amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-04-21 JOHANNESBURG 2 PITSO JOSEPH HLASA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54729&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/joburg/jbgamn.htm ON RESUMPTION PITSO JOSEPH HLASA (s.u.o.) INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. MR TLOUBATLA Do you confirm that the incidents for which you are applying for amnesty occurred in 1986, is that so? MR HLASA Yes, I confirm. MR TLOUBATLA In 1986, can you tell the Chairman what, basically what were you doing for your living? MR HLASA Well, at that time I think I was, I am now and I was the member of the Black Consciousness Movement. MR TLOUBATLA Did you hold any position, executive position or any position in the Black Consciousness Movement? MR HLASA No, not at that time. MR TLOUBATLA ...[inaudible] I want you to go through your statement and then I'll keep on interrupting you to explain some of the features that you have mentioned in your statement. MR HLASA Okay. This is the statement I think that the Truth Commission has with my name " Pitso Joseph Hlasa, the ID number 6405065431087 and the address then the address and the ...[indistinct] Application of Amnesty. Political organisation: AZAPO. Incident: Killing of SOSCO members, Soweto ...[indistinct] Congress Date and place: August 1986, Shawelo, CR Maroka. Account of events during the political violence between Black Consciousness Alliance and the ...[indistinct] Paragraph 1: The political conflict between AZAPO and United Democratic Front" ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Sorry to interrupt. Mr Tloubatla, I think we have read the statement, maybe you can deal with particular aspects that you want to highlight in the statement but before you do that - Mr Hlasa, the statement you are reading is the one which is dated, no date - Mr Tloubatla, that's the statement on pages 4 to 8 of the application? Is that it Mr Brink? MR BRINK Yes, that's the one I have Mr Chairman, pages 4,5,6,7 and 8 of the bundle. I've having a problem once again with the sound I'm sorry to say, serious problems. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hlasa, you signed this statement didn't you? ...[indistinct] I'm sorry. MR HLASA Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON Do you confirm that the contents of this statement is the truth, do you confirm the truth thereof? MR HLASA Yes, I do confirm. CHAIRPERSON And then maybe Mr Tloubatla you can just deal with particular aspects of it which you think need to be highlighted because we have actually read the statement. MR TLOUBATLA ...[inaudible] MACHINE SWITCHED OFF MR TLOUBATLA On page one of the statement you say that the political conflict between AZAPO and the UDF, United Democratic Front had reached unprecedented levels in 1986, is it possible for you to expand a little bit and tell us what was happening 1986 between AZAPO and the UDF? MR HLASA May I speak Sotho? In 1986 the violence between AZAPO and UDF in fact spread to Soweto. I would say this violence started in the Eastern Cape in 1985 or 1984, I'm not sure, when most of our members were killed by the ...[indistinct] camp. Some of them were accused of the murder of the CRADOCK 4, then it spread until it reached Transvaal. In my area in particular it was not rife. So what has happened, in the area like Dlamini in Soweto and Zola and Mundene, Naledi, those were the areas which were affected mainly. As members of the organisation we tried by all means possible that we should have various camps so that we should be able to defend ourselves. CHAIRPERSON I think we still have the same problem here. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF CHAIRPERSON Let's adjourn for a while, maybe somebody needs a short adjournment to look at something. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR MALAN ...[intervention] all applicants that will be giving evidence, to make sure that before you speak your microphone is on. We will arrange that two microphones can be open simultaneously. We found that the Chairman's microphone, when activated, deactivates ...[inaudible] MR BRINK ...[inaudible] MR MALAN EXPLAINS PROBLEMS EXPERIENCED WITH MICROPHONES CHAIRPERSON Mr Hlasa, try to keep to your language and not use too many languages interchangeable. MR MALAN May I Chair, please put a next request, that whatever we have not be read out to us again and when to the witness speaks, let him speak to the statement and not from the statement please. And if you can lead him on the salient issues we will appreciate it. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink, we have been made to understand that there are relatives of the deceased in here and that there are some issues which make them a little bit uncomfortable. I don't know whether your attention has been drawn to that. MR BRINK Yes, it has Mr Chairman. I've discussed the matter with a gentleman who's name I can't for the moment remember. If needs be I'll discuss it with him again. He indicated to me - I told him that I'll be representing the victims insofar was necessary and he gave me certain information, depending upon what comes out in the evidence of the applicants, what the victims attitudes would be towards the application. That is what I can tell you. I'm waiting from a telephone call from Lorraine. I may say that the - according to the information at my disposal, notices were sent to the various next of kin and victims and indeed a Mr Katle has been subpoenaed to be here and I understand he will be here shortly if he isn't already but the last time I enquired he wasn't here. But notices were sent out on the 2nd of April 1998 from Cape Town. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] already lost ...[inaudible] MACHINE SWITCHED OFF