amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-07-03 PIETERSBURG 4 JOHACHIM H. KRUGER https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54777&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pburg/kruger.htm CHAIRMAN: Mr Visser? ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman, the next witness will be Mr J.H. Kruger. His evidence you will find at B, page 59. JOHACHIM HEINRICH KRUGER: (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY ADV VISSER: Mr Kruger, you are an applicant for amnesty before this Committee and you have filled in the prescribed form. Have you got your amnesty application in front of you? MR KRUGER: Yes. ADV VISSER: Have you read through it and do you confirm that the information contained therein, is as far as you knowledge goes, true and correct? MR KRUGER: It is true and correct, I just want to make a small amendment. Also at paragraph 8(b), page 2, point number 6. In 1986 I became an Officer, that should be 1988. ADV VISSER: Apart from that change, you are happy that the rest is all correct? Reference was made to certain documents which you are going to ask to have incorporated into your application. It is a document submitted by the Foundation for Equality before the Law and General Van der Merwe's submission to the Truth Commission and you are requesting on page 60 of B, that the application of Mr Erwee be incorporated into your application in respect of the facts and the incident itself? MR KRUGER: That is correct. ADV VISSER: You have listened to the evidence of the other applicants who testified here. MR KRUGER: Yes, I listened to all the evidence. ADV VISSER: Now, apart from Mr Sehlwana's evidence, do you differ substantially with their evidence in any way? MR KRUGER: No, I don't have any differences with that. I agree with it, yes. ADV VISSER: Could you tell the Committee where were you placed on the day of the 10th of July? MR KRUGER: On the 10th of July I was in the casper. ADV VISSER: You've heard Mr Erwee's evidence inter alia as to how the casper moved into the road and what happened further. Is there anything which you observed or heard which is different to what Mr Erwee testified and or the last witness Mr Swarts' evidence? MR KRUGER: No, I agree with Mr Erwee's evidence entirely. ADV VISSER: Did you also answer the fire which came from the combi that day? MR KRUGER: Yes. ADV VISSER: How many rounds did you fire? MR KRUGER: I didn't change magazines, so there are 20 bullets in a magazine, therefore I think I shot between 10 and 12 rounds. ADV VISSER: Where were you aiming your gun when you shot? MR KRUGER: At the combi? ADV VISSER: Were you the first person to shoot or did somebody else shoot first? MR KRUGER: I was definitely not the first to shoot. To my right were people who started firing and after that I realised that there were problems and I also started firing. ADV VISSER: How did you understand your instructions as to what was to happen with the passengers of the combi? MR KRUGER: It was made clear to me that an arrest should be made and that the people who were in the combi, had to be arrested. ADV VISSER: Were your instructions to do so at all costs? MR KRUGER: Yes. CHAIRMAN: Mr Visser, it intrigues me that you keep on asking to arrest at all cost, is wasn't at all costs? ADV VISSER: It wasn't what? CHAIRMAN: It intrigues me that you keep on asking the witnesses whether they were at all costs to arrest, it was not at all costs? But I understand you of course. ADV VISSER: I don't want to ask a leading question, but if you will allow me, I will do it and we can save time. CHAIRMAN: Yes, you were instructed to do everything possible to arrest them, but not at the expense of your own lives? MR KRUGER: That is correct. ADV VISSER: Thank you Chairperson. According to you, did you carry out your instructions as a policeman and your specific instructions on that day? MR KRUGER: Yes. ADV VISSER: Do you think you did anything wrong? MR KRUGER: No, I don't think I did anything wrong. ADV VISSER: Why did you apply for amnesty? MR KRUGER: Last year, November, I saw reports in the media and heard reports on the radio and the general import of this was that people should come forward and ask for amnesty. Our National Commissioner also appealed to the members to apply for amnesty if they had any doubt as to whether they should or not. I spoke to people and they told me it wasn't necessary to apply for amnesty. I was in doubt and I also spoke to Mr Erwee and it then became clear that there was apparently an investigation into the incident and that made me apply for amnesty. ADV VISSER: Is that where your doubt arose? MR KRUGER: Yes. ADV VISSER: Mr Swarts testified that he secured the scene there. Did you have any role to play in that? MR KRUGER: Yes. Just to explain very briefly as an explosives expert it is policy that usually only one person goes forward to the scene where there could possibly be explosives or where explosives had to be disposed of. I stood close to Mr Swarts and I helped him. For instance as he took explosives out of the bus, he passed it onto me and I then just took it further away and guarded it, so that nobody could get close to it. ADV VISSER: Were you present when he took it into the bush to sort it out? MR KRUGER: I helped him carry it into the bush, but it was then all left in his hands. ADV VISSER: That is all for this witness, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV VISSER. CHAIRMAN: Mr Rossouw? MR ROSSOUW: No questions for this witness, Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW. CHAIRMAN: Mr Black? MR BLACK: No questions, sir. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK. CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Kruger. MR KRUGER: Thank you. ADV VISSER 1 JH KRUGER PIETERSBURG HEARING AMNESTY/NORTHERN PROVINCE ADV VISSER 5 JH KRUGER