amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1997-10-29 KIMBERLEY https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54761&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/kim/smiles2.htm WALTER SMILES: (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY PROF DE KOKER (cont) Mr Chairman, before we start with or before I proceed with cross-examination, I would like to address two specific issues which were raised earlier. The first concerned the trial of the people involved and the question right at the start of the proceedings, as to the submission of the evidence that Mr Smiles acknowledged at that stage, that he had thrown the hand grenade. It was unclear precisely what happened during the proceedings. In the meantime Advocate Mpshe has said that he has made available to the Committee, an extract from the record dealing with that particular day and specifically the evidence by Mr Mtlele. During his cross-examination, Advocate Potgieter put the specific affidavit dated the 27th of September to him. Now that was apparently put to him on - a few after the drafting of that affidavit on the 2nd of October. The State then said ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Advocate Potgieter put the affidavit to who? PROF DE KOKER Advocate Potgieter put the affidavit to Mr Mtlele and that is on page 181 of the record at paragraph numbered 30. The state then intervened and said that would be hearsay evidence unless the particular witness which was Mr Smiles was called, they then asked Mr Potgieter whether he was going to call the witness. Mr Potgieter then said he was unsure - it proceeded - he was unsure whether he was going to call the witness. They then argued for another 10 pages which brings us to page 189 and page 190 of the record. I see that the record is handed to the Committee members only now. Excuse me Mr Chairman, I proceeded on the basis that you had them in front of you already. "Pardon your Honour, I want to place on record that directly after the negotiations and when we adjourned, I told my learned friend - this reference is to Advocate Potgieter, that we were not going to use him Mr Smiles, as a witness. When he got to the police station in the presence of his advocate, it was told to him that the State was not interested in him and that he was regarded as a witness for the defence" So at that stage it was clear that he should have been called by the defence. On page 189, Advocate Potgieter refers at paragraph 10, to the date on which this affidavit was drawn - paragraph 10: "When did he make this statement Mr Potgieter? - recently, just a few days ago the 27th, what are we today, the 29th" and then he said the 2nd which meant the 2nd of October. Mr Potgieter continues: The court says: "Pardon" And then they continue and Mr Potgieter says in the next paragraph: "Yes, I understand what my learned friend is saying, we can get hold of him again" A bit further down, 25: Mr Chairman, that clearly shows - and if you can proceed to page 191, it is repeated and then on page 191, paragraph 30, Mr Potgieter closes by saying: Page 192: It is clear that this is not the kind of incident which could simply have slipped away as being unknown by the ANC because it was reported to their legal department and some matters were actually dealt with by the legal advisor, Mr Matthews Phosa himself. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, not that it really bothers me but why do you say it seems there another list which will cover this incident? Because when I look at the last page, the listing ends in the middle of the page which suggests that if there were to be anything to be added on, at least that last page would have been filled. PROF DE KOKER CHAIRPERSON I think we can simply ask Mr Tsholanku or Mr Mpshe whether they are aware of any other list that goes beyond that period and indeed which also lists the incident in question. Are you aware of it or are you not aware? MR TSHOLANKU CHAIRPERSON MR TSHOLANKU CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, are you aware if there is? MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Well, you must have heard their response. PROF DE KOKER Thank you Mr Chairman, but in the light of the response - and it seem to me that this particular document is not of particular relevance to this incident. CHAIRPERSON Which document? PROF DE KOKER The particular document referred to as the: "Green Book". CHAIRPERSON I think we must distinguish between points for argument which you can argue at the end after the evidence, and leading evidence and not interrupt the flow of evidence with arguments and start being engaged in arguments about that. PROF DE KOKER Mr Chairman, I agree on that score but ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON What was the purpose for referring to the: "Green Book", what was the purpose as you understand it? PROF DE KOKER CHAIRPERSON Are you saying any applicant coming to apply for amnesty in respect of an incident which is not listed there, would not be entitled to rely on the "Green Book" to show that there was some discretion allowed on their part? And any such applicant seeking to rely on the: "Green Book" to show that as regional commanders they were allowed some discretion, is not entitled to rely on that book and in his application this: "Green Book" would be irrelevant? PROF DE KOKER I would certainly like a more clear indication that the same ambit of the command initiative as existed during the height of the struggle, was also existing after the peace process had started in 1991 and at the moment when this particular act was perpetrated in 1993, 11 months before the elections. CHAIRPERSON I think you will argue that because you have a different perception as to when was the height of the struggle and somebody may have a different perception. You may believe that the struggle must have ended at a certain point, somebody might say that the struggle was not yet over so all these are questions for argument you know and I think it affects the relevance of that: "Green Book". PROF DE KOKER Thank you Mr Chairman, I take your indication then I will return to it in argument. CHAIRPERSON CROSS-EXAMINATION BY PROF DE KOKER Thank you Mr Chairman. I would like to continue with the cross-examination of Mr Walter Smiles. Mr Smiles, yesterday ended with a number of questions regarding your HRV application, specifically - or your HRV evidence, specifically your evidence that when it was time to hand over the third petition: "Then there was a sign that I must throw this grenade and he lay down at the same time" You were unsure yesterday and you were given time to reconsider, can you please explain your evidence given last year? MR SMILES Mr de Koker, to explain this now - the signal that we were talking about, I was a bit frightened yesterday but now to explain it today - when we got out of the car, I got this instruction and the instruction was that when the march was returning home, then I would have to throw the hand grenade. Unfortunately I saw the hand grenade striking this man in his face and then I went and lay down because I knew what the hand grenade could do. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER But yesterday you said when the Committee asked you, you felt MR SMILES Just explain to me again. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES People can get a fright, today I feel better able to explain it. PROF DE KOKER Mr Smiles, you said you got out of the car with a white bag with the hand grenade inside it, when did you take the hand grenade out of the bag? MR SMILES During the march. PROF DE KOKER What did you do with the bag? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER So, you handed the bag to someone else and what did you do with the grenade? MR SMILES I walked with the grenade right up to the Bophuthatswana Consulate building. PROF DE KOKER Did you have it in your hand? MR SMILES No, I hand it under my T-shirt, under my skippa. PROF DE KOKER Under the T-shirt? MR SMILES Yes. PROF DE KOKER How did you keep it inside your T-shirt? MR SMILES I used my own initiative to keep it inside the T-shirt. PROF DE KOKER And what was this initiative? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER I just want to know - this heavy grenade, how did you keep it under your T-shirt? What did you do to keep it from falling out? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER A belt? Did you hook it on the belt? MR SMILES No. PROF DE KOKER Can you then perhaps just explain to us? MR SMILES You must please explain to me very clearly. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Where did you wear this belt? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Did you hook it to the belt? MR SMILES No. PROF DE KOKER How did you use the belt to hold the grenade? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER CHAIRPERSON Well, this is not the Skippa he put on, is it? PROF DE KOKER CHAIRPERSON PROF DE KOKER In the middle of the page Mr Smiles, you give the following explanation: "On the 24th of May 1993, the commander Laurens Mbatha, gave me a hand grenade and instructed me to throw it into the Trust Bank building where the Bophuthatswana Representative would stand" Mr Smiles, was this the instruction you got? MR SMILES Just explain this again please. PROF DE KOKER In your statement - in your amnesty application, which is in front of you now "The commander Laurens Mbatha, gave me a hand grenade and instructed me to throw it into the Trust Bank building where the Bophuthatswana Representative would stand" The instruction according to your own application, was that you had to throw this hand grenade there to where the Bophuthatswana Representative would be standing, is that correct? MR SMILES That is correct. PROF DE KOKER And then you continue "I did in fact to what I was instructed to do" You did what you were told to do. "I threw the hand grenade towards the door at the Trust Bank where the Bophuthatswana Representative and Mr Uys were standing and thereafter I ran away" So, you did as you were instructed to do, you threw the hand grenade to the door where the Bophuthatswana Representative and Mr Uys was standing, is that correct? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Who is this Mr Uys that you refer to in the application? MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES I just want to think very clearly about it. ADV DE JAGER You must come with the whole truth now, did somebody tell you what to do or not? MR SMILES Please explain it to me again. ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER But you signed this statement under oath and you said this was the truth? MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER So this statement of yours is not correct? MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON Mr de Koker? PROF DE KOKER CHAIRPERSON "Throw at the building where the man would stand" PROF DE KOKER Quite correct. CHAIRPERSON ...[indistinct] this does not say: "Throw the hand grenade where the representative would stand" but: "Throw the hand grenade at the building where the man would stand" - you describe the building. PROF DE KOKER That would be a correct interpretation of this first sentence but unfortunately, then it goes on to say "I did in fact to what I was instructed to do, I threw the hand grenade towards the door at the Trust Bank building" "I threw it towards the door of the Trust Bank building where the Bophuthatswana Representative and Mr Uys were standing" He therefore identifies the particular building and then said he threw it towards the door of this particular building where the Bophuthatswana Representative and Mr Uys were standing. CHAIRPERSON ADV DE JAGER MS KHAMPEPE CHAIRPERSON PROF DE KOKER As far as I know, the Trust Bank building has only one entrance. CHAIRPERSON Or you could say: "Throw the hand grenade where the Bophuthatswana person will be standing", which would be the Trust Bank building. CHAIRPERSON PROF DE KOKER There are ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Look, are you reading this sentence to say that: "Your instructions was to throw the hand grenade at the Bophuthatswana Representative", is that how you read it? PROF DE KOKER Yes, yes I do and I believe that is a valid interpretation of that sentence because the particular building is identified twice - to throw it into the Trust Bank building. CHAIRPERSON You are not even prepared to concede that there is some ambiguity? PROF DE KOKER Unfortunately not, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON PROF DE KOKER Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Smiles, what then was your particular instruction which you complied with? MR SMILES The instruction I got was nobody had to get hurt, the purpose was that it had to go inside the Trust Bank building, that was what the instruction was but I had to wait for the march to return to go home - that was the signal to throw the hand grenade. PROF DE KOKER At that stage, there was a least one person that we know of inside the building and that was the security guard, how did you follow your instruction that the security guard should not be hurt? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Why would you not have worried what happened? MR SMILES My instruction was that when the hand grenade was in, it was in. PROF DE KOKER And what about the people inside the building? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER But the security guard was inside the building when you threw the hand grenade. Lucky for the security guard he was coming out and the hand grenade hit him, is that correct? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES I had to see that the marchers were returning, then I had to throw the grenade. PROF DE KOKER Was the instruction that none of the marchers would get hurt or was your instruction that no-one, no-one at all whether they were marchers or not, would get hurt? PROF DE KOKER Who was not supposed to get hurt, no-one or not one of the marchers? MR SMILES Not one of our people, not one of the marchers had to get hurt. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES Just explain to me again please. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES I just want to think about this very clearly. MS KHAMPEPE PROF DE KOKER In the light of that indication, I will then leave this line of questioning and we can continue to a next aspect. MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES It was this side, as the Trust Bank stands, it was this side. PROF DE KOKER ADV DE JAGER He did indicate that he stood at a tree left of the entrance. MR SMILES That is correct. ADV DE JAGER For the record, that is how I understood it. PROF DE KOKER Maybe Mr Smiles, you can indicate on this table where did you stand in terms of the entrance - just to help us clarify it physically? MR SMILES MS KHAMPEPE PROF DE KOKER Thank you very much for that indication Commission Khampepe, on page 24 of the first bundle, there is a sketch plan of the building. If you look very carefully at this sketch, can you perhaps - that is page 24 of the first bundle, if you look at this, could you on this sketch indicate more or less where you were standing? MR SMILES It was not too far away from the sidewalk, it was a tree in a pot - a plant holder. PROF DE KOKER When I look at this tree, this is the inside of the building. If inside the building underneath that D ...[intervention] MR TSHOLANKU MS KHAMPEPE PROF DE KOKER That might be my misunderstanding or my bad eyesight then, Commission Khampepe. MS KHAMPEPE I think you simply saw something which looked like a tree in the square where D is, and settled. PROF DE KOKER MR TSHOLANKU PROF DE KOKER MR TSHOLANKU Thank you, Professor de Koker. CHAIRPERSON MR TSHOLANKU CHAIRPERSON Which page are you referring to? MR TSHOLANKU Page 24. CHAIRPERSON Where was he standing? MR TSHOLANKU The point where he has made a cross, he says approximately in that area. CHAIRPERSON Were you standing on the pavement? MR SMILES Yes, Mr Chairman. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES No, Mr de Koker, it did not. Georges - we are actually speaking of Jones Street where OK is? PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES It is the big street. PROF DE KOKER Please can you indicate on the sketch, did this march come from? MR SMILES No, from this side. PROF DE KOKER From the direction of the micro tower? ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER As far as I can understand then the march came past Craven Street and went along George Street right up to the entrance, is that right? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER And did the march then turn around and return in the same way? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Yesterday you said you threw the hand grenade so that nobody could see you? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER But when you threw the hand grenade, the memorandums had already been handed over and the people were turning back and going away. MR SMILES There was one memorandum - so when they were all going home, then was the time for me to throw the hand grenade. PROF DE KOKER Were the people already turning away? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER But when you threw the hand grenade, were there still people? MR SMILES The people were there but not a lot. CHAIRPERSON PROF DE KOKER As it pleases you, Mr Chairman. Mr Smiles, when you say that there were still people, are you referring to the people in the procession, the marchers? PROF DE KOKER So, some of the marchers were still standing there but some of them had already left. MR SMILES They were just turning around to leave and then the security man came out. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR TSHOLANKU CHAIRPERSON MR TSHOLANKU In that way Mr Chairman, I accept it. CHAIRPERSON PROF DE KOKER That is quite correct, Mr Chairman, thank you very much for the clarification. How was it possible for you to say yesterday, that you threw this hand grenade in such a way that no-one could see you? Yesterday you said, nobody saw you because everybody was looking at the memos and now you said people were wondering around buying food, going home. Where you said you were standing and the direction in which the marchers were returning were the same direction, people were walking in your direction. How could execute this bowling action without anyone seeing you? MR SMILES Just explain it to me again please, just please explain it to me clearly. PROF DE KOKER Yesterday you said you threw the hand grenade in such a way that no-one would see you. MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Now you say, some people were looking at the memos, other people were wondering around buying food and some people already returning in your direction. MR SMILES A hand grenade is not something you can throw like a stone, you have to lift your hand in order to throw it. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Smiles, could you have launched that hand grenade into the building without being seen by people who were immediately around you? MR SMILES Yes. MS KHAMPEPE How is that, when you have to lift up your hand in order to throw it? MR SMILES I did lift my hand. It was my duty not to be seen, that was all I could do. MS KHAMPEPE You think you were not seen? MR SMILES Yes. PROF DE KOKER Mr Smiles, of all the people standing there can you bring anyone who saw you throwing this hand grenade? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Mr Chairman, the importance of this information is that it is highly likely that there were persons who saw ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Mr de Koker, but that is part of your argument. I can understand if you say it is possible that people might have seen him, since people were trying to turn around, people were coming on, people were moving back - taking all that into consideration, it is possible but that is an argument that you will have to put before us. PROF DE KOKER Two people are presently in jail, one of them accepted responsibility for throwing the hand grenade. There were 200 people roughly, involved at this incident, somewhere there must be witnesses who are prepared at this stage to come to the fore and to tell us the truth. And ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON PROF DE KOKER MS KHAMPEPE PROF DE KOKER If I may restrict myself then to one piece of information which made us uncomfortable about the ambit of the research. The applications would have gone ahead in March after only two of the victims - those mentioned in the applications, were informed of the proceedings and at that stage it was postponed because we then made evidence available to the Committee showing that there are many more people who were involved - up to forty at that stage, and that appeared at that stage to have come as a surprise. CHAIRPERSON PROF DE KOKER Mr Chairman, I take your indication as it pleases you. It was not my intention to disrupt the procedure, I will continue with my cross-examination if it pleases you. CHAIRPERSON I honestly believe that we have been extremely indulgent and I think you should really now get to the business of leading the evidence. PROF DE KOKER As it pleases you Mr Chairman. Mr Smiles, after the explosion, did you return to the ANC head office and what did you do there? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER What did you tell him? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER And what did he say to you? MR SMILES We went back to the place with a bakkie. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Did it come as a surprise that it was not a success? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER And what was reaction thereon? MR SMILES His reaction? PROF DE KOKER Yes. MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES No. He was at the scene but he went back to head office. PROF DE KOKER When did he go back to head office? MR SMILES He went back when the marchers returned. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES Just explain it again please. PROF DE KOKER Did you see him leaving the scene? MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON PROF DE KOKER But it came as a surprise to Major Mbatha that the explosion had not been successful? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Was this after the explosion when the people were lying on the ground, when he left? CHAIRPERSON PROF DE KOKER When did you see Major Mbatha last during the procession? MR SMILES When Major Mbatha was part of the march. PROF DE KOKER When was the last time you saw him in this procession? MR SMILES At the ANC office. PROF DE KOKER But during the march itself, was he there when the petitions were handed over? MR SMILES He was there. PROF DE KOKER Did you see him there? MR SMILES Yes. PROF DE KOKER Was he still there when they were finished with all the petitions? CHAIRPERSON MR SMILES Mr de Koker? PROF DE KOKER You saw him when the petitions were being handed over? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER You saw him there? MR SMILES Yes. PROF DE KOKER Why did you see him? Where was he standing? MR SMILES He was right in front. PROF DE KOKER Standing in the front? MR SMILES Yes. PROF DE KOKER You would have been looking ahead because that is where you were going to throw the hand grenade, is that right? MR SMILES Please explain carefully. PROF DE KOKER You were looking ahead at the building, is that right? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Major Mbatha was standing in front, so you were looking at him - in his direction? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER What happened after you helped Major Mbatha to take the people away? MR SMILES What then happened, there was one person who had died and then we took the truck and we picked up the other injured people. PROF DE KOKER And what happened then? MR SMILES We took them to hospital. PROF DE KOKER And then? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Why did he tell you to accept responsibility? MR SMILES Because other people had been charged with this. PROF DE KOKER Did he give you an instruction to accept responsibility? MR SMILES My conscience bothered me and I decided then to accept because people had - innocent people had been killed and hurt. PROF DE KOKER Did you go to Major Mbatha and say that you wanted to do it or did he come to you? MR SMILES No, we agreed that I would stand in for this. PROF DE KOKER What about Major Mbatha, he was also responsible together with you. MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER But he gave you the instruction? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Was it your decision to protect him? MR SMILES Yes, it was my decision to protect him. PROF DE KOKER And what was his reaction? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER You were protecting him and you were going to go to jail alone? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES No. PROF DE KOKER How long did you think you would go to jail for this? How long did you think you were going to be locked up if you went and said you did it? MR SMILES That would depend on the court. PROF DE KOKER But did you prepare yourself for how long? MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER PROF DE KOKER Thank you Mr Chairman, what I wanted to determine was that ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES I said he was okay. PROF DE KOKER Okay, you said he was cool, he was all right. PROF DE KOKER Which instructions did he actually give you? MR SMILES The instructions he gave me was to through the grenade into the Trust Bank building ...[intervention] PROF DE KOKER Sorry, Mr Smiles, it was my mistake I confused you. What I was going to ask you was what instructions did he give you in terms of your statement at the police? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER No instructions? MR SMILES No, he was in the office on the other side but I felt I must say what was in that statement. PROF DE KOKER How did it come that you ended up with Mr Isaacs, did you go yourself? MR SMILES Mr de Koker? PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES Mr Mbatha took me, we met with Denzil Potgieter the Advocate and then I explained the incident to them. PROF DE KOKER What did you explain to them? MR SMILES That is what is stated in the statement of September. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES Please explain it again. PROF DE KOKER You said yesterday you made a statement in 1993 with one mistake. MR SMILES That is correct. PROF DE KOKER The mistake was that Mr Mbatha was not mentioned anywhere. MR SMILES That is correct. PROF DE KOKER Now, is the statement correct - the remainder of the statement correct? MR SMILES INTERPRETER The witness said that the man was in Johannesburg while he was not in Johannesburg. PROF DE KOKER I want to refer the Commission to page 2 of paragraph 9 of the statement, the second sentence. Mr Smiles, in this statement you say ...[intervention] MR TSHOLANKU Exhibit A, Mr Chairman. PROF DE KOKER Exhibit A therefore, page 2, paragraph 9, second sentence "While the memo was still being read I took the hand grenade out of the bag so that no-one could see it" Is that correct Mr Smiles? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER But this morning you told us that you had the hand grenade out of the bag while you were still underway, you were in the march on your way to the building, you were walking. MR SMILES Please explain to me again. PROF DE KOKER "I took the hand grenade quietly out of the bag while the petition was being read" MR SMILES Mr de Koker, it is something which happened in 1993, any person can forget something, so at this stage I may have forgotten as we sit here. PROF DE KOKER Which is then correct, when did you take out the hand grenade. MR SMILES While we were walking on the way there. PROF DE KOKER Now you remembered that you were underway but in 1993, three or four months after the incident you said you took out the hand grenade there. MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER You also said you handed over the bag to someone else? MR SMILES That is correct, that was underway. PROF DE KOKER In 1993 you said you still had the bag with you because that was the deduction "I took the hand grenade quietly out of the bag" MR SMILES This is something that happened four years ago, I may have just forgotten. ADV DE JAGER Mr Smiles, four years ago you would have remembered better than you remember today? MR SMILES I remember that I took out the hand grenade while we were under way. ADV DE JAGER What I want to put to you is, this is something that happened a long time ago and you can forget about it but something which happened a month ago you would tend to remember. You would remember better after one month than after four years. MR SMILES I was given time to think about this whole thing, this thing I just forgot. PROF DE KOKER If we can return to the skippa T-shirt that you were wearing, can you describe it to us? MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON MR SMILES Thank you Mr Chairman, as it pleases you. MS KHAMPEPE Professor de Koker, are you not trying to ascertain how baggy the skippa was? PROF DE KOKER This skippa T-shirt, did it have long sleeves or short sleeves? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Was it a T-shirt or a jersey - pullover? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Yesterday and today you told us you were wearing a T-shirt, a skippa T-shirt, is that correct? Do you still think you were wearing a skippa T-shirt? MR SMILES Yes. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES Please explain to me again Professor de Koker. ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER What is the Afrikaans word for a jersey? MR SMILES MS KHAMPEPE ADV DE JAGER ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER ADV DE JAGER Do you know the word: "trui", the Afrikaans word for jersey? MR SMILES No, I do not know that word. ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES No. PROF DE KOKER The word "trui" was used. MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Who was the person that wrote it in that very good Afrikaans? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER I think you are trying to get the witness to describe the T-shirt in such a way that you can possibly be able to argue and say: "It is not possible for him to have put the hand grenade in that T-shirt" in the way in which the T-shirt has been described. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES I was taken to the police station with this statement. PROF DE KOKER Who took you to the police station? MR SMILES The commander and Rodney Isaacs. PROF DE KOKER What happened when you got there? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Mr Smiles, you know that someone is sitting in jail? MR SMILES That is right. PROF DE KOKER That man says he did it, he threw the hand grenade. MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Why would he say something like this? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Were you ever asked by Advocate Potgieter or Mr Isaacs to testify in the case of those people? MR SMILES Yes, this was before they were sentenced and I was happy to take that case. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES I would like you to ...[intervention] PROF DE KOKER I asked, were you ever asked by Advocate Denzil Potgieter or Mr Isaacs to testify in that case? MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON MR SMILES Yes, I was asked. PROF DE KOKER And did you testify in that case? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER There might be a misunderstanding here. You were asked to make that statement which you did, did they ask you to go and stand in the witness box in court? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER So no-one ever asked you to go and stand in the box during the court case - not the police, not the Attorney General, not the Advocate? MR SMILES I asked to stand in for this matter but not to go and stand in the witness box. ADV DE JAGER Nobody asked you to be a witness in that case? MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER Yes, but the advocates and the lawyers, they did not ask you? MR SMILES No, Mr de Jager. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES We left, we walked away. PROF DE KOKER What did you do then? MR SMILES I went home, what else could I do? PROF DE KOKER Did you know these people were being charged in court? MR SMILES Yes, I knew. PROF DE KOKER Did you go to listen? MR SMILES I went to listen. I was in the court, I wanted to see who these people were that were being accused. PROF DE KOKER You went and listened at the court? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER What did Major Mbatha do at that stage? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER The people were found guilty and sent to jail, what did you do then? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER The next statement of yours that we have, which is the one dated June, the statement you made when Sipho and Doctor Alex Boraine came to talk to you. MS KHAMPEPE PROF DE KOKER That is on page 11 of the second bundle of documents. That statement was incorrect, is that correct? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER What were you scared of? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER What were you scared of, what did you think could happen to you? CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION WALTER SMILES (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes, Professor de Koker? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY PROF DE KOKER (cont) Mr Smiles, you said you felt threatened by the TRC representatives and the circumstances, what were you afraid of? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER What do mean when you say you wanted to know what you would get in years, what did you mean by this? MR SMILES Just explain to me again. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER And you were scared of going to jail? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER But you said you felt threatened, you were scared of going to jail. MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES Please explain to me again. CHAIRPERSON MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON MR SMILES Please just explain to me again. CHAIRPERSON MR SMILES No, please explain clearly to me and then I can explain to him what I want to say. CHAIRPERSON MR SMILES Afrikaans is fine but ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Professor de Koker, try to explain that question to him again. PROF DE KOKER Mr Smiles, what were you scared of, what made you feel threatened? Which bad things could happen to you if you told the truth to Doctor Boraine and Sipho? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER But you did not tell them the truth, why not? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER What were you scared of? What were you scared of, what could happen to you if you told them the whole truth? MR SMILES I also asked myself what would happen if I told the truth. PROF DE KOKER And how did you answer that? What were you scared of? What did you think could happen to you if you told the truth? MR SMILES MS KHAMPEPE May I interpose Professor de Koker? Mr Smiles did you know anything about the TRC? MR SMILES Nothing, it was my first encounter with the TRC. MS KHAMPEPE Now, did Sipho and Boraine explain to you what the TRC was and why you had to make a statement to them that day? MR SMILES No, I cannot remember such a thing. MS KHAMPEPE What did they say to you, what was it that they first said? Did they simply say: "Give us a statement about the incident in question"? MR SMILES MS KHAMPEPE What was it that was said to you that made you to lie in particular? MR SMILES MS KHAMPEPE Thank you. ADV DE JAGER Why then explain to them that Major Laurens approached you in terms of a volunteer that would throw a hand grenade and furthermore you also stated that Laurens told you that it was necessary to identify a perpetrator or a volunteer for the incident and he never told you why? MR SMILES Mr de Jager, there was no other choice, this is why I had to lie. I had to get out of there and this is why I made such a statement and it was not true, Laurens did not explain it like that. ADV DE JAGER By why then mention Laurens, why bring him into trouble? MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER But you mentioned something - did Laurens say anything about money that you will get when you make this statement? MR SMILES No, I was frightened, I keep to that. Why should I make such a statement? ADV DE JAGER But now you are frightened and you land somebody else in trouble, you say he bribed you to make a false statement. MR SMILES No, no he never did that, I was frightened. ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES This? ADV DE JAGER Yes, you landed Laurens in trouble because you were scared of these people. MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER But if you want to tell the truth, why lie? MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER Yes, but because of your lies you could have landed him in trouble. MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER You said he offered you money to do this. MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES Once again, because I was frightened. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Smiles, were you responding to questions which were being put to you by Sipho and Boraine? MR SMILES Can you explain that question to me please. MS KHAMPEPE MR SMILES MS KHAMPEPE "Laurens said it was necessary to have a perpetrator volunteer to this incident" Had you been asked specifically by Sipho and Boraine whether Laurens had requested you to volunteer for this incident or not or did that information come of your own volition? MR SMILES I told them myself. MS KHAMPEPE Thank you. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES Yes. PROF DE KOKER Why did you think that they should go to him first? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER You thought he was the person who was really responsible? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES I asked them. PROF DE KOKER And you mentioned his name to them? MR SMILES I asked them. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Whether you knew or not whether the TRC in existence or not, the fact is - as you told us just now, you were scared that day to go to jail. Why did you suddenly become scared of going to jail? MR SMILES On this statement? PROF DE KOKER Yes. MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON Mr Smiles, no, that is not the impression that we got, our impression was that you said quite clearly that you were scared that you would go to jail that same day. MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON Those words came from you, was that the truth? MR SMILES On this statement? CHAIRPERSON Is it true that on that day you were scared that you would go to jail that same day? MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON Professor de Koker, I thought he said that he was afraid that he would go to jail that same day? PROF DE KOKER That is how I understood it too, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Were you prepared to go to jail that day? MR SMILES On this statement which they asked me ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON On the day you made this statement, were you then - were you still prepared to go to jail? MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON Professor de Koker, continue. MS KHAMPEPE Were you threatened by the investigators that you would be taken to jail that day? MR SMILES MS KHAMPEPE What did you say exactly to them? MR SMILES Before the statement? MS KHAMPEPE Yes. MR SMILES MS KHAMPEPE Did they explain to you that they were from the TRC? MR SMILES MS KHAMPEPE When you a statement, did you think you were making the statement to the police? MR SMILES No, they should have produced a card - a visiting card, or something that they are from the Investigative Unit of the TRC, then I would have explained it better and then I could have gone into detail and if they were decent with me in their questionings, I would never have made this statement. MS KHAMPEPE MR SMILES MS KHAMPEPE Why did you not refuse to make a statement at all? MR SMILES MS KHAMPEPE Thank you Mr de Koker. ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES I also asked them myself, how did they know that I was involved. ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES In 1993? ADV DE JAGER Yes. MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER When did you get this book? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES I wanted to understand what the TRC was all about. PROF DE KOKER So, when did you get the book? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Was it after you spoke to Doctor Boraine? MR SMILES Yes, after I spoke to him. PROF DE KOKER Yes, after you spoke to him then, then you got the book? MR SMILES Yes. PROF DE KOKER Did you get the book before you came here and gave evidence? MR SMILES The book explained to me what the TRC was all about, they wanted the truth and that was all. PROF DE KOKER Did you have that book before you came to testify here in public? MR SMILES I had it from last year, this book. PROF DE KOKER ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES Yes, I understand. ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES Yes, it was in the same hall. PROF DE KOKER Thank you Commissioner. Did you have the book then - did you know then before you came here, what the TRC was all about? MR SMILES Yes, I did. PROF DE KOKER You knew then? Then I ask the Committee to turn to page 51 or volume 2, this is a statement made by Mr Smiles dated 14 August 1996 and apparently part of a document starting on page 49, which is a report of the Investigative Unit and these two documents belong together. This statement was drawn up after the evidence had been given, so this document was compiled ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER PROF DE KOKER I understand it to have taken place in June. MS KHAMPEPE The hearing was on the 11th of June, three days after he had made the first statement. PROF DE KOKER Thank you very much. And this statement was made on the 14th of August, so basically one month later. MR SMILES ...[tape blank] PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Did they visit you in August? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER "The first statement I made to the TRC investigators dated 8 June 1996, is false, I made that statement on advice from some friends" He did not want to give their names. MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER And what did you say? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES Let me just think about this for a minute. CHAIRPERSON I think the questions should really be: "Did you tell the person who took this statement from you that you had made that statement on the advice of some friends"? MR SMILES What happened, I was scared but when they came they produced their cards. CHAIRPERSON Look at page 51 at the bottom, it reads "The first statement I made to the TRC investigators dated 8th June 1996, is false" Is that what you told the person who took this statement? MR SMILES Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now, we read further "I made that statement on advice from some friends" MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON Why did you then lie and say that you made that statement on the advice of friends? MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON But why lie if you are frightened? MR SMILES I thought they were going to take action the exact moment because of a false statement. CHAIRPERSON Who was the person that took this statement from you? MR SMILES Doctor Boraine and Sipho. CHAIRPERSON MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON Okay, I see. Now, explain to me again, why did you lie, why did you tell them that you were advised by friends to make a false statement? MR SMILES I was frightened because they asked me who advised me, who instructed me - I was frightened. CHAIRPERSON So now, every time you get a fright you lie? MR SMILES No, Sir. You know, a person gets a fright, you have - that is human nature. CHAIRPERSON MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER Have you been frightened at this hearing as well? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER The statement you made to Doctor Boraine the first time was wrong, what made you decide to tell the truth? MR SMILES My conscience worried me about the person who died in the explosion. PROF DE KOKER Only because your conscience bothered you, you decided on your own last year to come here and tell the truth? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Nobody told you, you had to come and do it, you decided on your own to tell the truth? MR SMILES They told me I had to come to the TRC hearing. PROF DE KOKER Who were these people, who are you referring to? MR SMILES Doctor Boraine and Sipho, that same evening. PROF DE KOKER Did you talk to anyone else before you decided to come and tell the truth? MR SMILES I felt my conscience was worrying me. PROF DE KOKER Did you talk to no-on else about it, you decided on your own? Did you talk to any of your friends? MR SMILES About this situation - no? PROF DE KOKER "Why I admitted to the TRC during the hearings that I launched the grenade, was on advice of Laurens who the day before said that I had to tell the truth. I have confidence in Major Mbatha and I have never been threatened by him, he is now a Major in the Northern Cape Command" MR SMILES It was in the morning that I said that I made a false statement, that was the time I told him, not during the week - nobody came to tell me that I should tell the truth, he was the only person that I spoke to. PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Which morning is this when you say it was in the morning? MR SMILES The statement of 8th of June I made in the evening and on the morning of the 9th I went to him - I thought you were talking about during the day. PROF DE KOKER "There was a COSAS march, I knew nothing about this march and it started in an arena. I knew nothing" ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Can you just refer us to the exact spot? PROF DE KOKER It is right on the top of page 41, my apologies. MR TSHOLANKU Mr Chairman, my recollection of his testimony was that he was sitting at the tickey stop and that point in time he nothing about the march of the particular day, I could be wrong but that is my recollection of what he said - that on the day of the march he was sitting at the tickey stop and knew nothing about the march on that particular day. PROF DE KOKER Chairman, I can refer to our notes but to the best of my recollection I asked the applicant specifically when did he first learn about this march and he said: "The previous afternoon". You can perhaps locate that if - his answer was MR TSHOLANKU That is my understanding "Die middag voor die tyd" That is what he said and which would mean: "The afternoon before the time of the march" That is how I understood it, not the day before the march. ADV DE JAGER On the afternoon of the day before the march? PROF DE KOKER MS KHAMPEPE I think mine reads ADV DE JAGER I think you all agree on this. The advocate for the applicant says that it was the afternoon, the afternoon before the march happened. MS KHAMPEPE MR TSHOLANKU "Die middag voor die tyd" Which would mean: "The afternoon before the time of the actual march" Not the afternoon before the day. ADV DE JAGER MR TSHOLANKU That is exactly the question that should have been asked from the applicant. The impression that I got was that it was on that particular day, it was not clarified. ADV DE JAGER MR TSHOLANKU "Die middag voor die tyd" Would mean: "The afternoon before the time of the march itself" Not to mean: "The afternoon before the day of the march" ADV DE JAGER "The afternoon before the march" Would be the day before the march, not three days before the march because the march started that morning of the 25th. MR TSHOLANKU "Die middag voor die tyd" ADV DE JAGER My notes say "When did you hear about the march the first time"? My note says: "The day before - the afternoon before" That is what my notes say. CHAIRPERSON MR TSHOLANKU I also agree, we should ask the applicant. CHAIRPERSON When did you hear about this march for the first time? MR SMILES The same day. CHAIRPERSON What time? MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON Yes, Professor de Koker? PROF DE KOKER Then Mr Smiles, in the same statement on the same page about 40% down When did you get the instructions to throw this hand grenade? MR SMILES I got the instructions as we got out of the car. PROF DE KOKER Yesterday you said you got the instruction inside the car. Did you get the instruction inside the car or when you were getting out? MR SMILES Then you confused me. PROF DE KOKER What are you saying now today, when did you get your instructions? MR SMILES I thought about it very carefully. PROF DE KOKER And what do you say now? MR SMILES I got the instructions when I was outside the car. ADV DE JAGER Now, how must I understand your evidence, now you come with another explanation and the impression I get is that you realised yesterday that you said the driver also heard, now you want to get out of that problem. MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER Why did you tell me yesterday that the driver could also hear it because the instructions were given inside the car? MR SMILES ADV DE JAGER Sorry for interrupting you, you may proceed. PROF DE KOKER Thank you Mr Commissioner. Thank you Mr Chairman. On the same page, page 40 just of over half way. "But you see I have no experience of this type of thing and when we went up it was all right and when we got there the petitions were handed over" Further on: "Then there was sign that I must throw this grenade and he lay down at the same time, so when I threw it I was weak. I had had no experience of this type of thing" Did you have no experience of this sort of thing? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER How had you been trained? MR SMILES Always by taking a stone and throwing it like this. PROF DE KOKER So, you only knew how to throw a stone, not to throw a hand grenade? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER MR SMILES The second time I used a hand grenade was at the military base in Vergenoeg. PROF DE KOKER After this event - this was the first time? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Were there any other people with you in MK in Kimberley? ADV DE JAGER MR SMILES This was the first time and the second time was at Vergenoeg. ADV DE JAGER But the second time at Vergenoeg, were you then already in the defence force? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER Were there any people with you in MK who had been trained or had experience in throwing hand grenades - who were working with you? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER "I should indicate that the man I instructed was not just doing it for the first time but was involved in previous exercises which were a successful propaganda purposes" MR SMILES That is correct Mr de Koker, the reference here is to Vergenoeg to the military base where I was involved. PROF DE KOKER But those operations occurred after the Trust Bank incident, is that correct? MR SMILES It is correct. PROF DE KOKER In other words, at the Trust Bank incident you have had no experience, you only exercised with a stone? MR SMILES That is correct. PROF DE KOKER So, the statement you made on page 40, last June, is then in this instance correct. Truth and Reconciliation Commission in June 1996, you made no mention that the attack had any political purpose, why not? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER What do you mean when you say: "He came up with this"? MR SMILES PROF DE KOKER And then you took the sign and then threw the hand grenade. Why do it, what was the purpose of the hand grenade - of throwing the hand grenade? MR SMILES The purpose was, when the march will be returned that will be the sign for me to throw the hand grenade. PROF DE KOKER But why, why throw it? MR SMILES It was an instruction I took. PROF DE KOKER What was the purpose, what should have been achieved? MR SMILES The objective was for the hand grenade to enter the bank - the building and the purpose was furthermore for me to ensure nobody got hurt. PROF DE KOKER Chairman, thank you very much for your indulgence, I have completed my examination. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY PROF DE KOKER CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Smiles, when did you join the ANC? MR SMILES I joined the ANC in 1991. MR MPSHE From 1991 up till 1993 - the time of the incident, did you hold any position in the ANC? MR SMILES No, I was just a marshall. MR MPSHE When did you join the MK, when did you become a cadre? MR SMILES I joined 1992. MR MPSHE Just a year before the incident? MR SMILES That is correct. MR MPSHE Now, besides you having been told by your commander about the political climate in Bophuthatswana, did you have your own personal knowledge about the circumstances? MR SMILES Yes, Mr Mpshe. MR MPSHE What was you knowledge about the position in Bophuthatswana? MR SMILES MR MPSHE In launching this or in throwing the hand grenade, did you believe that that operation was going to bring about a change in that region? MR SMILES Yes, Mr Mpshe. MR MPSHE Now, what type of change did you envisage? MR SMILES A new Government. MR MPSHE Now, in your own judgement, did you deem it necessary to throw the hand grenade in order to bring about the new Government or the change? MR SMILES Yes, Mr Mpshe, because they oppressed our people of Bophuthatswana, Hartswater, the whole of the Northern Cape as well as the University of the Witwatersrand. They were torturing our people, they took out raids and this why I thought I had no option - as a member of MK, I had to act. MR MPSHE MR SMILES Hartswater is where their people are. MR MPSHE What about Hartswater? Are you saying people of Bophuthatswana were staying in Hartswater? MR SMILES No, Bophuthatswana people lived all over the Northern Cape, I mention Hartswater as part of the Northern Cape - Bophuthatswana people stayed there as well. MR MPSHE It has been made clear that there has been conflicting statements by yourself, are you now in a position to tell this Committee honestly that you have made a full disclosure? MR SMILES MR MPSHE I want you to have a look at your application, page 13 - I withdraw Mr Chairman, it has already been asked - I canvassed it right at the beginning, no further questions, thanks. That is all Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, if this is perhaps necessary for me to mention, it seems to us that Lieutenant Golf, Inspector Erasmus, Sergeant Kabanda, Superintendent Roussouw and Captain Stark have not even been mentioned by this witness. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Did you want to re-examine? MR TSHOLANKU No re-examination, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Any further evidence? MR TSHOLANKU Mr Chairman, yesterday I pointed out that we will be leading further evidence pertaining to the attitude of the ANC and MK as far as the Peace Secretariat was concerned, unfortunately the witness that we intended to call - we have not located him, we have tried on a number of occasions to get in touch with him. CHAIRPERSON Are you closing your case in respect of both applicants? MR TSHOLANKU CHAIRPERSON Mr Smiles, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR TSHOLANKU ADV DE JAGER But do you have any indication that he threw the hand grenade? MR TSHOLANKU No, there is no indication but there is a covering letter that comes from his commander explaining that it was the first time that he did what he did but ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR TSHOLANKU Yes, I concede to that. ADV DE JAGER ...[inaudible] MR TSHOLANKU CHAIRPERSON Mr Smiles, you are still under oath. Mr Smiles, is it possible that the hand grenade that you threw at the military base was before this incident? Could you be making a mistake this morning when you told us that the hand grenade at the military base was thrown after this incident? MR SMILES That is so Mr Mpshe. CHAIRPERSON MR SMILES Yes, I completely understand you. CHAIRPERSON What is your ...[indistinct] MR SMILES CHAIRPERSON Was it before or after the Trust Bank incident? MR SMILES Trust Bank was first. CHAIRPERSON The reason why I asked you this question was because yesterday I got the impression that you said the hand grenade at the military base was before and now you are saying that it was after - all right, thank you. MS KHAMPEPE Do you recall Mr Smiles, that when I asked you yesterday whether it was the first time for you to throw the hand grenade, you were almost positive that the military base in Vergenoeg incident was the first one and the Trust Bank incident was the second incident in which you were involved in launching a hand grenade. MR SMILES I apologise because I misunderstood. I have to explain, military base was second, Trust Bank first - this is how I can remember today. CHAIRPERSON Very well now, you are excused Sir, you can step down. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Professor de Koker, do you have any witnesses to call? PROF DE KOKER On the other hand, we have also affidavits which were prepared some months ago when the hearing was still going to proceed in August in which my client simply furnishes information which seems at this stage to be common cause. That might therefore be another way of putting the information in front of you and perhaps saving time in that way, if you will perhaps permit me to quote one or two paragraphs from the affidavit. ADV DE JAGER PROF DE KOKER CHAIRPERSON Any other witness? PROF DE KOKER No other witnesses. CHAIRPERSON Did you want to say something Mr Visser? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, they are not in your bundles but I have them in my possession. CHAIRPERSON Yes, just hold onto them, we are not so sure whether we need to have them in the light of the evidence so far. Professor de Koker, I think that you could do that during lunch time. Maybe we should adjourn now and I see Mr Bode, you are burning to say something yes? MR BODE Thank you Mr Chairperson, on behalf of the other victims, I just wish to put on record that we are not intending to call any witnesses. Should you or members of your Committee wish to question any of the available victims, they will gladly be willing to do so but just to inform you regarding the further proceedings we are not proceeding with any leading of evidence, than you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON PROF DE KOKER CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr de Koker? PROF DE KOKER Thank you Mr Chairman, with your indulgence I would like to lead very briefly some evidence by my client mainly pertaining to her injuries. To that effect I request you to receive provisionally as an Exhibit, copies of her affidavit. CHAIRPERSON MR TSHOLANKU CHAIRPERSON All right, yes? INTERPRETER The mike is unfortunately off. PROF DE KOKER Thank you very much Chairman. We will ensure that the original is handed back to you after the evidence has been led, ADV DE JAGER Do you want to testify in Afrikaans or English? MRS DE KOKER-NEL JEAN EULETTE DE KOKER-NEL (sworn states) ADV DE JAGER Could we have your full names please? MRS DE KOKER-NEL Jean Eulette de Koker-Nel. ADV DE JAGER This document now being handed to us, is this your signature appearing on it? MRS DE KOKER-NEL Yes, it is. ADV DE JAGER ...[inaudible] there are annexures thereto? MRS DE KOKER-NEL That is correct, the first part is media statements and then finally there is an affidavit made by Doctor Enrico Branca which he signed but that comes from the medical information which deals with my injuries as a result of the attack. ADV DE JAGER MRS DE KOKER-NEL CHAIRPERSON PROF DE KOKER That is correct Chairman, we got hold of that particular affidavit only this morning and we thought to include it in the statement but it was not formal part of the statement. I realise this is an informal procedure and I will abide by your ruling in that respect. CHAIRPERSON Mr Tsholanku, what do you mean that you had no problems with the affidavit, do you mean this whole thing or only with regard to the injuries? MR TSHOLANKU Mr Chairman, my understanding is that - when I read the affidavit, if you look at paragraph 9 and 10 of the affidavit, it refers to the nature of the injuries that were sustained and when I looked at the affidavit by Enrico Branca I also realise that it refers to her injuries. CHAIRPERSON Mr Tsholanku, you are here to represent your own clients and we cannot decide that for you. We are looking at a document here - an affidavit, all I wanted to know from you is - you said you had no problems with this affidavit, now are you referring to the whole affidavit from this lengthy one - you have no problems with that one including this other one, that is all we want to know. MR TSHOLANKU The whole document Mr Chairman, including the Enrico Branca document as it was handed to me as one package and the other ... MR MPSHE ADV DE JAGER Professor, paragraph 14 for instance "Questions to be asked to somebody" PROF DE KOKER Quite correct, Commission de Jager, this affidavit and submission jointly was drawn up in August before the second round of hearings and at that stage we were not sure whether we were going to be allowed an opportunity to put questions, so by way of a submission we wanted to bring certain questions to the attention of the Committee. Those questions from paragraph 14 to paragraph 17 have traversed during the past two and a half days, we regard them therefore as being answered. ADV DE JAGER PROF DE KOKER In particular, paragraphs 1 to 10 including 10, paragraph 11.2 till paragraph 13 including paragraph 13 and then paragraph 18, that is the very last paragraph ...[intervention] MS KHAMPEPE Professor, are you including paragraph 13 which actually requires answers? PROF DE KOKER CHAIRPERSON Mr Bode, did you want to say something? MR BODE No, Mr Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON The paragraphs that have been mentioned by Professor de Koker, paragraphs of your affidavit, those are the paragraphs that you want us to have regard to, is that correct? MRS DE KOKER-NEL That is correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And there is also another affidavit I believe or another document, yes indeed, another affidavit which is an annexure to the main affidavit and you also want us to have regard to that? MRS DE KOKER-NEL Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Are there any specific points that you want to elaborate on or elucidate in your affidavit? MRS DE KOKER-NEL I would particularly - well put some more light on my injuries sustained as a result of the explosion. ADV DE JAGER MRS DE KOKER-NEL Mr Chairperson, that was the aim of me testifying, it to finally request the Committee to refer myself and the other victims of the incident to the Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee to be considered as victims. CHAIRPERSON Any other thing that you wanted to say? MRS DE KOKER-NEL That was all Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Professor de Koker, do you want her to put questions in connection with anything else? PROF DE KOKER CHAIRPERSON We will just have regard to the annexure to her affidavit and I think for our purposes that it would be sufficient. PROF DE KOKER Then I simply would like to ask my client whether there is anything else that she would like to add in respect of her injuries. MRS DE KOKER-NEL Mr Chair, in paragraph 10 of my affidavit I drew up the affidavit focusing on the facts and I did - particularly in the affidavit but did not in detail set out my injuries. That which is there is a general statement, it does not say - well, it does not deal particularly with my injuries, that is actually a very general way of saying I was injured. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. PROF DE KOKER Mr Chairman, I have no further questions to put to my client, I simply request you to receive this affidavit which was handed to you provisionally as an exhibit in evidence. CHAIRPERSON It will be Exhibit B. May I have that original please? Mr Bode, do you have any questions to the witness? MR BODE None Mr Chairman, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Tsholanku? MR TSHOLANKU None Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE None Mr Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mrs Nel. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Does that conclude all the evidence we were supposed to hear in this case? Do you have witnesses Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE No, Mr Chairman, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Well then, that concludes the evidence and when can we expect to receive ...[intervention] MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Well, that concludes our proceedings in respect of the applications of Smiles and Mbatha. What about the other applications Mr Mpshe, are we ready to commence or is the legal representative not here? MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, the legal representatives are not here, we are not in a position to commence with them today but we will be able to commence with them tomorrow - they have not come back to me. ADV DE JAGER What time tomorrow? MR MPSHE I thought perhaps the time 9H30 or 9H00 will be suitable, the time that the Committee may direct. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR MPSHE I will be able to contact him, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS <BR>