amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-07-03 PIETERSBURG 4 LOURENS M. PRETORIUS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54780&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pburg/pretoriu.htm ADV VISSER The next applicant will be Mr Pretorius. His application form you will find in B, at page 67, Mr Chairman. LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY ADV VISSER Mr Pretorius, you are an applicant for amnesty before this Committee and you are requesting amnesty for any offence or crime which you might have committed or which may be found to have been committed by you during the incident which took place on the 10th of July, 1986 on the Breslau/Alldays road? MR PRETORIUS Correct, yes. ADV VISSER You've completed an application form which you have in front of you? MR PRETORIUS Yes. ADV VISSER You checked it and do you have any changes that you have to make? MR PRETORIUS Just at paragraph 8(b) on page 2, where it says March 1996, Station Commissioner in Makwoin. ADV VISSER What should it be? MR PRETORIUS It should be Makwoin. The "n" should change into a "w". ADV VISSER Is that the only amendment? MR PRETORIUS That is all. ADV VISSER So for the rest you confirm your statement as true and correct? MR PRETORIUS Yes. ADV VISSER You also referred to a submission made by the Foundation for Equality before the Law and also a submission made by Jan Velde Van der Merwe, to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and you request those documents to be incorporated into your own application for amnesty in so far as it is relevant? MR PRETORIUS Yes. ADV VISSER You also referred to the amnesty application of Mr Erwee in respect of the incident of that day? MR PRETORIUS Correct. ADV VISSER Do you confirm that the political motive set out in your application is also applicable to you and that that is what you in fact believed at the day of the incident? MR PRETORIUS That is correct. ADV VISSER On the day of the incident, where were you, where were you placed? MR PRETORIUS I was in the casspir. ADV VISSER You heard the previous three witnesses' evidence who were also in the casspir, Mr Erwee, Mr Swarts and Mr Fuchs. Do you have any reason to differ from what they said, except that I didn't see Captain Born. ADV VISSER You didn't see him? MR PRETORIUS No, I didn't see Captain Born. ADV VISSER Apart from that, did you hear the shot from the kombi's side? MR PRETORIUS Yes, I did. ADV VISSER Did you hear the swear word coming from the kombi? MR PRETORIUS Yes. ADV VISSER You heard the short volley of automatic gun fire? MR PRETORIUS Yes. ADV VISSER Did you hear somebody shouting they are shooting at us? MR PRETORIUS Yes. ADV VISSER Did you also fire any shots on that day? MR PRETORIUS Yes, I emptied one magazine and 20 shots. ADV VISSER So you used up a full magazine of 20 rounds? MR PRETORIUS Yes. ADV VISSER What was your gun aimed at? MR PRETORIUS At the kombi. ADV VISSER So you could have shot or hit some of the people inside the kombi? MR PRETORIUS That is correct. ADV VISSER Mr Pretorius, according to your view and understanding, what was the task that you had to go and carry out as far as the passengers of the kombi was concerned? MR PRETORIUS We had to arrest them, but not at the expense of our own lives. ADV VISSER Not at the expense of our own lives. This is better, this is a clever witness which I have. Do you think that you did anything wrong? MR PRETORIUS No. ADV VISSER In terms of the specific instruction or your general instructions as a policeman? MR PRETORIUS No. ADV VISSER Maybe the question could arise, why did you shoot at that stage? MR PRETORIUS I concluded that we were being shot at and our people started shooting back and I joined in the shooting. ADV VISSER Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV VISSER . CHAIRMAN Mr Rossouw? MR ROSSOUW I have no questions Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW . CHAIRMAN Mr Black? MR BLACK I have not questions, Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK . ADV DE JAGER Mr Pretorius, you wanted to arrest these people. They were shooting at you. If I have it correctly, Mr Erwee shot 30 shots, Mr Kruger about 15, Mr Swarts about 15, you, 20 and with the pistol 9 or so shots. Why couldn't it have happened that you for instance shot 10 shots and then said to the people, hands up and surrender? MR PRETORIUS According to my training, as soon as you open fire, you deliver maximum fire. I am not prepared to go back and find out whether these people are still able to return fire, I wouldn't endanger my life like that. CHAIRMAN You can shout from the casspir? MR PRETORIUS I supposed we could have shouted from the casspir. ADV DE JAGER Would you say that was minimum force? MR PRETORIUS I am satisfied that we acted in accordance with my training and correctly. Perhaps we could have shot even more, but we didn't. MS KHAMPEPE I think Mr Pretorius maybe in fairness to you is to restate that you had your ground Commander in the casspir and you shot in his presence and he didn't say anything to stop you? He only gave the instructions to cease your firing after some time. MR PRETORIUS That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRMAN Mr Visser? ADV VISSER I have no further questions to the witness, thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV VISSER . CHAIRMAN Thank you Mr Pretorius.