amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-04-17 EAST LONDON 11 LUVUYO KULMAN, ZAMA THUTHA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54724&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/el/eln9.htm MR PRIOR Good morning. Mr Chairman, on the 17th of April 1998, the applications of Mr Kulman and Thutha proceeds, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Before we start today, I would draw Mr Botma's attention to the fact that this is not a trial, we are hearing the applicant's application for amnesty here, and the Committee has the right to limit cross-examination. We permitted you to cross-examine at great length yesterday, which I understand this is your first appearance at an application, and also because you had undoubtedly greater knowledge of the events than lawyers normally do, in that you appeared in the trial, but I would ask you today please remember, that this is not a trial, and to limit your cross-examination. MR BOTMA As you please Mr Chairman. LUVUYO KULMAN (still under oath) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOTMA (cont) Mr Kulman, at the time you took Donnie Meyers from the truck, do you know that Thandekulo was about to go to execute her or to kill her, did you know that at that stage? MR KULMAN No, I did not know. MR BOTHMA So what did you believe was he going to do with her? MR KULMAN As Thandekulo and I had already spoken that that was going to be our rendezvous, that was where I was going to give him our report, and I was going to hand over Meyers at that very place, I don't know what Thandekulo thought, I just carried out my part in the mission. CHAIRPERSON But you know that when you got there with her, he said something to the effect that she is useless, she was not the person you were to kidnap, what did you think he was going to do to her? MR KULMAN That was up to Thandekulo, I can't think for him. CHAIRPERSON You were asked to think for yourself, the question was what did you think he was going to do. MR KULMAN It could happen that he would kill her, I thought. MR BOTHMA And after the shots, you realised that he did in fact kill her? MR KULMAN Yes. MR BOTHMA And did you reconcile yourself with that, what he had done there? MR LAX Sorry, we have missed the whole interpretation until you said the word "part", I think the switch hadn't been put on, so if you can just please repeat. INTERPRETER Could the applicant then repeat the answer please? MR KULMAN Indirectly I was part of the operation, because I brought Donnie to the area. MR LAX Are you saying you did reconcile yourself with that? MR KULMAN Yes, as we were in a war, it was part and parcel of the war. We were taught not to feel ashamed of our actions. In war we are taught not to feel ashamed of our actions, it was part of the war. Somebody did pass away, I am also a human being, but there was no alternative. There was no alternative at the time. CHAIRPERSON Why do you say that? MR KULMAN Because there was no alternative, APLA waged war against the Boers, the oppressors. MR LAX You could have dropped her at a hospital, she didn't know you, she would never be able to identify you, you could have left her there? There was no need to kill her, she wasn't resisting you in any way. MR KULMAN As I already said, APLA recognised whites as oppressors. What happened was part of the war that APLA had waged. We did not have time to take her to the hospital. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying it was APLA policy to indiscriminately kill whites, whoever they might be? MR KULMAN It was the policy of APLA to kill white people who were oppressors. Every white person who were recognised as an oppressor, because they all benefitted from the crime, from the privileges that the whites got, that we as Africans, could not get. We then recognised her as having ... CHAIRPERSON As we told you yesterday, will you please answer the questions, and not make long speeches each time you are asked a question. Carry on. MR BOTHMA You would have killed Mike Meyers, even if he was not a member of the AWB is that correct? MR KULMAN That is correct. MR BOTHMA If you received instructions to kill Donnie, you would have killed her just because she was white, is that correct? MR KULMAN We were going to kill her not because she was white, but because she supported the system that we were fighting, not because she was merely white. It was not about her white skin, we were killing her because she was part of the system that we were fighting against. ADV GCABASHE Mr Kulman, you see, my problem with what you are saying now is, you told us yesterday that your specific instructions were to repossess and only to kill Mike Meyers if he resisted. You are now talking about killing them any way, can you just reconcile that for me so that I know exactly what you were doing, and in terms of which instructions you were acting? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, just before the applicant answers, I think the question was that in any way, even if he was not a member of AWB, he would have killed him, and he said yes. So, which means it was another leg, not necessarily with regard to an instruction, that even if he was instructed to kill him, even if he was not a member of AWB and also applies to the daughter. ADV GCABASHE With all due respect Mr Mbandazayo, that is an explanation I would like to hear from Mr Kulman himself, who is the person who got the orders, who knew exactly why he was doing what he did at that time, and I want to relate the same example, not only to Mr Meyers, but to Donnie as well, because as I understood the question relating to Donnie, she would have been killed, even if she had not resisted. I would just like him to reconcile the order which I understood to be if there is resistance, kill, but your objective is one, bring us the truck and whatever you find inside, and two bring us Mike Meyers, because we want to talk to that man. If I am wrong Mr Kulman, please, just help me understand exactly how you reconcile these two positions? MR KULMAN Could you elaborate on your question Ma'am, please? ADV GCABASHE What don't you understand? MR KULMAN You say that the statement that you have and what I am saying, do not correspond. ADV GCABASHE No, Boetie, there is no statement that I have. I am simply recalling what you said to us yesterday, and I will say this slowly and you correct me if I've got it wrong. Your order was to take the truck and get Mike Meyers to Thandekulo and only to kill him, if he resisted. I've got that right? MR KULMAN Correct. ADV GCABASHE What actually happened was that both Mike Meyers and Donnie were killed? Yes? MR KULMAN That is correct. ADV GCABASHE The question from the Advocate for the family as I understood it, was this, the first one was you would have killed Mike Meyers even if he was not a member of the AWB, in terms of your general APLA policy and your answer was yes? MR KULMAN That is correct, yes. ADV GCABASHE And then in relation to Donnie Meyers, you would have killed her, even if she had not resisted, again in relation to the general APLA policy and your answer again was yes, did I get that right? MR KULMAN Yes, that is so. ADV GCABASHE Now, all I am asking you to reconcile for me is the fact of the killing of these two people. Were you acting in terms of your order or in terms of APLA policy? You know, for me, I am now confused about why they were killed, was it because you were ordered to do so or because it fell broadly within APLA policy to kill them any way? Are you all right with my question? MR KULMAN Yes, I understand your question. The order that we got was to kidnap Mike, but it happened as we were going to kidnap Mike he moved a certain way, it is that movement that made me shoot at him. This is how my operation went. ADV GCABASHE Where does the APLA policy of killing whites because they are oppressors, come into this? Where does it fit into this if at all? MR KULMAN It does fit in because we were waging war against these people. To end up killing them, was forwarding the struggle. Instilling fears to this who were still alive that APLA was doing about their land, demanding their land. ADV GCABASHE I will leave it at that, thanks. MR BOTHMA You had no information that Donnie was a member of the AWB, is that correct? MR KULMAN No, I was never given any such information, but I do know that she was an oppressor. MR BOTHMA You had no information about her whatsoever, you didn't know her at all, you didn't even expect to find her there? None of your reconnaissance had anything to do with her? How can you say such a thing, you didn't know the person? MR KULMAN What are you asking about? MR BOTHMA You said she was an oppressor, but you didn't know her. You can maybe think she might be an oppressor, but to say she was an oppressor without knowing her, or anything about her, you can't make that conclusion, surely? MR KULMAN Every white person is an oppressor. MR LAX And therefore should be killed? MR KULMAN Correct. ADV GCABASHE But only when an order has been given, is this what you are saying? MR KULMAN That is correct. MR LAX So how do you explain in this case then, that you didn't have an order to do that in fact? You had no order to kill Donnie? MR KULMAN As I had already said, Donnie being killed happened accidentally because I was trying to shoot the father, unfortunately she got the bullet. CHAIRPERSON Are you now saying it was your bullet that killed her? MR KULMAN Yes, the bullet that got her on the left side of the face, that was my bullet. Whether it is that bullet that killed her, I don't know. CHAIRPERSON You have just said it was. Will you please think before you answer questions. MR KULMAN I quickly answered the question without it being explained, I actually thought you were asking if it was my bullet that got her. That is why I answered the question in such a manner. CHAIRPERSON You used the word killed, you said I killed Donnie accidentally. And then I asked you are you saying that it was your bullet that killed her, and you said yes. MR KULMAN This is why I said that I just answered quickly. MR BOTHMA The firearm, the 357 Magnum from Mike Meyers, what happened to that after Thandekulo came back, did he give it to you or to your co-accused? MR KULMAN It was given to my co-accused. MR BOTHMA Did you have any time to inspect this weapon? MR KULMAN No, we did not have the time. MR BOTHMA So why are you able to tell this Commission that the firearm being shown to you, is not in fact the firearm that was possessed or taken from Mike Meyers on that day? MR KULMAN I know the gun because after Thandekulo searched the truck, he showed me the gun. He told me that he has found the gun, and I saw how the gun was. MR BOTHMA You never inspected the gun, that was the question? CHAIRPERSON In fairness to the witness, the question was as I understood it, after the gun had been given to his co-accused that he said he had no chance to inspect it. MR BOTHMA As you please Mr Chairman. I just put it for record purposes, that this was in fact the firearm that Mike Meyers had in his possession on that day, and in the same condition as was shown to you yesterday. ADV GCABASHE Just to finish off this area, this aspect of questioning. You mentioned yesterday that your co-accused dropped his shotgun when he was given this particular firearm, what did you mean by that? You used the word dropped. MR KULMAN Did I mention this yesterday, about him dropping the gun. Please show me. ADV GCABASHE Yes, you did. I was looking at my notes last night, and I know you did. CHAIRPERSON My recollection is that he corrected himself almost immediately. ADV GCABASHE What I have here is Zama was armed with a home made firearm, when we got the .38, Mike Meyers', he dropped his home made and I had a question here, what did you mean by drop and I don't want to leave it till later, I would rather we finish it off, but if that is not what you meant, please just explain and say whatever. Just give us the correct position. He dropped his home made, so I just wanted an explanation, what happened to that home made essentially, what do you mean by dropped? MR KULMAN After my co-accused had been given the .38, the home made weapon was in the car. I don't think I stated it the way you have written it in your notes. ADV GCABASHE So you are saying it was in the truck, the home made was in the truck, is that what you are saying now? MR KULMAN Yes. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. MR BOTHMA Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHMA . CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman, I have a few questions. As a soldier of APLA, you indicated that you had received military training within and outside the country, is that correct? MR KULMAN Yes, that is correct. MR PRIOR In the last three weeks we have heard of the 15 rules or aspects or the code of conduct that APLA soldiers have to adhere to, are you familiar with those 15 rules? MR KULMAN The 15 points of attention? MR PRIOR Yes? MR KULMAN I did go through them, but now I have forgotten. MR PRIOR Yes, you held those 15 points of attention, those were very important to APLA soldiers, is that correct? MR KULMAN Correct. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, I am referring to the bundle that was used in the King William's Town matter, Mr Xundu and others at page 61 of that bundle, that was headed the Aristocratic Democratic Rules of APLA 15. I am going to refer you to rule 14 which states do not ill-treat captives or anyone in your charge. Are you familiar or were you familiar with that rule? MR KULMAN Yes. MR PRIOR And was Donnie Meyers not a captive at the stage when you drove away with her in the truck? Was she or wasn't she, yes or no? The question doesn't require a long statement. MR KULMAN Yes, she was a captive. MR PRIOR Thank you. I want to refer the Commission to page 20 of the bundle, it is a statement made by Zwelibanzi Makhasi. If time permits Mr Makhasi will either testify today or at a later stage. I need to put this to you in fairness to you for your comment? MR LAX Sorry, this is Bundle B Mr Prior? MR PRIOR I beg the Committee's pardon, it is Bundle B. I want just to read from the second paragraph for your comment. Mr Makhasi says that on the 27th of August 1993, at about 2 pm he was at the Tseleni Brickyard building a water tank stand, when he saw a white truck driving on a gravel road from the direction of Umtata towards Nqobo. He identified the truck as the one he used to see being driven by a white man. The truck stopped on the road, about a kilometre away from him, he did not see anyone alighting from the truck. The place where the truck stopped, was near a natural forest. After the truck had stopped, he heard three gunshots coming from the direction of the forest. He thought the white man was hunting. Do you understand what I have read out to you, do you follow what I have read out to you? MR KULMAN Yes. MR PRIOR Now, it would seem from Mr Makhasi's report, he did not see any bakkie. The bakkie that you told us yesterday about, belonging to Thandekulo, stopping near that forest, near that truck. Can you comment, do you want to comment? MR KULMAN If he didn't see it, it is not my fault. I couldn't show him. I don't know why he didn't see it. MR PRIOR I am going to suggest to you that Thandekulo was not there. MR KULMAN You are saying that because you were not there either. MR PRIOR Mr Pangele, the Detective from Murder and Robbery Squad, gave evidence at your trial. Do you remember Mr Pangele, Mr Fanelo Pangele? MR KULMAN There were a lot of Police there, I can't remember which one he was. I can't say I remember him. MR PRIOR All right. He told the Court and I want also your comment on this, he said he went to the, well, he spoke to the man at the Brickyard, that is Mr Makhasi, and he looked around the area and saw drag marks. The spoor led him to the body of Donnie in a bush or near a bush. Also in the same vicinity papers were scattered around, and there had, to his mind, there were signs of a struggle. Do you remember anyone giving that evidence at your trial? MR KULMAN Maybe I have forgotten, there were Police testifying there, I did not really take much cognisance of what they were saying. MR PRIOR I am going to suggest to you that if his account is correct, that there were drag marks which led up to the body, then it would seem that your evidence that you carried Donna, and carried her over a fence, is not true? MR KULMAN If you asked me a question, please repeat it. I don't know whether you are stating that or if you are asking me a question. MR PRIOR Do you agree with that? MR KULMAN Please repeat yourself. MR PRIOR Do you agree that there were struggle and drag marks from the truck to where Donnae was eventually found? CHAIRPERSON Are you quoting from the evidence at the trial? MR PRIOR Yes. The reported evidence Mr Chairman. MR KULMAN When you say struggling, what exactly are you saying? Please explain to me. MR PRIOR Do you disagree that Donnae was struggling from the time that she got out of the truck to the time that she was killed in the forest? MR KULMAN I can't remember what she was doing, but I know was carrying her. CHAIRPERSON You have told us that you and your co-accused put her down and left her there? MR KULMAN Yes. CHAIRPERSON Was that in the position and the place shown in photograph 7? MR KULMAN I can't remember the area, it could happen that we left her exactly there. CHAIRPERSON Is that, was she laying like that as you left her? MR KULMAN I can't remember the position she was laying. MR PRIOR And if you look at photograph 9, is that your co-accused as you have referred to him, Mr Thutha near the body, pointing to her? MR KULMAN Yes. MR PRIOR Please look at photograph 3. Can you tell us how her blouse became disturbed? It seems that her blouse was moved upwards, exposing part of her breast? MR KULMAN I wouldn't know. MR PRIOR Can you explain how her jersey is removed and laying under or near her head? MR KULMAN I wouldn't know, I wouldn't know how to explain, I don't know. MR PRIOR In the position and condition you took her, and carried her as you have explained, she was unconscious and was not in a position to move any article of her own clothing, is that right? MR KULMAN Yes, that is correct. MR PRIOR Would you agree in the condition that you left her, there was no need as far as you could see, to stab her as you say Thandekulo had done? MR KULMAN We left her there. The last person who was with her, was Thandekulo. This is why I can't remember the matters about the jersey and all. MR PRIOR There is two last aspects ... CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Prior, can you just tell me, I don't want to waste time with the witness. Will someone be giving evidence about the finding the body? MR PRIOR Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Because the clothing in photograph 1 and 2 is very different from the other. Will they explain that? MR PRIOR There will be evidence yes, there is a perfectly satisfactory explanation. Thank you Mr Chairman. There are only two final aspects. You said when you drove off with the truck, you looked in the cubby hole, that was the cubby hole to which you thought Mr Meyers was going to take out a firearm, and you found there was nothing, no weapon in that cubby hole, is that right? MR KULMAN I searched at the car the second time. I don't know where Thandekulo got the weapon. It could happen that ... MR PRIOR Please, when you drove off, you were in the passenger seat, you were opposite the cubby hole. I understood you to tell us that during that trip you looked in the cubby hole. MR KULMAN I did not say that. Please don't confuse me, I did not say that. MR PRIOR You said you looked and you found there was no weapon there? MR KULMAN Please sir, don't confuse me. I did not say that. ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Prior, I think I specifically asked him about this yesterday, as to whether he had checked in the cubby hole if there was anything, the firearm for example, and his reply was that they didn't check at all. The firearm was found by Thandekulo, he does not know where he found it from, which part of the truck he found the firearm from. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Sandi. ADV SANDI And then later he went to check, he didn't find anything. MR PRIOR At that level, I find it strange that you are seated next to the cubby hole, and would not simply have opened it, given your evidence that Mr Meyers was going for a firearm there? MR KULMAN I did not have such presence of mind at the time, because things were happening quickly. I did not think at the time that I must check the cubby hole. CHAIRPERSON But you had just shot somebody because you thought a man was reaching for a gun in that cubby hole, now you were sitting in the vehicle, when you travelled 40 to 50 kilometres, and yet no never looked to see if the gun was in the cubby hole, something that will be very useful to the Army? Can you explain why not? MR KULMAN I did not check because my mind was already at the destination. I didn't have a chance to do this. I knew that we were going to search the car any way, we were not going to just leave it like that. I did not do that, I was not able to do that whilst the car was on the road. CHAIRPERSON You say you were not able to do it, when you were sitting immediately behind the cubby hole? I am afraid I don't understand that answer. MR KULMAN I don't know how to explain to you because this whole matter happened quickly. For me to check the cubby hole, it did not come to my mind. CHAIRPERSON It did not happen quickly to drive in this truck for 40 or 50 kilometres, did it? It must have taken quite a long time? The question is why didn't you look in the cubby hole when you were driving from the scene where a man had tried to grab a gun from it, all the way to Mbashi? MR KULMAN Because I did not think of that. I can't say I did think of it, when I didn't. MR PRIOR Let's see in that context, I would suggest to you that that makes a mockery of your suggestion that you thought there was a firearm in there, and that he was reaching for it. That was the original reason you gave why you shot any way in the first place. If you didn't think there was a firearm in there, then you wouldn't have looked in there, and that can be the only explanation why you didn't bother to look during the period of time that you drove from where the first shooting took place to Mbashi. MR KULMAN Please repeat that. MR PRIOR Okay, I will try and repeat it a little bit less complicated. We have already the fact that you drove 40 to 50 kilometres from the place where this incident first happened, to the place where you were going to rendezvous with Thandekulo, are you with me? MR KULMAN Yes. MR PRIOR In a three ton truck, on a gravel road, you wouldn't have driven very fast, it would have taken you quite some time to drive from point A to point B. Do you understand, are you with me? MR KULMAN I don't understand when you say it was going to take time, what time? MR PRIOR I am not going to waste my time with this nonsense. Mr Chairman, I have two brief aspects, I just want to put to the witness. According to the indictment there was R2 018-92 which was recovered from your co-accused, Mr Thutha in his possession. Do you agree with that amount or are you unable to comment? MR KULMAN I can't comment about it because I was being searched by the Police on one side, and he on the other side. I can't comment on that. MR PRIOR Is there any reason why you didn't hand over the money when you saw Thandekulo there in the forest, him being the Administrator of your Organisation or Regiment, Group? MR KULMAN We had not gotten to that destination where we were going to surrender everything. MR PRIOR All right, thank you, and finally in respect of your evidence, your initial evidence yesterday that the reason why you initially didn't want to plead, and then changed your plea, was to protect APLA and the Transkei. I just need to put to you that it had appeared in the Heidelberg matter, Mr Chairman, that in January 1994 Gen Holomisa, had issues summons against the Minister of Police, of Law and Order for allegations made by Colonel Snyman after the Heidelberg attack that Holomisa was harbouring APLA bases in the Transkei, and that - if the Committee will recall, if Mr Chairman will recall, that was made, there was quite a large issue made during the Sibaya incident, which was investigated at length or extensively canvassed at that hearing. What I want to put to this witness is that as of July 1994, when your trial started, already there was tremendous publicity given to the fact that APLA had bases in the Transkei. Do you accept that position that there was publicity, there was press reports, there were legal action taken by General Holomisa against the then Minister of Law and Order? MR KULMAN That APLA was in the Transkei? MR PRIOR Yes, it wasn't a secret at that stage, as of January 1994 and therefore there would have been no reason for you to want to keep it a secret in July of 1994? MR KULMAN APLA did have bases in the Transkei, however people could not identify the locations. They did not know where these bases were. MR PRIOR Thank you, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR . CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Kulman, when you made your application in chief, was there anybody assisting you in making your application, explaining to you the requirements and what you have to put and what you don't have to put in your application? MR KULMAN I made the application myself. ADV GCABASHE Both applications, both? MR KULMAN Correct. I only got my representative's assistance whilst writing my affidavit. ADV SANDI Mr Kulman, how did you get to know that there was this opportunity to apply for amnesty, how did it come to you? MR KULMAN It was on TV and at the time, everybody knew about the existence of the TRC, that they wanted people who wanted to apply for amnesty and to reveal what they were involved in. ADV SANDI I take it that you got the amnesty application forms from the prison authorities, is that correct? MR KULMAN Yes, that is correct. MR LAX We have heard evidence that PAC members, high ranking PAC people, APLA Commanders went around to the prisons to encourage their people to apply for amnesty. In some cases lawyers went around as well, helping them. Did you not meet any of these people, or did they not come to your prison? MR KULMAN Letlapa got to me, however I had processed my application form already. I had finished everything concerning the filling of my TRC form. CHAIRPERSON Which form, the first or the second one? MR KULMAN Both. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. When you were making your affidavit, did you become aware now of the requirements of the TRC regarding your application? MR KULMAN Please repeat your question. MR MBANDAZAYO Before you appeared before this Committee, you made an affidavit. Now, my question is, did you become aware now of the requirements for applying for amnesty? MR KULMAN I only knew when my representative told me what was important in the affidavit, but prior to that, I did not know. It is only when I was going to write my affidavit that I knew. MR MBANDAZAYO Let me finally ask you about this incident. Is it your evidence that you shot Donnie Meyers where you robbed the truck, where you left Mr Meyers? MR KULMAN Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO Is it also your evidence that when you reached Mbashi, you met Thandekulo and he is the person who again shot Donnie Meyers? MR KULMAN Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO Is it also your evidence that the reason why you can't remember what happened in your trial, is because you did not want to participate in the trial? You didn't care what will happen to you, because you did not recognise the system there, that is the judicial system? MR KULMAN That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO That is all Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO . CHAIRPERSON But you have told us that you consulted with high ranking persons before you changed your plea, hadn't you? MR KULMAN Please remind me sir. CHAIRPERSON I thought you had said that you consulted with high ranking people, it was in that extract of the record that was given to you and read? That you and your co-accused had consulted with higher authority and that was one of the reasons why you were now changing your plea? MR KULMAN Yes. CHAIRPERSON Right, thank you. ADV GCABASHE Thank you Chair. Mr Kulman, if you can just help me in relation to the planning of this operation as you know, Thandekulo cannot be here to explain anything at all, and we have to rely on what you know of this matter. You reconnoitred this mission you have told us? Yes? MR KULMAN Yes. ADV GCABASHE Over what period of time before the incident? MR KULMAN The reconnaissance? ADV GCABASHE Yes? MR KULMAN I can't remember clearly. ADV GCABASHE But you would estimate a week, I heard you say "iveki", one week before the incident? MR LAX Sorry, he said two weeks actually, previously? MR KULMAN It could happen, I can't remember clearly because this happened in 1993. ADV GCABASHE The important point that I just need to establish is, it was just before the incident, in the week or two weeks just before the incident, is this right? MR KULMAN Yes, it could happen that it is a week or two, I can't be exactly sure how long it took, between a week or two. ADV GCABASHE Now, did you establish that Mike Meyers used regular routes in that one week or two weeks before the incident? MR KULMAN There is a road in the Transkei from Elliot, that is the road that he used, then he would come to Nqobo. It is a pity I don't know Transkei very well, I don't know the areas within the Transkei well. ADV GCABASHE Are you saying that you found out that he uses one road all of the time, is this what you are saying? MR KULMAN Yes. ADV GCABASHE Now two days, Wednesday before the Friday, did you see him delivering milk? Wednesday, Thursday did you see him delivering milk as you were investigating and reconnoitring and checking out? MR KULMAN I can't remember, but what he would do is this. He would not come every day, he would come on specific times. I can't remember whether I did see him on the Wednesday, this happened a long time ago. ADV GCABASHE You see the reason I ask, there are actually two reasons I ask, one is how did you know that on that specific day he would be in the area, and at that particular village at that particular time? Can you just explain this? And - yes, let me leave it at that. MR KULMAN He would come and not come sometimes, however he would not spend a lot of time not having come. I did the reconnaissance and I saw which times he came. On the time that he did come, we had planned, that we were going to execute the operation. ADV GCABASHE This is precisely what I don't quite understand. How did you know that on that Friday he would be at that particular spot at that particular village? Just take us through your morning? MR KULMAN When he goes into the village, there was a siren that he would use. We had already concluded that as he goes into the village, we would start with the operation. We would hear the siren when he goes into the village. ADV GCABASHE Yes, I understand that, but that is if you lived in the village. You came from Umtata in Thandekulo's vehicle. By the time you arrived, the truck was there already. This is what I am trying to understand. How did you know the truck would be there on that day, because you only arrived after the truck had parked, as I understood your evidence. If I am wrong, please correct me? MR KULMAN We used that route as well, the route that he used, because there were other comrades with bases there. We used that route every day in the morning and in the evening. Sometimes we would have stuff to deliver in Umtata, sometimes in Nqobo, that was our normal road that we used each day. ADV GCABASHE I really must, even if it is the only thing you clarify for me, I would stay with this one issue. This incident happened in the afternoon. You arrived after the truck had arrived. You still have not explained to me how you knew the truck would be there at that time, because you told your comrade, Thandekulo that the target is ready, I read that somewhere. Thandekulo took you over on, I am sure I had a note somewhere where you said the target is ready, you can be taken there, and this is what I needed to reconcile, how did you know the target would be there? If you just clear that one up for me, in the afternoon of Friday, where did you see him earlier, how did you know that at about whatever time in the afternoon, he would be at this particular village, that is all I want you to clear for me. MR KULMAN Everything depended on Thandekulo. We also depended on him. How he concluded that, he could answer that question. I don't know how he came to that conclusion, it would be difficult for me to answer that. ADV GCABASHE Now, the other question relating to your reconnoitring, the checking things out, had you noticed that Donnie had accompanied her father on Wednesday and Thursday, had you seen her in the truck as you were checking things out? MR KULMAN Perhaps is it my not taking note of things, because every time I saw him, he was on his own. I don't want to confirm and say that. ADV GCABASHE And did you know that he had injured his left foot so he was not able to walk properly? MR KULMAN No, I didn't know. ADV GCABASHE You hadn't noticed this when you were investigating this thing before Friday? MR KULMAN Who was injured, Donnie? ADV GCABASHE The father, Mike Meyers. MR KULMAN No, I did not take note of that. Another thing is that I can't remember things clearly. I also didn't know that I would be asked each detail and come here. I did not commit to memory each and every thing that I was doing. ADV GCABASHE Then finally again on the planning, what was the plan in relation to Mike Meyers, you were going to kidnap him and put him where in the truck, I mean what exactly was the plan, this was just the planning, what did you discuss? What were you going to do with this man once you got him? MR KULMAN The order that I was given was to kidnap him. Then I was going to surrender him to Thandekulo. Further orders would then follow from there. CHAIRPERSON But how were you going to take him? MR KULMAN I was going to point him with a gun. Like (indistinct) was going to drive, we were going to get to Mbashi and then we were going to get further orders from there. ADV GCABASHE As part of the planning, did you have tape to tie his mouth or a rope to tie his hands, that planning that I am asking about, because Thandekulo is not here to take us through the planning, but you are fortunately. MR KULMAN We had, are you asking if we had something to put into his mouth so that he does not make a noise? ADV GCABASHE I am asking if you had anything in terms of tying him up physically as you transported him? MR KULMAN Obviously there would be something there to use so that he doesn't make a noise, however, that depended on Thandekulo. Thandekulo knew what he was going to do. ADV GCABASHE Maybe you misunderstand me. I am talking about as you approached the vehicle, you had planned and according to that plan, and I am just speculating here please, you might have had rope to tie Meyers, you might have had tape to close his mouth. I am just speculating. These are just items I am thinking of. What was the plan, how were you going to keep him quiet between the village and the (indistinct) MR KULMAN He was going to keep quiet because we had guns, we were armed. We were just going to tell him as we were pointing the gun, he must keep quiet. He was going to keep quiet. ADV GCABASHE Thank you Chair, thank you. ADV SANDI Just one question Mr Kulman concerning Donnie. You did not know the political affiliation of Donnie, but you believed that her father was a member of the AWB. Now, from what you have told us, would it be correct to infer from your evidence that perhaps the reason why Donnie was killed, was because you believed that her father was a member of the AWB? Would it be fair for you to make that inference? MR KULMAN The reason for Donnie being killed, is that what you want? ADV SANDI Yes. MR KULMAN I am going to repeat this. First of all everybody knows that APLA waged war against the oppressors, and we recognised the oppressors as being Boers. Donnie and the father, as APLA cadres, we see no difference. You can't differentiate between a big snake and a small snake, they are both poisonous. ADV SANDI Thank you, you have answered me. CHAIRPERSON But you can differentiate between a poisonous and a non-poisonous snake, can't you? MR KULMAN It is a snake, whether it is poisonous Mamba, these are all snakes, you call them snakes. MR LAX What threat does a non-poisonous snake hold for you? It is not customary just to kill snakes, every single snake you see? MR KULMAN I am defining, I am making an analogy that a big snake and a small snake, to me, those are the same things. MR LAX Yes, but we are correcting your analogy by pointing out that there are dangerous snakes and harmless snakes. A small, harmless snake is the same as a big harmless snake. It wasn't APLA policy to kill everybody, we have heard from your Commanders. It was APLA policy to kill oppressors. It was APLA policy to kill people who in some way were associated with the repressive apartheid regime. MR KULMAN Who are then the oppressors? MR LAX Comrade, you know very well who the oppressors are, you had lots of political education. Let's not mess around here. MR KULMAN This is why I don't see a difference between a big snake and a small snake, because to me they are the same. The apartheid system would not exist if it was not supported by the Boers. It was able to exist and resist for such a long time because the people encouraged the apartheid system. MR LAX Now, yesterday in your evidence you told us two different things about how Donnie was in the vehicle. I want you just to try and explain this for us. When you first gave your evidence, you told us that after you had shot her, she was laying down in the vehicle. Do you remember you told us that? MR KULMAN Who was laying on the floor of the car? MR LAX Who did you shoot that would have been laying down on the car, just answer my question. MR KULMAN This is what happened. I shot Donnie, I don't remember saying that immediately after I had gotten her, she was laying on the floor of the car, but I do remember that I said that when we were on the way, she was then laying on the floor of the car. MR LAX You did say that, that is quite correct, but you also said later on in the day, that on the way she was in fact sitting next to you with her head on the dashboard and that is how she was on the way. Please explain these two different ways for us. MR KULMAN Are you saying that I said that her head was on the dashboard? MR LAX You said she fell forward in a sitting position with her head against the dashboard, and she stayed like that until you got to Mbashi, sitting next to you. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I don't remember even in my notes about that, maybe the Committee can help me. MR LAX It is okay, the record will speak for itself, I don't need to canvass it too far. I am quite happy, if I had made a mistake, I am sorry, I am quite happy to withdraw it. The record will speak for itself. I could well be wrong. When did you give the money to Mr Thutha? MR KULMAN Given by me? MR LAX You took the money out of the safe, you opened the safe, you saw the money there, you took it out, that was your evidence? MR KULMAN What was revealed here yesterday, you said, you asked what other things were in the car, I then said to you between the passenger seat and the driver seat was a safe. MR LAX Yes, and you told us how you opened it and looked inside and took the money out. Now, how did the money get from Mr Thutha from you, because you also told us that you went to comrade Mandla and you said I've got all this money and he said don't give it to me now, give it to me later when we reach our other rendezvous, when we get back to base in fact, was what he said, you told us he said. At what point did you give the money to Mr Thutha? MR KULMAN Could Adv Gcabashe help me if she's got that on her notes perhaps, I don't remember having said that. MR LAX Well, it doesn't make any difference. Where do you say he got the money from? You don't agree with me, you don't remember saying that, where do you say he got the money from? MR KULMAN I can't answer because ... INTERPRETER The interpreter thinks that the witness said he could not understand the question. ADV GCABASHE No, Mr Kulman, just answer the question that you are being asked now and leave, proceed and answer this question. If we need to go back to the other one, should we find the notes, we will come back to it. In the meantime, let's proceed, answer this particular question. MR LAX Do you understand what I am asking you now? I will repeat it again. Where did Mr Thutha get the money from? MR KULMAN I don't know where he got it from. MR LAX Well, let me ... CHAIRPERSON You went to search the vehicle for anything that might be useful to the Army, is that not so? MR KULMAN Yes, correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you see the money? MR KULMAN Perhaps I did see it, I can't remember clearly. CHAIRPERSON And when you left, you were the passenger, you co-accused was driving. MR KULMAN That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So he couldn't have taken any money then, while he was driving the vehicle? MR KULMAN I don't know about that. MR LAX You see you were sitting next to the man, you were both in the truck, you now leave from Mbashi, you are heading on your way back, correct? MR KULMAN From Mbashi back to where we were? MR LAX To back to wherever you were heading. Where were you going from Mbashi once you left Mbashi, after Donnie had been shot and after Thandekulo had driven off, where were you going? MR KULMAN We were going towards Idutywa. MR LAX Correct. And you were the passenger and Mr Thutha was driving? MR KULMAN Yes. MR LAX Where was the money, was it still in the safe at this stage? MR KULMAN It could happen that it was in the safe. ADV GCABASHE No, if you don't mind, my note, we came back at 11.50 yesterday, just before twelve o'clock and my note here is, we found the money at Mbashi in the truck safe, between the driver seat and the passenger seat. This is where he kept the money, the trunk was welded, you think the trunk was welded into the car. Thandekulo said we would account for the money when we got to the destination. I am not saying this is totally accurate, but I think it is just about what you said. These are my notes, so you found the money at Mbashi. MR LAX That was my precise recollection and I have a similar note. MR KULMAN It could be that it is so. MR LAX That is what you told us. CHAIRPERSON You told us yesterday that in the van you found a pistol and some money. You didn't find the pistol, your leader found the pistol and you found some money. MR KULMAN It could be so. CHAIRPERSON And that you didn't get to count the money. That is what you told us yesterday. MR KULMAN Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now you say you don't know anything about the money? MR KULMAN The Commission must remember that I have a problem of memory lapse, I am not pretending. Empathise with me, I can't help it. I can't even recall what happened yesterday, I can't remember exactly what happened yesterday. I do remember that I was here, but I can't remember each and every detail that I answered. MR LAX It is okay, let's just leave it I think. So you don't know how Mr Thutha got the money then? MR KULMAN I can't explain that, but he is here, I am sure he would say. MR LAX Now, what did you do while you were driving from Mbashi on the way to Idutywa? MR KULMAN Just before we got to Idutywa, the traffic cops stopped us, that is when we got arrested. MR LAX And you didn't give the money to Mr Thutha in that time between the time you left Mbashi to the time you got arrested? MR KULMAN I don't remember. MR LAX Well, that is fine. ADV GCABASHE Just on this money thing. You were the Commander, I mean you were the senior person in the car, why would Mr Thutha have the money, you were in charge as I understand it? MR KULMAN I can't answer that, but there is nothing wrong with him taking the money, because anything could have happened, the money could have helped us under emergency. Perhaps I could have escaped and maybe we could have gotten a chance or something could have happened that would demand the money, or that we could use the money for. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR LAX Have you finished Mr Mbandazayo, nothing else you want to raise with him, arising out of our ... MR MBANDAZAYO No Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO . MR KULMAN Can I ask for a moment? MR LAX Go ahead. MR KULMAN I have a question to ask the Committee. Madasi was here testifying, he asked when the Commission is going to consider releasing APLA members. APLA depended on PAC, it is an affiliation of PAC. Is it the PAC that does not cooperate with the Commission? As Luvuyo Kulman, there is no such. It is probably the TRC that does not cooperate with the PAC, not the other way around. Perhaps the person who explained to Madasi, could explain to me too, I didn't understand. The TRC has done a lot so far, however when it deals with APLA cases, they take a long time to respond or to grant amnesty. CHAIRPERSON We are not here to listen to a political speech from you, if you want to hear about the matter, discuss it with your Attorney, who is fully aware of the position. You may now go back to your seat. WITNESS EXCUSED . MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I don't know at what time do we take tea time? CHAIRPERSON A bit later. MR MBANDAZAYO A bit later on, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON If anybody wants to make representations, I thought we should adjourn at about eleven o'clock, and if we are going to sit later in the afternoon, we will take an adjournment in the afternoon as well. Does that suit you? MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. ZAMA THUTHA (sworn states) MR LAX Please be seated. Can you hear us properly on the microphone? Sorry, just speak up so that we can just test that your voice is going to be recorded properly. Just say yes. MR THUTHA Yes. MR LAX If you could maybe come a little closer, pull your seat in. Let him pull his seat in. That is much better, thank you. Can you hear him in the witness box, the translation box? INTERPRETER Yes, thank you. EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Thutha, do you confirm that the affidavit before the Committee was made by yourself and you abide by it? MR THUTHA I would like to see it first. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I am trying to explain to him that there is a difference, he is talking about the actual application which is before the Court, and this is the affidavit you made and you signed yesterday before the Commissioner of Oath, the same information you gave me regarding your application? MR THUTHA Yes, this is my affidavit. MR MBANDAZAYO Do you abide by its contents? MR THUTHA Yes. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, just to ensure that we do not encounter problems on the way. Mr Thutha was that affidavit read to you before you signed it? MR THUTHA I don't remember. I don't know whether it was read to me or not, I don't remember. CHAIRPERSON Have you read it now? MR THUTHA No, I didn't read it. MR LAX Can I make a suggestion? Mr Mbandazayo, I think you better read him this affidavit and the other one, and let's take a short adjournment and come back when you have done that, because it wouldn't be fair to him if he can't remember it and we are going to question him on that. I think you should just take a bit of time and go through it. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman, I think it will be better for me to do that again Mr Chairman. I did it yesterday Mr Chairman, before he signed, but I will do that Mr Chairman. MR LAX Will you just indicate to us when you are ready, we will just take a short adjournment in the meantime? MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. COMMISSION ADJOURNS MR PRIOR The matter, the other matter that was on the role but obviously we will never get to it for the reasons stated earlier on in the week, Mr Ntonga appears for Bobby Tsala and one Seyo, Mr Seyo, may this application be adjourned until the 5th of May to East London, to the same venue? It is a Tuesday. MR NTONGA I confirm the arrangement Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Very well, this matter is adjourned and I make it clear that this Committee is not seized at the present time, but it is adjourned till the 5th of May here in East London. MR PRIOR I am indebted to the Committee, thank you Mr Chair. May we then proceed with the matter at hand? ZAMA THUTHA (still under oath) CHAIRPERSON Perhaps we can try again. EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO (cont) Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Thutha, you see the affidavit before yourself which is also before the Committee. Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents? MR THUTHA That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Thutha, I will take you through certain portions of the affidavit of Luvuyo Kenneth Kulman, which you in your affidavit indicated, that it must be incorporated in yours regarding this incident. Can you tell the Committee at which stage did you become aware that you are going to go and take the truck of Donnie Meyers and also kidnap him? MR LAX Sorry it is Mike Meyers, Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman, that is the truck of Mike Meyers. MR THUTHA The morning of the 27th of August. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committee, just take the Committee through the steps, what happened in that morning? MR THUTHA Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO Continue. MR THUTHA That morning Thandekulo arrived and told me that that day I am going to meet Maxwell Mneya, I would get all the information from him. He said that I was going to go somewhere with him. I did go to Maxwell Mneya where he was and he told us where we were going to go. He told me where we were going to go and then at about half past seven, Thandekulo came in a car, picked us up. We used the Umtata road to Nqobo. There was a branch or off ramp to Sibekhi on the way, on the left hand side, towards Nqobo. Next to that turn off going towards Sibekhi Police station, we were at (indistinct) on the way to Sibekhi. We saw the truck, it was parked. Before we got to the truck, we drove passed a bridge, a sort of bridge, that is where we parked the car. You can't see the car from where the truck was parked, one couldn't see the car. From the place where we parked the car, next to the road, you could not see the truck. Now, if you had moved from where the car was parked and you stand on the road, you could see the truck. Can I proceed? My co-accused, Maxwell Mneya and I went towards the truck, we left Thandekulo behind. However, on the way next to the road, Thandekulo was following us, but he was not with us. When we got to the truck, my co-accused told me that I must stand behind the truck and watch people who were selling and he was going to take over the front. He said that I must be alert as to what was happening around. Whilst I was behind the truck, I kept on peeping also around the passenger side where my co-accused was. After a short while I heard a bang. When I looked on the left side, where my co-accused was meant to be standing, I couldn't see him. I then went around the truck on the right side. When I got there, I could see the white man getting out. I then ... MR LAX Sorry, can you just slow down a little bit. I think you are going very, very fast please, it is difficult for the translators to keep up with you. We are not trying to cut you short, it is just very hard for them to translate when you are going so fast, thank you. And it is also hard for us, we are writing notes, to keep up. MR THUTHA The gun that I was carrying, I had put it in a sack of potatoes, where people could not see it, the rifle, home made rifle. Can I carry on? After that, after I had heard the noise, I could not differentiate whether it was my co-accused being shot or who it was. However, when I looked on the left side, I could not see my co-accused. I then went towards the right side of the truck. I saw Mike Meyers getting out of the truck. His right hand side was behind him as he was getting out, as if he was trying to do something in the truck. I then thought that he was preparing himself to shoot me, because I could not see my co-accused, I thought it was my co-accused who had been shot. I then shot him. He fell on the ground, stumbled and fell on the ground. I went to him immediately and I noticed that he didn't have a gun with him. I went back to the truck. When I got to the truck, my co-accused was inside the truck. There was then the second white person, then I could not say what she was. I just saw a person. What I did is I looked underneath the driver's seat to see if there was anything. I also looked at the front, I could see that there was nothing. MR LAX Sorry, what were you looking for. You said to see if there was anything, what exactly were you looking for? MR THUTHA I was looking for a gun or any weapon, or anything that would be dangerous. MR LAX Please carry on. MR THUTHA On the left side there was a bag of tools, a bag of car tools. I did not check properly, but I just looked and perused the tools. I then started the truck and drove. My co-accused had put this white person on the floor so that people could not see her. ADV GCABASHE Sorry, can I just interrupt there, what did your co-accused do, could you just repeat that? CHAIRPERSON Put the white person on the floor. ADV GCABASHE Could you just repeat that what your co-accused was doing with the white passenger? MR THUTHA He had put her on the floor so that people could not see that we were with a white person in the truck. He had her bent over so that people could not see. Have you heard Ma'am? ADV GCABASHE Yes, is that (indistinct), I just want clarification, was she laying on the floor, or seated on the seat and bent over, that is really what I wasn't sure about. Can you just explain that? Just explain was she seated and bent over, or was she on the floor, what was your observation, just to clarify that, thank you. MR THUTHA On the chair, bent over. As you are sitting on the chair and you bend over like that, so that a person from a distance cannot see you. We left in the truck, as we drove passed a school in the same area Thandekulo overtook us in a car. He signalled so that I knew where we were going to meet. He had not told me previously where we were going to meet, it is only my co-accused who had informed me. He signalled to me as to where we were to meet. I then left according to his direction, until I drove over Mbashi. ADV GCABASHE Sorry, can I just once again take you one step back. I understand the signalling by Thandekulo, what exactly did your co-accused say your RV was, had he told you that. Where did he say you were going to meet Thandekulo before Thandekulo passed you? MR THUTHA He named the place, I did not know the place because I was not from the area. Thandekulo had told my co-accused, however I don't remember what the name of the place was. What I do remember is the place where we met. It is just over the Mbashi river. We got there, Thandekulo had parked his car already next to the road. There were shrubs, bushes next to the road. He had parked his car behind a bush. A person from a distance could not really see that there was a car parked there. It is the truck that one could see because of the height of the vehicle. When we got there, my co-accused met with Thandekulo. I was left behind to see what was in the truck that I had not seen before. My co-accused then came whilst I was still searching with Thandekulo. I had gone behind the truck already to close the doors because whilst we were driving, they were wide open. There were milk tanks, I got an opportunity to close the milk tanks because they were open. When I came back towards the truck, my co-accused said to me that we should take this girl over the fence, because Thandekulo was going to deal with her. I don't know what he was going to do with her, maybe he was going to get information. I don't know what he was going to do. We took her over the fence. She was walking on her two feet. But she showed resistance because she did not know where she was being taken. MR MBANDAZAYO Did she say she did not want to be taken over to the fence, the other side of the fence? MR THUTHA She did not say, but I could see that she was resisting. MR MBANDAZAYO What did you see which meant to you that she was resisting? MR THUTHA Because I also had to go and help to take her over, she had to be dragged to be taken there, she did not want to go. MR LAX So was she resisting you, and trying to get away, and fighting with you and you had to try and control her, is that what you are saying, and then drag her across? MR THUTHA No, she was not trying to fight. She was not trying to run away either, but she was speaking English. I could not follow what she was saying, she spoke. MR LAX So she was fully conscious when you were trying to take her across? MR THUTHA I did not take note of what was going on on her face. I would give a satisfactory report if I could have looked at her face, I did not see the face properly. MR LAX Well, an unconscious person can't talk to you. CHAIRPERSON Or walk on her two feet. MR LAX Or walk on her two feet, or resist? MR THUTHA What are you saying then? MR LAX If she was doing all of those things, surely she couldn't have been unconscious. That is all I am asking you. Just answer my question. I am not saying you said she was unconscious, I am asking you whether she was unconscious. MR THUTHA I couldn't say that she was unconscious because she would not be able to walk, if she was unconscious. It is just that she did not want to go to where she was being taken. She did not want to obey the order that we were giving her. She knew that she did not have any good relationship with us. This is why she did not want to go to wherever we were taking her. MR LAX So she could hear you issuing her instructions? MR THUTHA Yes, I could say that she heard us, because her ears were not blocked in any way. MR LAX Carry on Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Continue, then when you were taking her through the fence, what happened thereafter? You took her out of the car and you were going to take her through the fence, what happened thereafter? Continue. MR THUTHA Thandekulo carried her, he was holding her by the arm, took her to a place underneath the tree. He then told the co-accused to go to the truck to see what else was there. He went, I followed behind him. I also wanted to check. I wanted to see how the truck worked as well, because it had a power brakes that I was not used to. As I was going towards the truck, I heard a bang behind me. I looked and Thandekulo was shooting there. I went back to the truck, I closed the doors. Thandekulo said I must not leave. He asked what weapon I was carrying, he asked how many bullets I've got in the home made rifle and I said there was one. He then gave me the weapon that he was using. I left this weapon in the truck, we left Thandekulo behind. I didn't see him overtaking us again on the way until we got to the tarred road. When we were on the tar road, I saw Thandekulo coming, going towards Idutywa. When we were at Nqolo's, just before Idutywa I saw a road block ahead of us and just above us there was a helicopter, I could hear the sound. I turned back, Thandekulo had just passed the road block, there were traffic cops. I turned back. As I turned back, the helicopter was already there, trying to stop me. The van with the Police also was behind me by that time. I stopped, we got out. The Police stopped us. We stood in front of the truck. There were a whole lot of Transkeian Police by then. There were a whole lot of Police by then. We were standing in front, Nqeba (indistinct), they were all there, the Police. They didn't ask anything, they just came to us and beat us up. Even the Policeman that is here in this room, he beat us up immensely. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps you could indicate which Policeman in this room, beat you up? MR THUTHA Right there, smiling at the back, with the card, that is a Transkeian Police. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell us, do you know his name? MR THUTHA I have forgotten his name, but I know him well. He is a brother to the one that has passed away, or he is a colleague, it is not clear, to the one who also was beating me up. He's got a light blue shirt on, with a tie, multi-coloured tie with red eyes. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, he is just sitting next to Captain Els. MR THUTHA That is exactly the one. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, I don't know what all the furore is about, if he is referring to, that is Captain Pangele who will be called. He attended the scene, found Donnie Meyers, he will give evidence about the photograph. CHAIRPERSON Which is Captain Pangele? MR PRIOR Just put up your hand, Captain. Pangele. CHAIRPERSON Is that the man? MR THUTHA Yes, he is one of the Police that beat me up immensely. MR MBANDAZAYO You have heard here that certain amount of money was discovered from your person. Can you tell the Committee how this money was found in your person? MR THUTHA I don't know the matter of the money, the money was found in the truck. I know that by the time we got out of the truck, I had a gun that was given to me by Thandekulo. That is what I had, and when I got out of the truck, I left it in the truck. Even my co-accused, when he got out of the truck, he left the gun behind in the truck. That is because we could see that the way that the Police came to us, they were going to beat us up. We didn't want them to see that we've got weapons. Truly when they got to us, they asked what, where are you taking the white man's truck, they didn't ask anything else, they just beat us up. They beat my co-accused more than I, a lot, they were using a gun, hitting him on the head. INTERPRETER Could the applicant please repeat those names? MR THUTHA He was being beaten up by Nqeba Mheti, a Policeman and Captain Magahlela, they beat him up on the head with the gun. I don't know the other Policemen's names. There was Madondo from Duncan, his name was Dubula, he used to work in Bizana, he is the one who was trying to stop the other Policemen from beating us up. MR MBANDAZAYO Now, you have listened to your co-applicant, or co-accused as you put it, giving evidence in this court, in this committee, before this Committee. MR THUTHA Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO And he told the Committee that Donnie, when you left the scene where you took the truck and you left her father, she was unconscious up until your RV spot in Mbashi and you are telling the Committee that that is not the case, if I can put it that way, by your evidence. Can you explain what would have been the reason that you saw her that she was conscious and he saw her as somebody who was unconscious, can you explain to the Committee? MR THUTHA If a person is walking on her two feet, can you see that they are unconscious, their state of mind? MR MBANDAZAYO He told the Committee that when you took her out of the truck, you were carrying her and you put her through the fence and she was unconscious, she couldn't do anything on her own. That is what I am trying to get at, but you are just telling us that she was walking on her feet, but she was resisting. Can you tell the Committee? MR THUTHA Another thing that happened is that my co-accused as he was beaten on the head, he was never fine again. Even to this day, he is not the same. If he has been in the sun or anything, he can't remember what happened the previous day. He is not under treatment, prison authorities don't care about his illness, he is not being treated. He is not well. MR MBANDAZAYO Are you saying to this Committee the events that happened on the 27th of August, are as you are narrating to this Committee? MR THUTHA Yes. If I don't remember anything, I will say that I don't remember, that I have forgotten. MR MBANDAZAYO Just one last aspect, can you tell the Committee was Donnie shot at the scene where Mike Meyers was also, the initial spot, was she shot there? MR THUTHA The first place as we met her, please repeat your question. MR MBANDAZAYO Let me put it this way, you told the Committee that you heard a shot, a gunshot and you looked on the left side of the truck, you didn't see your co-accused and you ran to the right hand if I am correct, and you saw Mike Meyers, and you thought that he is the person who was shooting, and you shot him. Now, what I am asking you is that the first shot that you heard, did that first shot hit Donnie Meyers? MR THUTHA I don't know who that first shot hit. As we were doing the operation, I had my job. Everybody has their particular role, just look at their roles. You can't be looking at everybody else's roles whilst you have not finished your own role. MR MBANDAZAYO Did you see whether she has any blood on her face when you were driving to your RV place, following Thandekulo? MR THUTHA I said previously that ... INTERPRETER Could the speaker please repeat the last statement. MR THUTHA I said that when we got into the truck, I looked under the driver's seat and behind the driver's seat. When I realised that there was nothing there to find, I looked in front of me, I could not see anything. On top of the dashboard there was nothing. I looked on the left side, the floor, that there was a bag with tools. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay. MR THUTHA I also noticed that there was a white person in the truck, I didn't even notice whether it was male or female because she was wearing pants with tackies and a shirt. The head was bent over, I could not differentiate whether it was a male or a female. I could not even see blood. I did not see blood there. Yes, I did hear the sound from the weapon. MR MBANDAZAYO When you were taking her out of the car at Mbashi, did you see any blood on her? MR THUTHA I did not see blood in the truck. I did not take note of her, I don't look at Boers, I don't care about Boers. CHAIRPERSON You were holding this person and dragging them along? MR THUTHA I was not holding the person. I was walking next to the person. It is my co-accused who was holding her. I just made sure that she was able to be taken over the fence. CHAIRPERSON And you never noticed any blood at that time, is that the position? MR THUTHA I did not look, I did not take note. I did not care about her. CHAIRPERSON Were you making sure that she walked along? MR THUTHA What do you mean I was making sure? CHAIRPERSON What were you doing, what part were you playing? MR THUTHA The time that she got out? CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR THUTHA She was taken out of the truck, she had to be taken over the fence. It is not only one person who would be able to take her over the fence, therefore I had to help. I had to hold her to take her over the fence. CHAIRPERSON And didn't you help to do things to make her walk? You told us she walked on her two feet, she resisted. I had to go and help, take her, she had to be dragged, didn't want to go. Have you forgotten that you told us all that a few minutes ago? MR THUTHA I would say that it was help that I was there, my presence, because if she realised that there were two people, it would help. When she started resisting, she could only see one person, then I came along. CHAIRPERSON But she was in the big van with the two of you, she knew there were two of you and now there was a third person? MR THUTHA Yes, there was a third person too. But at that time, in her view, she could not see Thandekulo. I also got out of the truck and went to close the gates from behind the truck, she could not see me at the time either. She even the person that was speaking when she was in the truck, it was only one voice and she could only see one person. I then came along to help from behind the truck. I went around the right side of the truck and they were on the passenger side. She only saw me when I got there to help with the fence. CHAIRPERSON I am afraid I don't understand all this of yours. You were the driver, weren't you? MR THUTHA Correct. CHAIRPERSON And she would have known there was a driver, driving the truck, who stopped the truck, wouldn't she? That he wasn't the person sitting next to her, holding her bent forward? Why are you being so evasive about this Mr Thutha? MR THUTHA Judge Wilson, please don't be angry when you are talking to me. You are going to spoil this if you are going to be angry at me. Please repeat your question. CHAIRPERSON Why are you trying now to give the impression that she didn't know you were there, when you were the driver of the truck, she must have known there was a driver there? MR THUTHA Judge Wilson, this is what I am saying to you, please listen carefully. When she was taken out of the truck, she at that point, she could only see one person. CHAIRPERSON But she knew the driver had just climbed out of the truck, she may not have seen him as she was taken out, but she knew he was there. MR THUTHA I am talking about her view. I don't know what she thought. ADV SANDI But Mr Thutha ... CHAIRPERSON There is evidence before us, the witness will be called later, that she was stabbed a number of times. Was this done while she was being forced to walk along? MR THUTHA No, I don't know about the stabbing. I did not see her being stabbed. CHAIRPERSON You say you know nothing about it? MR THUTHA I think that happened after we left, we left Thandekulo behind. MR LAX Behind where, sorry, just clarify this for us? At what stage are you saying you left Thandekulo behind? MR THUTHA At the place where he had parked his car before we got there. MR LAX So you drove off and you left him behind you, after the shooting? MR THUTHA Correct. MR LAX And that is when he must have stabbed her as far as you are aware? MR THUTHA I can't say I know, but I hear from you that the girl was stabbed. CHAIRPERSON But after she was stabbed, Thandekulo came up to you, after she was shot, he came up to you at the truck, asked you what gun you had, how much ammunition you had and gave you the gun he had used? This was a long way away from where the body was, wasn't it? MR THUTHA Yes. Where the body was, it was behind a bush, a shrub. You could not see the body from the road where we were standing. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Thutha, you have heard your co-applicant that it was suggested that Mr Meyers was a member of the AWB, did you know about that? MR THUTHA Yes, I saw the weapon but I heard when Thandekulo was talking to my co-accused, but I was not concentrating on what they were saying. But I just heard them saying that this white man is needed, there is information that they needed. They were not talking to me, they were speaking to each other. But I saw the weapon, it had a double "Z", it had Hitler's emblem on it. MR LAX It had a double "Z" emblem on it? MR THUTHA Hitler's emblem, the one that looks like a double "Z". Yes, here it is on this paper. MR LAX The witness has referred to Annexure J, just for the record and he identifies that as the emblem, it is the AWB emblem. ADV GCABASHE Could I just ask. You have heard the two talking to each other about this, where was this? They weren't talking to you, you say, but where was this? MR THUTHA When we were already at the turn off towards the place where this white man had parked his truck, going towards Sibekhi. This is when I heard them talking. They were not talking to me, they were speaking to each other. MR MBANDAZAYO Now finally, can you tell now, you told the Committee about what you were told to do and what happened, would you on your own if you were in the position of Thandekulo as a Commander, would you have given instruction that Mike Meyers be kidnapped or be killed or any, or Donnie Meyers be killed or kidnapped. Would you have, take yourself and put yourself in the shoes of Thandekulo, if you were in that position, would you have given that order yourself? MR THUTHA You must remember something, APLA and the Boer, because the Boer is the oppressor, we make sure that we kill the Boer when we have gotten what we want from them. I also would have done as Thandekulo had done. MR MBANDAZAYO That is all Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO . MR LAX Is there anything else that you should have told us about, that you thought about, that you might have forgotten before we start questioning you? Anything else that you want to say to us, that you might have forgotten that you think you should draw to our attention? MR THUTHA I can't say there is or not. If I have forgotten something and you remember later, reminded or triggered by certain questions, I can't really say at this point. I will deal with it, if it does come up later when you are asking me questions perhaps. I will respond accordingly. MR LAX Sorry, there is nothing affecting your memory though, your head hasn't got problems, has it? You don't seem to have any memory loss or any problem like that? I just want to make clear before we start on this? MR THUTHA My injuries on the head are not as severe as my co-accused. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOTMA Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Thutha, first of all you can recall that you gave evidence during the trial? MR THUTHA That is so. MR BOTMA The evidence that you gave during the trial, was that the truth or not? MR THUTHA Some things were true, some things were false and some things we did not divulge because of certain conditions. MR BOTMA So you gave evidence during the trial under oath, which you knew were false at that point in time? MR THUTHA Are you asking me or are you stating? MR BOTMA I am asking you. MR THUTHA Yes, but my giving evidence in court, the court where Mr Botma was prosecuting, I did not trust. Even this one, I do not trust, because, especially because of the way Mr Botma looked at me the first time when he saw me. I don't even know if this sitting will help because Botma has come with a wrong attitude. MR BOTMA Let's just get back to the facts of this case Mr Thutha, are you saying that during that trial you deliberately gave evidence under oath, which you knew were false? MR THUTHA I said to you ... MR BOTMA What is your answer? MR THUTHA Please repeat your question Mr Botma. MR BOTMA Is that your answer you said to me, is that all you want to say about that? MR THUTHA Please Mr Botma, repeat your question. MR BOTMA Let's go back. Are you saying that during the trial, you deliberately gave evidence under oath, which you knew were false? MR THUTHA Yes, I did. MR BOTMA Were you the one giving instructions to your counsel about what happened during the incident? MR THUTHA That is correct. MR BOTMA During the trial, you gave instructions to your counsel that the vehicle of Thandekulo was parked about 25 metres from the spot where Mike Meyers' truck was parked. Were you the one giving that instructions? MR THUTHA Yes, we did say. However, as I said it, I was just estimating because they were talking about metres any way, but when we went there, you could also see that the distance was over 200 metres. But you disputed anything that I said, saying that I was laying, that we were racist. It was difficult to carry on with you and work with you. Botma, I cannot work with you. MR BOTMA Let's carry on. During the trial, you testified that you stopped at the scene or some distance away from the scene, and that Thandekulo was the one that walked towards the truck and you followed them, do you agree with that submission from me? MR THUTHA I did say that to you. These are the things that I told falsely under oath. They are not so, I am telling you now. INTERPRETER The interpreter did not understand that last statement. MR THUTHA I am saying I told Botma about this, that some of the things were false that I had said, some were true. Now, what I am not revealing now, will come out later, but as he is asking now ... MR BOTMA During the trial you testified that Thandekulo was the one who shot Mike Meyers and when you arrived there, he was already shot, Donnie was already shot, and then you got into the truck. Was that also false? MR THUTHA That is exactly why. Sorry could you please repeat the question sir. MR BOTMA During the trial you testified that Thandekulo was the one that shot Mike Meyers and when you go to the truck, you found that Donnie Meyers had also already been shot at and then you got into the truck. Is that also a false version? MR THUTHA I did say that point that you are raising about Mike Meyers being shot by Thandekulo, I shot Mike Meyers. Please don't ask me that again. The girl, Donnie Meyers, I did not notice at the time that she was shot, however when we got to Mbashi, Thandekulo shot her in the head. Thandekulo killed Donnie Meyers, I killed Mike Meyers. MR BOTMA To get back to your version today, are you saying or just get it clear on that point, you were never aware before the time, that Mike Meyers, was according to information, a member of the AWB? MR THUTHA First of all it was difficult for me to know that because I was not in Umtata, I was not staying in Umtata, I was along the Wild Coast. I just came for the operation, I did not know about matters concerning the Umtata region. I was going to hear or get all the information from the man that I was going to work with. I don't know anything really beyond that. MR BOTMA So, all you knew was that you were supposed to go there, to go and get a truck and to also kidnap Mike Meyers? MR THUTHA I did not know that he was going to be kidnapped or what we were going to do when we got there. What I did know, was that we were going to get the truck. We used to get trucks from comrades. I did not know from whom we were going to get this truck, or how. There was not even an indication that would perhaps lead me or inform me as to what we were going to do. MR BOTMA Did you know that the truck belonged to a white man before the time? MR THUTHA No. MR BOTMA So all you knew was that you were going to go there, to go and get a truck? Did you know that you were supposed to rob the truck from the owner thereof? MR THUTHA I did not know anything. MR BOTMA When you saw Mike Meyers coming out of the vehicle, where were you? MR THUTHA I was behind the truck. Mike Meyers got out of the truck after the bullet sound. I first looked towards the left side where my co-accused was standing, and then I looked at the right side, and Mike Meyers was getting out of the truck. ADV GCABASHE Sorry, just to clarify this small thing again. You looked to the left side where your co-accused was standing. Earlier you said you didn't see him, just sort that one out for me please. MR THUTHA I first looked on the left hand side, and realised that I could not see my co-accused where he had been standing, then I looked on the right hand side. After realising that I could not see him, I thought maybe he is the one that had been shot. This then led me to take out my gun and shoot him, this white man because I could not see my comrade, but I had heard the bullet sound. MR BOTMA Where exactly where you when you heard the first shot? MR THUTHA I was behind the truck. I was watching the people that was selling milk at the back of the truck, I was looking at them. However, I was also trying to keep an eye on my co-accused. CHAIRPERSON Did you know what your co-accused had gone forward to do? MR THUTHA I knew that he was going in front. I did not know what he was going to do. I was just going to look to him, as to what was going to happen. MR BOTMA Did he not tell you that he was going to take care of the operation and that you must just stay behind to look after the people at the back? MR THUTHA That is correct. MR BOTMA Before you heard the shot, could you from where you were standing, could you see your co-applicant? MR THUTHA Yes, I could see him at first, because whilst I was standing behind the truck, I would periodically go and peep on his side, then I would come back and look at the people, who were selling the milk. After the bullet sound, I was not able to see him, where he was standing. MR BOTMA From the time you arrived there at the truck, can you give this Commission an indication of how long did it take before you heard this first shot? MR THUTHA I can't estimate, because this happened a long time ago. I can't count, however, I can't say it is, it is too long a time, it was just after a moment, after we had gotten to the truck. MR BOTMA You told us that when you heard the first shot, you peeped to the left hand side. Did you mean that you were walking, you were going passed the side of the truck and looking what was going on on the left hand side? MR THUTHA I wanted to look where my co-accused was as the bullet sound went. I wanted to see what he was doing. MR BOTMA Did you go around the truck, that is the question? MR THUTHA I was still behind and I just peeped at the corner, then I went to peep towards the right hand side. MR BOTMA What exactly did you see when you peeped to the right hand side? MR THUTHA I saw Mike Meyers getting out of the truck in a hurry. However, I saw that his right hand was behind him, still in the truck. MR BOTMA As you were looking towards Mike Meyers, which part of his body was turned towards you, his left hand side, right hand side, back or his front? MR THUTHA As Mike Meyers was getting out of the truck, his front was faced towards me, the man was faced towards me. MR BOTMA So, are you saying he was getting out of the truck, with his face towards the back of the truck? MR THUTHA It was as I was standing behind the truck or towards the back of the truck, he was facing me. He was getting out of the truck, facing me, towards the back of the truck. MR BOTMA And what was he doing with his right hand exactly? MR THUTHA I don't know, but I noticed that he was - it seemed as if he was trying to take something. MR BOTMA Was he bent towards the right hand side, in other words with his front towards the inside of the truck, to try to get something out of the truck or was he just still looking towards you, with his right hand, right arm stretched out towards the truck? MR THUTHA It was stretched as if he was pulling something. I noticed that it was, must have been heavy, whatever it is that he was pulling. But he was standing properly and he was trying to pull something. MR BOTMA After you fired the shot, what did he do? MR THUTHA After who had fired the shot? MR BOTMA You. MR THUTHA I went to Mike Meyers to look around his waist to see if he had a gun. MR BOTMA Did you notice any injuries on him? MR THUTHA Yes, I saw the bullet wound just beneath the ribs. MR BOTMA Did you regard the wound as being serious at that stage? MR THUTHA He was dressed, but I could see that where I had shot him, it would be very difficult for him to survive. MR BOTMA What do you mean by that? MR THUTHA I mean that where the wound was, I was sure that he was not going to live. Even the Doctor that tried to help him, the Doctor would get there, and he would have passed away already. MR BOTMA Were you concerned about his health or the fact that he was going to die at that point, or not? MR THUTHA This white man? Please repeat your question. MR BOTMA Were you concerned at that stage, when you looked at him, you saw the wound, were you concerned about his health or whether he is going to stay alive or is going to die? MR THUTHA I was only worried about the information, that we were not going to get the information from him. I was not worried or concerned about anything else, it was just the information that I was concerned with. MR BOTMA What information are you referring to now? MR THUTHA I heard my co-accused talking to Thandekulo, they said they wanted something from this white man, information. Even though they were not talking to me, I overheard this. I was concerned that this white man is dead, and we are not going to get the information. I was not concerned about his death in that sense, I did not have a problem with him. MR BOTMA So you knew that he was supposed to be taken and to be questioned in order to get information from him, before you went to the truck? MR THUTHA What you know is what you are directly told. I had overheard this, I was not told directly so I can't say to you that I was told or that I had knowledge, clear knowledge of that. CHAIRPERSON Are you suggesting that when you overhear your Commander saying something to somebody else about an operation, you haven't got knowledge of it? MR THUTHA When somebody is talking to somebody else and you overhear, you don't know really about that. Even when you are relating it, you are not going to be able to put it well in context. You will know when the person is talking to you directly. MR LAX Did your co-accused not brief you on this operation? MR THUTHA Before the operation? MR LAX Precisely. Even at the point, at any stage before you commenced on the operation, in other words from the time you left Thandekulo's car, prior to that point, had you been briefed in any way about this operation? MR THUTHA No, they did not tell me anything. MR LAX So your Unit Commander who was Mr Kulman, and your Regional Commander did not tell you about the operation. You just overheard a few things while they were talking, is that what you are telling us? MR THUTHA Yes. MR LAX And that is why you were worried because you had overheard they wanted to get information from the man? MR THUTHA Yes. MR LAX Now, when you walked towards the truck, you told us that your co-accused, Mr Kulman said to you that you must go to the back of truck and watch the people there, is that right? MR THUTHA That is right. MR LAX Is that all he said to you? MR THUTHA Yes, that is what he said to me. MR LAX Are you sure about that? MR THUTHA Let me repeat this because the way you are asking me now, it is not clear to me. This is what happened, when we were going to the truck, my co-accused, when we were getting close to the truck, he told me that I am going to stand behind the truck, we want the truck and this man, this white man who is driving the truck. Anything else, I am going to hear from him. I just had to stand behind the truck. He then said this white man might resist, therefore I must be alert. That is what happened. I stood behind the truck and he went towards the front. MR LAX You didn't see Donnie Meyers in the truck? MR THUTHA I did see her, but I couldn't distinguish whether it was a male or a female, I could see it was a white person though. MR LAX So when you were approaching the truck, you could see there was another person in the truck? I am just trying to clear that up? Or was it only at a later stage that you realised that there was another person in the truck? MR THUTHA It was at a later stage. I couldn't see because the truck had tanks inside, at the back. When you are standing behind the truck as well, you can't see who is inside the truck, in the front. You had to go around to see how many people there are. Unless you come from the side or the front, then you could see. We came from the back of the truck. MR LAX Thank you Mr Botma. MR THUTHA Between the two of us, there is only one person who first went towards the front of the truck, then he could see that there were two people. I was just aware that there was somebody in the truck. MR BOTMA During this long explanation, you told us that your co-accused informed you that he was looking for the truck and the white man, is that correct, did you say that? MR THUTHA Please repeat your question. MR BOTMA You told us now that before the time your co-accused told you that he is looking for the truck and the white man, he wants the truck and he wants the white man. MR THUTHA Excuse me a moment. My co-accused told me this about five steps before we got to the truck. If the truck perhaps is by the door, he didn't give any long details because there were people around us as well, who had gone to buy milk. INTERPRETER The witness indicated a distance from where he is sitting to the door, however, he called that five steps, five paces. CHAIRPERSON What is it, 25 to 30 paces? MR BOTMA I would agree. So, he told you that he wants the white man before you got to the truck, and before you started this operation? MR THUTHA Pardon? Please repeat your question. MR BOTMA So, before you started this operation, in other words before you got to the truck and he went to the left hand side, he told you that he wanted the white man and he wanted the truck? MR THUTHA Yes, that is correct. MR BOTMA After the shooting of Mike Meyers, you decided to get into the truck and you found the co-accused already inside the truck with Donnie Meyers, is that correct? MR THUTHA Yes, but this person was bent over, I could not see who she was. I could just see that it was a person. MR BOTMA You the drove off with the truck towards the point where you were supposed to meet Thandekulo? MR THUTHA That is correct. MR BOTMA Was Donnie Meyers making any noises or sounds whilst you were driving towards the spot where you stopped later? MR THUTHA I could not really take note because the truck was making a noise and there was an iron gate at the back of the truck. This was on a gravel road, therefore there was even more noise, because there were stones on the gravel road. I couldn't really take note, because I knew that he was looking or concentrating on this person. I was just looking ahead of me. MR BOTMA During the trial you testified that the girl was groaning and she was still alive and you could see that she was bleeding. Do you recall saying that? MR THUTHA It could be so, because as I said I might have forgotten some details, because this happened a long time ago. It could be so. MR BOTMA Do you agree that at the time of the trial, it was closer to the incident than today, so it was more fresh in your memory? MR THUTHA Yes, that is correct. MR BOTMA And can we then take from that, that she was in fact groaning as you were travelling and you could see her bleeding from her head? MR THUTHA I did not see any blood. Even the fact that you say that I said she was groaning, I can't remember clearly. I am not disputing that, but I have said that some of the things that we have said, as I said that Mike Meyers was shot by Thandekulo, that is not true. I have told you that some of the things that we have said, were false. Having denied knowing Thandekulo, yes, we know that Thandekulo is a comrade within the party. There could have been a way that we find out exactly who Thandekulo was, but you have to remember as my co-accused also said, that we were hiding some information at the time. MR BOTMA During the trial you testified that she was bleeding and it seems as if she was bleeding from her head. Did you say that, can you recall saying that? MR THUTHA I can't remember. I hear you however, when you are saying that. MR BOTMA And you further testified that you actually felt sorry for this girl and you wanted to take her to a hospital, can you recall saying that? MR THUTHA Previously? MR BOTMA During the trial? MR THUTHA Yes, I do remember that. MR BOTMA You also further testified that after Thandekulo shot her, you were on your way to the Police station to go and report this murder of this young girl at the Police station, do you recall saying that? MR THUTHA I do remember. MR BOTMA And was that correct? MR THUTHA No, we were just trying to protect ourselves in the case. MR BOTMA Just take you back a short while. When you, after Thandekulo dropped you, you walked towards this truck, what happened to Thandekulo? MR THUTHA We left him behind. Beyond that, I don't know what happened. We just left and drove off, went ahead. MR BOTMA No, because you testified and I couldn't follow you properly there, that as you were going towards the truck, he followed you, but he did not go along with you. What did you mean by that? MR THUTHA Is that what I said, are you saying I said in court? MR BOTMA No, today. Today, during your evidence in chief. MR THUTHA That Thandekulo followed us, please look carefully, take note of what you are saying. Please don't say things that I didn't say. MR LAX Sorry, just for the record, so that you understand carefully. Your earlier evidence was that you got to this place, he parked the car in a place where you couldn't see the truck, you guys got out and started walking towards the truck. He followed you, you said in your evidence, but you don't know where he went. You carried on towards the truck. You then explained that you could see the truck, once you got up to the road, you could see the truck. Do you remember that? That was earlier this morning? MR THUTHA You have taken note and you wrote this down in a way that I didn't say it. Whenever you ask this question, you are angry. MR LAX I am not angry at all. MR THUTHA I don't know .. MR LAX But any way ... MR THUTHA Why do you shout at me, because sometimes you shout or reprimand, in a sense reprimand me when you are talking to me. What is the cause of that? INTERPRETER I think the applicant was referring to impatient. ADV GCABASHE Mr Thutha, my note on that same point is that we went towards the truck, we left Thandekulo behind. Thandekulo following us, but not with us. Just briefly, because you were talking quite fast. So the sense is that he was with you, essentially. That is what I noted. CHAIRPERSON Not with them? ADV GCABASHE No, follow, in that sense. MR THUTHA Have you all got the same note down? MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, may I also indicate that that was also my note, that Thandekulo was following. CHAIRPERSON And I gather it is your Attorney's recollection as well? MR LAX Translate what he is saying. MR THUTHA Why don't you ask him what he wrote, don't think for him. That is a mistake because you are thinking for him, you can ask him what he wrote. MR LAX Listen, we all wrote the same thing, you lawyer is nodding in agreement with us, that that is what he remembers. Correct? MR MBANDAZAYO That is true Mr Chairman. MR THUTHA I was not looking at him. MR LAX We are trying to ask you to help us, so that we can understand what happened. It is not about catching you out, you are here to tell us the full truth. We need to try and understand, so please now the question is everyone agrees that is what you said. What did you mean when you said that? MR THUTHA Please repeat what you say I have said. MR LAX Ms Gcabashe can ... ADV GCABASHE No, no, it is his cross-examination, please continue. CHAIRPERSON What you said was that you parked the car near a short of bridge, from which you could not, the car could not be seen from the truck, but standing on the road, you could see the truck. You then went on to say we went towards the truck, left Thandekulo behind. He was following us, but he was not with us. MR THUTHA Okay, I do understand now. But you ask a lot of questions, you ask a question and then you ask the question again in a different way, so that confuses me, but now I do understand it, your question. Yes, we left Thandekulo behind, but he was watching where we were going. He was also watching whether are we going to do the job we were given to do. But, I am sure that my co-accused could not see Thandekulo because he was concentrating on what we were going to do and he was the leader, I was going to assist him. The fact that he would look behind, I don't think he would see him, or he did not look behind. I was besides him there, going with him. MR BOTMA Let's get to the point, what did you mean with he followed you? MR THUTHA I meant that in the place where we were, where we parked the bakkie, we could not see the truck. Even if I was standing next to the bakkie, I couldn't see the truck. Thandekulo wanted to see that we would do the job we were given, because if he could be in the bakkie, he would not see us in the truck. That is why he decided to go next to the road, so that he can see what was happening. MR BOTMA Now, on the way towards Mbashi, he overtook your vehicle, and he went passed you, is that correct? MR THUTHA That is correct. MR BOTMA Where exactly was his truck parked, or his van parked when you got to the forest? MR THUTHA You mean in Mbashi? MR BOTMA Correct. MR THUTHA It was parked in front of the truck, but it was on the side, there was a bush or a shrub next to his van. A person passing by would not see Thandekulo's car, because there were bushes or shrubs next to the car. A person would not see that there was a car. A person would see the truck because of its height, there were also tanks in the truck. MR BOTMA These bushes and shrubs, were they on the left hand side of his van? MR THUTHA They were on the left hand side, but you must remember that they were, the car could not, you could not see the car. MR LAX Sorry, can I just clarify something here. You couldn't see the car from where? Could you not see it from the road, because that was my initial understanding from what you said this morning? MR THUTHA How did you understand me? MR LAX That you could not see his bakkie from the road. MR THUTHA You are confusing these things. When you could not see the bakkie, was the first place that we parked Thandekulo's bakkie, before we went to Mike Meyers. In Mbashi I did not say it as you are saying it. That is why I am saying you are writing things that I did not say. MR LAX No, I am not saying, I am trying to ask you to help us understand what you said, so that we can clarify this thing. Could you see the bakkie from the road at Mbashi, yes or no? MR THUTHA In Mbashi, a person from a distance for example, as there were people in the bridge next to the river, they would not see the bakkie, but they would see the truck. There was a tree or shrub next to the bakkie, so you wouldn't see it. MR LAX The question was, could you see the bakkie? I am not interested in other people, as you drove, approaching the bakkie on the road, could you see it from the road, yes or no? MR THUTHA Yes, we did see the bakkie because it was parked on the road, that I was driving in. MR LAX So it was parked on the road side, on the road itself? Let's clarify that. MR THUTHA On the road side. The wheels were on the road, two wheels were on the road and two wheels on the side of the road, as it was a gravel road. In front, on the left side, there was this tree or this shrub, that is why a person couldn't see this van. MR LAX So it was obscuring the front of his bakkie? Was it obscuring the front of his bakkie? MR THUTHA A person coming from the front of the bakkie, would not see the bakkie as a whole, but a person coming from behind, would see the bakkie. MR LAX From the side, and a person looking from the side? MR THUTHA Yes, maybe he will see the bakkie, but there were a lot of shrubs on the left side and on the right side. But there was a kind of a hill on the right side, a person would not see the bakkie, because there were a lot of shrubs on the left side. A person would not see it. Maybe a person across the road, across the bridge would see the bakkie, because there was a kind of a hill. A person on that side would see the bakkie. The person who was closer to the river, he would see the bakkie. MR BOTMA That road was going up hill and there was a brickyard on the left hand side, further up hill, is that correct? MR THUTHA Where exactly, next to the bridge or before you cross Mbashi or after you've crossed Mbashi, please explain where exactly. MR BOTMA From that point where you parked and from where you travelled further on towards Idutywa and on this road, you went passed a brickyard that was up hill from the point you parked earlier? MR THUTHA I do hear your question, but I don't understand it clearly because I could not remember what you are talking about. What I do remember is that when I was passing this way, I met a bridge, Mbashi bridge and there was a person who was washing a car, E20 on the bridge. There was another person but I didn't take notice, but I did see one person except for this kombi, this E20. When I crossed the bridge, I went up to a village but the houses, I couldn't see the houses and the people there wouldn't be able to see what was happening. MR BOTMA The bottom line is that if you were on the higher level than the place where you were parked, then you could see the truck and the bakkie being parked there? MR THUTHA When we were on the hill and the other person were, please explain your question, I don't understand it. MR BOTMA If a person was on higher ground than you were, he would have noticed the truck as well as the van? MR THUTHA That is what you say, but I am not saying that. What I am saying is that close to the truck, near to the truck, as we were parked, maybe they could see the truck because of the height of the truck. However, it would be hard to see the car, because there was a bush at the side. It would then be difficult to see the car. MR BOTMA Just get back to after the point you parked, you assisted the co-accused to drag Donnie towards the spot where you left her, is that correct? MR THUTHA You are saying that we dragged her. I did not say that. Please put it as I had said it. I did not say that we dragged her. MR BOTMA Was she dragged at all by anybody on that day, in your presence? MR THUTHA I don't know about her being dragged. MR BOTMA Was she resisting to some extent that somebody had to use force to take her further on? MR THUTHA We did not use force. However, she was held by the arm, but I could see that she was resisting, however, she did end up going when she realised that I was coming as the second person. As I was coming close to her, to help lower the fence so that she could be taken over the fence. She was taken over the fence without resistance. MR BOTMA I've got a note here where you testified, she had to be dragged. MR LAX We all have the same note. That was your evidence earlier this morning. MR THUTHA What you have written is not right. You have oppressive ways as we sit in this Committee, I have noticed this, even from the first week when Madasi was here, that you pick and choose in this Committee. CHAIRPERSON We make a record of what you say, it doesn't help you subsequently to pretend you didn't say it. We all have the same record that you said she had to be dragged, she didn't want to go. MR LAX Even your lawyer is nodding his head in agreement, that is what you said. Please, we are not here to trick you, we are here to try and hear the truth from you and where you make mistakes or you say things that you now deny you said, it is our duty to put them to you and ask you to clarify them. We are not oppressing you, we are trying to get to the truth and it is our duty to do that. We want you to understand that. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean we are oppressing you, but we have to point out to you the contradictions. INTERPRETER Could the interpreter find out exactly which word the applicant used, because the word "pull" and "drag" in Xhosa is the same word. Could I have permission to ask the applicant which word he used exactly. MR MBANDAZAYO Listen to the interpreter. MR THUTHA I said that the comrade held her by the arm, I then helped by the fence, so that she can be taken over the fence. MR BOTMA So did you use the word "pull" then, not "drag"? MR THUTHA She was pulled by the arm. MR BOTMA By both of you? MR THUTHA No. MR BOTMA In your evidence during the trial, you testified that she was bleeding, but could not talk at that stage. Today you are saying that she was speaking English, which version is now the correct one? MR THUTHA All this that you are saying, I did not say. I said that I did not understand anything that she was saying, it was not audible. I did not say she spoke English, you are not saying what I said. You are giving me problems. MR LAX Sorry, Mr Thutha, again I must just correct your recollection. You definitely said she was speaking in English, you didn't understand her. MR THUTHA I am getting tired now. MR LAX We all are getting tired, it is a long day, but we have a job to do and if you want us to hear your application, you've got to find the energy so that we can get this thing going. Now, please try and help us. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. Please tell the Committee, if you don't understand it and you want it to repeat what you have told them, tell them. They are, you are going to be assisted. ...(tape ends) ...[inaudible] is going to be repeated to you, that you be reminded of what you have said. It's not going to help saying you didn't say that. If you don't remember saying it, say it to the Committee so that it may help you. INTERPRETER The witness is not audible. MR THUTHA It's just that I'm tired, I'm very tired, can we adjourn? MS GCABASHE Before we might do that, if I can be of some assistance simply because I'm sitting right here. The word I recall you using was: ...[no English translation] it's just to assist the interpreter and that's that interpretation I think of - she was speaking English, that was then brought across to us. Just to assist you and to show you that we're not trying to be difficult, we're just trying to assist you in remembering some of the things you said and to reconcile these things where you are able to. MR THUTHA I really need a break. I'm not alright, I'm looking at a policeman that beat me up and I'm not okay. This has disturbed me greatly. Maybe he can sit aside or something, I can't keep on looking at him, he's in my view, he is disturbing me. MR LAX We're just going to check if lunch is nearly ready or what the position is. Mr Kulman, in the meantime - please can we just calm down, in the meantime - I beg your pardon, sorry Mr Thutha, I apologise, in the meantime while we're checking, the lunch isn't quite ready, can you persevere for another 5 minutes or so? The man you were worried about has now left. Let's see if we can just finish some of these issues before we break for lunch because it's not ready yet and it would be silly to break now if there's no lunch available for everybody. So, please can you try to persevere, it will help us a lot. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR BOTMA All this evidence was given whilst your attorney was leading you and you were giving your evidence in chief, when you testified of the dragging the speaking of English. Now, lets get to the point. Was she speaking in English or was she speaking inaudible? MR THUTHA It was not audible at the time. As I've said there was a noise, the truck was making a whole lot of noise. The gates at the back were making a noise and the truck was making a noise driving and also it was a gravel road. MR LAX Sorry, you're a bit confused . We were talking about the time once you'd got to Mbashe where you were leaning to assist to get her over the fence and all that stuff, that's what we were talking about. MR THUTHA No, she did not speak, she did not say anything that I heard. I did not hear her speak. MR BOTMA So you ...[inaudible] morning that she was speaking English was not correct or was incorrect? MR THUTHA If I said that I was mistaken. MR BOTMA Did she speak at any time or did she ask you at any time anything, from the time that you got to the truck until the time that you last saw her? MR THUTHA This is why I'm saying to you I could not hear her in the truck because it was noisy and we were using a gravel road. The iron gates were making a noise. This is why, when I got to Mbashe I went towards the back to close these iron gates and the truck, I could not hear anything if something were to come from behind me. I had to close the gates because I could not hear anything because of the noise. MS GCABASHE Just so there is no confusion at all Mr Thutha, at the time you were talking her to the fence, did you hear her say anything at all? MR THUTHA I said that I did not hear anything but I did take note with my eyes, I could see that she was resisting. MS GCABASHE Thank you. MR BOTMA When you got to the spot in the forest where you were taking her to, what happened to her? Did you return to the truck or did you leave somebody else behind with her, what was the situation? MR THUTHA Thandekulo was already on the other side of the fence. That place Thandekulo had chose. We took her over the fence where Thandekulo was. After we'd put her down he gave an order that my co-accused must go and check in the truck, he went. I then followed because I was not familiar with the truck, I wanted to take note of what was going on. MR BOTMA At the time that you assisted your co-accused to take her from the truck, where was Thandekulo? MR THUTHA I did not say that I helped with her being taken out of the truck, I helped when she was taken over the fence. I did not say that, you must not say things that I did not say. I don't know what you are trying to do. MR BOTMA Where was Thandekulo at that stage? MS GCABASHE To rephrase the question, where was Thandekulo when your colleague, Kulman was taking Donnie towards the fence and you were somewhere near there? MR THUTHA He was in his van. He left the van with two guns, went over the fence. He'd already given an order that this girl must be taken over the fence. When we took the girl over the fence Thandekulo was already there. He was - I don't know, he was inspecting, Thandekulo was already inspecting the place to see where she could be put. MR BOTMA So Thandekulo went straight from his van towards the forest with two guns in his hands? MR THUTHA The one was around his waist and the other one he had in his hand. MR BOTMA Was he ever nearby the truck before that time, before Mr Meyers' truck? MR THUTHA Yes, when I went to close the iron gates from behind the truck Thandekulo did come close to the truck and he was looking at the person as well that we told him that we brought. He did come to the truck in that way. Whatever else he did I don't know because I was behind the truck at the back. MR BOTMA Was he inside the truck? MR THUTHA I had left the door open when I got off. The truck is big and had milk tanks at the back. You can't see the front when you are at the back because of the milk. I couldn't exactly what Thandekulo was doing whilst I was closing the gates. What I did was, I first closed the tanks with the milk and then I got off and closed the gates, therefore I could not see what he was doing at the front. MR BOTMA Was your co-accused carrying any firearm at the time that you taking Donnie to the spot where Thandekulo was waiting for you? MR THUTHA Yes, Thandekulo had a gun but he didn't show anything that he was going to use it or anything like that, he had it because - I also had a gun like any soldier, he did have a gun. I'm not saying that at that time he had it to use it. CHAIRPERSON You said Thandekulo, you were asked I think about Kulman. MR THUTHA I heard of Thandekulo not Kulman. CHAIRPERSON Did Kulman have a gun with him? MR THUTHA When exactly. CHAIRPERSON When you were taking the girl over the fence? MR THUTHA Please remember my co-accused, by the time I got into the truck had his own gun as he said. Nobody took that gun from him, I did not see anyone taking it. I did not take note whether he had the gun with him when he was talking out the girl from the truck. Maybe he had it with him but he didn't have it in his hand. MR BOTMA When - after you took the girl to Thandekulo you went back towards the truck on the instructions from Thandekulo and then you heard the firearm shots, did you realise that at that point in time he was shooting Donnie? MR THUTHA We knew that he was shooting the girl because there was no monkey or bird there, he could not shoot in the air either because we didn't have many bullets, he could not just waste the bullets like that. MR BOTMA Did you reconcile yourself with the fact that he shot and killed Donnie at that stage? MR THUTHA Who me or himself? MR BOTMA Did you reconcile yourself with the fact that he shot and killed her? MR THUTHA Please explain, elaborate on your question, I'm not following it. I don't understand his question well. MR BOTMA When you realised that he shot and killed Donnie, did you have any problems with that, did you regard it as being what happens ...[indistinct] the whole procedure and the whole operation? MR THUTHA I don't know what he got from Donnie that led him to kill her. I think that the reason, there is a reason why he shot Donnie or he killed Donnie, he must have found something. You don't just kill people like that, something must have led him to do it. That is what I think. MR MBANDAZAYO I don't think you get the question correctly, I don't - since the answer. Can I maybe assist and simplify, maybe the reconcile will reflect as the interpretation was not ... You're being asked, as you heard Thandekulo shooting, it is clear that you the one, you did not shoot at that time The families representative is asking if, after you realised that Donnie had been shot, did you reconcile yourself with that? MR THUTHA It is painful for somebody to die, whoever everybody dies for a reason. I cannot take, I cannot personalise that reason. INTERPRETER The applicant's answer is not clear. MR THUTHA I don't want to say it was - I felt hurt, it caused pain to me, however there is nothing that I could do about it, about her dying. CHAIRPERSON What you did say just before that - as I made a note of it, was: "You don't just kill people like that, there must have been some reason for him doing it". Is that what you felt? MR THUTHA Yes, I did say that. Thandekulo was the commander, he knew a lot, he's the one who knew a lot. He therefore could reach his own conclusions or even conclude for us. He did not give me reasons after he had killed, as to why he did that. He is the one who knows. MR BOTMA If he instructed you to kill her, would you have killed her? MR THUTHA Yes. I can't disobey an order because everything that I did, killing Mike Meyers, if I had not killed Mike Meyers I think that there could have been a possibility that I'd die as well. He didn't have to run away and he got out of the car from my side. MR BOTMA I'm referring to the killing Donnie Meyers, would you have killed her if instructed to do so by Thandekulo or requested to do so? MR THUTHA I said yes, I wouldn't defy an order. MR BOTMA When you realised that he killed her did you have any problem with the fact that he killed her? I'm referring to Thandekulo. MR THUTHA As I have already said, a person's death is a painful thing. I don't just wish that somebody would die, however if you oppress, if one oppresses another person in their own land then I hope, I wish that they would die, not just any person. CHAIRPERSON Are you going to be much longer? MR BOTMA I'm almost finished, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Very well, just go ahead and finish. MR BOTMA Was she wearing a jersey on that day? I'm referring to Donnie now. MR THUTHA It was very hot that day, she was wearing a shirt, had jeans on, she was wearing training shoes, white training shoes. MR BOTMA When she was taken to the spot, was the jersey taken with you or with her to the spot? MR THUTHA I don't remember about the jersey, perhaps we found it there where it was. I don't remember about the jersey. MR BOTMA When you handed Donnie over to Thandekulo, was she still standing on her own feet or what was she doing? MR THUTHA Donnie was standing on her own two feet. Her lying on the ground, that happened much later when I saw, I only saw that on the photograph. MR BOTMA I couldn't follow you properly. Did you take the money from the truck and put that in your pocket or on your person? MR THUTHA I did not take the money. MR BOTMA When you were searched, are you saying that no money was found in your possession, in your direct possession? MR THUTHA No, but that's what the police said but they didn't find any money with me, this is what the police said though. MR BOTMA You told this Committee that the policeman who was sitting inside was one of those people assaulting you, was that at the scene of your arrest? MR THUTHA Yes, I saw him at the place where the girl had been killed. MR BOTMA Were you also then assaulted at the same place by the local people as well? MR THUTHA Yes, that is correct. The police handed us over to the people of the community. MR BOTMA And what did the people of the community say when they assaulted you? MR THUTHA They said, they asked why we had killed a white person in the area. MR BOTMA Is that all they said? MR THUTHA They had said a whole lot of other things, they swore at us. I can't repeat that here but that was their main point. MR BOTMA Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOTMA CHAIRPERSON We'll take the adjournment now and endeavour to start again at a quarter to two. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ZUMA THUTHA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Despite the threats made yesterday, it seems likely that we will adjourn by 16H15 this afternoon but if the interpreters do feel they need a break before then, a short break, could they just let me know? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR May I proceed Mr Chairman? Mr Thutha, was this the first operation you went on for APLA? MR THUTHA Yes. MR PRIOR And it seems you were arrested on the same day, it was your only operation? MR THUTHA That is correct. MR PRIOR When had you joined APLA? MR THUTHA In 1990. MR PRIOR Had you trained as a soldier from 1990 up until 1993, is that correct? MR THUTHA Correct. MR PRIOR Where had you been based, where was your base camp or your training camp? MR THUTHA In Zamba. MR PRIOR And who was your commander, your camp commander, do you know? MR THUTHA Yes, I do know him. MR PRIOR Well tell us his name please. MR THUTHA Percy. MR PRIOR And you said on the 27th of August you were informed by Thandekulo for the first time that you were going on a mission to obtain a vehicle, is that correct? MR THUTHA Thandekulo told me that I would meet with Maxomia, he then would tell me what we are going to do. I did not say that Thandekulo told me that we were going to fetch a car. MR PRIOR And that was in Umtata that he told you to join up with your co-applicant? MR THUTHA Yes, that is correct. MR PRIOR Did you belong to a regiment or a detachment? Yes? MR THUTHA Please explain that word to me. Please ask the question again. MR PRIOR Did you not belong to a regiment? If you were a military man then you must understand what a regiment is, a group of soldiers. MR THUTHA Yes, I was, I did. MR PRIOR What was the name of the regiment? MR THUTHA I have forgotten the name of the unit. MR PRIOR Who was your commander in that unit? MR THUTHA It was Percy as I said. I had changed, when I went to Umtata I changed from one unit to another. MR PRIOR Okay. You left Percy's unit, to which unit did you then join or become attached? MR THUTHA Thandekulo's unit in Umtata. MR PRIOR Did that have a name, that unit? MR THUTHA I did not take note of the name, if the unit had a name or not, I did not take note of that. MS GCABASHE Sorry, can I just, to clear one little thing up, when did you come to Umtata and join Thandekulo's unit? MR THUTHA In June. I can't remember the date though. MS GCABASHE Thank you. MR PRIOR Did you receive training in the use of automatic weapons like the R5, R4 rifle, AK47? MR THUTHA Yes, I did. MR PRIOR And did Thandekulo's unit have those weapons when you were in Umtata? MR THUTHA Yes. MR PRIOR I want just your comment on this. Something that bothers me is that you went on this important mission and you were given a homemade weapon, we haven't heard too much about it. Did you regard that as a efficient enough weapon for your operation? MR THUTHA Yes, because I made the weapon, I'm able to use them as well. MR PRIOR Is that a piece of pipe mounted on a wooden frame with a homemade trigger mechanism, a wire and a spring, in other words with a hammer that strikes the cartridge or is it a slingshot type of mechanism where the firing pin operates on a rubber band? MR THUTHA Yes, you make your own hammer and the firing pin as well. I made it myself, we did not buy anything. I made the guns and they shoot better even than the ones you buy in the shop. CHAIRPERSON Did you keep this gun that you had made? Was it in your possession? MR THUTHA Some I had given to the army but this one I would get it from the army if I'm going out. CHAIRPERSON And you were issued it then for this operation? MR THUTHA Yes, I was given it that day, not at the place of, not the venue as such but they gave it to me on the way. I had in my hands, they gave it to me, handed it over to me when we were going towards Xongoga. CHAIRPERSON And as I understand it, they gave you two rounds of ammunition. MR THUTHA Yes. MR PRIOR Were those shotgun rounds? Do you know what a shotgun round is as apposed to a solid point, like a ...[intervention]? MR THUTHA Yes, I know what a shogun is. MR PRIOR And did this homemade firearm that you made and that you had on that day, did it fire a shotgun cartridge? MR THUTHA No, we used pumpgun bullets. MR PRIOR A shotgun cartridge, is that full of pellets or with a single lead point like a bullet for a rifle? MR THUTHA Do you have the picture of pumpgun bullets in your mind? MR PRIOR Yes, like a pumpaction shotgun? MR THUTHA Yes, yes, those ones. MR PRIOR Alright. 12 gauge? MR THUTHA I beg your pardon? MR PRIOR Alright, I don't want to get into that. I just want to ask you one aspect on the trial. You agreed that you told the Trial Court that Thandekulo had shot Mike Meyers at the truck and you also said that was not true, my question is, did you say that in order to minimise your role in that aspect of the operation? MR THUTHA Yes, I did do that. MR PRIOR Did you want to distance yourself from the shooting of Mike Meyers? MR THUTHA Yes, that is correct. MR PRIOR And you also told the same Trial Court that Thandekulo also shot Donnie in the forest, was that also untrue? MR THUTHA That was true. As I have already said, some things were true that I said and some were not but that particular fact was true. MR PRIOR Now I understand your earlier evidence that you really had difficulty during that trial, some things that you said were right and some were incorrect, you had difficulty with the police who had assaulted you and the whole system, but why is it that you told a lie about Mike Meyers but yet you told the truth about Donnie? CHAIRPERSON Well wasn't it quite obvious why he was denying his liability, he was facing a charge of murder. He said he didn't do it, somebody else did it. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. Well let me put this to you, was the reason that you also wanted to distance yourself from the killing of Donnie Meyers that you actually participated in that? MR THUTHA When I said what? MR PRIOR That Thandekulo had shot and killed Donnie Meyers in the forest. MR THUTHA I was telling the truth when I said that, it's not that I was distancing myself. I just told the truth as to what Thandekulo did. MR PRIOR Your evidence was - and I followed your evidence, that you assisted to take Donnie against her will, she was struggling, from the truck over the fence to where Thandekulo had chosen a certain spot. You did that with Mr Kulman, is that right? MR THUTHA Yes, I did admit to that. MR PRIOR And at that time you knew Thandekulo had said that this white female was useless, is that right? MR THUTHA I did not hear Thandekulo's response, I just heard him to my co-accused to go back to the truck to see if there's anything there. MR PRIOR That's what Mr Kulman said in his affidavit that he handed in yesterday. But be that as it may, is your evidence then at that stage: Kulman leaves to go back to search the truck and you go back to check the brakes of that vehicle while you leave Thandekulo with Donnie Meyers? MR THUTHA Yes, it is. MR PRIOR And you had driven the truck all the way from the first spot to that place about 30 or 40 kilometres and you hadn't indicated to the Committee that you had any trouble with that vehicle. Why did you, at that crucial stage just before the shooting of Donnie Meyers, did you leave the scene to go and check the brakes? MR THUTHA There was no problem with the truck as such, it's just that it was the first time I had used a truck that had power brakes. When you're not used to such, when you step on the brakes it goes down and it gets stuck. I wanted to take note of such things. MR PRIOR Were you not interested to see what was going to happen to the white female? As you said, this was a "Boer", you couldn't care, you didn't care whether she was killed or not. MR THUTHA Besides that, in the army you have your own role that is stipulated just for you that you must look at, everything else goes through different channels. I could not go and put my nose that was not part of my role, I had to finish my role first. CHAIRPERSON But you had been - as I understand your evidence, you had been called to help move this girl away to where Thandekulo wanted her to go, is that not so? MR THUTHA Yes, I did say that because they couldn't, the one person couldn't take her over the fence, there had to be a second person. The one to pull down the bottom of the fence so that she could be put over the fence. There had to be a second person there. CHAIRPERSON And then you chose, on your own it seems from you evidence, to leave this girl and Thandekulo to go and look at the brakes of the van which you had had no problem with, is that so? MR THUTHA Before you stop the truck you had to pump, I did not do that initially. I noticed as to how exactly you use the brakes after a while and I had to look at that carefully. MR PRIOR It took two of you, yourself and Kulman to take, drag or pull or whatever you did there to get her from the truck to where Thandekulo had wanted her to be taken and you indicated that she had resisted. When you left her with Thandekulo, had she stopped resisting at that stage or was she continuing to resist? MR THUTHA Please repeat your question. MR PRIOR When you handed her over, you said she was standing - when you got her over the fence and handed her over to Thandekulo or left her with Thandekulo, had she stopped resisting? MR THUTHA It was not clear but I didn't take full note. I just want to say to you that perhaps she sensed that something was going to happen to her. She - I did not take particular note of what she was doing but she must have sensed that something was going to happen to her. MR PRIOR She was going to be killed surely, Thandekulo was standing with two firearms in his hands. MR LAX Sorry, with respect, he had one in his hand and one in his waistband. MR PRIOR I take your point Mr Chairman. He had one in his hand and one in his waistband, you had a homemade firearm, Kulman had a revolver in his hand, you dragged her or pushed her ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Kulman left his revolver in the vehicle. MR LAX Sorry, if I could just correct that. He's not sure ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON He doesn't know, he's not sure. MR PRIOR Right. This witness said earlier that he had his handgun with him, he was asked specifically. It's not an issue really. She was taken against her will over a fence into a forest obscured from the road, isn't it more correct that she must put even more resistance or more of a struggle knowing that she was going to be executed there? MR THUTHA That she resisted because she knew that she was going to be killed, I don't know. Maybe she did not want to walk. She did stand on her own feet without looking as if she's falling over. MR PRIOR You see, at the postmortem we discover that she was stabbed in the back, she was stabbed at least twice on the chest, she was stabbed on the front of the neck and once on the side of the neck, that's apart from the massive injury to her skull presumably caused by a gunshot to that area. She was also shot through the hand with an entry and an exit wound through her right hand ...[intervention] MR THUTHA I did not check any wounds, perhaps all that happened after I had left. I can't dispute that, however when I went back to the place with ...[end of tape] ...[inaudible] I did not know when all that happened. CHAIRPERSON Can you tell us - we will no doubt get it from the police but it might help if you could tell us now, how far was the body that you went back to, from the fence that you had taken her through? Can you estimate the distance? MR THUTHA It would be difficult to estimate because the one time I made an estimate about Thandekulo's car - this is why Botma comes here and holds on to what I estimated then, I don't want to estimate incorrectly. CHAIRPERSON Well would you like to go to the door of the hall under supervision, with you attorney and Mr Prior and point out to them if you can in front, what the distance was, could you do that? MR THUTHA I could do that but you must remember that it is a mere estimate. Even whilst I'm sitting here I can point. CHAIRPERSON Well can you point inside here or is it further away than that? MR THUTHA Perhaps it would be from where I'm sitting to the policeman that is standing by the door with the brown clothing over there. CHAIRPERSON 30 paces, thereabouts? MR PRIOR Yes, Mr Chairman. MR MBANDAZAYO It's almost the same as the first one. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. MR LAX Sorry, that was from the place where Thandekulo was, where you left the girl with him, to the fence? CHAIRPERSON What I asked you was, when you went back with the police you saw the body, and how far the body was from the fence that you took her through. Did you understand that question? MR THUTHA No, that is not how I understood the question. You see, when you move from where the body was, Donnie's body, there are bushes, shrubs, two - from Donnie to the fence - between the fence and Donnie it's difficult to see clearly because there were bushes. It was difficult to see what was happening where Donnie was because of these bushes. MR LAX So are you estimating it from the truck where you looked back from to the place where she was lying because you said you looked back from the truck and you saw that she had been shot. You saw her lying there you said earlier on in your evidence. MR THUTHA Are you saying that I said - please clarify. MR LAX Okay. You said much earlier in your evidence that you heard the shot, you then looked towards where that was and you could see that she had been shot. You could see her you said, you could see that she had been shot. CHAIRPERSON I don't recollect that, can I look at my notes? MR LAX Please do. MR THUTHA If I did say so then I was mistaken. MR PRIOR I think he said he saw a lot of blood and he saw stab wounds. ADV SANDI Is that the time when he goes back with the police to the scene? MR PRIOR That's correct, yes. MR LAX I'm talking about a different occasion. MR PRIOR I beg your pardon. MR LAX I'm talking about earlier this morning when you testified. My recollection was that he heard the shot when he was back at the truck and he looked back and he could see that she had been shot, that's what he said. ADV SANDI Personally, I don't recall that. MR LAX It's alright, the record will speak for itself. If I'm wrong, again I apologise. MR MBANDAZAYO The things Mr Chairman, I heard as Mr Lax heard it but I did not interpret it as if he actually saw her lying down but he indicated that he heard the shot and he looked and he could see that this person's being shot, that's how I interpreted it. Not necessarily that he saw her lying down but he knew that she is being shot. ADV SANDI Did he say he saw blood there? MR LAX No, no, no, he didn't say that. The impression I got from what was interpreted was that, when he heard the shot he was at the truck, he looked back towards the direction where the shot was and he saw that she'd been shot, that's what he said or some words to that effect. Anyway the record will speak for itself. Do you remember looking back when you heard the shot? MR THUTHA Yes, I do remember. MR LAX And what did you see when you looked back? MR THUTHA I could not see from where I was because I did say that there were bushes. I could then not see when I was by the truck. I started - I only saw exactly what had gone on when I'd come back with the police. MR LAX When you came back with the police and as you pointed out in this photograph where the body was, was the body in the same place where you had left her with Thandekulo? Was that the same place? MR THUTHA She had been moved from where she was before. You could even see when we went back the second time that she had been moved from one place to another, because of the blood. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. After the shots were fired, did Thandekulo come back to the truck? MR THUTHA Yes, he came back to hand over the gun that he had. MR PRIOR Hand you the firearm? MR THUTHA He asked ...[intervention] MR PRIOR Did he hand you a firearm? MR THUTHA Yes. MR PRIOR Did you notice blood on his hands when he did that or on any of his hands? MR THUTHA I did not look carefully, I can't say, I can't say. MR PRIOR Your co-applicant, Mr Kulman said yesterday he noticed blood on Thandekulo's hands and also something sharp in his hands ...[intervention] MR LAX He also noticed blood on his shirt he said. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. The question is, you were there, you took a firearm from him, if that was the case surely one would have expected you to see blood, he was standing obviously right in front of you. MR THUTHA I don't want to dispute that but this happened a long time ago, perhaps I've forgotten whether there was blood or not. I can't remember this specific point. MR PRIOR There's just two aspects I want to canvass with you. One is page 2 of the bundle, your application form ...[intervention] MR LAX Which bundle? MR PRIOR Sorry, bundle A. Paragraph 9(a) IV, you said: "On the 27th of August '93 in Umtata in Northcrest in the company of other cadres one, Thandekulo who is a commander arrived and ordered me to go with another cadre to fetch a truck which we found at Nxongora admin area" That instruction was given to you in Umtata and not on the way as you indicated in your evidence, is that so? MR THUTHA This evidence that is presented here is something that we said in Umtata. I did tell you however that some things we hid, some information we did not divulge, some we did. This we said falsely. MR LAX So this is false in your amnesty application before the Truth Commission, do I understand you correctly? Can you answer me? MR THUTHA Can I have a moment with my representative please? MR LAX No, just answer. CHAIRPERSON Just answer the question. MR LAX Sorry, we're asking you not to talk to your representative, please stop talking to him. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I'm not trying to come to his rescue but he's asking me whether it's what was written and I'm telling that is not the affidavit, it's the actual application form he made in jail. It's not the affidavit he was talking about. CHAIRPERSON What has been read to you is what appears in your application for amnesty and as I understand it you have now just said: "Well that is false". Will you please explain? MR THUTHA What exactly did I say is not true? My application for amnesty or a statement that I gave a long time ago? MR LAX: Mr Prior read to you a portion from your amnesty application which is the handwritten document which your lawyer has been showing you at page 2 and page 3. I see you're reading it at the moment. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, may I also point out that the Committee actually asked his legal representative to go through the application with him before he commenced his evidence. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, I confirm that Mr Chairman and I went through it with him, his application. MR LAX Please translate what he's saying. INTERPRETER It's not audible, what the applicant is saying is not audible. CHAIRPERSON Do you understand the question? That in this application you have said that your commander arrived at Northcrest Umtata and ordered you and another cadre to fetch a truck whereas in your evidence here you have said it was only on the way that you were told what the purpose of the exercise was. MR LAX Sorry, just to correct that, it wasn't while they were on the way per se, it was once they'd got - the second, the first applicant - he was told the first applicant would tell him what the nature of the operation was and the first applicant only told him that once they'd got out of the car. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman, yes, that was the impact of the question. MR THUTHA Can I speak? MR LAX Please. MR THUTHA There's a mistake here. First of all, when I wrote my form, my application for amnesty I don't who that person is who helped me write. I don't know if they wrote everything that I said. What I am saying or what is in the application it's the first time I see it now. I had little time to write this. Now I realise that there are things in my application form that I don't follow. This is difficult. MR LAX But you see your lawyer took you through it this morning, why didn't you say: "Wait, hang on, this is a mistake. Please draw the Committee's attention to the fact that this is completely wrong". You didn't say a word when he took you through it or maybe you said something to him but he certainly hasn't said anything to us, I don't know. Did you say something to him at that stage? MR THUTHA I understand all that you're saying. The representative asked me if I know what I said and he then said I mustn't forget what I had said. He did read my application. He didn't read the whole application form, he just read certain things. He did this within a very short span of time. There was not enough time to go through the application. Now I get confused because the person who wrote the form for me is not here and I don't know where he is. MR LAX Did the person who wrote the form fill it in as you were speaking to him? MR THUTHA The person was writing saying that he was from my co-accused. He sometimes just wrote ahead of me, he just wanted me to remind him here and there. He did not even read it afterwards for me and explain to me so that I understand that he'd written it properly, he just - he came to the prison and said he was rushing and he left. It is the first time yesterday to come across these things that I have apparently said. The time was not enough yesterday and today, to go through it. This matter about me being told in Umtata that I was going to take a truck is not true, I was told when the truck was already in view at that place, that we were going to take the truck. MR LAX Yes, I hear you. This person who came to the prison, who was he or she? MR THUTHA They call him Mbanjwa. MR LAX Yes, he's a lawyer isn't he? MR THUTHA Yes, he said he was a lawyer. Nobody ...[intervention] INTERPRETER Could the speaker wait for the interpretation please. MR THUTHA Perhaps Mr Mbandazayo can explain if he knows him. MR LAX We've heard about him already Mr Thutha, he filled other people's application in as well that we've heard of during our sessions here. Proceed Mr Prior, and let's just leave it at that. MR PRIOR Ja, I'm just trying to wind up. When Mr Meyers alighted as you say from the vehicle he was facing you, is that correct? And you shot him from a very close range in the stomach or the abdomen. My question is - sorry, let me just add another thing to that, when he was lying on the ground you could see he was unarmed, so could you not have threatened him with the firearm because your purpose was to take him with you? MR THUTHA Threaten him after I'd shot ...[intervention] MR PRIOR No, no, no, before you shot him. You see you're telling the Committee that what was in your mind is that you thought he was going for a firearm but on your own evidence there was no firearm anywhere near him, so what I'm saying to you is that he was trying to get out or getting out of the vehicle, why did you not simply tell him: "put your hands up" or "if you move I'm going to shoot you", something like that? In other words threaten him with a firearm because your objective was to take him with you, not to kill him, is that right? MR THUTHA I did not have much knowledge about him. Another thing, I did not want him to see me with a gun because the people that were there to buy mild were not armed. I was amongst people as well, I took cover amongst the people so that if he started to shoot he would not hit me but the other people. I just thought that where he was standing and the direction he was looking he could see me particularly. MR PRIOR Did you shoot him out of fear that he might shoot you first? MR THUTHA No, that was not the only reason. First of all, I could not see my comrade after the sound, the bullet sound. I did not know where he was and I realised that - I thought that perhaps he was being shot at. ...[intervention] MR PRIOR Sorry, I don't want to interrupt you. Did you shoot him because of you believed, that maybe he had shot your colleague and he was now about to shoot you or injure you? You shot him in those circumstances and believing that, that he may - he was posing or possibly posing a threat to you and that's why you shot him? MR THUTHA There were two reasons why I shot him, that is one of the reasons. I thought that I should be careful as well because he could shoot. As he was moving, I did not know what action he was going to take with his arm in the truck. CHAIRPERSON But you have described in some detail what he was doing with his arm in the truck and it does not sound to me at all like someone who is picking up a gun. You have said: "He was pulling something out, it was very heavy", can you remember telling us that? MR THUTHA Yes, I do remember that. MR PRIOR For all you knew he could have been trying to pull his daughter out because that was after the first shot. MR PRIOR Yes, alright, that's for argument. I won't pursue that, it really calls for speculation. CHAIRPERSON But he came out of the truck, was standing facing you with no weapon in his hands, is that correct? MR THUTHA When he was facing towards me I could only see one hand, the other one I could not see. I can't say he didn't have anything in his hand then, in any of his hands. CHAIRPERSON And you were amongst a crowd of people, customers of his who were there buying milk, was that the position? MR THUTHA Yes, that is the position. CHAIRPERSON So you were in no danger yourself at that time? You could have run away with the other customers. MR THUTHA The order that I was given did not allow me to run away with the people. CHAIRPERSON No, the order you were given was to capture this man and take him, which you ignored didn't you? MR THUTHA That we must carefully at him to see if there is any danger, that was part of the order. We could not wait ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON And you didn't see any danger? MR THUTHA What do you mean, I didn't see any danger because I'd heard a sound, a bullet sound. CHAIRPERSON And the evidence as I recollected of your co-accused was that after he got out of the truck he ran towards the back of the truck, so you would have seen him quite clearly away from the door? MR THUTHA When he was trying to get away from the truck he, it is because of the bullet, he did not voluntarily just try to get away. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. Finally, I think in fairness to this witness I must put what the witnesses Ndoda and Manjibani will say. There were the two employees who were serving the people milk from the back of the truck, that they were on the back of the vehicle - that is the truck where the milk canisters were, Mr Meyers was outside the vehicles towards the rear of the truck and he was telling the people to go to the passenger side and pay Donnie who was seated in the truck and who was collecting the money for the milk which they purchased. It was in that position that the first shot was fired, Mr Meyers ran around to the driver's side, that is away from the gunmen who shot on the passenger's side, and it was at that stage you shot him from the front. In other words you were at that stage at the front of the vehicle. So what I'm putting to you is, what you have told us here is not correct on their version and on the information that I have. Is that not how it happened? MR THUTHA No, that is not how it happened. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Only one point Mr Chairman. Can you again tell the Committee whether when you took Donnie out of the truck, did you see any blood from her? CHAIRPERSON Hasn't he told us repeatedly that he didn't take her out of the truck? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, what I'm trying to get at is that when assisted in taking her through the stiles, whether he did see any blood on her. MR THUTHA Are you asking me a question? Yes, I did see red but they put lipstick on, I didn't really take cognisance at that time as to what exactly what it was. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you. Mr Chairman, just on a point - for clarity on the point which was raised regarding the paragraph 9 IV. Mr Chairman, just for the record, I went through with the applicant and when he explained to me I didn't see any contradiction then, the way he explained to me. CHAIRPERSON That he told you a different version to what he told us? MR MBANDAZAYO That's it Mr Chairman, that's why I'm putting it on record that I thought that he will be able to answer it. When I asked him, I went through this with him, he gave me a convincing answer which was satisfactory. In fact Mr Chairman, though he did not know the target, he knew what he was going to go and do there, that he was going for something though he did not know the place and the persons. So I didn't see any contradiction Mr Chairman, that's why I left it. I thought that he will be able to answer it when he was questioned about it. Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Any further witnesses? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, no further witness except the one which will be called which will be encompassing almost all the others. No other witness except the applicants at this stage Mr Chairman, thank you. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman, I intend to call at this stage John Manjibani, an eye witness. Yes, we're going to call the victim at the end, she wasn't on the scene. I want to deal with all the evidence relating to the incident. CHAIRPERSON Could he come back, I want to ask him. Could I just clarify one thing? I don't know if my fellow Committee members wish to ask anything. Am I ...[intervention] MR LAX Hello, sorry, can you try and pay attention, we're trying to ask you a question? CHAIRPERSON Do I understand correctly that his evidence was that he didn't know this area, he wasn't from this area, he didn't know it? MR THUTHA Which area specifically? MR LAX The area where this thing happened. CHAIRPERSON And the Bashe River. MR LAX Bridge and all that. MR THUTHA No, I did not know the place specifically but my co-accused did mention it. However, the reason why I knew which place they were talking about is because when Thandekulo came with his car he signalled to me that I would follow him to the place to which he was going. ADV SANDI You were from the Umtata area, not this particular area? MR THUTHA I did not stay in that particular area, I did not know that specific area well. MR LAX Well you see - just to tell you this, your co-applicant said you knew the area. He said you knew exactly where you were going. MR THUTHA My co-accused, it was true that I knew the way that when I'm going this direction this is the place I'm going to. If I take another direction I'm going to such and such a place. I knew the names of the villages but not the villages themselves as such. MR LAX Just one absolute last question. Where was your - when you looked, after you heard the first shot you said you went and peeked round on the lefthand side of the truck, you never saw your co-applicant and that led you to think he might have been shot, do you remember that? MR THUTHA Yes, I do remember. MR LAX Well when you ran round the other side, did you see him at all? MR THUTHA I did not see him, that's when I saw Mike Meyers, the other side trying to get out of the truck, getting out of the truck. MR LAX And then you shot him, correct? MR THUTHA Correct. MR LAX Did you see your co-accused at least your co-applicant at that stage, on the righthand side of the vehicle? MR THUTHA I went to Mike Meyers to see whether he's got a weapon and then I went to the truck. I then found my co-accused in the truck with this person, Donnie Meyers. Until then or at that point I did not know whether Donnie Meyers was male or female. MR LAX You didn't even know she was there until then? MR THUTHA I did not know who was in the truck, I just knew that there's a white, a short b(?), a white person in the truck. MR LAX The white person you thought was in the truck was Mike Meyers, you didn't even know Donnie was there, you didn't even see her up until that point and when Mike Meyers got out of the truck you didn't know anyone else was in the truck, so how can you say you knew there was a white person in the truck? MR THUTHA When I got into the truck there was a white person, Donnie Meyers and my co-accused. That was the first time I saw them after the bang. CHAIRPERSON Alright, carry on. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I think the applicant wanted to say something to the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR THUTHA First of all I would like you to take note of the police that beat me up. Secondly, where I am my head at the prison do not want me to make a case of this because ...[intervention] INTERPRETER Could the speaker slow down please? MR THUTHA I need help. I do want to charge these police, I do want to report them. There are things that I still cannot do that I would normally be able to do had they not beaten me up. CHAIRPERSON I appreciate your concern but at the moment you have an experienced attorney acting for you and I would suggest you talk to him and he will give you the name of the relevant authority before whom you can lay your complaint and I have no doubt will assist you in doing so. And certainly we as a Committee would request that his instructions be extended to cover that. MR THUTHA This is the second time I've said this to this attorney, I can't see how he can help me because I cannot pay him. He deals with you according to his fees, that's the problem. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I wouldn't like to get into this but I want to make it clear that I know about his complaint which was that he wanted to see a doctor when he was still here at East London prison. That's the only thing I knew, that he wanted to see a doctor because he's not getting the proper medical attention and I talked to the head of the prison then when he was still here. The question regarding laying of charges, this is the first time Mr Chairman, to be honest, that I hear about that. But I know about the medical problem and I talked to the head of the prison in East London when he was still here and he promised me that he will look into that and after that I didn't hear anything about the question of laying of charges. Definitely Mr Chairman, I am at sea. ADV SANDI Anyway we shall take it that you will follow up the matter between yourself and your client. MR MBANDAZAYO Now that I've heard about it Mr Chairman, definitely I will take the matter up, thank you. MR PRIOR May I be permitted now to call the witness, John Manjibani? Thank you Mr Thutha, you can return to your place. MR THUTHA Please I want to clarify this because this is not clear to me as you're talking. I did mention this to the attorney and he advised me to write to the Attorney General. I said that that will be difficult whilst I am in jail. It is clear that you are not advising me right now, you deal with money which I don't have but I do want to lay charges about these policemen that beat me up. There is no-one who can help me. I've written to the Human Rights Committee, there has been no response or they say that I must get my own attorney. I've told the head, the authorities in the prison who says the same thing, that I must get a representative. This is the representative that told me that I must write to the Attorney General. I don't know how I'm supposed to do that whilst I am in jail. CHAIRPERSON Well your attorney has said that he will now consult with you, discuss this matter with you and advise you. You can apply for legal aid to cover the fees, you are not necessarily having to pay for them yourself, if you have a valid claim where there's civil action against them, which you say you have. I'm quite sure your attorney will now ...[intervention] MR THUTHA Do you know when last I saw this attorney since 1995 as I am here? CHAIRPERSON We are not here to consider your complaints about your attorney I'm afraid. If you would like us to ask someone else to call on you in prison we can do so but we are not, we have no powers to take any action ourselves in that regard. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, ...[intervention] MR THUTHA Could you please then send a representative that can help me to prison? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I just want to clear this point, so maybe I want to put it to rest. Mr Chairman, I met the applicant whilst I was moving around making sure that everybody applied. When I arrived he had already applied for amnesty and he told me about his problem, that's the problem of not getting medical treatment not about laying charges and I talked to the head of the prison and thereafter I did not go there. I was going there whenever there was a complication from the TRC regarding their applications, nothing else. And I knew that he was transferred to Umtata when I received further correspondence regarding this matter and it's difficult for me. So if he wants me to pursue the question now I would have advised him to go to legal aid, I wouldn't have any problem about that, I would have taken the case. I wouldn't have said he must go to the Attorney General. CHAIRPERSON Will you now advise him, after the hearing has adjourned? MR MBANDAZAYO Definitely Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Can you please go back to your seat now Mr Thutha. MR THUTHA So what must I do now? CHAIRPERSON You must consult with your attorney after this hearing has adjourned. Will you now go back to your seat? MR THUTHA What if he tells me what he told me before? WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Prior, your witness. MR PRIOR Thank you. Mr John Manjibani? MR LAX Can you hear us Mr Manjibani? EXPLANATIONS ON USE OF CHANNELS MR MANJIBANI Yes, I hear you. MR LAX What is your full name for the record? MR MBANDAZAYO Can I read it for the record please Mr Chairman? The full names are: Temegane John Manjibani Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI (sworn states) MR PRIOR Mr Manjibani, how old are you? MR MANJIBANI I'm 59 years old. EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR Is it correct that during August of 1993 you were employed by Mr Meyers on his farm in the Elliot area? MR MANJIBANI Not in the farm, I was in town. He had a farm but he would collect me from town. He would collect me from town when he was going to sell milk in the farms and we would go to transkei to sell milk and he would drop me in town and then he would move to his farm. MR PRIOR And how long - at the time of the shooting which occurred on the 27th of August, how long had you been in his employ? MR MANJIBANI I think it was three months then. MR PRIOR Well tell the Committee what you remember of the day when Mr Meyers was shot and the truck, that is the Canter truck was taken from the place from the place where he was selling milk. Tell the Committee in your own words what you remember. MR MANJIBANI I would like to explain like this. We went to these villages but I don't remember the names, it's when you go to Biki on your way to Adudja across the bridge. He said to me the people around that area knew him. I worked for him three months then ...[intervention] MR LAX Could you just slow down a bit, the interpreters find it quite hard if you go very fast. MR MANJIBANI When he stopped the truck next to the road I could estimate that is was next to the gate. a distance from here to the gate. It was next to the road. He stopped there and the people, a lot of people came and I could see that they knew him. They had containers with them, some had 25 litre containers and there were a lot of people there. MR PRIOR In the three months that you had in his employ, how many times had you been to that area or to that place which you now mentioned? MR MANJIBANI That was the second time because we would go to Iduja, that was the second time for us to stop in that area, the area of the incident. MR PRIOR Can you assist us by saying or telling us what sort of, when last you were there in relation to that period, was it weeks or months or what, days? MR MANJIBANI I don't remember clearly whether it was weeks or days. MR PRIOR Alright, please proceed. MR MANJIBANI While we were stopping there as the customers were buying mild they wanted mild and then I was measuring milk, Mike was next to the other men, I was in the truck, they would give me the containers and one man would give the customers ...[intervention] MR PRIOR Sorry, where was Mr Meyers while you were proportioning the milk? MR MANJIBANI He was standing next, at the back of the truck. MR PRIOR Where was Donnie? MR MANJIBANI Donnie was in the front inside the truck on the left side of the truck, she was sitting there. MR PRIOR And what was her function, what was she doing? MR MANJIBANI She was taking money from people and giving them change. MR PRIOR Please continue. MR MANJIBANI After that two men came, they said that you are milking in Cowa. I didn't take a notice of that they came there to buy milk, I thought that they were with their wives or children. They asked sour milk and this man said there was no sour milk anymore. After that they went to the left side. I was busy counting the litres, I didn't watch what anyone else was doing because I was busy concentrating on the measurements of the litres. I head a gunshot on the front of the truck but there were a lot of people there, I didn't know what was happening, whether it was a sjambock or what. I heard a sound in the front of the truck in Donnie. Her father was there behind and her father went to the driving side, Mike. This man went around to the left side and after doing that he went to the driving side. Before Meyers could even open the door, this man shot at him. I heard when he cried and I then I heard a bang or a sound and he then fell down. I then ran away from the truck. We were running away, we did not know where we were going. I ran, I don't know where but I decided to come back because I did not know people there. When I was coming back I could see the lorry or the truck moving. I saw Meyers lying down. I then decided to go to him because this had happened, the lorry or the truck had been gone. He just said to me: "John, I'm dying". After that the customers were running. Luckily a van, a police van came with two police and the people told about the incident and the police came to the scene, we then met with the police. MR PRIOR Is it correct that you went with the police van and Mr Meyers to the All Saints Hospital? MR MANJIBANI Certainly. MR PRIOR Sorry, I don't want to stop you but you don't need to go further than that for our purposes here today. MR MANJIBANI Yes, Sir. MR PRIOR I don't particularly want to cut him short but for our purposes I don't need him to tell us about what happened at the hospital and what happened when he went to Umtata and Elliot and all that, it's a fairly long story Mr Manjibani and it doesn't have any relevance to the issue here. Mr Manjibani, thank you. I just want you to maybe answer one or two question. You say Mr Meyers tried to open the door of the vehicle when he was shot, you said he didn't even have a chance to open the door? MR MANJIBANI Yes, because he was already coming, the other man was already coming towards him pointing a gun at him. He hit him and he fell, he hit him with a bullet and he fell and he hit him the second time. This is when we leapt from the truck and ran away. Is there something else Sir? MR PRIOR Thank you, that is the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR ADV SANDI Are you saying when he was shot the door was closed? MR MANJIBANI He had not opened it yet. This man went towards the front, do you hear me? As the truck was faced towards the front, on the righthand side the driver, they started with the girl on the left and as the father was running towards the front, I don't know whether he had a gun or not, then this man went towards the front so that this person does not go to the door. He was pointing a gun at him and then he shot at him and again but then we had dispersed and we were running away. We had dispersed, it is when turned back and looked backwards that we saw that the truck was driving off. He then said to me: "I am dying now", do you understand me? ADV SANDI I do understand you but I just want to be clear in my mind. You mean to say that he did not even begin to try to open the door, the door was not even half open when he was shot? MR MANJIBANI Not at all. ADV SANDI Was the window of this particular door open? MR MANJIBANI That I did not take note of but he was not even close to the window. ADV SANDI Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOTMA Mr Manjibani, when you saw the truck leaving, did you see any other bakkie following that truck? MR MANJIBANI A van driving from where we were or when the truck was driving off? What are you saying Sir? MR BOTMA The truck, when the truck left after the shooting, did any van come from the tar road side and then following the truck? MS GCABASHE Before the police came? MR MANJIBANI No, I did not see a van. I can't say I saw a van. In any case I was busy at the time. Even before I was busy with the milk. MR BOTMA I'm talking about after the shooting when you saw the truck driving off, did you see a van, a Toyota van coming from side of the tar road and going past you on that spot on that road? MR MANJIBANI No, I did not see a car. The only van I saw is the police van. This is the van that we put Mr Meyers in and we left with him. That van was from the direction of Umtata, a police van. I did not see any other van. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Manjibani, am I correct to say that you were inside the truck when these two men approached you? MS GCABASHE You really mean at the back rather than inside Mr Mbandazayo or? MR MBANDAZAYO Correct Mr Chairman, at the back of the truck. MR MANJIBANI What is the question? MR MBANDAZAYO You were at the back of the truck selling milk. MR MANJIBANI Correct. MR MBANDAZAYO When you are at the back of the truck are you able to see what is happening in front? MR MANJIBANI I can't see. I am the one who was measuring the milk, I was focused on what I was doing. I could not really look at any other thing at the side. They just tell me: "Here, put so many litres, there put so many litres", I was just focusing on the milk. MR MBANDAZAYO So when you heard the first shot you continued after the first shot, you poured milk in, is that correct? MR MANJIBANI That is the time I also was trying to jump from the truck. The owner of the car was then trying to go towards the front and then this other man was already pointing a gun at him, going towards the front. He then hit him the first tim and then the second time. This is when we started running away, dispersing. That is how it happened. MR MBANDAZAYO What I'm trying to get at Mr Manjibani is that whether you saw the person who was shooting in front, did you see him? MS GCABASHE Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, if you could just be clear. The person was shooting in front, on this version two people shot from the front, can you explain which shot you are referring to? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, unless I've got it wrongly, what I gathered is that the same person who shot Donnie is the person who also ran in front and shot Mr Meyers. I may have got it wrong Mr Chairman. MS GCABASHE As I recall the evidence, two people went around the left, not one. MR LAX That's correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. Let me then rephrase my question. Did you see, after these two men said that you are milking in Elliot, did you see them thereafter? Did you see what did they do thereafter? MR MANJIBANI What they did is that the one was left behind, one went to Donnie's side, the one man. He is the one who caused the bang. Then the other one went to the right side to make sure that Meyers doesn't take anything, he then shot at Meyers. I saw all this with my own two eyes. MR MBANDAZAYO Let me get this clear Mr Manjibani, you said the other one was at the back, the other one was at the front, the other one, the one who approached Mr Meyers is the one who was left behind, the other man. MR MANJIBANI It is the one that was left from behind, the other one was in a different position altogether but two men arrived. He could, the one could say: "go the other side and we must do what we came here to do". There were two of them. MS GCABASHE Mr Manjibani, just to assist us, two men approached, you are now saying one remained at the back, one went to the front, a shot was fired, the second one moved, did he go left or did he go right? Can you just clarify that for me. I had understood you to say the other one went left as well but I'm not so sure now. MR MANJIBANI I did not say anything about the second one, please listen carefully, when they arrived there were two of them, the one went towards the front and shot. I realised that he was shooting the child, then this one went towards the right where he must have known that there must have been a weapon. He then shot him before he got to the door, he then shot him again. This is when we ran away. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Manjibani, am I correct to say that you did not see the person who was shooting the first shot? Am I correct? MR MANJIBANI It would be the same as if I didn't see him but I could never identify him, even if you'd put them here in front of me now. Are you listening to me? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, I'm getting you, I'm not saying you know those people, I am saying that you did not see them when they were pulling the trigger, that is what I'm trying to get at. CHAIRPERSON Well that's not the question you put to him, the question you put was: "you didn't see him", where he has said the two men came at the back of the truck, one went round and then he heard the shot. I think you should make it clear that you're talking about the time the shot was fired. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. What I'm saying is that you did not see the man who went up front, to the front. You did not see him pulling the trigger, you only heard the shot, am I correct? MR MANJIBANI I did not see him shooting but it is him who cause that because when he was on the passenger side I heard his shot and then he did the same to Meyers. Who then shot? Who then shot, when you think in your own mind. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Manjibani, I thought that I'm following you now, now you are saying that the same person ...[intervention] MR MANJIBANI I'm not scared to tell the truth. You are here to represent your people, you're going to speak up for them. Even if you want me to twist this thing around, you are their lawyer isn't it? However, I'm not a lawyer, I'm here and I'm telling you what I saw with my eyes, that is all. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay. Then I ...[intervention] MR MANJIBANI You are giving me problems. Do you know where I'm from? I'm here from a long distance, I - it is four towns that I passed, I drove ...[intervention] MR LAX Mr Manjibani, please just listen carefully. I know you may be getting a little bit frustrated and feel like you're being asked questions and you're not sure, that is how this process works. So, please, Mr Mbandazayo's ...[intervention] Now please listen to me. Mr Mbandazayo's about to ask you questions and we would like you to try and answer them without getting frustrated. MR MANJIBANI Certainly I will answer the questions, what you are saying is true. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman, I'll pass that one. You have heard the applicant saying to this Committee that Mr Meyers was in the front, he was not at the back. He was in the front when all this started ...[intervention] MR LAX Sorry, I think you'd better make that clear to him, he was inside the car in the driver's seat. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chair. MR MANJIBANI I hear him saying all that he is saying, there is no such, there is no such. It is written there that you must tell the truth, in the emblem, that is the truth that I'm telling here. MR MBANDAZAYO Sorry, I'm not disputing that you are not telling the truth but I wanted to get clear - I was not there also myself so we want to know, all of us, what actually happened in that place. MR MANJIBANI I'm not fighting with you, I'm explaining to you what I'm here about. I'm not saying I'm speaking up for that white man. If it was that white man that shot I would say that it's the white man that shot, I wouldn't lie about that. MR LAX It might just help if people in the audience didn't laugh. It can be quite humiliating for a witness to be laughed at. MR MANJIBANI It's true please, they mustn't laugh. MR MBANDAZAYO My last question. I understand you were shocked after this whole incident, am I that correct? MR MANJIBANI Yes, I was shocked. INTERPRETER Could the witness please repeat the last statement? MR MANJIBANI About me being shocked, yes, I was in shock because I could have died as well. I was absolutely shocked and a part of me did die because I never thought such a thing could happen or I did not expect it to happen. I was just there to help with the milk and people were happy to be receiving the milk but unfortunately disaster was about to strike. MR MBANDAZAYO And as a result of that shock, is it possible that you did not notice some of the things that happened thereafter because you were still shocked? MR MANJIBANI Certainly, but I don't know if there is something beyond that the truck then drove off. We then tried to take Meyers and put him in that van for him to get help and we went home. MR MBANDAZAYO It may happen that during the time of your shock you did not see other cars which were, any other car which was around there in the village? MR MANJIBANI That is possible, what you're saying is substantial. MR LAX Isn't you're client's version: "the car could not be seen from the truck"? MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman, the witness has already answered my question. I have no further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Will you look at that photograph please? MR MANJIBANI Is this our truck? Whose truck is this? CHAIRPERSON Is that your truck and is somebody standing on the back of the truck as you were? MR MANJIBANI Who is standing here? CHAIRPERSON It doesn't really matter, it's just somebody is standing on the back. For the sake of the record, the photograph I have shown the witness is the original coloured version of the photograph 1 in bundle B and it makes it clear I think, that you can see quite well from the top of the truck on all sides except directly forward. I don't know if this should go in as an exhibit. MR PRIOR It may go in as an exhibit. MR MANJIBANI Are you asking me? CHAIRPERSON No, no. MR MANJIBANI Alright. MS GCABASHE Mr Manjibani, you had been working for Mike Meyers for three months you have said. MR MANJIBANI Yes. MS GCABASHE Just estimate how many trips you had taken with him in this three months, not to this place but just the trips you had taken and just estimate. MR MANJIBANI That distance, the route that we used? MS GCABASHE Not that particular one but leaving Nxobo to go to Umtata to deliver milk and go back. MR MANJIBANI Within a week we would travel each day, sometimes we would go to Idugua, Bhazia, do you understand? Those are all the places that we'd go to. Each and every day we'd move from place to place. MS GCABASHE Monday to Friday? MR MANJIBANI Yes. MS GCABASHE Now the only other area, and I know I'm repeating this question but I am a little confused about it this. Just take it very slowly so that at least I can understand where these two men were. Now you were on top of the truck you say, Mr Meyers was next to you along with your other colleague and they were working with you at the back? MR MANJIBANI Yes. MS GCABASHE These two men approached, one went to the front and shot rang out? MR MANJIBANI Yes. MS GCABASHE The second one moved to the right at this point? MR MANJIBANI Yes. MS GCABASHE From your observation Mr Meyers tried to get to his door but he was shot before he could open his door? MR MANJIBANI Yes. MS GCABASHE Now my only confusion is this, did the person who shot him shoot him from the back, that is from where you were around the back from the righthand side or from the front of the truck, the head? The person who shot him, do you know if he shot him from the tail where you were, who shot Meyers, or from the front from the headlight side. From which side did he shoot? MR MANJIBANI From the side, the righthand side. He came from the righthand side towards the front. Are you listening carefully Ma'am? MS GCABASHE Yes. MR MANJIBANI He then went towards the front, towards the door, Meyers was on that side from the back of the truck also going towards the front. Are you listening to me, please respond? MS GCABASHE Yes, I'm listening. MR MANJIBANI Perhaps you can't understand me that's why I need your response. They then were coming towards each other. This man then took out his weapon before they got to the door of the truck. This was before Meyers could open the door, this is when Meyers got shot. MS GCABASHE So would I be correct to say that the person who shot the first time, who shot Donnie Meyers, went around the front and then shot Mike Meyers as he tried to move backwards? MR MANJIBANI Yes, you've got it now, that's how it goes Ma'am. MS GCABASHE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON What did the person who was at the back of the truck do? MR MANJIBANI The man I was working with? CHAIRPERSON No, the other stranger who came. MR MANJIBANI I did not see him at all, maybe he was position wherever he was positioned. CHAIRPERSON So it was only one person who did all the shooting, who moved round the truck? MR MANJIBANI The same person who was using a gun, is the same man who shot both people. CHAIRPERSON Can you tell me what sort of gun, what did the gun look like? MR MANJIBANI I wouldn't know how the gun was but if you found a gun with him, it's the very same gun that he must have used. MR LAX I'm just a little bit puzzled. You said the one person who was standing at the back went round the back, he took out a gun you said. Now at that stage I thought you were talking ...[intervention] MR MANJIBANI Where the girl was sitting, where he was going to shoot. We heard that it was a gunshot. MR LAX So you didn't actually see him taking out the gun, you just heard the shot? MR MANJIBANI Yes, I just heard the shot. MR LAX You see, I thought that after you heard the shot you looked up, you saw the person standing at the back moving round the back of the truck towards the righthand side, I thought you said that you saw him take out a gun and approach Meyers who was at that time already at the door. That's what I thought I heard you say. MR MANJIBANI No, Sir, you're mistaken. He went to Meyers after he had shot. Everybody was scared by then, nobody was brave enough to look. We heard that that was a shot. We had to run because he was using a gun. ADV SANDI Just one question from me. Mr Manjibani, during the time you were working for Mr Meyers, did you get to know what his political affiliation was? MR MANJIBANI No, I did not know. I did not know what his political affiliation was. I just heard here that he was a member of the AWB. ADV SANDI Where did you hear that he was a member of the AWB? MR MANJIBANI From the man that was talking here. ADV SANDI You heard that for the first time? MR MANJIBANI For the first time. I was working with him, I didn't ask him which political party he belonged to. We just worked together, he dropped me here and took me there, we were working together. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may go. WITNESS EXCUSED MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman, I call Mr Fana Ndoda. INTERPRETER Is it possible for the interpreters to have a five minute break please? CHAIRPERSON Very well, five minutes. MR LAX We're going to take a short five minute break just to give the interpreters a rest. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR PRIOR The witness is Fana Ndoda Mr Chairman. FANA NDODA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR Mr Ndoda, is it correct that during August of 1993 and in particular on the day that Mr Meyers was shot, you were in his employ, is that correct? MR NDODA Yes. MR PRIOR Can you tell the Committee what had happened on the day he was shot, that is the 27th of August 1993, in your own words please? MR NDODA We were in the village on a Friday ...[intervention] MR PRIOR Can you remember what village that was? MR NDODA Yes. MR PRIOR Please tell us. MR NDODA Xhonguga. MR PRIOR Please continue. MR NDODA I had been working there for five days only. MR PRIOR Were you working with Mr Manjibani on that particular day? MR NDODA Yes. MR PRIOR Is it correct it's common cause that you were supplying or selling milk to the local population there? They were coming with containers and milk was being dispensed from the back of the vehicle, the truck, is that right? MR NDODA Yes. MR PRIOR Were you on the back of the truck or were you on the roadway? MR NDODA Yes, I was at the back of the truck. MR PRIOR Where was Mr Meyers when milk was being dispensed to the people? Where was he positioned? MR NDODA He was standing on the ground. MR PRIOR To the front or to the back of the vehicle. MR NDODA At the side. MR PRIOR Do you know what he was doing whilst you were dispensing milk? MR NDODA I think that he was taking the money from the people. MR PRIOR And Donnie Meyers, his daughter, where was she? MR NDODA She was in the truck. MR PRIOR Please tell the Committee what happened just prior to him being shot? Can you tell us in your own words please? MR NDODA I was working with John, there were a whole lot of people, we were selling milk to them. That man was measuring the milk and I was handing over the milk to the people. He measured and he'd hand over the milk to me and I would give the milk to the people, that is what we were doing. We were still working, as I've explained, we were busy at the back, we were not really looking at any particular person and then a man asked: "Is this milk or is it sour milk", I said: "It's milk"? I was not even looking at this person because we were working, we were busy, I just heard his voice. We carried on working with that man. After a moment I heard a noise, a bang. Let me put it this way, I thought it was cricket. In my ears it was like cricket. MR PRIOR Do you mean a cracker? A fire cracker? MR NDODA Cricket. MR MBANDAZAYO Fire cracker, they call it a cricket in Xhosa, it's a fire cracker. MR PRIOR Can you say where that noise came from, which side of the vehicle? MR NDODA From the front. MR PRIOR Are you able to say whether it was from the left or the righthand side or are you unable to say? MR NDODA From the left because the passenger was on the left side of the truck. MR PRIOR Yes, please continue. Did you see anyone there on the lefthand side of the vehicle? MR NDODA There were a lot of people there, there were a lot of people buying milk. MR PRIOR Alright. You heard this noise, this explosion, this shot, what was the next thing that you recall? MR NDODA We did not run away then. We sold the milk then a second bang. I then realised that there was trouble. I jumped and that man followed me, we ran away. We didn't even look who it was. MR PRIOR When you heard the second noise, where was Mr Meyers, do you know? MR NDODA He was standing there, he was not in the truck. MR PRIOR Yes, you said you ran away when you heard the second shot, what was the next thing that happened? MR NDODA Then that man ...[end of tape] ...[inaudible] a small distance. I went to a house, there were houses to the direction, it was the direction I was running. I just went into the house, into some house. I then peeped through the window, I saw the truck driving off or being started first, I then saw it driving away. I went back to the scene and when I got there Meyers was on the ground. We did not know what to do with him because he was big but fortunately he had not passed away yet, he was still breathing, he was struggling though. After a while I said to the old man, he said to the old man: "John I'm dying now". Now there was a whole lot of people from the village. Everybody was standing there looking at Mr Meyers. A bakkie then came with the registration XP from Umtata, from the direction of Umtata. There were two policemen ...[intervention] MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Ndoda. I understand that the police then took Mr Meyers and yourselves to the hospital and you went with, is that correct? We don't need to hear that for the purposes of this matter. Is that correct, you went to the hospital. MR NDODA Yes, we left him at Ohlsson's Hospital in Nxobu. MR PRIOR Alright, thank you. I just want to understand, from listening to your evidence you are unable to, sorry, you didn't see who was firing or who was making those noises that you heard, is that correct? MR NDODA No. MR PRIOR You never saw any firearms there, if I understand your evidence correctly? MR NDODA No, I did not see any firearm. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR MR LAX Sorry, Mr Botma, probably Mr Mbandazayo should go first followed by you, that would probably be a more appropriate way. We didn't do that the last time but perhaps we should do that correctly now. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Just one point Ndoda, when you heard the second shot, did you see where Mr Meyers was in that particular point in time? Can you be in any position to tell the Committee where he was at that particular point in time? MR NDODA He was at the side, the righthand side. MR MBANDAZAYO The applicants told this Committee that Mr Meyers was in the front, was inside the truck in the font seat on the driver's side and Donnie was on the passenger's side, what would you say to that? MR NDODA Was he in the front? To me it seemed as if he was at the side standing there. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay. Are you not sure where he was, maybe because the lapse of time because it happened a long time ago or maybe is there anything which prevents you from remembering? MR NDODA He was not inside, it is the child that was in the front. MR MBANDAZAYO Did you realise, when you were running, that he has been shot, when you ran away with your colleague? MR NDODA When we jumped from the truck I just thought I should look backwards, just a glance, I just saw blood and I knew that he had been shot. We then really started running away. MR MBANDAZAYO Just to follow up Mr Chairman, that's the last one. Where was he in relation to the truck then, when you saw that something red in his stomach at he put it, that is ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON He just said he saw blood, he didn't say it was on his stomach as I recollect. MR MBANDAZAYO He pointed. CHAIRPERSON Oh, he pointed. MR MBANDAZAYO He pointed Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Well, put that onto the record. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. The witness pointed to this area, the stomach Mr Chairman. Can you tell us Mr Ndoda, where was he in relation to the truck when you saw that he had blood? Or let me lead you, was he in the front of the truck or was he almost in the middle or almost at the back of the truck, can you remember? MR NDODA The truck was facing this way, this is my left, this is my right, he was on this side. INTERPRETER The interpreter cannot see as the witness is illustrating. MR NDODA What do you want to know, do you know whether he was at the front or backwards? He was around the middle of the truck. He was not at the front. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Mr Botma? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOTMA Just one aspect I want to get some clarity on. From the time the truck left till the time the police van arrived, did you see any other vehicles on that road, travelling on that road? MR NDODA No. MR BOTMA Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOTMA CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR PRIOR I have no re-examination thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, may both Mr Manjibani and Mr Ndoda be excused from further attendance? They come from the Elliot area, they've been here for four days, unless they're required? CHAIRPERSON I hope they've been accommodated suitably. MR PRIOR Yes, Mr Chairman, they have. Mr Chairman I notice - given the lateness of the hour, it's now five past four, it doesn't seem that we'll serve any purpose by calling a further witness who seems that it might take some time, Mr Pangele, the policeman who attended the scene where Donnie Meyers was found. He'll give evidence regarding the photographs and the observation of the scene. May I propose then that the matter be adjourned as we arranged or discussed in chambers? CHAIRPERSON When he comes to give evidence, will other photographs be made available? MR PRIOR Yes, I understand there are other photographs. The bundle that was put together was a selection simply for background for the Committee but I understand there were far more photographs than ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Well what we have got is simply photographs of the body. MR PRIOR Yes. CHAIRPERSON There are numerous other photographs, well about eight other photographs showing the scenery, views from various distances, which I think might be helpful for those of us who have not seen the scene, to ...[intervention] MR PRIOR Yes, Mr Chairman, I'll attend to that. I'll put a proper bundle together with ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Well I think you have been given the photographs and the file covers are with the photographs, it's all there for you. MR PRIOR Oh, that's lovely, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And we can get the necessary ...[intervention] MR PRIOR Mr Chairman yes, I've discussed the matter also with Mr Botma who will then lead Mrs Meyers' - sorry, let me not anticipate who he is going to call but I imagine that Mrs Meyers will be called but before that happens I have Mr Mphangele at least, as well as the district surgeon who conducted the postmortem report on Donnie. CHAIRPERSON It struck me also that it might be of some assistance at arriving at a clearer picture if evidence could be led perhaps from some of the locals as to how often Mr Meyers did visit this particular village to sell milk, whether it was a regular feature or whether it was something that only happened on a most irregular basis. MR PRIOR Yes, I did have a sort of statement of indication from the Mayor of Nxobo, Mr Titus at the time, who had expressed some interest in the matter but I'll certainly follow that up on behalf of the Committee Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. I would like to thank everybody who have waited so long and so patiently and regret that we have not been able to conclude the hearing of this application at this sitting. We now have to go on to work elsewhere and this matter will have to be adjourned until the 25th of May at the same place. I would also like to suggest - I don't know if everybody here is a victim or have merely come out of interest but if they are interested in coming to the adjourned hearing then they should give their names to Mr Prior now and he will tell them on what day it is likely to be held because we are adjourning it until the week commencing on the 25th. There are a number of other matters that have been adjourned to that week, so it may be that this matter does not get heard till Wednesday or something and to save you coming here on the Monday and having to wait day after day, if you give Mr Prior your name and address, contact address, he can give you notice. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON We will now adjourn, well we'll now conclude this hearing. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS UNTIL 25TH MAY 1998