amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-07-04 PIETERSBURG 5 FANYANA D. ALSET https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54766&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pburg/alset.htm MR BLACK ... will testify and he has also indicated that he wishes to testify in English. ADV DE JAGER Mr Black, would Pontdrift be the nearest official border post to Alldays? CHAIRMAN Mr Visser, is it possible for you to help us with Mr Mogashoa's request and consult with your clients while they are almost all here, to try and find out if that is not apparent in the documents, I am not so sure it is, to find out which name Mohashoa used. ADV VISSER Which code name he used? CHAIRMAN Yes. ADV VISSER That could be either an MK name or it could be a serial number, but we will try to establish it. My Attorney has something to say Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN I would have thought he was, well he spoke of a code name, but I thought he was actually referring to the false, the names that were contained in false ID documents. MR BLACK That appears from the document. CHAIRMAN Is it apparent from the document? MR BLACK Yes, from the post-mortem, that is already there. Thank you, Mr Alset is present to take the oath. FANYANA DOMINQO ALSET (sworn states) CHAIRMAN Thank you very much, you may take your seat. EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK Mr Alset, you are the uncle of one of the deceased. Could you please tell the Committee the full names of your nephew? CHAIRMAN Before you do that, what are your full names? MR ALSET Fanyana Dominqo Alset. CHAIRMAN Thank you. MR BLACK Thank you Mr Alset. Could you please tell the Committee what is the name of your nephew? MR ALSET Titus Walter Alset. MR BLACK When did your nephew leave South Africa? MR ALSET In 1976. MR BLACK And do you know the reason for his leaving? MR ALSET I was informed that he went to school. MR BLACK And since he left in 1976, when was the next time you saw him? MR ALSET The last time I saw him again was when he was in the morgue, in Louis Trichardt? MR BLACK In Louis Trichardt, yes. And when you went to identify your nephew's body, what were you told as to where he died and the circumstances under which he died? MR ALSET I was told that they shot him at the mountains in Messina. MR BLACK Yes. Now, you have attended these hearings since Monday, the whole week and you've heard the evidence which has been given by the applicants, who are applying for amnesty in respect of the circumstances surrounding the death of your nephew. And in fact I understand that yesterday you went to the site and saw the sites where this shooting took place. Would you like to address the Committee and make any comments to the Committee in respect of the evidence you've heard and in respect of the applications which have been made for amnesty? MR ALSET I would have liked to say a lot in connection with what I heard since Monday, but my learned friend and brother has said it, I will only add on what he has said. I went to the place of slaughter yesterday. What I have seen with my own two eyes, I couldn't believe it. I would say that even a fly if it could have been in that combi, with all those shots or everything, the way the place was arranged, the way it was there, it wouldn't escape from that thing, from the onslaught. It was an obvious thing that it was well planned. I think even two South African police or three could have just killed them, but now with a whole lot of them there, it was an obvious thing. No one could survive that, let alone six or one. MR BLACK Mr Alset, you've heard that the applicants are, that is all the people who testified during the week, are asking for amnesty in respect of that incident. MR ALSET Just to add on what I have said. MR BLACK Yes. MR ALSET What I have noticed is that not one of them had shown any remorse, not one of them. I was watching them, not one of them showed remorse. And another thing, when I was at the place of slaughter, I met some of the people around there who wanted to know what did we want and all that, I discussed with them. And one of them just gave me certain information which really made things worse for me. Because I heard all the statements read to me, I have listened to all the speakers and it seems to me everybody was contradicting themselves. The person that I met there, they told me exactly that the cops, all the corpses which were collected from the scene were collected by SAP Black policemen with a van. But not the statement that we have heard here, so that I just couldn't understand what was happening now. Because we heard a statement that this Mr Ivor or (indistinct) who cleaned the place, the scene of the crime, but what I heard there, it is a different thing altogether. So with me, I can see there is no truth in the whole thing. If they are going to lie on things like this, this is something that happened some years ago, but they still go to the extent of telling us lies now. I don't know how should I treat that. MR BLACK So you feel the truth hasn't been told here during the week? MR ALSET I am dubious about the whole story that I have heard. If we take it as the truth, I don't know, then I think I don't know the truth. But within myself, I am dissatisfied with the whole thing that I've heard. MR BLACK What is your attitude about their application then for amnesty? MR ALSET To be honest with everybody, if I had been given the privilege of not giving them an amnesty, I will do that. MR BLACK Is there anything further you wish to address the Committee on Mr Alset? MR ALSET All what I would like to say is if there was truth in the whole thing, if there was truth, then I could say something different. But it is obvious that there is no truth in all that they have said. MR BLACK Thank you Mr Alset. MR ALSET Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK . CHAIRMAN Sorry, what is it exactly what you saw at the scene? MR ALSET The scenery there, it is a road that goes down, it is ditches that were dug, there are rocks there where people can conceal themselves or hide themselves there well. There is a big tree from which side where they came from, from Botswana where they can hide themselves, where I presume the gentlemen who threw the gas, the hand gas grenade must have hidden himself there. And where the casspir was supposed to be, where they said it was, it is true, it is also concealed. The left hand side, when you are from Botswana, there are bushes all over so that you can hide yourself. What I deduce is that the casspir was not more than 10 metres away from the combi when it stopped. So it made it very easy for them to choose their targets and that is why they even heard when the people in the combi was making that, when they used the African language. They could hear them clearly. When they were asking Matthews, where are you getting to (indistinct), or something of that sort? So they were close, they were very close, so they could pick their targets with great ease. And the others which were hidden on the left hand side when you are from Botswana, they were so placed that even if you open the sliding door of the combi, trying to go out from the combi, confuse might have been when they went out, those who went out, which I doubt, because it seems to me there is only one who had the chance of jumping out, and that is the one they finished up. The others didn't have a chance. All the bodies of the deceased, were riddled with holes of bullets. That you could see that everybody had a chance to shoot. It was not one person or two that shot or three, or the one that finished up his magazine, but from left, right, centre, rear everybody had a chance to shoot. So what chance did they have? This was a premeditated plan. CHAIRMAN Have you finished now Mr Alset? MR ALSET Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN Mr Visser? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV VISSER Mr Alset, I listened to what you said here and that from the evidence you drew the inference that the applicants told this Committee lies. Are you prepared to accept the judgement of the members of this Committee when they reconsider the evidence and they come to a finding, whether it is that they told lies or whether it is that they think these people told the truth. Will you accept their judgement? MR ALSET I stand on one thing, that what I have heard that is all lies. No matter how you put it, but it is all lies. There can be a tint of truth in it, but the lies are overwhelming everything. ADV VISSER Yes. Are you referring to the gentleman that spoke to you when you visited the site? MR ALSET No. ADV VISSER The evidence that you've heard here? MR ALSET Correct. ADV VISSER Well, I want to put it to you that the applicants spoke the truth. MR ALSET I put it to you that it was lies. ADV VISSER Yes, I have no further questions. CHAIRMAN You mean some of the applicants told the truth on certain points? ADV VISSER I am sorry, I am talking about my clients Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN About your clients? ADV VISSER Yes, I should have made it clear, Mr Alset, that I am talking about not Mr Sehlwana, I am talking about the other applicants and I am putting it to you that their evidence was the truth. MR ALSET Just to sum up that, when we discuss something in here, when we get a break, we go outside and discuss it again there. I was watching everybody of them, they walked again and discuss exactly what they were planning. You notice everybody was trying to help the other one, what to say next. So it is an obvious thing, they are listening to what one is saying and when they go out, they are still going to discuss about that, that if it is your turn now, let's put it this way so that it should look as if it is the truth. You can plan the truth, but lies you can't. There is a place where we will notice that you are telling us lies. CHAIRMAN Are you through Mr Visser? ADV VISSER Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV VISSER . CHAIRMAN Sorry Mr Black, did you have any questions to the witness? MR BLACK No Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK . CHAIRMAN Thank you very much Mr Alset. MR ALSET Thank you.