amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-04-24 JOHANNESBURG 5 PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54733&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/joburg/jbgamn.htm ON RESUMPTION MR BRINK I have ascertained that it was Teboho Makhuza, he was one of the victims. PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MRS VAN DER WALT Chairperson the interpreters cannot hear, we will be using one microphone. Thank you Chairperson. Mr Kloppers you have applied for amnesty and it is embodied in volume 1 from page 1 to page 23 and Annexure on the page 117 to 126. You are aware of the content of your application forms as well as Annexures A and B. Do you confirm the content there of? MR KLOPPERS I confirm the contents. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Kloppers how old are you? MR KLOPPERS I am 45. MS VAN DER WALT Were you ever a member of the SAP or the Defence Force? MR KLOPPERS I was an information officer for the South African Defence Force. MS VAN DER WALT And for how long were you there? MR KLOPPERS For 10 years. MS VAN DER WALT Did you ever perform border duty? MR KLOPPERS I did border duty. MS VAN DER WALT For how long? MR KLOPPERS On 5 separate occasions I performed border duty. MS VAN DER WALT And time periods? MR KLOPPERS 3 months every time. MS VAN DER WALT And were you taught there in respect of the enemies of the Republic of South Africa? MR KLOPPERS We opposed the ANC/SACP Alliance at that time and also SWAPO who was involved in our struggle. MS VAN DER WALT And you became a member of the AWB? MR KLOPPERS That is correct in 1987. MS VAN DER WALT And were you an active member? MR KLOPPERS I was not an active member. At that point I was called a TV member. I became an active member later. MS VAN DER WALT What do you mean by TV member? MR KLOPPERS That I would wait for instructions and I became by my own choice. MS VAN DER WALT Why did you join the AWB? MR KLOPPERS From the very beginning at a meeting held by Eugene Terreblanche in the Town Hall in Randfontein he sounded convincing enough to me to associate with objectives which he set out there. Objectives such as a pure Akrikaner "volk," that we would have our own Volksfront just as in Bophutatswana which had its own independence. We would also achieve our own independence. MS VAN DER WALT Did you at that point belong to any political party? MR KLOPPERS I was a member of the Conservative Party and later also a member of the Volksfront. And naturally I was a member of the AWB which is not a political organisation but a para-military unit. MS VAN DER WALT You said that you were first a dormant member, when did you become actively involved? MR KLOPPERS I became actively involved in 1993. MS VAN DER WALT Why did you become active in that year? MR KLOPPERS After I had seen what was happening in South Africa that the National Party was granting a full take over to the ANC. And also had seen what had happened at the national summit with the Volksfront that they had burst through the doors and I decided that it was time to become personally actively involved so I could tell my children one day that I stood up for my country, my "volk," my fatherland. That was our motto. MS VAN DER WALT Yesterday an exhibit was submitted, Exhibit A it was phase 1 of the then commander officers' course of the AWB. Were you aware of this booklet? MR KLOPPERS I am fully aware of that booklet. It is not only a manual but it also comprised parts of the training structure which I presented as an academic officer. MS VAN DER WALT What was your rank? You said that you were an academic officer in 1993 in the AWB? MR KLOPPERS I started being a candidate officer. I moved quite quickly upwards and proved myself as a man who could be used in training because my work was involved with adult education. And that is why I was implemented as an academic officer for the West Rand. I was then promoted to Chief Commandant of Randfontein area and then I was promoted to a brigadier. MS VAN DER WALT As an academic officer, what were your duties? MR KLOPPERS As an academic officer I trained all the members of the then commando under my command and from other areas according to phase 1 that they would be familiar with it and that they would understand what was meant by an immanent revolution. MS VAN DER WALT This phase 1, yesterday one of the members stated that it was merely an information piece. MR KLOPPERS It was not only an information piece it was completely used as part of the training structure and I used it as such. MS VAN DER WALT Would it have embodied the objectives of the AWB ... mentioned in any way in this Phase 1? MR KLOPPERS Our objectives are clearly stated in Phase 1, it is on page 11, 12 and 13. CHAIRPERSON Sorry I think at some point the taking of photos should stop because I think they are about to detract the witness. MR KLOPPERS Thank you Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT You have said that the objectives are embodied on page 11, 12 and 13? MR KLOPPERS If I have it correctly. MS VAN DER WALT On page 17 of the document. MR KLOPPERS My copies are in my briefcase. MS VAN DER WALT He does have a copy. I am indicating Exhibit A, if you will look at page 17, page 15 has to do about the historic origin of the AWB and then on page 17 there is a revolution at hand. And then I would like to refer you to the second last line of the first paragraph underneath that heading. It says: "The AWB does not plan or desire revolution." It is in bold print. " But will not hesitate and accept a Black Communist regime. It is then a struggle until death." MR KLOPPERS That is one hundred percent. MS VAN DER WALT You have heard the testimony and I will lead you regarding the revolution which would originate but it goes further. "History has taught us that a revolution wastes its children. The AWB as a "volksbeweging" does not desire a revolution but if it is enforced upon it, it will with the help of God be the victor in the struggle. From the axles of the revolution the ideals of the "Boerevolk" will emerge. A "Boerevolkstaat" where in which the freedom ideal will be embodied." How do you reconcile this if you wish to testify that there was a revolution in 1993? MR KLOPPERS The revolution which originated began within the situation in Kempton Park along with the Volksfront with the take over phase of CODESA. We saw that the revolution was at hand because it was advertised to us as such from the platform by various generals among others our leader at that time, Eugene Terreblanche. And we reconciled ourselves with that. That is why I was of the view that the revolution had broken out. MS VAN DER WALT Did the AWB come to a decision then that the revolution was being enforced upon the "Boerevolk" and that it had to move over to that? MR KLOPPERS In terms of my discussions and meetings with General Jappie Oelofse I would have to admit that. It is correct Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT You have testified that you then became active and you were appointed as Chief Commandant of area 9. MR KLOPPERS I was later appointed as Chief Commandant of area 9, it was an area of approximately 4000 according to the computer printout. MS VAN DER WALT And the applicants in this case were they under your command? MR KLOPPERS All the applicants involved in this case comprised part of my top structure but were directly under the command of my second in command, Deon Martin. We acted purely in a military fashion according to the structures of rank the hierarchy was formed. Anything which was communicated through to anyone else was communicated by my commandant. MS VAN DER WALT During 1993 you said various meetings were held. Were meetings held where other political parties were involved which were not AWB members? MR KLOPPERS Yes, among others in 1993 I attended a meeting where General Constant Viljoen, I beg your pardon Ferdie Hartzenberg, I am not exactly certain of the other persons present at that meeting. Constant Viljoen identified with the AWB and that together we would rise as a mighty "Boerevolk." There were also members of the South African Defence Force who would see to the complete take over of the regime. MS VAN DER WALT What would Constant Viljoen's share have been in this struggle? MR KLOPPERS When the struggle would move to revolution Constant Viljoen and his generals would take over certain army bases camps and Ferdie Hartzenberg along with Yster and Staal as well as the Mine Workers Union would have brought about complete darkness in South Africa. The SABC, radio stations and so forth would also have been taken over. MS VAN DER WALT What was the objective of this action? MR KLOPPERS The objective there of was to take over South Africa completely. The objective itself was to create chaos and despair so that not one of these people would have thought of participating in the elections if there were ever to be an election. MS VAN DER WALT Why was the AWB and the other parties opposed to the elections? MR KLOPPERS We can only look at what is happening outside there today. It is exactly what we wanted to prevent. We did not desire this daily level of violence, car hi-jackings and the take over of the ANC/SACP Alliance. MS VAN DER WALT During 1993 there was a meeting in the Assembly Hotel in Pretoria. Are you aware of that? MR KLOPPERS Yes I myself was present. MS VAN DER WALT And what happened there? MR KLOPPERS Secret meetings were held where among others requests were made that all the members of the generals in staff arrive in civilian clothes. What the discussion itself involved I cannot answer because it was held in the greatest of secrecy. But the top figures such as Constant Viljoen and Mr Hartzenberg were aware as well as various other persons, names which I cannot provide because of the utter secrecy of the meetings. I was there to ensure the safety of General Jappie Oelofse. MS VAN DER WALT Did General Jappie Oelofse tell you that a meeting had taken place? MR KLOPPERS Yes he did filter through certain information. One of which was very clear was that the revolution was at hand and that I had to mobilise my men on twenty four hour assistance. A decision was also taken that just as the ANC had been allowed to look at the stockpiling places of the South African Defence Force the AWB had also been allowed to go and look at these places. MS VAN DER WALT There was also a meeting in Potchefstroom where the AWB was involved. Did you attend that meeting? MR KLOPPERS Yes that was the national summit which was held in Potchefstroom. Not all my men but some of them did attend that meeting. MS VAN DER WALT You yourself? MR KLOPPERS Yes I was there. MS VAN DER WALT And what transpired? MR KLOPPERS Constant Viljoen was the chief speaker there. He still walked hand in hand with the AWB at that point and he also stated that he would not allow the South African government to be thrown overboard by the ANC/SACP Alliance. MS VAN DER WALT And during 1993, more towards the end of the year the leader of the AWB, Mr Eugene Terreblanche also addressed meetings where he announced revolution. Is that true? MR KLOPPERS Basically from the end of 1992 all the way through 1993 every meeting of Eugene Terreblanche was to such a degree so upsweeping that if one had attended a meeting there one would have murdered domestic help immediately. MS VAN DER WALT What was his attitude towards the elections which were to take place in April 1994? MR KLOPPERS It was clearly stated to us that even over the barrel of a gun we would not allow the elections to transpire. He emphasised that we should use all the means at our disposal. If we did not have any guns we would steal guns. We would have to acquire firearms but we would not allow the elections to take place. MS VAN DER WALT You also have a video tape in your possession where in which he also states that the firearms are to be stolen? MR KLOPPERS Yes that is correct. That was only one of the occasions which have been mentioned where he said that firearms should be stolen. In order to stop the proposed elections. MS VAN DER WALT What does one do with a gun? MR KLOPPERS I am a game hunter. I have been trained as a soldier. One shoots to kill. MS VAN DER WALT Therefore if Eugene Terreblanche said: "Steal guns," he did not want to go and have a party with those guns? MR KLOPPERS No. He stated it very clearly to us that even if it had to occur over the barrel of a gun. One would not just lie behind a gun just to shoot randomly. One shot to kill. MS VAN DER WALT Did members of the AWB also manufacture firearms illegally which was known as the pipe gun? MR KLOPPERS Can you please repeat? MS VAN DER WALT The pipe gun. MR KLOPPERS I missed the entire sentence. MS VAN DER WALT Is it true that the AWB illegally manufactured firearms among others the pipe gun? MR KLOPPERS That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Why did the AWB do that? MR KLOPPERS Partly because a shot gun bullets were very difficult to trace unless forensic tests could be undertaken. And secondly so that every person had access to such firearms without a great financial burden. MS VAN DER WALT Was it intended to make war or was it intended for self defence? MR KLOPPERS The purpose was for the guerilla fighters because we acted in small groups. The guerilla fighters had to use these weapons in their attacks. MS VAN DER WALT Do you regard yourself as a guerilla fighter? MR KLOPPERS Please note I regarded myself as a guerilla fighter. MS VAN DER WALT In December 1993 General Oelofse called yourself and Mr Martin? MR KLOPPERS That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Why? MR KLOPPERS Can you be more specific please? MS VAN DER WALT What happened when he called you? Why did he call you to meet him? MR KLOPPERS On several occasions we had been called in to his head quarters among others on one specific occasion a knife was handed over to us directly to Mr Martin. It was an ordinary steak knife, the wood handle, the type one would find in a restaurant. This knife had to be used and this is how he put it, if we were to encounter corpses we had to use this knife to cut off an ear. He wanted to show the ear to the area armies to show how hard we were working. MS VAN DER WALT In your application you say that in November 1993 General Oelofse called you and Deon Martin to his head quarters and it was said to you to be prepared on a twenty four hour basis. MR KLOPPERS That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Why did he do that? MR KLOPPERS It was after he had visited the stockpiling locations of all the South African Defence Force. They had visited these military bases or at least several of them. And it was decided by the generals and staff to take certain steps. But in November he asked us to be prepared on a twenty four hour basis. MS VAN DER WALT Did he give any other further instructions with regard to food as such? MR KLOPPERS It was a general situation that we were trained for. We had to stockpile extra food supplies; tinned food, water had to be frozen in the freezers, generators and so forth. Members of our family, friends and our (...indistinct) commando had to be prepared. MS VAN DER WALT During that time where did you work? MR KLOPPERS I worked with Randfontein Estates. I was the senior training officer. MS VAN DER WALT In which division? MR KLOPPERS In the metallurgical division. MS VAN DER WALT Did you receive any instruction with regard to where you worked? What you had to find there? MR KLOPPERS It was told to me by General Oelofse that he wanted cyanide from the metallurgical plant. That we had to put in the drinking water or reservoirs of Soweto which would cause the death of many blacks. MS VAN DER WALT Your commando or the division of which you were the commander did you have anything to do with Inkatha? MR KLOPPERS We were personally involved with the training of Inkatha and there was about 12 people were given to us who were trained by us. MS VAN DER WALT And the instruction to train these persons, where did this come from? MR KLOPPERS I received this instruction from General Jappie Oelofse. MS VAN DER WALT And on the 2nd of December 1993, this was on a Sunday, is that correct? MR KLOPPERS That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT What happened there on that particular day? MR KLOPPERS That particular day I was called into a meeting by higher placed officers. Initially I could not understand why I was called and later I understood why I was involved. It was for all area commanders. And when I arrived at the plot of General Oelofse I knew that here on this day something big would happen. There were a few guards. MS VAN DER WALT Explain to us? The Committee do not understand. MR KLOPPERS Roaming guards, they patrol the whole place. The whole place was patrolled from the fences and there were two guards at the gate that stopped me and asked me for identification. I attended the meeting and amongst others the whole year's activities was discussed and also the financial state, our recruitment attempts and I was praised over these activities. MS VAN DER WALT Was it strange to you or was it normal that on a Sunday you had to attend such a meeting? MR KLOPPERS It was strange for me that this happened on a Sunday. Ordinarily it would have been on a normal work day and or at extreme cases on a Saturday but it was strange that this happened on a Sunday. MS VAN DER WALT And what happened at this meeting? MR KLOPPERS At this meeting particularly all points where they were with the finance and all the members, the constructing and afterwards it was told to us that the Generals in staff came to the decision that the revolution would start on the same day, on the 12th of December 1993. And that all areas had to participate. MS VAN DER WALT This order group meeting, you have said these were all the area commanders? MR KLOPPERS Yes area commanders. MS VAN DER WALT Was any of the Generals in staff present there? MR KLOPPERS Yes, General Oelofse was there and Brigadier van der Heever, he was the training brigadier. MS VAN DER WALT Is that Chris van der Heever? MR KLOPPERS That is right. And as I have said General Jappie Oelofse. And there was from the flight commando; Commander Ryno and others, I do not know them personally. At this meeting it was told to us that General Oelofse personally would want to see all the area commanders individually. MS VAN DER WALT Why individually? MR KLOPPERS As he pointed out we worked in secrecy, we do not know who to trust and every person who received an instruction that it was his own instruction and he had to handle his own area. MS VAN DER WALT And did you receive any instruction? MR KLOPPERS I personally spoke to General Oelofse. He was aware of the fact of what my area was capable of and the General recommended that I put up a roadblock. And when I asked him about it he said I had the necessary equipment like the reflectors jackets, blue lights and previously myself and Commander Deon Martin, he is now a colonel, and one Mr Gerhard Innerse, he is in New Castle Prison. We had a test run and it worked hundred percent. We could stop vehicles and people were surprised to see that AWB persons stopped them. But I was not concerned because we carried out the message that we do care. MS VAN DER WALT What was your further instruction? You had to set up this roadblock? MR KLOPPERS What he put clearly to me is this is the "real Macoy" and he mentioned also that he wanted to see corpses. MS VAN DER WALT What did you understand by "real Macoy"? MR KLOPPERS "Real Macoy" was the real thing. If you are in the army then you know when you are on foot patrol and they say that you are on "real McCoy" and then you would know soon you would have contact. MS VAN DER WALT Was it out to you that he wanted to see corpses? What did you understand by that? MR KLOPPERS I understood it that if I made contact with the target group then I had to shoot. MS VAN DER WALT Did you understand that you were, this particular evening, you just had to shoot or what was the situation? MR KLOPPERS I do not know what was said to the other area commanders that is why I did what was told to me to identify a target group, namely the ANC/SACP. MS VAN DER WALT When you put up this roadblock and every vehicle that passes there is ANC what would you have done under those circumstances? MR KLOPPERS Every vehicle with ANC persons I would have eliminated all of them. MS VAN DER WALT Was there any discussion with regard to weapons? MR KLOPPERS I had a problem my men were sharpened up with the training by Meiring was one hundred percent, people were trained, we had pipe shot guns, pump action shot guns and so forth. I did not have enough weapons. I put it to him that I would have a shortage of weapons. And General Oelofse took me outside and he - I would call it a canopy, it is a steel construction that was on a lorry that was on his property. We went with a flashlight because it was already dark and he shone the light and he took out 2 pipe shot guns and he gave it to me. MS VAN DER WALT When he gave these pipe shot guns to you he knew what was going to be done with them? MR KLOPPERS Absolutely. Because he gave the instruction that he wanted to see corpses. MS VAN DER WALT But under normal conditions people would not stand at a roadblock with shot guns? MR KLOPPERS I could not answer this because I have never been involved with a roadblock. MS VAN DER WALT At the first roadblock did you have shot guns? MR KLOPPERS The first test run, no not with the first test run. MS VAN DER WALT What did you do afterwards, after you received the order? MR KLOPPERS Directly after I received the order I saw it was about six thirty and because I did not have Commander Martin's telephone number with me, I asked General Oelofse for the number. MS VAN DER WALT Who is Fannie Oelofse? Is that General Oelofse's wife? MR KLOPPERS That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT What was her involvement with the AWB? MR KLOPPERS She handled the finance amongst others. My wife was directly under her command. She was closely involved with head quarters at the control of uniforms and so forth. MS VAN DER WALT Did she have any rank or was she just? MR KLOPPERS She was a colonel in the hierarchy and while we were in prison she was promoted to brigadier. MS VAN DER WALT Did she have any training that you know of? MR KLOPPERS The training that she received I do not know but that she did receive training from Commander Callie Meiring that I know of. MS VAN DER WALT And you said you called? Continue from there? MR KLOPPERS Yes I asked her to help me. I did not know the number of Commander Martin because I did not have my notebook with me. She dialled the number for me. I could not speak to my commander, I spoke to his wife. I gave the necessary instruction and told her to tell him that to get the men together. They should be fully equipped, we were going to work. And she ...[indistinct] the message over the telephone like send my regards to Louise or something to that effect. MS VAN DER WALT General Jappie Oelofse, was he present? MR KLOPPERS No he was not present when I made this call. He was busy with the other area commanders. And I was there alone and the Colonel. MS VAN DER WALT You said that they had to be prepared because you were going to go to work. Would Commander Martin know what you meant by that? MR KLOPPERS Colonel Martin was aware of the fact that if you go to work you had to put on your uniform and take your weapon with you. He would not have known what we would do precisely because we had different options. Amongst others to protect or to act as guards. MS VAN DER WALT And you would then meet at a specific place? MR KLOPPERS I asked that nine 'o clock that we meet nine 'o clock that evening at Uncle Harry's Roadhouse. MS VAN DER WALT What did you do afterwards? MR KLOPPERS MS VAN DER WALT And you arrived there? MR KLOPPERS When I arrived there the men were all there. Commander Martin called them to attention and he saluted me. Our salute is not a normal salute. It is a Boere greeting. And I told the men that tonight is the "real McCoy." We are going to work. MS VAN DER WALT Anything further, did you tell them anything further? MR KLOPPERS I asked who had weapons. And it was said 3 of them did not have weapons and Martin, van der Schyff, Etienne Visser. I gave 2 pipe shot guns to them. MS VAN DER WALT This is the 2 shot guns that you received from General Oelofse? MR KLOPPERS That is correct. That is the 2 home-made shot guns that is known as pipe shot guns. MS VAN DER WALT At this roadhouse did you tell them anything further about the order that you received? MR KLOPPERS No I did not tell them what the purpose of work was. When we left from there it was clear that we had too many vehicles and I knew what our objectives was. We had to go and set up a roadblock as General Oelofse instructed me. We drove to Mr Badenhorst's house and we would have gone directly to Mr Visser's house if I knew there was enough parking space for these vehicles but there was not enough parking space. And therefore we went to Mr Badenhorst's house. And his parents were on vacation, it was no problem to leave the vehicles there. And from there we went to Deon Martin's house and on our way there we went through the houses as we followed the road. What do they call it? We patrolled the area. We arrived at his house and on our way there I told him that we would have a roadblock. He suggested that we do a house penetration or that we attack squatter camps and I told him that was not the order. At Deon Martin's house I put it to the men that we were to set up a roadblock and what was involved there. Callie Meiring would take charge because he had knowledge of this. And I left them there so that they could discuss the matter. I made myself at home. I went to his drink cabinet and there I took out the brandy. It was just less than half a bottle. I divided it into two bottles, I added Coke. And when I went outside they already decided who was going to drive and I gave the two bottles to the two groups. Who in the other vehicle drank of the brandy I cannot say with conviction. I can go on hearsay. I think it was Mr Badenhorst but they can testify to that. I myself, I drank some of the brandy. Deon Martin did not drink. And along with us was Diedericks, he does not drink and Etienne Visser, he also did not drink. We went to this roadblock and on our way there I discovered that the Sentra was getting left behind. I asked that the Mercedes stop and return and Gerhard Diedericks jumped out. After a while he came back and he told me that they had just assaulted two black men. I kept quiet, we drove a little on and we pulled off the road. And when the Sentra caught up with us it stopped and I reprimanded all the men and I asked them not to be out of line. And stick to their order, namely the roadblock that we had to set up. And from there we went to the roadblock. I thought the ideal place would be the Radora crossing or the Krugersdorp/Ventersdorp junction. I thought this would be a suitable place because this road came from the homelands and the main purpose would be to stop ANC and SACP Alliance people and to confiscate illegal weapons from them that we could use for our own revolution. MS VAN DER WALT Yes? And did you go to this place, the junction? MR KLOPPERS We arrived there and instructions was given that Callie Meiring had to set up the Roadblock. I cannot remember who acted as traffic officers. All the men of 9, 8 they were all in camouflage with our sign, the AWB sign was clearly visible. They had one torch, reflective jackets and reflective armbands and a blue light. The Sentra was used as the emergency vehicle so that it looked like a traffic vehicle. And we mounted the blue light onto this vehicle. Myself and Deon Martin decided to drive back in the direction of Ventersdorp and he was driving and while we were driving as the car approaches from the front it was my task to see who was the persons in the vehicle and from the light from his vehicle we could see whether it was white persons or black persons. If we identified this target group we would turn around pass them. I would make sure as we pass them whether they were white or black. Excuse me Mr Chairperson somebody is distracting me. Can we lower the volume on it? Somebody is talking in the background. CHAIRPERSON We will be on the lookout, we will look out for that. MR KLOPPERS And when we got back and passed the vehicle I could see clearly who was in the vehicle. So I made doubly sure that we did not stop the wrong people. We hoped that some of the black persons in the vehicles would not be from the South African Police or South African Defence Force and they would cause trouble for us. We stopped several vehicles. I remember one specific instance and the persons in the vehicle was not satisfied that they were being pulled off by AWB members. The driver, I used a tomphar and hit him over the head hard enough, not to injure him so that he would fall and not drive. I used minimum violence. To make it clear to him that I am not interested in his explanation he must just get going. The second incident that I remember clearly is a vehicle that did not want to start after we stopped it. I told my men to push the vehicle. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Kloppers these vehicles, why did you pull them over? What did you do with them after you pulled them over? MR KLOPPERS Every vehicle that was pulled over was searched thoroughly by my men. And I tried to do most of the questioning because I used to be an Intelligence Officer along with Deon Martin we did the questioning. Namely where do they come from, where are they going and most importantly; to which political party were they affiliated? It was important for me to find this target group. I wish to refer you back to Phase 1 and you would see there that a guerilla fighter attacks even if it is only one person that he kills for the night. Or if he wins a small portion it is a victory for a guerilla fighter. And that is what I wanted to identify with my questions. MS VAN DER WALT And you speak of several vehicles. Those vehicles, why did you tell them to leave instead of doing anything to them? MR KLOPPERS Not one of these persons whether they were or not but none of them admitted that they were affiliated to the ANC/SACP Alliance except for some of them were Inkatha members. And amongst others there were Tswana people who said that they had nothing to do with politics. Other people just said that they did not know anything of the politic. MS VAN DER WALT Please continue, what happened that evening? MR KLOPPERS That evening the last 2 vehicles that we pulled over. Myself and Deon Martin drove in the direction of Ventersdorp. It was getting late. It must have been around midnight. We were approximately 8 to 10 kilometres away from the roadblock when we saw the lights of a vehicle approaching. And the closer we got to them we saw it was 2 vehicles and it was clear to us that they were following each other, they were together. Both vehicles were close to each other. Both vehicles had black persons inside the vehicles. We passed them, we turned around and we passed them again and in front was a Toyota Cressida and behind that was the Honda Ballade. We passed them, went over the hill, it had a slight curve in the road and the lights of the Mercedes was flicked. And they switched on the blue light at the roadblock. We had already stopped at the roadblock when these 2 vehicles arrived. When they came over the small hill and saw the blue light I knew from where the lights could be seen, it was approximately 200 to 300 metres away, the 2 vehicles stopped. My men waited in anticipation, we could hear the doors open and close. We were warned by Deon Martin to take note whether or not people were being dropped off or whether something was being thrown out of the vehicle. After a short while, I cannot say exactly how long probably approximately 2 to 3 minutes, the vehicles started moving again. When they stopped at us the Honda Ballade was in front and the Toyota Cressida was behind the Honda this time. We ordered the passengers to get out. One of the drivers did not want to get out. I hit the side of his windshield with my tomphar(?). He saw that I was very serious and he climbed out. We made them all stand in a line on a small embankment on the side of the road and then we made them sit down on that. The men had their instructions. They knew exactly what to do. They searched the vehicles and looked for the necessary weapons and ammunition for which they had been asked. Deon Martin and I asked questions to the people sitting on the side. I was moving behind them with the tomphar(?). Deon Martin, who was the Commandant at that point posed the question and when I was not satisfied with an answer I used my tomphar to bump the person who had been asked the question or I hit him with the tomphar(?). Once again I would like to say that these blows were not intended to kill. That was not the point. I had to determine firstly whether or not they were part of the target group. Questions were asked and they answered favourably that they were members of the ANC/SACP Alliance. MS VAN DER WALT And then? MR KLOPPERS I moved passed the men who were busy searching the vehicles. During the course of things I asked whether they had found anything but no weapons had been found. I said that they should stand closer and that this was the "real Macoy," that these were ANC people. ... MS VAN DER WALT ... Before you went over to the deed that they should go and look whether something had been discarded? MR KLOPPERS