amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS PIETERSBURG https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54781&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pburg/sehlwa2.htm CHAIRMAN We are continuing with the same matter as yesterday. Mr Visser were we at the end where you had just finished asking questions, or did something occur to you overnight? ADV VISSER Mr Chairman I'm a little bit deaf, I didn't hear you. Can I just put on my microphone? I'm sorry Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN I was saying that I think yesterday you were at a point where you had just finished asking questions. M M SEHLWANA (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY ADV VISSER (cont) Mr Chairman that is indeed correct but may I beg your indulgence there. There are three further issues which will take a very short time, with your leave, which I would just like to put to the witness and I will be finished. Mr Sehlwana while you were travelling in the combi with the six people that you had picked up, were you talking to each other? Were you having discussions, or were you all quiet? MR SEHLWANA I was quiet. ADV VISSER And what about them? MR SEHLWANA No they were not talking, they started to speak when they were giving each other apples, that everyone should take up an apple. ADV VISSER When you were giving the apples out, as you put it, did anyone say anything about what would happen if the car was stopped by the police, what they would do? MR SEHLWANA They didn't say anything in that regard Sir. ADV VISSER Well you see the evidence will be that you later told Koos van den Berg that while you were travelling they had told you that if they met any resistance that they were going to fight. Is that not true? MR SEHLWANA I don't know that Sir. ADV VISSER Just tell the Committee Mr Sehlwana, during this whole procedure were you afraid that something might happen to you, were you fearful of your safety with these people in the car? MR SEHLWANA If I was afraid I couldn't have taken them to the car. I only know that I should take them to that point and I think that is all. ADV VISSER So your short answer is you weren't scared at all? MR SEHLWANA I was not scared Sir. ADV VISSER I was informed today that you were in fact present when the right rear window of that combi was removed from the car. Is that correct? MR SEHLWANA That's not true. ADV VISSER I'm also informed that it was explained very carefully to you why it was done, namely, so that a teargas grenade could be thrown into the car to give you the maximum opportunity to escape. Is that correct? MR SEHLWANA I don't remember that. ADV VISSER Is it correct, and this is the last point Mr Chairman, is it correct that you visited Mr Koos van den Berg last Sunday at his home? MR SEHLWANA Yes I went to his house to enquire about the direction to Capricorn High School. ADV VISSER Did you mention something about you having to go Cape Town? MR SEHLWANA I don't know that Sir. ADV VISSER Well Mr Sehlwana, it's quite a simple question, with respect, did you mention to him that you're going to go to Cape Town? MR SEHLWANA I didn't tell him that. I didn't know anything about Cape Town because I didn't know what I was going to do in Cape Town. ADV VISSER He says you told him that you were informed by Captain Molapo ...(intervention) MR SEHLWANA I said to him, Captain Molapo had phoned me that I should come to the Commission, he phoned me on Wednesday, that's what I told him that that person was coming from Cape Town. ADV VISSER He says that you told him that Captain Molapo told you that after these hearings you are to go to Cape Town where you are to meet Mr Joe Modise and the Deputy President Thabo Mbeki, you told him that. MR SEHLWANA I don't know that. ADV VISSER Do you say that you deny that you told him that? MR SEHLWANA I deny, I don't know that. ADV VISSER Mr Chairman I am told by my attorney that I put one question incorrectly. I'm sorry Mr Sehlwana, I retract that. I put to you that you were present when the window was taken out. You were not present, you were quite correct in saying that, but what I have to put to you is that the purpose of the window that was taken out was explained to you in detail. MR SEHLWANA Is that question directed to me? ADV VISSER The question is directed to you yes. I'm correcting myself. You were not present when the window was taken out, you already said so. MR SEHLWANA Yes I said so, I was not present when the window was removed. ADV VISSER I put it to you that the evidence will be that it was carefully explained to you why the window had been removed. CHAIRMAN You have already denied that. MR SEHLWANA Yes I denied that I was, nobody explained to me about the window. ADV VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN Mr Sehlwana, you told us yesterday that one of the people had his AK47 on his lap as you drove into the country. MR SEHLWANA I did explain that the one who was sitting at my back was the one who was putting his AK47 on his lap. CHAIRMAN Where were the rest of the AK47's that were in the possession of the other people? MR SEHLWANA Maybe they put them in their bags. I was in front they were coming behind me when we left Botswana, when we went to the combi. CHAIRMAN And where were their bags? MR SEHLWANA They put them on their shoulders. CHAIRMAN The AK47's in their bags, were they dismantled? MR SEHLWANA I don't know as to whether they were disconnected. CHAIRMAN Besides the AK47's, did they have any other firearms that you saw? MR SEHLWANA I only saw those AK47's when they were lying on the ground and the time when they were taking out the apples. CHAIRMAN Before you jumped out of the combi, did you notice any tear gas canister being thrown into it? MR SEHLWANA No I didn't see that. CHAIRMAN Are you aware that an inquest was held in respect of these deaths? MR SEHLWANA I understand that when a person dies the inquest is done, therefore it is true that the inquest was done. CHAIRMAN Were you asked to make a statement for the purpose of an inquest? MR SEHLWANA No they didn't request me to make a statement. CHAIRMAN What prompted you to make these disclosures, the disclosures about this incident. May be, just a minute. Well I suppose you have told us what you told us because you wanted to make an application for amnesty? MR SEHLWANA Yes that's true. I was making an application for amnesty. CHAIRMAN Is there any other reason why you decided to make all these revelations? MR SEHLWANA No there is no other reason. The reason was that I was supposed to disclose because I saw many incidents were disclosed. CHAIRMAN Mr Visser. ADV VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman, Mr Sehlwana I've only got one question, one aspect that I want you to clear up concerning the exercise that you had. I'm not sure when this exercise took place. Can you tell us, when was this incident exercised, rehearsed rather?. MR SEHLWANA We did that demonstration or exercise the day before I went to pick (up) those people. ADV VISSER You're quite sure because I think it was put to you that it was the morning prior to you picking the six ANC cadres up, were you quite certain that it was the day before? MR SEHLWANA It is the day before I went to pick up those people, because the following day I left early in the morning at half past four. ADV VISSER Mr Chairman just one aspect which, before I waste any more time perhaps these questions, the chairman yesterday put some questions as to the direction that the applicant ran towards the river. I just want to enquire whether the Committee is quite certain as to how he ran an and whether we should clear that further up? CHAIRMAN Well we can't say we are certain as to how he ran, we can say that we do understand what he's telling us. ADV VISSER Well I think then it might be better if ...(intervention). CHAIRMAN But if you want to make sure that we understand it correctly, it's up to you to make sure of that. It maybe that we understand whereas we don't. ADV VISSER Mr Sehlwana can you tell us. Where did you bring the vehicle that you were driving, to a stand-still? MR SEHLWANA I brought the car to a stand-still on the cement block and then on the other side it was sand but I stopped the car at the cement block. ADV VISSER So am I correct in assuming in concluding from that you stopped at, can I put it, in the middle of this river, the dry river. MR SEHLWANA That's true. ADV VISSER From there can you just tell us how you ran when you opened the door? MR SEHLWANA I explained that when I opened the door, immediately thereafter, I ran alongside the combi in the direction behind the combi. Then I heard somebody say don't do there, take another direction. Then I ran along the river. ADV VISSER To your right? MR SEHLWANA Yes I was still on my right-hand side along that river. ADV VISSER Sorry Mr Sehlwana, maybe that was confusing. From the right-hand side did you proceed away from the right-hand side of the combi? MR SEHLWANA I explained that immediately after opening the door, I ran alongside the combi to the direction of behind the combi, then I heard somebody saying, don't take that direction, change your direction. Therefore, thereafter then I ran on my right-hand side along the river. CHAIRMAN Sorry isn't this river running from east to west? Do you know the cardinal points? MR SEHLWANA It is from this direction to that direction, I stopped in the middle of the river...(intervention) CHAIRMAN Wait a minute, when you say from this direction to that direction, you pointed east and then west, which is what I was asking you. I was asking you isn't it so that this river was running from east to west? If I'm wrong you should tell me. Do you know where east is? Are you familiar with cardinal points? MR SEHLWANA It's from the north direction to the south direction. CHAIRMAN And then you are going from where? From east to west or from west to east? MR SEHLWANA I was from the west direction, from Botswana direction. CHAIRMAN From west? MR SEHLWANA That's true. CHAIRMAN Right you were from West to East and then you stopped in the middle of the bridge. Now did you run to the south or to the north? And if this question is confusing you, you must tell me. MR SEHLWANA I understand the question correctly now. I ran westerly where I came where I came from, from there I turned north according to the direction, the instruction. I was running to the west direction, therefore I discovered later that I should go, take the southerly direction. CHAIRMAN Just repeat that please Mr Interpreter. Can that be repeated please. INTERPRETER I was asking him to repeat so that I could say it correctly. MR SEHLWANA I was coming from the west direction and when I went outside the combi, I pushed the door, then I ran again to the west direction, then I learned according to the voice I heard that I should turn to a southerly direction where the river was, along the direction of the river to the south. CHAIRMAN I think I'm going to give you a piece of paper I think to solve this and you must indicate on this piece of paper the direction of the river, where you were coming from and where you ran. MR SEHLWANA I'll be glad. CHAIRMAN Sorry let me have that paper back for a minute. I'm going to indicate cardinal points in the way that I think you best understand them. ADV VISSER May I interrupt Mr Chairman. I just remembered that one of my clients gave me a map. It may be of some assistance to you. Can I hand it in? CHAIRMAN Yes please. ADV VISSER We've only got the one copy, we weren't going to make use of it but it may be of some importance. Let me just see, there may be notes on that thing. We can hand that in Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN Well Mr Visser, I'm not going to give him this because it depicts the opposite cardinal points to what the witness is saying, I think it will confuse him. Let him give us his own version. If you look at that piece of paper, I have drawn up cardinal points in a way that is more or less in line with your version, in the way which I understood you. You said you were moving from west to east. MR SEHLWANA That's true. It is written the way, I could even write it the same way you have written it on paper. CHAIRMAN You see that the river as you said is running from north. Do you see in there, to the south, do you see that? And then in the middle of the river the combi stopped on a bridge. Do you see a combi there? MR SEHLWANA Yes I see the combi. CHAIRMAN Do you understand that set-up? Now ...(intervention) MR SEHLWANA I understand it well Sir. CHAIRMAN Now just draw a line, a dotted line, you get out of the combi, you go in a wrong direction and somebody says to you you are going in a wrong direction, you turned and then you ran to what you say was the right direction. Just dot that line of yours up to the point where you stopped. A dotted line. So you moved towards the south in the end, along the river? MR SEHLWANA Yes once I was still on that cement block. CHAIRMAN Ja well after you got out of the combi. MR SEHLWANA That's true. CHAIRMAN We will mark this Exhibit C, thank you. MR ROSSOUW I may place on record Mr Chairman, that apart from the precise points of the compass that is what our evidence will be, it coincides exactly with what the evidence of the other applicants will be. CHAIRMAN Well Mr Rousseau I think the point has now been cleared. Exhibit C will then be the map as drawn by the witness, Mr Sehlwana. MR ROSSOUW As the Committee pleases. ADV VISSER Mr Sehlwana just one last question. You said that you heard somebody when you brought the combi to a stand-still asking where you were going and that voice came from inside the combi. Is that correct? MR SEHLWANA The one who said to me, where are you going, that voice came from the Combi. Then there was a second voice again saying, those who were outside, somebody said, don't take that direction. He was seeing me getting out of the combi. There was a certain voice again which was in Afrikaans which said don't take that direction, take the other direction. Then I did as I was instructed. ADV VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman I have got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV VISSER CHAIRMAN I'm going to give you Exhibit C again and ask you to indicate by was of an X as to where the injured person was when he was interviewed. Just mark X. Well the witness has indicated that the injured person was lying on the left-hand side of the combi as it was proceeding to the east, in other words on the northern side. He has marked it with several X's and as far as I understood his evidence this was exactly in line with what he told us. Mr Sehlwana ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER Is this a bushy area? MR SEHLWANA Yes it's a bushy area. The river was surrounded by many trees. ADV DE JAGER You initially proceeded to the back of the combi in a western direction, back to Botswana. MR SEHLWANA That's true. ADV DE JAGER You were running in the road then. And then you turned off the road to the river bed? MR SEHLWANA That's true, that's in the middle of the river. And in turning to the middle of the river were you protected by the bush then? MR SEHLWANA No I was not inside the bush area yet. CHAIRMAN I just want to asking you something about this, relating to the question as to when the rehearsal was made. What time of the day was the rehearsal made, rehearsing as to how you should escape from the combi and so on? MR SEHLWANA If I'm not mistaken it was in the afternoon around 4 o'clock or 3 o'clock. I'm not quite sure about the exact time. CHAIRMAN But are you sure that it was in the afternoon. You may not be sure about the hour but are you sure that it was in the afternoon? MR SEHLWANA Yes it was in the afternoon from 2 o'clock. Maybe from 2 o'clock up to four o'clock, up to there in the middle those times. ADV DE JAGER How far is this from the Botswana border? MR SEHLWANA Approximately 15 km. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Sehlwana, when did you get to Alldays, was it on the morning of the 9th or was it on the morning of the 8th? MR SEHLWANA May you please remind me because I don't remember the date. MS KHAMPEPE This incident happened on the 10th of July. Now the rehearsal took place on the 9th of July. MR SEHLWANA Yes the demonstration was done on the 9th. MS KHAMPEPE When had you in fact arrived at Alldays. You put up at a farm, was that on the evening of the 8th or the 9th after the rehearsal? MR SEHLWANA I slept on the night of the 9th at that farm then on the 10th I went to fetch those people. MS KHAMPEPE So you actually came from Pietersburg to Alldays on the 9th. MR SEHLWANA That's true. MS KHAMPEPE And immediately after you had got to Alldays you went to the place where the rehearsals took place. MS KHAMPEPE What is the sequence of events? MR SEHLWANA We left Pietersburg for Alldays. I don't remember exactly what time we arrived there, then I went together with the two people in the evening for the demonstration. MS KHAMPEPE I thought you said it was during the day. You're not confusing yourself? MR SEHLWANA The interpreter has made a mistake by saying in the evening, I said it was during the afternoon. MS KHAMPEPE Now you sprang from the combi on the day of the incident, on the 10th. You actually ran away from the combi to the westerly direction and somebody shouted inside the combi and said, where are you going? How long after the shouting were you warned by a security policeman that you were by the security policeman that you were actually going in the wrong direction? MR SEHLWANA I'm talking about seconds. MS KHAMPEPE That time did you smell any tear gas. MR SEHLWANA I smelt tear gas immediately when I alighted from the combi. MS KHAMPEPE Was that before you were alerted by one the security policemen that you were going in the wrong direction? MR SEHLWANA Sorry I didn't understand your question correctly. MS KHAMPEPE When you started to smell the tear gas, did you smell the tear gas before you were warned by the security police that you were going in the wrong direction or was it after that warning? MR SEHLWANA I think it's before I heard that voice, if I'm not mistaken I think it is before. MS KHAMPEPE Now the other thing which I just wanted to clear with you, for how long did the security police interrogate the injured cadre whilst you were there? Was it a question of a few seconds? A few minutes? MR SEHLWANA If I'm not mistaken I think it might be about 10 minutes. MS KHAMPEPE Ten minutes might be quite a substantial time. Is your approximation correct? MR SEHLWANA I'm not quite sure about the duration. MS KHAMPEPE What has been said by the person who was questioning the injured cadre, did you hear what it was? What was the interrogation all about? MR SEHLWANA The time I arrived I began to hear when they said to him, where are you from and where are you going? I don't know as to whether he was asked questions before I arrived on the scene. MS KHAMPEPE So you are saying whilst you were there the interrogation lasted for approximately 10 minutes? MR SEHLWANA I'm not quite sure about the duration, it might be plus or minus five minutes. CHAIRMAN Thank you Ms -. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV VISSER Mr Chairman may I just put two questions? Mr Sehlwana there's not, there are two issues rather? Did the shooting which took place on that day from the outside towards the combi, did that shooting start before or after you heard this warning in Afrikaans that you were running in the wrong direction? MR SEHLWANA If I remember well, the time when they were talking about me taking the wrong direction, the shooting had not yet started. If I'm not mistaken. ADV DE JAGER Sorry I didn't hear the translation. MR SEHLWANA If I'm not mistaken the shooting started after, but I'm not sure. ADV DE JAGER Could the interpreter kindly repeat the translation? MS KHAMPEPE If I'm not mistaken the shooting started after the voice which warned me I'm taking the wrong direction. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. MR BLACK During the course of the interrogation of the wounded MK soldier, was Mr Erwee present? MR SEHLWANA I don't remember well. MR BLACK Now I notice from your application that you left the police in February of 1990, is that correct? MR SEHLWANA That's true. MR BLACK Now have you any grudges against any of these people who you say were present at the rehearsal and who conducted this operation? MR SEHLWANA I don't have a grudge against them. MR BLACK Is there any reason for you to tell any untruths about Mr Fuchs or what took place at the shooting of this injured soldier? MR SEHLWANA May you please repeat your question. MR BLACK Is there any reason or did you have any reason whatsoever for you to tell any untruths about the activities of Mr Fuchs and the shooting of this injured soldier. Have you any reason not to tell the truth or to tell lies about Mr Fuchs? MR SEHLWANA I'm here to tell the truth. MR BLACK I have no further questions Sir. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK CHAIRMAN Thank you Mr Black, Mr Visser. ADV VISSER Mr Chairman perhaps on the last issue there is perhaps something that the Committee should be aware of. May I just put one point to the witness. After you left the police in February 1990, did you ever thereafter apply to become a policeman again? MR SEHLWANA Yes that's true. ADV VISSER And you were turned down. MR SEHLWANA Yes that's true. ADV VISSER Why? MR SEHLWANA They didn't tell me the reason why. They just say they regret not to employ me again. ADV VISSER You weren't the subject of police investigations? MR SEHLWANA The investigations were completed by that time. ADV VISSER What was the investigation about? CHAIRMAN Why should he tell us that? ADV VISSER Well Mr Chairman the point now was made that he bears no grudge and well, I will leave it Mr Chairman, in fact...(intervention) CHAIRMAN No I was wanting, I mean I don't understand why we should open a catalogue of possible criminal activities on the part of an applicant in respect of which he hasn't made an application for amnesty but if there is an explanation for that we should understand it. ADV VISSER Mr Chairman I'm fully in agreement with you. In fact Fuchs, and whether he had grudges against Fuchs and so on is totally irrelevant for what we're here for, we're here for applications for amnesty for certain applicants but the point is I just wanted to put this in context. I'm not going to take it any further because I fully agree with you. It really is irrelevant. CHAIRMAN Yes thank you. I think you are excused. Sorry before that, when did you apply to rejoin the police? MR SEHLWANA I did that application in 1993. I don't remember the month. CHAIRMAN And when did you get the reply? MR SEHLWANA There was no formal reply. I took an initiative to go and enquire about the reply and I was told that I cannot be reemployed. Then they mentioned that I don't have standard 10. CHAIRMAN Why did you leave the police force? MR SEHLWANA To explain it fully, it's a long story. I don't know actually what I should explain? CHAIRMAN We'll ask you more questions if we think it's not enough. MR SEHLWANA The way I was working at times, new people who came to the security force, they would be told about my activity that I should be their role model. Then I understood that this would put me in danger that everyone would know what I did previously. I thought maybe that our activities were secret, then I thought that it is better to look for another job somewhere. CHAIRMAN You didn't want to be another Mamasela? MR SEHLWANA No. CHAIRMAN Thank you. You're excused , you can go. MR SEHLWANA Thank you Sir. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRMAN Mr Rossouw, do you have any further witness to call in support of your client's application for amnesty? MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairman I have no further witnesses. CHAIRMAN That is your case. MR ROSSOUW That is my case. CHAIRMAN Mr Black do you have any witnesses that you want to call in relation to this particular application? MR BlACK Mr Chairman I have no witnesses but I have explained to some of the relatives of any of the deceased who are present that should there be any questions pertinently arising out of this evidence, they could give it to me but with permission of the Committee, the intention was to do that at the end of the presentation of all the evidence on behalf of all the applicants. CHAIRMAN Yes, except that we were told yesterday that the relatives wanted to be here only until tomorrow. I don't know when the last applicant is going to testify. If you are going to wait until the last applicant is going to testify, that could be Thursday and if they will still be here by then, then that's alright, but if there are certain problems that they have and will not be able to be here beyond tomorrow or beyond today then if they want to testify or say anything, we should slot them in. MR BlACK Yes Mr Chairman this morning I didn't have an opportunity to consult with all of them and I'd like to, perhaps, I don't know what time you intend breaking for tea but I could... This morning some of them hadn't arrived, some families had not yet arrived but I'd like to just confirm with them because I've also been given conflicting time periods as to how long they are going to stay. CHAIRMAN Maybe you'll consult with them during tea time.