for this particular incident. If we are talking about an incident we are talking about something different, we are talking about peoples lives and operations that were properly planned. We knew that if there's resistance we are supposed to fight, we are compelled to fight so I want to clarify this term - we are not talking about incident here it's about soldiers, peoples lives, things that are known to the O.A.U. Things that ended up where there were talks about Apartheid, Apartheid that was actually taking the people's rights, taking away the people's rights. ADV. GCABASHE Mr Maseko, the shooting that took place at UNITRA, that is the particular incident we are dealing with now. You know that there are others that we will deal with at a later stage. This particular one relates to UNITRA, the auditorium and the shooting that took place there. Now the planning around that, what you as a unit anticipated - these are the questions that we need a bit of clarity on. MR MASEKO The plan was that we are going to shoot first if something is happening. ADV. GCABASHE Thank you. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. I see in the report, the subsequent intelligence report at page 22 of the bundle, that there were two R5 automatic rifles that were taken on this operation. Were these weapons, the two R5 weapons, were they in the possession of the assault group, that is the group that went into the university administration premises? MR MASEKO They were in possession of the support group. MR PRIOR Alright, let's be more specific can you identify the persons who actually went into the admin premises and took the money? Who were those persons? MR MASEKO Six people went inside the building. MR PRIOR Is that contained at paragraph 12? Mzee, Ayanda, Haspa, Jomo, Liza and Kagee? Are those the persons who entered the building? MR MASEKO Yes, those were the people who were in the assault group. MR PRIOR I see and weapons that they carried were two R5 assault rifles, one Uzi, is that correct thus far? MR MASEKO Those who were in the possession of the support group. MR PRIOR And an Uzi is a 9 mm. machine gun, is that correct? It's an automatic weapon? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR PRIOR And the assault group how were they armed can you tell us, what weapons did they carry? MR MASEKO I said support group had the rifles and the Uzi and assault group had small rifles. MR PRIOR Well let me help you, the list - what remains on the list is a 38 special revolver, a German Mauser - is that as rifle, pistol? MR MASEKO No it's not a rifle it's a pistol. MR PRIOR Okay and a Lama 6,5 that's a pistol and two parabellum, is that a 9 mm? MR MASEKO It's a mistake it's only one parabellum, it's a mistake. ADV. GCABASHE But is that a pistol, what size, is that a pistol? MR MASEKO Yes it is a pistol. ADV. PRIOR I just want to refer you to page 28 of the paginated papers - it's a statement of - beg your pardon 25, it's a statement of Mphumalanga Arthur Wadiso who was a witness at the scene. He was in the auditorium on the 18th February '93 and he says and I refer to paragraph 2, round about the middle of the paragraph: "I saw one strange young black male who was strange to me and he was coming up the stairs having two firearms on his hand, he approached me and ordered me to lie down." It was put to you by Mr Nodada for the victims whether anyone was carrying two firearms, do you remember that? MR MASEKO It's not like that. ADV. GCABASHE Sorry, could you explain that, what is not like that? MR MASEKO The fact that there was a person who has two arms with two firearms that's not true. MR PRIOR Mr Maseko as the commander, when you briefed the members of your unit particularly the assault group, did they know exactly what to do and where to go or was it pretty much they had to play it by ear or they had to improvise as they went along? What is the position, did they have specific instructions as what to do inside the building or did they had to just improvise as they went along in obtaining the money? Can you help us there? MR MASEKO Yes I can explain that. Assault group was supposed to go inside and wait for their commander to tell them what to do - they were the people who were going to take the money - they were supposed to help each other, two of them were supposed to help each to take money. The support group was supposed to help the people who were inside to take - because some of them - if one person was trying to disturb them had a firearm, they would take that firearm also. That was the duty of the support group. In the same support group two of them would stand at the door right inside to make a point that there's no one coming in or going out. They were supposed to monitor those inside, whoever who would try and prevent them from doing what they were supposed to do there, that was one assistance that they would get from the support group. MR PRIOR Thank you. It's clear that the target was a civilian target if I put it that way, had been identified as a civilian target. MR MASEKO I have a difficulty in what you're saying? MR PRIOR Well I'm having difficulty understanding as well. The people who were involved, I'm not talking about APLA, the people involved at the university were civilian people, they were people with no military connection as you identified that situation, is that correct? MR MASEKO That is why I'm saying I have difficulty because the Africans they speak about the civilians and target but when the Africans are dying that term is not used. The boers are always killing children up to 6 months babies but the word, that is not being mentioned, civilians or whatever. That's why I'm saying I'm having a difficulty in understanding that. MR PRIOR You see that we know that one person died there, he was shot by your unit and two other persons were also shot and injured by your unit. Did you identify the university as being a military type target? That's what I'm trying to drive at, do you agree that there were civilian doing their civilian jobs, that is working for the administration of the university? MR MASEKO There were police in private clothes and you never know what's happening because they had arms. MR PRIOR But your intelligence had informed you that there were security guards from the university that would be in attendance with such a large amount of money being collected there. I mean you knew that? MR MASEKO I knew that. MR PRIOR And would it also be correct to suggest to you that in order to get rid of that problem or potential problem of being thwarted, stopped in your objective, those security guards had to be taken out as quickly as possible? In other words they had to be neutralised? MR MASEKO Not the way you are saying it because it is like you want to - conducting us as to how to conduct our struggle, therefore I disagree with that. MR PRIOR No, I'm not trying to suggest how you should conduct your struggle. You said that you identified the risk in the sense that there were security people that were armed, I'm trying to find out whether you as the commander in giving instructions to your unit that they should overcome that risk or that danger to your mission. In other words, take the security guards out and there would be not further problem in obtaining the money? Did you contemplate that - if you did contemplate that did you convey that to your unit? MR MASEKO Our intention was to go there and take money. Even if there was resistance we were supposed to remove that resistance, we take them out of our way because our intention was to get the money. MR PRIOR Yes. I understand that the security guards at least were in uniform and they were easily identifiable? Can you comment on that? MR MASEKO I don't know. MR PRIOR Mr Maseko, when you heard the shooting from within the premises, what did you then do? MR MASEKO I went to close another door which was behind - it's where I met one policeman who was actually trying to close that door and he shot at me. MR PRIOR Is that when you were injured at that stage? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR PRIOR And then you made off, you ran away or made..[intervention] MR MASEKO The policeman started to run away and I ran after that, I also ran. MR PRIOR Your evidence was that the following day you met up with your unit again, is that correct? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR PRIOR And among other things the money was handed to you? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR PRIOR Did you count the money? MR MASEKO I only counted the money when I was with the administrator, I took it as is to the administrator. MR PRIOR And that stage did you know how much you had made away with or had got away with? That is before you saw the administrator? MR MASEKO I had no idea of how much money was there. MR PRIOR And the administrator you refer to is Comrade Mandla Lenin, is that correct? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR PRIOR Is he a person who is still available or is he still alive or is he in the country, is he out the country? MR MASEKO When I last saw him he was still alive but I understand that he passed away when I was in jail. MR PRIOR Now did you an he count this money that was handed to you by your unit? That is on the 19th February 1992? MR MASEKO Yes I was with him when we were counting the money, I was with him. MR PRIOR And what was the amount that you counted? MR MASEKO It was R500 000. MR PRIOR Exactly? MR MASEKO It was just R500 000. MR PRIOR I mean that's what you remembered it wasn't Four Thousand Nine Hundred and Ninety Five Thousand, it was Five Hundred Thousand Rand exactly? MR MASEKO I'm saying it was like that - just Five Hundred Thousand. MR PRIOR Page 24 of the paginated bundle where you in conclusion say and if I may be permitted just to read the quotation onto the record: "We should be honest and frank and not take anything for ourselves without asking for it because that is going to give us rebel in the forthcoming time" - I think the sense of that is that you'd be branded as rebels - "the comrades should all be searched after an operation, that is not because we undermine them but we need trustworthy comrades." You dictated that did you not if I understand your evidence about this report? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR PRIOR Was there any doubt in your mind that some of the money that you had taken from the university had been misappropriated by the members of your unit, in other words, that they hadn't accounted for all the money? MR MASEKO As a commander who had been in the field for a long time I knew that such things can happen. It's not that I was saying that happened on that particular incident but as a person who has been in the field for a long time I knew that such things are possible. MR PRIOR Yes but the impression I get from reading your concluding paragraph and your very important report to the administrator was that your members ought to be searched and money shouldn't be taken for yourselves. Are you saying that you just mentioned it generally or was there a specific problem with this matter that money had in fact been taken by the members for themselves? That seems to be the sense of the warning that you're giving to the administrator, there's this - do you agree with that or not? MR MASEKO If you are saying I was saying it generally, I was saying that because I know that such things are possible, I didn't want it to happen, it's not that I was saying that it happened in that particular incident. MR PRIOR Alright, maybe I should ask you directly, why did you in fact mention this to the administrator. If there was no question of the money being taken by other members of the unit and had been fully accounted for why was there a necessity to even mention this conclusion? MR MASEKO I said that as a commander with experience I know that in other missions such things used to happen so I was just saying that such things must not happen it's not that it actually happened. CHAIRPERSON Mr Prior, I don't know if investigation has been done, but is there in fact any suggestion that more than R500 000 was taken? Can the university say from it's records and as accountants were apparently present what the sum was? MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, the difficulty is that from that side the investigation wasn't very thorough but my idea was that the amount, I remember from a document that I did see, was in order of about four hundred and ninety six or eight thousand it within a few thousand rand of half a million, so no I don't have any information at this stage that I can put positively to this witness. Just finally on that aspect when the administrator then received this money, does he for example give you a receipt for the money, does he sign a document or does he simply accept the money and move off? MR MASEKO I used to give him the money and he was actually trusting me and I knew that - I trusted him also because he was working for the revolution. MR PRIOR Tell me did your unit, the Beauty Salon operation unit that you were heading, did you receive any monies out of this particular haul for your running expenses? MR MASEKO We had a certain manner of asking for money, we were not just getting money as easy as that. MR PRIOR Are you saying you never received any money out of this amount, this half a million for your own needs to either buy food or for transport, for clothing for accommodation, for whatever? MR MASEKO I'm not sure if the money was directly coming from that five hundred thousand. All I know is that we had a certain way of getting the money, I'm sure if that was taken from that five hundred thousand. MR PRIOR Sorry, I trying to understand you, when you say there was a certain way of getting money did you then at that stage ask the administrator that you required so much to keep your unit going? MR MASEKO Yes many times I did. MR PRIOR Yes but try and just concentrate on...[intervention] MR LAX Sorry Mr Prior, if I could just come in there. Mr Maseko you keep saying there was a certain way we got money, what was that way, what was the correct procedure to get money from the administrator, just to help us with that please? MR MASEKO You wouldn't tell the administrator that you needed certain money. If there was a reason or a mission that needs money, you would go to the administrator and ask him and you tell him how much money do you want and the reason for that and he would understand and he would give the money to you. ADV. SANDI After, sorry Mr Prior, just a question that goes very closely with this. Mr Maseko, after this incident of robbery did you go back to the administrator to ask for money which you would have to use in any operation? MR MASEKO Let us correct this term robbery, we're not robbing but we're repossessing. Yes in our operation I did go to the administrator more than once. ADV. SANDI How much did you ask for that is, the first time you went to the administrator to say that you had to get some money to use in some operation. How much did you ask for? MR MASEKO I can't remember clearly but I know that I would ask for money that would provide unit members with transport and money for petrol. I can't say right now about the amount, I can't remember. ADV. SANDI Would you be able to estimate and say perhaps it was in the regions of etc.? MR MASEKO You are putting me in a difficult situation, I can say if we are going to Ncoba maybe we would get money for petrol and buy food on the way to that particular place but if I can estimate maybe it can be R70 or R80. ADV. SANDI Let us leave that one and now - but ask you a question which also concerns how money is obtained from the administrator. Was there a specific way of giving a report or reports to the administrator as to how such monies have been used? MR MASEKO I can't remember doing that type of report. ADV. SANDI You had no specific procedure? Listen to the question carefully, if you go to the administrator and ask for some money which you say you need to use for a certain operation, was there a specifically laid down procedure of giving a report back to the administrator on how he'll use that money? MR MASEKO I never did that. ADV. SANDI I'm sorry about that Mr Prior. MR PRIOR Mr Maseko, just two or maybe three last points - in my dealings with other APLA applications and particularly where there was a repossession or a commandeering of property before an attack or an operation and let me just give you a general example. If a target was to be attacked and the unit required transport to that area, they would commandeer, they would seize a vehicle from a member of the public if he was a member of the black population. The unit would then say "we are APLA, we require your vehicle for a - whatever purpose and you can fetch your vehicle from such and such place, we will leave it at a certain place" or something like that in other words the victims in that robbery situation, if I may call it robbery for the purpose of my question, were informed of what the repossession or dispossession entailed and who was involved. With that in mind, my question is - when you went to the University of Umtata, do you know or was it your instruction for your unit, attack and support unit, to indicate to the persons inside the building that you were APLA and you were about to repossess funds for the movement or something in that line? I know it's a long question, do you follow what I'm asking you and are you able to answer that? MR MASEKO Even now I can't understand that question. MR LAX Maybe I can help you. What Mr Prior is saying is that in other matters involving APLA people, his experience of their way of operating was that they would identify themselves as APLA particularly to African people and say we are APLA, we need this for this issue, go and fetch your car here or to avoid casualties, the question he's asking you is in this instance, at UNITRA that day, did you identify yourselves as APLA so that people would be calm or did you just go in there and not identify yourselves at all? Have I asked the question correctly? MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman, yes. MR MASEKO I'm not sure if they were told but I still think that there was no need for them to tell the people, to identify - there was no need for them to identify themselves. ADV. GCABASHE It wasn't anything you had discussed before you went to UNITRA? MR MASEKO No we never discussed that. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, I don't propose to refer in any length to the submissions that I handed to the Committee at the lunch adjournment and I refer specifically to the submissions made by the PAC at the security hearings before the H.R.V. Committee in August and of October last year. Suffice to point out that repossession units or Beauty Salon was referred to at pages 113 to about 118 of those submissions. I simply mention that for the information of the Committee should any questions from the Committee arise from that and suffice maybe just to mention that the high command of APLA certainly referred to the repossession units as being part of the strategy but I don't propose to cross-examine or ask questions on this aspect. Mr Chairman, may I be permitted just to finally put to Mr Maseko one other aspect. At page 68 of the bundle and I'm referring to the statement that you made at Westonaria. I refer to paragraph 7, the second portion of that paragraph towards the bottom of the page and I read or I quote from the last sentence: "I was not doing this alone" referring to the selling of vegetables and ice cream in the streets, "there were people like Sangoma, Tabang, Sandile and Mantani who were helping me. Sangoma was the driver." Then you said "I did this job until the announcement of suspension of armed struggle by the President of the PAC" and I continue on page 70 paragraph 10 continues and you said: "We had two items on the agenda, one was the coming elections, two, way forward on question of elections. We all agreed that we must help mobilise people to vote for the PAC on the question of way forward. We all agreed that the question of armed struggle is out because the political power is in the hands of the African people whether it is ANC or not PAC, the fact is the political power is in the hands of the African people so there's no need for armed struggle." and you go on but I end the quotation there. Have you followed what I have mentioned to you? MR MASEKO I don't follow this. MR PRIOR You see I'm referring to a statement that you agreed to earlier on in your evidence that you had made in Westonaria and unfortunately the statement - the copy that is in the bundle does not have a date but there's a reference number a Westonaria CR number which is 267/11/1990 which means that this statement was made during November 1990 possibly. MR LAX Sorry Mr Prior that's very misleading all it means that the incident occurred in November 1990 and that particular incident was reported to the police then. MR PRIOR I realise my mistake I was trying to put the statement into a time frame. I do apologise Mr Maseko let me just come back to what I was driving at in the beginning. At two places in your statement you refer to being aware of the suspension of the armed struggle, once at a time when you had been selling vegetables, fruit and ice cream on the streets and you became aware of the suspension of the armed struggle by Sebelo Palma, that announcement. Can you put that into a time sequence for us, when did that occur, when did you become aware that Sebelo Palma had called for the suspension of armed struggle by the PAC? MR MASEKO Let me correct you. First of all comrade Magweto is the one who actually mentioned something about the armed struggle not Sebelo Palma. I knew and though I can't remember the year but I remember that comrade Magweto suspended the armed struggle not Sebelo Palma. MR PRIOR I beg your pardon. Alright but in any event that was an authoritative statement on behalf of the PAC is that correct? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR PRIOR And then are you able to say when that was, the year possibly? CHAIRPERSON It must have been after April 1995 wasn't it because he refers in that statement to a meeting on the 29th April 1995 so the statement must have been made after then? MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman, I take your point but his awareness of the cessation of the armed struggle, that's what I'm after, are you able to put a time frame on that because in paragraph 10 he goes on to say "they were preparing for the election" and that was in April 1994. MR MASEKO You are mixing up things now - what we are talking about if something ends - the meeting took place long after the statement was said about the suspension of armed struggle, they are two different things so he's actually mixing up the two issues. MR PRIOR I'm having difficulty and I'm grateful for pointing that out to me. Are you saying or is it the position that on two different occasions leaders of the PAC had called for the - or had announced the suspension of the armed struggle? That is now before the elections of 1994. MR MASEKO Yes it is so. MR PRIOR And are you able to assist us and maybe put a time frame in other words to tell us when those announcements were made whether it was in 1993, 1992 or earlier? MR MASEKO I can't remember what year was it but I think it was just before the elections, just before the elections. MR PRIOR And not before the operation at University of Transkei? MR MASEKO No, I don't think it is like that. MR PRIOR So are you saying that that happened because we know the UNITRA operation, that is the one we are investigating today, this was the 18th February 1992, are you saying the call or the statement to suspend the armed struggle came after that date but before the election date which was April '94? MR MASEKO That is so. MR PRIOR And finally and this is a general question - the call to suspend the armed struggle was that embraced by all of APLA or was there a difference of opinion within APLA whether to continue with the armed struggle? MR MASEKO It's not all of us who were pleased by the statement. MR PRIOR From that reply do I understand that people were dissatisfied with that call? MR MASEKO Yes I trying to say it's not everybody who was satisfied. MR PRIOR And was the struggle carried on, did they carry on or did the faction within APLA carry on with the struggle despite the call for suspension thereof by certain leaders? Do I understand you correctly, that's what you're trying to convey? MR MASEKO I disagree with that because I was one of those people who were not satisfied because we were actually making arrangement mobilising people for an election so I was among those people who were dissatisfied by the decision. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Does that conclude your ..[inaudible]? MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, thank you that concludes my questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NTONGA MR NTONGA Mr Maseko, you were asked about whether after the announcement by the President to stop further armed attacks whether a faction was dissatisfied continued with the attacks - do you as a commander know of any such attacks? Were you involved in any attacks despite the fact that you are not in agreement with the decision? MR MASEKO I don't know anything. MR NTONGA And further on the question asked about whether you got money from these operations or ask the administrator to give you money from the operations, you are saying that you did ask for money but you didn't know from which source the money came from but you followed a certain procedure to obtain money for the operations? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR NTONGA And you are certain that this incident occurred before this announcement of suspending armed struggle and mobilising the masses for a vote? MR MASEKO This operation took place before the elections. MR NTONGA Is it correct also that after the announcement of the President of the PAC various meetings were held before the call was actually accepted by the whole membership of PAC? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR NTONGA You were asked also extensively about how you were armed, that is your unit was armed in this operation at UNITRA and your questions were based on the statement or report made to the administrator. Are you saying to this Commission that the mistakes that are there were made then and it's only for today that realise that about the people who were there, the names as well as the guns, machine guns, arms carried that day? MR MASEKO I want to say so. MR NTONGA And you say you yourself were armed with a knife which also appears on the list, Okapi knife? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR NTONGA Your unit what happened to them, members of the unit are they still alive? Do you know what happened to them? MR MASEKO I don't know whether they're still alive or not and I haven't seen them for a long because I have spent too much time in prison already. MR NTONGA Is there a way you can make contact with them if you want to? MR MASEKO It can be very difficult because some of them went back their respective home and I won't even know how to start about tracing them. MR NTONGA About this question of code names - you were asked by the Commission if possible to put in full names for the members of the unit. Just tell the Commission how difficult it is to know the full names in the APLA structure. MR MASEKO Thank you very much sir. First of all in APLA we had code names for security reasons because we knew our names and if someone is arrested it would be dangerous therefore we were using the code names so that if one is arrested it would be difficult to know who that person is. We were using the code names for security reasons. MR NTONGA And lastly, about this operation at UNITRA are you saying to this Commission that although you don't remember advising your senior before the operation but after the operation did you advise him and did he approve of it? MR MASEKO Can you please repeat your question sir? MR NTONGA Although you don't remember advising him before the operation, but after the operation did you report to him and he sanctioned the operation? MR MASEKO After each and every operation we normally did a report back. MR NTONGA To get the sanction of the organisation through your immediate superior? MR MASEKO That's correct. MR NTONGA Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTONGA CHAIRPERSON Any questions? ADV. GCABASHE Yes I have a few. I might as well start on this particular point Mr Maseko. The sanctioning of this operation - now if you can help me understand this - as the overall commander you say you could decide on the target for a particular operation. Is this right? MR MASEKO That's correct. ADV. GCABASHE Now in terms of the hierarchy of APLA was there any structure to the target that you would pick on, I mean did somebody say to you these are the areas we are targeting as an organisation and you would then confine yourself to those particular areas? MR MASEKO It's not like that. Each and every unit would go and try identify the targets by itself. ADV. GCABASHE And do I understand correctly then that the reason you chose UNITRA was because you knew you would be able to get a large sum of money there, that's the only reason? MR MASEKO You are telling the truth. ADV. GCABASHE Now Advocate Paddy Prior talked about civilian soft targets and you talked about military targets. You also talked about institutions that were related to the government earlier on in your testimony. Why UNITRA why not one of the banks? MR MASEKO We have identified a lot of targets and there was specific reason but even UNITRA was falling under the same category that we're identifying - even UNITRA was the same target as the other institutions so it was just one of them. ADV. GCABASHE Again, staying with the actual shooting itself, you say when you got injured you went to the residences, that's correct? MR MASEKO That's correct. ADV. GCABASHE Now, do you remember the student who assisted you, who bandaged you at the residences, was it Nolita who you have mentioned somewhere in your testimony? MR MASEKO It was not Nolita it was just a student. ADV. GCABASHE Now what exactly did you say to this student to get this assistance from him or her? MR MASEKO First of all I told lies I said I got injured while I just a passer by then he..she...[intervention] ADV. GCABASHE Then he or she? Sorry I didn't get that was it a female student or a male student? MR MASEKO It was a girl. ADV. GCABASHE Alright, now a question was asked of you, did you ask them, that is your unit members, why they killed and injured people instead of just taking the money? I didn't get your answer to that. This is when they were reporting back to you later, did you ask them that question? MR MASEKO I didn't ask that question but they explained it to me and I was satisfied after hearing their reasons because I gave them the instructions that no one should be injured from our side. ADV. GCABASHE And if you don't mind explaining that reason again? What exactly did they say, why did they shoot? MR MASEKO When they came in as they were armed it became clear that the police shot at them and they had to shoot back and at the end of the day they managed to get the money. ADV. GCABASHE Now just generally about yourself. You've mentioned in you affidavit that you were involved in selling small things, hawking business essentially. When exactly was this - just give me a rough time period? Before or after this incident? MR MASEKO It was long after the suspension of the armed struggle. ADV. GCABASHE And then one final one but I think it's just an error on your application - this particular incident, this shooting took place in 1993, not 1992 as reflected on page 7 of the bundle, is that correct? Just to correct that small detail? MR MASEKO I've forgotten but I think you people have got the right information because I was just estimating. ADV. GCABASHE Thank you, no further questions. ADV. SANDI Mr Maseko, you made mention of two, three commanders actually, who were in charge of the different groups as they were about to launch the attack at the university, do you recall that? MR MASEKO Yes I can remember. ADV. SANDI These three commanders, were they also part of the decision to attack the university? MR MASEKO The three of these commanders were the members of this unit therefore they were there when the decision was taken. ADV. SANDI Now, who exactly was responsible for the decision that an attack should be launched at the university? It was yourself? MR MASEKO As the overall commander of the unit I was the one who would identify the target and I would even approve on targets. ADV. SANDI Are you saying that you were the first person to come up with the suggestion that an attack should be launched at the university, is that correct? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. ADV. SANDI Well I would further suppose that some kind of a discussion took place amongst yourselves or between yourself and any other person. Can you tell us about - did any discussion take place between yourself about this decision with your superior or anyone of those who were going to take part in the attack? MR MASEKO I never discussed the matter with my superiors instead I discussed with them after the operation and I would like to clarify this to you because it looks like you don't understand this. Do you agree that I explained this to you? ADV. SANDI I'm trying to make sure that I follow your testimony Mr Maseko. Let me put my question differently, did anyone come up with a counter-suggestion to the idea that the university should be attacked? MR MASEKO No, no one opposed that. ADV. SANDI Now let us talk about the administrator, you said he has since deceased? MR MASEKO That information I got from prison, when I was in prison, I beg your pardon. ADV. SANDI You do not have any knowledge as to what sort of circumstances led to his death? MR MASEKO I heard that he was sick and it's not long ago - that happened recently. ADV. SANDI Maybe one last question about the administrator. Was there any way in which the administrator could satisfy himself that some monies he had given to members of APLA were used for the purposes for which they had been requested? MR MASEKO It's difficult for me to answer that question because I was not actually working with the administrator. ADV. SANDI Maybe we shouldn't take that one any further. Thank you Mr Maselo. MR LAX Thanks Chairperson. Just while we're on the question of the monies and how you got them from the administrator - do I understand your evidence correctly that when you want to engage in an operation, you went to the administrator and you said look this is what we need to do, these are the expenses we're likely to incur and can we have this much money. Do I understand it correctly? MR MASEKO That's what I said. MR LAX Did you only ask for money from the administrator when you were doing operations? MR MASEKO It was known and even today that APLA didn't have money. We were asking for money for different reasons or maybe money for food because APLA didn't have money. MR LAX Spell out those reasons for us please? What might there be in your own experience? MR MASEKO Transport, food and rent because sometimes we had to rent the places that we're staying in. There were different purposes for asking for money therefore I can't mention all of them. MR LAX Did you ever, in your own experience as an APLA person, did you ever retain monies for those purposes without giving them to the administrator? MR MASEKO That looks like an insult. I was not a mercenary - that looks like an insult to me, I am not pleased with that question - I was not a mercenary, we were not getting any salary, that question looks like an insult to me. MR LAX Mr Maseko, you easily take offence about such things, I'm not for one moment suggesting you were being mercenary, there may have been any number of good reasons why you couldn't have given the money to the administrator immediately, there may have been other important exigencies, who knows but please if you feel offended I'm not trying to offend you. In the normal initiative that you would have had as a commander, there may have been very good reasons why you needed to retained some monies. You maybe reported about those monies so please don't pretend to be offended here, I'm not trying to offend you, I'm really trying to understand how you worked. MR MASEKO I've already explained that even if the amount of money was not enough but we would take it to the administrator. You just read the statement that is actually implying that I wanted people to be trustworthy and then you again you are asking me about such operation whereby I would take the money instead or I would take the money for ourselves not taking it to the administrator, you've just heard that on the statement that I wanted the comrades to be trustworthy. MR LAX Well that's precisely what I'm leading to so I'm going to ask you this question again and if you choose to be offended, you may be offended, did you ever retain monies for whatever purpose without giving them to administrator? A simple yes or no would be sufficient. MR MASEKO That never happened. MR LAX Thank you. Did any of your sub-ordinates, the people who were under your command, ever retain money that was never given to you or to the administrator? MR MASEKO The people who were in my unit, they would give everything to me they would give me all the money after each and every operation. MR LAX Well then why was it necessary to add that last paragraph if it was something that never happened? MR MASEKO I told you from the beginning that the experience that I had, I know very well that such things used to happen before but not in this particular incident but I had experience of that type of thing. MR LAX What happened or was there ever a situation where having used your initiative to identify a target and engaged in an operation, on reporting such operation you were regarded with disapproval? How would that be dealt with? MR MASEKO I can't remember anything of that nature. MR LAX Did it never happen as far as you are aware? MR MASEKO I can't remember anything of that nature. MR LAX Okay, so although you can't remember it ever having happened to you, what was the policy of APLA in relation to cadres who might carry operations that were not within the policy? How would APLA deal with that as a commander you must have known what that mechanism would be? MR MASEKO I think the best people to answer to that is the APLA leadership. MR LAX Now I just wanted to clarify something about your job as a hawker when you were doing that. You said in reply to some questions from Ms Gcabashe that you did that after the cessation, long after the cessation of hostilities - did I hear you correctly? MR MASEKO Yes that's correct. MR LAX You see if you look on page 68 of the papers, what is said in this statement in the last sentence you talk about this new job you were given because of your age and how you did it and who helped you and so on and then in the last line you said "I did this job until the announcement of suspension of armed struggle." So it couldn't have been long after that, you did it until that happened. Can you explain this, it's a bit confusing for us? ADV. GCABASHE Mr - if I might just try and remember my question I thought it was in relation also to this particular incident, it was a composite question. I actually said in relation to this incident was it before or after the incident, so as not to confuse the applicant in his answer. I tied them all together. MR LAX Sorry, what seems clear from your evidence - maybe we can clarify this first - what seems clear from your evidence was that after you finished with your unit Beauty Saloon, you then had a new task assigned to you and that task was hawking, correct or not correct? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. MR LAX Then you see the issue is when did you do that job and you said to us you did it long after the cessation of the armed struggle and you confirmed that now in your evidence. Do we understand one another? MR MASEKO Yes, I hear you. MR LAX However in this statement you say that you did the hawking job up until the time the armed struggle was suspended not after that. That's what I'm wanting you to explain please. In other words you say you stopped doing this job as a hawker when the armed struggle was suspended whereas your previous evidence was that you did this job long after that point in time. Do you understand me? We just need to clarify this little bit of confusion here. MR MASEKO I think it's a mistake but it's true that long after the suspension of the armed struggle I started selling the vegetables. It was long after the suspension of armed struggle. I think it's just a confusion there. CHAIRPERSON But you say there also that during the time you were selling vegetables you will be transporting arms from a point to another - taking arms from the Transkei to Lesotho. Was that long after the end of the armed that you were taking arms around? MR MASEKO I did explain that when they announced about the suspension of the armed struggle there were people who were dissatisfied and I was one of them but now we had weapons, we had arms and we were not prepared to surrender the arms, that's why we had to transport them from point A to point B though we were dissatisfied about the suspension of the armed struggle. MR LAX Just one last aspect. There's a little bit of confusion with the date of your meeting in Maseru. You remember going to a meeting in Maseru where you met with Letlape, number two was yourself that's Njebe, Ntate and Tbogo, there were four of you present. Do you remember that meeting? MR MASEKO That happened when we were in Lesotho. MR LAX Now you say there were two items only on the agenda? You said the coming elections and number two the way forward on the question on the elections. Is that correct? MR MASEKO That's correct. MR LAX Which elections were these? MR MASEKO I was referring to the elections, the coming elections. MR LAX The ones that are coming in 1999? MR MASEKO I'm referring to the 1999 elections. MR LAX Well that explains then the date and then we can begin to understand you. So in effect you yourself and your comrades ceased the armed struggle at that meeting? That's when you finally decided that the armed struggle was a waste of time and you were rather going to go for the elections? Is that correct? MR MASEKO I don't agree with you completely. We were no longer going on with the operations but we decided to help the PAC, it's not that we were still continuing the operations at the time. MR LAX There's a distinction here, you said in your previous evidence that you didn't carry out any more operations, that we accept so far. You did however say that you were making preparations and planning to maybe disrupt the elections - that you did say or did I not hear you properly because you still hadn't finally decided that the armed struggle should cease - you were dissatisfied? MR MASEKO I didn't say anything about disturbing the elections but I said we were prepared to help the PAC during the elections so that the elections can go on without any disturbance. MR LAX Thank you. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Just one point I'd like to clarify - when you went to this attack on the university to get the money - who provided the weapons for your unit? MR MASEKO I did explain before that APLA was running short of arms. Each and every unit would be given the arms but it would happen occasionally that a certain unit does not have enough arms and we would go and borrow the arms from another unit. CHAIRPERSON Well, where did you get the arms from on this occasion? MR MASEKO We got these arms from the previous operations that had taken place but with this, I beg your pardon, we borrowed the arms from another unit from other units. CHAIRPERSON Why didn't you borrow enough? MR MASEKO There were enough but I was just an additional person that's why there was that kind of a shortage. I became an additional member. CHAIRPERSON Did you know how much money or did you know there was going to be a great deal of money at the university - money that had been paid in by students, mainly African students, for their admission to the university? MR MASEKO The money who was from the African students but it was already in the hands of the university where these Boers were running the government at the time were in charge. CHAIRPERSON And you knew there was a lot of money there? MR MASEKO Yes we knew. CHAIRPERSON From looking at the list of cases in which you have applied for amnesty this was far and away the largest amount of money involved, is that correct? MR MASEKO I haven't read that statement yet therefore I'm not sure whether it's true or false. CHAIRPERSON Well you filled it in and you swore to it as being correct - your application for amnesty - do you remember, you listed 28 different incidents? MR MASEKO I'm the one who made that statement and even the amount of money there, I'm the one who filled it in but the thing is that I didn't get a chance of calculating. CHAIRPERSON Well I will tell you that it is far and away the largest sum of money that you say was stolen, I think your advocate - legal advisor - will confirm that. Do you agree? MR MASEKO I have not comment concerning that. CHAIRPERSON But you chose not to go although you were the commander you told us you chose not to get yourself too involved in this theft of half a million rand. Is that correct? MR MASEKO I have already explained that I was not supposed to be in that operation but I decided to be involved because I wanted to give them moral support. CHAIRPERSON You see I have problems with you saying I was not supposed to be in that operation - when you were the person who planned the operation, you've agreed to that, it was your idea, you planned it, you reconnoitred the scene, why do you say you were not supposed to be in it? MR MASEKO I'll try and explain this way - my job was not mainly to repossess but I would hire units to repossess. If the unit is able to do the mission then I would have to go and create another unit to do the job. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Is there anything anyone wishes to raise before we go on? MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman, there's nothing from my side. CHAIRPERSON Have you any other witness to call? So you propose to adjourn the application at this stage, to adjourn the applicant's evidence at this stage? MR NTONGA I agree Mr Chairman so that I can be given a chance to ...[inaudible] the other attacks so if we have one complete application with all the..[intervention] CHAIRPERSON And you don't want to call any other witnesses - today being this event? Do either of you two gentlemen wish to call any witnesses dealing with this event? MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, maybe I - apart from the three victims that are present, there are no other witnesses, I leave that in the hands of Mr Nodada for his client. MR NODADA Mr Chairman, I'll being calling two of my clients, that is the victims. CHAIRPERSON Well do you want to start now when they'll go on for a very short time or should we try to start promptly tomorrow morning at say 9 o'clock when they won't have an interrupted - sorry before I fix a time - is that a convenient time to bring the applicant here - 9 o'clock. Does that suit you? We'll adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION 31ST MARCH 1998 - DAY 2 MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, there's one aspect regarding the applicant's affidavit that was referred to in his evidence, I noticed that it was unsigned. I've discussed the matter with Mr Ntonga and the suggestion is that the applicant simply be sworn in or confirm the statement under oath, as the Chair pleases. CHAIRPERSON Just remind the applicant that he is still under his previous oath. PATRICK THOPELA MASEKO (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Do you remember reading an affidavit prepared by your attorney? MR MASEKO Yes sir. CHAIRPERSON Do you confirm the correctness of all the facts that are set out in that affidavit? MR MASEKO Yes sir. CHAIRPERSON Can you remember or your attorney can perhaps tell us, so we can fill that in too, what the date should be? When was it that you confirmed the correctness to your attorney? MR MASEKO There's no problem to consult him sir. CHAIRPERSON Was it a few days ago? What should the date have been, when we supposed to have sworn it? MR NTONGA On Sunday. CHAIRPERSON On Sunday the 29th. So can we say that it was prepared on the 29th of March and you confirm the correctness, is that so? MR MASEKO That's correct sir. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman, may the applicant then leave the podium due to the space arrangement and then take his place up in the front of the seating facility? CHAIRPERSON Well, does that meet the - yes. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Yesterday we had some problem with the interpreters, what language is the present going to use? MR NODADA Xhosa. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA (sworn states) MR NODADA Mr Pama you are presently a member of the South African Police Services holding the rank of a Sergeant and stationed at Umtata? MR PAMA Yes it is so. MR NODADA During 1993 and in particular on the 18th February 1993 were you already a policeman? MR PAMA Yes it is so. MR NODADA Were you sent to the University of Transkei to assume duties on the afternoon of that day? MR PAMA Yes it is so. MR NODADA What time did you report for duties there? MR PAMA I think it was about - after five we were supposed to ..[inaudible] about half past four but we could not get there at four, I think we got there at about before six. MR NODADA And how many were you as police officers? MR PAMA We were three policemen, Sergeant Mkizwayo, Sergeant Klokozile and myself. MR NODADA What duties were you going to perform at the University? MR PAMA The work we were supposed to do was to go and get the money because they were calculating the monies from the registration of students. MR NODADA And when you arrived at the University where did you actually go? MR PAMA We went to the auditorium where they were registering students. MR NODADA Did you find any people inside the auditorium? MR PAMA We found people inside but people who were shown off to whom we went to where the security guards of the university who were two. MR NODADA Did you speak to them when you arrived? Did you introduce yourselves to the security officers when you got to the auditorium? MR PAMA We introduced ourselves, when we got there we asked them everything in terms of the registration because that was the first time we went there. MR NODADA And the other people that you found there, what did they appear to be, did they appear to be students or university employees? MR PAMA Others we thought may be students, others perhaps workers of the university because they were inside the venue where we were asking where the money is actually kept where everything was happening. MR NODADA Again in question that when you arrived there, there were no police officers from whom you took over duties, is that so? MR PAMA It's not so, there were policemen there who we went to relieve. MR NODADA I see, so you took over from those policemen? Where did you meet them? MR PAMA The police we met at about the door, others were inside, two inside, others - because we get late after the time we're supposed to relieve them, we got them like inside and outside. MR NODADA Did they show you where the money was, that is the police officers who had been on guard duty there from whom you took over? MR PAMA They did not show us where the money was, we asked at the security of the university because we knew that were not working at the time. CHAIRPERSON I take it that these policemen whose duty was now over were anxious to get back to there station and get off duty? MR PAMA May you please repeat the question? CHAIRPERSON I take it that the policemen whom you relieved were getting anxious because you were some hours late and they wanted to leave and get back to their station? MR PAMA I would not think that they were in a rush. MR NODADA And the security officers who were there did they show you where the money was? MR PAMA The police did not show us where the money was, it's one policeman who told us we must ask the security guards where the money was because they were all working that day. MR NODADA And the security guards did they show you or tell you where the money was? MR PAMA They told us that the money is there as we asked them and we went up the stairs and we greeted them because it was the first time we saw them and asked as to how far the registration was and where the money was. MR NODADA Where did exactly did you meet these security guards, was it inside the auditorium or outside? MR PAMA We met them inside upstairs, up the stairs. MR NODADA Up the stairs? MR PAMA Yes. MR NODADA And where exactly did they say the money was? MR PAMA They pointed to a small room that was at that same hall, they showed that that's where all the activity was happening. MR NODADA Now how many doors did you notice that were leading to this auditorium? MR PAMA There were three doors we saw. The door we entered through at the bottom and the others on top that were coming from the back. MR NODADA Now this small room which was pointed to you by the security guards, was it at the top of the auditorium or at the bottom? MR PAMA Can you please repeat the question? MR NODADA The small room where the security guards said money was kept or was being calculated, did they say it was - did they point it out at the bottom of the auditorium or at the top? MR PAMA It was at the top. MR NODADA At the top? MR PAMA Yes. MR NODADA Alright, can you now tell this Commission what happened from the moment you entered the auditorium after you had spoken to the security guards? MR PAMA When we're talking with the security guards people entered, we calculated about three or four, they went up slowly, I saw one having a newspaper in his hand, because we thought it may be a student or students coming to register, they were slow, walking slowly. We looked at these people because we were new in the venue and these people moved up. When they were about to ascend the whole lot of stairs there was something in front of us - we were at the end of the stairs. They went up, I was at the end near to a room with someone called Mr Data Mankumba. MR NODADA You say you were at the bottom and who was next to you? MR PAMA Next to me was ...[inaudible] Mankumba who was a security guard there, next to him Sergeant Mkizwayo and then Sergeant Klokozile next to him and then over there another security guard. That's where we were still looking at these four people looking up, thinking that they were students because they looked like students. We did not know, we could not determine who may not be a student, that this one may be a student or whatever. They got near...[intervention] MR NODADA Just before you get to that, through which of the three doors did these persons enter the auditorium? MR PAMA They entered through the same door we entered one at the bottom and they ascended the stairs as we had done. MR NODADA Yes, continue. MR PAMA As we were still looking on when they were hiding over the pillar someone appeared next to us and shot the father next to me and I was hiding trying to run away to throw my gun because we're being shot at - I was shot at my left in the chest. That's how I fell, the gun I was holding fell down too, I lost consciousness after that. After some time I recovered my consciousness, I noticed that the gun I was holding was no more around. When I looked around that the person was coming to shoot me, he was descending the stairs carrying a gun bag. That was the end, I shouted to the fathers I thought were registering saying that they must help us because I was injured and Sergeant Mkizwayo was also injured. I asked them to rush us to hospital for help. When I was being picked up I again lost my consciousness, it took days before I could resume by consciousness. MR NODADA Right, did you notice any firearms in the possession of these four persons who entered the auditorium when they went up the stairs? MR PAMA I never saw any guns, I only noted that one was holding a newspaper, or something looking like a newspaper, nobody would notice that they were carrying anything. MR NODADA And how were you holding your firearm, where was your firearm at the time? MR PAMA My gun was at my waist under the jersey I was wearing as I was not wearing the uniform that day. MR NODADA Was it showing? MR PAMA It was not evident because I did not want anybody to notice. MR NODADA How were you dressed on this day? MR PAMA I was wearing privately without a jacket though. MR NODADA And the other two police officers, how were they dressed? MR PAMA All of us were wearing private clothes, no one amongst us could be noted that he was a policeman. CHAIRPERSON Why was that? MR PAMA The reason because there was a unit called Emergency Unit that could be used if we were called anywhere and we may be required to go and arrest let's say Tsotsis who we did not want to notice us when we were around and when they break the law we then arrest them and apprehend them. MR NODADA In other words, you were instructed by your commanders to dress privately? MR PAMA That is so. MR NODADA And the two other policemen were they clearly - I mean were they possessing their firearms in a manner which could be clearly seen by anyone? MR PAMA Nobody could notice that because we wore things that would cover the guns where the guns would not be noticed. MR NODADA And the two university officers, how were they dressed? MR PAMA They were wearing their security uniforms and their jackets of the university security uniform that are greenish. MR NODADA Did you notice any firearms in their possession? MR PAMA No did not even notice any guns because they were wearing jackets over. MR NODADA Were you able to recognise any of the four persons who entered? MR PAMA I could not notice because they hid behind the pillar and we thought that they were students because of that we could not take special notice because we thought they were students. MR NODADA How many gunshots did you hear before you lost consciousness? MR PAMA The first was the one that shot the gentleman next to me father Mankumba, the second one, the one that hit me and I fell. MR NODADA Did you see the person who fired at Mr Mankumba? MR PAMA The person who shot gentleman, Mr Mankumba, is the same one who shot me. MR NODADA Will you be able to identify that person if you had to walk into this hall or if he's amongst us in this hall? MR PAMA I cannot try identifying. MR NODADA Before these shots were fired, did you hear any warnings by anyone about the presence of some people who were there for a specific purpose? MR PAMA There was no sign of these people that they may be intending to do something like that - the only thing they shot at us. MR NODADA Before the shots were fired at you, were there any other shots that had been fired at any other person at that time or at any other earlier time? MR PAMA Nobody was shot, the only first time that was shot, it is when father Mankumba was shot and then me shot, that was the only time any shots were fired. MR NODADA Did you hear anybody giving any instruction that you should lie down? MR PAMA Nobody said we must lie down. If anybody has drawn a gun already you can't do anything. MR NODADA Now apart from the three of you, that is the three of you as police officers and the two security officers of the university can you give us an estimation of the number of people who were there when you arrived? MR PAMA There were other gentlemen and a lady who was sitting on the stairs and there were others inside at the room where they registering students and where I think there was money. MR NODADA Roughly how many were those people? MR PAMA I would estimate at about ten. MR NODADA About ten. Did you know any of them? MR PAMA I knew none of them. MR NODADA Had you been to that auditorium before or was that your first time to set your foot inside that building? MR PAMA That was my first day to enter that auditorium that's the day this happened. MR NODADA That is his evidence Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NODADA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NTONGA MR NTONGA Mr Pama are you in a position to face the Commission or do you want some time to get some composure, I won't like to put questions at your state? Do want some time? MR PRIOR If you need some time Mr Pama, we're quite happy to give you a few minutes to compose yourself and take it easy, it's not a problem with us. Would you like that? CHAIRPERSON We'll adjourn for a few minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA (s.u.o.) MR NTONGA (continues) Mr Pama, I'm sorry that I have to take you back to that day when you experienced that experience that had led you to tears but unfortunately I have to do so. Let's start about the number of the people and at the auditorium room - were they three or four? MR PAMA There were three or four. MR NTONGA Are you saying that you could not notice whether they were armed or not armed? MR PAMA We tried to notice I'm sure we could not notice anything except the paper that I said one of them was carrying. CHAIRPERSON Does that mean that you looked at them and you didn't see any weapons you just saw one of them carrying a newspaper? MR PAMA Yes I looked at them. MR NTONGA And if one of them was carrying arms openly and ...[inaudible] you could have seen that? MR PAMA If they were carrying arms with their hands I would have noticed but if they hid them behind their clothes certainly I would not have seen them. MR NTONGA Okay and you said these ...[inaudible] entered this room and hid behind a pillar? MR PAMA That is so. MR NTONGA And you say that the shooting started from around the pillar without any warning? MR PAMA As they were hiding behind the pillar he appeared to Mr Mankumba and he shot at him. I tried also to hide behind a pillar and he shot at me. MR NTONGA At that time what was Mr Mankumba, the security doing when he was shot by one of these men? MR PAMA As we were asking from him what is happening wherever at the process of registration he was next to me. MR NTONGA I assume that he was talking to you, standing up talking to you, trying to explain whatever you're asking from him? MR PAMA That is so, we were talking, all of us. MR NTONGA How many were you there while you were talking with this Mr Mankumba? MR PAMA It was me, Sergeant Mkizwayo, Sergeant Klokozile and another gentleman who was a security man who I do not know. MR NTONGA So you were five in all? MR PAMA That is so except the others who were around there that I thought may be some of the workers of the university. MR NTONGA And after the first shot which hit the security guard you say that you tried to take out your own firearm but you were shot by the same person? MR PAMA That is so. MR NTONGA And thereafter you lost consciousness and don't know what happened until you regained it? MR PAMA That is so. MR NTONGA At the time you regained your consciousness, where were these three or four men? MR PAMA At that time I only saw one, the one who was carrying this bag, I could not see others where they were. MR NTONGA Well I be correct to assume that you did not see the second policeman being shot or injured? MR PAMA The second policeman, when he was shot, I could not see him, I did not see that. MR NTONGA At the time you regained consciousness he was already injured or shot at? MR PAMA It is true, he was already injured - shot. MR NTONGA I see. ADV. SANDI Sorry Mr Ntonga the second policeman you're talking about is that Mr Mkizwayo? MR PAMA It is a Mr Mkizwayo, the one who was shot at. MR NTONGA I see. As far as this attack at the UNITRA auditorium, that's all you know about it - what you have said to the Commission now? Or let's put it the other way around - is that all you saw that day. The entering of the three people or four, hiding behind a pillar and shooting at you and you lost consciousness? MR PAMA That's all I can remember. MR NTONGA You remember telling the Commission that on the steps there was a gentleman and a girl, steps leading to the auditorium? MR PAMA A man and a lady yes. I did not say they were going up, I said they were sitting down. MR NTONGA Yes on the steps leading to the auditorium, that's what I'm trying to say. MR PAMA That is so. MR NTONGA Do you know the gentleman and the lady? MR PAMA I did not know them because that was the first time that I went there, I did not know the people who were there. MR NTONGA Okay, the gentleman who sat there made a statement which is part of this record 25, the bound record. His name is Atta Kwadiso. I refer his statement, Mr Pama, because in his statement, page 25 the third paragraph, he said that he saw a man with two guns going up those steps ordering him to lie down, two firearms on his hand. You see that? Do you have any comments on that? MR PAMA I cannot comment because I did not see any guns in his hands, that's what he says. MR NTONGA On page 26, the same statement paragraph four, this man says that the security officer who was under cover all the time, he was trying to jump over the chairs for safer cover when he was shot. That is the first man to be shot and was shot fatally. He was coming from one cover to another cover which were a safer cover when he was shot. Do you have any comments on that? MR PAMA It may be that he fell, I did not know that he ran because the person who appeared did not say anything he simply shot. That he tried to run away, I do not know that. MR NTONGA No you are missing the point, the first person to be shot and who was fatally shot was the UNITRA security guard, isn't that so? MR PAMA I said that is so, I said that from the beginning that he was the first person who was shot. MR NTONGA And in accordance with your evidence he was shot whilst talking to you when you are trying to get some directions about the money, taking over duty, isn't that so? MR PAMA That is so as we were talking this person simply shot at us. MR NTONGA Fine. I'm asking your comment about what had been said in this paragraph that he was actually coming out of cover to get a safer cover and he was shot, jumping over chairs? ADV. GCABASHE You're looking at paragraph four I presume? It was when they reappeared carrying guns, I'm not sure that your interpretation of that is correct. The sequence may be different. When they reappeared - they appeared which tallies with what the witness is saying and a shooting took place - they went in, took the bags and then this other security guard did something else unless I understand the context of that? CHAIRPERSON I agree and don't you think you should read the last sentence in paragraph two? At the door he fired two shots whilst entering. Doesn't that accord with this witnesses version? Two shots were fired, he became unconscious. MR NTONGA Sorry, Mr Chairman, my mike was off. Let me leave that for the time being. If you read paragraph five of the same statement that is "after the shooting of a security guard, I then realised that more shooting took place before this culprit took over and as a result two policemen were already injured but I have in mind that the other policeman was shot by the culprit who was the last to go." Will my interpretation be correct if I say that when they reappeared from where they've gone to with these guns, on their way out the shot a security policeman and two policemen? I you don't follow say so, I'm not saying I'm correct? MR PAMA Are you saying they again shot a security guard? I say a security guard was shot only once, he was not shot again. MR NTONGA ...[inaudible] correct of paragraph four and five that when they reappeared on their way they shot a security guard plus two policemen? These are correct? MR PAMA That is not so. MR NTONGA Okay. MR PRIOR Sorry, Mr Ntonga, it's clear from the documentation that the deceased was shot twice, that the post mortem makes clear. But the precise order in which it happened is a bit confused so maybe that's what you can follow up if you need to. MR NTONGA From the statement I agree that there was a shooting when there was an entering but when they reappeared established a description of all the shooting thereafter. My question, is it right in the application to say there was a first shooting when they entered the door and they reappeared on when they reappeared then carrying suitcases that's after the taking of the money then they shot the security and two policemen. Will this be correct interpretation? MR PAMA I think again shot two policemen, I did not know that because I was only shot once, I was not shot twice. MR NTONGA So this, what is contained here will not be the right sequence? Three men were injured, okay, but the sequence that is in this statement is not like what you have said? MR PAMA I am only testifying to what I saw happening there. MR NTONGA You were asked by my learned friend whether you heard any people asking people to lie down and you said not here that before you were shot, remember? MR PAMA That is true. MR NTONGA And in the statement of Kwadiso he was also told to lie down even before they entered the auditorium on the steps. I assume you were not near enough to hear that? MR PAMA Before they entered the auditorium. MR LAX Sorry Mr Ntonga, the steps are inside the auditorium. No, the steps lead to the office where they were counting the money and where the registration was happening but it's inside the big auditorium. MR NTONGA When you went past the lady and the gentleman, whoever followed you or went the same way will go past them into where you were and where you were shot? Is that correct? MR PAMA I cannot understand you. MR NTONGA Did you see the lady and the gentleman on the way to where you were shot, the steps that I'm talking about, were they leading to where you were shot, where you were standing with the security asking for directions? MR PAMA I saw these two people they were next to us. They were apart from us and they were at the other side. MR NTONGA Could you hear, what they were talking about or could you or perhaps, they were near enough for you to hear when they'd been ordered to lie down? MR PAMA If that was said I'm sure I would have heard. ADV. GCABASHE Sorry, if I might just intervene here, how far were Wadiso and the young lady from you distance wise? MR PAMA They were about where Mr Ntonga is sitting. ADV. GCABASHE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Four to five paces? MR NTONGA And is that the reason why you say you could have heard if they were ordered to lie down as he states in his statement because of the space in between you and them? MR PAMA These people passed us, when they got to us they did not say we must lie down they simply shot at us I did not hear anything saying we must lie down. MR NTONGA I think you missed my question. I'm talking about Kwadiso and the lady whether at that distance could you either hear if somebody ordered them to lie down or you were not paying any attention to them, busy trying to get your way and directions from the security? MR PAMA I would have heard. MR NTONGA And the same distance if Kwadiso saw a man carrying two guns surely you also would have seen the man carrying two guns? MR PAMA That is true. MR NTONGA Okay. Lastly on Kwadiso, can I now say with your permission that Kwadiso's sequence of injuries although the number is the same and the definition is the same is not how it happened or if you want me to break down the question say so? MR PAMA I cannot answer that question. MR NTONGA Okay let me put it this way. In his statement he talks about reappearing carrying suitcases - but excuse me - which held money - and then stopped, telling who did what and how he was shot, that was the first security man, security man was jumping over chairs taking cover and further two other policemen. What I'm asking you is that, the list of injuries is correct maybe his sequence is not correct? You agree with me? MR PAMA I do not know how you put this, I've just told you how I saw this thing. MR NTONGA Okay let me put it this way for instance, in your evidence you say that the man next to you was shot and he fell down - that is the security - isn't that so? The man who died. MR PAMA That's what I said from the beginning. MR NTONGA And you were also shot and you fell down and lost consciousness, the second shooting now? MR PAMA That's the same question, that's the same thing I said from the beginning. MR NTONGA I'm leading up to your question, I don't want to confuse you. In Kwadiso's statement that the security was fatally shot, was jumping from cover to cover over chairs, as an experienced policeman the man you saw shot down could not be able to do that after being shot down. CHAIRPERSON Why not? He had not examined the injury, he didn't know what the injury was, all he has said is the man standing next him was shot and fell down. He was then shot and became unconscious. Why shouldn't the first man have recovered from his injury? MR NTONGA ...[inaudible] and if that is the position will number 5 of Kwadiso that thereafter two persons were shot thereafter and also not being in the right sequence, because you were the first person who was shot and another one was shot. CHAIRPERSON You see if you'd read on you'd see this man appears to be confused - if you read paragraph five: "I then realised that more shooting took place before this culprit took over and as a result two policemen were already injured but I have in mind that the other policeman was shot by the culprit who was the last to go because I saw the culprit shooting this policeman who was trying to escape. The security guard was shot by this culprit, fell down and never moved from the spot as he was later said to be dead." Now he is here saying that the security guard never moved. Isn't there a little confusion in all this? MR NTONGA I take the point Mr Chairman. I would also like to refer you to a statement by one of the people inside the counting room, if one can call it, on the question of whether they were ordered to lie down. Could the court bear with me, I had this thing marked here. That would be Mr Zondile Nchando - it's page 32 at the bottom. "I know by that time maybe I already passed out and we had our own problems but I want to draw your attention that" he states there that "the said man was unknown to me, ordered all of us to lie down, all of us complied to his instructions." MR LAX Sorry Mr Ntonga what you don't read in that is what comes before that there was a lady already screaming by that time so something else must have happened that he hasn't spoken about. Sorry I just think we've got to be fair to this witness and it's - again we're dealing with different bits of the story. This happened in a different place, this counting room is different from where possibly the shooting took place. I don't know for sure but that seems to be the impression I have. MR NTONGA That's why I said I'm not putting him in this because he might have been unconscious at the time or had his own problems at the time but from the statement there is somebody who said they were at some stage ordered to lie down. I'm not putting him to task for that, he had his own problems by then. The security people that is UNITRA security police were wearing their university security uniform. Is that correct? MR PAMA That is so. MR NTONGA And you were not wearing any uniform so you were on ordinary civilian clothes? MR PAMA That is so. MR NTONGA And you did not have your guns exposed to the public for reasons as known to you for security reasons maybe? MR PAMA That is so. MR NTONGA So inside that auditorium there were already two security in their uniform and the number was increased by three of you who were not in uniform but policemen? MR PAMA That is true. MR NTONGA Fine. The difficulty I have here is that I'm appearing for someone who was not inside the auditorium but outside and if the Chairperson allow me to ask this question - his report - the report received from the men who were inside was that the policemen in plain clothes starting shooting when they realised what was happening and then the people who were there retaliated. Do you have any comments on that? MR PAMA We were not the first to shoot. MR NTONGA I won't take it any further. MR PRIOR Can I just ask this. Did you shoot at all as far as you know? MR PAMA I never shot. ADV. GCABASHE But you drew your firearm once the security officer next to you had been shot? MR PAMA That is so. MR NTONGA Did you point it or did you draw it out of your waist and point it and he shot before you fired or exactly what happened? MR PAMA As I was drawing my gun it fell whilst I was still drawing it before I could even point it. MR NTONGA Okay. CHAIRPERSON Why did it fall? MR PAMA It was the time I was shot at. MR NTONGA So you say the time you were shot at it was in your hand? MR PAMA The time I was shot at I heard, could feel the pain of the bullet entering my body and the gun whilst I was drawing it out, fell. MR NTONGA To your knowledge did any members of the University security or other policemen fire in the auditorium or do you have no knowledge of that? MR PAMA I did not see anybody shooting or heard nobody shooting. ADV. SANDI Did you see anyone of the university security gentlemen trying to take out his firearm? MR PAMA I never saw any. ADV. SANDI You talked about Mr Mankunga or Mankupa I'm not sure if I've got the name correctly, was it Mr Mankupa? MR PAMA It was father Mankumba the one who was a security guard. ADV. SANDI What was he doing when he was shot? MR PAMA It is when we're still asking where's the gun and where is everything happening here at the auditorium. MR NTONGA Could the court just bear with me? When this happened the other policemen I assume there were also three that have come to relieve had already left the premises of the university or were they still around in the university? MR PAMA They were already gone. MR NTONGA Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions for this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTONGA MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman, just a few questions. Mr Pama, I'm the evidence leader for the Amnesty Committee, I'd like to just ask you a few questions to clarify certain points. If I understand your evidence correctly, when you arrived with your contingent, you were three in number is that correct, three policemen? MR PAMA That is so, yes. MR PRIOR Is it correct as you enter the main door of the auditorium as you look up you see the seating and then the stairs that lead up to a first level, is that correct? MR PAMA I can't understand about the first level, can you please repeat the question? MR PRIOR Well if you enter from the front door or the main door and you climb the stairs where do you go to? MR PAMA You enter from the bottom, you ascend the stairs, it's chairs all around as they are going up, you get to the top. MR PRIOR And what's at the top? MR PAMA It is the place or the room where they are registering students. MR PRIOR Alright and did you then meet up with the UNITRA security officers that is Mr Makumba and Mr Mkizwana at the top of the stairs? MR PAMA We met at the top of the stairs, they talked to father Makumba, Mr Mkizwayo and Klokozile were the ones I was walking with. MR PRIOR I see. The other policemen that had entered with you did he remain below - Mr Mkizwayo? MR PAMA We entered the place together, they were not left behind. MR PRIOR So he also said - was registration - had the registration of the students been completed at that stage or were there still students within the auditorium when you had entered? MR PAMA Because we could not determine who these people were, we could not determine whether they were students or not, there was people there but they were not many. MR PRIOR Sorry the question is more - had registration as far as you were aware at that stage, had the registration of students ended or did you not know or did you think there was still registration going on? MR PAMA We thought registration was still going on because it was still open. MR PRIOR And when these three or four persons who you believed were students who later turned out to be the attackers and you say that's the reason why you thought they were students, is that correct? MR PAMA That is so, yes. MR PRIOR Now listening to your evidence and I gain the impression and correct me if I'm mistaken that the shooting occurred very suddenly and without warning, it was an unexpected event, is that correct? MR PAMA Yes that is so. MR PRIOR And as far as you were concerned there was no warning shout for example that these people were APLA, that they were there just to take the money and that they weren't going to hurt anybody, is that correct, do I understand that to be the position? MR PAMA They did not do that, that is true. If they had done that....[intervention] MR PRIOR And Mr Makumba, sorry please continue, you say if they'd done that? MR PAMA If they had done that we would have given up because we knew they were armed, we would not have resisted. MR PRIOR And Mr Makumba was the first person that you noticed being shot is that correct? MR PAMA That is true. MR PRIOR And he was in the security uniform of the university? MR PAMA Yes that is true. MR PRIOR Are you able to tell the committee what Mr Mkizwayo or your other colleague, I think it's Totile, I forget his name, did at that stage of the shooting - do you know where they went or what they did? MR PAMA I did not know what happened to Mr Klokozile because I lost my consciousness, I did not know what he did after that, I would not know what he did when the shooting took place. MR PRIOR Why did you draw your firearm? MR PAMA Because I saw we were being shot at. MR PRIOR Then you were shot is that correct? MR PAMA Yes I was shot. MR PRIOR And you were shot once in your body is that correct? MR PAMA Yes that is true. MR PRIOR And can you just tell us where about the injury occurred on your body? MR PAMA I was shot at the left of my chest just above my nipple something like that. MR PRIOR Do you know whether the bullet passed through your body or not? MR PAMA The bullet did not go through it stayed in my body, even today. MR PRIOR And I'm interested just to find out how long were you either in hospital or incapacitated as a result of this gunshot wound? MR PAMA I was taken to the theatre when I regained my consciousness. I think I regained my consciousness after three days when I realised that I was myself now. I stayed a week in the theatre because I stayed two weeks at hospital - about three weeks at the hospital. I was then released and then I had to go around finding doctors because I'm still not feeling well with this thing in my body. Up till today I did not get satisfaction with how I got treated by the doctors. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman I have no further questions. ADV. GCABASHE Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON I think we should allow you to re-examine first if you have any? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA MR NODADA Yes chairperson just one question. Mr Pama you've been asked of the taking out or the drawing out of your firearm. Can you say exactly at what stage you decided to draw out your firearm, then where the firearm was when the shot landed on your chest? MR PAMA Can you please repeat the question? MR NODADA I'm saying you have been questioned about the drawing out of the firearm and also why you did that, but what I want to establish from you now is the position of this firearm at the time when the shot landed on you and the firearm fell was it? MR PAMA I was still drawing my gun not as yet got it to a position where I could say I could use it when it fell. MR NODADA Would you say at the time a shot was aimed at you, the firearm was already showing, in other words the firearm was already visible to other people? MR PAMA I pulled my gun, I would not know whether he saw the gun because I was still pulling the gun out. He shot the one before me and then shot me, that's when he shot the other one I then tried to pull out my gun and then he shot me. I do not know whether he saw the gun when I was pulling it out. MR NODADA Now the first shot that landed on the person who was next to you, how long did it take before the next shot came and landed on you? MR PAMA It was many minutes between the time the first one was shot and then me. It was like shooting this one and then shooting that one. MR NODADA In other words was it a question of seconds in between? MR PAMA It should be seconds. MR NODADA Where was it actually kept, this firearm on your body? MR PAMA It was on my waist. MR NODADA On your waist was it held by a holster or a belt or the waist of your pants, what was holding it to your body? MR PAMA It was held by my holster to the back of my waist. Someone who would be coming in front would not know that I had a gun at the back of my waist and it's when somebody coming from behind he would see that there is something on my waist. MR NODADA That is all Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NODADA MR PRIOR Chairman, sorry, may I just clarify on aspect if I may with permission of the Committee? Mr Pama were you shot from the front in other words the gunman who shot at you was he facing you? MR PAMA He shot me from the front, he came from the front. MR PRIOR And Mr Makumba was he also shot in other words from the front facing the gunman? MR PAMA Yes he was shot from the front, yes. MR PRIOR And lastly are you able to tell us how close to you and Mr Makumba the gunman was when he fired? Just indicate from where you are standing or sitting to a position that you can identify. MR PAMA I think he should be about where Mr Sandi or Mr Lax is sitting or about where - next to the Chairman, after the Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Three to four paces? MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, thank you, I have not further questions. ADV. GCABASHE Thank you Chair. You regained consciousness for a few minutes after you had been shot, that's what you've said? MR PAMA That is so. ADV. GCABASHE And you saw a man carrying one bag or did you see two bags, just to clarify that? MR PAMA I only saw one brown bag. ADV. GCABASHE Now you've also said that you do not know of any other shooting apart from the shooting of yourself and Mr Mankumba? MR PAMA That is so yes. ADV GCABASHE Did you get a report later or were you told later of the shooting of one of the assailants somewhere near the outside door, that would be the applicant on his version. Do you know anything about that other shooting? MR PAMA No I heard nothing of the sort. ADV. GCABASHE Thank you, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON A docket would have been prepared about this incident wouldn't it? MR PAMA After a month I asked as to who was investigating the case of UNITRA and I was told it was Captain [inaudible]. I never got to know what happened about the case up until today. CHAIRPERSON But in the ordinary course of events in a shooting incident of this nature, a docket would be prepared in which details would be given of shots fired by members of the police force wouldn't it? MR PAMA I'd like the question to be repeated please. CHAIRPERSON Normally, where there is a shooting incident involving members of the police force the docket would contain details of shots fired by the members of the police force, how they, why they shot and why they came to shoot? If they did any shooting. MR PAMA Yes that is true. CHAIRPERSON Now you've told us that when you regained consciousness you discovered your gun had gone, did you ever get it back? MR PAMA No from then I never got my gun back. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR NODADA Mr Chairman as I indicated yesterday I was going to call two witnesses but between that time and now the other witness was rather hesitant about giving evidence. I don't know whether he has changed his mind and has finally decided. CHAIRPERSON It would be a very convenient stage to take the adjournment and you can decide then. We will take a short adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS. ON RESUMPTION MR PRIOR Mr Chairman before Mr Nodada calls his next witness I understood the Committee wanted to know the type or description of firearms that Pama had and it's common cause that the firearm that he had in his possession and then lost during the incident was a 9 mm. Parabellum Z88 which was standard police issue at the time. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Does everybody agree with that? MR NODADA Mr Chairman, I'm now calling the evidence of the second witness. MR PRIOR Please can we have your full names just for the record? WILBERFORCE SANDLA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA MR NODADA You are currently a member of the South African Police Services stationed in Umtata? MR SANDLA Yes. MR NODADA You were previously a member, that is before 1994, you were a member of the Transkeian Police and you were stationed in Umtata? MR SANDLA Yes it is true MR NODADA What rank do you hold in the police force? MR SANDLA A sergeant. MR NODADA What was your rank in 1993? MR SANDLA I was a constable. MR NODADA I want you to cast your memories to the events of the 18th February 1993 when you were deployed at the University of Transkei to perform some guard duties. What time did you arrive at the university? MR SANDLA We got there about past five. MR NODADA How many policemen were you? MR SANDLA We were three. MR NODADA I understand you were to take over from other members who were knocking off at almost about the same time? MR SANDLA That is so. MR NODADA Right. When you got to the university did you know where the place where you were going to perform your guard duties? MR SANDLA We did not know it. MR NODADA Who showed you the place? MR SANDLA It was Mr Makumba who was a security guard there. MR NODADA A university security guard? MR SANDLA That is so. MR NODADA Where did you meet him? MR SANDLA We met him at the last row of the chairs at the university as they have levels going up. MR NODADA Is it correct you were actually directed to go to the auditorium of the university and that is where you met Mr Mankumba? MR SANDLA That is so yes. MR NODADA I suppose you introduced yourselves to him and he also introduced himself to you and then what happened after that? MR SANDLA He introduced us he told us that he's a worker there at the University of Transkei and told us what he was doing. He never ultimately showed us inside where the monies were kept. MR NODADA Was it your first time to set foot at this auditorium? MR SANDLA Yes it was my first time. MR NODADA Right, you got inside, did you find any people inside other than this Mr Mankumba? MR SANDLA Yes there were other people inside. MR NODADA What people were those? What were they doing? MR SANDLA When I noted I saw that there were also security guards as they were wearing the university uniforms and others wearing privately that I thought were maybe clerks working there. MR NODADA Right, you got inside, met Mr Mankumba and obviously security officers and then what happened. MR SANDLA Then he introduced himself to us and then I left him standing with Pama and I went to another security guard of the university to whom I asked as to whether we cannot close two of the three doors so as to leave one entrance for use. MR NODADA Yes, was that suggestion upheld? MR SANDLA That is so yes. MR NODADA Right and then did anybody take steps to close those doors and if so who was it? MR SANDLA I was told that I may close those doors myself. MR NODADA Who said that to you? MR SANDLA It is the security guard I was talking to. MR NODADA Right and thereafter what happened, did you go to close the doors? MR SANDLA I moved as though I was jumping over a door going to close a door behind, I hear bullet shots. MR NODADA Excuse me Mr Chairman, there seems to be a mistake in the interpretation, the interpreter said he jumped over a door and yet the witness was saying over a chair, can you just rectify that? INTERPRETER I beg you pardon, he jumped over a chair going to a door behind to close it then he heard bullet shots. MR NODADA You heard those bullet shots, were you able to detect from which direction they were, whether they were inside or outside? MR SANDLA I could not determine where they were sounding from. What happened when I heard them, I turned around to see where perhaps they may be coming from. MR NODADA Yes, carry on. MR SANDLA On my turning around I was trying to draw my own gun. I had pains on my leg which confused my brain and I was trying to respond to a person who was wearing a khaki cap, you know, wearing also a overjacket, a khaki overjacket, wearing a striped pair of trousers. MR NODADA Okay, let's go back a bit, go back to this something which you felt on your leg. Can you repeat what you felt on your leg? MR SANDLA I felt something hitting very hard like a doctor's injection on my leg. MR NODADA And what happened to you immediately after that feeling on your leg? MR SANDLA I drew a gun, hoping to respond to this gun that I thought was shooting. I saw this person wearing a khaki cap, a khaki overcoat and a striped pair of trousers. MR NODADA Yes, what did you do with the firearm which you drew out? MR SANDLA After that when I tried to look at him to identify him I heard bullets from behind at me. At the top of my right leg and I fell on my back, you know, unconscious afterwards. MR NODADA I want you to tell us what you did with your own firearm when you drew it out, what did you do? MR SANDLA The only shot that went out was one that went into the air because it was when I was already shot and confused. MR LAX Sorry, are you saying that you fired a shot? MR SANDLA Yes that is so. ADV. GCABASHE But you don't know which direction that shot went in, you simply drew your firearm and shot? MR SANDLA I shot into the air at that time not really able to respond properly to the situation. MR NODADA Why did you shoot? MR SANDLA It's because I heard that we were being shot at and I too had been shot at the time. ADV. GCABASHE Were you facing the chap in the khaki jacket at the time you drew your firearm or were you facing in a different direction? MR SANDLA I was looking at this khaki clad person. INTERPRETER I think I cannot properly understand what the witness is saying? MR SANDLA I was looking sideways at him. MR NODADA Why did you decide to draw out a firearm? What made you decide to do that? MR SANDLA Because I heard the two gunshots going up. MR NODADA Now how long after you had heard the two gunshots did you feel something striking you on your right leg? MR SANDLA I could say that it was something happening within three seconds. MR NODADA Where was your firearm on your body? MR SANDLA In a holster in my waist. MR NODADA Right and after you had fired this shot in the air what happened? MR SANDLA I felt something hitting on my leg like a very strong injection, I fell down then. MR NODADA Now this something which fell you down was it first or second or third, you have mentioned some similar striking on your leg. The one that actually put you to the ground, was it the first one or some other subsequent one? MR SANDLA I cannot remember because there was a number of bullets hitting me then. MR NODADA You fell down and thereafter what happened? MR SANDLA I fell unconscious. MR NODADA Where were you when you regained consciousness? MR SANDLA I regained consciousness on hearing people asking people what tragedy is this. MR NODADA Where were you? MR SANDLA I was lying on the ground. MR NODADA Where? Still in the same auditorium or somewhere else? MR SANDLA Still in the auditorium. MR NODADA Now when you felt this something striking you on your leg had you already reached the door you were going to close or were you still on you way to it? MR SANDLA I was still on my way to it. MR NTONGA And how far were you from that door if you can estimate? MR SANDLA I may say from here to Mr B B Ntonga, that's the distance of the - between myself and the door. CHAIRPERSON Already estimated at about five paces. MR NODADA Right, how was that door opened, was it wide opened or was it just ajar or was it partly closed but clearly not closed properly? MR SANDLA They were differently opened - others half open others a bit open. MR NODADA I'm asking you about the one you were proceeding to. How was it opened, half opened? CHAIRPERSON Was it a single door or a double door? MR SANDLA It was one door. MR NODADA Right and how was it opened? MR SANDLA It was widely open. MR NODADA Did you see anybody outside or immediately outside that door as you were proceeding to it? MR SANDLA I saw nobody. MR NODADA Can you give us an estimation of the number of people who were inside this hall, this auditorium, at the time you arrived? MR SANDLA It was about ten people. MR NODADA Does that include people who were in the rooms inside the auditorium where apparently money was being kept and counted? MR SANDLA Yes, that is so. MR NODADA Were you the last people to enter this hall when in your observation or were there any other people who subsequently entered after you had got inside? MR SANDLA There were people going in and out. We would not know whether it was clerks because you found those people there. MR NODADA Were they mostly men or mostly women or women only or men only? MR SANDLA There were men there were also females. MR NODADA And those who were in the auditorium, what did they appear to be doing there? MR SANDLA They were just there doing nothing really. MR NODADA Were they standing or milling around or sitting? MR SANDLA There were those who were sitting down and those who were moving up and down, in and out. MR NODADA Was it quiet in this room like it is in this hall? MR SANDLA There was music, not loud but quite soft. MR NODADA Music from where? You mean people singing live or music from a radio or some CD's played, what music was this? MR SANDLA I noted a speaker, I could not determine where the music was coming from actually. MR NODADA Was it loud music or soft music? MR SANDLA It was soft music. MR NODADA Alright, before you were shot at, did you see anybody being shot? MR SANDLA No, I did not see anybody. MR NODADA Did you hear anybody making an exclamation about the shooting? MR SANDLA No I heard nobody. MR NODADA Did you see anybody carrying a firearm or people carrying firearms before you heard the first shot? MR SANDLA I saw nobody. MR NODADA Now when you heard the first shot or the first two shots that appeared to be following in close succession. Where was Sergeant Pama who was on duty with you? MR SANDLA I ask the question to be repeated please. MR NODADA I want to know where Sergeant Pama was when you heard the first shot, do you know? Did you see him where he was? MR SANDLA I only turned round when I heard two shots. When he drew his pistol out because I saw that we're being shot at, there were shots from behind them and then I saw this person with the khaki cap wearing an overjacket which was khaki and striped pair of trousers. I did not see Pama. INTERPRETER By the way just to correct, I think he may have meant him drawing out a gun, not Pama. MR NODADA Yes. So you when you said, you said when you drew out your pistol, not when he drew out a pistol? MR SANDLA At the time two shots were ringing out, I turned about and I realised that we're being shot at, I drew my own gun and then I heard other shots from behind me and then I saw this vaguely wearing this cap, wearing this khaki jacket and these pair of trousers that is striped. MR NODADA Did you see any policemen or security officer shooting in that auditorium? MR SANDLA I did not see anybody. MR NODADA Before there was this shooting, had there been any warning or announcement about the presence of people who were there on a certain mission like to get the money or to repossess the money? MR SANDLA No, nobody like that was there. MR NODADA In other words this shooting just happened all of a sudden without any premonition? MR SANDLA That is so yes. MR NODADA Does that also mean that you didn't hear anybody directing that you people should lie down and so on and so on? MR SANDLA No, I heard no one. MR NODADA Did you ever at any stage enter the room where money was counted? MR SANDLA No, I did not go in there. MR NODADA Do I understand you to mean that you never saw any money there or any money container? MR SANDLA Yes, that is so. MR NODADA Alright, what injuries did you sustain on this day? MR SANDLA I was hit three times in my legs, one leg was broken. MR NODADA And where did you receive treatment for those injuries? MR SANDLA At St Dominique's here in East London. MR NODADA For how long were you detained at the hospital? MR SANDLA I spent about 28 days. MR NODADA Have you fully recovered from those injuries? MR SANDLA I have not properly recovered so much so I'm talking about more sick leaves at work. MR NODADA Now that bullets that penetrated you leg did they go through the body or are there any of them that are still in your body? MR SANDLA Two went through and the third was taken out here in St Dominique's East London. MR NODADA Right let's go back to the auditorium. When you regained consciousness, did you see Mr Pama again? MR SANDLA Yes that is so. MR NODADA Where was he when you saw him? MR SANDLA I saw him lying on his back on his top was Mr Mankumba. MR NODADA How far were they from you? MR SANDLA They were about where the interpreters are sitting. CHAIRPERSON Eight to ten paces. MR NODADA And from the scene of this incident you were all removed to hospital? MR SANDLA I was the first to be removed. When I tried to move I noticed that this leg was broken and I requested one security guard to take me on his back to the van. Others followed after me. MR NODADA Apart from the three of you that is Mr Pama, yourself and Mr Makumba, were there any other people who were injured on this day that you know of? MR SANDLA No, I know of no other person? MR NODADA And you never heard that any of the students or university clerks who were involved in the counting of the money and keeping of money were ever injured on this day? MR SANDLA That is so, I never heard anything. MR NODADA That is all Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NODADA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NTONGA MR NTONGA Mr Sandla, when you entered the auditorium in company of Mr Pama where were you in relation to him when you entered the auditorium and talked to a security guard asking for direction? MR SANDLA If I can compare within this hall we were at the right side at the top. MR NTONGA Is that where yourself, Mr Pama and the other gentleman ...[inaudible] were asking directions from Mr Mankumba - security? Is that the place you are talking about? MR SANDLA Yes that is so. MR NTONGA Whilst talking to the security did you see any people entering the auditorium? MR SANDLA No, I did not see anybody. MR NTONGA Whilst still talking to the security asking for direction did you see any people going around a pillar, three or to four gentlemen? MR SANDLA No, I did not see them except those people who were moving up and down, in and out of the hall. MR NTONGA Are you saying to this Commission that at the time the shooting started you were no longer in the same place with Mr Pama and the late gentleman, Mr Mkizwayo, sorry Mr Makumba. MR LAX Sorry, what do you mean are you saying that you were no longer in the same room? Rather put the question a bit more fairly to him, really. MR NTONGA At the time the shooting started, you yourself were not standing in the same place asking for direction from Mr Mankumba with Mr Pama? MR SANDLA Yes that is so. MR NTONGA At what stage did you leave their company when Mr Pama was still asking for directions? MR SANDLA After he had told us that he's working here and that the duty is to guard the money. MR NTONGA Had he at that stage given you directions to where you're supposed to go and where the money was being counted, when you left Mr Pama and the late gentleman? MR SANDLA He showed us the office where the money's being counted and that those who were working with the money are in that office attached to the hall. MR NTONGA And then what did you three do after being given a direction by the security, did you leave him there and proceed to towards your goal? MR SANDLA I was the one who left first and went to another security guard to ask about the three doors that are open and as to whether we cannot close two of those so that one entrance may be used for entrance and exit. MR NTONGA Where did they go, the other two policemen, Mr Pama, did they remain with the security or did they go somewhere else? MR SANDLA Mr Pama was left or stayed with the security, standing apart and Mr Klokozile went to his position and I was at the time walking towards this security guard I was talking about. MR NTONGA Okay, so are you saying that after you have been given the directions by the security you took position inside the auditorium. That is yourself, the other gentleman and Mr Pama? CHAIRPERSON He didn't say that. He said he was walking towards the other security guard to ask about the doors, he didn't say he had taken position. MR NTONGA What did your two colleagues do after being given directions, did they take position or did they remain with the security or do anything whilst you were going to look at the doors? MR SANDLA I left Mr Pama with that security guard, the security guard Mr Mankumba. At the time Mr Klokozile had gone to his position apart from them. MR NTONGA Was Mr Pama still talking to the security or what was he doing when you left them having given directions? MR SANDLA When I left, they were still talking, I do not know whether they're still continuing talking whilst I was talking with the other security guard. MR NTONGA I see. Let's go back. Before you entered the place where you met the security on the stairs, did you meet somebody? MR SANDLA Can it be repeated please - are you talking about the security guard we got and met the first time or the one I met the second time, can the question be repeated please? MR NTONGA Okay, before you met the first security guard, Mr Makumba, did you meet somebody or some people on the stairs before you met him, that's the first security guard? MR SANDLA We found people there. Mr Makumba was the first person we got to talk to. MR NTONGA I'm not talking about inside the auditorium, on the steps leading to the auditorium or let me put it this way, when you entered the auditorium where you were concerned about doors, who was the first person you met inside there? Was it the security guard where you asked for directions? Inside now? MR SANDLA We did not see any other person as we arrived all three of us and relieved the three other policemen who left. MR NTONGA Were they still inside the auditorium when you arrived, the other three gentlemen? MR SANDLA Yes they were still inside. MR NTONGA And at the time Mr - the policeman who was talking to security, where were they, were they still there? The other three gentlemen you went to relieve? What were they doing the other three policemen? INTERPRETER There's a misunderstanding, can the question be properly asked please again to the witness. MR NTONGA I'm sorry - the three gentlemen that you were supposed to relieve that is the three policemen, did you find them inside the auditorium or did you find them outside when you went in? MR SANDLA Yes they were still there. MR NTONGA Inside the auditorium? MR SANDLA Yes. MR NTONGA Okay, at the time you were talking to the first security man asking for direction, they were with you or not with you or they left? MR SANDLA They were in the process of leaving the hall. MR NTONGA You say that there was some movement there, people whom we're not sure they were students or clerks, others going out, others coming in? MR SANDLA Yes it is so. MR NTONGA And you say that at no stage did you see some strange people that you might have suspected? MR SANDLA I said when we got there we saw people who may have been clerks and those were wearing green clothes who were security guards of the university. MR NTONGA Security guards were only about two or more than two? The university guards wearing the uniform? MR SANDLA There were two. MR NTONGA Okay, now you have left the Mr Pama and the security and the other man, that is the other policeman, has gone somewhere, and you are talking to the second security man asking about the position of the doors whether to shut them or not. Were you having your back to them, that Mr at security, the first one and the policeman or were you in a position to see them when you were going towards this door that you wanted to close down? MR SANDLA May I request that the question please be repeated? MR NTONGA Okay, on your way to the second security guard having left Mr Pama behind with the first guard were they at your back side or front or at a position or angle where you could still see them or they could not see them at all? MR SANDLA I could not see them because it was kind of a half circle at the last room and when I left them going to the security guard I could not have seen them. MR NTONGA I see and you say that exactly when and what were you doing when you heard the first gunshot? MR PRIOR Sorry what's the translation please? MR SANDLA I was going to close the doors. MR NTONGA I know you were going to close the door but can you give us a description, were you at the time you were jumping over a chair or ready to jump the chair or make for the door, when you heard the first shot, if you can remember? MR SANDLA I jumped over a chair before the shooting happened. When I was now putting down my second leg down I heard the two shots facing to the back. MR NTONGA Are you saying that you heard the two shots at your back - from your back ...[inaudible] facing the back -the shot from your back? MR SANDLA I mean the doors were at the back upstairs. I was going that way and the bullets or the ringing of the bullets was at the back. MR NTONGA I understand you now. When you heard the first shot what was your reaction? MR SANDLA When I heard the two first bullets I realised that we're being shot at. I drew my pistol - as I was drawing that pistol I heard a barrage of bullets behind me. As I was turning around trying to respond to this person who was this side, who had this khaki cap drawn into his face, with this khaki jacket and a striped pair of trousers. It was as if I had a very strong injection and I was then dizzy kind of and then I fell. MR NTONGA Okay, are you saying to the Commission that you only drew your firearm after the two shots not before the last shot after the first one? Only after the two shots? MR SANDLA I drew my gun after hearing those two first shots. When I was then drawing this gun I heard other shots into my body and I shot into the air or into the roof. MR NTONGA So after hearing two shots, you drew your gun and you were hit as you say is something like a doctor's injection. Where were you hit on your body? The first injury you received? MR SANDLA I was hit by three bullets in my leg, I could not calculate. MR NTONGA Okay, after the first injury, the one like a doctor, were you still trying to bring your gun into play? MR SANDLA I drew this gun when I heard these two shots and on my drawing this gun, I heard - I felt this shots against my body. MR NTONGA Okay. ADV. GCABASHE Could I - sorry can I just ask a quick question. The injuries you sustained, you sustained on your right thigh, you're indicating your right thigh as you sit here next to me, is that correct? MR SANDLA Yes that is so. ADV. GCABASHE Thank you. MR NTONGA At the time you received this first injection where was your gun, fully drawn, being brought to play or in the process of being drawn? Do you still remember or you can't? MR SANDLA I drew my gun when I heard these two shots. After having drawn my gun I felt this shots against my thigh from the back. MR NTONGA Okay, so you already had it in your hand when you were shot? If I'm correct say so, if not correct me. After hearing the two shots you had it drawn up in your hand before you were hit? MR SANDLA I drew my gun after hearing the first two shots. MR NTONGA Yes I said that I agree with you but I'm saying that before you yourself were hit, it was already in your hand, that's what I'm trying to establish, the gun, your gun? MR LAX Sorry, Mr Ntonga really, if he drew his gun it could only be in his hand, it couldn't be anywhere else so let's not belabour point, I think you've made the point. MR NTONGA And after hearing the first injury what you didn't do with your gun that is after being hit for the first time, what did you do with the gun? That's before you lost your consciousness? MR SANDLA I was shot many times, about three times on my leg but because I could not count them then, I fell and became unconscious. CHAIRPERSON When did you fire the shot was it after you had been shot? MR SANDLA I fired my gun after being hit on my leg, firing into the air. MR NTONGA And having fired you lost consciousness am I correct? MR SANDLA May the question please be repeated? MR NTONGA After you fired your own gun now, did you thereafter, being hit on your leg and you fell down there and lost consciousness, is that correct or not? Or the other way around, did you receive further shots after you fired your own gun which made you to lose your consciousness and fall down? MR NTONGA You don't follow me? MR SANDLA I'd like the question to be asked slowly, I cannot follow it properly. MR NTONGA Okay, you have told the Chairperson that you did fire your gun but this was before you fell down I assume, is that correct, and lost consciousness before that, is that correct? MR SANDLA That is so yes. MR NTONGA Now I want to know whether you did the firing after you had been hit with the three bullets as you claim or in between? MR SANDLA I shot one shot after having been shot myself. ADV. GCABASHE Sorry, can you say that again, I'm not sure the translation was correct, can you just give the answer again? MR SANDLA I fired after being shot myself responding to this person with a khaki cap drawn into his face wearing a striped pair of trousers. I shot into the air trying to respond to him and my shot went into the air. MR NTONGA I'll ask this question for the last time. If you can't remember the sequence please say so, I'm not wishing you to remember it, is it after you had been shot once then you reacted and then you were shot thereafter and then you fell down. Is that the correct sequence? Or you shot after being shot by all three bullets but before you went down? Which is the correct sequence - if you remember, you can say so if you don't remember, if don't you can say so. MR SANDLA When two shots rang out while I was trying to go and close the door after having jumped over a chair, I tried to turn around, drawing my pistol. I was shot from behind and then I shot into the air having seen vaguely this person with the khaki cap drawn into his face wearing a khaki jacket and a striped pair of trousers. MR NTONGA Okay, now I follow you. CHAIRPERSON The question is though after you had shot into the air vaguely at this person in khaki were you shot again and did you then fall down? MR SANDLA After that I fell down and was unconscious. MR LAX Sorry the one part you didn't answer was were you shot before you fell down and were unconscious, were you shot again? CHAIRPERSON You were shot once you have told us, you then fired into the air, were you then shot again before you fell down? MR SANDLA Two shots rang out whilst I was going to close the door, jumping over a chair, I drew my gun trying to respond, I was hit by bullets from behind, trying to respond to that person I saw vaguely to the side, wearing this cap, wearing a khaki jacket and a striped pair of trousers, I then fell. The bullets are coming from behind me. MR NTONGA Thank you Mr Chairman. Just one thing of interest Mr Sandla, I'm subject to Chairman's assentient on that. Why do you start always from one point whenever you answer a question: "After I heard two bullets" - when the question's far from that? MR SANDLA Can you please repeat yourself sir? MR NTONGA I'm saying I'm subject to censure by the Chairman on this point. I'm asking it for interest sake, why...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Isn't it really argument? MR NTONGA Do I understand you clearly that the reason why you shot up on the air is that after you had been hit for the first time you were confused, you couldn't take proper aim, whatever it is, on your assailants although you're trying to start to shoot at them. Is that the reason why you shot at the air not at your assailants? MR SANDLA It is because I had been hit by bullets from behind and this was so strong I became dizzy in my head. MR NTONGA Okay. So you are saying all in all you did not see how the security men and Mr Pama were injured? That is the first man who died and the policeman who was also injured? You did not see them, how they were injured? MR SANDLA After I recovered my consciousness I saw Mr Mankumba and Mr Pama lying about where the interpreters are sitting. After I regained my consciousness I saw them lying there. MR NTONGA Where you were standing and where you were shot next the door is there a pillar around there, if you still remember this please, I understand you were there for the first time? Is there some pillar around -next to the door where you were hit - you yourself were hit? MR SANDLA No, one that was there it was a bit far from where I was. MR NTONGA Was it next or near where Mr Pama and his security have fallen down? The pillar? MR SANDLA Yes that is so. MR NTONGA What happened to the second security man who was in the auditorium to whom you have been talking about closing the doors, do you know or not? When you've been shot and after you have regained consciousness did you see him again? MR SANDLA The last time I saw him was when we're still talking, that was the last time. MR NTONGA Did you note whether they were armed that is security people from UNITRA or not? MR SANDLA I did not take special notice because they were wearing their jackets. MR NTONGA The people, you say there were ten people inside the auditorium coming in, going out, did you notice any of them being armed? MR SANDLA No. MR NTONGA And if for instance one was armed with two guns going to the auditorium you could have seen him or it was not possible to see him? MR SANDLA I would not have seen if the guns were not exposed which was not held by hand. MR NTONGA So if they were held by hand you would have seen them, especially men armed with two guns? MR SANDLA Yes that is so. ADV. SANDI Mr Ntonga, can I just ask a question whilst you're getting yourself ready? Mr Sandla, I notice from the records that we're talking about an incident here which happened more than five years ago, do you agree with that? If you count from 1993 to 1998 that's about five years. Now what I want to ask you with what degree of certainty are you able to recall the exact sequence of events? MR SANDLA I'm certain because they were happening to me personally. ADV. SANDI The fact that this is an incident which happened more than five years ago is something which would not effect your ability to remember the exact order of events, is that what you're saying? MR SANDLA I could not forget it because it disturbed my whole life. ADV. SANDI Thank you. MR NTONGA Let's talk about the two shots that we heard - the first two shots. How far apart can you say they were? In minutes, seconds, hours? MR SANDLA They were not something like those from a machine gun. MR NTONGA So there was a space in between? Time factors please? MR SANDLA The difference when you shoot with a machine gun you can hear that this is an automatic. When there's one that is held by hand it can be heard, I mean it did not sound like a machine gun. MR NTONGA By that answer are you saying that you can't give me an estimation about how far apart - was it a second, two seconds and hour? There's one thing, if you can't say so, say so please. MR SANDLA I could not estimate when I was hit - I was confused my brain was not working properly but I could hear the sound was not that of a machine gun. MR NTONGA I'm sorry if I confused you I was talking about the first two shots that was before you were shot. If I confused you I apologise for that. I was talking about the first, before you drew your firearm and you - was said you were hit. I accept the answer that you cannot say how long but if there's any confusion with that you can correct it now. MR SANDLA The first two shots I heard before responding I - they sounded like those coming from a 9 mm. CHAIRPERSON How far apart were they, can you indicate, one shot, two shots - how far apart were they? MR SANDLA It sounded - kwa-kwa. MR NTONGA Thank you Mr Chairman. And you have told the Commission that after you were hit with a bullet for the first time, having drawn your firearm you were confused, you could not aim, this problem, this man - was shot in the air. Remember that? You own response, you own response when you shot, remember that, is that correct? MR SANDLA Yes that is so. MR NTONGA I want to ask if you were confused how do you remember that you shot at the air instead of saying I was confused, I should not know what happened, where it landed? MR SANDLA Because when the shot hit me I felt like I was going up and I noted that the gun was pointing up, that's the last time I remember and I felt like there was a very strong injection into me from a doctor. MR NTONGA Why do say that was the last time you remember, was that when you lost consciousness after the shooting or after a further shooting at you? MR SANDLA After I was shot I remember while I was hit that I was trying to respond to this person wearing a khaki cap, with a khaki jacket and a striped pair of trousers. ADV. GCABASHE Thank you. Mr Sandla can you just count the total number of shots that you heard including the ones that were directed at you for me? If you can start with the first two. I just trying to determine which were the ones that - whether the first two were the ones that hit the security officer and Mr Pama and then the others hit you and then there was another one, can you just total those for me? I can break the question down for you if you'd if you'd like me to? MR SANDLA I heard two shots ringing. ADV. GCABASHE Now those shots did not hit you, you just heard these two, and then? And the next one hit you? MR SANDLA Yes they hit me. ADV. GCABASHE Those were two, as you drew your firearm, then two hit you and then a third one after you had drawn your firearm is that correct? CHAIRPERSON He hasn't said that. ADV. GCABASHE That's why I'm asking. MR SANDLA After I heard - after I had regained my consciousness I noted that there were three bullets in my leg but they were shooting me they sounded like a barrage. ADV. GCABASHE So the ones you can clearly identify were the first two that didn't hit you and then the ones that hit you as you were drawing your firearm, those were the ones you can clearly identify? MR SANDLA I am certain about the two I heard whilst I was going to close the door. ADV. GCABASHE Thank you. MR NTONGA I think it's a convenient time to adjourn now. CHAIRPERSON We will now take the adjournment to a quarter to two. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION WILBERFORCE SANDLA (s.u.o.) MR NTONGA (continues) In one of your replies to a question from the Commission, you talked about a barrage of shots. Can you explain that - what you meant? MR SANDLA I meant the bullets that entered my body, my leg through the back. CHAIRPERSON As I understood your evidence though when you were talking about this barrage of bullets you meant that you weren't sure how many bullets were fired at you, a number of bullets were fired at you, you know that three of them entered your body. Is that correct? MR SANDLA I only got to know when I regained my consciousness as to how many entered my body. CHAIRPERSON But you did not know how many shots were fired at you? MR SANDLA That is so, yes. MR NTONGA The place where you were when you were shot, you were about - you say you were about eight to ten paces from where the other policeman and the security was shot, am I correct? MR SANDLA I did not talk about a number of feet. CHAIRPERSON You said from where you were sitting to the interpreters, you were that far away. MR NTONGA Were they nearer to the place where they - that is the policeman and the security - were they nearer the place where the money was being counted as compared to you? MR SANDLA They were at the row downwards or below the office attached to the hall. MR NTONGA But they were at the same level with that office although below it somewhere, somehow? At the same floor? MR SANDLA I can say there were the distance of where I'm sitting to the glasses sitting the interpreters, the first security man and then the second security guard was standing with Pama. MR NTONGA So the first security was nearer to the place where the money was being counted - that's compared the first one that was with Mr Pama - or the other way around? MR SANDLA The security guard we talked with first was further away from where the money was counted and then the second one I was asking about the doors to be closed and so on, was the one closer to the office related to monies. The distance as pointed out between him and the ...[inaudible] MR NTONGA The applicant in this application version is that he was outside, he didn't see what was happening inside the auditorium but he received a report from those people that they people who started shooting were the policemen in plain clothes. Do you have any comments on that? MR SANDLA That is not so. MR NTONGA That is not so even when you did not see the first shots, how they were fired and by whom because they were being fired at your back whilst you were going to close the door? MR SANDLA I ask the question to be repeated please. MR NTONGA I'm saying that the report which was received by the applicant that the policemen wearing plain clothes inside started shooting and then there was a shooting in the auditorium - he himself, outside and your reply was that that is not so. So the question is, do you say so despite the fact that you were not looking at where Mr Pama and the security were when the two shots were fired because they were at your back and you were going to close the door? MR SANDLA I'm still maintaining yes. MR NTONGA Despite that? Okay fine. Is it not correct that your evidence is not your evidence that you did not see who fired the shots or did not see what happened. You heard them...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON He saw - did you see the bodies lying there where they had been standing, Pama and the other man, you saw their bodies when you recovered, lying where they had been standing where you left them, is that not so? MR SANDLA What I said, when I awoke after having fallen unconscious, when I regained my consciousness, I saw Makumba and Pama lying on the floor with people exclaiming as to what a tragedy it was. MR NTONGA In what position were they lying? If you can remember? MR SANDLA Mr Makumba was lying skewed or across and Mr Pama was lying on his back like he was pointing out the chairs are like that - Pama that is - Pama is with the right hand and then Makumba is using the left hand, like that. Horizontal and vertical. MR NTONGA And apart from the two - you were asked this question by the Commission - apart from the two shots that you heard and the barrage that you notice after you have recovered that you were hit with three, can you tell us whether you heard any shooting away from you upon the first two and those that were directed at you? CHAIRPERSON Are you suggesting he said the first two shots were directed at him? MR NTONGA I'm saying apart from the two that you heard and those that had hit you, did you hear any shots being fired away from you? MR SANDLA No I did not hear any other shots. MR NTONGA That's all thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTONGA MR PRIOR I've no questions, thank you Mr Chairman. MR NODADA I have no re-examination Mr Chairman. ADV. GCABASHE The person in khaki who had the cap on and the khaki jacket, did you notice him carrying anything in his hands? MR SANDLA I saw a pistol appearing. MR LAX Sorry, we lost a bit of your translation there, would you just repeat that? MR SANDLA I saw the barrel of the pistol appearing. ADV. GCABASHE Would you recall if he fired any shots? MR SANDLA I do not know whether the two shots, first two shots were from him or not. ADV. GCABASHE Did you see the man who was carrying a newspaper - we have heard that there was a man carrying a newspaper - did you see this man at all? MR SANDLA No I did not see him. ADV. GCABASHE Thank you, no further questions. MR LAX Where exactly, if you can remember this, you've mentioned this khaki clad person, where was he in relation to where you were and where the other two were? MR SANDLA If I can demonstrate the two people were about this close and then the pillar about here, in the front here, the pillar of course and then myself behind the pillar and he at about the distance of this white ...[inaudible] fellow here. CHAIRPERSON What the witness indicated was that the other two people were about eight to ten paces away from him and that if he was facing them midway between them, or thereabouts, would have been the white pillar and the other person in khaki was to the left, some six to eight paces away from him and perhaps three paces away from the other two people. That is, when I say to the left, to the left from where the applicant was facing in the direction of the other two people. MR LAX Thank you. Just one other small issue and that is what happened to your firearm? MR SANDLA My gun - I later saw that my gun was inside - inside here. MR LAX You indicate in the front of your waist? MR SANDLA Under the belt of my - not in the holster any more, under my belt in the front. MR LAX So somebody must have picked it up and put it there for you? MR SANDLA I think at the time when I was unconscious someone may have picked it up and pushed it under my belt in front. MR LAX When policemen fire their weapons, you normally fill out a report to say how much ammunition you used, how much you were issued with and how much was left over. Did you do such a report and was there only that one shot that was fired? MR SANDLA No I did not make such a report. MR LAX Just as a matter of interest, why not, is that not normal practice to do that report? CHAIRPERSON He was in hospital for twenty eight days. MR LAX Of course. You were in hospital for quite a long time. When you came out did they not ask you to do such a thing or was it just left? MR SANDLA No, nobody asked me to make such a report. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR NTONGA That is all that I want to lead from the side of the victims. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Prior, do you have any evidence that you wish to lead at this stage? MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, no there's no evidence or no further evidence that I intend to lead. CHAIRPERSON Anything anybody wants to say? It has been agreed that the matter cannot reach a conclusion till we have heard those of the other applicants which come before us for a hearing. As has been stated before, the applicant has applied for amnesty in respect of twenty eight occurrences. It has been arranged and I trust it will continue, that the applicant will be kept down here for the rest of the week and that will enable his attorney to consult with him with a view to obtaining proper information about the twenty seven other matters which are subject to a hearing or either hearing or decision in Chambers but quite obviously we will require a great deal more information about them and I trust that the applicant's attorney will consult with Mr Prior as to the details required. Once those further particulars have been obtained the matter can be fully investigated and arrangements will then be made with the legal advisers of the applicant and the victims as to the date and venue of further hearings. It may be that the hearings will be held elsewhere and the victims taken to the scene rather than coming down here if there are no more public hearings arising out of events in this vicinity but that is a matter which will have to be arranged after consultation between the parties. Is there anything else any of the parties wish to raise for me to make a ruling on at this stage? MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, there's just one matter, possibly, any address or argument regarding this specific matter, that is the UNITRA incident, obviously we're not going to address or if the parties are not going to argue now, that argument may be in a form of written argument at some other stage. CHAIRPERSON Well there may be many other submissions that they wish to make after we have heard evidence in respect of other matters. It may be that some objection fall away, it may be that some become very much more important and I don't think it would be proper to ask parties to commit themselves to argument at this state and then find themselves in the embarrassing position later and saying I did submit that but I don't want to submit that any more. I would recommend that for their own benefit they would like to make notes of what has transpired to date to assist them but there will be a transcript made of the evidence led which will be available. A further matter which I think I should draw to the attention of the applicant's attorney and that is that we've received a further affidavit which has been affirmed to, to today and there was an annexure to it but the annexure is not in the form of an affidavit which is not being confirmed by anyone and whether any value can be attached to such a document is perhaps doubtful. I merely draw that to Mr Ntonga's attention at the present time. MR NTONGA I thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So we will now adjourn to a date and a venue to be fixed and I would thank the victims for their assistance here today, for what was quite obviously a harrowing experience of reliving the past. We will now adjourn. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS