amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-07-03 PIETERSBURG 4 JOSEPH VENTER https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54788&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pburg/venter.htm ADV VISSER The next applicant Mr Chairman, is Mr Venter whose application you will find in B86. JOSEPH VENTER (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY ADV VISSER ; Mr Venter, you are also an applicant for amnesty and you are requesting amnesty for any delict or crime committed by you which you might have committed during an incident that took place on the 10th of July, 1986 on the Alldays/Breslau road? MR VENTER That is correct. ADV VISSER You completed the prescribed application form and may I ask you whether you recently read it, just to make sure that it contains all the correct information? MR VENTER Mine is correct, yes. ADV VISSER You therefore confirm the contents of the statement? MR VENTER Yes. ADV VISSER In your statement you also refer to a document entitled Submission from the Foundation for Equality before the Law and a submission made by General Van der Merwe, Johan van der Merwe the previous Police Commissioner, to the Truth Commission. Is that correct? MR VENTER Yes. ADV VISSER And lastly also in your application, you also incorporated Mr Erwee's application in so far as it relates to the facts of this particular operation on that date? MR VENTER That is correct. ADV VISSER As far as the political objectives are concerned, do you associate yourself with the political objectives set out on the application form on page 88, paragraphs 10 (a) and (b)? MR VENTER That is correct. ADV VISSER On the day of the incident, Mr Venter, where were you placed? MR VENTER I was more or less 30 metres on the northern side of the combi, in the sandy ditch, that is where I took up my position. ADV VISSER Yes, your description is so accurate that we don't need to show you Exhibit C, it corresponds exactly with what has been marked on Exhibit C. Who was with you? MR VENTER The ditch isn't very wide there, I would say plus minus five to six metres at that point. I was the person on the left, virtually against the ditch's bank. In the middle was Colonel Dreyer and to the right of Colonel Dreyer was Colonel Van Dyk. ADV VISSER Would it be correct to assume that where the combi came to a halt, you could basically see nothing of it? MR VENTER Yes, no I could see nothing. ADV VISSER Did you fire at all on that day? MR VENTER I had a firearm which was issued to me, but I fired no shots. ADV VISSER Afterwards, did you do anything in particular there? MR VENTER Yes. After the shooting I moved up this bank and found Captain Born, he was laying right in front of me and he was wounded and I covered the wound with my shirt. I was accompanied by Colonel Dreyer and at that stage the chopper came in and we carried Captain Born to the helicopter and the helicopter then left. ADV VISSER Now, just before the helicopter leaves, what was the position as far as the teargas was concerned where the helicopter was standing? MR VENTER At that stage it was moving in the direction of the helicopter, but where we were at that stage on the northern side of the combi, there was no gas. ADV VISSER You heard Mr Erwee's evidence that whilst Captain Born was being carried and loaded into the helicopter, the gas which was emanating from your clothes and also from the bottom, it started reaching the helicopter and for that reason it had to take off very quickly. MR VENTER That is correct, yes. ADV VISSER Is that also your recollection of the situation? MR VENTER Yes. ADV VISSER And afterwards a person was discovered in the combi and this person was still alive. MR VENTER I can't testify as to that. ADV VISSER What was your task in the sandy ditch? MR VENTER My instructions given to me by Colonel Erwee was that if in our attempts to arrest these people, if some of them should escape and run in a northerly direction, then they would have come straight in our direction and we would then have to arrest them. ADV VISSER What exactly were your instructions for that particular day? MR VENTER To arrest the people. ADV VISSER Yes. And if they started shooting at you? MR VENTER My instruction was then to fire back. ADV VISSER Were you present when a questioning took place of a wounded person? MR VENTER No, I wasn't present, but I was two to three metres away. ADV VISSER What I forgot to ask the previous witness, did you see whether anybody did anything to this wounded person either to harm him or injure him or anything like that? MR VENTER No, what I saw and what I can testify is that he was injected by a Black medic. ADV VISSER That you saw? MR VENTER That I saw with my own eyes. ADV VISSER But you are not able to say whether he was still alive when he was loaded onto the vehicle to be taken to Alldays? MR VENTER No, I can't testify as to that. ADV VISSER Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV VISSER . CHAIRMAN Mr Rossouw. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW Mr Venter, after you saw the injection being administered, did you still watch what was going on during the questioning or were you not involved, did you not watch it any longer? MR VENTER I can't remember exactly, but I think what happened was this. At that stage I wasn't wearing a shirt. I moved back in the direction of the helicopter where it would have landed. I went and stood there and lit a cigarette. I didn't pay any further heed to what was going on there. MR ROSSOUW Am I right in saying that you didn't see the end of this questioning or interrogation? MR VENTER No. MR ROSSOUW I have no further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW . CHAIRMAN Mr Black? MR BLACK I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK . ADV DE JAGER Did you hear a shot after the questioning? MR VENTER No, there was no shot. MS KHAMPEPE May I understand your evidence in that regard then Mr Venter, you didn't hear a shot whilst you were there because you left, did you leave after the interrogation had become concluded or you left whilst Mr Erwee and Mr Fuchs were still with the injured person? MR VENTER That is true, I moved away whilst they were still busy. But I wasn't very far away. MS KHAMPEPE So you wouldn't know whether there was a shot fired after you had moved away? MR VENTER Chairperson, let me put it this way, if a shot had been fired, I would definitely have heard it. MS KHAMPEPE How far were you from where the injured person was? MR VENTER Approximately from here to where this camera man is standing here in front of me. MS KHAMPEPE And were you there until when he was loaded into the bakkie? MR VENTER No, they came passed me with the man in the direction of the bakkie, where I was standing, having my cigarette. MS KHAMPEPE Thank you. CHAIRMAN What distance shall we say that is? MR VENTER Ten to twelve metres, I would suggest Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN Well, the distance indicated by the witness is estimated to be about ten to twelve metres. Do you want to re-examine? ADV VISSER No re-examination, thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV VISSER . CHAIRMAN Thank you Mr Venter.