amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-10-28 KIMBERLEY 2 WALTER SMILES https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54760&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/kim/smiles.htm CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] client going to testify? MR TSHOLANKU Mr Chairman, Mr Smiles informs me he is comfortable with Afrikaans. ADV DE JAGER Can you give us your full names please? MR SMILES Walter Smiles. WALTER SMILES (sworn states) MR TSHOLANKU Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Smiles, it appears in this meeting that you were a member of the ANC between the 25th of May ‘93? MR SMILES That’s correct. MR TSHOLANKU Regarding the incident which happened on the 25th May 1993, it appears to the Committee that you were involved in this incident. MR SMILES That’s correct. MR TSHOLANKU Can you tell the Committee which role you played on that day regarding that incident? MR SMILES Repeat the question please? ADV DE JAGER Just a moment. Mr Mpshe can’t the two microphones work at the same time, should it be switched off and on so he could keep his on? MS KHAMPEPE Mr Tsholanku, if you so wish you can put your questions in English and they will be translated to your client, if you so elect. MR TSHOLANKU Madam, I’m indebted to you. I’m more comfortable in English than in Afrikaans, I’ll gladly do that. Mr Smiles, the question that I asked or posed to you was, would you kindly explain to the Committee as to what was your involvement on the incident that took place on the 25th day of May 1993 in Kimberley. MR SMILES My involvement was I’m a member of the marshall structure and I joined the marshall structure in 1990. MR TSHOLANKU I don’t think you understand my question that I’m addressing to you, I’ll try and rephrase it. We have ...[intervention] MS KHAMPEPE Mr Tsholanku, I wonder if he assist - the technician can assist Mr Smiles in making sure that he’s getting the translation in Afrikaans. MR TSHOLANKU Thank you Madam. Now Mr Smiles, I want you to listen carefully. On the 25th day of May 1993, there was an explosion in Kimberley ...[intervention] MS KHAMPEPE Sorry, to intervene again Mr Tsholanku, was it the 25th or the 24th - maybe that’s why he does not understand your question. MR TSHOLANKU Madam, I have it here as the 25th day of May, the reason being there are newspaper reports which appeared in the newspaper on the 26th and they referred to an incident that took place "yesterday" which I am inclined to believe was the 25th, that is why I refer to it as the incident of the 25th. I’ll try and explain to Mr Smiles as to exactly what is this incident that we’re talking about. ADV DE JAGER Mr Smiles, can you remember the date because in some of the papers it’s referred to as the 24th and now there’s evidence about the 25th according to the newspapers. Can you help us? MR SMILES I can’t remember. ADV DE JAGER You can’t remember, thank you. MR VISSER Maybe I may of assistance Mr Chairman, not by cross-examining but by giving you information, this matter was dealt with at the trial and it was established that it was a Tuesday the 25th of May, although all the applications for amnesty refer to it as the 24th, it was in fact the 25th. MR TSHOLANKU Thank you. Now, we know you were involved in some way or another in this particular blast, can you explain to the Committee as to exactly what was your involvement in this particular blast at the Trust Bank Centre as it was commonly known then? MR SMILES I remember the day I was contacted by the Major, there were some seats at the tickey stop and he found me there and picked me up and he took me to the arena, it was a march organised by ANC and COSAS but I was still in the motorcar. And while I was in the car we went with the march up to the OK - a four-way, an Indian centre. I got out with a white bag. MR TSHOLANKU Please continue. MR SMILES In the white bag was a handbag which was wrapped up in newspaper. I went with the march up to the Trust Bank building, when we got to the Trust Bank building I got out of the car, I got an instruction from my commander Laurens Mbatha and the instruction I got I accepted because he was a member of MK. MR TSHOLANKU What was the instruction that you received from Laurens Mbatha? MR SMILES The instruction I got from Laurens Mbatha was that we were close to the Bophuthatswana Consulate building and what happened, we had to give a signal into the Bophuthatswana building. MR TSHOLANKU Continue. MR SMILES And at the time when I got the hand grenade the mission to take care that nobody got hurt - I tried to do that. At the time when I threw the hand grenade - before I threw the hand grenade, the petitions had already been handed over and the marchers were returning. When the marchers were returning, that was the right time to throw the hand grenade into the Trust Bank building. At the time when I threw the hand grenade, I primed it and I hid it away so nobody could see it. At the time when I threw the hand grenade - the doors were still open and the people were leaving, then I took out the pin and I held the hand grenade and I threw it. At the moment when I threw the hand grenade and the security guard came out - there was a security guard, and he came out and the hand grenade hit him on the forehead, fell down and rolled away and that cause all the injuries and the death. MR TSHOLANKU You threw the hand grenade and it exploded as you explained, now after you threw the hand grenade, what did you do? MR SMILES I went to the other side, I went and laid down and I stood up and when I got up I crossed the same road. There was a place downstairs - and then I smashed the whole pin, then the police came and pulled us out from that place. To be quite honest it was very disturbing ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER You went across the road and then - you said something about: "to splash it" or something with the pin or hand grenade, what precisely are you saying? MR SMILES There are two pins, there’s one you pull out and the other one you unscrew - I took out that pin, that would have been evidence so I smashed that pin. MR TSHOLANKU And this you did across the road from the Trust Bank Centre - if I understand you? MR SMILES No, the pin - on the other side there was a building, there were toilets - I went there and I then stashed them away there. MR TSHOLANKU You destroyed the pins in the toilets downstairs in this building across the road? MR SMILES That is correct. MR TSHOLANKU ...[inaudible] you stashed the pins in this toilet - this building across the road, what happened? What did you do? MR SMILES I went outside, I walked and I went to the ANC office and I wanted to report the matter to my commander and I had to explain that is was unsuccessful, there were people who were injured. We then took the bakkie, phoned the ambulances for the people who were injured. MR TSHOLANKU When you went to the ANC offices to report this matter to the commander, was the commander there? MR SMILES Yes, that’s correct, he was present. MR TSHOLANKU And you reported that the operation was unsuccessful, what did you do from there - having reported that the operation was unsuccessful, what did you do from there? MR SMILES I helped him to pick up people who could not stand up. MR TSHOLANKU Was that at the scene of the blast? MR SMILES Yes. MR TSHOLANKU What did you do with these people, where did you take them? MR SMILES We took them to the hospital. MR TSHOLANKU Having taken these people to hospital, what happened thereafter? MR SMILES What happened afterwards is I went home. MR TSHOLANKU Now, can you remember exactly when was the hand grenade handed over to you on this particular day? MR SMILES It was at the time of the march - in the motor vehicle. MR TSHOLANKU And who handed the grenade to you? MR SMILES It was Laurens Mbatha. MR TSHOLANKU And when he handed the grenade to you, were you the only two in the car? MR SMILES We were three, I can’t remember who the other person was. MR TSHOLANKU You mentioned that he gave you an order, can you remember exactly how the order was structured when the order was given to you? MR SMILES Repeat it. MR TSHOLANKU You mentioned that he gave you an order, can you remember exactly how the order was structured when he gave you this particular order? MR SMILES That is correct, the order was that I had to take care that nobody would be injured but the hand grenade should go in but unfortunately at the moment when I threw it, that was the time when the security guard came out and the hand grenade fell on his face and then it caused the death and injury. But the aim of the hand grenade was not aimed at Mokone. MR TSHOLANKU He gave you an order, did he - prior or after giving you this order, explain to you the reason why he wants you to throw this hand grenade? Did he explain to you? MR SMILES Explain it. MR TSHOLANKU He gave you an order and said you must launch or throw this hand grenade into the building - now what I want you to tell the Committee is, did he give you a reason or a motivation as to why he wants you to throw in the hand grenade into the building? MR SMILES The reason was that we are close to the Bophuthatswana building - they were the people repressing the people in Bophuthatswana and they didn’t have any feelings for the people, that is why I accepted the order. MR TSHOLANKU Did you not question this order? Did you question the order? MR SMILES No. MR TSHOLANKU When you launched this or threw this hand grenade into the - towards the building itself, did you know what you were doing? Did you have experience pertaining to throwing of hand grenades? MR SMILES The experience - I had experienced to throw but not really training. MR TSHOLANKU So, if I understand you correctly, you were trained on how to throw the hand grenade not with the hand grenade itself? MR SMILES That is correct. CHAIRPERSON I didn’t hear your question. MR TSHOLANKU My questions was whether he had experience in throwing of hand grenades and the response was he knew how to throw the hand grenade but not the hand grenade - he never had training with hand grenades themselves. The follow-up thereto was whether - do I understand him to say he knew how to throw hand grenades but he had never had training whatsoever with the throwing of a live hand grenade itself and his was yes. MS KHAMPEPE Is he saying he had never thrown a hand grenade before? MR TSHOLANKU Let me clear it up with him Madam. Mr Smiles, before this incident itself - before the blast at the Trust Bank Centre in Kimberley, have you ever had - have you thrown a hand grenade before? MR SMILES Yes. MR TSHOLANKU Was this the second time that you had thrown a grenade in your ...[intervention] MR SMILES Yes, at a military base in Galishewe. MR TSHOLANKU Have you applied for amnesty for that particular incident? MR SMILES Those are things that Mr Rodney and Mr Denzil had to handle - we have applied. MR TSHOLANKU There has been reference to a number of statements, amongst others statements of Sipho Mbatwa who says he’s the person that threw the hand grenade on this particular incident. Can you share any comments with us pertaining to that? MR VISSER Sipho Mbatwa didn’t give that evidence Mr Chairman, may I just remind you. MR TSHOLANKU Sipho Mbatwa did not give that evidence but statements made by Sipho Mbatwa have been referred to - that’s exactly how I couched my question, I’m inviting a comment from Mr Smiles pertaining to factors that are already in the possession of the Committee, that Sipho Mbatwa is the person that said he - I could be wrong with the name, but one of the convicted individuals - let me just confirm the name of the convicted individual so as not cause any confusion. MR VISSER My learned friend refers to Mtemukosi Nkotla Mr Chairman, there’s nothing wrong with ...[intervention] MR TSHOLANKU Mtemukosi Nkotla, Mr Chairman - I’m sorry, that is how I wanted to couch my question to Mr Smiles. If I may continue? MS KHAMPEPE I think Mr Visser, it’s Nkosinatu not ...[intervention] MR VISSER Not Mtemukosi, I’m sorry, it’s Nkosinatu Nkotla yes - but then the question is correct. MR TSHOLANKU If I may continue Mr Chairman. There is information before the Committee that somebody else by the name of Nkosinatu was the person that lobbed or threw the hand grenade to the Trust Bank Centre, what is your comment pertaining to that? MR SMILES That is not correct. I want to explain, it wasn’t them. MR TSHOLANKU Mr Smiles, reference was also made to a statement that is purported to have been made by yourself on the 27th day September ‘93, wherein you in paragraph 7 say "The hand grenade you got from somebody that is unknown to you but who allegedly comes from Johannesburg" Do you remember that statement? MR SMILES Yes, I remember it. MR TSHOLANKU Can you explain that particular paragraph - that you got this hand grenade from somebody that came from Johannesburg? MR SMILES During that time, there wasn’t time to really give information because I didn’t trust the police with what they could do with my commander if I told them. And then secondly, I had to ensure it and I had to protect him and so I had to say that I got it from Johannesburg but today we’re here to talk the truth and what happened is that I actually got it from him. MR TSHOLANKU Now, are you saying the sole reason why paragraph 7 was included in that statement was to afford your commander some form of protection, do I understand you to say that? MR SMILES Yes. MR TSHOLANKU Now, there’s also a statement which is purported to have been made by yourself on the 8th day of June ‘96 where in one of the paragraphs I think - do you know that statement, if I may ask? MR SMILES Yes, I remember. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, before you get there - do you have a copy of your statement dated 27th September 1993? MR TSHOLANKU He does have Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Is that your signature appearing on page 3? MR SMILES Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you - is that your signature appearing at the bottom of pages 1 and 2? MR SMILES That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Well, then we can take this to be Exhibit A. MR TSHOLANKU Thank you Mr Chairman. There’s also a statement dated the 8th day of June 1996 ...[intervention] MS KHAMPEPE Can you tell us in which bundle and the page on that bundle? MR TSHOLANKU Madam, it was ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Page 11, bundle 2. MR TSHOLANKU Yes, unfortunately mine is not part of the bundle, it’s a loose page. Now, do you know the statement that was made on the 8th day of June 1996 by yourself? MR SMILES Yes. MR TSHOLANKU Are you aware of the contents of that particular statement? MR SMILES Repeat it. MR TSHOLANKU Are you aware of the contents of that particular statement? MR SMILES No. MR TSHOLANKU That was made by yourself on the 8th day of June 1996? MR SMILES Yes. MR TSHOLANKU Do you agree with what is in that particular statement? MR SMILES No, I don’t agree but I can remember the statement. MR TSHOLANKU Can you explain to the Committee why don’t you agree with the contents of this statement that you made of the 8th day of ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I’m sorry to interrupt you, what does this witness mean when he says he’s not aware of the contents? I don’t understand whether he’s saying he did make this statement, things which stand in here did come from him but they are not true or whether he is saying: "These things in here did not even come from me". MR SMILES Mr Chairman, let me clarify. My understanding was that he initially said he does not know what the contents of the statement if and I then asked the question again to which he answered yes, he remembers the contents of the statement which was made on the 8th day of June ‘96. I think there was a misunderstanding between myself and Mr Smiles, but I’ll ask him to clarify your concern Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR TSHOLANKU Mr Smiles, I referred to a statement that you purported to have made on the 8th day of June ‘96 - now I’m showing you this statement, do you know this particular statement? MR SMILES Yes, that’s correct - I know it. MR TSHOLANKU Are you aware of the contents, that is what is written here in this particular statement? MR SMILES Yes. MR TSHOLANKU Can you explain why was this statement made by yourself on the 8th day of June ‘96 and explain the contents of the statement to the Committee. MR SMILES To explain, the Investigation Unit came to our home and at that time when they came there and they asked questions, they asked which car was that - they saw a White man and a Black man going into my house and I asked: "What was that"? So I stood outside in the street and I waited for them to come out and then I went in and I asked who they were and they said they were the Investigation Unit and I asked which one and they said the TRC. I asked what are they looking for and they said I had to go and see them at the Savoy Hotel. MR TSHOLANKU Continue. MR SMILES I went to the Savoy Hotel, I met Doctor Alex Boraine and Sipho and there was a question concerning the incident of the hand grenade but I didn’t trust them to give them the full information because I was being threatened. But I went to them to give them the information but they threatened me and I felt that I then had to make such a statement but my intention was to give them the full information of the incident and not to lie to them and they left me. I went to Laurens Mbatha, I told him about the statement that I made and he took me away and he said to me: "Tell them the truth". We went to them, they weren’t there, they’d already left and they were here at the hearing and then I did the statement under oath. Because I didn’t understand the TRC situation and that is why I made this statement but my intention was to give them all the information. CHAIRPERSON Which full statement are you referring to, this one of the 8th of June? MR TSHOLANKU Mr Chairman, my understanding is that he is dissociating himself to the statement of the 8th of June. He says after he made this statement, he then went to Laurens Mbatha and told him what had happened and Laurens Mbatha then took him to the HRV hearings where he then made a statement under oath. I’ll establish with the applicant as to which statement under oath is he referring to. CHAIRPERSON But you promised me earlier on when I wanted to clarify it to myself, when I wanted to find out whether this witness is saying: "The contents hereof come from me but they are not true" or whether he’s saying: "They don’t come from me at all" - you said you are clarifying with the witness. MR TSHOLANKU Yes, Mr Chairman with respect, this is what he said - he said the statement of the 8th day of June ‘96 comes from him but that information is not true because when he made that statement, he did not understand the workings of the TRC, that is why immediately thereafter he went to Laurens Mbatha to tell him about this incident and Laurens said to him he must then tell the truth - that is why he then made a statement under oath, that is how I understand him to be. ADV DE JAGER Mr Smiles, when you met Doctor Boraine and Sipho, did you have a look at this statement on page 11, the one that your advocate is showing to you? MR SMILES Yes, I had a look at it but I didn’t feel comfortable about it because I wanted to give them full information but I was afraid and that is why I gave this statement. ADV DE JAGER Because you already said there was a threat. MR SMILES Yes, they threatened me because I asked them was I going home, they didn’t say anything they just looked at me and I said: "No, but then I’m going to jail now" - so I had to lie. ADV DE JAGER But what we want to know - the things being said here, those are the things that you told them but it’s not truth? MR SMILES That is correct. ADV DE JAGER But it is the information that you gave them, it was written down correctly? MR SMILES Yes, that’s true. ADV DE JAGER Yes, it was written down correctly but it’s not the truth? MR SMILES Yes, that is correct. MR TSHOLANKU Thank you Mr Chairman. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Tsholanku, may I just get some clarification - I believe a statement was made to Mr Boraine and Sipho, can we just get clarity on who is this Sipho, whether we are talking about Sipho Mbatwa or Sipho who is working for the TRC? MR TSHOLANKU Do you want the applicant to answer that? MS KHAMPEPE Yes. MR TSHOLANKU You have made mention of Doctor Boraine and Sipho, which Sipho are you talking about? MR SMILES The one who is working for the TRC Investigation Unit. MR TSHOLANKU Do you perhaps have his surname? MR SMILES No, I haven’t got his surname. ADV DE JAGER I think we’re satisfied that we know who he’s talking about now. MR TSHOLANKU Thank you. You then mention a statement that you made under oath at the HRV hearings, is that correct? MR SMILES Yes. MR TSHOLANKU Is that perhaps the statement that is on page 39 to page 41 of bundle 2 - I’ll show the statement so you can have a look at it and see if that is what you told the HRV hearings. I’m referring to page 39 of bundle 2 to page 42, if you could read the statement and see if that is what you’ve told the hearings, you don’t have to read everything. MR SMILES This is the statement I understand and I gave it like this to the TRC. MR TSHOLANKU Thank you Mr Smiles. When you made this statement, when you ...[intervention] MS KHAMPEPE Mr Tsholanku, can we rather refer to it as evidence because it really was evidence which was given to the TRC as opposed to the other statement? MR TSHOLANKU Thank you Madam, I’ll gladly do that. Evidence that you gave to the HRV hearings - when you gave the evidence, were you comfortable with people in and around you? What was the position there? MR SMILES Please explain again. MR TSHOLANKU When you afforded the HRV this particular evidence from page 39 to 41, were you comfortable then with people around you and what was happening there? MR SMILES Yes. MR TSHOLANKU There has also been information brought forward to the hearing that at some point in time you were taken to a police station around here for purposes of handing you over to the police, do you have recollection of that incident? MR SMILES Yes, I can remember that, it was arranged that I be handed over to the police. Mr Isaacs and Mr Laurens Mbatha - it was on the 7th floor in Transvaal Road, when we got there they explained to the police official: "Here’s the person who committed the crime". When we got there, the lawyer and the commander said: "Here is Smiles, here is the person" - with this statement that came from Rodney. These people didn’t do anything, they said nothing - "No Smiles, you can go home, you are a liar, you can go home" with the lawyer and with Mbatha. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I’m not sure whether I’m the only one with sensitive ears in this building but would you please request the witness to leave that microphone alone, I really can’t handle it anymore - I don’t know whether it’s just the channel that I’m on. MR TSHOLANKU I’ll keep his hands off the mike Mr Chairman. Mr Smiles, before this hand grenade incident, how long had you been a member of the ANC or the member of the particular unit falling under the command of Mr Mbatha? MR SMILES I joined the civics in 1990, 1991 I joined the ANC Youth League, I joined the MK structure in 1992. In 1992, I had to leave the country because of the same incident - I still felt unhappy about the mother, I felt that the mother should know who was the person behind this whole event so I came back from Johannesburg. It was for me very difficult for me to explain because the family was in a very bad condition. MR TSHOLANKU Now, what I want to find out from you is - ever since you joined this command structure under the command of Major Mbatha, have you ever at any given point in time disobeyed an order that was given by him? MR SMILES I never refused an instruction from him. MR TSHOLANKU Why is it that you’ve never disobeyed an order? MR SMILES Sometimes if you refused an order there could be drastic action against you, not to say that he would do it personally but an order was an order. MS KHAMPEPE May I interpose Mr Tsholanku? MR TSHOLANKU You’re welcome. MS KHAMPEPE I don’t know whether I have taken the correct notes here, did Mr Smiles say that in 1992 he left the country because of this incident? MR TSHOLANKU He said in 1992 he wanted to leave the country because of this incident but he then returned back from Johannesburg but I can ask him to clarify that - whether it was in 1992 or later, what is it that he exactly wanted to convey. Mr Smiles, can you clarify the point pertaining to your wanting to skip the country pertaining to this particular incident, when was that and what happened? MR SMILES It was in 1992. MR TSHOLANKU Are you sure it was 1992 Mr Smiles? MR SMILES Yes, it was 1992 - I’ve still got my passport here. MS KHAMPEPE Did you leave the country in 1992 after this incident? MR SMILES I wanted to leave the country, I should have left the country. ADV DE JAGER Why did you have to leave the country? MR SMILES About the same incident. ADV DE JAGER I think what the lawyer is asking you was that the incident was only in ‘93, why is it that you wanted to leave in ‘92? MR SMILES Then I misunderstood him. ADV DE JAGER Now, when did you want to leave the country - after the incident? MR SMILES After the incident, that’s correct. MR TSHOLANKU Thank you, that will be the evidence of Mr Smiles, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TSHOLANKU CHAIRPERSON Professor de Koker? PROF DE KOKER Mr Chairman, may I venture to suggest that this might be a good moment for a five minute break, I’d appreciate it if you could allow me to get my notes in order and it might also break this rather long afternoon. CHAIRPERSON I think we’ll proceed to Mr Bode. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BODE Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Smiles, I represent several of the victims and more specifically in the first instance, the parents of Izekial Mokone. The parents of Mr Mokone are present today and I firstly want to know, did you know the deceased Izekial Mokone? MR SMILES No. MR BODE Did you at any stage go to the house of the parents of the deceased or at any other place went to them and apologised to them for your action? MR SMILES No. Mr Bode, it was difficult at that time - I don’t know how the people feel, there may be people who feel a bit better, some felt bad about it - that’s why I couldn’t go. MR BODE Did you - after the incident had occurred, did you go to the ANC and did you say that you threw the hand grenade and that you accept responsibility, did you do that? MR SMILES Mr Bode, I went to my Major, he was in the ANC office, I explained about the incident - that is correct. MR BODE: Besides you commander Laurens Mbatha, did you go to any other person in the ANC and said that you had committed it and that you accept responsibility? MR SMILES Mr Bode, I work on instructions - I cannot go to anyone else, I just work through Laurens. MR BODE You must remember that the parents of Izekial, they weren’t present with the hand grenade attack, they don’t know what happened but they have a lot of pain about this loss of Izekial and they specifically asked me whether would here in front of all the people, be prepared to say to them that you are sorry for what you have done, that you regret the fact what happened to his son. Will you say it today? MR SMILES Yes, I explained it last year and I want to explain it again, I apologise for that what I did. Those who were injured I have to apologise, that was the only choice I have. MR BODE You knew that the Trust Bank building in a high building, approximately 10-15 floors high, is that so? MR SMILES Yes. MR BODE When you went to the Trust Bank building and you knew that you were going to throw this hand grenade, you also knew that is was approximately midday and it’s in the middle - it was a week day, what did you think of the other people who could be present, people who weren’t part of this march, people who weren’t part of - members of the organisation? What about the people working there, the people who were in the shops, the people passing by, what did you think about these people? MR SMILES What I thought was - it wasn’t my intention to hurt them. MR BODE But didn’t you think that if you threw a hand grenade at such a place at that time - that time of the week, that other people could be injured? Didn’t you think that other people could be present in that Trust Bank building? MR SMILES As I explained the first time, the aim of the hand grenade was that the people had to go back, they had to move away - at that stage I would throw it into the Trust Bank building, that was the aim. MR BODE Those were the people who were part of the march, the marchers but what about the other people - the people like my client Mr Dan Pethani, that was where he worked - he’s allowed to walk there, what about him? MR SMILES What I explained and what I say and I also asked forgiveness in my amnesty application for him. MR BODE Several of my clients, Mr Dan Pethani, Miss Audrey Gorrel, Miss Millicent Mtebe, Mr Frank Moremedi and Paul Kock, all of them had to go to hospital because of injuries they sustained and up to today they still suffer from these injuries, they still have shrapnel in their bodies and the possibility of medical attention in the future is not excluded. And my instruction from these clients - these people who still suffer because of the action, is that today you should here in the presence of the public apologise to them without any reservation, without holding back that you say that you are sorry for what you have done because you apparently haven’t done it. Are you prepared today to do it? MR SMILES Yes, I am prepared and I apologise. I don’t know whether they are here or where they are but I believe they can hear me and I apologise and that’s all I can say. MR BODE Did you ever at any stage besides reporting to Laurens Mbatha, did you ever go to any of these people that I mentioned or any of the other victims perhaps who aren’t here, did you ever go to them and say to them: "I’m sorry for what I did and I give my apology"? MR SMILES I remember this one girl, I know her, we worked together, we are both in the army, that was the only one because I trust her and she has given me forgiveness. MR BODE Mr Chairperson, I do not have any further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BODE CHAIRPERSON Professor de Koker? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY PROF DE KOKER Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Smiles, when did you learn first about this march? MR SMILES It wasn’t so long beforehand. PROF DE KOKER It might perhaps be easier if I continue in Afrikaans, it you find it more comfortable and you might exclude any translation problems. Did you know the day before of this march or did you hear about it that morning? MR SMILES I heard that afternoon. PROF DE KOKER That was the afternoon beforehand? MR SMILES Yes. PROF DE KOKER What did you know of this march? MR SMILES What I knew was that memorandums would be presented concerning the Bophuthatswana Administration. PROF DE KOKER What were your movements on that morning of the incident? MR SMILES Could you just explain that please? PROF DE KOKER What did you do that morning before the incident? Where were you? When did you join the march? MR SMILES I was in the street and I sat at the four-way tickey stop and I waited for the march - that was our main place. PROF DE KOKER Did you sit there until the march arrived? MR SMILES Yes, I sat there until my commander came to pick me up. PROF DE KOKER And then got with him into the motor - you said there were three people. MR SMILES Yes, it was myself, it was the Major and I forgot the other person’s name - I will in fact be able to recognise him. PROF DE KOKER When did you get to the instruction to throw the hand grenade? MR SMILES That was on the same day in the car. PROF DE KOKER Was it the same day or was it during that drive? MR SMILES It was during the same day, it was the same day. PROF DE KOKER It wasn’t immediately when you got into the car? MR SMILES No, I got my instructions in the car. PROF DE KOKER Could I just perhaps make this clearer - I want to get you the chronology of the incidents, I want to know how everything fits together. You got into the car with Major Mbatha and an unknown third person, how long were you travelling around before he gave you the instruction? Where exactly in town because you were now travelling in this car, where did he give you the instruction? MR SMILES I got into the car, we went to the Arena where the whole march assembled. PROF DE KOKER As I understand it you sat on the wall when the march got there - when the people arrived, is that correct? MR SMILES Just explain please. PROF DE KOKER As I understood it, is that you sat on the wall until the march passed you and then the car also passed you? MR SMILES No, the march did not yet arrive - I sat, the car came and it picked me up. MS KHAMPEPE Professor de Koker, when has he said that he sat on the wall - that’s not what he has stated before us? Are you not referring to the evidence which was led before the HRV Committee? PROF DE KOKER I am following that evidence to compare it with the evidence given to us today. MS KHAMPEPE I think you’ve got to make it simpler to Mr Smiles by stating that to him, we are also getting confused because I thought you were referring to the evidence which has been led before us today. PROF DE KOKER Actually, what I was trying to do was to clarify the issue because the statements made this afternoon was not very clear as to the chronology or events and that is what I’m trying to clarify before perhaps taking up issues which are at variance with one another. MS KHAMPEPE No, I understand that, it’s just that it wasn’t clear to him that you were clarifying issues. PROF DE KOKER Thank you very much. Mr Smiles, I am still trying to exactly clarify what you did there that morning. According to your evidence given today, you sat at tickey stop - there was a seat? MR SMILES Yes, that’s correct. PROF DE KOKER You were then picked up by the Major in the car? MR SMILES Yes. PROF DE KOKER What happened then? MR SMILES We then drove off to the point where the marchers assembled to go to the Bophuthatswana Consulate. PROF DE KOKER And where is this specific point that you’re now referring to? MR SMILES That is the arena that is in the Black township in Vergenoeg. PROF DE KOKER What happened then? MR SMILES We then drove behind the march, we drove with them up to the OK - that’s the four-way tickey stop that’s in town. PROF DE KOKER What happened then? MR SMILES I got out with the white bag and in the white bag there was a hand grenade. ADV DE JAGER Did you get out of the car with the white bag? MR SMILES Yes, that is correct, I got the white bag and that is with what I got out. ADV DE JAGER Where did you get it? MR SMILES I got it from my commander. PROF DE KOKER Who was driving the car at that stage? MR SMILES It’s the same person that I can’t remember. PROF DE KOKER The instruction was given while this person was driving the car, Major Mbatha was in the car and you? MR SMILES Yes, that’s correct PROF DE KOKER And according to you there were three people who were aware of this instruction to you, is that correct? MR SMILES No. PROF DE KOKER Could you just explain that? MR SMILES I would actually want you to give the answer to me. ADV DE JAGER I think what the Advocate is asking you is that you said the three of you were in the car and you also say that in the car you got the instruction to throw the hand grenade? MR SMILES Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER Now, the Advocate says to you: "So you knew about it, the Major knew about it and the driver of the car knew about the instruction"? MR SMILES Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER So, the three of you knew about that? MR SMILES Yes, that is correct. PROF DE KOKER According to the evidence of Mr Mbatha, only you and him had any knowledge of this instruction, is that correct - this statement that was made? Did only you and Major Mbatha have any knowledge about this instruction as testified by Major Mbatha or did you, Major Mbatha and the unknown driver of this car know of this instruction? MR SMILES I got the instruction from Mbatha. PROF DE KOKER In the presence of a third person? MR SMILES Yes that is correct. PROF DE KOKER Who now also had knowledge of this? MR SMILES Yes. PROF DE KOKER At this stage as I understand it, you were at the OK building when you got out of the car with this bag, how far is the OK building from the Trust Bank building? MR SMILES It’s some distance, I don’t really know - it’s a few street blocks. PROF DE KOKER What did you do there? MR SMILES I walked with the march and this bag. I took the hand grenade from the bag so that I could not be seen - we don’t trust anyone, we didn’t trust anyone at that stage. PROF DE KOKER Where did you put the hand grenade? MR SMILES I put it under my T-shirt. PROF DE KOKER Under your T-shirt? MR SMILES Under my shirt. PROF DE KOKER But you had on a T-shirt? MR SMILES I had on a T-shirt. PROF DE KOKER How did you conceal this hand grenade under a T-shirt because I don’t follow that. MR SMILES I had on a T-shirt that is a skippa, I didn’t have a shirt and I put it over here so if I put it in from the top it can’t fall out. PROF DE KOKER What did you have to do during this march? Were you a marshall? MR SMILES I acted as a peacemaker. PROF DE KOKER But you also said that you were a marshall regarding this march, did you act as a marshall during this act? MR SMILES No, I acted as somebody who had an order to execute. PROF DE KOKER So, you did not act as a marshall during this march? MR SMILES I was - I didn’t act like a marshall, I was a marshall in 1990 - in 1993 I was in the MK. PROF DE KOKER The march proceeded up to the Trust Bank building, how many memo’s were handed over? MR SMILES As far as I can remember, there were three. I can’t remember whether it’s three or four and then it was time to prime the hand grenade and I knew that the people were going to turn back. PROF DE KOKER You said you had this hand grenade under your T-shirt and when you threw it, you saw that nobody - you made sure that nobody saw you, is that correct? MR SMILES That is correct. PROF DE KOKER How did you make sure that nobody could see you throwing this hand grenade? MR SMILES After I saw that it was difficult for somebody to see what I had - I took care that nobody could see what I had under my T-shirt. PROF DE KOKER How do you throw a hand grenade so that nobody can see it? Can you demonstrate how you did it? INTERPRETER The witness is demonstrating by pulling out the pin and then throwing it overhand. MR SMILES And then I went and lay down because I know a hand grenade when it explodes could hurt me too, so I went and lay down. PROF DE KOKER What you demonstrated now - for the purposes of the record, is how the pin is removed from the hand grenade and then you knelt somewhat and you demonstrated a bowling action? MR SMILES That’s correct. PROF DE KOKER How could you perform an action like without anyone of the 150 people there seeing you? MR SMILES Just explain that to me again. PROF DE KOKER You said you threw that hand grenade but made sure that nobody saw you. What you just demonstrated was very visible, you could easily see it. With 150 people around you, how could you say you threw it so that nobody could see it? MR SMILES The people were all concentrating on the memo’s and that’s what happened. PROF DE KOKER Where were you standing when the hand grenade was thrown? MR SMILES There was a little tree at that place where I was standing when I threw the grenade and it fell into the corner. PROF DE KOKER How many people were between you and the front of the building? MR SMILES I can’t estimate, it must be quite a lot. PROF DE KOKER Where was Major Mbatha standing at this stage? MR SMILES He was standing in front. PROF DE KOKER Who gave you the signal to throw the hand grenade? MR SMILES That was Major Laurens Mbatha. PROF DE KOKER How did he give you the sign? MR SMILES The sign was when the marchers were returning, then I had to throw the hand grenade but unfortunately when I threw the hand grenade that was when the security guard came out and the hand grenade hit him in the face. PROF DE KOKER Mr Smiles, that was the instruction, is that correct? MR SMILES That’s correct. PROF DE KOKER But in your evidence you referred - evidence which you gave in Kimberley last year, which I may quote directly - page 40 of bundle 2 "When it was time to hand over the third petition, then there was a sign that I must throw this grenade and he lay down at the same time" Who gave you this signal to which you referred in your statement? MR SMILES I imagined it was him but it wasn’t him, I realised that afterwards in the TRC. PROF DE KOKER How did you come to realise that what you’d said here was wrong? You were drawing a picture here to the TRC, was somebody giving you a signal and falling down? MR SMILES What I’m trying to say is that I’m the one who lay down. PROF DE KOKER The evidence was quite clear on this point "There was a sign that I must throw this grenade and he laid down at the same time, so when I threw it I was weak" So this person to whom you refer cannot be yourself. According to your statement there was a signal first, the person fell down: "So when I threw it I was weak" Only then did you throw it - you couldn’t have referred to yourself there. PROF DE KOKER Did you get the signal from Major Mbatha? MR SMILES Yes, I did receive it. PROF DE KOKER How did you receive it? MR SMILES The sign ...[intervention] PROF DE KOKER How did he signal to you that you must throw it? MR SMILES He said to me I must make sure that nobody could get hurt. At the time when I threw it I had to take care that nobody could get hurt. ADV DE JAGER Either you’re not understanding it or maybe you don’t want to answer the question. Let’s look at it carefully, you got a signal "There was a sign that I must throw" There was a sign that you must throw the grenade: "And he lay down at the same time, so when I threw it I was weak" MR SMILES That’s correct, I was weak. ADV DE JAGER Now, who gave you the signal? MR SMILES Major Laurens Mbatha. ADV DE JAGER And what was the signal? MR SMILES I had to take care that nobody should get hurt. ADV DE JAGER Now, how did he give that signal, with his hands or what? MR SMILES No. ADV DE JAGER I’ve got another problem with this answer of yours because you say "Laurens gives a signal to throw - I imagined it was him but it wasn’t him" MR SMILES That’s correct. ADV DE JAGER Then it must have been someone else? MR SMILES Yes, that’s what I’ve explained, it wasn’t Laurens who lay down. ADV DE JAGER Then who was the other person who gave the signal and lay down? MR SMILES Laurens gave me the signal- it was my time. ADV DE JAGER Did he give the sign to say it’s now the time, you must throw? MR SMILES Because I knew that when the - he said the doors had to open and then I had to throw it inside. ADV DE JAGER Now please explain because I can’t understand it. You said: "Laurens gave the signal to throw, I imagined it was him but it wasn’t him", who was it? MR SMILES Just explain to me please. ADV DE JAGER You said: "Laurens gave the signal to throw, I imagined it was him" - that was the question, did Laurens give you the signal - "I thought it was him". MR SMILES I’m not quite clear about what’s going on here. ADV DE JAGER I also don’t understand that’s why I’m asking what do you mean by this? MR SMILES Please explain it to me very carefully that I can understand it properly. CHAIRPERSON In what language did you testify? MR SMILES I testified in Afrikaans. MS KHAMPEPE Did you at the HRV hearing say at any time that Mr Mbatha gave you a signal before throwing the hand grenade into the building, did you ever say that? MR SMILES Yes, I did say it. MS KHAMPEPE Why did you say that if you are now contending that that is not what actually happened? MR SMILES It is what happened. MS KHAMPEPE What happened, are you saying that you got a signal from Mr Mbatha to throw the hand grenade? Take your time Mr Smiles, the evidence that you are giving here is very important and it is a fundamental requirement to your application that you should give a full disclosure by that you must be honest. So, we want to know, did you or did you not get a signal from Mr Mbatha to throw a hand grenade into the building? MR SMILES I did get a signal. MS KHAMPEPE So the evidence that you have just led now should be disregarded and we should now accept that you got a signal from Mr Mbatha and it was as a result of that signal that you threw the hand grenade into the building. Is that the evidence that you want us to accept now? MR SMILES Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON How did he give the signal? MR SMILES The signal was that when the marchers were leaving and the doors were opening, I realised that this was the signal. CHAIRPERSON We are moving in circles it seems to me. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Smiles, have you been listening to what we were saying to you? We are getting very confused with your evidence. You are here to make things easier for us and not to make things difficult, we need to know the truth. MR SMILES Can I just have a break for two or three minutes because I’m a little bit confused. MS KHAMPEPE We will afford you a break because please it’s very important that you must tell us the truth. MR SMILES Yes, Madam. MS KHAMPEPE And don’t come with a truth which is going to be negotiated around circles. CHAIRPERSON I think we will give you more than three minutes. What we will do is, we will allow Professor de Koker to proceed on other aspects since he’s not going to finish today, then you’ll have more than just the three minutes to think about it and tomorrow morning I’m sure you would have cleared your mind up even better. So, I think you can proceed with other aspects. PROF DE KOKER Thank you Mr Chairman. MR TSHOLANKU Excuse me Mr Chairman, may I interpose? I understand it is in the interest of Mr Smiles that he is afforded more time to recollect everything that he has to put forth but this particular pertinent issue that is causing the Committee problems now pertaining to the signal, I would appreciate it if it is cleared before we go home today, lest it is - when he comes back tomorrow, it is deemed in a very dim view that he might have been influenced by somebody to say something different to what he’s saying today. I’d rest comfortable knowing very well that that has been cleared up Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON I don’t think there will be a basis for that. MR TSHOLANKU Thank you Mr Chairman. MS KHAMPEPE Unless of course Mr Tsholanku, you want to persist that we give you two minutes? I don’t know whether Mr Smiles can really recollect himself within two minutes. MR TSHOLANKU Madam, as long as the Commission assures me that whatever comes round would not be viewed in a dim view - in a dim light tomorrow, that he might have been influenced and then at the end of the day it prejudices him, that’s my main concern. CHAIRPERSON We will not if there will be no basis for it. MR TSHOLANKU Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON I think it’s about - we are going close to 4 o’clock and I think we can’t adjourn for three minutes and then come back, I think we should proceed and make use of the balance of the time. There are other aspects on which you’re going to cross-examine anyway. PROF DE KOKER Thank you Chairman. Mr Smiles, you testified that you were wearing a T-shirt, did you wear anything over your T-shirt, a jersey, a jacket? MR SMILES No. PROF DE KOKER I want to fix the Committee’s attention to page 16 bundle 2, and that is the declaration made in Kimberley of Mr Sipho Moses Mbatwa. In the middle of the page Mr Mbatwa said - he explained he was walking around at the back and keeping an eye on the crowds "So the process of me walking around there, then this chap came up to me - Smiles came up to me. He then opened his jacket like this but then I saw what I thought was a grenade" Mr Smiles, this evidence is to the effect that you were wearing a jacket and that you opened this jacket and which made Mr Mbatwa see that you had a hand grenade, is it correct? MR SMILES No, it is not correct, I did not wear a jacket. MS KHAMPEPE Do you know personally Mr Sipho Mbatwa? MR SMILES Yes, I know him. PROF DE KOKER Could I also fix the Commission’s attention on page 18 in the same bundle about two thirds down "I then left the ANC office to go to our office" This is still the evidence of Mr Mbatwa: "I then left the ANC office to go to our office. I was with Mafu Dawids on that morning when Smiles came running up to us and said he did it. I didn’t say anything, just kept on walking - I don’t know if Mafu Dawids heard him" Mr Smiles, that is evidence of Mr Mbatwa that the morning after the incident you went to him and Mr Mafu Dawids and said that you had done it. This evidence of Mr Mbatwa, is this correct? MR SMILES I really can’t remember that I met him and Mafu on that day, I remember that I only met the Major. I don’t say that I did or didn’t, I can’t really remember but I can remember meeting the Major. PROF DE KOKER So you can’t remember whether you directly after this incident - the next morning, told people that you were responsible for all the pain and hurt? MR SMILES I remember that I told this to the Major but the other people, I didn’t trust them to inform them about this incident. PROF DE KOKER You said that you didn’t trust them to inform them, Mr Mbatwa testified on page 18 that you informed him. MR SMILES That is what I was saying: "I can’t remember", I can only remember that I was with the major and I only explained to him about the incident. PROF DE KOKER That is what you say but you don’t reject this evidence or testimony, you only say that you can’t remember MR SMILES Yes. PROF DE KOKER So, it could be possible that you informed Mr Mbatwa and Mr Dawids that you had in fact done it, it could be possible? MR SMILES Yes, that’s what I’m saying I can’t remember - I only work through him, not through other people. PROF DE KOKER But you say that you only work through him and he says that you came running to them and said that you had done it. MR SMILES Sorry Sir ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON He cannot remember. MR SMILES You asked the question a few times and you’re making me look stupid. PROF DE KOKER I realise Mr Smiles, that you might experience problems with your memory but on the other hand, you have a very clear recollection that you only mentioned this to Major Mbatha. MR SMILES It’s impossible - I met with the Major, I don’t say that I didn’t meet people but what I can remember was that I actually saw the Major that day. ADV DE JAGER You said you didn’t trust other people. MR SMILES That is correct. ADV DE JAGER So, would you have informed any other person if you didn’t trust them? MR SMILES No, I would have explained it to the Committee. ADV DE JAGER But if you had told other people, then the next morning they could have gone to the police and said that there is this person ...[intervention] MR SMILES I went to the police and they chased me away. ADV DE JAGER Mr Smiles, you didn’t go to the police the next morning, it was three months later that you went to the police. MR SMILES The police had the idea that those were the people, so what could I do? ADV DE JAGER Mr Smiles, please listen - you make it very difficult for yourself, you didn’t go to the police the next morning? MR SMILES Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER It was only three months later that you went to the police, that was in September. MR SMILES Because we saw that this was causing a problem in the community and that was so that we could explain what had happened. ADV DE JAGER Did you tell the community or just the police? MR SMILES I told the Major. ADV DE JAGER And the community knew nothing of that? MR SMILES Because I still couldn’t trust them. ADV DE JAGER And at this stage you also told us that you had problems with the community but you explained nothing to the community? MR SMILES It was very difficult to explain it, so it was very difficult for me to tell it to them. PROF DE KOKER How many people were in the foyer of the Trust Bank building when you threw the hand grenade? MR SMILES I couldn’t count them - many. PROF DE KOKER Do you understand my question correctly? How many people were inside the building when you threw the grenade to the building. MR SMILES I can’t say how many. PROF DE KOKER You had a clear instruction from Major Mbatha that you to ensure that no-one would be killed in the hand grenade attack, how did you see to it that that would not happen? MR SMILES I ensured that nobody would be killed but what happened was that this hand grenade fell on the face. PROF DE KOKER Mr Smiles with respect, you said you had an instruction that you had to prevent loss of life, this hand grenade had to fall with - inside the building, but now you say at that stage there were many people within the building. MR SMILES I thought you referred to people outside of the building. PROF DE KOKER That is why I said to you clearly it was people inside of the building, how many people were inside of the building? MR SMILES I didn’t count, I also didn’t see and my instruction was I just had to get it inside the building. PROF DE KOKER But Mr Smiles, how did you then follow this instruction to ensure that there would not be any loss of life inside the building where this hand grenade had to explode, if you didn’t have a look to see whether there were any people still in the building? MR SMILES It’s a difficult question but I will answer it. I worked according to my instruction - I don’t know whether you’re not understanding me, I worked according to my instruction, I had to make sure that there weren’t people who would be killed. PROF DE KOKER But what you say here Mr Smiles, is that you didn’t follow that instruction. The instruction was to throw the hand grenade into the building, that is where the hand grenade had to explode - that was the instruction. MR SMILES Yes. PROF DE KOKER And there you had to ensure that no-one else would be injured. MR SMILES Yes, that is correct, I now understand what you say but unfortunately if it didn’t fall onto the security guard - on his face, people would not have been killed. PROF DE KOKER If it didn’t fall onto the security guard it would have fallen into the building - inside, where you say there were people, you didn’t make the effort to count the people. MR SMILES That is what I’m trying to explain, I can’t say whether there were people inside the building. PROF DE KOKER Now, how did you ensure ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Sorry, he didn’t say there were people in the building, you started it off - Professor de Koker surely - instead of building up to the point, you just said to the witness: "How many people were there in the building", without first asking the witness: "Were there people in the building"? - "Yes" - "How many were there". You know you jump to - you just went and said to this person: "How many people were there in the building", and he said: "They were uncountable". Now, were there people in the building? MR SMILES I can’t say if there were people inside the building, I can only remember that the security guard came out - I don’t know whether he came out of an office to go out but people inside, I can’t say. ADV DE JAGER Do you know if there were people behind him? MR SMILES Where behind? ADV DE JAGER People behind the security guard who was hit on the head? MR SMILES The person came out, he was on his way, he was walking, he wasn’t standing. ADV DE JAGER Yes, but were there people behind him who were also busy coming out or weren’t there? MR SMILES No, there weren’t. ADV DE JAGER I just want to ask you, you stood at the back when you threw the hand grenade? MR SMILES Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER And you told us that you fell down because you knew that a hand grenade can injure a person. MR SMILES That’s correct. ADV DE JAGER Did fall down because you could be injured? MR SMILES Yes, because I know of the explosion. ADV DE JAGER What about all the people between you and the building, couldn’t they also be injured? MR SMILES I explained, it wasn’t with intention but if the security guard didn’t come out, the hand grenade would have gone inside but unfortunately when I threw it, it hit him on the head and then it exploded - that was the unfortunate situation. CHAIRPERSON But didn’t you fall down before the hand grenade fell into the face of this man? MR SMILES Yes, I lay down. CHAIRPERSON So regardless of whether the hand grenade would have fallen inside or outside the building, you were laying down? MR SMILES No, the time that I threw it, I turned around and then I lay down - that was when I threw the hand grenade. CHAIRPERSON When you lay down, you had not yet known that the hand grenade would fall or hit the face of the security guard, why did you lie down? MR SMILES Because I heard that it was falling onto the ground. CHAIRPERSON But you were afraid that perhaps you could be injured, that is why you lay down? MR SMILES Yes. CHAIRPERSON But now Advocate de Jager is asking you: "But what about the people who stood in front of you - you didn’t tell them to lie down"? MR SMILES There wasn’t an opportunity to do that. CHAIRPERSON Professor de Koker, you should tell us once you reach a convenient point. PROF DE KOKER This will probably be a convenient point before we cross over in new ideas Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON We’ll adjourn at this point. And you will have to think clearly about the point that we asked you about. MR SMILES Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON We’ll adjourn until half past 9 tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS