amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-10-28 KIMBERLEY 2 WALTER SMILES https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54760&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/kim/smiles.htm CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] client going to testify? MR TSHOLANKU Mr Chairman, Mr Smiles informs me he is comfortable with Afrikaans. ADV DE JAGER Can you give us your full names please? MR SMILES Walter Smiles. WALTER SMILES (sworn states) MR TSHOLANKU MR SMILES MR TSHOLANKU Regarding the incident which happened on the 25th May 1993, it appears to the Committee that you were involved in this incident. MR SMILES MR TSHOLANKU Can you tell the Committee which role you played on that day regarding that incident? MR SMILES Repeat the question please? ADV DE JAGER MS KHAMPEPE Mr Tsholanku, if you so wish you can put your questions in English and they will be translated to your client, if you so elect. MR TSHOLANKU Mr Smiles, the question that I asked or posed to you was, would you kindly explain to the Committee as to what was your involvement on the incident that took place on the 25th day of May 1993 in Kimberley. MR SMILES MR TSHOLANKU MS KHAMPEPE MR TSHOLANKU Thank you Madam. Now Mr Smiles, I want you to listen carefully. On the 25th day of May 1993, there was an explosion in Kimberley ...[intervention] MS KHAMPEPE MR TSHOLANKU ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER MR VISSER Maybe I may of assistance Mr Chairman, not by cross-examining but by giving you information, this matter was dealt with at the trial and it was established that it was a Tuesday the 25th of May, although all the applications for amnesty refer to it as the 24th, it was in fact the 25th. MR TSHOLANKU Thank you. Now, we know you were involved in some way or another in this particular blast, can you explain to the Committee as to exactly what was your involvement in this particular blast at the Trust Bank Centre as it was commonly known then? MR SMILES I remember the day I was contacted by the Major, there were some seats at the tickey stop and he found me there and picked me up and he took me to the arena, it was a march organised by ANC and COSAS but I was still in the motorcar. And while I was in the car we went with the march up to the OK - a four-way, an Indian centre. I got out with a white bag. MR TSHOLANKU Please continue. MR SMILES In the white bag was a handbag which was wrapped up in newspaper. I went with the march up to the Trust Bank building, when we got to the Trust Bank building I got out of the car, I got an instruction from my commander Laurens Mbatha and the instruction I got I accepted because he was a member of MK. MR TSHOLANKU What was the instruction that you received from Laurens Mbatha? MR SMILES The instruction I got from Laurens Mbatha was that we were close to the Bophuthatswana Consulate building and what happened, we had to give a signal into the Bophuthatswana building. MR TSHOLANKU Continue. MR SMILES And at the time when I got the hand grenade the mission to take care that nobody got hurt - I tried to do that. At the time when I threw the hand grenade - before I threw the hand grenade, the petitions had already been handed over and the marchers were returning. When the marchers were returning, that was the right time to throw the hand grenade into the Trust Bank building. At the time when I threw the hand grenade, I primed it and I hid it away so nobody could see it. At the time when I threw the hand grenade - the doors were still open and the people were leaving, then I took out the pin and I held the hand grenade and I threw it. At the moment when I threw the hand grenade and the security guard came out - there was a security guard, and he came out and the hand grenade hit him on the forehead, fell down and rolled away and that cause all the injuries and the death. MR TSHOLANKU You threw the hand grenade and it exploded as you explained, now after you threw the hand grenade, what did you do? MR SMILES I went to the other side, I went and laid down and I stood up and when I got up I crossed the same road. There was a place downstairs - and then I smashed the whole pin, then the police came and pulled us out from that place. To be quite honest it was very disturbing ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER You went across the road and then - you said something about: "to splash it" or something with the pin or hand grenade, what precisely are you saying? MR SMILES MR TSHOLANKU And this you did across the road from the Trust Bank Centre - if I understand you? MR SMILES No, the pin - on the other side there was a building, there were toilets - I went there and I then stashed them away there. MR TSHOLANKU You destroyed the pins in the toilets downstairs in this building across the road? MR SMILES That is correct. MR TSHOLANKU ...[inaudible] you stashed the pins in this toilet - this building across the road, what happened? What did you do? MR SMILES I went outside, I walked and I went to the ANC office and I wanted to report the matter to my commander and I had to explain that is was unsuccessful, there were people who were injured. We then took the bakkie, phoned the ambulances for the people who were injured. MR TSHOLANKU When you went to the ANC offices to report this matter to the commander, was the commander there? MR SMILES MR TSHOLANKU And you reported that the operation was unsuccessful, what did you do from there - having reported that the operation was unsuccessful, what did you do from there? MR SMILES I helped him to pick up people who could not stand up. MR TSHOLANKU Was that at the scene of the blast? MR SMILES Yes. MR TSHOLANKU What did you do with these people, where did you take them? MR SMILES We took them to the hospital. MR TSHOLANKU Having taken these people to hospital, what happened thereafter? MR SMILES What happened afterwards is I went home. MR TSHOLANKU Now, can you remember exactly when was the hand grenade handed over to you on this particular day? MR SMILES It was at the time of the march - in the motor vehicle. MR TSHOLANKU And who handed the grenade to you? MR SMILES It was Laurens Mbatha. MR TSHOLANKU And when he handed the grenade to you, were you the only two in the car? MR SMILES MR TSHOLANKU You mentioned that he gave you an order, can you remember exactly how the order was structured when the order was given to you? MR SMILES Repeat it. MR TSHOLANKU You mentioned that he gave you an order, can you remember exactly how the order was structured when he gave you this particular order? MR SMILES That is correct, the order was that I had to take care that nobody would be injured but the hand grenade should go in but unfortunately at the moment when I threw it, that was the time when the security guard came out and the hand grenade fell on his face and then it caused the death and injury. But the aim of the hand grenade was not aimed at Mokone. MR TSHOLANKU He gave you an order, did he - prior or after giving you this order, explain to you the reason why he wants you to throw this hand grenade? Did he explain to you? MR SMILES Explain it. MR TSHOLANKU He gave you an order and said you must launch or throw this hand grenade into the building - now what I want you to tell the Committee is, did he give you a reason or a motivation as to why he wants you to throw in the hand grenade into the building? MR SMILES MR TSHOLANKU Did you not question this order? Did you question the order? MR SMILES No. MR TSHOLANKU When you launched this or threw this hand grenade into the - towards the building itself, did you know what you were doing? Did you have experience pertaining to throwing of hand grenades? MR SMILES The experience - I had experienced to throw but not really training. MR TSHOLANKU So, if I understand you correctly, you were trained on how to throw the hand grenade not with the hand grenade itself? MR SMILES That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR TSHOLANKU My questions was whether he had experience in throwing of hand grenades and the response was he knew how to throw the hand grenade but not the hand grenade - he never had training with hand grenades themselves. The follow-up thereto was whether - do I understand him to say he knew how to throw hand grenades but he had never had training whatsoever with the throwing of a live hand grenade itself and his was yes. MS KHAMPEPE Is he saying he had never thrown a hand grenade before? MR TSHOLANKU Let me clear it up with him Madam. Mr Smiles, before this incident itself - before the blast at the Trust Bank Centre in Kimberley, have you ever had - have you thrown a hand grenade before? MR SMILES Yes. MR TSHOLANKU Was this the second time that you had thrown a grenade in your ...[intervention] MR SMILES Yes, at a military base in Galishewe. MR TSHOLANKU Have you applied for amnesty for that particular incident? MR SMILES Those are things that Mr Rodney and Mr Denzil had to handle - we have applied. MR TSHOLANKU MR VISSER MR TSHOLANKU MR VISSER MR TSHOLANKU MS KHAMPEPE MR VISSER MR TSHOLANKU If I may continue Mr Chairman. There is information before the Committee that somebody else by the name of Nkosinatu was the person that lobbed or threw the hand grenade to the Trust Bank Centre, what is your comment pertaining to that? MR SMILES MR TSHOLANKU "The hand grenade you got from somebody that is unknown to you but who allegedly comes from Johannesburg" Do you remember that statement? MR SMILES Yes, I remember it. MR TSHOLANKU Can you explain that particular paragraph - that you got this hand grenade from somebody that came from Johannesburg? MR SMILES MR TSHOLANKU Now, are you saying the sole reason why paragraph 7 was included in that statement was to afford your commander some form of protection, do I understand you to say that? MR SMILES Yes. MR TSHOLANKU MR SMILES Yes, I remember. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, before you get there - do you have a copy of your statement dated 27th September 1993? MR TSHOLANKU He does have Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Is that your signature appearing on page 3? MR SMILES Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you - is that your signature appearing at the bottom of pages 1 and 2? MR SMILES That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Well, then we can take this to be Exhibit A. MR TSHOLANKU MS KHAMPEPE Can you tell us in which bundle and the page on that bundle? MR TSHOLANKU Madam, it was ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Page 11, bundle 2. MR TSHOLANKU Now, do you know the statement that was made on the 8th day of June 1996 by yourself? MR SMILES Yes. MR TSHOLANKU Are you aware of the contents of that particular statement? MR SMILES Repeat it. MR TSHOLANKU Are you aware of the contents of that particular statement? MR SMILES No. MR TSHOLANKU That was made by yourself on the 8th day of June 1996? MR SMILES Yes. MR TSHOLANKU Do you agree with what is in that particular statement? MR SMILES MR TSHOLANKU CHAIRPERSON MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR TSHOLANKU MR SMILES MR TSHOLANKU Are you aware of the contents, that is what is written here in this particular statement? MR SMILES Yes. MR TSHOLANKU MR SMILES To explain, the Investigation Unit came to our home and at that time when they came there and they asked questions, they asked which car was that - they saw a White man and a Black man going into my house and I asked: "What was that"? So I stood outside in the street and I waited for them to come out and then I went in and I asked who they were and they said they were the Investigation Unit and I asked which one and they said the TRC. I asked what are they looking for and they said I had to go and see them at the Savoy Hotel. MR TSHOLANKU Continue. MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON Which full statement are you referring to, this one of the 8th of June? MR TSHOLANKU CHAIRPERSON MR TSHOLANKU ADV DE JAGER Mr Smiles, when you met Doctor Boraine and Sipho, did you have a look at this statement on page 11, the one that your advocate is showing to you? MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER Because you already said there was a threat. MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES That is correct. ADV DE JAGER But it is the information that you gave them, it was written down correctly? MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES Yes, that is correct. MR TSHOLANKU Thank you Mr Chairman. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Tsholanku, may I just get some clarification - I believe a statement was made to Mr Boraine and Sipho, can we just get clarity on who is this Sipho, whether we are talking about Sipho Mbatwa or Sipho who is working for the TRC? MR TSHOLANKU Do you want the applicant to answer that? MS KHAMPEPE Yes. MR TSHOLANKU You have made mention of Doctor Boraine and Sipho, which Sipho are you talking about? MR SMILES The one who is working for the TRC Investigation Unit. MR TSHOLANKU Do you perhaps have his surname? MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER MR TSHOLANKU Thank you. You then mention a statement that you made under oath at the HRV hearings, is that correct? MR SMILES Yes. MR TSHOLANKU MR SMILES This is the statement I understand and I gave it like this to the TRC. MR TSHOLANKU Thank you Mr Smiles. When you made this statement, when you ...[intervention] MS KHAMPEPE Mr Tsholanku, can we rather refer to it as evidence because it really was evidence which was given to the TRC as opposed to the other statement? MR TSHOLANKU Evidence that you gave to the HRV hearings - when you gave the evidence, were you comfortable with people in and around you? What was the position there? MR SMILES Please explain again. MR TSHOLANKU When you afforded the HRV this particular evidence from page 39 to 41, were you comfortable then with people around you and what was happening there? MR SMILES Yes. MR TSHOLANKU There has also been information brought forward to the hearing that at some point in time you were taken to a police station around here for purposes of handing you over to the police, do you have recollection of that incident? MR SMILES MR VISSER MR TSHOLANKU Mr Smiles, before this hand grenade incident, how long had you been a member of the ANC or the member of the particular unit falling under the command of Mr Mbatha? MR SMILES I joined the civics in 1990, 1991 I joined the ANC Youth League, I joined the MK structure in 1992. In 1992, I had to leave the country because of the same incident - I still felt unhappy about the mother, I felt that the mother should know who was the person behind this whole event so I came back from Johannesburg. It was for me very difficult for me to explain because the family was in a very bad condition. MR TSHOLANKU Now, what I want to find out from you is - ever since you joined this command structure under the command of Major Mbatha, have you ever at any given point in time disobeyed an order that was given by him? MR SMILES I never refused an instruction from him. MR TSHOLANKU MR SMILES Sometimes if you refused an order there could be drastic action against you, not to say that he would do it personally but an order was an order. MS KHAMPEPE May I interpose Mr Tsholanku? MR TSHOLANKU MS KHAMPEPE MR TSHOLANKU He said in 1992 he wanted to leave the country because of this incident but he then returned back from Johannesburg but I can ask him to clarify that - whether it was in 1992 or later, what is it that he exactly wanted to convey. Mr Smiles, can you clarify the point pertaining to your wanting to skip the country pertaining to this particular incident, when was that and what happened? MR SMILES It was in 1992. MR TSHOLANKU Are you sure it was 1992 Mr Smiles? MR SMILES MS KHAMPEPE Did you leave the country in 1992 after this incident? MR SMILES I wanted to leave the country, I should have left the country. ADV DE JAGER Why did you have to leave the country? MR SMILES About the same incident. ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES Then I misunderstood him. ADV DE JAGER Now, when did you want to leave the country - after the incident? MR SMILES MR TSHOLANKU Thank you, that will be the evidence of Mr Smiles, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TSHOLANKU CHAIRPERSON Professor de Koker? PROF DE KOKER CHAIRPERSON CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BODE Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Smiles, I represent several of the victims and more specifically in the first instance, the parents of Izekial Mokone. The parents of Mr Mokone are present today and I firstly want to know, did you know the deceased Izekial Mokone? MR SMILES No. MR BODE Did you at any stage go to the house of the parents of the deceased or at any other place went to them and apologised to them for your action? MR SMILES MR BODE Did you - after the incident had occurred, did you go to the ANC and did you say that you threw the hand grenade and that you accept responsibility, did you do that? MR SMILES Mr Bode, I went to my Major, he was in the ANC office, I explained about the incident - that is correct. MR BODE: Besides you commander Laurens Mbatha, did you go to any other person in the ANC and said that you had committed it and that you accept responsibility? MR SMILES Mr Bode, I work on instructions - I cannot go to anyone else, I just work through Laurens. MR BODE MR SMILES Yes, I explained it last year and I want to explain it again, I apologise for that what I did. Those who were injured I have to apologise, that was the only choice I have. MR BODE You knew that the Trust Bank building in a high building, approximately 10-15 floors high, is that so? MR SMILES Yes. MR BODE MR SMILES MR BODE MR SMILES As I explained the first time, the aim of the hand grenade was that the people had to go back, they had to move away - at that stage I would throw it into the Trust Bank building, that was the aim. MR BODE MR SMILES What I explained and what I say and I also asked forgiveness in my amnesty application for him. MR BODE Several of my clients, Mr Dan Pethani, Miss Audrey Gorrel, Miss Millicent Mtebe, Mr Frank Moremedi and Paul Kock, all of them had to go to hospital because of injuries they sustained and up to today they still suffer from these injuries, they still have shrapnel in their bodies and the possibility of medical attention in the future is not excluded. MR SMILES MR BODE MR SMILES I remember this one girl, I know her, we worked together, we are both in the army, that was the only one because I trust her and she has given me forgiveness. MR BODE Mr Chairperson, I do not have any further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BODE CHAIRPERSON Professor de Koker? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY PROF DE KOKER Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Smiles, when did you learn first about this march? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER It might perhaps be easier if I continue in Afrikaans, it you find it more comfortable and you might exclude any translation problems. Did you know the day before of this march or did you hear about it that morning? MR SMILES I heard that afternoon. PROF DE KOKER That was the afternoon beforehand? MR SMILES Yes. PROF DE KOKER What did you know of this march? MR SMILES What I knew was that memorandums would be presented concerning the Bophuthatswana Administration. PROF DE KOKER What were your movements on that morning of the incident? MR SMILES Could you just explain that please? PROF DE KOKER What did you do that morning before the incident? Where were you? When did you join the march? MR SMILES I was in the street and I sat at the four-way tickey stop and I waited for the march - that was our main place. PROF DE KOKER Did you sit there until the march arrived? MR SMILES Yes, I sat there until my commander came to pick me up. PROF DE KOKER And then got with him into the motor - you said there were three people. MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER When did you get to the instruction to throw the hand grenade? MR SMILES That was on the same day in the car. PROF DE KOKER Was it the same day or was it during that drive? MR SMILES It was during the same day, it was the same day. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES No, I got my instructions in the car. PROF DE KOKER Could I just perhaps make this clearer - I want to get you the chronology of the incidents, I want to know how everything fits together. You got into the car with Major Mbatha and an unknown third person, how long were you travelling around before he gave you the instruction? Where exactly in town because you were now travelling in this car, where did he give you the instruction? MR SMILES I got into the car, we went to the Arena where the whole march assembled. PROF DE KOKER As I understand it you sat on the wall when the march got there - when the people arrived, is that correct? MR SMILES Just explain please. PROF DE KOKER As I understood it, is that you sat on the wall until the march passed you and then the car also passed you? MR SMILES No, the march did not yet arrive - I sat, the car came and it picked me up. MS KHAMPEPE PROF DE KOKER I am following that evidence to compare it with the evidence given to us today. MS KHAMPEPE PROF DE KOKER MS KHAMPEPE PROF DE KOKER Thank you very much. Mr Smiles, I am still trying to exactly clarify what you did there that morning. According to your evidence given today, you sat at tickey stop - there was a seat? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER You were then picked up by the Major in the car? MR SMILES Yes. PROF DE KOKER What happened then? MR SMILES We then drove off to the point where the marchers assembled to go to the Bophuthatswana Consulate. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES That is the arena that is in the Black township in Vergenoeg. PROF DE KOKER What happened then? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER What happened then? MR SMILES I got out with the white bag and in the white bag there was a hand grenade. ADV DE JAGER Did you get out of the car with the white bag? MR SMILES Yes, that is correct, I got the white bag and that is with what I got out. ADV DE JAGER Where did you get it? MR SMILES I got it from my commander. PROF DE KOKER Who was driving the car at that stage? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER The instruction was given while this person was driving the car, Major Mbatha was in the car and you? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER And according to you there were three people who were aware of this instruction to you, is that correct? MR SMILES No. PROF DE KOKER Could you just explain that? MR SMILES I would actually want you to give the answer to me. ADV DE JAGER I think what the Advocate is asking you is that you said the three of you were in the car and you also say that in the car you got the instruction to throw the hand grenade? MR SMILES Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER Now, the Advocate says to you: "So you knew about it, the Major knew about it and the driver of the car knew about the instruction"? MR SMILES Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER So, the three of you knew about that? MR SMILES Yes, that is correct. PROF DE KOKER According to the evidence of Mr Mbatha, only you and him had any knowledge of this instruction, is that correct - this statement that was made? Did only you and Major Mbatha have any knowledge about this instruction as testified by Major Mbatha or did you, Major Mbatha and the unknown driver of this car know of this instruction? MR SMILES I got the instruction from Mbatha. PROF DE KOKER In the presence of a third person? MR SMILES Yes that is correct. PROF DE KOKER Who now also had knowledge of this? MR SMILES Yes. PROF DE KOKER At this stage as I understand it, you were at the OK building when you got out of the car with this bag, how far is the OK building from the Trust Bank building? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER What did you do there? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Where did you put the hand grenade? MR SMILES I put it under my T-shirt. PROF DE KOKER Under your T-shirt? MR SMILES Under my shirt. PROF DE KOKER But you had on a T-shirt? MR SMILES I had on a T-shirt. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER What did you have to do during this march? Were you a marshall? MR SMILES I acted as a peacemaker. PROF DE KOKER But you also said that you were a marshall regarding this march, did you act as a marshall during this act? MR SMILES No, I acted as somebody who had an order to execute. PROF DE KOKER So, you did not act as a marshall during this march? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER You said you had this hand grenade under your T-shirt and when you threw it, you saw that nobody - you made sure that nobody saw you, is that correct? MR SMILES That is correct. PROF DE KOKER How did you make sure that nobody could see you throwing this hand grenade? MR SMILES After I saw that it was difficult for somebody to see what I had - I took care that nobody could see what I had under my T-shirt. PROF DE KOKER How do you throw a hand grenade so that nobody can see it? Can you demonstrate how you did it? INTERPRETER The witness is demonstrating by pulling out the pin and then throwing it overhand. MR SMILES And then I went and lay down because I know a hand grenade when it explodes could hurt me too, so I went and lay down. PROF DE KOKER What you demonstrated now - for the purposes of the record, is how the pin is removed from the hand grenade and then you knelt somewhat and you demonstrated a bowling action? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER How could you perform an action like without anyone of the 150 people there seeing you? MR SMILES Just explain that to me again. PROF DE KOKER You said you threw that hand grenade but made sure that nobody saw you. What you just demonstrated was very visible, you could easily see it. With 150 people around you, how could you say you threw it so that nobody could see it? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Where were you standing when the hand grenade was thrown? MR SMILES There was a little tree at that place where I was standing when I threw the grenade and it fell into the corner. PROF DE KOKER How many people were between you and the front of the building? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Where was Major Mbatha standing at this stage? MR SMILES He was standing in front. PROF DE KOKER Who gave you the signal to throw the hand grenade? MR SMILES That was Major Laurens Mbatha. PROF DE KOKER How did he give you the sign? MR SMILES The sign was when the marchers were returning, then I had to throw the hand grenade but unfortunately when I threw the hand grenade that was when the security guard came out and the hand grenade hit him in the face. PROF DE KOKER Mr Smiles, that was the instruction, is that correct? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER But in your evidence you referred - evidence which you gave in Kimberley last year, which I may quote directly - page 40 of bundle 2 "When it was time to hand over the third petition, then there was a sign that I must throw this grenade and he lay down at the same time" Who gave you this signal to which you referred in your statement? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER The evidence was quite clear on this point "There was a sign that I must throw this grenade and he laid down at the same time, so when I threw it I was weak" So this person to whom you refer cannot be yourself. According to your statement there was a signal first, the person fell down: "So when I threw it I was weak" PROF DE KOKER Did you get the signal from Major Mbatha? MR SMILES Yes, I did receive it. PROF DE KOKER How did you receive it? MR SMILES The sign ...[intervention] PROF DE KOKER How did he signal to you that you must throw it? MR SMILES He said to me I must make sure that nobody could get hurt. At the time when I threw it I had to take care that nobody could get hurt. ADV DE JAGER "There was a sign that I must throw" There was a sign that you must throw the grenade: "And he lay down at the same time, so when I threw it I was weak" MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER Now, who gave you the signal? MR SMILES Major Laurens Mbatha. ADV DE JAGER And what was the signal? MR SMILES I had to take care that nobody should get hurt. ADV DE JAGER Now, how did he give that signal, with his hands or what? MR SMILES No. ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER Then it must have been someone else? MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER Then who was the other person who gave the signal and lay down? MR SMILES Laurens gave me the signal- it was my time. ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES Because I knew that when the - he said the doors had to open and then I had to throw it inside. ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES Just explain to me please. ADV DE JAGER You said: "Laurens gave the signal to throw, I imagined it was him" - that was the question, did Laurens give you the signal - "I thought it was him". MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES Please explain it to me very carefully that I can understand it properly. CHAIRPERSON In what language did you testify? MR SMILES I testified in Afrikaans. MS KHAMPEPE Did you at the HRV hearing say at any time that Mr Mbatha gave you a signal before throwing the hand grenade into the building, did you ever say that? MR SMILES Yes, I did say it. MS KHAMPEPE Why did you say that if you are now contending that that is not what actually happened? MR SMILES It is what happened. MS KHAMPEPE What happened, are you saying that you got a signal from Mr Mbatha to throw the hand grenade? Take your time Mr Smiles, the evidence that you are giving here is very important and it is a fundamental requirement to your application that you should give a full disclosure by that you must be honest. So, we want to know, did you or did you not get a signal from Mr Mbatha to throw a hand grenade into the building? MR SMILES I did get a signal. MS KHAMPEPE So the evidence that you have just led now should be disregarded and we should now accept that you got a signal from Mr Mbatha and it was as a result of that signal that you threw the hand grenade into the building. Is that the evidence that you want us to accept now? MR SMILES Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON How did he give the signal? MR SMILES The signal was that when the marchers were leaving and the doors were opening, I realised that this was the signal. CHAIRPERSON We are moving in circles it seems to me. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Smiles, have you been listening to what we were saying to you? We are getting very confused with your evidence. You are here to make things easier for us and not to make things difficult, we need to know the truth. MR SMILES MS KHAMPEPE MR SMILES Yes, Madam. MS KHAMPEPE CHAIRPERSON PROF DE KOKER Thank you Mr Chairman. MR TSHOLANKU CHAIRPERSON MR TSHOLANKU Thank you Mr Chairman. MS KHAMPEPE MR TSHOLANKU CHAIRPERSON We will not if there will be no basis for it. MR TSHOLANKU Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON PROF DE KOKER Thank you Chairman. Mr Smiles, you testified that you were wearing a T-shirt, did you wear anything over your T-shirt, a jersey, a jacket? MR SMILES No. PROF DE KOKER "So the process of me walking around there, then this chap came up to me - Smiles came up to me. He then opened his jacket like this but then I saw what I thought was a grenade" Mr Smiles, this evidence is to the effect that you were wearing a jacket and that you opened this jacket and which made Mr Mbatwa see that you had a hand grenade, is it correct? MR SMILES No, it is not correct, I did not wear a jacket. MS KHAMPEPE Do you know personally Mr Sipho Mbatwa? MR SMILES Yes, I know him. PROF DE KOKER "I then left the ANC office to go to our office" This is still the evidence of Mr Mbatwa: Mr Smiles, that is evidence of Mr Mbatwa that the morning after the incident you went to him and Mr Mafu Dawids and said that you had done it. This evidence of Mr Mbatwa, is this correct? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES Yes. PROF DE KOKER So, it could be possible that you informed Mr Mbatwa and Mr Dawids that you had in fact done it, it could be possible? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER But you say that you only work through him and he says that you came running to them and said that you had done it. MR SMILES Sorry Sir ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON He cannot remember. MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER I realise Mr Smiles, that you might experience problems with your memory but on the other hand, you have a very clear recollection that you only mentioned this to Major Mbatha. MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES That is correct. ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES No, I would have explained it to the Committee. ADV DE JAGER But if you had told other people, then the next morning they could have gone to the police and said that there is this person ...[intervention] MR SMILES I went to the police and they chased me away. ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES The police had the idea that those were the people, so what could I do? ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER It was only three months later that you went to the police, that was in September. MR SMILES Because we saw that this was causing a problem in the community and that was so that we could explain what had happened. ADV DE JAGER Did you tell the community or just the police? MR SMILES I told the Major. ADV DE JAGER And the community knew nothing of that? MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER And at this stage you also told us that you had problems with the community but you explained nothing to the community? MR SMILES It was very difficult to explain it, so it was very difficult for me to tell it to them. PROF DE KOKER How many people were in the foyer of the Trust Bank building when you threw the hand grenade? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Do you understand my question correctly? How many people were inside the building when you threw the grenade to the building. MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER You had a clear instruction from Major Mbatha that you to ensure that no-one would be killed in the hand grenade attack, how did you see to it that that would not happen? MR SMILES I ensured that nobody would be killed but what happened was that this hand grenade fell on the face. PROF DE KOKER Mr Smiles with respect, you said you had an instruction that you had to prevent loss of life, this hand grenade had to fall with - inside the building, but now you say at that stage there were many people within the building. MR SMILES I thought you referred to people outside of the building. PROF DE KOKER That is why I said to you clearly it was people inside of the building, how many people were inside of the building? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES Yes. PROF DE KOKER And there you had to ensure that no-one else would be injured. MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Now, how did you ensure ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Now, were there people in the building? MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER Do you know if there were people behind him? MR SMILES Where behind? ADV DE JAGER People behind the security guard who was hit on the head? MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER I just want to ask you, you stood at the back when you threw the hand grenade? MR SMILES Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER And you told us that you fell down because you knew that a hand grenade can injure a person. MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER Did fall down because you could be injured? MR SMILES Yes, because I know of the explosion. ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON MR SMILES Yes, I lay down. CHAIRPERSON So regardless of whether the hand grenade would have fallen inside or outside the building, you were laying down? MR SMILES No, the time that I threw it, I turned around and then I lay down - that was when I threw the hand grenade. CHAIRPERSON When you lay down, you had not yet known that the hand grenade would fall or hit the face of the security guard, why did you lie down? MR SMILES Because I heard that it was falling onto the ground. CHAIRPERSON But you were afraid that perhaps you could be injured, that is why you lay down? MR SMILES Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON Professor de Koker, you should tell us once you reach a convenient point. PROF DE KOKER This will probably be a convenient point before we cross over in new ideas Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And you will have to think clearly about the point that we asked you about. MR SMILES Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS