amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-05-22 JOHANNESBURG 10 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54739&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/joburg/shell10.htm CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to begin? MR PRETORIUS: We are, Honourable Chairman and Honourable Members of the Committee. The next witness will be Mrs Langa. CHAIRMAN: What are her other names please? MR PRETORIUS: I'll give her full names in just a short while, Honourable Chairman. Her first name is Lembede. Sorry, her surname as it stands here is Lembede-Langa. Her first names are Khathazile Saraphina. She will be testifying in Zulu, Honourable Chairman. MS KHAMPEPE: Mrs Lembede, are you prepared to take the Oath? Could you please give us your full names for the record? Is your full names Khathazile Saraphina? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: That is correct. KHATHAZILE SARAPHINA LEMBEDE-LANGA (sworn states) MS KHAMPEPE You may proceed Mr Pretorius. MR PRETORIUS Thank you member of the Committee. Just before I proceed Mr Chairman, I may just place it on record that my learned friends for the ANC have assisted us to that extent that they accept that Mr Sibula Petros Langa was killed there on the corner of King George and De Villiers Streets and, that therefore, it's not necessary for me to show this witness photographs, which will assist us to a large extent. I am indebted to them for that. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The admission was made for the purposes of this hearing. EXAMINATION BY MR PRETORIUS: I accept that as well Mr Chairman. Mrs Langa, Mr Sibula Petros Langa, did you know him and what was your relationship with him? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: He was my son. MR PRETORIUS: When was he born? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: During 1994 he was 28 years old, that is the year on which he died. MR PRETORIUS Was he married? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: No he wasn't. MR PRETORIUS: Did he have any children? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: No he had none. MR PRETORIUS: Are you married? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: Yes I am. MR PRETORIUS: For record purposes, how old are you now? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: I was born during 1933. MR PRETORIUS: And your husband? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: He is late. MR PRETORIUS: Your son, Mr Langa, he was resident in Johannesburg. Is that correct? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: Yes, he was working here. MR PRETORIUS: As what did he work? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: He was doing piece jobs. He didn't have any stable job at that moment. MR PRETORIUS: Who supported you? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: My son. MR PRETORIUS: And now, who is supporting you? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: I'm supporting myself as well as my daughter and my grand-daughter. MR PRETORIUS: Is the situation in regard to your family changed as regard of the death of your son? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: Yes, that is correct, because he was the bread-winner. MR PRETORIUS Now Mrs Langa you heard the guards testify here, the Applicants in this Application for Amnesty. Are you prepared to forgive them for the death of your son? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: No, I'm not prepared. MR PRETORIUS: I've got no further questions to this witness, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRETORIUS CHAIRMAN: Any questions you wish to put to her? MR DORFLING: I've got no questions, thank you Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: Mr Bizos? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS: Just one or two questions. MR CHAIRMAN: Yes, certainly. MR BIZOS: Is that the only son that you had, Mrs Langa? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: Yes, that is correct. MR BIZOS: You were asked whether you are prepared to forgive the guards. Is that because you were told or you believe that they had no reason whatsoever to shoot, which led to the death of your son? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: I do not know anything, but I was just told that my son had died. MR BIZOS: Did you hear the guards say that they wanted to protect their own lives, the lives of their leaders and the property which they were appointed to guard. Did you hear them say that? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: Could you please repeat your question? I did not hear it. MR BIZOS: Did you hear the guards say that they feared for their own lives and the lives of their leaders, and the property which they were appointed to guard. Did you hear their evidence? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: Yes, I did hear but I don't know what the significance of that testimony is. MR BIZOS: If, in fact, they were forced to do that because of what a large group of marchers, in which your son was involved; if that is true, why would you not be in a position to forgive them? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA I cannot comment. I do not know anything about that. MR BIZOS: Thank you Mr Chairman. I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Were do you live? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA In Singa. I come from Singa. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF MR CHAIRMAN: You said that you support yourself and you said as well as your daughter and grand-daughter. That is not clear to me. MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: I plough or I farm the fields, and I am selling firewood so that I can be able to make ends meet. MR CHAIRMAN: And what does your daughter do? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: She is not yet employed. She has a small baby. MR CHAIRMAN: How many other children do you have? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: It was my son, the late, as well as the daughter. I had only two children. Now I have one only, so there is only three members of the family. MR CHAIRMAN: How many children did your son have? MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: He did not have any children. MR CHAIRMAN: Any re-examination? MR PRETORIUS: None thank you, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRETORIUS MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you very much. You may go now. WITNESS EXCUSED MR P A VAN WYK Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I yesterday appeared in respect of one of the objectors, Mrs Ntombela. Before I proceed with any of the other objectors, in order to expedite the proceedings, there is one aspect I want to clarify with the Committee, especially in the light of certain statements that were made yesterday, in order to clarify my own position. Firstly, in respect of Mr Ntombela, my colleague Mr Berger, stated to you that Mr Ntombela was probably shot with an AK-47 from a flat above Nandos, and secondly, refer you to bundle `B' page 185 of bundle `B', in respect of shots 17 and 18, that Mr Ntombela could have been shot from that AK-47. And then secondly, Mr Bizos stated in the examination of the mother, he had put it to her that this deceased was not shot and killed by any of the ANC guards. And then thirdly, in respect of the approach of Mrs Moraka, on behalf of the ANC, that there was no evidence that Mr Chonco was shot by the ANC, and in response to a direct question to Mr Simelane, that is not applying for Amnesty in respect of Chonco. I just want to clarify that I understand the present position to be, and I accepted that there is no Application in respect of any guard, who had fired a shot and who had killed Mr Ntombela. In other words, I accepted that there is an Application for Amnesty for any of the Applicants, which caused the death of Mr Veli Tombela and, if that is the position, I do not intend calling any further witnesses in respect of that deceased. MR CHAIRMAN: Can we clear that up? MR BIZOS: Yes, Mr Chairman. If that is lack of clarity as to whose bullet killed Mr Ntombela, and if it is not conclusive that it came from the place above or next to Nandos, we would persist in the application because the guards do not know whom they shot. So, we will persist in the Application and my learned friend can advise himself as to what further evidence, if any, he wants to lead in that regard. Mr Chonco is on a different basis because we contend that the evidence clearly shows that he was not shot with a shotgun. So that is the distinguishing feature. Thank you Mr Chairman. MS KHAMPEPE: In that case, Mr Bizos, none of your clients are seeking to apply for Amnesty in respect of Mr Chonco's death? MR CHAIRMAN: Mr Tipp? MR P A VAN WYK That is correct, if I may. Mr Chairman, thank you. I accept the position in respect of Mr Chonco, but the position in respect of Mr Ntombela is not clear yet. I accept that at all times Mr Bizos has got instructions to make statements to Mrs Ntombela. He had put it to her that she was not, in fact, shot and killed by one of the ANC guards. Then it is not clear how come they can apply for Amnesty because it was taken up with the mother, this morning, and she approached me with an attitude, that it had been put to her, her son was not killed by any of the guards. And I think that the position must be clear. MR CHAIRMAN: I think the position has been made clear. They are persisting in the position. If you wish to lead any further evidence in that regard, you should just do so. MR P A VAN WYK Thank you. Mr Chairman, I will then just request that statements not be made to the people which is in conflict with the application. I call the next Objector and that is Mr Amos Ngobese. MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, just before my learned friend proceeds, there is two other deceased position that needs to be clarified as well. Thank you Mr Chairman. MR P A VAN WYK I call Mr Amos Ngobese. He will testify in Zulu, Mr Chairman. MS KHAMPEPE: Can you please give us your full names? Please give us your full name. MR NGOBESE: I am Sibusiso Amos Ngobese. Ngobese is my surname. MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Ngobese, will you object taking the Oath? MR NGOBESE: No. SIBUSISO AMOS NGOBESE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR P A VAN WYK Thank you Mr Ngobese. Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ngobese how old are you? MR NGOBESE: I was born on the 2nd January 1965. MR P A VAN WYK What was your formal education that you had? MR NGOBESE: Up to Standard Nine. MR P A VAN WYK Did you complete or pass Standard Nine or what? MR NGOBESE: I passed Standard Nine. MR P A VAN WYK Did you, during 1994, reside at the Nancefield Hostel? MR NGOBESE: Yes, that is correct. MR P A VAN WYK And what employment did you have at that stage? MR NGOBESE: I was working for Radlend Industries in Benrose. MR P A VAN WYK Whilst at Nancefield Hostel, before the shooting incident, did you attend any meetings that was addressed by an Induna? MR NGOBESE: Yes, that happened. MR P A VAN WYK And who was this Induna? MR NGOBESE: There is an Induna who is Chief of Indunas. Mmbatha was the one who occupied that position, in charge of all other Indunas at the hostel. MR P A VAN WYK Is Mmbatha a bachelor's Induna? MR NGOBESE: He is an Induna who is in charge of all of the Indunas, who are in charge of bachelors. MR P A VAN WYK Who addressed this meeting that you attended? MR NGOBESE: It was Mr Induna Mmbatha. MR P A VAN WYK Do you still have a recollection as to what he said at this meeting? MR NGOBESE: I recall him saying that we will go to Library Gardens in Johannesburg to listen to the KwaZulu King, Zweletini, about all his concerns, that he shall continue being the King of KwaZulu, and not be chucked outside. MR P A VAN WYK Was anything said at this meeting that you people were to be armed with firearms, go and attack Shell House, the building, attack the guards or attack the ANC leadership? MR NGOBESE: No, it wasn't like that. MR P A VAN WYK Did you then, on the 28th March, go from Nancefield towards the city to attend this meeting at the Library Gardens? MR NGOBESE: Yes, we left Nancefield for the Library Gardens in Johannesburg. MR P A VAN WYK Of what transport did you make use? MR NGOBESE: From the Hostel Nancefield, we went to Nancefield Station and took a train up to ... We left Nancefield Station to Johannesburg Station. MR P A VAN WYK Did you have any firearms with you on that day? MR NGOBESE: I did not see any firearms. MR P A VAN WYK Did you have any traditional weapons with you? MR NGOBESE: Yes, as it was said that we should have such traditional weapons as is the case with us. MR P A VAN WYK What did you have with you? MR NGOBESE: I had my shield and a traditional knopkierrie. MR P A VAN WYK Can you explain in your own words, as from the station, what did you see and what happened further until you were injured on that day? MR NGOBESE: According to my recollections, we got off Park Station in Johannesburg and we went up, as we know that you go through Hook to Library Gardens. We saw police wearing Stability Uniform. I think I was in the third group or second group, I am not too sure. When we got to Hook Street, the street that we were supposed to use, we saw police there and we continued with Noord Street and jumped Wanderer's following the others who were in front, until we turned in King George. MR P A VAN WYK Who led the way? MR NGOBESE: At that time, it was Induna Kinela, who is late. MR P A VAN WYK Now as you people gathered at the Station and you joined this group under Mr Kinela, were you told by the Induna Kinela or anybody else that you people were now going to Shell House? MR NGOBESE: No we were not told that. We continued with our routes to Library Gardens. MR P A VAN WYK Did you at that stage know where Shell House was? MR NGOBESE: The first time I knew Shell House was when we got to General Hospital, when we were told that we were assaulted at Shell House. MR P A VAN WYK Before you got to Shell House, were you told by anybody or instructed by anybody that you are going to attack a building, that you are going to attack guards or that you are going to attack and kill the ANC leadership? MR NGOBESE: No, I bear no knowledge to that effect. MR P A VAN WYK Was that your intention of going to Shell House to attack the building, to kill the guards or to kill any of the ANC leadership in order to stop the Elections? MR NGOBESE: According to my knowledge, we left Nancefield going to Library Gardens. MR P A VAN WYK Now you have explained the route that the people jumped Wanderer's Street, can you proceed as to when you walked and what then happened? MR NGOBESE: When we turned into King George Street, we jumped De Villiers Street. There was a man who approached, a White man with long hair, trying to stop us and we were surprised as to why he was stopping us because some had already proceeded to Library Gardens. We passed that man. Immediately after that, we got shot at. MR P A VAN WYK Do you recall in which street you were or close to which building you were when you were shot at? MR NGOBESE: I know the building, but I did not know that it was Shell House. I can actually point it out, if you know. MR P A VAN WYK Did you at a later stage accompany the police to that building and show them where you were shot at? MR NGOBESE: There are some police who came to me, who wanted me to point it out to them and I did, as exactly that. MR P A VAN WYK Do you today know what building that is, where you were shot at? MR NGOBESE: Yes, I know it is Shell House. MR P A VAN WYK Could you mention to the Committee what injuries you sustained from this shooting incident? MR NGOBESE: Yes, I can. MR P A VAN WYK Please proceed. MR NGOBESE: As I was shot, I was right on the pavement next to the building but, on the opposite side, I realised that we were being shot. Like enough, when that emanated, there were cars that were parked on the pavement when they were shooting at me under the car. MR P A VAN WYK Were you lying down when you were shot at? MR NGOBESE: Yes, I was lying down. MR P A VAN WYK Now you have been present when several of the ANC security personnel and guards testified as to what happened on that day. I want to know from you, whilst you were on the corners of King George and De Villiers Streets, did you and your co-colleagues/co-Zulus, did you people charge towards the corners of King George and Plein Streets in order to attack the guards or the building or the ANC leadership? What is your comment? MR NGOBESE: I dispute that because we were not attacking, we were on our way to the Library Gardens. I think we were going to join Plein Street and proceed to the Library Gardens but, unfortunately, we never reached there because we were shot at and some of us were killed. MR P A VAN WYK In your own recollection, did you hear any shots being fired from your co-marchers in the group that you were, towards either Shell House or the guards? MR NGOBESE; I don't remember hearing that. The only shots I heard was when we were being shot at. MR P A VAN WYK You have also heard the evidence of the Applicants, in which some of them stated that they regret the incident. Are you prepared to forgive any of them who had possibly shot you? MR NGOBESE: It is not easy to forgive them because we were injured deliberately. That time Zulus were being harassed left, right and centre. You were being harassed for the fact that you are a Zulu and an IFP. I want to emphasise this, that at the time Zulus were being harassed, you will just suffer the consequences of being a Zulu. Now, to forgive them, after they have lied to this Committee, it does not come easy for me because they are telling a blatant lie to this Commission. MR P A VAN WYK The injury you have, could you mention to the Committee where you were injured, on your body? MR NGOBESE: I was injured on my knee, on my right knee. I would like to show you. Let me do this so you can see exactly. This is where I got injured, maybe the ones who are right next to me are able to see exactly. The bullets were extracted but some liquid was drawn from the knee. MR P A VAN WYK After you were shot, did you attend the meeting at Library Gardens? MR NGOBESE: No, I did not attend the meeting. After the shooting stopped, some of my colleagues took me to Hook Street where I was taken by an ambulance and ferried me to Hillbrow Hospital. MR P A VAN WYK Do you know why you were shot on that day? MR NGOBESE: I don't know the reason why. MR P A VAN WYK Thank you Mr Chairman. No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN WYK CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TIPP Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ngobese were the first shots that you heard that day, the ones that you say were fired at you by the guards at Shell House? MR NGOBESE: Yes. MR TIPP Was that the very first time that you saw firearms on that day? MR NGOBESE: No, I knew a firearm that day. MR TIPP On that day, had you seen firearms at any time before the ones that you saw in the hands of the ANC guards? MR NGOBESE: Yes, I saw police having firearms in their possession. MR TIPP Were those the police that you referred to at Hook Street? MR NGOBESE: Yes, even then I saw some. MR TIPP Did you, at any time, see any firearms in the possession of people who were in your group? MR NGOBESE: No, I did not see anything that time. MR TIPP Not at Nancefield? MR NGOBESE: Nothing. MR TIPP Not on the journey to Park Station? MR NGOBESE: The only firearms I saw were the ones that the police at Nancefield had. MR TIPP Were those police who had come to attend to incidents early that morning at Nancefield, in which people got killed? MR NGOBESE: No, each time we will be going to a meeting, they will escort us to the Nancefield Station and we will proceed thereafter. MR TIPP Let me just ask you, are you aware of incidents at Nancefield; one at 4.30 in the morning when someone was killed there, and another at about 6.40 in the morning, that which a driver got killed and police had to take action? MR NGOBESE: It's my first time hearing that, ja. MR TIPP Mr Chairman, just for the record, that's drawn from the police submissions to the Goldstone Commission, we don't propose to burden your record further with that. And Mr Ngobese, during the time of the shooting at Shell House, you say the only shots that you were aware of, were those that came from the side of the ANC? MR NGOBESE: Yes. MR TIPP Were you walking quite peacefully throughout your journey from Park Station, until the point when you got shot? MR NGOBESE: Yes, this is so. We were singing our traditional songs. MR TIPP But you were walking in perfectly good order. Is that your evidence? MR NGOBESE: Yes. MR TIPP Did you proceed, once you had turned into King George Street from Noord Street, did you proceed marching peacefully and in good order, down King George Street, across De Villiers Street to the point where you got shot? MR NGOBESE: Yes, we were just walking or marching peacefully. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, you have mentioned that you were in the third group, as you left Park Station. MR NGOBESE: It may be the third group or second group. I am not quite too sure, I said that earlier on. It definitely wasn't the first group. MR TIPP I would like you please just to tell us what you can remember about the way in which you moved. Is it correct that there was a very large number of marchers who had journeyed in from Nancefield that day? MR NGOBESE: Yes, it is so. MR TIPP Induna Mbatha was the senior Induna, correct? MR NGOBESE: Yes. MR TIPP And was he leading the entire march? MR NGOBESE: Mbatha handed or delegated us to other sub-Indunas to lead the other groups. MR TIPP Yes, we will come to those other Indunas in a moment. My question is specific. Was Induna Mbatha as the senior Induna, leading the entire march, at the head of all the groups? MR NGOBESE: Yes, it is correct. MR TIPP And would it be so that all the groups, with their own more junior Indunas, would follow Induna Mbatha? MR NGOBESE: I'm not certain about this, whether he was in the first group, or in our group, but at Park Station we divided and Kinela was the one leading our own group. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, I think is the word `Amabutho' in the course of your evidence, meaning warrior. Is that right? Warriors? MR NGOBESE: Yes, yes warriors. MR TIPP And did you and your co-marchers view yourselves as warriors on that day? MR NGOBESE: When we talk about people in KwaZulu, or men in KwaZulu, women say we are warriors; so we were warriors at the time. We referred to ourselves as warriors. MR TIPP And were you in time that day, in order to fight for the rights of your King? MR NGOBESE: Yes, we were going to listen as to how far the whole thing had progressed. MR TIPP Did you come to town that day in order to show the people of Johannesburg and others in South Africa that you were a mighty force, to be reckoned with? MR NGOBESE: No, I don't think it was like that, but as a Zulu nation, we were going to convene there to listen to the King and know exactly how far things had gone in as far as him continuing being a king. MR TIPP You are a member of the IFP? MR NGOBESE: Yes, it is true. MR TIPP Did you see your interests as one of the Amabutho, as being the same as the interests of the IFP on that day? MR NGOBESE: I don't quite understand your question. Please repeat it. MR TIPP Did you have the view on that day that the concerns of the King and the Amabutho, including yourself, were the same as the concern of the Inkatha Freedom Party? MR NGOBESE: I won't comment on that because that day we were all Zulus. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, I am going to ask you please to assist us with your comment. You were a member of the IFP. You were a member of the Zulu Amabutho. Did you have the same concerns on that day? MR NGOBESE: Yes, it is so. MR TIPP You were aware that the IFP had played a role in the organising of that entire event, including the rally at Library Gardens? MR NGOBESE: I am not saying that. MR TIPP Did you never hear that the IFP had played a role in organising the events of that day? MR NGOBESE: As a person usually attends IFP meetings and Zulu IFP's, I don't think IFP had planned this. I never heard in the previous meeting anything to that effect. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, you were here at the hearing yesterday. Is that correct? MR NGOBESE: Yes, I was here. MR TIPP You were here at the time that the video was played, that was made at Library Gardens on that day? MR NGOBESE: Yes, I saw the video. MR TIPP Now although you did not get to Library Gardens, and you didn't hear the speech of Mr Humphrey Ndlovu yourself, you saw him on video yesterday speaking? MR NGOBESE: Yes, I heard him speaking. MR TIPP You heard people in attendance there, cheering him for what he said? MR NGOBESE: Yes, I heard that. MR TIPP If you had been there and had listened with your own ears to what he said, would you also have applauded him for his words? MR NGOBESE: If need be, I was going to cheer. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, I don't want their to be ambiguity. You say `if need be, you were going to cheer'. Would you have cheered had you been there? MR NGOBESE: Yes, if it was necessary for me to do that, I would have. MR TIPP You certainly would not have left that meeting because you were in disagreement with what Mr Humphrey Ndlovu had had to say? MR NGOBESE: Yes. MR TIPP So you were happy then with the idea that the people of South Africa would have to pass the spears of the Amabutho, of the IFP before they could succeed in holding the Elections on 27th April 1994? MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, ... MR CHAIRMAN: Yes, please answer. MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, I object to that question. It is not put factually correct. I get the impression that it has been put as if this witness had been there at that time. If it had been put in that sense, then I object to the question. If it is not, then I'll accept the reply. But the impression I get, it was put that you were happy - that is in the past tense. MR CHAIRMAN: No, no. Just in case there is any confusion, will you clear that up? MR TIPP Certainly Mr Chairman. Mr Ngobese, let me just take it slowly please. We know that you were not at Library Gardens on 28th March 1994. MR NGOBESE: Yes, I wasn't there. MR TIPP We know that you saw yesterday, on video, the speech that was made or part of the speech that was made by Humphrey Ndlovu? MR NGOBESE: I heard it, but let me explain here. When he was talking, I did not know that he was addressing that meeting at Library Gardens. It is my first time I hear that. I thought that it was an old meeting that was once held some time ago, but I wasn't aware of the fact that it was that very meeting that he was addressing. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, I think it was perfectly clear from the video and what was said, but you can take it from me that Mr Humphrey Ndlovu made that speech, at Library Gardens, at the meeting that you had intended to attend. MR NGOBESE: Yes, I hear that. MR TIPP You have already confirmed that you were in agreement with what he said? MR NGOBESE: Yes, I was in agreement. MR TIPP Now let me put it again to you - that you were therefore in agreement with the words of Mr Ndlovu which were to the effect that the people of South Africa would have to pass by the spears of the Amabutho and the IFP, before they could hold the Election they wanted to hold on 27th April 1994? MR NGOBESE: Yes, it is correct. He was telling the truth if that were the needs. If the needs of the team were not being fulfilled, I agree with him. MR TIPP In that case the Amabutho were prepared to make war with their spears. Do you agree? MR NGOBESE: That might have happened if it was said it should happen. MR TIPP Now, was it not the case Mr Ngobese, that it was precisely with those thoughts in mind that all of you, including yourself, came from Nancefield Hostel to Park Station and on to Shell House on that day? MR NGOBESE: It was not like that as you have heard that he was addressing at the Library Gardens and some of us were already at hospital. He was talking about something that was going to happen, if the needs of the King were not being fulfilled. That day we were not attacking. We were not up to any evil. MR TIPP Let us go back for a moment or two Mr Ngobese, to the meeting at Nancefield that was addressed by Induna Mbatha. MR NGOBESE: Yes. MR TIPP You have told the Committee thus far that what you can recall is that Induna Mbatha said that you must go to Library Gardens to listen to the King because there were concerns, and the King wanted to continue to be the King of KwaZulu and not to be discarded. MR NGOBESE: Yes, it's correct. MR TIPP Was that a meeting attended by a great number of the persons who reside at Nancefield Hostel? MR NGOBESE: Those who were already back from work did attend. MR TIPP Can we take it that there were hundreds and hundreds of persons who attended that meeting? MR NGOBESE: Yes, the majority was there. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, you have passed Standard Nine. I take it that you can make some sort of estimate of the number of people who attended. Can you help us? MR NGOBESE: I may estimate, just 300 upwards. MR TIPP This meeting, I would think and you can assist me if I'm wrong, would not have been just a meeting of a minute or two. It would have gone on for some time? MR NGOBESE: It did not take long because whatever was being said there, we knew that very well that the King was fighting for his rights that he should not be discarded. And another thing that was mentioned there is that we shall not come with dangerous weapons. All we should have are the traditional weapons and after that, we dispersed, we left. MR TIPP Was it Induna Mbatha who said to you, you mustn't arm yourselves with dangerous weapons? MR NGOBESE: Yes, it is true. MR TIPP Is it usually the practice that when the Amabutho moves out that they, in fact, do carry dangerous weapons including firearms? MR NGOBESE: No, that would be said at every meeting that we should not be armed with dangerous weapons, but we should have the traditional weapons with us. MR TIPP Just try and recall what else might have been said by Induna Mbatha at that meeting. MR NGOBESE: He went on to tell us the routes and the programme of the day; the time, as to what time we should take off from the station and in which train we will board, and the estimation of our arrival time in Johannesburg. MR TIPP What did he tell you about the route? MR NGOBESE: He told us about the fact that we leave Nancefield Station, get into a train, first stop train to Park Station in Johannesburg and we will proceed. The fact that we will find policemen in Hook Street, he did not say that to us. MR TIPP Did he mention that you would go down Hook Street and turn into De Villiers Street and go straight along to Library Gardens? MR NGOBESE: He did not say that. MR TIPP What did he say was the problem of the day? MR NGOBESE: The problem or the programme of the day? MR TIPP What time was the rally to be held at Library Gardens, do you remember? MR NGOBESE: I don't remember the time but as a Nancefield resident, we always preferred the morning but I don't quite remember the time, the exact time as to what time it was going to commence - whether 10 or 11. I don't remember him saying that, may be he did say but I did not catch that. MR TIPP Was anything said about the ANC in the course of that meeting? MR NGOBESE: I don't remember anything being said about ANC. MR TIPP Was anything said about discipline along the route and that people should obey the instructions of any police officers? MR NGOBESE: We would be escorted by the police each time we undertake a journey, as we found the police at Hook Street and pointed us to go to which direction, that is Noord Street. Police were there and told us to go down Noord. They usually lead us according to my knowledge. MR TIPP I'm just asking about the meeting at Nancefield. Were you reminded that in the event of any police officer giving you instructions as to where you were to go, that you should obey? MR NGOBESE: He did not say that, on that particular day that when the police say that you must do that, but it was a usual thing that we will be escorted by police in every journey that we undertake. MR TIPP Is it a usual thing that all the persons who participate in marches of that sort will obey the instructions of any police officer? MR NGOBESE: Yes, it's a usual thing. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, you have said that you were told that the rally was to deal with the problems that the King had and the concerns that the King had. Were you told what the reason was for the concerns of the King? MR NGOBESE: What was being said about the King was that his kingdom shall come to an end; that is what was being said that his kingdom shall come to an end in KwaZulu and this KwaZulu thing must come to an end as well. MR TIPP Who did you understand might be the cause of that threat to the Kings sovereignty? MR NGOBESE: I am not too sure but it's what I used to hear, that is what I used to hear. MR TIPP Let me ask you directly, did you used to discuss with your friends that the ANC was part of the problem facing the King? MR NGOBESE I don't have any recollection of that. MR TIPP Does that mean that the ANC never featured in your discussions with your friends as a problem for the people of KwaZulu and the King? MR NGOBESE What I knew was that ANC and KwaZulu people were not on good terms. When ANC looks at a Zulu person he will be bound to kill that person, that is according to my knowledge. MR TIPP You say that was common knowledge, was that your belief at the time? MR NGOBESE Yes. MR TIPP Did you then view the ANC as your enemy? MR NGOBESE Yes, it was true. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, I want to go back now to the point we were at a little while ago. At Park Station, after you had journeyed there from Nancefield ...[intervention] MR NGOBESE Please repeat your question. MR TIPP I want to go back to the point where you had arrived at Park Station after your journey from Nancefield. MR NGOBESE Yes, I hear that. MR TIPP Now, can you describe for us as best as you can please, what happened once you had got off the train and moved up onto the upper level of Park Station and you moved out into Noord Street? MR NGOBESE What I know is that we alighted from the train and we parted or we divided into groups. The Nancefield was aside and we went up the stairs, we got up Park Station and we went down. We met the police and the police instructed us to go down Noord ...[intervention] MR TIPP I'm sorry to interrupt you but I want to please just take it step by step if you don't mind. You will have full opportunity to say everything you want to say about it. I want you please to tell us where did you form up into your groups, was that still on the station platform level or when you had come up onto street level? MR NGOBESE When we were still at Park Station, that's when they divided us into groups. MR TIPP You can assist us, I'm sure you know Park Station better than I do, but when the train comes in from Nancefield side, you come up stairs or escalators to come the street level, is that correct? MR NGOBESE Yes, that is correct. MR TIPP And from there you would move out into the far western side of Noord Street, quite close to Hook Street? MR NGOBESE Yes, that is true. MR TIPP What I particularly am asking you is whether the various groups were formed up as separate groups at the lower level, the platform level or on the street level? MR NGOBESE They were formed at the platform level. MR TIPP You were certainly not in the first group, you followed, I think you said, two other groups, you were in the third group? MR NGOBESE Yes, it might have been like that. MR TIPP With Induna Kanjele in charge of your group? MR NGOBESE Yes, it is correct. MR TIPP Do you recall who the other Indunas were who were in charge of other groups? MR NGOBESE I wouldn't know whether they were forward, but they were assigned to their own respective groups as well. MR TIPP The groups in front of you then moved up to the street level and your group followed behind them? MR NGOBESE Yes, there would be just a few metres between the groups. MR TIPP Each of these groups was large, containing several hundred persons? CHAIRPERSON The question is, each group had approximately a hundred people or more, that's the question. MR NGOBESE Yes. MR TIPP Are you able to estimate how many hundred were in your group? MR NGOBESE It's difficult but I can estimate, we were approximately 150, plus minus 150, something around there. MR TIPP Was this something that was arranged beforehand at Nancefield or only on arrival at Park Station? By this I mean the allocation of persons into different groups. MR NGOBESE The planning of the groups was just done or conducted by the leaders. It was just done randomly, they would just point at how many they want to have in their group, those who would be the Indunas doing that. MR TIPP Now Mr Ngobese, as the groups then moved up onto the street level in Noord Street, I want you please to tell us how they moved, in what direction. MR NGOBESE As I have already indicated or said, that when we left Noord, going down we were following the groups in Noord Street and turned into King George. MR TIPP In other words, all the groups proceeded eastward along Noord Street, past Hook Street and past Wanderer's Street, is that right? MR NGOBESE Yes, that is right. MR TIPP At the stage that you turned right into King George Street, there would therefore have been hundreds of marchers, Amabuthu, ahead of you? MR NGOBESE Yes, that's true. MR TIPP Did they proceed straight down King George Street and across de Villiers Street? MR NGOBESE I did not see whether they crossed but we were following them to the direction they were taking. MR TIPP When you yourself in your group turned from Noord Street right into King George Street you would have seen that there were other groups ahead of you with hundreds of people ahead? MR NGOBESE Yes, that's true. MR TIPP What happened to them, did they proceed peacefully down King George Street? MR NGOBESE I think they peacefully proceeded because we were assaulted, they were left alone. I think they peacefully passed and they were not assaulted but we were assaulted. I think they were left alone to go on ahead. MR TIPP Let's just deal with your position in your group, were you near the front of your group or near the back or in the middle, can you tell us? MR NGOBESE Please repeat that last part of the question. MR TIPP Were you at the front of your group or at the back of it or in the middle of it? Can you give us some idea? MR NGOBESE I was in the front and I think my Induna was three metres ahead of me. MR TIPP Well, in that case you could have seen quite clearly what was happening ahead of you, is that correct? MR NGOBESE Yes, that is correct. MR TIPP Then I want to repeat the question I put to you a minute ago, what happened to the groups that were moving ahead of you in King George Street ahead of your group? MR NGOBESE At that time, I never saw it, I don't know what happened to it. When we were being shot at, I don't know the end of that group but I thought we were still following that group. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, I don't want to take up the time of this Committee unnecessarily but I'm going to ask you again please to tell us what happened to the groups involving hundreds of people that were moving ahead of you? JUDGE NGCOBO Probably you should ask him when last he saw that group because as I understand his evidence he says, at the time when they were shot at he couldn't see that group, he had always thought that they were simply following that group. MR TIPP Let me try to rephrase it Judge. Mr Ngobese, I'm going to take it back one or two steps please, if you'll follow me. You've told us already that as you left Park Station moving eastward along Noord Street there were groups ahead of you, did I follow you correctly? MR NGOBESE That is correct. MR TIPP Those groups ahead of you turned right into King George Street? MR NGOBESE That is true. MR TIPP You've told us, if I heard you correctly, that there were only a few metres between once group and the next? MR NGOBESE Between my Induna and myself there would have been a few metres. MR TIPP That I recall, you said there were about three metres but my recollection is that you had said earlier that there were only a few metres between the groups themselves, between one group and the next. JUDGE NGCOBO Perhaps we can clear it up by asking: "How far behind the other group were you, your group"? MR NGOBESE It's not easy to estimate the exact metres, you will listed to your own Induna. Of course following the other group, maybe it could have been seven to ten metres but your concentration will be based on your Induna, your own Induna. Anything other than that you are not bothered about. JUDGE NGCOBO What the attorney wants to establish is that when you were at Park Station the Induna would allocated himself a group that he will lead, are you with me? MR NGOBESE ...[inaudible] JUDGE NGCOBO Now your group that you belonged to was led by Kynele, now you could see the next group or the group that you are following. MR NGOBESE Yes, you could definitely see the next group. JUDGE NGCOBO You saw that group until when? MR NGOBESE The group that we were following, we were walking along the street, we saw that group taking a corner and after that I never saw it anymore. Not that I never saw it anymore, but I wasn't bothered about that group, I knew very well that we were following that group although it took a turn. JUDGE NGCOBO But could you still see it? MR NGOBESE It's a bit difficult there because seeing that group - you see, when you are following a group as I told you that we're behind, seeing that group, I don't recall much because I wasn't bothered much about that group because I knew we were just following that group. CHAIRPERSON This might be a convenient stage to take the adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION JUDGE NGCOBO Mr Ngobese, you are still under oath. AMOS NGOBESE (s.u.o.) MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, I'm not going to dwell on this point but I just want to round it up. You said in your evidence that when you turned from Noord Street into King George Street you saw groups involving hundreds of people moving ahead of you, is that correct? MR NGOBESE Yes, they were always ahead of us. MR TIPP You've also said that you expected that you and your group would move down King George Street to Plein Street and then to turn away in order to move towards Library Gardens? MR NGOBESE Yes, that is correct. MR TIPP Is that what happened to the groups in front of you, did they proceed all the way down King George Street across de Villiers Street and into Plein Street and then turn away? MR NGOBESE I think that's what happened. MR TIPP Did you see that happening? Mr Ngobese, let me make it clear, I'm not trying to trick you into anything, I'm not trying to remember what you can't remember, but you saw people ahead of you, all I want to do and I'm asking for the last time, can you tell us what became of them? MR NGOBESE I did not see anything happening to them. MR TIPP I'm afraid that that's an unclear answer, does that mean that you saw them carry on all the way down King George Street to Plein Street without anything happening to them? MR NGOBESE If I were to explain that, when we turned into King George I thought we were following them as to whether they proceeded in King George and what happened to them I don't know, but I thought we were following them. MR TIPP You said in your evidence that they were ahead of you and that you saw people ahead of you, is that correct or are you not sure? Can I just remind you further before you answer, that you also said in your evidence that they, after you turned from Noord into King George there were hundreds ahead of you and they passed peacefully on and they were left alone to go on ahead, they were not attacked. Now is that what you saw Mr Ngobese? MR NGOBESE As I've already explained, I thought we were following the group ahead of us as usual. That is how we move, we use the same route and that is why I'm saying I thought that at that stage we were still following them. As to what became of the group I do not know. When we got attacked I had the impression that we were still following the group ahead of us. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] clear that up as far as I'm concerned. If anything were to have happened to that group that was ahead of you while they were in King George Street you would have seen it? MR NGOBESE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, the policemen that you referred to at Hook Street, did they speak to your group or your Induna? MR NGOBESE The police that I'm referring to were the police in Hook Street. MR TIPP Those are the very ones I'm referring to. Did they speak to anyone in your group and particularly your Induna? MR NGOBESE They never did but they just indicated with their hands that this is the route that we should take as a group. MR TIPP Hook Street itself was perfectly clear and open, is that correct? MR NGOBESE There were a lot of police who told us that we were not supposed to use Hook Street. They indicated another route that we should follow, so we could not use Hook Street, we had to proceed towards Noord Street which means Hook Street was not accessible to us because of the police barricade. MR TIPP Are you saying Mr Ngobese, that there were a large number of policemen who had completely blocked off Hook Street? MR NGOBESE Yes, that is correct, that is what I explained earlier on, that there were a lot of police who were wearing stability uniforms. MR TIPP But you could see Hook Street as you passed by that Hook Street itself, other than the policemen, was perfectly open and clear, is that right? MR NGOBESE I didn't pay much attention to that because we were actually waiting for the Induna to give us specific instructions and at the same time we were singing and we were actually waiting for the Induna to give us further instructions. Sir, I don't remember myself looking as to whether Hook Street was clear or not. MR TIPP Were those the only policemen that you saw between Park Station and the point where you got shot? MR NGOBESE Yes, that is correct. MR TIPP When you got to Wanderer's Street there were no policemen there? MR NGOBESE I never saw any. MR TIPP And Wanderer's Street is in fact a wider street than is King George Street and one that was perfectly suitable for a large group of people to move down, will you accept tat? MR NGOBESE Yes, I do accept that. MR TIPP Can you explain to us why your group didn't then turn right down Wanderer's Street in order to go on to Library Gardens? MR NGOBESE It's because we were following the other group which was ahead of us. MR TIPP So you're quite clear now that the group was still ahead of you, the other groups were still ahead of you as you crossed over Wanderer's Street? MR NGOBESE Yes, that is quite clear because we were still continuing to follow the rest of the group which was ahead of us or other groups which were ahead of us. MR TIPP And as far as you are concerned, no groups turned down Wanderer's Street? MR NGOBESE I don't remember seeing any group that took Wanderer's Street. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, the difficulty that one has with your evidence is that nobody's account did groups of marchers move past Shell House in King George Street on their way to Plein Street in the course of that incident. MR NGOBESE It's possible that that person is telling the truth. It is possible that he is not telling the truth but according to my own recollection I had the impression that we were following a group ahead of us but it's possible that I'm mistaken. MR TIPP What happened to the man, you spoke about the white man who came to your group calling on you to stop, he was trying to stop you, he was the white man with the long hair, what became of him? MR NGOBESE I saw him as I was approaching and I went past him and thereafter I think I lost sight of him. I think we left him behind. MR TIPP When you went past him were you still walking peacefully? MR NGOBESE Yes, that is correct, we were still walking peacefully but now I had seen at the time that people at the top of the building who had guns in their possession. MR TIPP Can you remember when you saw those people for the first time? MR NGOBESE I saw these people as we were crossing de Villiers Street. MR TIPP Where were you in de Villiers Street Mr Ngobese, were you on the northern side of de Villiers Street or the southern side when you saw them? MR NGOBESE I think I was at the north. MR TIPP Did you also see people down near Klein Street with firearms who were on the street level? MR NGOBESE No, I never saw that. MR TIPP Mr Chairman, I may have put the wrong street, I'm referring to Plein. MR NGOBESE Yes, Plein is the street just after de Villiers or before de Villiers. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, when the group coming down King George Street got to the intersection of de Villiers Street there was a pause in its movement, there was a lull whilst it stood there, do you recall that? MR NGOBESE Which group are you referring to? MR TIPP If yours was the front group at that stage then I'm referring to your group but I'm generally referring to all the marchers that came down King George Street from the direction of Noord Street. MR NGOBESE I don't remember such a pause in my own group. MR TIPP It's a question that was asked by the legal representatives of the ANC and directed to, among others, your own legal representatives. Mr Chairman, just for the record, paragraph 21 of the request, it's in bundle A, page 10, the following was put: "That after the groups of marchers had converged at the intersection of King George and de Villiers Streets they paused for a short while and then charged forward moving south into the portion of King George Street directly adjacent to Shell House" Perhaps that should be interpreted for the witness. INTERPRETER It has been. MR TIPP The reply was that the - that's at page 98 of the same bundle Mr Chairman "The objectors deny that they charged forward and south in the direction of King George Street directly adjacent to Shell House, they merely marched in the direction of aforesaid. Save as aforesaid, the contents of this paragraph is admitted" Which we certainly construe to be an admission of the pause. And that Mr Chairman, is of course also in the evidence of Von Eggedy which has been accepted as common cause. MR P A VAN WYK Mr Chairman, if I may just interject, this witness merely said that he doesn't remember it, that doesn't mean it didn't take place and that doesn't mean that he is giving evidence in conflict with what we have replied thereto. CHAIRPERSON Yes, he merely said: "I don't remember whether there was such a pause", as far as his group was concerned. MR TIPP Well that's correct Mr Chairman, in time we'll doubtless find out where that instruction came from. CHAIRPERSON I'm not sure whether these matters ought not to be cleared up in some other tribunal rather than this one. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, you say you recall no pause at all, was there any reaction at all from your group or from your Induna who was close to you, to the arrival on the scene of the white man who was trying to stop you? MR NGOBESE As were singing, I don't remember anybody responding to this man. We were surprised as to why he was blocking our way because the other ones had already gone past and at that time we were seeing the people with firearms, I don't remember the rest. MR TIPP Well what that white man has said is that his effort to stop the group was unsuccessful, it charged forward with people waving their weapons in the manner of people carrying out an attack, in the course of which he himself suffered a number of blows. MR NGOBESE If that happened, what I could just say is that it was not our intention to injure him or assault him or do him any harm because whilst we were approaching we were singing, we were happy and we do not understand as to why he was stopping us right in the vicinity of the people who had firearms and he did not stop the previous group or the group before us. MR TIPP Did you see the two armed and uniformed policemen who ran up to stop the group from moving forward? MR NGOBESE No, I did not. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, I'm going to refer you to certain affidavits that you made which were filed in the course of the inquest proceedings and just ask you one or two questions about them to explain what you meant there. Mr Chairman, I expect that these have not been placed before you, may I hand them up. CHAIRPERSON What are they? MR TIPP They are affidavits made by Mr Ngobese. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR TIPP They do form part of the inquest proceedings but I think not ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[indistinct] part of the record, I beg your pardon. MR TIPP Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please hand them in. MR TIPP There are copies for the Committee and the counsel for the Committee and for the witness. Perhaps Mr ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON To which bundle do you want this appended? MR TIPP It would probably be convenient to go into bundle B at page 293 and following. MR P A VAN WYK Mr Chair, may I at this point in time just request Mr Tipp to perhaps refer to these affidavits with reference they had at the inquest. We haven't got them in front of us, just to make it convenient for us to follow which specific affidavits he is referring to? CHAIRPERSON Very well, but for present purposes it will be bundle B, page 293 onwards. MR P A VAN WYK As the Honourable Chair pleases. MR TIPP For my learned friend's record, they first affidavit is A15, the second affidavit is A336, they were also given the series number K3B and K3C in the inquest proceedings. MR P A VAN WYK Mr Chairman, may I just enquire, are these the only affidavits of the same witness that you intend showing to the Committee because other statements were also made? MR TIPP Mr Chairman, I may say that I had anticipated that when my learned friend let his witness, that he would have placed this material before the Committee. There are other statements that relate to the witness going with members of the police to point out certain points. We believe that they take the matter nowhere and we've not included them. If the Committee felt that it might assist we would very gladly make copies as well. CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, you've got before you copies of affidavits - and again for completeness Mr Chairman, I should point out that these are not the original signed affidavits because they were all retyped for the purpose of the inquest record but they've been accepted by everyone as properly attested. Mr Ngobese, do you recall from time to time making statements to members of the police in connection with the events at Shell House? MR NGOBESE Yes, I do. MR TIPP ...[inaudible] and I think let me just ask you, you read English comfortably do you? MR NGOBESE Yes. MR TIPP Do you read Afrikaans as well? MR NGOBESE No, I'm not able to. MR TIPP Then I will read out what appears in the first affidavit which was recorded in Afrikaans. There is a signature on the affidavit from a Mr Magomo who say he translated it from Zulu to Afrikaans and again from Afrikaans into Zulu. Now that is - Mr Chairman, I think the first page I referred to is 293. You describe there that you moved from Park Station with a group of Zulu's in order to attend the gathering at the Library Gardens. In paragraph 2 you say: "We were a large group which moved from Park Station to the library, we moved in North Street and then turned down into Wanderer's Street" Thereafter you moved in de Villiers Street, do you remember saying that? MR NGOBESE Yes, I do remember, but I would like to explain that further. At the time that I received this statement from Magomo I was not fully conversant with the streets as well as the names of the streets. What we did, we actually, I did the pointing out whilst I was in the car and they took me the second time. I would point the streets out, then he assigned names to the particular streets, now I'm not exactly sure as to what street is which because I did not know the names of the streets at that time and I do not know the names of the streets now. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese and in fairness to you - Mr Chairman, you will see in paragraph 8 where the witness himself says "Ek is tans nie presies seker van die straat name nie en sal later die presiese punte aan die poliesie uitwys" So you say in that statement Mr Ngobese, that you are not sure of street names. It is a statement incidentally that was made very soon after the event, on the 30th of March of 1994, is that correct? MR NGOBESE I think it is true, I'm not really sure and I was in the car whilst I was doing the pointing out. MR TIPP In any event, after describing how you had moved in Noord Street and got to de Villiers Street, in paragraph 3 you say "There were then policemen in de Villiers Street who showed us with their hands that we were to move in a different direction and people from Plein Street then fired at us" MR NGOBESE I don't remember saying that there were policemen who actually indicated the direction to us, as to which way we should move. Is there anything that says there was a man with long hair who stopped us along the way? It's possible Magomo does not know Zulu and the policemen to whom I submitted my statement are Afrikaans speaking. The possibility is that we did not understand each other at that time. I remember the story about the man with the long hair, the white man with the long hair who stopped us along the way. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, I want to - so these policemen that you referred to in this statement, can you tell us today who you intended to refer to? MR NGOBESE I don't understand the question when you say who was I referring to, I don't understand it, could you repeat it please? MR TIPP In this affidavit you mention policemen in de Villiers Street, are you able today to tell us who that reference should be to, if it is not to policemen in de Villiers Street? MR NGOBESE I did not see the policemen at de Villiers Street, at de Villiers Street I think I saw the white man who stopped or tried to stop us. At that point I did not see the police. MR TIPP When you with your group came down King George Street and you got to de Villiers Street, did you see that there was a large group of marchers in de Villiers Street that had come from the direction of Wanderer's? MR NGOBESE No, I did not. MR TIPP Do you mean to say that there were no marchers in de Villiers Street or that you simply cannot recall? MR NGOBESE The marchers I will talk about will be us who were there at the time, others I did not see. As I continue emphasising the fact that as Zulus, when we move with our Induna, he will always want all the attention to be drawn to him, don't bother about other things, that should be none of your business, just worry and take utmost concentration to the Induna. We will do as we are instructed by the Induna and not bother about other things, the other outsiders. MR TIPP When the white man came and tried to stop you did your Induna then instruct the group to continue? MR NGOBESE I will explain it this way, the man that came to stop us wasn't bothered, I mean we never paid attention to that man. We were looking at others. MR LAX We didn't catch the rest of that answer, it ended at: "we were looking at others" and then it just stopped dead. He carried on talking after that, what was actually said? MR NGOBESE What I'm saying here is, this person or this man with long hair, white man, we did not pay attention to him and we did not even bother to find out why he was stopping us because the ones that we were following, we did not see them anymore. Why should he be stopping us and yet there were people that we saw right on top of the building with firearms in their possession. And when he stopped us right next to that building we wondered why and what was he up to, we were questioning that man, whether he was a police or he was a traffic cop or he was some security of some kind. This is why we did not even pay attention to this man who was stopping because we did not even know the reason why he was stopping us. MR TIPP What did you make of the fact that you saw people with firearms on the balcony of the building in front of you? MR NGOBESE I just thought it is people who were guarding the building and that didn't really matter much to me because I didn't see it involving me in any way. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, I just want to show a photograph - which is in D54 Mr Chairman, that is a photograph of the portion of King George Street near Plein Street, does it look familiar to you? MR NGOBESE It doesn't look familiar, maybe I did not pay much attention to it when I saw it but I do recognise Nando's and I do remember Nando's. MR TIPP You will see on that photograph that there are concrete blocks right across the street. MR NGOBESE That is correct. MR TIPP That was the position on that day at the Southern part of King George Street. MR NGOBESE I can see King George as well as the sign that this is King George Street. MR TIPP There were also on that day similar concrete blocks at the northern part of that King George Street, save that two of them had been moved sideways in order to allow cars in and out. MR NGOBESE I don't remember seeing anything of that sort. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, I want to put it to you that that can't be correct, that you were at the front of your group, you must have seen that here was a stretch of road that was clearly unsuitable for the passage of hundreds of marchers? MR NGOBESE I don't even remember seeing what you've referred me to. As I was at the front, I don't remember seeing any of these things that you've identified in the photo. Is this on the other side of de Villiers or is it on the corner of King George or before you cross de Villiers? MR TIPP The photograph you're looking at is the position at the southern part of King George Street where it runs into Plein Street, I think you can see that quite clearly, correct? MR NGOBESE If it's the southern part and we were moving along the north that's why I could not have seen it. If you say it's on the southern part and I said I was moving along the north, then that is why I didn't see it. MR TIPP You were heading straight for that Mr Ngobese. MR NGOBESE As I've already explained, if you said that's the southern part, it's possible that I was moving on the northern part. INTERPRETER Excuse me Members of the Committee, there might be a confusion between the northern part because it's either the northern or the upper part because he said the upper part which might not necessarily be the northern part. MR TIPP Let me try and clarify it. Mr Ngobese, is it clear to you what that photograph represents? That there are concrete blocks right across King George Street at the point where it would join Plein Street? MR NGOBESE I don't recognise it, I think we never even got to Plein Street. MR TIPP Now at the part of King George Street where it intersects with de Villiers Street, there were similar concrete blocks, they were positioned at the southern part of the de Villiers Street intersection, in other words as you moved down from Noord Street in King Street you would cross over de Villiers Street and then reach those concrete barricades in King George Street, did you follow that? MR NGOBESE If the bricks were further down I couldn't have seen them because I was moving a bit further up the street. MR TIPP They were right at the intersection with de Villiers Street and I've explained to you that it was exactly the same as in the photograph except that two of those blocks had been moved sideways in order to allow cars in and out of that portion of King George Street. MR NGOBESE It's possible that I don't understand when you say there were the southern part because I've been saying this for the past few minutes, that we were moving along the north. JUDGE NGCOBO The question is, with regard to the northern part or the southern part and you're talking about the upper part and the lower part. When you say the upper part, what are you referring to? Is it still the north to you or does it still mean north to you? MR NGOBESE I mean the north. MR TIPP Mr Chairman, I've asked my learned friend, Mr Berger just to go with a stick and just to point out precisely where we say the blocks were and then hopefully we can short circuit this debate. What is being pointed out to you now Mr Ngobese is what I'm referring to as the northern part of that portion of King George Street where there were blocks with a small opening for cars - Mr Berger if you would just point to the southern part. That is the portion where you see concrete blocks right across the street as in the photograph that's in front of you, thank you. Now Mr Ngobese, hopefully that is now clear to you. Let me put again to you that the presence of those concrete barricades must have been absolutely clear to you as you were there in front of your group on that day. MR NGOBESE I do see the concrete bricks in the photo but as he is pointing out in King George and Plein, we hadn't yet reached that point at that time. He's pointed out at Plein and King George Street, now we hadn't yet reached that point. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, I'm going to suggest that you're being frank with the Committee with that answer. I'm going to put it to you that it was clear to you and the others in your group that this was not a suitable road for you to move down and that the only reason why you did in fact enter that road is that you charged forward in order to attack the ANC personnel there and potentially the building itself, of Shell House. MR NGOBESE According to my own recollection that is not so. MR TIPP I'm going to go back for a moment to the position at Park Station. You have said to us Mr Ngobese, that you moved through Park Station very peacefully and that you had not heard any shots at all until you got to Shell House, is that right? MR NGOBESE That is correct. MR TIPP I'm going to ask whether you've got any comment on this, there is before this Committee a transcript of radio broadcasts made by the South African Police in the course of that morning, do you follow what that is? MR NGOBESE I'm still listening, it's not yet clear to me what you are referring to me. Maybe I'll get it when you continue to talk. MR TIPP Let me then continue and if there is anything unclear you can tell me and I'll try to clarify it for you. There were policemen at various points on duty that day who made radio broadcasts on their radio from time to time in respect of incidents that they observed. At 11H12, that is twelve minutes past eleven there is a report from a Major Els at Shell House, that there was shooting there. MR NGOBESE Yes, I'm listening, you can continue. I will respond to that as soon as you are through. MR TIPP Mr Chairman, my apologies, it's page 44 in bundle A. I'm going to put to you Mr Ngobese, that it's quite clear, indeed it's common cause that that relates to the shooting incident that you've described and in which you say you were injured. CHAIRPERSON What page? MR NGOBESE At page 43 Mr Chairman, of the same bundle there is a report at 11H09 which is just a few minutes before Mr Ngobese, there's a report from Park Station and it's to the effect that there are about 400 people moving out of Johannesburg Station and that they're firing shots ...[intervention] MS KHAMPEPE Isn't that page 44 Mr Tipp? MR TIPP That is 43 Learned Member, that's at 11H09. MR LAX Sorry, 11H09 is 44 in our bundle, just to help you. MR TIPP Then we're just a little out of sync, I'm sorry. It's 31 of the typed transcript. MR LAX Yes. MR TIPP Then at 32 of the typed transcript there is a second report from a member of the police identified as Papa Sierra, 1 at 11H11, more or less directly before the shooting at Shell House. He says - I'll read it in Afrikaans and then translate it for you: He's saying that "We're here at Johannesburg Station, at the very corners of Hook Street and Noord Street. There are approximately 1000 people around there and they are firing various shots" Do you follow that Mr Ngobese? MR NGOBESE Yes, I'm still following. If that is a report from the police, if police see you having a firearm they confiscate that firearm, why didn't they? MR TIPP Well, we're not here with an inquiry into what the police did or didn't or should have done, we're here into an examination of your evidence. And I'm going to put it to you that that transcript, together with certain evidence from the ANC guards who heard that shooting, shows that you have not told the truth when you describe your group as having moved peacefully without ever any shots being fired. MR A P VAN WYK Mr Chairman, can I just ascertain, is it being put to this witness that it was in this group that the shots were fired where this witness was present? Is it being to him, because I've seen no affidavit forthcoming from the ANC supporting that statement. MR TIPP Mr Chairman, it's put on the basis that there is such immediate congruence of the events that here one has a description of a large group arriving at Park Station and moving to Shell House at the very time that must correspond with the reports made by the police. We are putting it that it must be this group. This entire group of your that arrived by train from Nancefield, Mr Ngobese. MR NGOBESE I don't remember anyone amongst my group who had a firearm in his possession. I don't remember seeing anyone with a firearm and I don't remember hearing any fire coming from my group, that's what I know. MR TIPP Well, I'm going to put it to you also that in the inquest statements were filed by police officers who were on duty at Park Station who deny that at any time any marchers were directed in any particular direction. Again Mr Chairman, if necessary we'll lodge those with the Commission. MR NGOBESE The policemen are also liars, maybe if we spoke to the Captain of the police we could try to establish as to what was happening but there are policemen and there is one who was dressed privately, and I know him from George Koch and I can identify him even now. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR TIPP We'll leave that all for argument Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, yes. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, I've already suggested to you that you charged forward into that portion of King George Street, that is was your intention to attack, that that is what the guards of the ANC saw and it is for that reason that shots were fired in defence of themselves and of Shell House. MR NGOBESE All I know is that we were going to the library building and we were shot by people who just wanted to kill some Zulus who were marching peacefully. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, as I understand your evidence, you're saying that there were no firearms whatsoever amongst your group and that no person in that group at any stage fired a firearm, is that right? MR NGOBESE That is correct. MR TIPP Where exactly, if you can recall, in King George Street did you taken cover? MR NGOBESE I got underneath a car and I got some cover but I got shot on the kneecap. MR TIPP Was that on the western side of that part of King George Street? MR NGOBESE It was on the northern part of King George Street, not the eastern part, not the western part but it was the northern part of King George Street. I don't know whether we do understand each other. MR TIPP Mr Ngobese, I'm not sure that we do understand each other and I'll try to clarify it with you. As you were moving down King George Street from the direction of Noord Street, did you take cover on the side of the road to your right or on the side of the road to your left? MR NGOBESE On the right-hand side. MR TIPP Was that into King George Street opposite Shell House? MR NGOBESE Yes, that is correct. MR TIPP You've been back to that scene, do you remember that there is a cafe, the fish and chip shop? MR NGOBESE No, I did not see that shop. Even now I don't know what is being sold. I know there's a lot of people and a lot of shops there but I don't have any clarity as to what is sold where. MR TIPP Do you remember whether it was a yellow car that you took cover under? MR NGOBESE It could have been yellow, it could have been red, but it was a relatively small car, I'm not sure about the colour, it's between red and yellow. MR TIPP I'm going to suggest to you that in the immediate vicinity of where you must have been on that description, there was a man from your group who was firing widely with an AK47 during the time of the shooting incident itself. MR NGOBESE I never saw that man. MR TIPP Just for the record again Mr Chairman, that would be the Mr Dias who gave that evidence, to whom our learned friends have referred from time to time. If that's not clear, it's not Mr Dias who was doing the shooting, he gave the evidence. Mr Ngobese, in preparation for you giving this evidence here today, did your legal representatives point out to you the ballistics evidence relating to shooting marks on and around Shell House? MR NGOBESE No, I wasn't. MR TIPP I'm going to suggest to you that that evidence indicates that a substantial number of shots were fired by people amongst the marchers during the course of that incident and that you must have been aware of that at the time. MR NGOBESE If we had gone to attack I could say I know that but because I wasn't armed or we weren't armed, I cannot say anything about that. Chairperson, Members of the Committee, I've got a problem with my knee, as I'm sitting I'm experiencing some pain. MR TIPP Mr Chairman, it would be convenient if the witness wants to stretch his leg, I can also just check to see what I need to put to him. If we could take a few minutes? CHAIRPERSON Yes. I'm sorry that you are suffering pain but we'll adjourn for a short while to enable you to feel better. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION AMOS NGOBESE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Are you feeling much better now? MR NGOBESE Yes, it's not as bad as before. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR TIPP Mr Chairman, I'm pleased to report that we've made use of the opportunity in the short adjournment to ...[no sound] the further questions and decided that they can all be left to argument. We will not put anything further to Mr Ngobese today. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TIPP CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR P A VAN WYK No re-examination Mr Chairman, except that I want to point out, as I will raise in argument later on, where the four shots are ...[indistinct] and then I just want to mention to you that it has been brought to my notice today that a policeman is at present being prosecuted for shooting at a Zulu at the Park Station. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, what has that got to do with me? MR P A VAN WYK No, well I think everybody at the inquest knew that there was a policeman who fired shots at a Zulu and a policeman is being prosecuted for that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that may well be so. You've got no questions to put to this witness? MR P A VAN WYK No, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR P A VAN WYK MR LAX Just one question please Mr Ngobese, you were quite specific, you said you didn't hear any shots from your group, did you hear any shots from any of the other groups? MR NGOBESE No, I did not hear. MR LAX Thanks Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ngobese, thank you very much, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairman, if another witness is to be heard, one of the relatives or some of the relatives of Mr Vilakazi who also died on the corner of King George and de Villiers Streets is present. It's the mother of Mr Vilakazi. Her name is Bashitshile, spelt: B-A-S-H-I-T-S-H-I-L-E and her first name is Mqanti, spelt: M-Q-A-N-T-I and her surname is Masikane, spelt: M-A-S-I-K-A-N-E. She is quite deaf and well on in years and she asked that her other son who is the brother of the deceased, assist her while she is giving evidence. If that could be done with the permission of the Committee. Her son is, for record purposes, Shayezakhe, spelt: S-H-A-Y-E-Z-A-K-H-E, Bethwell Vilakazi. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that should be arranged. MR PRETORIUS Thank you Chairperson. JUDGE NGCOBO Mr Pretorius, what language are your clients going to speak? What are your full names? MR VILAKAZI I am Shayesakhe Bethwell Vilakazi. JUDGE NGCOBO What is your other name? MRS MASIKANE Mqanti Vilakazi. JUDGE NGCOBO Can the lady hear or can't she hear completely? MR VILAKAZI After hearing this event and that she has lost her son, she consciousness and she fell sick for a very long time and she lost her hearing. When I talk to her I take a long time, you know she takes a long time before she gets to understand. JUDGE NGCOBO Do you shout when you talk to her? MR VILAKAZI Yes, I have to shout to make a point that she hears even though she may not hear whilst I'm talking or shouting. JUDGE NGCOBO Do you have any objections in taking the oath or will you convey everything that will be said to your mum exactly as it's being said? MR VILAKAZI No, I don't object to that, I will do that. JUDGE NGCOBO Do you confirm that the way you interpret to your mother you will interpret exactly as it's being said an nothing else? MR VILAKAZI Yes, I agree to that. JUDGE NGCOBO Please take the oath. SHAYESAKHE BETHWELL VILAKAZI (sworn states) MR BIZOS We would have no objection to the son giving the evidence in relation to personal details and family matters, it may have the effect - both saving time and not putting an elderly woman with an affliction to any difficulty. JUDGE NGCOBO To the extent that there may well be questions that my be directed to Mrs Vilakazi, is it not necessary for her to be sworn? MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] have heard from relatives of the people ...[intervention] JUDGE NGCOBO ...[inaudible] the process, we'd better do so. Please ask Mum if she doesn't have any objection insofar as taking an oath is concerned and if there may be any questions posed to her she will answer them as truthful as possible. INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. BASHITSHILE MQANTI MASIKANE (sworn states) JUDGE NGCOBO Yes, Mr Pretorius? EXAMINATION BY MR PRETORIUS I'm indebted to my learned friend and the first part of the questions, I think Mr Vilakazi can answer them all for us. Mr Vilakazi, did you know a person by the name Dunki Zeto Vilakazi? MR VILAKAZI I don't know any such person. MR PRETORIUS Did you have a brother who was also Vilakazi? MR VILAKAZI I have my brothers but I don't know any such name. MR PRETORIUS Where did your mother loose her son, do you know? MR VILAKAZI Please repeat your question, do you mean where she lost her son? MR PRETORIUS Did she have a son which died which you referred to, that son, do you know where he was killed? MR VILAKAZI Yes. When we are referring to the one at Shell House, that's the one I know, I don't know any other one. MR PRETORIUS I beg yours, what was his name? MR VILAKAZI His name was Sepiwe Knodugwyke Vilakazi. MR PRETORIUS How old was he when he died? MR VILAKAZI He was 30 years old. CHAIRPERSON Before we go any further, according to the documents placed before us, the name of the deceased is given as Danke Zetu Vilakazi, are we talking about the same person? MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairman, that is what I tried to clear up, I had the same information but maybe there was a misunderstand between me and the mother. This is the first time that her son was present today which I could communicate through him and it may be a misunderstanding. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, it may be correct perhaps to adjourn so that I can clarify this with her instead of ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON No, we don't have to, just ask the son. What was the name of your brother who died? I'm sorry but just give it to us again because I want to write it down. MR VILAKAZI Sepiwe Kondogwake Vilakazi. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR P A VAN WYK Mr Chairman, if I may assist, that body was given a number, body number 828 of 94 at the inquest proceedings, for purposes of the record. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. MR PRETORIUS Thank you Mr Chairman. You said he was 30 years old, was he married at that time? MR VILAKAZI Yes, he was 30 years old, what was your next question? MR PRETORIUS Was he married? The witness replied to the positive if I'm correct. MR VILAKAZI He was not married yet, he already had a child, a three months old infant and was preparing to get married. He had already paid the labola. MR PRETORIUS Was the three month old child his only child? MR VILAKAZI Yes, it's correct. MR PRETORIUS How old is Mrs Masikane? MR VILAKAZI I would like to go through the ID quickly and refer to it. MS KHAMPEPE I hear you referring to a Mrs Masikane, are you not making a mistake? MR PRETORIUS Her surname was given to me. JUDGE NGCOBO Whose surname? MS KHAMPEPE Whose surname? MR PRETORIUS The mother. JUDGE NGCOBO ...[inaudible] MR VILAKAZI ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. JUDGE NGCOBO This woman, is she Masikane, her surname? MR VILAKAZI Yes, that's her maiden surname. JUDGE NGCOBO Now forget about that, forget about the ID, tell us now about Masikane, is that her maiden surname? MR VILAKAZI Yes. INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone wasn't on. MR LAX Sorry, he was asking whether the witness was married to Vilakazi, just for the sake of the interpreter, he didn't hear that. JUDGE NGCOBO So this is Mrs Vilakazi. MR PRETORIUS Thank you member of the Committee. Mrs Vilakazi, how old are you now? MR VILAKAZI She was born in 1939, November 23rd. MR PRETORIUS Is her husband still alive? MR VILAKAZI No, he's not alive. MR PRETORIUS How many children does she have? MR VILAKAZI She only had one child. MR LAX Sorry, Mr Pretorius, there may have been a misunderstanding there, the deceased had one child but I'm not sure that it was necessarily conveyed to this witness how many children Mrs Vilakazi had. There may some confusion there. MR PRETORIUS How many children does Mrs Vilakazi have? MR VILAKAZI Mr Vilakazi has one child. She got married to my father's brother. JUDGE NGCOBO This is not your real biological mother isn't it? MR VILAKAZI Yes. JUDGE NGCOBO This Mum had one son? MR VILAKAZI Yes. INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. JUDGE NGCOBO Does that clear that? MR PRETORIUS Thank you Honourable Member. JUDGE NGCOBO Yes, carry on. MR PRETORIUS Who is supporting her now? MR VILAKAZI She is not supporting anyone. MR LAX The question was, who is supporting her? MR VILAKAZI She is not being supported by anyone, she earns her pension fund. MR PRETORIUS Prior to his death, did her son support her? MR VILAKAZI Please repeat your question. MR PRETORIUS Prior to his death during 1994, did her son support her? MR VILAKAZI Yes, that's true. MR PRETORIUS Can you just explain how her son's death affected her family life? MR VILAKAZI As I've already explained, the death of her son traumatised her so much and the entire family suffered that ordeal because he was the breadwinner and after she had the death of her son she lost consciousness immediately and after that she is suffering ailments of some kind and she is chronically ill and she lost her hearing as well, she can't hear properly. MR PRETORIUS Is she prepared to forgive the people that testified here for the death of her son? MR VILAKAZI She is not prepared. MR PRETORIUS I've got no further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRETORIUS JUDGE NGCOBO Mr Vilakazi, the question that the attorney asked, we would like to hear straight from Mrs Vilakazi as to what her comment is with regard to the question. MR VILAKAZI She says she's not prepared. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TIPP Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Vilakazi, please convey to Mrs Vilakazi that the fact of her son's death and her suffering is a matter of regret that we all share. MR VILAKAZI She says she has got absolutely not peace because that was the only son that she had. MR TIPP Does Mrs Vilakazi understand that her son died as a result of a wound from a sharp object like a spear and not because of a gunshot wound? MRS MASIKANE Nobody told me as to how he died, all I know is that he was shot. MR TIPP Please assure Mrs Vilakazi that her son did not die as a result of a gunshot wound and that nobody from the side of the ANC wielded the instrument that caused her son's death. MR VILAKAZI She can't hear, she seems to be experiencing some hearing problems. INTERPRETER He's relaying that to the witness. MR VILAKAZI She says she wants to know as to where and how did he get injured. MR TIPP Mr Chairman, perhaps that is a matter that my learned friends might more fully inform Mrs Vilakazi of in good time. We have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TIPP MR LAX Can you just explain to Mrs Vilakazi that the lawyers are suggesting that the lawyers who act for her explain that to her after this. CHAIRPERSON Now you're in a position to explain to your client how her son died. MR PRETORIUS We are aware of what wounds caused his death indeed Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRETORIUS As we can gather what happened, that during the shooting there was turmoil and people tried to run away etc., and in that process he was injured with a sharp object and he died there on the corner of King George and de Villiers, that is the best we can do. CHAIRPERSON Were you able to communicate that to her? MR PRETORIUS We tried our best but you can understand Mr Chairman as I said, this is the first time that her son came forward to assist us, and we will through him communicate that to her as well. CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR PRETORIUS May I just - as I understood from my learned friend Mr Tipp, the amnesty application also stands for this occasion so that there can be no doubt about that. MR TIPP Mr Chairman, it does. One does not know what potentially could be found on the basis such as a matter such as dolus eventualis. There was an indication in the inquest finding that although no ANC member had inflicted the wound, that perhaps nonetheless some culpability might attach. That's obviously not something that is necessarily accepted but the application is persisted with in respect of this victim also. CHAIRPERSON That clears that up does it? MR PRETORIUS Indeed Sir, I've got no further questions for this witness. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, Mr Vilakazi, thank you very much for your assistance, there will be no more questions put to your mother. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VAN WYK Mr Chairman, I would just like to ask some indication from the Committee as to what time the Committee is planning to sit today. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR VAN WYK Because the reason why I'm asking that is the next witness that is available here is Mr Majosi and he will take much longer than the previous witness has done. I have spoken to Mr Tipp and he also told me that he cannot foresee that he would finish with this witness today and I don't want, or I don't know whether the Committee would want a situation where a witness would give his evidence in chief and then stand over until the next hearing to be cross-examined. CHAIRPERSON Are there any other witnesses that are going to be called besides Mr Majosi? MR PRETORIUS Not from my side anymore Mr Chairman. MR HUMAN I have certainly got a witness and the same applied, it's a long witness, he will testify to the full merits of the actual happenings and I would foresee that the same would apply as far as cross-examination by the ANC is concerned. It's going to take quite some time. CHAIRPERSON So it's not a dependant? MR HUMAN No, it's indeed an eye-witness to what happened and he was injured on the scene as well Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON And the name of your witness? MR HUMAN Mr Bafana Konzuiese Mahlaba, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON If the name Bafana may have been repeated twice it might have meant something. MR HUMAN Hopefully it might have been a success story then Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And your witnesses name please? MR HUMAN It's Fanu Milendeni Majosi Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Are you aware of the fact that these witnesses are likely to take some considerable time? MR TIPP Mr Chairman, that is our view, yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Have you anything to say in this matter? MS PATEL Honourable Chairperson, no, except that I do agree that it's not preferable that we hear the evidence in chief of a witness now and the possibilities of the first available date for postponement would not be within the next two months, so I would prefer that the matter then stand down till then. CHAIRPERSON Gentlemen and Ladies, it does seem that we're not in a position to tell you when these hearings will be resumed. There are various difficulties in the way of telling you now to what date this matter is going to be adjourned and it does seem that we will have to rely on a mutual date to be agreed by all the parties concerned and that we should endeavour to arrive at such a mutual date as soon as possible, and if possible perhaps within a week from today. All the parties, you have a fair idea of your witnesses, how long it will take before they are available, those who are not available at present and so on. If Mr Dias is not available on the adjourned hearing we will just have to do without him. Will you take the necessary steps to communicate with counsel once you are in touch with the office as to when the Committee as constituted at present will be sitting and then communicate with counsel and finalise the date? MS PATEL Yes, I will, thank you Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR P A VAN WYK Honourable Chair, may I indicate, after consultation with some of my colleagues appearing on behalf of the objectors, we are of the view that we should try and set aside a week for completion and hearing of the remainder of the evidence and the argument if any. I would suggest that at this point in time we should be looking at another open week for purposes of finalising this matter. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that's a good suggestion. May I also suggest, considering the amount of detail that has emerged during the questioning of witnesses and the reference to passages in the inquest proceedings in other previous documents as so on, that if between now and then counsel prepare written argument which they may supplement when they address us? It would assist us because when the time comes for this Committee to consider its decision sometimes a lot of time has elapsed and we've done a lot of other applications in the meanwhile and so on and so on, so I'll be pleased if it is possible for counsel to have prepared written submissions. They needn't be lengthy provided they draw our attention to the salient points and make salient reference because all in all we were inundated with something like fourteen volumes of lever arch files. We would welcome your co-operation in that regard. It remains of me to thank all of you for the way in which things have moved so far and the Committee is now going to adjourn and resume on a date to be arranged mutually between all the concerned parties. The Committee now adjourns. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS