amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-05-20 JOHANNESBURG SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE 5552/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54750&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/joburg/shell8.htm MS MORAKA Chairperson the next applicant is the 12th applicant Patrick Smangaliso Simelane. Chairperson Mr Simelane's going to testify in Zulu. PATRICK SMANGALISO SIMELANE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS MORAKA Mr Simelane is it correct that you've submitted and application for amnesty and that it is from page 137 to page 143? MR SIMELANE That is true. MS MORAKA And with your application you submitted an affidavit that you attested to from 143A to 143D? MR SIMELANE That is correct. MS MORAKA Is it further correct that your application, the form for application, you did not fill in with your own hand, under your own hand. Is that correct? MR SIMELANE That is correct. MS MORAKA Would you tell the committee why it is that somebody else had to fill in this for you? MR SIMELANE On that day when I was supposed to fill out my application for amnesty my arms, both of them, were injured so I could not fill my application form. MS MORAKA Do you however accept or confirm the correctness of the application and the affidavit ? MR SIMELANE That is correct. MS MORAKA Can we for a moment move away from your application Mr Simelane and talk about your personal particulars for the record. You were born on the 22nd of September 1970 in Soweto. Is that correct? MR SIMELANE That is correct. MS MORAKA You grew up in KwaZulu Natal but attended high school in Soweto and at the age of 13 you were detained for 5 days for having part of a boycott against age limitation? MR SIMELANE That is correct. MS MORAKA In 1984 you became a member of SOYCO and in 1985 you left the country? MR SIMELANE That is correct. MS MORAKA You received military training in Angola and a commander course. Is that correct? MR SIMELANE That is correct. MS MORAKA In 1986 you came back into the country, arrested in 1987, charged with murder, escaped from prison or from hospital, rearrested, another charge was added to this one, you were acquitted of the murder charge and convicted on possession of explosives. Is that correct? MR SIMELANE That is correct. MS MORAKA 1988. Is that correct? MR SIMELANE That is correct. MS MORAKA Sorry Chair, this is 1989. You were then sentenced to one year of imprisonment, five thereof suspended. You were however released in 1990 in terms of the Groote Schuur understanding? MR SIMELANE That is true. MS MORAKA Upon your release you continued with your studies and you matriculated? MR SIMELANE That is true. MS MORAKA During the period 1990 to 1993 you worked for the ANC, for want of a better word, in the Welfare Department? MR SIMELANE That is true. MS MORAKA And in 1993 you were redeployed and you went to the Regional Headquarters of the ANC? MR SIMELANE That is correct. MS MORAKA In 1993 the Regional Headquarters moved to Lance Hall. Is that correct? MR SIMELANE Yes that's true. MS MORAKA The Regional offices are at the corner of Jeppe and Von Weilligh Street. Is that correct? MR SIMELANE That is true. MS MORAKA The main entrance is along Jeppe Street? MR SIMELANE That is correct. MS MORAKA And the parkade entrance is along Von Weilligh Street? MR SIMELANE That is true. MS MORAKA Can I now draw your attention to your application and the statement that you made. Is it correct that you filed the same statement for the inquest hearing? MR SIMELANE That is true. MS MORAKA On the 28th of March 1994 you were employed by the ANC at the Regional Offices as a security guard. Is that correct? MR SIMELANE That is true. MS MORAKA And on this particular day of the 28th of March 1994, you state that you had received certain information. Can you tell the committee what information you'd received and from whom? MR SIMELANE As it is know that there was this big publicity that there will be this campaign to boycott the election. On the 27th, the evening of that day, I met Africa Khumalo. He was the one who was the head of security Regional Office ANC, that is. He explained to me that as there will be this march, there are details that we have gathered in as far as the attack of the ANC offices. MS MORAKA You arrived at work on the 28th at approximately 07:30. Is that correct? MR SIMELANE That is true. MS MORAKA Were you armed? MR SIMELANE No I did not have any firearm in my possession. MS MORAKA Do you possess your own firearm? MR SIMELANE Yes I had my firearm. MS MORAKA Why did you not have your firearm with you when you went to work? MR SIMELANE It so happened that day when I was leaving my house in the morning, there was already some chaos in the location, it was around 6 am. For that reason I decided to leave my firearm with my younger brother to protect my family. MS MORAKA An incident occurred during the early hours of the 28th in front of Lancet Hall. I will not draw your attention to that incident but however, thereafter you were deployed in the basement of Lancet Hall. Is that correct? After the incident. MR SIMELANE That is correct. MS MORAKA With what were you armed? MR SIMELANE I had a 12 gauge shotgun. MS KHAMPEPE Ms Moraka, what incident are you referring to, for completeness sake? MS MORAKA As the committee pleases. Would you perhaps very briefly tell us about the incident at 08:00 at the entrance of Lance Hall in Jeppe Street? MR SIMELANE To briefly Explain it so happened that I was on the 5th floor, I heard some noise and I left that place I went down to see as to what was happening down there. When I got there I found other ANC guards that I will not be in a position to remember or recall their names. They were standing there with a group of people that had just fled into the building. There were certain men having traditional weapons in their possession, they approached and they stood right next to the entrance of the ANC offices. As they were still standing there they were chanting their slogans, war songs. Immediately one of this men got out and pointed us with his spear and said: "The dogs are going to die today", and one of the guards that I was standing next to by the name of Silo drew out his firearm and shot in the air and he went back to the other group, that other men. That is what happened that day. CHAIRPERSON The person that fired, what was his name again? MR SIMELANE His name is Silo. CHAIRPERSON Where did he fire? MR SIMELANE He shot upwards, he fired upwards. MS MORAKA To correct that, at that stage you only knew his name as Silo but you now know that he is Mr Magagula? MR SIMELANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So what happened after this man named Silo fired upwards? MR SIMELANE The other guy who had an assegai ran back to the other group and the rest of the group proceeded downwards, I don't know to which direction. I don't know where they were going to. CHAIRPERSON Yes very well. MS MORAKA You had your shotgun with you at that stage is it not? MR SIMELANE Yes that is correct. MS MORAKA You are now at a stage when you're deployed by Mr Khumalo to the parkade. Whom did you find there? MR SIMELANE I got the late Vilikazi (?), he was also an ANC guard. MS MORAKA (inaudible) MR SIMELANE That is correct. MS MORAKA What kind of weapon did he have with him? MR SIMELANE He had a CZ83 nine millimetre. MS MORAKA Can you tell the committee what you and Mr Vilikazi were doing in the basement before the incident at 10:00 occurred? MR SIMELANE We were patrolling the basement. At times we would go up to the gate and go back right into the basement. We went patrolling up and down keeping a lookout as to what could possibly happen to the building. MS MORAKA Is it correct that the entrance to the parkade is regulated, or access is regulated by an electronically manipulated gate? MR SIMELANE That is correct. MS MORAKA There is an electronically operated gate where you have to use a card to gain access? MR SIMELANE ...(inaudible) MS MORAKA And is it further correct that there is another outer gate that was open, that is next to the pavement, closer to the pavement than this other electronically operated gate? MR SIMELANE That is correct. MS MORAKA That on the 28th of March that gate was open and people had to use the electronically operated gate to obtain access? MR SIMELANE That is true. MS MORAKA Can you tell the committee what then happened at approximately 10:00 hours? MR SIMELANE As we were still at the basement we heard some gunshots outside and I wouldn't know as to for how long the gunshots went. At that stage we waited for quite a few minutes, that is myself and Vusi, and when there was relative quiet we proceeded to the gate. As we peeped through the gate we saw a large group of people who had an assortment of weapons. They had assegai's, knobkierries, pangas and they were proceeding towards the gate. As they were coming towards the gate we tried to retreat, that is myself and Vusi. These people pushed this gate forcefully, that is when I started to cock the gun that I had in my possession. As I cocked the gun they continued to push the gate forcefully and the gate sort of opened slightly, I started shooting when I realised that they were pushing the gate open and when I fired my gun they ran away from the gate, they proceeded towards the pavement and they got scattered. We continued to retreat whilst at the same time cocking my gun and I was still cocking my gun I could hear there was gunfire now, an exchange of gunfire outside. As that continued I saw one of the street police as well as another policeman who formed some sort of a blockade at the gate and they faced the opposite building and they also took out their guns. I decided that I was not going to go back towards the gate. The gunfire continued up to such a stage that there was relative quiet and there was another traffic cop as well as a policeman. I waited for quite some time ... (intervention) MS MORAKA Can you go back to the shot or shots that you fired. How many did you fire? MR SIMELANE Once. MS MORAKA You state that the people ran away, did you see anybody getting injured or killed at the gate? MR SIMELANE I never saw any person falling or dying. MS MORAKA Thereafter then what happened? MR SIMELANE As I've already explained that at the time I was reversing, actually reversing and I went to stand on the other side of the basement and I saw a traffic officer as well as a policeman, they were in uniform, they also had their guns. They were facing the front building of the opposite building. MS MORAKA Did you remain in the basement for the rest of the day or what did you do? MR SIMELANE I would go from the basement to the toilet. I could say that I remained at the basement most of the time but not all the time. MS MORAKA Did you make a report of this incident to your seniors? MR SIMELANE Yes, there was a time when I went out looking for Mr Khumalo but I couldn't get hold of him, I only got him late that afternoon and I explained to him what had happened at the basement earlier on. JUDGE NGCOBO Is that Africa Khumalo? MR SIMELANE Yes that is correct. MS MORAKA You know, you have been informed Mr Simelane and you heard at the inquest that there is a gentleman who died outside, 3 meters away from the entrance of the parkade, Mr Nkonko. Did you see Mr Nkonko fall, did you know about the fact that he was killed 3 meters away from the gate? MR SIMELANE With regard to Mr Nkonko's matter, I knew it quite a long time after the incident itself that a person had died, I never saw him falling. Even the following day on the 29th of March. I remember this being mentioned that there was a body that was discovered within close proximity of the gate, but it was just a passing matter, I never paid much attention to it. MS MORAKA Mr Simelane you have applied for amnesty, why have you applied for amnesty? MR SIMELANE As I've mentioned in my amnesty application that I did not personally see a person getting injured or being killed on that particular day but as it could be found at a later stage that I overreacted or I exceeded the bounds of self defense, that is why I'm applying for amnesty. MS MORAKA You were asked in the application what the political objective it is that you sought to achieve and you mentioned that in paragraph 10.a. Can you in you own words tell the committee what the political objective was, or what was your political objective? MR SIMELANE As it's common knowledge, evidence has been tendered before this committee that the aim of the marchers was that they wanted to obstruct or destruct the elections that were supposed to take place during 1994 and as a person who had a history of fighting for democracy or being a freedom fighter fighting for a new South Africa, it was disturbing to me that there were some elements who were bound and hell bent on destructing the up and coming elections and this group had been, from time in memorial people who didn't care about people's rights and democracy so that quite disturbed me that they wanted to derail the process which was going to lead to the elections by attacking the Shell House and possibly killing members or people who were working there, so I realised ... (intervention) MS MORAKA The interpreter said Shell House. Did you say Shell House? Please continue. MR SIMELANE As I've already explained that it was my dream that we should have a new South Africa and I could see that my dream was now going to be destroyed if this people were going to gain access and be able to kill a number of people inside the building and I could site a number of examples whereby people who are freedom fighters or people who fight for democracy were going to be killed and I realised that if I was just going to sit back and not do anything to protect the head offices of the African National Congress, as well as the leaders and the ordinary people who were office workers who were non-political people who used that building, were also going to get injured and that was going to eat away at my conscience if I sat back and did nothing to protect the people who were inside there. MS MORAKA I'm sorry Mr Simelane, can I take you back again. In the basement did Mr Vilikazi fire any shots? MR SIMELANE According to my recollection I do not remember him firing, I think he did not fire. MS MORAKA Thank you Chairperson those are the questions for this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MORAKA MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairman, Mr Bizos indeed caught us unawares to day when he withdrew the application of the applicant who would have testified next. As you are well aware, the record of the inquest proceedings is very - it amounts to a lot of pages and we only bring the pages of the applicants or evidence that we anticipate are going to be proceeded with on that particular day. We could never anticipate, in the circumstances, that this witness would testify today. CHAIRPERSON You've heard his evidence, you can question him about his evidence his given now and I'm not going to stop you questioning him on the record when you've got it. MR PRETORIUS Well Mr Chairman it will be very difficult for me because I haven't prepared at all and I know that he did testify during the particular inquest. There's one aspect that I can put to him which I can recall very clearly but then I'm just going to put it very briefly to him. CHAIRPERSON I would rather not do that. I'll give you the chance to prepare. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Pretorius, on that same note I hope you will also appreciate Mr Bizos' difficulty insofar as sequence in which you intend calling your witnesses is concerned and we'll also afford him appropriate time to prepare accordingly. I appreciate the difficulty that you are in and I think you should therefore attempt to prepare accordingly. MR PRETORIUS CHAIRPERSON I trust that that matter will be sorted out so that we don't have any other hiccups tomorrow about complaining that we didn't know which witnesses were to be called and they didn't know how to prepare for them so will that please be sorted out. Alright. We're about to adjourn now, is there something you wish to say. MR DORFLING Mr Chairman may I at this point in time just indicate that we did make use of the time we had earlier this week, that morning when we started sitting late, and the legal teams appearing on behalf of the objectors tried to work out a sequence and get an indication of which witnesses would be advisable to call. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DORFLING We then decided that we think it's advisable for the committee to hear the evidence of a number of witnesses, six of them, all together a Mr Dias, Mr Jimmy Stevens, Sgt Potgieter, Mr Mpanga whose one of the objectors, Mrs Ntombela who is the relative of one of the deceased and also Mrs Langa. Can I at this point in time already indicate the logistical difficulties we have. As far as Mr Dias is concerned, we took up the last known address that was available of him from the Attorney General's office, we spoke to the investigating officer in the Shell House inquest. At present it seems like Mr Dias is not staying at the address, his last know address. We have at this point in time got difficulty in locating him. As far as Mr Stevens is concerned, Mr Stevens is currently overseas and he'll only be returning on the 23rd of June this year. We have got his address, but it's no use to try and serve a subpoena on him, we know he won't secure his presence this week. Then there's Sgt Potgieter who I believe is presently attending a course until this coming week, Friday the 22nd of May, he's also therefore not available, so as far as those first three witnesses are concerned we are having those difficulties from a logistical point of view. We'll do our best to secure at least the presence of other witnesses who might be able to assist. We thought it might be a good idea to start with these witnesses, that it's advisable to that we start with them, but we are having these difficulties. JUDGE NGCOBO I think the request, for the purposes of preparing cross examinations is that if you could indicate to the applicant's legal representative the sequence in which they will be called, as far as that has been established, so that they know who will be the first witness that we're dealing with. CHAIRPERSON You can do that among yourselves, we don't have to be told. Very well, I'm now going to adjourn till tomorrow morning at 09:30. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS