amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-10-30 KIMBERLEY 4 SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA 3137/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54758&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/kim/mohase.htm CHAIRPERSON I suppose we will now be proceeding to the next application which will be that of Mr Gift Sekitla Moses Mohasa. Mr Mthembu? MR MTHEMBU Thank you Mr Chair, I will call the applicant to the witness stand. MR MPSHE GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Full names? Your full names? MR MOHASA Gift Sekitla Moses Mohasa. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mthembu? MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON As you wish. MR MTHEMBU May I suggest then that we start with the Kroonstad incident Mr Chair? Mr Mohasa, you are the applicant in this matter, is that correct? MR MOHASA MR MTHEMBU Is it further correct that you are applying for amnesty with regard to a murder that was committed on the 11th of February 1991 in Gelukwaarts in Kroonstad and that the deceased there was ...[indistinct] Albert Ntema? MR MOHASA MR MTHEMBU At the time of the commission of this offence, were you a member of any political organisation or party? MR MOHASA I was a member of the ANC Youth League. MR MTHEMBU For how long had you been a member of the ANC Youth League? MR MOHASA I started to be a member in 1990. MR MTHEMBU Were you an office bearer or just an ordinary member? MR MOHASA I was just an ordinary member. MR MTHEMBU Is that the only structure that you were attached or belonged to in Kroonstad at the time? MR MOHASA I was also a member of the self-defence unit in Kroonstad. MR MTHEMBU Thank you Sir. In your own words would you explain to the Committee what happened or transpired on the 11th of February 1991 when the deceased was killed? MR MOHASA In February 1991, I was from a patrol and all the members of the unit were present, then we saw a Kombi, then our leader said we should go into a Kombi because the Three Million gang members have attacked. We went there - when we arrived we spread around to observe, then we had whistles, then when we heard the sound of the whistle we should go to that point, then we found a commander facing a gang member of the Three Million - attacking him. After we have seen that he is attacking our commander with a knife, we shot him. MR MTHEMBU Just before you proceed Sir, it is common cause that the deceased or that the weapons that were used to kill the deceased herein were inter alias a .38 special revolver, 7.65 weapon and a 9mm and also a knife or sharp instrument was used when he was killed. MR MOHASA I was having the .38 special revolver. MR MTHEMBU Thank you Sir, you may then proceed. MR MOHASA MR MTHEMBU Just before you proceed Sir, this commander that was being attacked, do you know his name? MR MOHASA Yes. MR MTHEMBU What was his name or what is his name? MR MOHASA His name is Machaba Petros Thulo. MR MTHEMBU Furthermore, according to the record in the court accord, the deceased was attacked from three sides, from the left-hand side, the right-hand side and from the front. Now, you say you shot him from the side, will you tell the Committee from which side - the left side, the right side or in front? MR MOHASA I came from the left-hand side. MR MTHEMBU All right, proceed Sir. MR MOHASA MR MTHEMBU According to the Judgement in your case, it would appear that you and your other comrades first assembled in ...[indistinct] where apparently this attack on the Three Million was planned. What do you say about that? MR MOHASA MR MTHEMBU Would you confirm that the area called Trokbou, was a Three Million controlled area? MR MOHASA Yes, I believe. MR MTHEMBU When you say you got into the car, for what reason or purpose did you get into the car - did anyone tell you? CHAIRPERSON Do you mean before the stabbing or after? Do you mean before the incident or immediately after? MR MTHEMBU Before the incident Mr Chair. MR MOHASA The reason was that the Three Million gang members are attacking Gelukwaarts. MR MTHEMBU Do you still recall how many times did you personally shoot the deceased? MR MOHASA INTERPRETER The interpreters could not get the last part. MR MTHEMBU Will you please repeat the last part Mr Mohasa? MR MOHASA MR MTHEMBU Sir, tell the Committee, what political objective did you sought to achieve by committing this offence? MR MOHASA Our political objective which we decided to achieve was to bring peace and that peace would live peacefully and all political parties or movements would have the right to canvass and call meetings and that even students should be able to organise their meetings or do anything which they would like, like rent boycotts and that people should be able to participate in the boycotts if they have that interest or to participate in the marches or call meetings for civics. And because the Three Million gang was operating in those areas, those things were not possible to be done, they were stabbing people. When people started to assemble, they were to go there and assault and harass people - that is why there was nothing we could do other than defend the community. MR MTHEMBU What is the justification for regarding your act to an act committed with a political objective? MR MOHASA Those people were against the political activities of other organisations, people who were involved in politics. Members of various organisations, they were targeted by members of the Three Million gang. By so doing, even our organisation was at risk because our members were targeted by these people and then even the whole community was targeted by the Three Million gang. MR MTHEMBU Were you acting as a result of an order given by your organisation and if so, could you tell the Committee who gave the order and when? MR MOHASA That is so. The instruction from the organisation that we should protect the community, the self-defence unit was formed because the community was attack and members of the various political organisations were attacked. The Executive Committee made a plea that there should be self-defence units so that be able to protect members and the community at large. MR MTHEMBU Now, the order that you say was given by your organisation, was this an ...[indistinct] or was - are you saying it was an order given with regard to this specific incident - could you explain to the Committee. CHAIRPERSON MR MOHASA When we arrived at our camp, the message arrived that the Three Million gang is attacking the area, therefore we went so that we should go and protect the people who were attacked. CHAIRPERSON Who said: "Let us go"? MR MOHASA As a unit we were having a commander. CHAIRPERSON Who is that? MR MOHASA Machaba Thulo. MS KHAMPEPE Did you understand the question well Mr Mohasa? Did your commander tell you to get into the Kombi to go to Gelukwaarts? MR MOHASA Yes, that is so. MS KHAMPEPE MR MOHASA We were together with him in the camp, then he said we received a message that people were attacked at Gelukwaarts, attacked by the Three Million gang. MS KHAMPEPE So, when you got the message in your camp that the Three Million gang were attacking at Gelukwaarts, you still had your commander with you - Mr Thulo was with you when you got that message? MR MOHASA The message - he is the one who received the message. MS KHAMPEPE MR MOHASA We left in a Kombi, we drove to Gelukwaarts. On our arrival we took different directions to investigate the direction of the attack and we assembled together and when we assembled, we found our commander being attacked - that is where we started the shooting. MR MTHEMBU Now, you testified that you were also a member of the self-defence unit. MR MOHASA That is correct. MR MTHEMBU Now, was the task or the purpose of the self-defence unit not to defend rather than to be on the offensive? MR MOHASA The task of the self-defence unit was to protect. MR MTHEMBU Do you have anything further that you wish to add with regard to this incident Mr Mohasa? MR MOHASA MR MTHEMBU And is that your evidence with regard to this incident? ADV DE JAGER He was also convicted in this connection of pointing a firearm and possession of a firearm and ammunition and for not attending court. MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON Mr Mohasa, you were convicted of illegal possession of a firearm, is that correct? MR MOHASA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Was it the same firearm that you used in shooting the deceased in this case or was it a different firearm? MR MOHASA It is the same gun. CHAIRPERSON Where did you get this gun from? MR MOHASA I was given - comrade Victor gave it to me, ...[indistinct] from Daveyton. CHAIRPERSON For what purpose was it given to you? MR MOHASA CHAIRPERSON Was it given to you in your capacity as a member of the SDU? MR MOHASA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR MOHASA CHAIRPERSON MR MOHASA I was found guilty by pointing a person with a firearm, that is when we were attacked by the police, then yes, I did shoot. CHAIRPERSON Where was this - in Kroonstad? MR MOHASA That was in Kroonstad at Pumalung location. CHAIRPERSON Who did you point with this firearm - a policeman? MR MOHASA CHAIRPERSON What was happening? MR MOHASA We were attacked, then I was shot in that incident. CHAIRPERSON By the police? MR MOHASA Yes, that is correct - by the police. CHAIRPERSON Was it during a robbery or what? MR MOHASA No, we were attacked by the police - I was shot in that incident on that day. CHAIRPERSON Why were the police attacking you? MR MOHASA We believed that the police were supporting the Three Million gang to harass the community and then because the police knew that the - our bases. When they leave from the police station to do patrols, they would do only those patrols in Pumalung because our bases were there. And then again on that day of the attack, we heard sounds of the whistles and then when we went outside we heard gunshots and the police were shooting and then I was shot on that day. CHAIRPERSON I see. This whistle, was it an arrangement in the area which you people were protecting? That if there was an attack imminent or something happening, the person would blow a whistle to call for help or what? What was the position with this whistle? MR MOHASA CHAIRPERSON People had whistles at their places? MR MOHASA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mthembu, I think we have covered the pointing and the possession of the firearm and the ammunition. MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON You can proceed to the next one. MR MTHEMBU Mr Mohasa, is it further correct that you were also convicted of murder and attempted murder of an incident which occurred in Daveyton in Gauteng? MR MOHASA That is correct. MR MTHEMBU Is it further correct that the said incident occurred on the 1st of December 1990 and that the deceased in the matter was one Esrom Hapane and that on the second count of attempted murder the victim was one Casium David Gwete? MR MOHASA That is correct. MR MTHEMBU Sir, were you given an order by an organisation or any person to commit these two offences and if so, who gave you the order? MR MOHASA The instructions to commit these incidents were given during the time of the fight when it was intensified between the comrades and the Million gang. The Executive Committee of the African National Congress in Kroonstad gave these orders that members of the Three Million because they are attacking people and harassing people, we should defend the community against them... MR MTHEMBU Sir, with regard to the Daveyton incident, did you personally know the victims or not? MR MOHASA I did not know the victims. MR MTHEMBU Did you know which political party they belonged to? MR MOHASA MR MTHEMBU Did you meet them for the first time at the tavern that day or not? MR MOHASA That is correct, it was for the first time. MR MTHEMBU And was there an argument or a fight between yourself and them? MR MOHASA The argument was there because I was accused that I am chasing a certain person whom I did not know. MR MTHEMBU Would you then Sir in your own words explain in full to the Committee why did you have to kill the deceased Esrom Hapane? CHAIRPERSON I think it would be better for us to follow if you were to first tell us what happened. MR MTHEMBU Thank you Mr Chair. Would you tell the Committee what happened on that day, the 1st of December 1990 at the tavern where you met the deceased and Mr Gwete. MR MOHASA Bennie Sitibe was not found for the whole day and I left by myself and a girl who accommodated us that other side. When we arrived at the tavern we enquired about Bennie Sitibe and we found the relative called Pat Namami, we asked him and he told us that Bennie Sitibe went out, he would come back and we sat. After a while we realised that he was not coming back and I told this lady to leave. Even before we could reach the exit these guys arrived and they accused me of having chased one of their friends and just there a fight broke because I did not know what they were accusing me of and their manner of approach gave me a suspicion - I saw them that they full of fighting spirits. The deceased stabbed me behind because he a knife in his possession and he held me with my hands and the others were hitting me with their fists. I managed to open his hands and I saw this knife and I got hold of him and I defended myself with that knife. And because the deceased was more brave than the others, it was discovered that he was the person that I stabbed many a times. And when the others ran away, I also ran away. MR MTHEMBU Could you then tell the Committee why was it necessary for you to kill the deceased. MR MOHASA It was not my intention to kill the deceased, I was defending myself against an attack launched at me - it was not my intention to kill him. MR MTHEMBU Now Mr Mohasa, this incident occurred in Daveyton and the Three Million was operating from Kroonstad, on what basis or how do you link the victims to the Three Million? MR MOHASA I link the two incidents because Bennie Sitibe, the person who was with me has a brother called Machangani and his brother used to visit Daveyton, during his visits he was a member of the Three Million and Machangani and the deceased knew each other very well, in other words, the deceased and Machangani were one. At one stage I had a feeling that Bennie was also involved in the plan of their killing. I went back to Kroonstad and I appealed - I reported what happened in Daveyton and it was discovered that during my stay there Bennie was not there, it was Machangani, in other words, it was planned that I should be killed. CHAIRPERSON Why did anybody come to that conclusion that Bennie and Machangani had planned to kill you Daveyton - it was their plan? MR MOHASA MS KHAMPEPE Were you supposed to have a meeting with the East Rand SDU members at that tavern where this incident took place? MR MOHASA I went to the Tavern to look for Bennie Sitibe. MS KHAMPEPE Where was your meeting supposed to take place? MR MOHASA Our meeting was supposed to take place ... INTERPRETER The last part of the answer was not audible enough. MS KHAMPEPE MR MOHASA Our meeting was supposed to take place at Tokohsa. MR MTHEMBU Mr Chair, may I approach the applicant to speak a little louder. MR MOHASA Thank you. MR MTHEMBU Mr Mohasa, how do you come to the conclusion that Machangani used to visit Daveyton and was well acquainted with the area? MR MOHASA MR MTHEMBU On reading the Judgement in this particular case, it is said therein that it would appear that the fight that ensued between you and the victims was over a cigarette and a girl, do you have any comment to make regarding that statement? MR MOHASA Yes. Can I please explain one issue? When we arrived to look for Bennie, these guys were sitting drinking beer and their cigarette boxes were on the table and there was no reason to fight for a cigarette because they had their cigarettes on the table - they would be smoking while drinking. And about this issue of this girl - of the girl, it was impossible really to fight for the girl - I know the husband to this girl and I know that this girl had a child and I did not have any suspicion that among those guys there was one who was going out with this girl and I was accommodated at her home. MR MTHEMBU MR MOHASA MR MTHEMBU The people who were with the deceased at that time testified in court that prior to the fight between yourself and the deceased, the deceased did not have any weapon with him, can you make any comment? MR MOHASA They were saying that maybe because they were misleading the court but according to me I took the knife from the deceased, he attacked me from behind and we battled until I got the knife from him. MR MTHEMBU Mr Gwete the victim in the attempted murder charge, testified in court that when went to enquire from you why you were stabbing the deceased, without saying any word you instantly attacked him and stabbed him on the neck. Do you have any comment to make? MR MOHASA ADV DE JAGER When the deceased was grabbing hold of you from behind, was he using both hands? MR MOHASA Yes, but just towards the shoulders. ADV DE JAGER And in which hand did he have the knife at that stage? MR MOHASA I would not say because his hands were joined together, now it would be impossible to tell whether it was on the left or the right hand. MS KHAMPEPE Were the other three who were attacking whilst the deceased was holding your hands from behind, armed with any kind of weaponry? MR MOHASA I could not see properly because we were outside and it was already dark but I think some of them had weapons. MS KHAMPEPE MR MOHASA They attacked me when we were leaving the tavern, before we could get out of the gate they came from behind and they accused me of having chased one of their companions which is someone I do not know. MS KHAMPEPE But how were you attacked? Were you slapped, were you kicked? MR MOHASA MS KHAMPEPE I merely wanted to find out what form the attack assumed, whether you were attacked physically by the use of their hands, whether you were kicked. Are you not in a position to tell us? MR MOHASA They used their hands and they kicked me because four of them were assaulting me, the one was holding me and the three were assaulting me. MS KHAMPEPE How long did this attack last? MR MOHASA MS KHAMPEPE So when you took the deceased knife they ran away? MR MOHASA After taking the knife from the deceased I started stabbing the person who was in front of me - I think it is Gwete and after stabbing him he moved back and the deceased came and he acted as if he was the leader, he was showing ...[indistinct]. And we battled and I overpowered him because I had a knife and when he fell the rest of them ran away. MS KHAMPEPE MR MOHASA I think they were in the vicinity because when this incident took place they were surrounding me. MS KHAMPEPE Yes, and they being in the vicinity they stood there and did nothing when initially they had started by attacking you, they actually stood back and watched you stabbing the deceased? MR MOHASA MS KHAMPEPE You really believe these people had been sent to kill you? MR MOHASA I believe so because we were staying next to the hostel and that is the stronghold of the IFP, now I think these people have a contact with Machangani because Machangani used to visit that area and he was a member of the Three Million - I think they were sent. MS KHAMPEPE Thank you Mr Mthembu, you may proceed. MR MTHEMBU Thank you Committee member. Mr Mohasa, I would like to refer you to page 64 of the bundle, it will be line 7. "Mpho reported it to him and to his comrades. They decided to ignore it, he then left the house, he went to the toilet and when came out of the toilet the accused confronted him. The accused had a knife in his hand and wanted to stab him with the knife. He managed to evade the accused, ran out of the gate and the accused pursued him. In the street the accused turned around - all the people were still inside the house at that stage" MR MOHASA MR MTHEMBU Mr Mohasa, do you have anything further you wish to add regarding this application? MR MOHASA And this incident really embarrasses me, I am really sorry - it was not my intention, I was just defending myself. Maybe if I did not defend myself I could be the dead one. That will be all from me. MR MTHEMBU Thank you Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE Mr Mohasa, I want you to have a look at the letter on page 29, there is a letter sent to our offices responding to questions by your legal representative and the letter is signed by your legal representative at the end. I just want you to have a look at it and tell me whether that is the letter that was written during consultation with you. MR MOHASA MR MPSHE Now, that letter is a response to our letter sent to you which will be found on page 96 of the bundle - for the convenience of the Committee. On page 96 of the bundle, those are the questions sent to him and he responded by way of the letter on page 29. Now lets go to your answer number 2 on that letter, page 29 where you were asked whether you knew the victims and your answer was: "Applicant does not know however, he believed that the two victims had been hired or sent to kill him" Do you see that? Do you see that? CHAIRPERSON MR MPSHE It has been translated for him into Sesotho or perhaps I should read out for the translator to catch and convey to him. I will read that number 2 on page 29. "Applicant does not know however, he believed that the two victims had been hired or sent to kill him by one Oupa Kisitibe also known as Machangani who was a member of the Three Million gang" Did you hear that one? MR MOHASA Yes, I heard that. MR MPSHE Now, just tell the Committee what made believe that the victims were members of the Three Million gang. MR MOHASA I think these people were sent, not necessary that they were the members of Three Million because they reside in the Daveyton and the Three Million reside in Kroonstad. I think they were sent by Oupa Machangani who is the brother to Sitibe who was a member of the Three Million, I think he is the person who sent these guys to attack me in Daveyton because I was in Daveyton. MR MPSHE Can you ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Could I - but they not sent, you found them in the tavern, they were already sitting there drinking. MR MOHASA Can I please be given a little chance to explain? We were accommodated at a house and the tavern is three houses from where we were accommodated. The first house where I went to look for Benny Sitibe is in that tavern and when I arrived there I saw those chaps and it was my first time to see them there because I used to sit at the front stoep and people - I saw them when they - I saw the people when they were passing - going to that area, it was my first time to see them. MS KHAMPEPE I think the problem that we have Mr Mohasa is, if they had been sent to kill you, how did they know that you would be coming to that tavern on that particular day and at that particular time? MR MOHASA I was looking for Benny Sitibe and when I left the house I was in the company of the girl who stayed where we were accommodated and when we arrived there I asked Petina Mani who is a relative to Benny Sitibe - he was in the company of these chaps and when I asked where Benny Sitibe was, they said Benny Sitibe was out, he was coming back. In other words he was sitting with them and I stayed for quite some time thinking that he would come back, he never came back and that is when I decided to leave and when we left this whole incident started. MR MPSHE MR MOHASA Yes, I knew he was a member of the Three Million gang. MR MPSHE MR MOHASA MR MPSHE MR MOHASA That is correct. MR MPSHE MR MOHASA Machangani resides in Kroonstad, in Daveyton it is their relative. MR MPSHE But Machangani would have know that you were in Daveyton because you went home with his brother Benny, not so? MR MOHASA When we left it was not known that we are leaving and our destination was also not known, we left quietly. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Mpshe, do you have questions which will adduce favourable evidence in support of the applicant in respect of this particular incident? MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, there is none absolutely. CHAIRPERSON I think maybe move on to deal with the other incident, if you have got any questions - the first incident that he dealt with. MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Do you have any re-examination Mr Mthembu? MR MTHEMBU None Mr Chair, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION B Y MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Mthembu, where is Mr Monyake? MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON Can he come back please, there is something that I would like to clear up with you which I forgot. CHAIRPERSON You are still under oath Mr Mohasa. GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON You were asked as to whether you knew the deceased that you shot and killed with your special revolver and you said something like: "Yes you knew him, you also knew his family or his people and that they had brought you up" - something to that effect, am I right? MR MOHASA CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that you were related to the deceased? MR MOHASA No, not Sir. CHAIRPERSON What do you mean when you say that his people brought you up? MR MOHASA I meant that they knew me very well, when I was growing they were - I was still there and I used to visit that family and stay there and these are the people I did not have problems with. CHAIRPERSON And as far as the deceased is concerned, the only problem you had with him was that he was a member of the Three Million gang? MR MOHASA That was my only problem. CHAIRPERSON ADV DE JAGER The family of the deceased, are they here, do you recognise them? MR MOHASA Yes, they as present. ADV DE JAGER Is there perhaps anything you wanted to say to them? MR MOHASA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you are excused, you can go back. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, you indicated that some relatives were here, is there any witnesses you wanted to call? MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Mr Mthembu, do you - are you ready to argue or what do you suggest? MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON Which would be when? MR MTHEMBU According to Ms Khampepe, she suggested next week Thursday. CHAIRPERSON Will you be able to do that? MR MTHEMBU I should be able to Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Please try to keep to the terms because we have had unpleasant experiences that some legal representatives do not keep to their arrangement and as a result they delay judgments. MR MTHEMBU I will keep the time limits Mr Chair, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE Mr Chair and the Committee, I have no problem what has been said by Mr Mthembu, I just wanted to mention the date, the date will be the 6th of November for the submission of the ...[indistinct] or argument. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, then that will form a - that concludes the work for the Amnesty Committee this week in this area, thank you. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS