amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-10-30 KIMBERLEY 4 STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE 1352/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54759&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/kim/monyake.htm CHAIRPERSON This is the 30th of October 1997, we are hearing the applications of Mohase and Monyake. The panel is constituted as follows, myself Judge Ngoepe and to my left Advocate de Jager SC and to my right Ms Khampepe, Mr Mpshe will lead the evidence. Would you place yourself on record Mr Mthembu? MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE They are on their way per Kombi but I want to make an application that we commence with hearing because the message given to me by him as well as the legal representative - and when I spoke to them yesterday, is that they are not opposing. CHAIRPERSON MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Mr Britz? Is he here - Mr Britz? MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Well, is there anybody to maybe explain to us what was the problem? You could speak in Afrikaans if you choose. Maybe you could come a little bit nearer. No sound. MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Yes, I suppose that there will be no problem if Mr Mthembu is happy with that. MR MTHEMBU MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Mthembu? MR MTHEMBU Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Chair, I will call Mr Monyake to the witness stand. CHAIRPERSON Is that the gentleman sitting? MR MTHEMBU That is correct. STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MTHEMBU Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Monyake, you are the applicant in this matter, is that correct? MR MONYAKE ...[inaudible] MR MTHEMBU Mr Chair, the applicant informs me that apparently there is no-one who is translating. MR MPSHE MR MTHEMBU Mr Monyake, you are the applicant ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Your full names? MR MTHEMBU In this matter, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Mthembu, make him give us his full names for the record. MR MONYAKE Stephen Mqeketsi Monyake. MR MTHEMBU Mr Monyake, you are the applicant in this matter? MR MONYAKE MR MTHEMBU Is it further correct that you are applying for amnesty for the murder of one Tefo Molele on the 2nd of May 1992 in Kroonstad? MR MONYAKE MR MTHEMBU Mr Monyake, at the time of the commission of this offence, were you a member, supporter or officer bearer of any political organisation? MR MONYAKE Yes, I was within the ANC, the ANC Youth League. MR MTHEMBU In what capacity were you serving in the ANC Youth League? MR MONYAKE I was in the self-defence unit. MR MTHEMBU Would you then Sir in your own words, tell the Committee why you regard your act as associated with a political objective for which you are now seeking amnesty? MR MONYAKE The deceased Mr Molele was a member of the Three Million and the Three Million was a group of people which was collaborating with the South African police at that time in Kroonstad under the leadership of Nkatha Freedom Party. MR MTHEMBU Yes Sir, proceed. MR MONYAKE MR MTHEMBU I just heard you now mentioning defence units, could you just in brief explain to the Committee what role the defence units played at the time?MR MONYAKE: The role played by the defence units by that time was to defend the community of Maukeng, the community as a whole against the Three Million. MR MTHEMBU Were these defence units formed or established under the auspices or banner of the ANC or not? MR MONYAKE They were formed under the auspices of the ANC. MR MTHEMBU Thank you Sir, proceed. MR MONYAKE MR MTHEMBU Thank you Sir, is it further correct that on the day in question you and the deceased had met at a tavern in Gelukwarts? MR MTHEMBU MR MTHEMBU Will you then tell the Committee what ensued during that said meeting? MR MTHEMBU MR MTHEMBU Yes Sir, proceed. MR MONYAKE When they arrived, they had an empty case of beer and I was with my comrade and they threw us with these empty bottles. MR MTHEMBU Did they just simply start attacking you and your fellow comrade without having said anything? MR MONYAKE MR MTHEMBU What did you and Pappie then do? MR MONYAKE I took out my knife and I stabbed him, he also had a knife in his possession and he took it out but he could not be in a position to use it. I stabbed him until he ran away from me, I followed him, I stabbed him until he fell on the ground - that was outside the tavern. MR MTHEMBU Sir, on reading the Judgement in your case, it would appear that the deceased was attacked on - ...[indistinct] would break it down to two incidents. The first incident was before the deceased family arrived on the scene and the second occasion ...[indistinct] aware now, his family was on the scene. Now when you tell the Committee what happened, please do so having that in mind. MR MONYAKE I do not remember whether the family of the deceased arrived, this incident took place a long time ago but I remember the deceased tried to run away and I followed him, chasing him until I stabbed him and he fell to the ground and while on the ground I stabbed him and thereafter I left. MR MTHEMBU Did you not at any stage whilst the deceased lay on the ground, turn him over and continued stabbing him on the front part of his body? MR MONYAKE MR MTHEMBU Can you still recall how many stab wounds you inflicted on the deceased? MR MONYAKE MR MTHEMBU Sir, was the intention to defend yourself or was your intention to kill the deceased? MR MONYAKE The intention was to defend myself but I ended up killing him but my intention was to protect myself against him. MR MTHEMBU Sir, on what basis do you say that the deceased was a member of the Three Million gangsters? MR MONYAKE The deceased was a member of the Three Million gang, I used to see him on many occasions when they were attacking us. He used to wear Nkatha T-shirts and I know where he stayed, it was around that area - on many occasions I have seen him. MR MTHEMBU Sir, on page 10 of the bundle, paragraph 11(a) to - to following question was "Were the acts, omission/omissions or offences committed in the execution of an order of or on behalf of or with the approval of the organisation, institution, body, liberation movement, State Department or security force concerned" Your answer was that: "It was by agreement with the organisation" Would you explain this further to the Committee, what you meant by this? MR MONYAKE What I meant by this is that when we launched the self-defence unit it was agreed that we should protect ourselves, not to attack or to kill the deceased. MR MTHEMBU But if you understand the question correct, it says "Was the act committed to execute an order of an organisation" And you gave the answer I just read to you, now, I want you to explain in relation to the order. MR MONYAKE Comrade Thulo Machaba gave an order that we should defend ourselves against the Three Million gang. MR MTHEMBU The following question 11(d) where you are required to state particulars of such an order, the date thereof and the name and address of the person that gave that order, you responded as follows "That is was the consensus and approval of the Chairperson of the ANC and his Committee Maukeng Location and his name was Dennis Bloem" MR MONYAKE Comrade Thulo Machaba was the commander of the self-defence unit, everything he said to us on that day was agreed to by Dennis Bloem. MR MTHEMBU But was Mr Bloem the ANC Chairperson of the area? MR MONYAKE That is correct. MR MTHEMBU Sir, how do you feel today about this incident? MR MONYAKE MR MTHEMBU Is there anything more that you wish to add to your testimony? MR MONYAKE MR MTHEMBU And is that your application Sir? MR MONYAKE That is correct Sir. MR MTHEMBU Members of the Committee? NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, when you referred to Volume 1, when you said we should - you are submitting that as evidence, I think I misunderstood. I was under the impression that it was in relation to the same incident, are you submitting that evidence in relation to the background to the story of the Three Million gang only? MR MPSHE That is so Mr Chairman, in both applications but in the other application in bundle 3, only to the application to the incident that happened in 1991, not the one ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Sorry. MR MPSHE Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Monyake, you told the Committee that the deceased ran away and you chased him, do you remember that? MR MONYAKE Yes, I remember. MR MPSHE Now, at the time when he ran away, had he stabbed you or done anything to you physically? MR MONYAKE MR MPSHE MR MONYAKE I was emotional, that is the reason I chased him - the reason I stabbed him until he fell. MR MPSHE MR MONYAKE MR MPSHE MR MONYAKE Yes, you are correct. MR MPSHE Now, I want you to turn to page 21 of the bundle 2 Mr Chairman, members of the Committee. "Yes I was given an order but to defend, not to attack the deceased" Do you see that? MR MONYAKE Yes, I can see it. MR MPSHE Do you understand what you have written there? MR MONYAKE Yes, I understand. MR MPSHE Will I then be correct to state that in as far as the killing of the deceased was concerned there was no order, according to information furnished to this Committee? MR MONYAKE MR MPSHE MR MONYAKE No, there was no argument, he arrived and he asked us where the rest of the comrades were and they started firing with the bottles that they had. MR MPSHE "Yes, the argument was my political organisation" What did you mean thereby? MR MONYAKE By this I meant that everywhere we met they fought us because my organisation was not satisfied with what they were doing to the community, the community of Maukeng. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Mpshe, where is the request to which you are responding to for further particulars? ADV DE JAGER Page 59. MR MPSHE "On the day he was killed, did you have an argument or a fight with him and if yes, what was the argument about"? Then you responded as follows on number 5 on page 21, do you see that? MR MONYAKE Can you please repeat your question Sir? MR MPSHE "On the day he was killed, did you have an argument/fight with him and if yes, what was the argument about"? Your answer thereto which is on number 5 on page 21, reads: "Yes, our argument was my political organisation" Do you see that? MR MONYAKE Yes, I can see this. MR MPSHE Do I understand you then to have responded in this way that the question was clear to you, they wanted - it wanted to know whether on that day when you killed him, was there an argument between the two of you, did you understand it like that - not prior to the incident? MR MONYAKE There was no argument Sir because I did not even talk to him, he talked to me instead. He was asking me about the whereabouts of my other comrades and he fired the bottles at me, an argument never ensued. MR MPSHE So, your answer on page 21 number 5, is incorrect to the Committee? MR MONYAKE Yes. MR MPSHE By stabbing the deceased 15 times and causing his death, what is it really that you wanted to achieve? MR MONYAKE I wanted to achieve peace for the community of Maukeng. At least today I realised that we achieved what we wanted which is peace, the peace that is reigning in Maukeng presently. MR MPSHE At the time of this incident, for how long had you been a member of the ANC Youth League? MR MONYAKE It was about two to three years. MR MPSHE MR MONYAKE About two years. MR MPSHE During your membership in both organisations, have you never heard of the word negotiations between parties or members fighting? MR MONYAKE Can you please repeat your question Sir? MR MPSHE During your membership in both organisations, have you never heard of the word negotiations? MR MONYAKE I heard of that word. MR MPSHE Was negotiations not one of the means whereby peace could be achieved other than by killing? MR MONYAKE MR MPSHE If you can still remember Mr Monyake, can you mention one or two of the many a times where you tried - when and how, what was done? CHAIRPERSON Was he not a junior person, who was not given an official or anything? MR MPSHE Yes, Mr Chairman, I agree he was non-official member of the organisation but if he says it was tried at negotiations, then it means he has knowledge thereof of what was done. CHAIRPERSON MR MPSHE No, Mr Chairman, I was saying: "Can you tell us what was done and when was it done", thank you Chair. MR MONYAKE I do not remember the day and the month but it was in 1992, it was on a Sunday. We met the Three Million and we tried to bring about peace between ourselves and the next day they attacked us. There was a small child thirteen years of age and this child was crippled, they killed that child next to an open field. This took place when we talked with them the previous day about peace. MR MPSHE Who was the then leader of the Three Million gang in Maukeng? MR MONYAKE It was Gwete George Ramasemong. MR MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE MS KHAMPEPE MR MONYAKE I could not provide an answer because even before I could answer, he was already firing the bottles and I was scared - I thought there were many of them, it was before I could realise that there were only two. MS KHAMPEPE Now, on page 21 at paragraph 7 ... "Were you alone or was there someone with you when Tefo Molele was killed"? MR MONYAKE MS KHAMPEPE MR MONYAKE We took an action because we were defending ourselves, it was not out intention to attack them. ADV DE JAGER What time did this incident take place? MR MONYAKE It was in the afternoon, I do not specifically remember the time. ADV DE JAGER Was it dark or was it not yet dark? MR MONYAKE It was not yet dark. ADV DE JAGER What time did you arrive at the tavern? MR MONYAKE Round about past 10 to 11. ADV DE JAGER And were you drinking from that time until late in the afternoon? MR MONYAKE Yes, but not until late. ADV DE JAGER When they arrived there you were still busy drinking? MR MONYAKE Yes, we were still drinking. ADV DE JAGER Did the alcohol affect you? MR MONYAKE No, I was not influenced by liquor. At the time when the deceased arrived myself and comrade were playing pool, we were still playing pool. ADV DE JAGER But in paragraph 4 on page 21, you state "I was sitting and drinking my bottles" MR MONYAKE We were playing and at the same time drinking. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR MTHEMBU None, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Any witnesses that you wanted to call? MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON Mr ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON MR MTHEMBU In that regard then Mr Chair, I do not have any further witnesses or witness to call that could shed more light with regard to the incident. CHAIRPERSON MR MTHEMBU That is correct Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, are there witnesses that you would like to call? MR MPSHE No, Mr Chairman, members of the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Well, then we - you are excused Mr Monyake, you can stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON MR MTHEMBU I would appreciate it Mr Chair and the Committee members. CHAIRPERSON MR MTHEMBU Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS