amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-04-14 EAST LONDON https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54717&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/el/eln3a.htm (PART HEARD MATTER: BAHAI FAITH CENTRE (cont) MR PRIOR ...[inaudible] continue, could I ask the Committee to request the public that all cellphones be switched off. I know last week we had quite a few interruptions with cell phones. If that request could be made Mr Chairman, thank you . CHAIRPERSON If any of you have cell phones with you here, would you please switch them off. What matter are we going to hear now Mr Prior? MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, we're proceeding with the part-heard matter of Mr Mbambo and Ncamazana. The witness, Mrs Manenza is on the podium and ready to take the oath. CHAIRPERSON And the parties have already been identified so it's not necessary to do that again, they are the same as previous. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. MR LAX Just for the record, what are your full names please? MRS MANENZA My full names, I'm Pasiwe Maria Manenza. PASIWE MARIA MANENZA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR Mrs Manenza, is it correct that on the 13th of March 1994 you were at the Bahai Church in Mdantsane? MRS MANENZA That is correct. MR PRIOR Is it also correct that you witnessed the killing of the deceased people, Mr Anvari, Mr Rasavi and Doctor Buck Shandege. MRS MANENZA Yes, that is correct. MR PRIOR Mrs Manenza, will you tell the Committee in your own words what you witnessed there on that fateful day while you were at the church? Can you describe to the Committee what you witnessed there and what was said there, thank you. MRS MANENZA Should I start from the beginning? Should I start from the beginning and give the details from the beginning? MR PRIOR Yes, describe to the Committee what you witnessed while you were at the church, the events that led up to the killing of the three deceased. MRS MANENZA "Three men entered, we were singing. I was teaching the congregation songs. The white people were amongst us as we were black people mostly. When they arrived they grabbed them by the scuff of the neck, they told us to: "quiet quiet", we did so. They pulled them by their shirts individually and put the against the wall. They asked them to lift their hands up. There was a person standing by the door, he also entered and was put against the wall. They then said that Africans must stand one side and Boers on the other side. As they were putting them" ...[intervention] MR PRIOR Just slow down, sorry. MRS MANENZA "After they put them against the wall Rias was the first person who was searched. He was asked for a key, car keys. He threw it to them saying: Here is the key. After that I could not bear to look at what was happening" ...[intervention] MR PRIOR Sorry Mrs Manenza, were these people armed, these three that came into the church? MRS MANENZA Yes, they were armed. "I could not bear it anymore, I said to them: my children please listen to me, I was talking to those who are armed, I said that: these people are foreigners from Iran and Iraq. They looked at me, they obviously did not listen to me because they continued to shoot". That is what I saw. MR PRIOR Why did you tell the three gunmen that you saw in the church that these people were from Iran or Iraq? MRS MANENZA It is because of the language they spoke. It's because of what they said, that Africans on one side, Boers on the other side. That is why I said that they were foreigners. MR PRIOR Were you trying to bring any distinction to their minds? MRS MANENZA Yes, that is what I was trying to do because I knew that those people were foreigners, they were not South Africans. MR PRIOR And these gunmen, did they pay any - well, you said they just continued shooting, did they say anything in reaction to what you had said to them? MRS MANENZA They did not respond, two of them just looked at me. They did not answer. MR PRIOR Are you able to say how many of the gunmen actually shot there in the church, whether it was one, two or more or aren't you sure? MRS MANENZA I was so nervous that I could not see properly. Two people were armed, the other one had a can in his hand. MR PRIOR How did they treat the deceased? Did they treat them gently there, before they shot them? MRS MANENZA No, not at all because they were dragging them and they were also searching. They threw their documents on the floor as well. MR PRIOR Who threw their documents on the floor? Was that the deceased or the gunmen? MRS MANENZA The gunmen. They searched them, they found documents in their pockets, they threw them on the floor. MR PRIOR Did you notice whether any of the deceased were assaulted apart from being dragged or pulled by their clothes? MRS MANENZA No, I did not see anyone being beaten, they just pulled them and put them against the wall. MR PRIOR Did the deceased say anything to the gunmen, to the attackers? MRS MANENZA No, they did not say anything except that Rias said: "Here are the keys" when they were asking for the keys, that is all. MR PRIOR And the rest of the congregation, what was their reaction to what was happening there just before the shooting? MRS MANENZA When we realised that they were going to shoot we started praying, as they were being shot we were praying, even the deceased. We realised that they were chanting something together. MR PRIOR And what happened after the shooting, can you just tell us briefly what occurred? MRS MANENZA After that they walked backwards, running away. They also were hiding their faces so that we could not identify them. After they left we tried to get help. MR PRIOR How long had you been a member of that church? MRS MANENZA I started being a member from 1973. MR PRIOR How would you describe the Bahai church in that area, in respect of the community that it served? Can you maybe just tell the Committee how the community regarded the Bahai church in that area? MRS MANENZA I wouldn't really know how the community viewed the Bahai faith but what I know is that they believe in peace for the human beings. They don't discriminate according to race or colour. That is what I know about the Bahai faith. MR PRIOR We heard evidence that - I think a week before the shooting or two weeks before, there was quite a large gathering of Bahai members, in excess of about 80 or 90 - I could be corrected on that, but a large number of people were at the church. Do you know about that? MRS MANENZA I wouldn't know because I did not count the number of people, I was not expecting anything to happen but there was quite a few of us, they were mostly children than adults. It was during the bible school. MR PRIOR Mrs Manenza, I'm referring to - at least a week before the shooting, we heard evidence that there was a gathering at the same church and that there was at least 80 or more people there, were you part of that gathering? MRS MANENZA No, I was not present then. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman, that is the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR MS COLLETT Mr Chairman, I don't intend to cross-examine this witness. I have already cross-examined her in the trial Court and there's nothing further that I would ask her. The cross-examination of this witness at the trial Court extends page 106 to 114. Her evidence is essentially the same and I can see no meaningful purpose to simply ask her exactly the same questions again. I would ask that that be incorporated into the record insofar as it is necessary. CHAIRPERSON I think that's an extremely helpful attitude that you have adopted, and we will certainly incorporate it, thank you. MR MBANDAZAYO I have no questions of the witness. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO MS GCABASHE Thank you Chair. Mrs Manenza, can I just ask about the documents that these young men took from the deceased, do you know what documents these were? MRS MANENZA Yes, I do know, they were identity documents. Those were the documents I saw falling. MS GCABASHE Did you observe whether they read these documents at all? MRS MANENZA No, they did not do that. MS GCABASHE And then, are you saying these were ID documents as in the South African ID documents or a different form of ID document, do you know? MRS MANENZA I wouldn't know because I just saw a green cover. I don't know what was written inside the document. MS GCABASHE Thank you. Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, and we are grateful to you for having taken trouble to come here today to help us in our inquiries. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. May the witness be excused? CHAIRPERSON Certainly. WITNESS EXCUSED