amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1997-12-08 PORT ELIZABETH 1 RUBEN MARX 3521/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54792&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pe/2biko1.htm MR BOOYENS I call Mr Marx, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS I place on record that we ... (end of tape 4A) the record of the ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Please, I would like to hear what is being said here. Yes. MR BIZOS ... that the record of the inquest go in as an exhibit and that is a correct recording of the, of what was said there and that the affidavits that were filed in the inquest, were affidavits which were properly executed and were put before the inquest record and all that is a record of what was said at the inquest by the various participants, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Is that correct, Mr? MR BOOYENS Yes, I confirm that, Mr Chairman. Obviously, the inquest itself also contains contradictory views expressed by various pathologists and so on, so it is just that, it is, this is what people said at the inquest. MR BIZOS Yes. MR BOOYENS So, we do not ... (intervention). MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, could I ask that, for an admission of fact whilst Mr Siebert is here. I omitted to ask him, but I think it is a matter of record and I would like it on record that neither Mr Jones, as he has told us was charged, but nor was Mr Madibi Patrick Titi, whose affidavit is Exhibit G before the Commission, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Can I just take instructions, Mr Chairman ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Yes, please. MR BOOYENS ... then I will ... It is the statement by my learned friend is, indeed, factually correct. Neither Mr Jones nor Mr Titi was charged. MR BIZOS Yes and whilst we are dealing with these matters, before the next witness is called, Mr Chairman, we would like to ascertain whether the copies of Professor Loubscher's report, attached to it is a report by Professor N S F Proctor. I just, if you have it readily available, whether it is attached, because we would like it to be before the Commission as well. This is Exhibit D and whether Exhibit D is both Professor Proctor's and Professor Loubscher's report. This was an exhibit which was put in as a loose exhibit when we ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Was it? MR BIZOS ... sat in September, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON This is handed in as Exhibit D? MR BIZOS Yes. D and we want to know whether at the end of it there is a copy of Professor Proctors report, the last four pages, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON No, we do not have that. MR BOOYENS Neither have I, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON It does not form part of Exhibit D. MR BIZOS Not on yours either? CHAIRPERSON No. MR BIZOS Well, Mr Chairman, we would like to hand in a copy of Professor Proctor's report which was put in at the inquest, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Well, if you are going to hand in the inquest report as a whole, ... (intervention). MR BIZOS Yes. CHAIRPERSON ... do these not figure in that record? MR BIZOS I am not sure whether that is so or not, but can we check it and revert, I do not want to take any ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Yes, please. MR BIZOS ... more time up. CHAIRPERSON Please. MR BIZOS I am sorry. CHAIRPERSON Sort that out. Yes. Mr Marx, are you prepared to take the oath? RUBEN MARX (Duly sworn in, states). CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes. MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, could I perhaps just ask for a five minute adjournment. CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly. MR BOOYENS They are not going to hear Mr Marx's voice at the distance. Perhaps, the technical people can just help us to move the microphone ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly. MR BOOYENS ... closer to him please. HEARING ADJOURNS RUBEN MARX (Still under oath). EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS MR BOOYENS I am indebted to the Commission, Mr Chairman. I call Mr Ruben Marx. If I recall correctly, he has been sworn in. Mr Marx, can you hear me? MR MARX Yes, I can. MR BOOYENS Just speak into the microphone please. You are 75 years old. Is that correct? MR MARX That is, yes. MR BOOYENS And what disease or illness do you have? MR MARX I have emphysema, amnesia and lack of concentration. MR BOOYENS Just for clarity sake, Mr Marx, how long ago did you leave the police? MR MARX I retired in 1986, so it has been 11 years. MR BOOYENS You have your application in front of you? MR MARX Yes. MR BOOYENS Is there anything which you would like to add to page one? MR MARX No, everything is correct. MR BOOYENS Page two? MR MARX Everything is correct. MR BOOYENS Page three? MR MARX All correct. MR BOOYENS Page four? MR MARX Everything is fine there too. MR BOOYENS Let me put it to you like this, you have read through this document, we have worked through it? MR MARX That is correct yes. MR BOOYENS Are you satisfied that what is stated here, as far as you can recall, is correct? MR MARX Yes. MR BOOYENS So, what I am going to ask you, Mr Marx, is to tell us what happened on this day when Mr Biko was injured. Please tell us in your own words what you can recall of what happened that day. Let me ask you first, at that stage, you were already 55 years old? MR MARX Yes. MR BOOYENS Were you still in active service as a policeman? MR MARX I was semi-active. MR BOOYENS Please tell us what you can remember of what happened that day? MR MARX Colonel Goosen gave Niewoudt, myself instructions to help Siebert and Snyman with the investigation. Major Snyman instructed the three of us to go and fetch the deceased at the Walmer Police Station. It was about 09H30. When we arrived there, Captain Siebert asked Niewoudt to hand-cuff the man, that is now Mr Biko. When we arrived at the Sanlam building Major Snyman was in the office and he said take the hand-cuffs off. Must I continue? Anyway, the interrogation then started. It was not long before Mr Biko went and sat down on a chair and Captain Siebert then said, no, you are now in my office, here you will not sit, you will stand here and then some questions were put to him. I could see that the man was not really very keen for this interrogation. MR BOOYENS This man that you are referring to is Biko? MR MARX Yes. And I think, with all due respect, to Captain Siebert, his conduct was not quite the way I would have wanted to see it. The deceased, Mr Biko, did not like being told to get up when Siebert told him he must get up when you speak to me, you are in my office. I thought that I was simply superfluous there, I was, nothing that I could do, that I would leave and go and do some research and that when my turn came, that I could confront the man with something constructive. I would not ask him what I, things that I did not know about. So, I went to fetch Mr Biko's file. When I came back I heard Siebert speaking very loudly and I heard a scuffle and a noise in the office. I opened the door and I saw a scuffle going on. Well, my duty as a fellow policeman, Beneke was on the one side and Siebert was on the other and I grabbed hold of Biko round his body, round his waist and there was a scuffle and we were against the bars and the whole lot of us collapsed and he was lying on his stomach and after a while that he lay on his stomach Siebert said, Niewoudt and Beneke, pick him up. When they picked him up I saw that this man was a little bit stunned. Anyway, he sat for a while and I could see he was wiping his eyes. MR BOOYENS No, but hang on, where was he sitting, on the ground? MR MARX Yes, with his back leaning against the wall. He wiped his eyes and I thought, hang on, I thought he did not quite know where he was and then Captain Siebert said, men, pick him up and let us hand-cuff him to the grille. I did not do anything. They hand-cuffed him and that is when I thought, let me rather leave. I did not like the idea him being hand-cuffed to the metal grille and that was the last of it. I went to Colonel Goosen, I said please excuse me and he said to me carry on with your normal duties and that was my only involvement with the deceased, Bantu Biko. I may just mention that I had dealings with him in the past and I found him to be a very co-operative and courteous man. MR BOOYENS Mr Marx, on page six, you refer to the political objectives and why you, what you thought what was your work as security policeman. MR MARX The protection and maintaining of the National Party ... (intervention). MR BOOYENS No, you do not have to read, just listen to my question please. What did you think was your work as a security policeman? What did you have to do? MR MARX In the first place, to keep the Government of the day in place and to maintain law and order. MR BOOYENS Did you have any knowledge or did any people tell you about Mr Biko's activities and what his attitude was towards the Government? MR MARX I heard that he was the member, establishment member of the Black Peoples' Movement, he was an active member of the Black People's Convention. MR BOOYENS And according to what you understood, what was their relationship or attitude towards the Government? MR MARX They were anti-Government. MR BOOYENS What did they want to do with the Government? MR MARX The objectives of the Black Peoples' Convention were to bring the dispensation to a fall? MR BOOYENS That is the then Government? MR MARX Yes. MR BOOYENS And did you regard it as your duty as a security policeman to prevent this? MR MARX Yes. MR BOOYENS So, do you confirm everything that is in the statement? Did you read through it and are you satisfied with that? MR MARX I am. MR BOOYENS If the Commission would just bear with me. That is the evidence, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Any questions? MR ERASMUS No questions, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS MR BIZOS Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Marx, did you assault Mr Biko in any way? Did you assault Mr Biko in any way? MR MARX Not in the least, my Lord. MR BIZOS You can answer in Afrikaans if you like. MR MARX No, I did not assault him. MR BIZOS Do you feel that you did anything to have caused his death? MR MARX Caused his death, well, I was part of it. I do not how long the scuffle took place for, but my part in this whole matter was only two or three seconds. If I participated it was unfortunate, I fell with him, there was, it was not done on purpose. I just wanted to restrain him. MR BIZOS Did you do anything which you felt was wrong? MR MARX In what respect? MR BIZOS In connection with Mr Biko's death? MR MARX I did not see anything. When they hand-cuffed him to the iron grid I left. I said that I had had enough of this whole business. MR BIZOS You actually desiccated yourself from what Mr Siebert did? MR MARX Yes, I did, I did not want to associate myself with that. MR BIZOS Because you say that your experience with Mr Biko was that he was a quiet and civilised person. MR MARX I met him in '74 at St Anglican Farm, Waverley Hills. Lieutenant Marais and Warrant Officer Ferreira and I went to fetch four persons for Steve Biko, Mafuna and I cannot remember the other two. In any case, when we arrived there the people, I asked who is in charge here and this big man came out and said I am in charge. Please do ask them just to keep quiet that I can do my, I identified myself, please do ask them to keep quiet, I have got a job to be done here. He put his hands up and just as if you turned off an electrical switch, they were all quiet and I saw that this was a disciplined man. MR BIZOS What did you see Mr Siebert doing wrong in that office, Mr Marx? MR MARX I was there very seldom, I do not, I know, in the first place, he was sitting on the side and I was, if I was on the other side I would have asked him if he wanted some tea or to smoke or something, I would have created a good atmosphere so that one could have a starting point. It is of no use to tell the man to, just to stand up. Mr Siebert is hearing what I am saying, but this is my own personal opinion. One, I will not say that one would have won his trust, but one would have at least have had mutual respect for one another. MR BIZOS It seems to me, Mr Marx, that this is not the first time we meet, of course. You may remember we met before, but you are the old type policeman. MR MARX I do still remember that day, yes. MR BIZOS And you do not go about doing your police work like these ambitious young men did it? MR MARX Well, we are still of the older generation. You had to look after your work otherwise they would just have fired you. You could not just hit a person left and right. I worked in the Black areas and I am still here today. There is not an explosive situation which one cannot diffuse on a very diplomatic way. I worked in New Brighton, all over. MR BIZOS No, we understand fully, Mr Marx. Now, ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON You have said nice things about him, give him a chance to say nice things about you. MR BIZOS We will have a chat afterwards, Mr Chairman. Ja. Mr Marx, do you feel, if you feel that you have done nothing wrong, is it really for you, is it really necessary for you to apply for amnesty? MR MARX Frankly, I think it is not necessary. The only thing is I did it, because I was involved in that little struggle and in the skirmish, that is all. MR BIZOS Whose idea was it that you should apply for amnesty, Mr Marx? MR MARX Niewoudt. MR BIZOS Niewoudt? Well, he may have had reasons to apply for amnesty, but can you think of any reason why you should have applied for amnesty. MR MARX Well, I said to him the first night, man, I am not interested in applying for amnesty, because I am, in my heart, I am innocent. So, he said to me, man, listen, you testified at the inquest in Pretoria and what have I done, nothing. Mr Kenridge only asked me two questions, that is all. MR BIZOS Ja. CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos. MR BIZOS Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now, Mr Marx, we have heard from Mr Snyman and Mr Siebert that was a decision to tell an untruth about the date on which this happened, what do you know about that? MR MARX Yes, the Saturday after he had died I was off duty at my home and I was called in and Goosen told us, men, there, we have great problems. The Government, the present Government and the safety, security police, we are placing them in an embarrassing position, we will have to cover up this matter and then he said, we are not going to make it the sixth, those years I was 55 already, we are making it the seventh. Not the sixth, he did not go into the merits of the case, but I knew that a cover-up was being done here. MR BIZOS And did you go along with giving the wrong date in your affidavit, Mr Marx? MR MARX The only thing that I did wrong was that I said the seventh instead of the sixth, if I can recall correctly. Afterwards I heard about throwing chairs and I know nothing of that. I said that when I entered, at the inquest I heard that, and I said the same thing as I am saying here today. MR BIZOS And the, in so far as their are any differences between your affidavit and the evidence that you gave at the inquest, is what you said here today, that is the truth without any influence from anybody? MR MARX Yes. MR BIZOS And were you influenced such untruth as you might have told in your affidavit and at the inquest, were they influenced by what Colonel Goosen said? MR MARX Yes. MR BIZOS And when you came to give evidence were you, sort of, part of the pack that came to give evidence which was not entirely correct at the inquest? MR MARX Well, my conscience was clear apart from the fact that I mentioned the seventh instead of the sixth. MR BIZOS Yes. You never saw any throwing of chairs by Biko? MR MARX I beg yours. MR BIZOS You did not see any throwing of chairs by Biko? MR MARX No, they were struggling with one another. MR BIZOS And after he got up, you say that he was confused and you left the room? MR MARX After he had been hand-cuffed to the iron grid? MR BIZOS Ja, to the iron grid. MR MARX That is the last that I know of it. MR BIZOS Now, before he was hand-cuffed to the iron grid, did he show any aggression or anything like that? MR MARX No, I would not say that. He had, he was unconscious, he had no or not unconscious, he was drugged, he had no, stunned, he had no aggression left in him. MR BIZOS H was stunned? MR MARX Yes, he did not know where he was. When he wiped over his face, his eyes were focused on a specific point and that is when I said that, no, now he is coming to again and tie him up. MR BIZOS We know, Mr Marx, that he had two injuries on his lip and an injury above the eye. Did you see those injuries? MR MARX No, all that I can remember is that at the inquest I saw a bit of blood on his upper lip. MR BIZOS Did you not see that whilst he was on the ground? MR MARX No, I did not. If I had seen it I would have said so. MR BIZOS Ja. Tell me, was Mr Beneke at, part of the interrogation team of Biko? MR MARX No, I do not know how this came about, but when I left the office to do some research to see what I could find out, when I left the office to try and get some information so that I could ask the man something concrete and when I came back and the struggle was going on, then Beneke was present. He was not initially appointed as a member of the interrogation team. MR BIZOS Did you have anything to do with the interrogation of Mr Peter Jones? MR MARX I was in my office one evening and they spoke about things. I just popped in, but, personally, I did not ask him anything. There were too many young people and senior people who did most of the talking. MR BIZOS Who were the people who were interrogating Mr Jones? MR MARX Siebert was there, Deon was there. I do not know, I think the, I cannot remember the others. MR BIZOS Now, ... (intervention). MR MARX I was not in the office, I was just standing in the doorway. They left afterwards, I do not know where they went to, they had Mr Jones with them. MR BIZOS Snyman? MR MARX Yes, Snyman was there, that is true. MR BIZOS And Deon is Niewoudt? MR MARX Niewoudt was there for sure (end of tape 5A). MR BIZOS And Beneke? MR MARX I cannot remember seeing Beneke. MR BIZOS Now, did anybody throw any punches when you saw this thing going on in the room? MR MARX No, I did not see. I only saw or only arrived at the end of the story. I do not know how long they were fighting for or hitting one another. When I arrived there, the scuffle was just about over. MR BIZOS For how long were you out of the room when you came back? MR MARX About ten minutes. MR BIZOS And what time of the day was it that the scuffle actually took place? MR MARX Well, we arrived back at the office at about ten o' clock. So, it should have taken place at about quarter past ten. MR BIZOS And for how long was there, did the, how long did the interrogation last before you left them? MR MARX I would say that it was not even two minutes, because I was superfluous. It was no use all of us standing around there. Snyman was there, Siebert did the talking and Snyman took notes, so there was no need for me to be there. MR BIZOS So, ... (intervention). MR MARX I was, it was unnecessary for me to be there. MR BIZOS Ja and when you came back, Niewoudt was there, Beneke was there, Snyman was there ... (intervention). MR MARX Siebert was there. MR BIZOS ... and Siebert was there. Ja and did yon see a hose-pipe there? MR MARX Well, I can recollect one thing. It is not in my statement, because it has nothing to do with me, but I saw that Niewoudt hit him with a hose-pipe, but this is not in my statement. He must be responsible for his own deeds, but I saw him hitting the man with a hose-pipe. MR BIZOS At what stage did you see Mr Niewoudt hitting Mr Biko with the hose-pipe? MR MARX When Beneke and Siebert were scuffling with him, Niewoudt hit him across the back with the hose-pipe. MR BIZOS How many times? MR MARX It happened so quickly, I really would not know. From the door to where the scuffle was taking place, I do not know whether he could have hit him more than twice. The rooms is very small. When I came in I saw him hit him, but how many times he hit him, I would not know, because it is a matter of two to three metres. Now, how many times can one hit a person in such a small room? MR BIZOS So, you say in your presence he hit him twice? You do not know how many times before? MR MARX No, I do not know. MR BIZOS Tell us, what furniture was there in that room? MR MARX A table and two chairs and a steel cabinet. MR BIZOS And where would or would Niewoudt have got the hose-pipe from? MR MARX I would not know. MR BIZOS Was it kept in that room? MR MARX I would not know. MR BIZOS When you were there for the couple minutes, who was doing the interrogation? MR MARX Siebert. MR BIZOS And who else was present for the purposes of assisting him in the interrogation? MR MARX Siebert did the talking, Snyman was standing there with the clipboard and Niewoudt and I were just standing around. Then I left and left them alone. MR BIZOS And Beneke? MR MARX He was not there at that stage. MR BIZOS Where was Beneke at the time, do you know? MR MARX I do not know. He was not part of the interrogation team, but when I came in during that scuffle he was there. How he came in, when he came in, I would not know, but when I left he was not there. MR BIZOS Ja and when you saw Biko on the floor and wiping his eyes, did he, you say that he was, I will use the word, disorientated, I think, you understand, but anyway the translator ... (intervention). MR MARX Disorientated, that is right. MR BIZOS He did not know where he was? MR MARX He did not know where he was. MR BIZOS And did he try to get up? MR MARX No, Siebert said pick him up and they picked him up. MR BIZOS Who helped to pick him up? MR MARX Beneke and Niewoudt did. MR BIZOS And was he limp in the sort of way that they pick up a boxer who was knocked out? MR MARX I would say that he was not the same man that entered the room. He did not offer any resistance. I would not say he was a strong man, but he could stand up on his own if he had wanted to or if they had wanted him to. That is my humble opinion. MR BIZOS And did he put up any resistance at all when they hand-cuffed him to the grille? MR MARX No, no. MR BIZOS And just show us, please, how he put his, how they put his hands out on the grille. Just below shoulder, below shoulder, before, below shoulder height? MR MARX Yes. MR BIZOS Ja. Almost shoulder height against the grille? MR MARX Yes. MR BIZOS And ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Arms outstretched sideways or in front? Like this or like that? MR BIZOS Side ... (intervention). MR MARX Like this. MR BIZOS Sideways. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR BIZOS And his feet? MR MARX Sideways, yes. MR BIZOS And his feet, what did they do with his feet? MR MARX Shackled his feet with leg-irons on the crossbar, on the bottom crossbar. MR BIZOS And did they put the wire, the chain of the leg-irons into one of the irons of the grille door? MR MARX No, the bottom bar. MR BIZOS Say it in Afrikaans. MR MARX The bars come down and then there is a crossbar at the bottom and they put it around this and then tied him to this. MR BIZOS Did you ask why they were doing this? MR MARX I learnt to keep my mouth shut and not to get involved in things which had nothing to do with me. MR BIZOS Did anybody suggest that this person who looked like a person who had been knocked out or very, had become disorientated should get some medical attention? MR MARX There was no such suggestion at that stage when I was there. Those things were not mentioned. MR BIZOS Where were you when Mr Lang came the next day? MR MARX I was in an office right at the back. I wanted nothing more to do with the thing. I saw him walking down the passage, but I was not in the office where he was and I did not know whether, he was, whether he was in Colonel Goosen's office or where. MR BIZOS For how long was he kept pinned that way with the hand-cuffs and the leg-irons against the grille, Mr Marx? MR MARX I would not know, because I said that I was finished with it, I wanted nothing more to do with it. When I left, I wanted nothing more to do with it. MR BIZOS Did you, was he wearing any clothes whilst they were interrogating him? MR MARX He had clothes on when I saw him for the last time. MR BIZOS But whilst he was being interrogated, did he have clothes on? MR MARX He had clothes on. For the short period of time that I was there he did have clothes on. MR BIZOS And when he was pinned to the grille door? MR MARX Yes. MR BIZOS And do you know where he slept that night or did he remain on the grille until the next morning? MR MARX I do not know, I heard that he slept in the interrogation room. MR BIZOS Still pinned against the grille door or allowed to lie down? MR MARX To lie down. MR BIZOS Did you hear that he had wet his clothes and the blanket because he could not contain ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos, is there any real value in this evidence about what he heard? MR BIZOS With respect, there is, because I submit that this is a witness who is a little more forthright. CHAIRPERSON No, but I mean he is talking about what he might have heard and what he has not heard and so on. MR BIZOS Ja, well, what he heard may be of some importance as to whether the Committee has heard the whole truth from those who are less forthcoming, Mr Chairman. MR MARX Yes. MR BIZOS Because what was said on that floor may be very useful information as to what really happened, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you are trying to get that evidence from a witness who is trying his best to disassociate himself from what has happened and you are trying to extract as much as you can by asking him what he might have heard. MR BIZOS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now, I do not know whether you can take that very much further. MR BIZOS Well, let me just ask what knowledge, what discussions there were on the floor on the next morning, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please do. MR BIZOS Did you hear that a story was given out that Biko had had a stroke? MR MARX No, I know nothing about that. I wanted nothing further to do with the whole matter. After he had been hand-cuffed, it was the last I saw of him and it is not my way of doing things. MR BIZOS Did you still do your work in accordance with the standing orders at the time, that you were not to assault people, you were not to hand-cuff them or leg-iron them without good reason? MR MARX To the letter. MR BIZOS To the letter? MR MARX Yes. MR BIZOS And nobody, did anybody object to you behaving like a proper police officer? MR MARX No. I was not very popular that I did the work strictly according to the instructions. Goosen was very much opposed to this, but I said that I do not do things in this way, I do things in the correct way. I worked for 44 years and was never in any trouble, because I worked according to instructions. You had to stay within the lines if you did not want to have any trouble. MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, thank you, we have no further questions. Thank you, Mr Chairman, we have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mpshe. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE MR MPSHE Thank you, Mr Chairman. The mishandling of Biko by Goosen and others, you considered it to be very improper. MR MARX Please repeat your question, I do not follow it. A bit hard hearing. MR MPSHE I am saying the mishandling of Biko ... (intervention). MR MARX Yes. MR MPSHE ... by Goosen and others, you considered it to be very improper. MR MARX That is not the way in which I would have done, dealt with the matter. What somebody else does, that is their business. I do my work the way I know I should do it, the way others do it is their business. MR MPSHE Yip, but my question is did you consider their behaviour as improper, in your own opinion? MR MARX In a way, ja. I would not say, I will not say it, it is improper, but I would have offered him a chair and I would have cross-examined, interrogated him, in the very first place, in a nice, nice amiable way. CHAIRPERSON (...Indistinct) Mr Mpshe. MR MPSHE Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now, you made mention of the regulations, that you work according to the regulations and if you followed the regulations you will not get any problem. Do you remember that? MR MARX Yes. MR MPSHE Right. MR MARX That is quite right. MR MPSHE Good. Were these regulations known to Goosen and company as well? MR MARX It was known to everybody, but there were many who did not comply with them. MR MPSHE Was there any order or, direct or indirect, or an instruction that those regulations can be disregarded by certain people? MR MARX Well, I would say that standing orders and regulations, those are not your Bible and they are sometimes ignored. MR MPSHE Who said this? Perhaps I need to get your answer again. Did you say that it was said that you could ... (intervention). MR MARX No. MR BOOYENS ... ignore regulations, because they are not your Bible or what? MR MARX No. At a police station you could always refer to the police regulations or the Police Act and you read about that if you were uncertain about anything, but in the security police things were operated on a much looser footing. MR MPSHE Oh. Good. Now, in the security force, were they controlled by something different, could they do what they liked, was there an order allowing them to do that? MR MARX No, what they did behind my back is none of my concern. I kept my sheet clean. MR MPSHE Good, but you knew that what they were doing in the security force was not in accordance with the standing orders? MR MARX No, what I said is that if you are attached to a police station and you have standing orders and regulations in the Police Act and you have to act strictly according to those, but there is a certain measure of laxity in the security police. They did not, they were not quite as eager to look up the regulations and the standing orders. In fact, I am a little bit unhappy. MR MPSHE Finally, this laxity in the security force, the way in which they attended to people, mishandled people, in your own mind, do you think if the authorities had word about what they were doing, authorities would have approved. MR MARX Personally, I do not think so. MR MPSHE Good. Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens, any re-examination. MR BOOYENS No thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Marx, thank you very much. MR MARX Thank you. MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, this concludes as (...indistinct). CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BOOYENS This concludes as far as I intend going. Thank you. MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, may we hand you a copy, with the concurrence of our learned friend, of Professor Proctor's report which was attached to Professor Loubscher's report? CHAIRPERSON Yes, please do. MR BIZOS It can go in with a separate exhibit number, because it should actually have been clipped together. We can give it a new exhibit number if my learned, it is part of Exhibit D. MR BOOYENS Can I just have my copy as well? MR BIZOS Ja. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON By consent, the Proctor report can go in as an attachment to Exhibit D. CHAIRPERSON This might, you propose calling an applicant, do you not? MR ERASMUS Yes, Chairperson, I am planning to call Mr Beneke. It is nearly four o' clock. Maybe it is a convenient time to adjourn and to continue tomorrow. CHAIRPERSON Yes. May we resume at half past nine tomorrow morning? MR ERASMUS Half past nine would be in order, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens? MR BOOYENS Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos, I take it you have no objection? MR BIZOS No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Very well, todays proceedings have come to an end. MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, before we adjourn ... (intervention). MR MARX Yes. MR BOOYENS You have heard that, and subject to the Commission, so, Mr, the last witness as you have heard ... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Mr Marx. MR BOOYENS ... is, Mr Marx, is not a healthy man and he has asked me if he could possibly be excused. He finds it very tiring to spend a full day in court here. I will, once again, it is not necessary for my learned friend to ask me whether I will or will not take a point, I will not, if I ask for it. CHAIRPERSON Ja. Mr Marx, thank you very much. You are excused from further attendance. MR BOOYENS I will tell him. CHAIRPERSON Ja. Very well, we have come to the end of the day now. We will adjourn and resume at 09H30 tomorrow morning. HEARING ADJOURNS