amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-09-22 PORT ELIZABETH 1 & 2 GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS 3920/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54790&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pe/1madaka.htm CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA That is correct Mr Chairman. I appear on behalf of the families of Mthimkhulu and the Madaka family - Madaka. There is a problem - I got instructions only over the weekend, this past weekend, for reasons - very good reasons that I could explain. In the circumstances we ourselves would require until after lunch hour, about 2pm, to be able to determine our position so we do need the morning portion. CHAIRPERSON So, I regret that those people who have taken the trouble to be here on time, ready for the proceedings will unfortunately have to wait for some time. As you have just heard, the application has been made that we should not start till after the long adjournment, normally at two but I think we perhaps can try to start at 13H30 today. So, we will now adjourn until 13H30 when the hearing will commence. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON This is a hearing of the Amnesty Committee held in Port Elizabeth on the 22nd of September 1997. The Committee members are myself, that is Andrew Wilson, Chris de Jager and Ntsiki Sandi. Would the counsel who are appearing please place themselves on record. MR VISSER May it please you Mr Chairman ...[intervention] MR BRINK Mr Chairman, my name is Brink, Robin Brink, I appear as evidence leader. MR VISSER MR BOOYENS May it please the Commission Mr Chairman, Kobus Booyens, I appear for Nicholas Janse van Rensburg, Gerrit Erasmus and Gideon Niewoudt - I beg your pardon, Hermanus du Plessis and Gideon Niewoudt. MR PHOSA May it please Mr Chairman and the Commission, I appear on behalf or - sorry my name is Phosa, I appear on behalf of the two families of Mthimkhulu and Madaka, instructed by Nyoka - Attorney Nyoka. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR PHOSA Mr Chairman, if I could start I have an application to make namely, that the ...[inaudible] should be postponed until tomorrow morning. I received instructions - through no fault of mine or the family, only over the weekend. This is not a joking matter, it is a serious matter and not one which you just brush over for the benefit of any person. I have access to certain information which was not available to me until this morning, with regards to certain possible witnesses. I would need to interview, prior to doing any cross-examination. This therefore means there could be two possibilities, one would be to postpone until I have seen these witnesses, which we hope to do tonight when they will first be available or alternatively, if it is so felt the proceedings can go on for as long as I am not called upon to cross-examine anybody - which is our intention to cross-examine so, there are two options available. CHAIRPERSON Mr Phosa, I have no doubt it is no fault of your own but why were you only instructed at such late notice? MR PHOSA So, at the last moment they made these efforts and I cannot really force them, it is part of our system that people think in terms of advocates and attorneys in different positions which is of course far from reality. That is the position. CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA ADV DE JAGER MR PHOSA It is precisely one of the two alternatives I suggested, I did say so. CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA Such as? CHAIRPERSON Council for the other applicants or the leader of the evidence? MR PHOSA No, I definitely have no objection to that. CHAIRPERSON Have you gentlemen got anything you wish to say in this regard? MR VISSER Mr Chairman, we would certainly support the suggestion of Advocate de Jager to use some of the time which remains today, to at least get some of the evidence behind us and we would suggest that we should call Mr Gerrit Erasmus to give his evidence in chief at least. And certainly in fairness to Mr Phosa, we would have no objection to his cross-examination standing over until tomorrow. MR BOOYENS I agree with my colleague Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Very well, I take it from that that you have agreed with your colleague that you will lead the first witness Mr Visser. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON I think that would be a wise idea, so can we all mark that bundle as bundle A, the other bundle will accordingly be bundle B. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON 24(a), yes. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Or 1,2,3 and 4, yes. CHAIRPERSON Because the pages are numbered 1,2,3,4,5. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Is this all you have to say in this regard? MR VISSER That is all we have to say in this regard Mr Chairman, apart from begging your leave to present the evidence of Mr ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Well, before you go on, can we continue with this? Mr Booyens you have arranged to also give us a supplemented application in respect of Mr du Plessis which has been handed in which will also form part of the record as page 17(a) and the same thing. MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA I dealt - I did all that was given and I read what I was given. I had no way of knowing that something else was given. CHAIRPERSON MR BRINK MR PHOSA MR BRINK You can use this one Mr de Jager. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Right, are we now ready to continue? Mr Visser? MR VISSER ADV SANDI Sorry, can I explain something to Mr Phosa? [Advocate Sandi explains to Mr Phosa how microphone and equipment works] MR PHOSA Mr Sandi, thank you very much for the assistance, nobody ever told me that before - I was told something different actually, thank you very much. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Well, I have no problems with it Mr Visser. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. May I then call Mr Erasmus to give evidence before the Committee. He prefers to speak in his own language, Afrikaans Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER Your full names please? MR ERASMUS Gerrit Nicholas Erasmus. GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Erasmus, you are applying for amnesty before this Commission and you have completed the prescribed form for amnesty, is that correct? MR ERASMUS That is correct, yes. MR VISSER Do you confirm the contents of that statement which you made? MR ERASMUS That is correct, yes. MR VISSER Now in your statement you referred - on page 28(d), in paragraph 10(a) you referred to a submission of the Foundation of Equality before the Law and you refer to the evidence or a submission made to this Committee on the 21st of October last year by General Johan Velde van der Merwe, and in paragraph 10 you requested that that evidence be incorporated into your evidence. Is that correct? MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS Yes. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS Correct. MR VISSER Did you after that, have the opportunity to also read the applications of Mr van Rensburg and Mr Niewoudt? Those are the other two applicants in this matter. Did you read the applications? MR ERASMUS Yes, I did. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS Correct. MR VISSER Yes, will you please speak a little bit louder? Mr Erasmus, would you please give a brief background sketch of yourself and your particulars, where you were born, when you were born, etc? MR ERASMUS Mr Chairperson, I was born in Fraserburg in the Cape Province on the 28th of August 1936. MR VISSER And how old are you now? MR ERASMUS I was 61, I am 61. MR VISSER Can you give us a bit of background about your family circumstances, the way in which you grew up? MR ERASMUS My parents were staunch Afrikaners and I have a brother and two sisters, only one sister is still alive. MR VISSER What did your father do? MR ERASMUS My father was a farmer and he was the foreman on a farm. He also did a variety of other jobs in his lifetime. MR VISSER And your mother? MR ERASMUS My mother was a housewife. MR VISSER In the years of your formation as a person and as an adult, what political and religious impressions did you form in your parental home? MR ERASMUS As far back as I can remember, my parents were supporters of the National Party. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS Whilst I was growing up I believed that the policy was correct. That is the way I grew up and right from when I was a small child it was taught to me as being the correct way of life and that was how we lived. We understood that we lived apart from other people, from other races for instance in society. MR VISSER And you believed that that was correct and justifiable? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER MR ERASMUS Yes, I grew up in a religious home, went to Sunday school in the Dutch Reformed Church. I was baptised, confirmed and became a full member of the Dutch Reformed Church and in later years I also served in the church council. MR VISSER Can you tell the Committee, in your experience of the Dutch Reformed Church and you involvement with the church, did you receive any indications that the policy of the then Government was morally indefensible, wrong or a sin? MR ERASMUS No, I never saw that. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS The way I saw it was, that I believed what I heard and saw in the church. I believed even in church circles, that the National Party was correct. MR VISSER From the time that you joined the police force until you retired, did you - in respect of the policy as you understood it and those principles, did you apply those principles? MR ERASMUS Yes, and when I joined the police I promised to be faithful. MR VISSER To be faithful to? MR ERASMUS To the Government. MR VISSER To the Government and to the State? MR ERASMUS Yes. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS Yes. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS That is correct, yes. MR VISSER Now, without elaborating on that anymore, could you please with reference to page 24(1) - perhaps Chairperson, with your permission I can perhaps lead him a little bit just to expedite the process? MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. You in 1957, 3rd of January you became a policeman and you did certain training - completed certain training at the police college in Pretoria and you were then stationed at the headquarters in Pretoria at the offices of the paymaster? MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS That is correct, yes. MR VISSER Now, then in January of 1959, you were transferred to Caledon Square at you own request - that was in Cape Town. And is it further correct that during 1960 you then became aware of certain problems which had already emerged on the socio-political scene? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER Was that in fact the case? MR ERASMUS I think so, yes. MR VISSER Was there a consequence, what happened as a result of this march? MR ERASMUS Well, the result of this march was that after this man whose name I now mentioned, handed a memorandum to the then Divisional Commissioner of police, the crowd of people dispersed and proceeded to rather seriously damage some vehicles and committed certain robberies. MR VISSER Were you part of the body of people whilst they were plundering and causing damage to property? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER According to your insight at the time, did this occurrence or rather, was it repeated at any other time and in any other place in the country? MR ERASMUS Yes, I became aware that that was the case. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS Yes, correct. MR VISSER Now, that was in 1960, is that correct? MR ERASMUS Yes. MR VISSER And on page 24(1), paragraph 7, you set out that there had been a further consequence as a result of these events namely, that the ANC and the PAC had been banned by the NP Government and that -if I may perhaps read it, perhaps you should read it. You have given us a quote there from the annals of Doctor Verwoerd and Mr John Vorster. Could you perhaps tell us where this version in paragraph 7 comes form? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER Could you perhaps read it to the Commission? MR ERASMUS The following "The Prime Minister, Hendrik Verwoerd in this period acted by suppressing by these occurrences and in July of 1961, he appointed John Vorster as the Minister of Justice and Mr John Vorster at a certain meeting told how Verwoerd had told him...[intervention] MR VISSER MR ERASMUS Yes. "Mr Vorster at a certain meeting recalled how Verwoerd had told him ...[intervention] MR VISSER MR ERASMUS "I remember saying to Doctor Verwoerd, he should let me deal with the threat of subversion and the revolution in my own way. I told him that I could not fight communism with the Queensburry rules, if you did then you would loose. He agreed with me and said that he would leave me free to do what I had to do" MR VISSER And that was 1961? MR ERASMUS Yes indeed, that was 1961. MR VISSER And now in 1960, you did the promotional exam in the South African police, you were successful in this and in 1960 you were appointed as a station commander of the police at Mzimkhulu in Griekwaland. Is that correct? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER And you were promoted to Sergeant. MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR VISSER In 1961, you were involved with the detective work in Lesana and also certain matters against pupils in ...[inaudible]. You mentioned that in paragraph 9, but what I want you to mention to the Committee is, what your awareness was regarding the availability of evidence at that stage. MR ERASMUS At the stage during this investigation - and that was also at the security branch where I was stationed on a relief basis, I already then realised that because of intimidation it was extremely difficult to find evidence or witnesses to give evidence in a criminal court. MR VISSER You refer - to put this in the correct perspective, you are referring to evidence in criminal procedures with a political motive. In 1962 you were transferred to Mkobo as station commander and you were then sent to Rosebank as a detective, as an exchange transfer and later to the security branch at The Graze. Is that correct? MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR VISSER In total you were associated with the security branch from 1963 to 1983, is that correct? MR ERASMUS Yes. MR VISSER And you retired in 1989? MR ERASMUS No, I retired in 1992. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS I was first divisional commander of the Witwatersrand region -the commissioner or that region and then I was appointed as the regional commissioner of the Witwatersrand area. MR VISSER During this time, were you involved in certain matters which were of historical political importance in our the country? MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman. I was part of the investigative personnel of the security branch at The Graze. I and other people amongst others, handled the Rivonia case, the bomb which exploded on the station - the so-called Harris bomb which exploded at The Park station as well as a matter which was heard in Pietermaritzburg under the name of APDUSA. MR VISSER Can you tell us what it stands for? MR ERASMUS It stands for African Peoples Democratic Union of South Africa. It should be from South Africa. MR VISSER From 1963/64, was that period from the point of view of security, was that characterised by any specific incidents? MR ERASMUS Yes, numerous acts of sabotage were committed. The targets were railway lines, electrical lines, electrical sub-stations. MR VISSER Just to return to the question of the Harris bomb and this refers to the Arms Resistance Movement, is that correct? MR ERASMUS ARM stands for the African Resistance Movement, Africa. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS I was there Mr Chairman, and I had to be part of the investigation. This bomb exploded at 16H00 in the afternoon, that was the time when people go to the station to depart to their various destinations. It is also one of the busiest times at the station. MR VISSER In this bomb explosion 83 people were injured and one lady of 77 years of age died. We also know that because of detective work and various investigations, Mr Harris was found guilty and executed. Is that correct? MR ERASMUS Yes. MR VISSER Will you tell us - this incident, did it make any impression on you? MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, the impression it made on me was that I was amongst these injured people, I saw their blood and other pieces of waste. I had to look amongst that for evidence for this matter. I can tell you that if you walk around that debris, you have this strange feeling and you feel nauseous. MR VISSER Mr Erasmus, we are going to talk about - we are going to omit paragraph 16, 17, and 18, they are self-explanatory and we want to come to your first experiences in the beginning of 1997 when you were transferred to Pietermaritzburg. And there you replaced Colonel Dreyer as divisional commander. CHAIRPERSON Provided by the Committee? MR VISSER Yes, Mr Chairman, we received it from the TRC Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER No, it was from the TRC. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Should we call this bundle C? MR VISSER As you wish Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON The bundle B will be the other bundle produced by the investigation unit. MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON You may be able to borrow mine. MR VISSER "The formation of COSAS posed a serious threat to the State" CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VISSER If I may repeat This was necessary as stated by the fact that COSAS was already under the constant eye of the security police and was seen as a hawk. PESCO was specifically formed to spearhead the boycott until student" - Must read: "demands" instead of "scants", we assume. CHAIRPERSON "Scant demands" MR VISSER "Scants demands were met" Now that is by way of introduction. Over the page we read as follows: "A new leadership emerged. This strategy did not work because the security police alleged that the old COSAS members were hiding behind PESCO to further their aims. As part of the onslaught by the State, there was a deployment of a senior police officer, one Colonel Gerrit Erasmus" We saw a different means that were used, that were employed by the special branch towards the various organisations that were working in Port Elizabeth. We believe that it is important for you to take note of that evidence. ADV DE JAGER MR VISSER That is the only part I feel that I want to bring under your attention and which I intend to use. ADV DE JAGER MR VISSER ADV DE JAGER MR VISSER ADV SANDI Mr Visser, can we make a request to you that whenever you intend to use documents, you give us a copy so that we can go though and see the context in which whatever portion of the document is being used, that would make things a lot easier. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Mr Chairman, we do have to apologise, we were under the impression that you would have the copies. Clearly we were wrong in being under that impression but we do apologise. MR ERASMUS This evidence is not correct, I was transferred from Pietermaritzburg to Port Elizabeth to replace Colonel Dreyer as divisional commissioner. MR VISSER Were you aware of any strategy of the Government in transferring you to Port Elizabeth in order to suppress people or organisations? MR ERASMUS There was no specific strategy in this regard. It was our job, it was our instruction from the State to monitor organisations which were dangerous to the State and we would say if there were organisations like that, they had to be regarded to be suppressed. MR VISSER Mr Erasmus, something completely different. You came to Port Elizabeth - first I want to finish with this document, what was the first experience you had when you started in the division Eastern Province when you started with your new post? MR ERASMUS Some of the members of my staff took me to this area and one of my staff members started talking while we were getting out of the car, with a Black man. The next moment I heard an explosion right behind me, I looked around and saw that there was half a brick lying right behind me. I did not see the person who had thrown this brick. MR VISSER At that stage, what did people tell you regarding access of the police regarding policing in the Black townships in the Eastern Province? MR ERASMUS They told me that this specific area which was lying next to the White Walmer residential area, could not be policed because policemen were not allowed into that area. MR VISSER At a later stage, did you become aware of the strategy of the ANC to establish the so-called "no-go" areas, to prevent the police or the army to enter these areas? MR ERASMUS Yes, that was brought under my attention. MR VISSER What was your experience regarding Port Elizabeth and the vicinities regarding these "no-go" area? MR ERASMUS These areas were distributed and it was just imported for certain areas, it was not a total "no-go" strategy at that stage. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS As it goes in all strikes, there were people who wanted to strike and other people who wanted to work. The people who did not want to strike were intimidated not to go to work and some of them who tried to go to work, their houses were burnt down. MR VISSER Mr Erasmus, in paragraph 20 you refer to a quote titled: - incorrectly spelt Mr Chairman, you will forgive us - it was published in Seshowa in 1987 and in this it is mentioned amongst others, that there were clashes between the police and students. MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER In your experience as a policeman in Port Elizabeth, that aspect of the revolution, did it have a low or a high profile - these clashes between the students and the police? MR ERASMUS It was a high profile. MR VISSER Can you give us a bit of a background, which organisations were involved? MR ERASMUS The organisation which was mainly involved in this aspect was COSAS. MR VISSER And Mr Moditswa mentioned that PESCO was also involved. Can you please tell us whether his summary of the situation was that the one was only a smoke screen for the other? Was that also your opinion? MR ERASMUS We did not think that, it was only another name, it was the Port Elizabeth Student Council - Congress. MR VISSER And the conflict which was caused because of students and the activities of scholars, did that give rise to any violence and damage to property? Was there any damage done? MR ERASMUS Yes, it was. MR VISSER These student activities - if you could refer to it like that, what was the intensity in 1981/82, can you still remember? MR ERASMUS These student boycotts went on continuously up to the middle of 1982. MR VISSER Were there any bomb attacks during this time? MR ERASMUS Yes, there were many bomb attacks, too many to mention here. MR VISSER In paragraph 23, you mentioned a few of these. MR ERASMUS That is so, during this period there were many bomb attacks for example, at the Constantia shopping mall and the Administration Council building, the new Justice buildings and on the railroad - Swartkops railroad. MR VISSER You also confirm the content of these notes which have become part of your application and that it is true and correct according to your experiences? MR ERASMUS That is so. MR VISSER Just then to come back - the specific command you had here, could you shortly tell the Committee which branch offices were in your area. First refer to the Eastern Province area, till where did that go - the boundaries of that division? MR ERASMUS My area of authority was the headquarters in Port Elizabeth, then there was a branch office in Uitenhage, one in Grahamstown, one in Fort Beaufort and one in Cradock. MR VISSER Can you remember who was in charge of these various branch offices during that time? MR ERASMUS In Cradock, it was Lieutenant Fouche, in Fort Beaufort, it was Hearn, in Grahamstown, Lieutenant Oosthuizen, in Uitenhage, Captain Muller. MR VISSER Regarding the command structure in Port Elizabeth, can you in the first place give us an indication of which components were there and how this command structure functioned according to these? We refer first of all to number one - you were the commanding officer, you were number one, who was second in charge? MR ERASMUS That was Major Snyman, Major Harold Snyman. And then we had various divisions or sub-divisions, administration - the administrative staff under the authority of van Greunen, he was a captain at that time. MR VISSER You can go ahead. MR ERASMUS Then there was a division for Black matters and investigations under the guidance of Captain du Plessis. Then there were White staff under the command of Captain Siebritz. Trade Unions, Coloureds, Asians under the command of Major Nick van Rensburg. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS I will do that Mr Chairman. The last division was technical matters under the command of Captain Greyling. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS MR VISSER In total then in Port Elizabeth, how many staff were employed in the security branch? MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, all inclusive it refers also to the branches and the administrative staff, not more that 140 staff members. MR VISSER Can we just talk for a minute about where you were standing in this whole command structure and what your task was. Firstly, regarding instructions, did you receive instructions from security head office regarding everything you had to do or did you not receive instructions from them or what was the situation in that regard? MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, I was appointed as the commanding officer in Port Elizabeth. Headquarters did from time to time give us various instructions and then I delegated it to the various branches. The daily instructions, I was responsible for myself because it was my duty according to my instructions, to gather intelligence, to monitor everything which was possible and in this way to keep the State informed regarding the latest developments and therefore enable them to form policy. This was shortly what my instructions were. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS MR VISSER Now, the day to day protection of lives and property, the prevention of violence, crime, preventative actions, arrests, prosecutions etc., - that type of thing, did you receive specific instructions for those things or did you have to use your discretion in that regard? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER And you did it? MR ERASMUS Yes. MR VISSER Mr Erasmus, according to the experience that you had at the time in 1981/82 and in the light of your insight views regarding the revolutionary onslaught against the country, how did you rate Port Elizabeth and surroundings as far as violence and unrest were concerned, in the bigger South African picture of the time? MR ERASMUS Chairperson, I regarded it a seriously destabilised flash-point. MR VISSER Briefly tell us how this manifested itself? MR ERASMUS It manifested itself in the many boycotts, the destruction which took place, the intimidation and the mobilisation and the political awareness of the youth. MR VISSER Why did you - in respect to students and scholars, their activities - why did you see that as a major threat? What were the influences at work there as far as the students and scholars were concerned, in your experience? MR ERASMUS As far as the students were concerned the position was as follows: almost every household was represented by a child and that created a broad base for mobilisation, organisation, politicisation etc. MR VISSER Now, with this situation of Port Elizabeth being a flash-point area, were you left by the powers at the time, to deal with the situation? What were your observations? What did the higher powers do? MR ERASMUS Well, my observation and the observation of others was that the pressure from Government side and the department, politicians and other state institutions that were monitoring the situation, this pressure became greater and greater and there were growing expectations and it was impossible to actually meet these expectations. MR VISSER Then of course there were also the public interest which you had to serve. MR ERASMUS Yes. From the side of the public, business and from virtually every quarter, there was the expectation that we would address and control the situation which was emerging. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS My feeling in this regard was that as a result of the severe intimidation, greater mobilisation and the youth becoming more and more politically aware, I felt that we were not actually succeeding in controlling this situation. MR VISSER Mr Erasmus, I would like now to turn to the very particular facts regarding Mr Topsi Madaka and Siphiwe Mthimkhulu. Firstly, I understand that a report was made to you by Mr du Plessis and Mr van Rensburg at a particular time, do I understand that correctly? MR ERASMUS Yes. MR VISSER Could you please tell us what you remember about this? What was your information regarding these two people and what had been discussed, how the whole thing developed at these meetings - please tell us as far as you can remember? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER MR ERASMUS Mthimkhulu, according to the information which I received, played the more open role, in other words working towards the mobilisation of the people and working towards making the youth politically aware etc., distributing pamphlets, that sort of thing - ANC pamphlets, inflammatory pamphlets. He was assisted by Mr Madaka. Both these gentlemen, according to my information, also recruited students and scholars for military training abroad. Mr Madaka possessed a car and he also acted as a courier and there was also some information that he transported weapons between Lesotho and this division or section. MR VISSER Now, what about the creation of safe house for terrorists? MR ERASMUS Yes, his further duty was to look after the ANC cadres who were infiltrating. MR VISSER To do what Mr Erasmus? MR ERASMUS These cadres who were infiltrating came here with one purpose only and that was - or rather with more than one objective, but firstly to commit acts of sabotage, to train people in the handling of weapons inside the borders of the country and ...[intervention] MR VISSER If we may continue, did Mr Madaka have sisters or brothers according to your information? MR ERASMUS As far as I knew he had one brother and at that stage he was somewhere in a foreign country and it was also my information that he was a trained cadre. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Who by? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] page 71. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS I was aware that Mr Madaka or rather Mr Mthimkhulu, had been involved in a shooting at the funeral of Robert Sebukwe and that happened at Graaf Reinet. CHAIRPERSON When did that happen? MR ERASMUS I think if I recall correctly, it was during 1979. MR VISSER Do you have any further information, who shot at whom and what happened? MR ERASMUS The information at my disposal is that Mr Buthalezi and a policeman had been shot at and they were wounded in the incident. MR VISSER Mr Erasmus, you were told all these things, what happened then? How did the conversation develop, what else was discussed especially as regards what you were supposed to do? MR ERASMUS Just before I answer this question Chairperson, please allow me to say the following: I was busy saying that Mthimkhulu had played on the level, the open role and Mr Madaka took a more underground role. Now, to get to the discussion, the question was raised: "What must we do or what are we to do with these two people"? MR VISSER MR ERASMUS MR VISSER MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS MR VISSER Did you personally in any way - did you in any way and personally, have any dealings or involvement with such a poisoning if he had been poisoned? MR ERASMUS No. MR VISSER Do you have any knowledge of any other policeman being involved in the poisoning of Mr Mthimkhulu? MR ERASMUS No, Chairperson. MR VISSER You were busy saying that as a result of the fact that it had been reported that Mr Mthimkhulu had been poisoned, he acquired a certain image amongst the other students. Could you please elaborate on that, on that image that you referred to? MR ERASMUS After this poisoning, or suspected case of poisoning, Mr Mthimkhulu achieved a certain stature, he became - he grew in stature and became a very important person. MR VISSER Now if I can lead you here, did he achieve a certain martyr image? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER Now, in your discussions, did you in respect of the possibility of an arrest of Mr Mthimkhulu and his further detention in terms of the security legislation then existing, did you consider that? MR ERASMUS It was discussed and considered and we came to the conclusion firstly, that head office would not authorise this action of ours or authorise us to take action on this idea namely in respect of this person who was still ill or not entirely healthy, to detain him once again. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS Yes, it was discussed and we came to the conclusion that if we tried to detain him again, that would lead to widespread unrest and riots. MR VISSER What about Mr Madaka, what about the arrest and the detention of Mr Madaka? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER And that source would be the informer? MR ERASMUS Yes. MR VISSER So, the idea was that should you arrest Madaka and possibly prosecute him, it would have become abundantly clear who the informer was? MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR VISSER And according to your insights at the time, what would then have happened in all probability to this informer? MR ERASMUS In all probability there would not have been sufficient evidence to arraign Mr Madaka in a criminal court and this would lead to his later release and that informer would definitely then be killed. MR VISSER Mr Erasmus, was this a discussion which took place on one occasion, this discussion regarding Mr Madaka and Mr Mthimkhulu, or was it something that was discussed on more than one occasion? MR ERASMUS There were several discussions on more than one occasion because I asked questions which needed elucidation and these two - these men then had to go back and look at other alternatives. MR VISSER And what was the ultimate conclusion which the three of you reached? MR ERASMUS Our final conclusion was that there was no other way - detention or any other thing, other than to eliminate these people. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR VISSER Now, how did you feel about that personally - about this decision? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER And Mr Erasmus, I think you said that today you are relieved for the process which was created and established whereby you can reveal all these facts so that the families of the victims can know what happened and that you can at least get it off your conscience to a certain extent, is that not so? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER Mr Erasmus, we know that Mr Mthimkhulu, after he was released from detention, went to see an attorney in order to lodge a civil claim against the police or to be more specific the Minister of Law and Order, based on alleged assaults which he said he had suffered whilst he was in detention. Are you aware of that? MR ERASMUS I am aware of a civil claim, yes. MR VISSER There is documentation before this Committee which includes a statement made by Mr Mthimkhulu which indicates that, or which alleges that he had been tortured and assaulted in various ways. I want to ask you the following: "You Gerrit Erasmus, do you have any personal knowledge of any assault committed on Mr Mthimkhulu during his period of detention, as he alleges? MR ERASMUS I personally have no such knowledge. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS No, not at all, I also did not interrogate him. MR VISSER And you are aware that is you did do so or if you had poisoned him, you would have been able to apply for amnesty for that? MR ERASMUS I would most certainly apply for amnesty, yes. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, may I be allowed a moment? Mr Erasmus, it is the evidence so far - and the probability exists that your former colleagues will confirm this in their testimony, that to a certain extent we can call it a joint decision between the three of you, you du Plessis and van Rensburg about what should happen to Madaka and Mthimkhulu? MR ERASMUS That is correct Sir. MR VISSER But it is also like that Mr Erasmus that you, the commanding officer is telling this Commission that you take the responsibility, that you gave that instruction. MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER You did not receive any instructions from senior level to do that, that was your own decision and you accept full responsibility for that? MR ERASMUS That is correct, I did not receive any direct instructions. MR VISSER You, yourself were not present or was part of the execution of this instruction, is that correct? MR ERASMUS Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Later, they reported back to you that the instruction was completed? MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR VISSER I just want to ask you this, did you give the instruction in the name of Gerrit Erasmus in your personal capacity, or did you give this instruction for another reason, or for which other reason? MR ERASMUS I did not give this instruction for any personal gain, I did not do it for Gerrit Erasmus. As I saw it at that stage, I gave this instruction in the execution of my duties. I firmly believed that that which I had done was correct. MR VISSER And what purpose did you try to achieve with that? MR ERASMUS What I tried to achieve was to break this power basis which was developing around these people. MR VISSER And in the end, was it the present political dispensation - was that to maintain that dispensation? MR ERASMUS That was at all costs the fact. MR VISSER And then do you confirm the contents pages 28 - that is paragraph 10 of your application, in which you describe the circumstances and the objectives of your actions? MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Does anybody wish to say anything in that regard? MR BRINK No thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. WITNESS EXCUSED COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION - 23rd SEPTEMBER 1997 GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON We are proceeding with the application of Erasmus, van Rensburg, du Plessis and Niewoudt. It is today the 23rd of September. MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON We must make every effort in the future to start on time. Are you now ready Mr Visser, to proceed? MR VISSER Mr Chairman, a third matter which I wish to bring up ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR VISSER If I then may continue to round off Mr Chairman, with Mr Erasmus - with your permission. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, one thing I think should be mentioned, there was reference was there not yesterday, to the fact that allegations had been made that he had been poisoned? MR VISSER That is indeed so Mr Chairman, quite correct. MR ERASMUS That is correct Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER (cont) Now could you please just place this into the proper context regarding your orders and instructions and the pressure from above which you experienced, is there a connection here and if so, what is this connection? MR ERASMUS As I said yesterday and also in the background that I sketched as to how I grew up, the fact that I grew up in a Christian democratic home - after that I followed a long career in the South African police and there were certain influences at work, I was influenced by certain courses for instance which I did and at a later stage when the struggle actually escalated into a war, the struggle became more and more intense and the pressure also increased - that is pressure from politicians, from our own head office and pressure exerted by the already established security system. This was pressure was aimed at achieving more purposeful action. There was also pressure from the surroundings and society because I think that the people who lived here could also - in respect of the activities of the youth and children who for instance became totally out of control, that that became a problem for society and the parents lost control over their children and we who had to perform this task experienced pressure. And that task was to keep the Government of the day in power. CHAIRPERSON Can I interrupt for a moment, by that do you mean that you did this to keep the Nationalist Party in power? MR ERASMUS It was the National party Government of the day, yes. And the attacks and everything which happened here, more specifically the actions undertaken by the youth and COSAS and so forth, these things were aimed at overthrowing the National Party Government of the day. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Erasmus, one last aspect. May I take you back to the process of discussions and talks which you had with du Plessis and van Niekerk or rather van Rensburg, apologies - Major van Rensburg, he was then a Major. Yesterday we referred to the fact that you were aware of the fact that there was a civil action brought by Mr Mthimkhulu, now certain reports in the media had already suggested in the past and also for the Harmse Commission, that that was the actual reason why Mr Mthimkhulu was killed. What is your comment on that? MR ERASMUS MR VISSER Now you also referred to the fact that Port Elizabeth was actually the core and the flash-point of violence in the years 1980 to 1982, did you have any fears about the further spreading of this violence? MR ERASMUS Yes, that is so. Statements made by - especially the youth, indicated that that was what would happen. MR VISSER What direction are you referring to? MR ERASMUS Well, to actually cause the violence to spread throughout the country. MR VISSER And according to your view, was there a real danger that if you failed to bring the situation under control, that there was a possibility that violence could be spread further by organisations such as COSAS and that it could become a nation-wide problem? MR ERASMUS Yes, that is so. I was also aware that many of these escalated more intense actions on the part of the revolutionary movement had started here and then spread to other parts of the country. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS No, I regarded COSAS as an extension and a support of the internal set-up because the cadres, many of them had to come from outside the borders of the country to come and work here and they had to have a contact organisation here to assist them. And for that reason I saw it as an extension and a leg of the ANC and a very strong supporting body. MR VISSER One last aspect Mr Erasmus, in your application you said that at some stage during your discussions there was a turning point, can you remember that? MR ERASMUS Yes, that happened during the last phase just before the decision was made. Information was given to me to the effect that since there were these allegations that the security police had poisoned Mr Mthimkhulu, that he had sworn to take revenge, especially revenge against members of the security branch because those were the people who had dealings with him over the years. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS Yes, there was that type of information. MR VISSER You also told the Committee yesterday that you were aware of certain attacks, armed attacks launched and directed at the bodyguards of Mr Buthalezi. MR ERASMUS That is so. MR VISSER MR ERASMUS MR VISSER Now, were there already recorded incidents of attacks on policemen or attacks on their property or families? MR ERASMUS Yes, there were. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman, we have no further questions at this time. That concludes the evidence in support of the application Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS When this elimination of the deceased was raised and you gave the order, did you think that you were acting in accordance with the security and safety policy of the then Government - that it was in line with the security policy of the day? MR ERASMUS That is what I believed and the reason why I had that belief was because of all the statements that had been made and the pressure that there was to - or the pressure for stronger action to address the situation. MR BOOYENS There was also a structure in those days called security management system, can you recall that? MR ERASMUS Yes, it had already been in existence for quite some time. MR BOOYENS Now just briefly, as a point of departure it had the State Security Council? MR ERASMUS MR BOOYENS And then I think on a provincial level, there was an extension of this council in the form of the JMC - Joint Management System, is that correct? MR ERASMUS That is correct, yes. MR BOOYENS Now, if we can deal briefly with the JMC, the JMC was normally under the Chairmanship of the commanding officer of the defence force for that particular province or area, is that correct? MR ERASMUS Yes. MR BOOYENS And these meetings were attended amongst others, by the police and members of the security branch, correct? MR ERASMUS These meetings were also attention by members of the uniform branch. MR BOOYENS I see, but also members of the security branch? MR ERASMUS Yes, security branch and uniform branch. MR BOOYENS As well as other State departments who could have a potential interest in matters discussed there? MR ERASMUS Yes, that is the case, the whole spectrum was represented. MR BOOYENS There were also other sub-committees under the JMC as Safety or Security Committees, Joint Information Centre, Joint Operational Centre, is that correct? MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR BOOYENS MR ERASMUS The JMC meetings as I saw it, actually constituted a controlling body or mechanism and all information had to be reported to the JMC, anything that happened in a particular department had to be reported back to the JMC. The JMC wanted to know what was happening in the various departments or what was not happening and why. MR BOOYENS And to be more specific, each and everything that happened within a particular department, are these things which could relate to the security situation in the country? MR ERASMUS Yes, and which could also have an impact on the economic field or whatever. MR BOOYENS At the JMC meetings - you attended these on behalf of the security branch? MR ERASMUS Yes. MR BOOYENS And I believe that on occasion Mr van Rensburg also attended some of these Sub-Committee meetings? MR ERASMUS MR BOOYENS The nature of what was discussed there and more specifically, relating to the people who were active - who were actively involved in trying to topple the security cart - to put it that way. Was that discussed there? MR ERASMUS The internal security situation was discussed at the JIC - the Joint Information Centre, that was what was discussed there. MR BOOYENS And at these Sub-Committee meetings, were there any discussions or suggestions as to how to combat and counter the revolutionary onslaught and how to counter the people threatening the security situation in the country? MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR BOOYENS Would it be correct to say - and it is my instructions, that at these meetings a very strong message was relayed, namely that you people in the Eastern Cape should actually control the situation? MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR BOOYENS And the messages which came through, did that come from the politicians or the police headquarters? MR ERASMUS It came from the National Security Management System and was then followed down through the channels. MR BOOYENS MR ERASMUS Correct. MR BOOYENS So the Secretariat was in fact the controlling body of the JMC system? MR ERASMUS MR BOOYENS I think it is a matter of public record that that was where many members of the Cabinet, State President and so forth, that is where they sat? MR ERASMUS MR BOOYENS Terms are bandied about, such as "elimination" or "hostile targets which had to be eliminated" or "leaders that had to be eliminated", are these terms familiar to you, were they used during discussions? MR ERASMUS I can remember that they were used during discussions and the term "eliminate" was used. MR BOOYENS One is aware of the fact that some of the politicians who used theses terms, later alleged that eliminate meant something different to what perhaps the dictionary definition would be, but for you as an Afrikaans speaking person, what does it mean when you say a person has to be eliminated? How would you understand it? MR ERASMUS I can only interpret it in one way, that is to kill somebody. MR BOOYENS MR ERASMUS Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Shortly, referring to your political purpose you wish to achieve, from the documentation it appears - also from the other applicants, that regarding the liberation movements and specifically COSAS being part of that liberation movement, what would you say was the ultimate purpose, not the short-term purpose, the ultimate purpose? MR ERASMUS The long-term purpose of these revolutionary organisations was amongst others, to throw over the Government, to get rid of the National Apartheid Government. MR BOOYENS And I think you can just refer to the political statements of that time, to realise that the politicians of that time also saw that as the purpose. Was that also your impression? MR ERASMUS Yes, it was very clear what the purpose of these people were because everything which happened on the ground was taken back to them through all these systems. MR BOOYENS The fact, was this channelled through your own police channels? Did you receive it from your direct line? MR ERASMUS First of all it was conveyed through our own channels and secondly, it was reported at the JIC, it was discussed there and it was taken further from there. MR BOOYENS MR ERASMUS Yes, that was what I believed. MR BOOYENS MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR BOOYENS At that time, there was a lot of pressure and also a lot of critisism regarding the security police. Many allegations were also made and we use a modern term or a term which is more relevant regarding human rights violations by the security police, can you remember that? MR ERASMUS Yes. MR BOOYENS Specifically allegations were made regarding the Port Elizabeth security police, is that correct? MR ERASMUS Yes. MR BOOYENS These allegations were made in the media, in the press and questions were posed in Parliament so people paid a lot of attention to that. MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR BOOYENS MR ERASMUS MR BOOYENS Why are you saying that? MR ERASMUS I base this on the fact that although investigations were undertaken into these circumstances, the difference between the pressure exerted on us to solve this situation and the questions which were posed after this information was published in the press, it was not of that high level which we would expect to have been asked. That is on what I based my viewpoint. MR BOOYENS Do I understand you correctly, your impression is it should - if they really wanted to investigate that, it should have been an in-depth investigation? MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Mr Phosa? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PHOSA Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Erasmus, I just want to get clarity on the issues that arise right now towards the end of your evidence. Firstly, are you saying that by politicians you include the State President of the day? MR ERASMUS Not the State President, if you refer to the present State President, no. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS ADV SANDI Sorry, Mr Phosa, can I try and help here? Mr Erasmus the question as I understand it from Mr Phosa, he says when you use - when you make reference to politicians, are you doing so including whoever is a State President at that time in question? Is that inclusive of a State President? MR ERASMUS Yes, this is a better question. Yes, it also includes that. MR PHOSA Have you Mr Erasmus, always been of this impression, that the State President was aware of the need to eliminate troublesome revolutionaries? MR ERASMUS I think that was the case. MR PHOSA MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA Because to put it as they would say nowadays, the bottom line. The bottom line is that these were not acts of political decision, they were acts of thugs who were simply intending to defend themselves and their pride, I can say much more than that. CHAIRPERSON I would ask members of the public to remember that we are not at a theatre, that we must preserve due decorum and if they do not do so, steps will have to be taken to ensure that the meeting is conducted peacefully. MR PHOSA MR VISSER MR PHOSA Then just give us the relevant President ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON You must brush up on your history Mr Phosa. MR PHOSA I do realise I should have done a bit of my history when I came - before coming here. The witness will be very helpful, he knows. Who was the State President who was also sitting at these Security State Councils? MR ERASMUS During that time I think it was P W Botha, Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA Was he Mr Botha, to your knowledge, aware of this need to eliminate people like Mr Mthimkhulu? CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON He was asked to give a history of the security set-up in those days. He explained that it was the Security Management System based on the State Security Council which came down to the Joint Management Council at provincial level. And that is the body he attended and spoke about, the rest was pure history to tell us how the ....[intervention] MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] precisely what was asked, if you had listened you would have heard Mr Visser say: "Will you tell us what the organisation was", so he told us. You are now asking him: "why did he tell us". MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON And ...[inaudible] a limited right of cross-examination. Mr Phosa, you will remember you have a limited right of cross-examination, not an unlimited right. MR PHOSA ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Chairman, I think we have to try and make some progress on this. As I understand your question Mr Phosa, to the witness, the question is: "Is it part of his testimony before this Committee that the person who was a State President at the time, must have known about the agenda or the programme to eliminate those who were opponents of the State". Is that your question to the witness? MR PHOSA That was the question that was overruled as being on my part, not having listened carefully, so that was really my question but I tried now to start from scratch in asking him. That is really the question, why - is that his evidence? ADV SANDI Were you happy with his explanation? He says: "Because I found this happening during the time with all the meetings by different structures". This is the impression he had. MR PHOSA ADV SANDI Do you want to answer that Mr Erasmus, is it your answer to the question, that the person who was the State President surely he must have known that the idea was to kill those who were opposing the State? MR ERASMUS I said Mr Chairman, I was under the impression that the politicians of the day knew about this. In that dispensation every department had a Minister and the Minister if he knew, he could have told for example, the State President. What the lines of communications were, I do not know. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS You can work on that basis, yes. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr PHOSA, maybe just to ensure that we do not come back to this. Mr Erasmus, when you say Mr Botha, the State President, every time knew of must have known about this killing ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ADV SANDI MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA That is a ...[inaudible] for saying, "If he said so", you would say: "He lies like politicians lie"? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA Now to take it a step further, on the understanding - please, understand at all times, on the understanding that it was your belief not only now but then that the politicians were talking about - knew the need for elimination, they need to eliminate - on that understanding, so when the decision was made to eliminate Mr Mthimkhulu and his colleague Mr Madaka, you did not expect that that decision would be disapproved of by the politicians, did you? MR ERASMUS This operation was a covert one and what I mean by covert - and perhaps this will become clearer later, is that it was performed in such a way that there should be no comeback or no tracks back to the security branch or to anybody. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I would have expected that if the matter was revealed there, that there would have been some reaction from the politicians right the way down to myself and I said that there was no such reaction. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I said that the constant pressure and statements created the perception in my mind that that was the intention. MR PHOSA Please, I deliberately choose the word political and do you know what I mean by political, when I say political decision - do you understand that? Do you know the meaning of political decision? MR ERASMUS Yes, I understand it very well. ADV DE JAGER MR PHOSA Sorry, I missed the preamble to that ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR PHOSA ADV DE JAGER MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I have stated that this was a covert operation and given the circumstances under which we were living in those days, I also said that there was no such reaction as far as I was aware. MR VISSER MR PHOSA Mr Erasmus, you see, that these were covert decisions seems to have been obvious right through your evidence. Can I just to clear that, say that - ask you whether when the word eliminating or to eliminate, those phrases were used at the provincial level, were those words or phrases used at a covert level in other words, where there was extreme secrecy or were they just being made publicly at the lower level? MR ERASMUS Chairperson, I think the questions was put to me as to the fact that politicians spoke about eliminating in public and later they denied this. And the question was also asked of me what does it mean and I told the Committee what I thought it means, so I said that it was mentioned during discussions. MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS That is correct. The term "elimination" as I said, was used - the word. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Mr Chairperson, I must ask that Mr Phosa perhaps just make it a little bit clearer - he made a lot of statements, perhaps he must repeat the question so that we can understand each other properly. MR PHOSA Right. You see, we have now established that whenever at any meeting, the word "eliminate" or the phrase "to eliminate" was mentioned - although it was said openly at the meeting, it remained a secret conversation. Am I correct? The meeting was secret. MR ERASMUS Yes, that is so, secret in the sense that that what was said there had to be dealt with in that way. MR PHOSA So, there was an understanding amongst all those who attended such meetings including politicians, that these were sensitive issues to be dealt with in a secret manner. MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Yes, I would most certainly have expected them to keep it a secret. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA Even death at the hands of the Government, was no shock anymore according to you? At the ...[inaudible] of the Government? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I can sate unequivocally that in this particular instance, I did not report it in the normal way and along the normal channels because I said it was a covert operation. MR PHOSA MR VISSER MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON Mr Phosa, is there any misunderstanding here? Did you in certain instances report back in the normal along normal channels? MR ERASMUS On a daily basis. CHAIRPERSON To whom did you report? MR ERASMUS I reported firstly, along the channels to head office and that happened on a daily basis. Then these systems - management systems were in place and I attended meetings there and these systems had sub-structures and sub-committees. And at that committee it was my task as divisional commissioner here locally, to give an overview of the security situation of the area within my jurisdiction, that was the reporting. So firstly, it was a direct channel to my head office and secondly, at these meetings I had to give an overview or a survey of the security situation. CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS That is my evidence. This specific instance was never documented and was never reported in such a way. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS That is so, that is what I testified. MR PHOSA You believed that you were making a decision in the interest of even Mr Botha, the President. MR ERASMUS I took this decision in order to protect the National Party Government of the day and to keep the Government in power, that was one of the legs on which I based my decision. One can them by implication say that the person who was in control of the State was the State President, Mr P W Botha. ADV DE JAGER MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA I think we shall again ...[inaudible] In the light of that impression of yours that you were acting on behalf of the Nationalist Party Government amongst others, you would have had no reason to fear in telling them the politicians, what your conclusions were. Do you understand the question? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS ADV DE JAGER MR ERASMUS That is correct, it was a covert operation and nobody could disclose such an operation in those circumstances. You can imagine for yourself what would the consequences have been if such action - the killing of people, had been made public. You can imagine what the reaction and repercussions have been in Port Elizabeth. CHAIRPERSON Well let us for forget about reporting and making public. Let us go back to the Joint Management Council. As I understand your evidence, various people representing the various departments attended these meetings and at these meetings it would be said that people should be eliminated. Did you not go back to the meeting of the same council and not make a report but merely say they could leave that matter it had been attended to, or something of that nature? MR ERASMUS Chairperson, I must return to my original point, the word eliminate was used at times and there was no specific or...[inaudible] instruction for us to do such and such in a particular case, in other words, I did not go back to the committee to report back because there was no specific instruction emanating from that committee about that particular case. CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS The term was used very generally, it was very generally used during meetings, no mention was made of specific cases or names and I did not as far as I can remember, I did not know that I reported it back to any committee. ADV SANDI Can you repeat that, are you saying you cannot remember if you reported this to any committee or structure? MR ERASMUS As far as I know, I did not report it anywhere. In total I did not report this incident. If I had done this, the first channel would have been to my headquarters, that would have been the first point of reference. ADV SANDI MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman, it was just the few of us who are sitting here who knew about this, it was not for the eyes and ears of anybody else. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS (s.u.o.) ADV SANDI CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PHOSA (cont) MR ERASMUS I mentioned it to nobody. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, I said I did not do it. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, I did not do that. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman I repeat, the task was executed and the knowledge of this operation only I and the colleagues who were with me, we were the only people who knew about this. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Because this was a covert operation, I did not report this matter. MR PHOSA Could you just cut out the word "covert" and answer the question. Did you or did you not believe that your senior members in the police force would have said to you, you cannot and do not do that? MR ERASMUS At this stage I would say, they would have probably not have agreed with me but if you talk on a man to a man basis or convey it to a certain person, the answer could have been yes also. MR PHOSA You did not convey it to a single person amongst your senior policemen on a man to man basis, your intention to eliminate these two? MR ERASMUS That is correct, I did not convey this to any other people. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, I did not discuss this with anybody. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I could have asked it but I did not ask this from them. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I repeat I could have done it but I did not do it. MR PHOSA MR VISSER MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA Yes but you know, I have used the word: "only". Besides these three others, is your evidence that: "I could not trust any other policeman in South Africa or in the world regarding this aspect". Now you answer is, "it is or it is not". I see your counsel is shaking his head. MR ERASMUS ADV DE JAGER MR PHOSA If they are joint murderers, yes. ADV DE JAGER MR PHOSA ADV DE JAGER Now I understand ...[inaudible] MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I cannot believe that I could not trust my other colleagues but in incidents like these or this specific incident, this was performed on a must know basis. I could not tell everybody that I came to such a point to perform this task. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I repeat, I trusted a lot of policemen but at this stage I want to say I did not, I personally did not talk about this to anybody because I regarded this case a need to know and those who knew and the others, for them it was not necessary to know. MR PHOSA I should ask you this question. Do you regard yourself and your colleagues in having eliminated these two young men, as having done a wonderful job - as you sit there now? MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON How many times did you do that? MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, there was one further incident for which I am applying for amnesty which will serve before this Committee, and that was all. CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS It was not new - this was not the first incident of this kind I agree but the first incident, those circumstances were not the same. ADV SANDI Is there perhaps any incident similar to the two you have mentioned which you may have forgotten? MR ERASMUS If you mean where murder was involved, no. ADV SANDI Do I understand you to say that there was nothing preventing you from giving a report to your senior security officers? If you wished to do so you would have done so, there was nothing preventing you. MR ERASMUS That is the normal procedure. Under normal circumstances there was nothing which could prevent me but in this instance I did not report back. ADV SANDI MR ERASMUS I could have done it like that, yes. ADV SANDI You did not see the need to do so? MR ERASMUS I did not see a need for that because I handled it on a need to know basis. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS The other incident was the Kondile matter. MR PHOSA That was in 1981? MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR PHOSA You did not report that incident to any senior of yours, did you? MR ERASMUS That incident I handled on the same basis as this one, in other words, I did not report back. MR PHOSA You keep saying in response to some questions: "Yes, in the normal situation yes, I would do a, b, c, or x, y, z, but you see, earlier on when I started cross-examining you or questioning you, you said: "In those days in that period the death of human beings was a normal thing", do you remember saying that? Do you remember saying that? MR ERASMUS What I meant Mr Chairman was, that people died during this unrest period, many people died on a daily basis. They died where the police and the protesters got involved, where they murdered one another, this is was I meant by that. I did not mean that the police just killed people during that period. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I have just repeated that it was a very unpleasant task for me as a person and I think also for all my colleagues. It was a very difficult thing to do, extremely difficult. MR PHOSA Without having asked Mr Chairman, why he raised the question, I can assume and I ask it my own way - the one before, the Kondile incident the year or so or even less before that, was that not also a very nasty thing to have done or to do? MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman, that was also a nasty thing to do. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I must admit and I say I was wrong but the circumstances of these two cases are unrelated. I understand Mr Chairman, that did not prevent me from doing this deed. It is like that. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Yes, it did bother me. This was an ongoing feeling which never leaves one. MR PHOSA Which one? Did you have an ongoing feeling after killing Kondile, a feeling that never left you? MR ERASMUS Yes, I could never forget that. ADV SANDI MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Yes, that is my evidence, that is my personal, my human evidence that I could never forget that. MR PHOSA As you were giving instructions to these other gentlemen to go and destroy, eliminate, wipe out these two gentlemen, that is Mthimkhulu and Madaka, as you were doing that you were still having this terrible feeling about what you had done with Kondile. MR ERASMUS I have told you Mr Chairman, I could never forget this incident. MR PHOSA So the answer is yes, at the time that you were busy doing this you were still having this terrible feeling about what you had done the year before - the answer is yes. MR ERASMUS It is yes, Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA Did you discuss with your colleagues - the other colleagues, regarding this incident the present one, when it should be done - when? MR ERASMUS Are we referring to Mthimkhulu and Madaka? MR PHOSA The answer is yes. MR ERASMUS Yes, I discussed with them when this should be done. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, in my evidence I said that du Plessis and van Rensburg came to me and they reported back to me regarding the situation surrounding - centring around Mthimkhulu and Madaka. They mentioned the activities in which these people were involved during that specific unrest period. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Yes, there was continuous reporting regarding these two but the handling of this specific incident where we concentrated on the roles of these two people and reports were provided regarding these two. CHAIRPERSON Could I clear up one point before you go on. As I recollect your evidence you said: "If I remember, it was 10 days before the 14th of April 1982", is that correct? MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman, as far as I can remember. CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS That is so. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS It is like that, they made certain suggestions to me. MR PHOSA So, in fairness to you insofar as one can be fair to you, you were reacting ...[intervention] MR VISSER MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON They should certainly be fair, they may not be friendly but we are not going to have unfair questions Mr PHOSA. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS In the final stage when this final report - after these people went back and discussed to determine whether there were any other channels or options which could be followed, we discussed this incident for a whole morning to decide or to try and determine what to do in this regard. This - after 15 years, this is what I can remember and I can say we just did not decide quickly to eliminate these people, it was after long consideration considering all these options, to think about court actions, detention and other things, we considered all those. It took a long time to come to this decision and in the end it was an extremely difficult decision we all made at that stage. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS We took the decision jointly but I was the commanding officer and I have to accept responsibility for the decision. ADV SANDI Can I interrupt Mr Phosa, just for clarity. MR ERASMUS You could put it that way. I as the senior officer in the organisation at that stage and locally, had to accept responsibility for it. ADV SANDI You accordingly gave the permission that they should be killed or eliminated, in your jargon. MR ERASMUS In my evidence in chief I said that I did give the permission. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR VISSER The interpretation missed out on the phrase that it - with respect Mr Chairman, that it lasted for a period of 10 days. That phrase was not interpreted, I think it needs to be on record. ADV SANDI Did the witness say the discussions went on for a period of 10 days? MR VISSER It stretched over a period of 10 days, he said in Afrikaans but that was not translated. ADV SANDI Can we perhaps ask the witness to repeat what he has just said, so that we can get proper and accurate interpretation. MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR PHOSA Now, who decided that the 14th was going to be the date? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR ERASMUS Were you told on the 14th that on the 14th that: "We are going to do it today"? MR ERASMUS Chairperson, I was told when these people had been picked up or abducted, then I was informed. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Yes, and today I want to say to the Committee that I strongly considered doing that after it was reported to me, I considered stopping the whole process. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA I did not listen to your words directly, at that moment I was listening to the interpretation in English, so I want just to make sure that I heard correctly. As it came out it says: "I want to say to you that the possibility of turning it around no longer existed", is that correctly interpreted? ADV DE JAGER His exact words was: "The road for turning around was no longer there". MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I could not change my decision at that stage. MR PHOSA At that stage you say the matter was beyond your control, your personal control? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I said that I could no longer change my decision. ADV DE JAGER Mr Phosa, could I try and help? Mr Erasmus, you said could not change your decision at that stage and that you assume responsibility for that. What Mr Phosa wants to get from you is, why could you not change your decision? What caused you to stand by your previous decision and not to change it? MR ERASMUS I would like to answer this question as follows as to why I did not change my decision after having considered doing so. There were these two people who had literally been abducted and kidnapped, now from that further and bigger problems could arise. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS At that stage after the kidnapping - at that stage my decision had already been given, it had been given before the kidnapping so the operation was now in full swing, it was in the execution phase so ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER The interpreter could not hear the entire sentence. ADV SANDI MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA You seem to suddenly miss the point, no-one asked you why you did not give the order to kill again. The question being asked is whether at that stage you were physically in a position to say: "Hey, stop it"? Now I understood you to be saying: "Hey, it was too late, I could not do it". ADV DE JAGER What he in fact said, he reconsidered it but decided not to stop it. MR PHOSA Are you saying that when they told you: "The man is captured now", you said to yourself: "Must they go on, must they not", said: "Let them go on, that decision is quite correct, let them go on - my earlier decision was correct". Is that what went on in your mind? MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON Did you know where they were being taken to? MR ERASMUS ADV SANDI In terms of the decision, where were they going to be abducted and taken to - in terms of the decision you had taken together? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA Be that as it may. Now, am I correct in the understanding that they were not eliminated on the day on which they were abducted - on the same day? MR ERASMUS I think that is correct, yes. MR PHOSA Sorry, when did you get to know that they were either not going to be eliminated on that day or that in fact on that day they were not eliminated, when did that get to your ...[inaudible] MR ERASMUS My knowledge of this incident is to the effect that when - my knowledge about this comes from when it was reported back to me after the incident that is was successful. MR PHOSA Now I just want clarity on this. Are you saying on the occasion - on the date that these two people were abducted, you were not informed on that day that they are still alive, they have not yet been eliminated - at the end of that day you were not informed? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA No, maybe a bit more. When you got up the next day, the 15th, were you of the impression that these people are gone - that they have now been eliminated as you got up that morning? MR ERASMUS If I recall correctly, I was informed on that day that the operation had been carried out. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA I would like you to realise that whatever you say we take seriously. Are you now saying that it was impossible for you for a period of even 24 hours after the report, to find out from these people whether they had actually killed these two young people? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS My evidence on this question is the following. I had no form of contact with these people ...[intervention] ADV SANDI Can I assist here Mr Phosa, maybe to phrase the question differently. MR ERASMUS ADV SANDI Were they supposed to come back to you after carrying out this mission - according to the plan of action, were they supposed to come back to you? MR ERASMUS That is correct, they were supposed to report back to me as to whether the operation had been carried out. ADV SANDI Does that answer your question Mr Phosa? CHAIRPERSON Well let me ask another one first. Did you know where they were taking these people to? MR ERASMUS I know now and it had been reported to me where the operation had been carried out, so I know now. CHAIRPERSON Did you know then? MR ERASMUS ADV SANDI ADV DE JAGER MR PHOSA Was that your evidence? MR ERASMUS That is correct, it was reported to me that the people had already been picked up and that they were on their way. If I think back to our discussions, we very possibly decided that because it was a covert operation there was no place where the operation could be carried out and that they had to be taken away. MR PHOSA Now, was it discussed between - amongst the three or more or you - is it three of you, as to how precisely the elimination was going to be done? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Because this was such an unpleasant task that they had to carry out, once again we did not discuss it in detail. All that was said was that it was carried out and it was properly completed. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman ...[intervention] MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS No, I think it is the day after they had been eliminated - if I remember correctly. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I believe that it was the day after the elimination. I said that I had no contact with the people. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I can recall that I was at home, if I recall correctly - things become hazy after a period of time but if I remember correctly, I was at home when the report was made to me. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Sorry? MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I stand by what I said, that is as far as I can remember otherwise I could have told you I was sitting in my office. What I can remember is that at that stage I was at home - that is as I remember it. MR PHOSA MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA Am I being allowed to explain why or to ask the question? CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA Now when Mr van Rensburg gave the report - if it was Mr van Rensburg as we think who gave the report to you, did he give you the details of where the people eliminated and how they were eliminated? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I think initially at our discussions we decided that this operation should be made to look as if the two deceased had left the country, so I believe that they would have told me that the car had been left near the border. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON The Transkei police took it, did they? MR VISSER MR PHOSA Now whether the report was given by Mr van Rensburg or not - just one more time, at that stage did you reflect upon the wisdom or otherwise of now reporting to some senior policeman that it had happened? MR ERASMUS I did not consider it. MR PHOSA Just a matter of fact, was it physically possible for you to report it, in other words if you had wanted to you could have done that MR ERASMUS That is correct, it was physically possible. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA May the Committee just bear with me, I want to check on this because I think that is the position as I understood it. ADV DE JAGER Was the situation in the Eastern Cape discussed as should it be a situation to be out of control? MR ERASMUS That is so Chairperson, the situation was very bad. ADV DE JAGER Was there any decisions or statements from a higher level, from Parliament or the Minister that you should be doing something to get it under it control? MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman yes, the pressure from the top, from the Ministers through the head of security were extremely high - this situation should be solved, stronger action should be taken. This was because of what was happening here in the Eastern Cape. ADV DE JAGER Was the defence force also involved at this stage? MR ERASMUS Yes, the defence force was involved. ADV DE JAGER Why were they involved, what was given as the reason for their involvement? MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, the defence force had a big component here in the Eastern Cape - they were not brought in, they were here at that stage but the co-operation was there, they had to assist us because the South African police were a few members and because of long hours the people were tired and everybody who could assist us had to help. ADV DE JAGER Would the police have been able to cope without the assistance of the defence force? MR ERASMUS At that stage I would say no. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Is that not so Mr Phosa? MR PHOSA What? CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON His answer was: "I did not get the impression that I was letting down the rest of the country, there was a flash-point here in Port Elizabeth". MR PHOSA Now you said something yesterday about your not knowing anything about the poisoning of Mr Mthimkhulu. Do you still say so? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA Did you get to know that there was some medical opinion regarding that incident, in other words, some medical views to whatever but did you know of any medical opinion regarding that particular incident? MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, I did not read that but I know that there were certain medical points of view. MR PHOSA When you say you know that here were certain medical points of view, are you saying yes, you aware that certain medical experts commented about this incident, are you saying yes? MR ERASMUS I have stated yes, it was also reflected in the local newspapers. MR PHOSA Without giving details - I just want to indicate to you what I am referring to and hear whether you also got to hear about that amongst other things. For instance, did you hear a mention that it was thallium poison, some thallium poisoning? MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Is it disputed gentlemen that it was - he did suffer from thallium poisoning at the time set up in the reports and that he was treated for it? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Yes, it seems that one of the reasons why is that something mysterious happened to the samples on the way to the laboratory. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON The other part is in the medical report which says what the report they received from an English laboratory ...[intervention] MR VISSER ADV DE JAGER MR VISSER MR PHOSA ADV DE JAGER MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA Yes, that will suit me a lot, thank you. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON We will proceed now with the hearing. I should perhaps inform everyone that - thanks to the co-operation of the staff and particularly the interpreters and the other members of the staff, we propose to continue with the hearing tomorrow and will then go on up till the end of the week including Friday, to try to complete it. Right, Mr Phosa, do you have any further questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PHOSA (cont) MR ERASMUS It is correct Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA That was pressure being put to you as the Port Elizabeth branch of the security police, is that so? MR ERASMUS It is correct Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA Yes, in other words then I understood from that, to say that the feeling was that your branch - at these discussions, your branch had to do more than other branches to solve the problem. MR VISSER MR PHOSA I object my learned friend, I give you an answer that amounts to an answer - an objection. CHAIRPERSON Nowhere has he said, Mr Phosa, that the pressure was on his branch only, you keep putting it but he has not agreed to that in his evidence. MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON Was any particular pressure on the Eastern Cape branch other than the pressure on the other branches? MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, I think there was a big pressure here in the Easter Cape because this division was the flash-point because of the continuous unrest situation. MR PHOSA I will get an apology from all of you for being - viewed as being unfair to the witness. So quite clearly then when you left that meeting, you felt that your branch or your division was required to do more than it had done up to them? MR ERASMUS I wish to explain to the Chairman the following, it was a once off situation, these discussion that there should be done more in the Eastern Cape, in the P.E. and environment, was a continuous discussion. It was my duty but because the situation deteriorated, we had to take extra steps in this regard. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, it had nothing to do with my pride or the pride of my people, it had to do with the solution and the handling of an impossible situation. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, I deny it in total. MR PHOSA You gave a background referring to a number of - to a few instances being examples of what - how rife the unrest or political instability was in the Eastern Cape and you went right back to even as far as the incident at Graaf Reinet, do you remember that - at the funeral in Graaf Reinet? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA Are you also saying the event in Sharpville, Vereniging so many years back had a bearing on what you did here in 1982 regarding these two young men? MR ERASMUS I believe so yes, that from where I have started, my first experience with these political marches, this political unrest that it already became evident that the Black people were not satisfied with the Government of the day and it did make an impression on me. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS If I remember correctly Mr Chairman, after this march in Cape Town the next two incidents arose, the one at Langa and the one in Sharpeville where people were shot dead. I did not expand on that as far as I know. ADV DE JAGER MR PHOSA ADV DE JAGER Were the incidents in Sharpeville and the present uprisings part of the freedom struggle? MR ERASMUS It was the beginning of this liberation struggle. MR PHOSA Your beginning of the liberation struggle is very limited, the struggle started long before that. Anyway, am I not correct in my understanding that right through the country there were incidents of violence, in other words violence was not restricted to the Eastern Cape? MR ERASMUS I came from Pietermaritzburg in Natal at that stage and nothing was happening there in comparison to what was happening here. I would not deny that elsewhere incidents like these were happening. MR PHOSA Do I understand that - sorry, the suggestion that elimination be resorted to was for the entire country, in other words the idea as you understood it the police all over the country where there was a problem like this, must destroy - kill people? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I did not see his confession Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, at that stage no statement was shown to me, no confession was shown to me. If it was a confession, I did not see it. CHAIRPERSON Do you know if there was a confession in existence, whether he had made a confession? MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, no. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS He was detained for a long time Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA For interrogation obviously, not for fun? MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, that was what the legislation made provision for. MR PHOSA I put two questions - you mean for interrogation? He was detained for interrogation? MR ERASMUS Correct Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA Was he interrogated? MR ERASMUS Yes, he was interrogated. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS It is so Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA How was he answering? MR ERASMUS At this stage I cannot remember what he answered. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Yes, it would have been important, outstanding confessions which we could have used. MR PHOSA MR VISSER With respect Mr Chairman, that was in regard to Madaka, no evidence in that regard was presented in regard to Mr Mthimkhulu. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I did mention that there was not enough evidence to institute successful prosecutions. MR PHOSA MR VISSER MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I cannot deny that such cases might have happened. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA Are you giving evidence here all this time and all the details and things you have done without sight of any documentation regarding that period? MR ERASMUS In other documents or publications you can find a lot of this information I have provided, I did not have access to Government documents. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I did not control - I did not look at any of these records. MR PHOSA Does the same apply to Mr Madaka? MR ERASMUS Yes, Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA But as you know the position, you would expect - if everything goes normally, that those records are available to date. If everything is being done properly, those records should be available. MR ERASMUS If everything went in a normal way those documents will still be available. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS It is so, yes. MR PHOSA By whom they were arrested and by whom they were interrogated? MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA The occasions when they were interrogated and the places where they were interrogated? MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA And they ought also to have the various notes or statements or just call them scribblings of what they were saying, all that ought to be found somewhere? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA Sorry, by "ought" I mean if everything goes normally one would expect to find all that? MR ERASMUS Yes, Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA Just before the lunch adjournment, I made reference to poisoning to what you had said in court - before the Commission, do you remember that? I put that you had said you nothing about the poisoning, do you remember me saying that? MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA Yes, now why I referred to - to make it - to shorten this now, why I referred to medical experts is because in the records - in the information provided for me to ask here, there is a portion where some medical experts say something. Now in brief, one of the things they say is this and I want your comment on that, they say this kind of poison is very, very rare, officially it was continued in South Africa, did you see that? CHAIRPERSON Where is this? MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON Yes, I just want the reference - page number. MR PHOSA MR VISSER Mr Chairman, there are various references, the first is page 42, that is where Doctor Marais, Doctor Abe Marais gives a statement in regard to Mr Siphiwe Mthimkhulu and the second paragraph where he says "This opinion is held for several reasons firstly," and then he continues to refer to the rarity of it. MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER Except the ...[inaudible] MR PHOSA Now it says firstly, well he puts it this way "We the undersigned Francis Rix Ames and Adrian David Marais declare under oath that the deliberate administration of thallium to anybody indicates a sophisticated knowledge of chemistry and/or toxicology or access to such knowledge by the perpetrator of such a poisoning". Then he says: In 1974, Cavana et Al" - then he mentions a "...[inaudible] reported three cases of deliberate poisoning. He noted that it was extremely rare in Britain". MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS It is correct, you could obtain that. Explosives were available in this dispensation. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I know Doctor Neethling. MR PHOSA How do you know him as, what is he? MR ERASMUS If reference is made at General Neethling or the former General Neethling, I know him. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I think he was a well known chemist. MR PHOSA And he is associated with the police, in other words he was practising his chemistry in his capacity as a member of the police force? MR ERASMUS That is correct, he was a policeman. CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I am aware of that, yes. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I said that I did not assault these deceased people and that they were not assaulted in my presence, I think that is what I said. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Yes. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I did matric and then I wrote all the further exams. MR PHOSA And with we have heard, what we could call considerable experience as a policeman? MR ERASMUS Yes, I was in the police force for many years. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Yes, I am. MR PHOSA My question was simply if it were - now meaning a hypothetical situation where the police were to say: "Now we should do it", if it had to be decided that someone must be eliminated for reasons given - good reasons as far as police are concerned, surely assaulting him is but a minor portion of that exercise, in other words it will be quite natural that he should be assaulted? MR ERASMUS I suppose it could be like that. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS No, it would not be acceptable and I ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Mr Erasmus, what the advocate is putting to you is this, here you have a person who is causing trouble and ultimately you decide that the person has to be killed, why did you not try to see whether the problem could be solved by just assaulting him first? Perhaps an assault would have caused him to change his views and he would stop giving trouble. MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Yes, that is so. MR PHOSA Are you aware of any member of the security police in your area who has anywhere alleged that Mthimkhulu was assaulted by members of your team during interrogation? MR ERASMUS Could you repeat the question please? MR PHOSA Did any member of the security police in your division at any stage allege that Mthimkhulu was assaulted by your team during interrogation? Have you come across any such allegation? MR ERASMUS No. MR PHOSA Did anybody before I did - okay sorry, can I repeat - withdraw and repeat it in a different form? Before you stood up yesterday and gave evidence here - evidence in chief being led by Mr Visser, had anybody every suggested or asked you whether or not you were aware of an allegation that your members did that, in other words, did someone say to you: "A member of the security police claims that there was an assault"? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Whether a member of my team made such allegations? CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON Have you any knowledge of a member of the security police in your division saying it did happen, that is the question. MR ERASMUS ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA MR VISSER MR PHOSA Okay thank you, thank you. Now, thank you very much. According to bundle B on page 7 there is a person called - who goes by the name of Hamilton Bobelo, now do you know such a person? MR ERASMUS There was such a person, he was a member of my staff while I was stationed here and I think this piece was shown to me by the advocate, now that I see it and the name of Bobelo, I think so. MR PHOSA Now you suddenly remember now that: "Yes, I think my advocate showed me this". MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA Is it a - sorry, - is it a matter of no real consequence to you that a member of your team says something about an improper conduct by your team? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Not at all. I have no knowledge of the content of this document. MR PHOSA Lest there be a misunderstanding - an alleged misunderstanding later, are you saying that you did not read this document and it was not read by anyone else to you until now? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA So all you mean is, you just saw the name there - the name was mentioned Hamilton Bobelo and nothing else was said about what is contained therein? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON And you say also as I understand you, that neither your attorney nor your counsel discussed this document with you? And by that I mean discussed the contents with you. MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS That is true. MR PHOSA You even drew his attention to something that was said my Mr Miditshwa when you were not present. MR VISSER MR PHOSA MR VISSER MR PHOSA My apologies. Can I ask him and please, may I ask the question, did you at any stage discuss with your counsel the aspect that was raised yesterday about - in the evidence of Mr Maditshwa, did you? MR ERASMUS Mr Visser discussed it with me, he showed me a phrase there which we dealt with yesterday. MR PHOSA You obviously gave your own reaction to the phrase before you came here to give evidence, you gave him your views on it. Your answer Sir? MR ERASMUS Yes, I did give my view about it. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS All I can say is that that is not so. MR PHOSA ADV DE JAGER Could you kindly assist me and refer me to the exact passage that links Mr Bobelo and Erasmus in the affidavit please? MR PHOSA I just thought that this gentleman is in charge of all the police who interrogated Mr Bobelo - Mr Mthimkhulu ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR PHOSA I repeat, ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR PHOSA ADV DE JAGER MR PHOSA ADV DE JAGER MR PHOSA Besides that Mr de Jager - Mr Commissioner - Committee member, I have difficulty in law as to why you want me to do that. It has no relevance because ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR PHOSA ADV DE JAGER MR PHOSA MR VISSER Well Mr Chairman, may I reluctantly join in the thray? On the basis of the questions and the fairness to the questions to Mr Erasmus, I wish to point out that nowhere in this affidavit has Mr Gerrit Erasmus been implicated by Mr Bobelo. In point of fact Mr Bobelo himself, refers to a period of time which you will notice at page 9 the second last paragraph, where he states that Nick van Rensburg was in charge of the security branch. CHAIRPERSON It says 1981 on the first page of it, a Friday in 1981. MR VISSER Oh yes, oh yes but the problem remains a problem Mr Chairman, and with respect there is no implication of Mr Erasmus in this affidavit nor any reason why this should have been given to him to read or detail - discussed with him in detail. CHAIRPERSON I would have thought it was extremely cogent when there are allegations that this man was detained for 5 months, assaulted by the police, an action has been instituted against the Minister and now there is an affidavit from a policeman who says he was there. I would certainly have discussed it with my client Mr Visser. MR VISSER Yes Mr Chairman, only insofar as the allegation is concerned but not the detail yes, certainly. CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS Yes, I know about this action which was instituted. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS It is correct Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA Once more, when that particular aspect of your evidence was tendered, I listened exclusively to the English interpretation so I want to be sure in my mind that you said so. Did you say that the - when the earliest opportunity for you to clear your heard - your breast of this matter, presented itself you did so? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS That is true. MR PHOSA In fact as we now know - at least as we know, there were two big lies concerning the death of three people that you would not have divulged at all to any person other than the three who were with you or the five who were involved with you? MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, I have said this secret concerning these deeds, I did not divulge that to anybody so when did I lie then? MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS It is not so Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS That is correct, they knew about that. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS The statement is also correct. MR PHOSA Even when - may the Commission bear with me? Even when last year the TRC, that is The Truth and Reconciliation Committee was listening to victims and your name amongst others was mentioned ...[intervention] MR VISSER MR PHOSA MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible MR VISSER ADV SANDI MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON Is there such a page? Is this the bundle that you gave me yesterday - which I gave to you yesterday? Surely you made a note of the page if there was such a page Mr Phosa, if you saw it. What is the page number, is what Mr Visser wants to know? MR PHOSA I did not act on the basis purely of that document I was given yesterday, I was given instructions that there was an application by members of the security police and I assumed then that he was one of them so as soon as the objection was raised I wanted to stop and get instructions. CHAIRPERSON What are your instructions, can your attorney give evidence to that effect? MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON From whom do you get instructions if not your attorney? MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON Five minutes. I apologise, we did say half past two. MR PHOSA Five minutes will be inadequate now because I require it for the phone call, I require it for getting the information. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Carry on. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PHOSA (cont) You are aware that an application was made before the Human Rights Committee of the TRC last year here ...[intervention] MR VISSER His Lordship, Mr Justice King gave a judgement in favour of the applicants, it was overturned by the full bench of the Cape Provincial Division and the Appellate Division upheld the judgment of King J and that is what happened. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR PHOSA Did you become aware last year in whatever manner, that there was an application being made or intended to be made by alleged victims regarding amongst others, conduct of security policemen? Did you become aware at all before hand or at any stage that there was intended to bring such an application? MR ERASMUS There was an application but the circumstances surrounding it and what it was about, I do not know. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS That is correct, I saw the press regarding this matter. MR PHOSA You did not in any way take any steps to assist them in their concerns by in whatever manner, letting them know what really happened - you did not. MR ERASMUS No, I did not. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Yes, it is so Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS It could have been an opportunity but I was planning to apply for amnesty. ADV SANDI MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA You Mr Erasmus, did not apply for amnesty at the earliest available opportunity for you to do so? MR ERASMUS I want to tell the Committee that that in itself was a very difficult decision for us, it was difficult for us to do that. I understand what you are telling me, that to come to the fore and make full disclosure is just as difficult. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA Even after you got to know that you could apply for amnesty, whatever the reasons are you remained deliberating whether to do so or not to do so. MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA You did not approach the family of these unfortunate children either - these two young men, you did not approach that family to apologise privately? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA Well the truth of the matter is, you never entertained that idea of approaching the family surely? MR ERASMUS No, I did not Mr Chairman. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Yes, I know there was an application. MR PHOSA Were you not amongst those? MR ERASMUS No, I was not there. MR PHOSA Did you ever speak to those members and say - and just discuss their attitude towards the whole discussion, did you approach them at all - the other policemen, just to find out what their attitude is? MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, I do not know who they were and nobody contacted me and I did not have contact with any or them. MR PHOSA Just one more thing, you said something about your church background. What is the relevance of your church background to what you have done? MR ERASMUS The relevance Mr Chairman, is that I am a believer. I served in the church for a short time and I want to tell the Committee today that in Port Elizabeth after or before that incident I resigned and never ever I served in any church council. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA All right, maybe you forgotten that why you mentioned it. Can I just ask you this way, does your church do like most churches that I know of - that say: "Thou shalt not kill"? MR ERASMUS Yes, we see that in the 10 Commandments. MR PHOSA And you were also brought up in that manner in your church? MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR PHOSA Does your church also say: "You must not lie"? MR ERASMUS I assume that that is the case. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS Correct, yes. MR PHOSA Even again in that regime a policeman was not supposed to assault people during interrogation? MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR PHOSA Similarly, a policeman under that regime was not supposed to lie? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS I have told you today that if I had reported it and I explained myself on that point, then the answer could have gone either way, either yes or no, it could have been either. MR PHOSA Well, which means even as you are doing this act - if we take your evidence now, you did think: "I might just not get support of the police to kill these people" - the head of the police? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA Now I have a bit of a difficulty, I thought ...[inaudible] Are you saying that the attitude of your seniors never entered your mind in the course of your taking this decision - the possible attitude of your seniors? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS No, I would not that in any circumstances because that is not true. MR PHOSA Did you ever get to hear that Mthimkhulu alleged that he was actually shot - shot during arrest, by members of the security police? MR ERASMUS I can vaguely recall that and I would say yes, I can recall that there was a shooting incident. MR PHOSA Sorry, sorry. Was - where members of your team - those who dealt with him or even arrested him, under an obligation to inform you that he had been shot and of the circumstances under which that happened? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA Can I put it to you, as a matter of fact Mr Mthimkhulu was shot, are you denying that? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA Now, did members of your police - of your team of the security branch report that incident to you? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA And did you take the necessary steps that are normally taken when a report like that reaches a person of your status? MR ERASMUS The necessary steps and the normal procedure would be that any shooting incident would be reported and would be investigated, not by my staff but by another section of the South African police. MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS It was done in that way, yes. MR PHOSA Was the person that shot him identified? MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS MR PHOSA MR ERASMUS There ought to be, yes. MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PHOSA EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK Thank you. Just on that aspect, I understand that the two pages were made by Mr Visser of Mr Wagner because that was the only reference to Mr Erasmus, the other evidence given was quite irrelevant to these proceedings. Elizabeth? MR ERASMUS MR BRINK Is that when you became aware of his activities? You were informed abut them presumably? MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR BRINK Would you have been the one to have authorised his detention in May 1981? MR ERASMUS We would have sent an application to headquarters and if it was in terms of the security legislation, I would not have authorised it. MR BRINK No, but on the basis that it would have been approved, would you have taken responsibility for the authorisation of his detention once it had been approved by head office. MR ERASMUS Yes. MR BRINK So, would it be fair to say that you probably authorised his detention on the 31st of May 1981? MR ERASMUS If the approval did take place and there would be a document embodying it, then the answer is yes. MR BRINK MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR BRINK Did you at any stage visit him during the course of his detention from the 31st of May to the 20th of October 1981? MR ERASMUS MR BRINK So you have no independent recollection of what his physical condition might have been at any time during the period May to October 1981? MR ERASMUS MR BRINK MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON The discussion took place over a period of 10 days, it started on the 10th ...[intervention] MR VISSER Correct. CHAIRPERSON It started on the 4th. MR VISSER On the 4th. MR BRINK MR ERASMUS That is correct. MR BRINK And you were aware of course that - I think it was one the 2nd of April 1982, proceedings had been launched against the Minister of Law and Order or Minister of Police - he was then, by Mthimkhulu for damages as a result of the treatment which he alleged he received at the hands of security policemen? CHAIRPERSON As I understand it, the summons on the 2nd was in result of the poisoning - that he had already issued summons in respect of other damages on the 15th of December, is that not correct? MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON I take it that once a summons of that nature had been served, they would have made enquiries as to whether they should defend the action in matters of that nature? MR ERASMUS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And they would have made enquiries of you and people in your department? MR ERASMUS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS MR BRINK Thank you Mr Chairman. Yes, that date appears at page 97 of bundle B on the third item from the Pretoria News, 20th of June 1990. You see, there must have been discussion between you and your co-applicants about the second summons which related to the poisoning which was a very serious allegation indeed, do you agree with me? MR ERASMUS MR BRINK Let me try and be more clear. You see, a summons was issued by Mthimkhulu on the 2nd of April 1982, in terms of which he was claiming damages for alleged poisoning - poisoning by members of the security police, do you remember that? MR ERASMUS I remember that. MR BRINK And that must have caused you some considerable concern Mr Erasmus. MR ERASMUS It was a difficult situation, it was uncomfortable, it was an embarrassment for the South African police. MR BRINK Yes, highly embarrassing and highly dangerous, would you agree? MR ERASMUS MR BRINK MR ERASMUS Correct, yes. MR BRINK A somewhat unfortunate coincidence, was it not? MR ERASMUS I agree, yes. MR BRINK MR ERASMUS MR BRINK MR ERASMUS It could create such an impression. MR BRINK Yes, thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON So you were aware that there was going to be a public enquiry at which witness were being subpoenaed on the 5th May into serious allegations of assault? Do you recall that? MR ERASMUS Correct. MR BRINK Thank you Mr Chairman, I have finished. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK ADV DE JAGER Mr Erasmus, when you were having these discussions over a period of approximately 10 days and eventually came to the conclusion that you would eliminate these people, I want to put it to you that at that stage you were aware of the subpoena relating to the poisoning case. MR ERASMUS ADV DE JAGER MR ERASMUS That is correct. ADV DE JAGER MR ERASMUS I would like to state unequivocally that that was not discussed. ADV DE JAGER But you had discussed the kind of problems that these people were causing you? MR ERASMUS Yes, we had made a decision as to the kind of problems they were causing. ADV DE JAGER And you came to the decision which you did as a result of the problems they were creating for you? MR ERASMUS Yes, it was based on the situation of unrest. ADV DE JAGER For me as an outsider, it seems to me that that would have been one of the biggest problems that they would have created for you. MR ERASMUS No, I do not agree. The discussion here turned on the overthrow of the Government and the revolutionary climate and attempts to destabilise the Government. ADV DE JAGER But would it not have been a major embarrassment for the Government that you were trying to protect if this case - this poisoning case came to court? MR ERASMUS I think the issue was so thoroughly discussed and dealt with in the media that the embarrassment had already been created. CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON Are you serious in that, are you suggesting that it would not have made a difference if a court of this country had found that he had been deliberately poisoned by members of the security police? MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Because we have been given an affidavit by Mr Dirk Coetzee - or when I say we, those members hearing that application, in which he says he played a prominent part in this killing. Have you seen the affidavit? MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON Kondile. MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON Well, his affidavit says that he was summoned by Brigadier Schoon to collect knock-out drops from Lood and Neethling, which he arranged - and he arranged to meet Nick van Rensburg and his team at Komatiepoort. It would seem from that that there was very close connection between your Port Elizabeth squad and people in Pretoria. MR ERASMUS I suppose that is true if he says that, I had no contact with him. CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS No, the matter was not discussed again, it was finalised. CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON And he then said that Major General Johan Coetzee, then Chief of Security personally investigated the case. Did that happen? MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON And that it was then that Jan du Preez told him that it had been decided to kidnap Siphiwe and get rid of him and leave his car at the border. Are you aware that he said this? MR ERASMUS I read it in the press. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS Correct. CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And when he came out of detention he was in a very bad state of health and he had to be taken first to a hospital in Port Elizabeth and then to Groote Schuur hospital. MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON And he was there for some months. MR ERASMUS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And that when he was released, he was a wheelchair case. MR ERASMUS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Is this the man - the man you considered so potentially dangerous as an activist that he should be killed - this invalid? MR ERASMUS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you find any arms and ammunition in any dead letter box established by Madaka? MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON But I thought that you told us that he was responsible for establishing them? MR ERASMUS That was the information provided to me. CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Well was ...[inaudible], did you find any that he was responsible for? MR ERASMUS CHAIRPERSON So you never verified to see if this was true or not but it was one of the factors you say you took into account in killing him. Is that the position Colonel? MR ERASMUS What was put to me - because I knew these people, I accepted as the truth. CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS That is correct, I assume so. CHAIRPERSON And I think as a matter of correction, it was in fact then that you said: "In all probability there was not sufficient evidence to charge him, it would lead to his release and the informer would then be killed", you were talking about Madaka when you talked about insufficient evidence. MR ERASMUS That is what I have said. CHAIRPERSON Just bear with me. ADV SANDI Mr Erasmus, who took the decision that the information or the evidence available was insufficient to secure a conviction against Madaka and Mthimkhulu? MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, we know what we have and this information is weighed up. ADV SANDI You did not seek the opinion of the Attorney General to see whether one could secure any conviction on the basis of that evidence? MR ERASMUS No, I did not Mr Chairman. ADV SANDI If I understand you clearly, that is to say that you were a judge as well as an executioner in your own case. MR ERASMUS You can call me that. ADV SANDI MR ERASMUS Mr Chairman, we considered all the options for example, a court case and this was the only solution we found. ADV SANDI When you took the decision that these two young men should be killed, in terms of what law were you acting? MR VISSER ADV SANDI I think we should get it from him. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS Yes, that is correct. ADV SANDI In the course of our evidence yesterday and today, you said you considered a number of options before you finally decided that the two should be killed. You mentioned detention as well as prosecution, are there any other options which you gave a thought? MR ERASMUS There were no other options, those were the only two options. ADV SANDI Did you not have powers in terms of the security laws of the country to keep these gentlemen in detention for as long as you like? MR ERASMUS At that stage Mr Chairman, I have already said we could not detain Mthimkhulu again. ADV SANDI MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman. ADV SANDI Just to get to the end, when you took the decision that the two gentlemen should be killed - when you started yesterday you told us a lot about your faith, you as a member of the NG Kerk, in terms of which principle of your faith were you taking such a decision? MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I object to this really because ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER But to put it in context, what he said was simply this, he said he was a church-goer and he never heard that his church ever expressed themselves against the principles of apartheid. That was the long and the short of all of that evidence Mr Chairman. ADV SANDI MR ERASMUS That is the normal procedure, yes. If the situation warrants it - if it was a normal situation, that would have been the case. ADV SANDI You stated repeatedly yesterday and today: "This was never reported to anyone". MR ERASMUS That is correct. ADV SANDI CHAIRPERSON MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER I have only have one re-exam - point in re-examination. Mr Erasmus, it is fair to say that your evidence indicates that you have tried to support the Government of the day, that was what you tried to do? MR ERASMUS That is correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Would you have assisted them by reporting back to them that you committed a murder? MR ERASMUS No, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED COMMITTEE ADJOURNS